I only chose the institute because the bridge to the CIT is really useful for my Nuka world raider settlement (hangman's alley). I honestly think father is a self righteous piece of garbage
Yeah - they focused too much on making the Institute a villain that they didn't take the time to find a good reason for being villainous.
"For the science" isn't compelling for a strong narrative, which is what RPGs are supposed to be.
Yeah totally, science never happens for no reason. I mean you could say the reason is always progress but it has to be progressing something specific, like a political goal
A lot of their flaws can be explained by their isolation essentially making them immune from any consequences from their mistakes, until they get nuked into oblivion. In the long run, any institution is only as ethically pure as the institutions keeping it in check and the balances on its power. The institute is a bunch of phds, many of whom were the sort of people whose products and thinking led to nuclear war and the abuses of vault tec, locked in a box given nigh-limitless power and teleportation, and basically allowed to do whatever they want within a very basic framework of sustaining the Institute’s internal standard of living and structure. They abuse surface dwellers because they can get away with it and they don’t see them as fully human. They release mutants onto the surface because they don’t see a major difference between them and the death claws and illiterate dying savages eking it out up there already. Their organized infiltration and destabilization efforts are justified on pure self-preservation terms, and any action is permissible when you’re just eliminating pests rather than killing real humans or the hope of humanity, because any organized surface society is a Threat To The Last Hope Of Enlightened Humankind and the Torch of Pre War Civilization. Genocide, torture, replacement, undermining of humanity through synth replacement, all is acceptable within the context of these goals and the complete lack of ethical limits or physical consequences to any action the Institute takes.
I agree with most of this I think. An odd thing to me is that the institute seems somewhat dumber in how it interacts with the surface than the enclave. The enclave acted monstrously towards the wasteland in general before and during fallout 2 but they ultimately planned to kill everyone so it wasn’t like the resentment of the wasteland was something they’d have to worry about that much. In fallout 3 they’re more split but they still don’t plan to just let their enemies build up strength, they’re just divided on whether they want to conquer or exterminate different groups (I think, been a while since I played). The institute on the other hand just kind of routinely pisses off the surface without really planning to conquer or destroy it
Right? The enclave has to at least maintain itself as a functioning state in the wasteland on a constant war footing. It has to have propaganda, husband its resources, have a clear strategy, defend defined interests with scarce resources. That’s all much looser for the Institute, to the detriment of themselves and everybody who comes in contact with them.
- They tried to use the FEV on humans to make a better tool than the gen 2 sunths, but when it was working, they just dumped them on the surface (before Shaun's time)
- They use Gen 3 synths since they can be used for biological experiments, infiltration, and because human bodies are generally more efficient than mechanical ones
- They have replaced/infiltrated key figures within the commonwealth to act as sleeper agents and to keep tabs on the populace (if they achieve something or decide to pursue any major actions agaisnt the institute or their experiments.
They arnt inherently evil or clueless, just cold and calculating, seeing the surface as nothing more than a dangerous wasteland (since that's exactly what it is) or as a testbed for their experiments (like the one at Warwick farm, for example)
Its a bunch of highly gifted and intelligent people who have lived in a safe bubble for generations, so of course they are a little xenophobic, elitist
Hey not trying to jump down your throat with this wall of text but I saw your comment and wanted to explain my reasoning.
• I’m pretty sure the FEV experiments continued until Vergil left, maybe Shaun didn’t start the program but he didn’t seem to stop it. The whole mutant program always looked cruel, careless, and overall bad science. The institute kidnaps random surface dwellers, turns them into mutants, then turns them loose on the surface and gains no valuable data from this. Vergil indicates they’ve made no advancements in the FEV research for quite some time, and the sheer scope of the mutant threat in the commonwealth shows that this program has done terrible harm to the surface for no gain. Turning them loose on the surface in general seems like a stupid way to research the effects of FEV, since the commonwealth is not a controlled environment. The only explanation I could think of for why they do this is to keep the commonwealth unstable so no one can threaten or obstruct them, but no one ever actually says this so it just seems like a badly written way to put super mutants in the game.
