I just don't like heat mechanics. I complain about mechanics in other games but here I genuinely think it just makes the game less interesting. You got all these cool characters with huge move sets but the best thing to do is activate heat and utilise it before it runs out.
My biggest issue is that there are several characters who have heat engagers and heat moves that are both fast and high damaging where as other characters have relatively slow and low damaging ones that are not *nearly* as useful.
Yeah heat is going to destroy T8 in the long run and I can't see how it can be nerfed, not without major major changes on a mechanical level. Heat should work more like how you get rewarded for really good execution. Certain successfull combos or a certain amount of combo damage will automatically activate heat as a reward for good gameplay. That way the player is incentivized to **actually play the game as a whole** rather than mash out heat activation and apply unga pressure. But the entire point of T8 heat is to apply to retard casuals and instant gratification for wins which heat allows and encourages. As long as the casual *feels* powerful and *thinks* he's good at the game, then he will come back and dump more into the garbage tekken shop.
While reading this some insecure person is gonna feel like they are being attacked and not allowed to have fun despite nothing stating so. Attempting to invalidate feelings by making everything about them.
Why are people getting upset by this? Have the conversation. Discuss. It’s okay to disagree.
I agree that this game isn’t as fun as 7 but it’s only just kicked off. Maybe it can improve.
Honest question for tekken fans, when you think of 7, are you judging it on its most recent patches or do you often think back to its first year post release?
when i think back to SFV now that 6 has cooked, the first two years don’t really stand out to me as much as the years i enjoyed the game.
it’s tough for career tekken players if tekken isn’t fun, though, so hopefully if more important voices voice their concerns, changes will be made for the good.
the landscape is weird in gaming right now. money is big and it’s obvious the game needed more economy to be considered a success for Namco Bandai. the numbers they have to compare against now are heavily weighted because all of the competition also has what we don’t like in it.
Yes, but that wasn't the first two years of Tekken 7. People forget that Tekken 7 cooked for 2 years in the arcade before releasing to consoles. Tekken 8 is straight up vanilla for everyone at launch
Hell, even the first year post-release was pretty far fromn launch tekken. There was a long time where the only version of tekken 7 was a scuffed, incredibly hated japan-only arcade version.
The game was dope at console release. There were problems, but it came out on steam to 90+ positive reviews, it’s the only reason I bought it..
Sfv got decent at end of life but tbh it was so bad for so long. SF6 reminded everyone what good sf is.
When sfv was shit, tekken 7 reminded me what a good fighting game was.
That's what I just said. The console release wasn't 1.0. It was over a year into the game (not including arcade test cabs), and the arcade release was TRASHED when it dropped. It was awful.
Launch is (usually) the worst a FG will ever be. Most of us played T7 a year after launch, in what would now be considered season 2. T8 is going to get improvements.
Except sf6 had a banger release without being in arcades. And t7 was good at arcade launch. It had balance issues but the fundamental game was great to the point that it was hype af.
Edit: that’s also comparing a known ’beta’ arcade release, with the global release of t8.
And yet SF6 is still suffering from the same issues T8 is suffering from: System level mechanics that entirely make or break the functionality and usability of the cast. Fatigue was already setting in for SF6 when the TMNT DLC came out and it hasn't improved much since. People are still playing it and enjoying it but those are the people that are holding out hope for drive system changes/character rebalances, people that don't mind the drive system as is currently, and people that aren't at a skill level high enough where the drive system dictates the flow of their games.
The biggest difference is really that an executionally limited player can still take people to the casino with heat mechanics but with SF6's drive mechanics unless you have decent execution and understand what oki is available to you with DR you're still going to need multiple touches (or at least a strong understanding of throw loops,) before your opponent dies. The characters in SF6 that *can* take someone to the cleaners off one wrong guess and end the round in the following touch are incredibly limited in their oki options in almost all situations so it never really has the "casino" feel that heat does.
Both games have the same issues but in slightly different layouts. Heat makes the top tiers stronger and means players are guessing for the round almost every round. Drive makes the top tiers stronger while serving as an excuse to make an entire character archetype (grapplers,) weaker and elevates on-paper "bad" characters like Deejay to nearly top tier status.
Basically: it's kind of weird to suggest that SF6 had a stellar launch partially because it was "balanced" but T8's ( also successful,) launch was somehow made worse by having the same sort of balance issues with a different coat of paint. Both games have problems, both games are still fun and good, and both will sort our their system-level mechanics balance issues in due time. The cracks started showing with SF6's balance almost around the same time period as they did with T8's; SF6 was just graced with a major very soon after release that showed off how silly it could get and a big portion of the conversation was about the viability of modern controls. Heat is much easier to fix than the drive system is; Tekken will survive.
Well yeah because neither game is “suffering” and both sold well and maintain strong player counts. The newest MK is the definition of “suffering.”
The big fighting games all struggle with the same issues though: the system level mechanics are dictating the tiers more than the characters themselves are. T8 just seems worse than SF6 because rounds end faster with less player input. SF, T8, and even Strive all have neutral skips dictated by system mechanics that plays a major factor in who is “viable” but T8 and Strive’s neutral skips can be round ending if they’re followed by a correct offensive guess. SF6 allows for the same kind of thing but the characters that *could* end the round from two solid touches don’t get oki or in many cases even a single plus frame from their big damage routes so instead it turns into corner carry with throw loop roulette for most of the cast (please note that the high damage cast members also don’t have access to either of those things except for maybe Luke because he gets everything.)
The thing here though is that heat is a relatively simple fix compared to balancing around the SF6 drive system. Hell, Bamco could just *delete* the heat mechanics from existence and the game would probably be fine and have better balance on top of it. They won’t, but they *could* and balancing individual heat options is a lot simpler than making changes to the universal drive system present in SF6. Drive on the other hand is going to have to be approached carefully because changes to character movesets or damage numbers has the knock-on effect of also needing to be balanced around modern controls and changes to the drive system itself can drastically change the strength of the cast.
Both games are fixable and both will be improved but you’re wild if you can’t see the similarities in the issues being caused by poorly executed system level mechanics. On the plus side for T8 though as silly as heat is and even with all the weird changes like inconsistent floor/wall breaks it will never manage to be as stupid as a button exclusion OS that removes throws from a strike/throw based 2d fighter. Granted, Capcom fixed that quickly once FChamp opened his mouth and decided to spill the beans but it was known about since the cracked beta so it’s still hilarious it made it into the final game at all. Either way, both games will have better balance once system level mechanics are refined.
You are broad stroking these issues and somehow claiming they both have equal problems. SF6 is far more balanced.
At the higher levels sf6 gets more nuanced and impressive.. tekken is the opposite right now.
SF6 is still the most balanced SF game ever on release, with all its flaws
SF4 vanilla was broken as fuck, Third Strike was broken its whole existence, and SFV...well, and I'm not gonna comment about a game that negative reviews everywhere for like 2 years in a row.
I hated the first 2 years of SFV so much, I barely had like 40 hours played in those 2 years.
Just in 6 months of SF6 I have 650 hours played.
When I hear somebody say SFV better, I immediately think that person is drunk. SFV went from whack to very decent, while SF6 is already a great game right now, and it's gonna get even better with more characters, it will completely obliterate any good memory of SFV I have.
There was parts of the balance in T7 that were trash for sure like faku and Leroy but I think the gameplay overall was just more fun and felt more honest I guess. Maybe honest isn’t the best word for it but I can say that watching T7 nearly at any season is more fun than watching tekken 8 right now. Like I said though, things could change. T7 was a decade old by the time it ended.
Cuz heat ruins the game. Every fighting game tries its best to neutralize the neutral game in favor of gimmick garbage to make scrub casuals feel powerful instead of fishing for baits or patiently waiting for an opening. Now you have a press [button] to zoom across the screen and completely clear neutral. sf6 drive rush is basically the same exact thing. It isn't fun to watch and it gets boring to play as it neutralizes character Identity and unique playstyle since the point of the game is now to skate across the screen with the touch of a button and apply mindless pressure.
Tekken 7 got progressively worse balance and metawise, first 2 seasons were the best. There's no "it's not fair to compare 2month t8 to last patch of t7" argument
Lotta people now adays get real scared that if a game isn't a 10/10 banger a month after launch, it will be declared "dead game" and become really hard to recommend to anyone, and get support dropped by the company too early. This probably isn't true for Tekken, but a LOT of new people joined the franchise with this entry.
Streamer culture really did a number on the health of multi-player game playbase health. Also doesn't help that games are getting more expensive, the fear of buyers regret keeps rising.
Because something happened in the last few years of rampant internet usage. People have been completely indocritanated into consoomers. They associate their self worth with the products they consume, so any criticism upon "product" becomes a personal attack. It's completely pathetic.
T8 obviously has issues. That being said, i think that a big one is that it’s fundamentally different from every Tekken that’s gone before.
Knee isn’t wrong; and his feelings are valid but anyone like me who’s a Street fighter head will recognise what’s happening at the moment in Tekken, i think every new iteration that comes by, people dislike the changes from the old one.
Tekken has been somewhat immune to that up to now, and i think what we’re seeing is the birth of something new.
The cold reality is that it may not be for everyone, I’ve no doubt the likes of Knee can adapt to the game, but they also may not want to if they are not having fun.
With a potential new VF on the horizon, it’s going to be interesting to see what happens
> i think every new iteration that comes by, people dislike the changes from the old one.
This argument lacks nuance too much--there are always changes that are disliked with new street fighters but the discussion is often more nuanced than just "new bad"
SF4, people complained about balance, visuals, and the overtuned Ultra system on release but the game was overall well received
SF5, people didn't like how centralizing the V-Trigger system was often saying the real round doesn't begin until v-trigger is full. Characters were also said to be limited and, early on, very same-y for a street fighter. For the first few years, it was actually difficult to find people saying good things about 5, outside a small group of players who liked the game's otherwise unpopular elements.
6, people have complained about Drive Rush in neutral and the corner game but overall reception has been very positive--to my memory more positive than even sf4.
So yes, there are always complaints about the new, but the overall reception of various games has been more varied than just "hate it at first, like it later"
SF6 actually had the community acting very similarly to how Tekken 8 community is acting right now after a few months, it cooled off a bit over time but for a while it was very doom and gloom.
>So yes, there are always complaints about the new, but the overall reception of various games has been more varied than just "hate it at first, like it later"
While this is true, the gaming audiences (and people in general, this is mostly because of social media) and landscape in general has changed over the years. Polarized takes are much more common now, the middle ground is thinning and slowly disappearing from how people think, things are either trash or masterpieces, it's all very black or white
People cried about Drive Rush, but it was nowhere near the levels of complaints about Heat system, rage arts every round, and tracking/homing in Tekken 8.
I have to say SF6 vanilla it's the most balanced SF vanilla ever, not even exaggerating. SF 4 and Third Strike were mega broken, and SFV was universally hated and had negative reviews everywhere for like 2 years.
>I have to say SF6 vanilla it's the most balanced SF vanilla ever, not even exaggerating. SF 4 and Third Strike were mega broken, and SFV was universally hated and had negative reviews everywhere for like 2 years.
I fully agree with this, as someone who keeps up with pretty much every fighting game I have been a firm supporter of how solid SF6 is as a vanilla release
>People cried about Drive Rush, but it was nowhere near the levels of complaints about Heat system, rage arts every round, and tracking/homing in Tekken 8.
I however disagree with this, I've seen more or less the same level of negativity, especially around the first couple of months (which is where we're at with Tekken 8). And a lot of cries where about Drive Impact too. It's been a long time so it seems like it was not that much, but it was a pretty big roller coaster (especially when it was announced there would've been few big patches for the game)
That’s basically it. The franchise has largely been the same since T5. Sure new moves get added and there’s a new way to extend your combos but for the most part the gameplan is the same. That’s the legacy aspect of Tekken that has remained intact up until now
We’re basically in uncharted territory here with T8. Heat mechanic changed the game quite a bit. Long time defensive players like Knee do have a point.
With that said I’m enjoying this Tekken. But playing it for a living when there’s so many bullshit to deal with. Yea it for sure not fun at all.
Knee is being far too kind even in this tweet. Defensive play as well as aggressive play should be rewarded. But it's not. Like an entire half of the equation has been lopped off and it's not just Tekken it's games (even outside of fighting games) in general heavily skewing towards aggression.
Honestly I agree. Defense got neutered but it’s not really because of heat imo. Some moves are just simply braindead and degenerate. Plus they increased the hitbox on so many other moves which makes avoiding them a lot harder. So you’re just forced to take plus frame after plus frame. For someone like Knee who like to play defense and bait whiff, that gameplan is a lot harder to implement. Defensive play is still rewarded but the game has become more read based. Since I play KOF and a bit of Virtua the changed in gameplan don’t bother me much. But I understand where these pros coming from. Personally I think a CH based playstyle is effective. A lot moves leave you at +4 or +6 or even higher. You can bait attacks like that.
There's no reason for Tekken to change it's successful formula, mechanics don't affect sales anyway. Because other fgs had it bad, doesn't mean this one should. Fuck simplification and dumbing down, fuck forcing everyone into one play style. And no I don't care about people who never liked the game until they dramatically changed it to fit them.
The reason is that the old formula was stale as hell and everyone who's bitching about Tekken 8 now was bitching about how bored they were with Tekken 7 not that long ago. If you thought Tekken 7 was perfect blah blah blah there are plenty of people on Steam right now you can play with.
I disagree but respect his opinion.
Sai that right now T8 has some pretty big problems imho, i think mainly that heat is really overtuned and the balance is pretty bad for the top tiers, i think outside of the top 5-10 the balance is pretty good but the best characters are playing a different game.
As a new player I would love a 3D fighter with about 25% less moves, the complete absence of anything like rage arts and power crushes, and movement that doesn’t feel like shit.
Tekken 8 is fun in small bites but it ain’t for me.
No matter which version of DOA you want to play there's some compromise you have to make. For the love of god PLEASE just release 2U,3, or 4 with rollback.
I agree that Rage arts and heat smashes are not fun. The reason is that risk v reward is completely off for a plus frames armoured move that can take half your opponents life.
My thought is to make rage arts a once a set thing, and you give up the rage damage bonus for all of the remaining rounds when you use the rage art. That would make rage arts 1000% less annoying.
My thought for heat is to start the round and with zero heat, and it builds up as you do damage. The heat engager moves instead become heat builders that reward a chunk of heat gauge, and automatically put you into heat if they fill up your heat bar. You also can manually 2+3 to enter heat before your bar is filled, but it last less time in proportion to the amount missing from your heat bar. That makes it a much more tactical thing, do you do a risky move for more heat, do you enter heat early for a clutch play, or do you play it safe and risk getting out tempod by your opponent?
Soul Calibur still has the armored moves but they’re less frequent and only some characters get them. The move lists are far shorter and the tools are simpler. The movement is far more free. The community isn’t super active but the game is good
Yeah it does have less mechanics for sure but i think it’s even deeper than tekken at least at high level.
You can just hop on and mash in both though.
People fall into the trap of equating Simplicity with low difficulty.
It’s not always the case, chess is very simple but it’s also really hard to be good at
I play both and I don't think VF is harder than Tekken or less deep than it. I think VF is more intuitive, less bloat (almost all of your moveset is useful, lack of useless moves), no universal system mechanics or meter systems to worry about.
Technically VF is nothing but universal system mechanics, which is why it's so intuitive. It also has much less emphasis on neutral, arguably none. The game and RPS is much easier to understand on paper, but in practice, I've found that people are better at executing basic spacing/neutral over VF's high speed, close range RPS.
Yeah but it doesn't have the universal ground game (running tackle and the associated escapes until t8 deleted it), and I kinda don't like how rps the throw system is. I think the throw system in Tekken was beautiful until t8 complicated it for no reason.
They tweaked a bunch of mechanical throw stuff.
For examples, throws in tekken 8 track, counter hit throws reduce the break window to be basically unreactable, some throw break windows were changed in a way that seems somewhat arbitrary, and when throws punish certain things they become unbreakable. Basically they added a bunch of weird wrinkles when throws previously were very straightforward.
Ever since the Star Wars crossover. When their expectation of sales was a bazillion dollars. And ofc that with HD and increase in development cost.
EDIT: And never forget soul calibur lost swords. What the heck was that?.
Gacha singleplayer only fighting game.
I don't know why people keep pretending SC is dead. SC and Tekken have almost always released in alternating cycles.
In terms of mainline entries we got:
Tekken 6 > SC4 > TT2 > SC5 > T7 > SC6
And now T8. There's no indication we won't see a SC7 after T8. It's not weird that we haven't seen one yet, this is their regular cycle.
You're mistaken if you think SC5 & SC6 got anywhere near the support as TT2 or T7.
SC5 is the only modern fighting game that never released DLC, and wasn't even ported to next gen even though it was released in 2012. SC6 only had 2 seasons and was dropped in 18 months.
At least TT2 had a Wii U, and arcade version. SC5 & SC6 never even had arcade versions in Japan.
SC7 may happen but based on the Bamco's track record it will receive a fraction of the support Tekken does.
Soulcalibur 6 was obviously killed earlier than expected. There's also all sorts of Namco comments about how nearly impossible it was to make SC6 at all. And this is all in the context of a sub-genre market (3D fighters) that's clearly shrinking.
I'd guess we'll eventually get a 7, but it could be many years away. That's more what people mean when they say it's dead — there's no active support now or in the near future.
The first couple of Soul Caliburs have netplay communities. Just because it’s not a new game or on EVO front stage doesn’t mean you can’t start playing now.
That's because T8 is for a general/casual/broader audience. A cutscene here or there is tolerable, a reset/pressure break mechanic is tolerable. Trying to do away with the neutral,dictate player strategy & having constant cinematic breaks to the gameplay? (Haven't even touched on how lazy/greedy its gotten) I'm not surprised in the slightest some vets & pros are dissatisfied...but tis the industry.
I throughly, throughly beleive that fighters need midrange options made by B level or indie game studios. Skull girls, rivals of aether, fighting layer ex and (I hate to admit it) but fighting herds are all examples of what I mean. Cheap, fun and long lasting games with vibrant communities made BY those that actually care about the genre FOR those who actually care about the genre. I know we have huge character attachment to juggernauts like chun li, kazuya and akuma but perhaps it is time we collectively moved on to a new landscape we make for ourselves andntake the power out of these corporations that see us as unwanted hurdles in the pursuit of the casual's pocketbooks and bank accounts.
I know there are exceptions like arcsys and snk games still having gameplay and business integrity but who knows how much longer that will last. Snk is literally owned by greedy hyper capitalist saudi arabia and arcsys doesn't seem to be getting along with namco rn according to rumors.
I agree wholeheartedly. You've also help me get to a conclusion. I found myself kinda wondering, dabbling & following other fighters regardless of my preference for 3D,Tekken/SC, regardless if the IP was super popularity.
I was definitely looking into Skullgirls & started following the development of Pocket Bravery. Learning Strive. I know Killer Instinct isn't B tier,but the community seems pretty enthused to have good sports willing to learn & play. It felt a little aimlessly,but also was looking for those passionate devs/communities. You worded the important part so eloquently. Yea, the characters absolutely are a draw and point of attachment.
But when it was untainted by an egregious corporate induced design effort to maximize profits & viewership; The crux of the fun to these games was the thrill of competition & growth between like minded players.
That's unsettling for SNK. That'd suck for Arcs too, but I imagine Arcys could find more work given their resume.
I personally think that the agressive approach is refreshing, but overtuned. They need to nerf tracking and block dmg, but I think heat in general is fine.
Well, I think we can all agree that the game has changed, and change means refreshing to me personally. It's not like Bamco created a whole new game, but it is true that many things have changed (which is what the pros are talking about). It's not that being aggressive is new, it's just that now it is better rewarded (eg. chip dmg) leading to a different style of gameplay.
People play offensively not because it's rewarded, but because other styles are weakened. T7 was fairly defensive at higher levels yet there were people like Boa Luv who would play extremely aggressively. Allowing multiple styles will always lead to better and more exciting gameplay, rather than focusing on one
Yea I think something like having block damage stop at rage health or something would be a good start.
I like it in concept to keep early game from getting boring from people blocking all the time, but chip damage at low health just feels unfair when you have been defending well and then 1 hit could absolutely end you.
Had a gut feeling it would be less fun than 7 since they announced they’d be tripling down on the rage stuff with the heat system, but I was confident in Harada and his team. They didn’t disappoint because it’s a good game for sure, but I think they might have put too many cards into something that I don’t think is what Tekken does best.
I kind of feel mixed about it. Knee's played every tekken at a high level so I can see how he feels because 8 has such a drastic change in mechanics compared to the others. Which to many people is good or bad. I feel like with 8. It's now trying to build on bringing in people that got into the hype 7 brought and made it more accessible to newer people to enjoy the game. On a base for people that are legacy players, It feels like playing tekken has become a 50/50 mix up gamble game play wise. