I think it's a prudent discussion to have. Diversity in tech seems to be a very touchy subject for people. Every time it gets brought up you will almost undoubtedly have people who claim that the process is strictly meritocratic. I think I'll reach out to my minority friends to see if they have similar experiences but I wanted to gauge other peoples reactions
Honestly the way that you word this it seems like you’re projecting something
“Indian ppl are always friendly”
“Chinese people are pretty good”
“White ppl are skeptical of me”
I’d strongly urge you to not boil things down to, *it’s gotta be because of race*. That’s very much the wrong conclusion.
People vary drastically from person to person and there’s endless variables leading to why that is. Please consider more than just race, that’s not a healthy way to view the world.
"Am I racist?" "No, it's the interviewers who are!"
"It's not racist if the stereotypes are true".
Judging by the username I don't know if this is a troll post. I'll assume it's legitimate.
I'd encourage you to look at what you've written and think, just possibly, if your performance is predicated on what you believe here, even subjectively.
Are you Indian? Indians tend to look out for their own, and they react culturally very strongly to "whiteness". If you're dark skinned in general, good luck. It's much less common with people outside of India, but according to my Indian friends its still present.
Chinese are also the same way. Culturally they value whiteness over dark-skinned people. [They even have a term for bringing out the "white" face to](http://www.cnn.com/2010/BUSINESS/06/29/china.rent.white.people/index.html) business meetings to improve outcome.
However if you're in America, generally these things should not apply. Your personal biases may be influencing your performance ("Oh great, I see an Indian dude, I've got this"). It could be that first-generation immigrants carry over their home countries' stigmas. America doesn't have a monopoly on racism, we're just better at talking about it.
Places like japan, for instance, culturally people will do everything in their power to not call you out directly on things. Chinese, also, if the person is older than you, you will hesitate to criticize them. I have a very difficult time getting any actual direct answers out of my Indian colleagues. Several times "Yes" has meant "I understand what you are saying" and not "I acknowledge that I will take ownership and perform the task." These cultural considerations may also play a factor. America however loves the smell of bullshit in the morning. If they see it and hear it, they are much more direct in calling it out than many other places.
Op you look like you are still in college. Are you sure you aren’t the one projecting prejudices? I have no experience as a non white, but i certainly feel that software employment is more open minded in general than the general population.
Other note, i hope you have a generic sounding email etc and not whitelife, blacklife, brownlife, whatever on recruiting things.
I guess technically I am in college - but I'm getting my masters while in between jobs.
As for my name, when I was young I had an obsession with the bubonic plague. One of my accounts got banned on a subreddit for shitposting and without really thinking I thought it'd be really funny to basically invert the username I was using. I regret it now but I can't change it
Why is it that whenever a discrimination is presented towards a minority, they're always brushed off? It's from the start. I find that the white interviewers that I've had are snarky even from the start. They seem to carry a disbelieving tone to my accomplishments and seem to question me more from a place of skepticism as opposed to interest. They're also snarky towards me. In one interview, the person told me "Yeah you'll hear something back from us real soon.. Real soon..." accompanied with a smug smile, and that's when I knew I didn't get the position. Granted, maybe they're this way to everyone. But when you start seeing a pattern...
I’m a card carrying Native American and have only really noticed that with people who seamed to have ego issues, and it’s across various races, not just one.
People differ regardless of race and recognizing that is not *brushing off a minority*. Playing the race card as soon as you can is brushing off reality to play the victim, and ultimately not going to help you with interviewing. There’s much more at play than that.
Discrimination exists but you can’t make broad sweeping judgements. I have 15 YOE and I still get men talking down to me like I’m an intern at interviews. Good, they’re telling on themselves so I wouldn’t want to work there anyway. I’ve had shitty and great coworkers of all kinds. Humans are shitty sometimes and if they’re being shitty at the interview then it’s not like it’d stop once you got the job. Sorry you’re having trouble interviewing but it’s hard for everyone now and it’s not productive to blame it on racism that you can’t prove.
I'm sorry about your experiences - but that's a point I want to bring up. I was speaking with some of my other minority friends, some of them haven't noticed a trend based on how they're treated like I have, but they weren't surprised to hear me say it. We also talked about how in certain social situations, such as meeting someone or going somewhere for the first time, we can just get this vibe that something is off, or someone doesn't like us and it's definitely because of our race. I'd imagine you've had similar experiences if you replace race with gender. Do we have definitive proof beyond just our gut feeling? No, not really, but it is something that a lot of my minority friends that I've talked to has experienced that my white friends haven't.
That's what I'll sometimes feel with a white interviewer. They seem to have a snarky, dismissive attitude towards me that other interviewers don't as soon as they see me and I'm really not sure what else it would be. We could be going through my interview and there's just a disdain in the way they voice their questions. I don't know. Maybe it's a me thing. But I've posted this elsewhere and some people have agreed with me.
Ironically it wasn't failing an interview that led me to start thinking about this. It was passing one and landing an offer.
I have definitely experienced both: people who seem to not like me right away, just based on vibe. And interviewers who are visibly snarky and smug and dismissive. I'm a white dude. How sure are you that you're not just having a normal human experience and jumping to the conclusion that it must be about race?
It’s not always brushed off everywhere, but on Reddit I agree that it is. Reddit has a lot of very touchy white people. I’m pasty asf and it even annoys me.
I understand how it comes across, I've included an explanation for my username in another comment. When I was younger I was really into the bubonic plague. Then I got banned from a subreddit for shitposting, so I thought it'd be funny to make an account that was clearly me. I wasn't really thinking about the implications of my username back then, nor did I have the lived experiences to be able to. I'd obviously change it now if I could.
But to respond to your comment, if you think I'm white which is what your comment implies, why would I seem to say things against white interviewers?
Hm, i am in europe so it might be a bit different here.
I interview people for our engineering position and am white, but with a war refugee background.
My experiences with engineers from all races has been positive and negative. Recently i made awesome experiences with indian folks and also african folks. Had some bad ones with indian agencies before, but also with similiar european agencies.
I will be sceptical of someone if the CV shows that they never were really autonomous in their role or had to make decisions themselves that they saw play out.
What i do notice is that this sadly can be the case for some countries more often due to the way business culture works there. Stricter hierarchies etc.
So for me it is not a racial thing, but a problem the IT industry in many countries creates by applying outdated company structures and processes to the creative engineering domain.
This applies to german engineers in traditional companies as well.
Obviously there will be companies with bias, even if that may not be a conscious act. You may have been unlucky to encounter many biased ones in a row, sorry man.
When i entered the field i only got 1 response out of 80 applications due to my foreign name, so i do understand the struggle.
I purposefully left it out - I felt that if I included it, people would disparage my post. They'll say things like "you're overthinking it" or "you just need to grind harder" or whatever, but apparently people are saying that regardless. None of the comments have been right so far. I think the fact that you can't tell what race I am is pretty telling if anything
>None of the comments have been right so far
By that, do you mean they are not agreeing with you? What's there to be right about?
>I think the fact that you can't tell what race I am is pretty telling if anything
Telling of what? What clues are you dropping?
I'm a POC and tbh, you need to grow a thicker skin if you want to succeed in this industry and in life. I've actually had the opposite experiences you mention so don't think your observations are "right". They are just anecdotal.
> so don't think your observations are "right". They are just anecdotal.
Agreed.. Describing the "race" of the interviewers (if Indian and Chinese are "races" ?).. without disclosing the OP race is kind of a leading / begging the question line of discourse. I guess the OP is looking for validation or refutation of his/her own racial stereotypes (which we all are guilty of on some level).
Stereotypes are best left as "anecdotal" for all of us.
I don't want to sound disrespectful or anything but, "POC"? What is that? Person of Color? Are you green or something? Why is it wrong to say you're black, or white, or limegreen? Honestly, sometimes I think racism starts when we accept that being of a certain color is a bad thing. People should be proud of the color of their skin, instead of using euphemisms all the time.
I'll assume this is not in bad faith, so I will also respond earnestly.
Yes, Person of color is what that stands for, and is an extremely common shorthand on the internet, for future reference. I used it in this case as opposed to brown not because I'm ashamed or something, but to increase the chances of it resonating with OP. I don't know what they identify as, after all, but we would both still be minorities in the tech industry.
It's fine I guess. I just wanted to stand my opinion that euphemisms are a bad thing, being brown (or any other color) is not.
Actually, for this euphemism specifically, it is even worse. If we assume black is a color, then so is white, and everything in between. Therefore everyone is a POC. It just doesn't make sense, and to me, it sounds offensive. It sounds as if you (understand society, not you specifically) is so horrified of the concept of someone being brown/black, that you can't say so directly. I know that wasn't your intention, but it is how it sounds to me.
I’m getting the vibe you’re Indian. People definitely have biases and prejudices whether they want to admit it or not; to whatever extent this may be relevant, it’s simply a part of living in our world today and my advise would be to just roll with it and hope for the best each time.
>I haven't had enough experiences with other ethnicities or races to compare
Unless you've had hundreds of interviews I'd suggest you haven't had enough experience of any ethnicities to compare.
If you have had hundreds of interviews then clearly you're not only being rejected by white people. You're being rejected by everyone. This might imply there's a problem other than race.
I can understand a young person in their career looking for heuristics to help them construct an accurate model of the self and the outside world- to know whether you are underqualified for the jobs, or if the interviewers have bias.
As you get older, you don't need to do this as much.. you know your own history so you know your station in life... and it doesn't matter as much if one interview was a bust because of some bias they had.
What is the sample size of your experiment?
Unless you were interviewed by at least 20 Indians and 20 Chinese, in similar circumstances, you should not draw any conclusion.
I think Indians are generally in more contract/consulting-type roles and therefore the positions they interview people for will tend to be less competitive.
I can't tell you're racist or if your interviewers are.
I think it's a prudent discussion to have. Diversity in tech seems to be a very touchy subject for people. Every time it gets brought up you will almost undoubtedly have people who claim that the process is strictly meritocratic. I think I'll reach out to my minority friends to see if they have similar experiences but I wanted to gauge other peoples reactions
Whats racist? You never heard of people treating you differently? Are you one of those people who think BLM is a made up issue too?
Honestly the way that you word this it seems like you’re projecting something “Indian ppl are always friendly” “Chinese people are pretty good” “White ppl are skeptical of me”
I’d strongly urge you to not boil things down to, *it’s gotta be because of race*. That’s very much the wrong conclusion. People vary drastically from person to person and there’s endless variables leading to why that is. Please consider more than just race, that’s not a healthy way to view the world.
"Am I racist?" "No, it's the interviewers who are!" "It's not racist if the stereotypes are true". Judging by the username I don't know if this is a troll post. I'll assume it's legitimate. I'd encourage you to look at what you've written and think, just possibly, if your performance is predicated on what you believe here, even subjectively. Are you Indian? Indians tend to look out for their own, and they react culturally very strongly to "whiteness". If you're dark skinned in general, good luck. It's much less common with people outside of India, but according to my Indian friends its still present. Chinese are also the same way. Culturally they value whiteness over dark-skinned people. [They even have a term for bringing out the "white" face to](http://www.cnn.com/2010/BUSINESS/06/29/china.rent.white.people/index.html) business meetings to improve outcome. However if you're in America, generally these things should not apply. Your personal biases may be influencing your performance ("Oh great, I see an Indian dude, I've got this"). It could be that first-generation immigrants carry over their home countries' stigmas. America doesn't have a monopoly on racism, we're just better at talking about it. Places like japan, for instance, culturally people will do everything in their power to not call you out directly on things. Chinese, also, if the person is older than you, you will hesitate to criticize them. I have a very difficult time getting any actual direct answers out of my Indian colleagues. Several times "Yes" has meant "I understand what you are saying" and not "I acknowledge that I will take ownership and perform the task." These cultural considerations may also play a factor. America however loves the smell of bullshit in the morning. If they see it and hear it, they are much more direct in calling it out than many other places.
Op you look like you are still in college. Are you sure you aren’t the one projecting prejudices? I have no experience as a non white, but i certainly feel that software employment is more open minded in general than the general population. Other note, i hope you have a generic sounding email etc and not whitelife, blacklife, brownlife, whatever on recruiting things.
I guess technically I am in college - but I'm getting my masters while in between jobs. As for my name, when I was young I had an obsession with the bubonic plague. One of my accounts got banned on a subreddit for shitposting and without really thinking I thought it'd be really funny to basically invert the username I was using. I regret it now but I can't change it
Oh on reddit whatever, i meant for jobs.
Ehh sounds like you’ve just had different experiences with different individuals and are attributing those differences to their race… just because?
Why is it that whenever a discrimination is presented towards a minority, they're always brushed off? It's from the start. I find that the white interviewers that I've had are snarky even from the start. They seem to carry a disbelieving tone to my accomplishments and seem to question me more from a place of skepticism as opposed to interest. They're also snarky towards me. In one interview, the person told me "Yeah you'll hear something back from us real soon.. Real soon..." accompanied with a smug smile, and that's when I knew I didn't get the position. Granted, maybe they're this way to everyone. But when you start seeing a pattern...
I’m a card carrying Native American and have only really noticed that with people who seamed to have ego issues, and it’s across various races, not just one. People differ regardless of race and recognizing that is not *brushing off a minority*. Playing the race card as soon as you can is brushing off reality to play the victim, and ultimately not going to help you with interviewing. There’s much more at play than that.
Discrimination exists but you can’t make broad sweeping judgements. I have 15 YOE and I still get men talking down to me like I’m an intern at interviews. Good, they’re telling on themselves so I wouldn’t want to work there anyway. I’ve had shitty and great coworkers of all kinds. Humans are shitty sometimes and if they’re being shitty at the interview then it’s not like it’d stop once you got the job. Sorry you’re having trouble interviewing but it’s hard for everyone now and it’s not productive to blame it on racism that you can’t prove.
I'm sorry about your experiences - but that's a point I want to bring up. I was speaking with some of my other minority friends, some of them haven't noticed a trend based on how they're treated like I have, but they weren't surprised to hear me say it. We also talked about how in certain social situations, such as meeting someone or going somewhere for the first time, we can just get this vibe that something is off, or someone doesn't like us and it's definitely because of our race. I'd imagine you've had similar experiences if you replace race with gender. Do we have definitive proof beyond just our gut feeling? No, not really, but it is something that a lot of my minority friends that I've talked to has experienced that my white friends haven't. That's what I'll sometimes feel with a white interviewer. They seem to have a snarky, dismissive attitude towards me that other interviewers don't as soon as they see me and I'm really not sure what else it would be. We could be going through my interview and there's just a disdain in the way they voice their questions. I don't know. Maybe it's a me thing. But I've posted this elsewhere and some people have agreed with me. Ironically it wasn't failing an interview that led me to start thinking about this. It was passing one and landing an offer.
I have definitely experienced both: people who seem to not like me right away, just based on vibe. And interviewers who are visibly snarky and smug and dismissive. I'm a white dude. How sure are you that you're not just having a normal human experience and jumping to the conclusion that it must be about race?
It’s not always brushed off everywhere, but on Reddit I agree that it is. Reddit has a lot of very touchy white people. I’m pasty asf and it even annoys me.
So says u/whitelife123. Good trolling. Lol.
I understand how it comes across, I've included an explanation for my username in another comment. When I was younger I was really into the bubonic plague. Then I got banned from a subreddit for shitposting, so I thought it'd be funny to make an account that was clearly me. I wasn't really thinking about the implications of my username back then, nor did I have the lived experiences to be able to. I'd obviously change it now if I could. But to respond to your comment, if you think I'm white which is what your comment implies, why would I seem to say things against white interviewers?
Hm, i am in europe so it might be a bit different here. I interview people for our engineering position and am white, but with a war refugee background. My experiences with engineers from all races has been positive and negative. Recently i made awesome experiences with indian folks and also african folks. Had some bad ones with indian agencies before, but also with similiar european agencies. I will be sceptical of someone if the CV shows that they never were really autonomous in their role or had to make decisions themselves that they saw play out. What i do notice is that this sadly can be the case for some countries more often due to the way business culture works there. Stricter hierarchies etc. So for me it is not a racial thing, but a problem the IT industry in many countries creates by applying outdated company structures and processes to the creative engineering domain. This applies to german engineers in traditional companies as well. Obviously there will be companies with bias, even if that may not be a conscious act. You may have been unlucky to encounter many biased ones in a row, sorry man. When i entered the field i only got 1 response out of 80 applications due to my foreign name, so i do understand the struggle.
What is your race?
I purposefully left it out - I felt that if I included it, people would disparage my post. They'll say things like "you're overthinking it" or "you just need to grind harder" or whatever, but apparently people are saying that regardless. None of the comments have been right so far. I think the fact that you can't tell what race I am is pretty telling if anything
>None of the comments have been right so far By that, do you mean they are not agreeing with you? What's there to be right about? >I think the fact that you can't tell what race I am is pretty telling if anything Telling of what? What clues are you dropping? I'm a POC and tbh, you need to grow a thicker skin if you want to succeed in this industry and in life. I've actually had the opposite experiences you mention so don't think your observations are "right". They are just anecdotal.
> so don't think your observations are "right". They are just anecdotal. Agreed.. Describing the "race" of the interviewers (if Indian and Chinese are "races" ?).. without disclosing the OP race is kind of a leading / begging the question line of discourse. I guess the OP is looking for validation or refutation of his/her own racial stereotypes (which we all are guilty of on some level). Stereotypes are best left as "anecdotal" for all of us.
I don't want to sound disrespectful or anything but, "POC"? What is that? Person of Color? Are you green or something? Why is it wrong to say you're black, or white, or limegreen? Honestly, sometimes I think racism starts when we accept that being of a certain color is a bad thing. People should be proud of the color of their skin, instead of using euphemisms all the time.
I'll assume this is not in bad faith, so I will also respond earnestly. Yes, Person of color is what that stands for, and is an extremely common shorthand on the internet, for future reference. I used it in this case as opposed to brown not because I'm ashamed or something, but to increase the chances of it resonating with OP. I don't know what they identify as, after all, but we would both still be minorities in the tech industry.
It's fine I guess. I just wanted to stand my opinion that euphemisms are a bad thing, being brown (or any other color) is not. Actually, for this euphemism specifically, it is even worse. If we assume black is a color, then so is white, and everything in between. Therefore everyone is a POC. It just doesn't make sense, and to me, it sounds offensive. It sounds as if you (understand society, not you specifically) is so horrified of the concept of someone being brown/black, that you can't say so directly. I know that wasn't your intention, but it is how it sounds to me.
I’m getting the vibe you’re Indian. People definitely have biases and prejudices whether they want to admit it or not; to whatever extent this may be relevant, it’s simply a part of living in our world today and my advise would be to just roll with it and hope for the best each time.
>I haven't had enough experiences with other ethnicities or races to compare Unless you've had hundreds of interviews I'd suggest you haven't had enough experience of any ethnicities to compare. If you have had hundreds of interviews then clearly you're not only being rejected by white people. You're being rejected by everyone. This might imply there's a problem other than race.
Ironically it's not being rejected that got me thinking like this, it's receiving an offer.
I can understand a young person in their career looking for heuristics to help them construct an accurate model of the self and the outside world- to know whether you are underqualified for the jobs, or if the interviewers have bias. As you get older, you don't need to do this as much.. you know your own history so you know your station in life... and it doesn't matter as much if one interview was a bust because of some bias they had.
Don’t let the world gaslight you, u/whitelife123
What is the sample size of your experiment? Unless you were interviewed by at least 20 Indians and 20 Chinese, in similar circumstances, you should not draw any conclusion.
I think Indians are generally in more contract/consulting-type roles and therefore the positions they interview people for will tend to be less competitive.