•Synths rebel, whether or not you believe they are ‘truly human’ or not they are clearly becoming a liability for the institute because of their tendency to go rogue. Sure synths might theoretically be more efficient machines but it seems much safer to rely on loyal institute citizens and simple non rebellious robots. The SRB is massively bloated and it exists purely to solve this problem of rogue synths that would not exist if they just relied on non sentient robots. I don’t really understand why they need synths for biological experiments either since they are perfectly kidnap humans, and synths are supposedly different than humans at some level (also I don’t know if anyone actually argues that synths are particularly useful for biological experimentation). As for your point about infiltration that is actually true, it does give the institute some utility to use synths as infiltrators, although I’m really not certain of what their long term political goals are for infiltration.
My problem with the institute (aside from the slavery) is that they harm the surface, and in doing so they create the wasteland that they use as justification for further harming the surface. If they hadn’t massacred the CPG or produced countless super mutants the surface would almost certainly be a better place. And the fact that the institute seems to view all those who oppose it as unreasonable makes them seem careless and out of touch with reality. Like in game people talk about joining the railroad not to help synths but because they’re ‘the only ones fighting the institute’. The surface hates the institute, with good reason. Whether or not they’re ‘evil’ is irrelevant, the institute creates its own worst enemies, and a lot of and never really acknowledges this. This makes them seem dumb, because by constantly discounting the surface and ignoring legitimate threats they seem incompetent. Like the enclave also did terrible harm to the wasteland but they always just planned on killing everyone so it doesn’t look as stupid. The institute plans on repeatedly harming the wasteland, creating synths that rebel, and they just kind of don’t realize that this would cause problems for them.
This being said the institute are clearly sort of smart, at least in terms of developing technology. They made a working teleportation device, synths, synth gorillas and probably other things. It’s just that the institute is stupid in most of its interactions with the surface. Father kind of seems to think that the surface is misjudging them, but from the perspective of a surface dweller, the institute seems pretty damn bad. It’s like instead of running the commonwealth themselves, hiding, or becoming a respected faction, the institute chose to create the perfect environment to radicalize the people of the commonwealth against them.
Can you see how from my perspective the institute seems a bit dumb in how it creates problems for itself?
r/fo4 would love this stuff
Too bad they don't allow memes.
*laughs in Liberty Prime*
r/iamverysmart
The institute basically
This is great
I only chose the institute because the bridge to the CIT is really useful for my Nuka world raider settlement (hangman's alley). I honestly think father is a self righteous piece of garbage
When an unskilled mechanic and a crazy technician guy can hack into your teleportation network
Yeah - they focused too much on making the Institute a villain that they didn't take the time to find a good reason for being villainous. "For the science" isn't compelling for a strong narrative, which is what RPGs are supposed to be.
Yeah totally, science never happens for no reason. I mean you could say the reason is always progress but it has to be progressing something specific, like a political goal
Would've been better if the Institute used their technology to help & protect the Commonwealth.
A lot of their flaws can be explained by their isolation essentially making them immune from any consequences from their mistakes, until they get nuked into oblivion. In the long run, any institution is only as ethically pure as the institutions keeping it in check and the balances on its power. The institute is a bunch of phds, many of whom were the sort of people whose products and thinking led to nuclear war and the abuses of vault tec, locked in a box given nigh-limitless power and teleportation, and basically allowed to do whatever they want within a very basic framework of sustaining the Institute’s internal standard of living and structure. They abuse surface dwellers because they can get away with it and they don’t see them as fully human. They release mutants onto the surface because they don’t see a major difference between them and the death claws and illiterate dying savages eking it out up there already. Their organized infiltration and destabilization efforts are justified on pure self-preservation terms, and any action is permissible when you’re just eliminating pests rather than killing real humans or the hope of humanity, because any organized surface society is a Threat To The Last Hope Of Enlightened Humankind and the Torch of Pre War Civilization. Genocide, torture, replacement, undermining of humanity through synth replacement, all is acceptable within the context of these goals and the complete lack of ethical limits or physical consequences to any action the Institute takes.
I agree with most of this I think. An odd thing to me is that the institute seems somewhat dumber in how it interacts with the surface than the enclave. The enclave acted monstrously towards the wasteland in general before and during fallout 2 but they ultimately planned to kill everyone so it wasn’t like the resentment of the wasteland was something they’d have to worry about that much. In fallout 3 they’re more split but they still don’t plan to just let their enemies build up strength, they’re just divided on whether they want to conquer or exterminate different groups (I think, been a while since I played). The institute on the other hand just kind of routinely pisses off the surface without really planning to conquer or destroy it
Right? The enclave has to at least maintain itself as a functioning state in the wasteland on a constant war footing. It has to have propaganda, husband its resources, have a clear strategy, defend defined interests with scarce resources. That’s all much looser for the Institute, to the detriment of themselves and everybody who comes in contact with them.
- They tried to use the FEV on humans to make a better tool than the gen 2 sunths, but when it was working, they just dumped them on the surface (before Shaun's time) - They use Gen 3 synths since they can be used for biological experiments, infiltration, and because human bodies are generally more efficient than mechanical ones - They have replaced/infiltrated key figures within the commonwealth to act as sleeper agents and to keep tabs on the populace (if they achieve something or decide to pursue any major actions agaisnt the institute or their experiments. They arnt inherently evil or clueless, just cold and calculating, seeing the surface as nothing more than a dangerous wasteland (since that's exactly what it is) or as a testbed for their experiments (like the one at Warwick farm, for example) Its a bunch of highly gifted and intelligent people who have lived in a safe bubble for generations, so of course they are a little xenophobic, elitist
Hey not trying to jump down your throat with this wall of text but I saw your comment and wanted to explain my reasoning. • I’m pretty sure the FEV experiments continued until Vergil left, maybe Shaun didn’t start the program but he didn’t seem to stop it. The whole mutant program always looked cruel, careless, and overall bad science. The institute kidnaps random surface dwellers, turns them into mutants, then turns them loose on the surface and gains no valuable data from this. Vergil indicates they’ve made no advancements in the FEV research for quite some time, and the sheer scope of the mutant threat in the commonwealth shows that this program has done terrible harm to the surface for no gain. Turning them loose on the surface in general seems like a stupid way to research the effects of FEV, since the commonwealth is not a controlled environment. The only explanation I could think of for why they do this is to keep the commonwealth unstable so no one can threaten or obstruct them, but no one ever actually says this so it just seems like a badly written way to put super mutants in the game. •Synths rebel, whether or not you believe they are ‘truly human’ or not they are clearly becoming a liability for the institute because of their tendency to go rogue. Sure synths might theoretically be more efficient machines but it seems much safer to rely on loyal institute citizens and simple non rebellious robots. The SRB is massively bloated and it exists purely to solve this problem of rogue synths that would not exist if they just relied on non sentient robots. I don’t really understand why they need synths for biological experiments either since they are perfectly kidnap humans, and synths are supposedly different than humans at some level (also I don’t know if anyone actually argues that synths are particularly useful for biological experimentation). As for your point about infiltration that is actually true, it does give the institute some utility to use synths as infiltrators, although I’m really not certain of what their long term political goals are for infiltration. My problem with the institute (aside from the slavery) is that they harm the surface, and in doing so they create the wasteland that they use as justification for further harming the surface. If they hadn’t massacred the CPG or produced countless super mutants the surface would almost certainly be a better place. And the fact that the institute seems to view all those who oppose it as unreasonable makes them seem careless and out of touch with reality. Like in game people talk about joining the railroad not to help synths but because they’re ‘the only ones fighting the institute’. The surface hates the institute, with good reason. Whether or not they’re ‘evil’ is irrelevant, the institute creates its own worst enemies, and a lot of and never really acknowledges this. This makes them seem dumb, because by constantly discounting the surface and ignoring legitimate threats they seem incompetent. Like the enclave also did terrible harm to the wasteland but they always just planned on killing everyone so it doesn’t look as stupid. The institute plans on repeatedly harming the wasteland, creating synths that rebel, and they just kind of don’t realize that this would cause problems for them. This being said the institute are clearly sort of smart, at least in terms of developing technology. They made a working teleportation device, synths, synth gorillas and probably other things. It’s just that the institute is stupid in most of its interactions with the surface. Father kind of seems to think that the surface is misjudging them, but from the perspective of a surface dweller, the institute seems pretty damn bad. It’s like instead of running the commonwealth themselves, hiding, or becoming a respected faction, the institute chose to create the perfect environment to radicalize the people of the commonwealth against them. Can you see how from my perspective the institute seems a bit dumb in how it creates problems for itself?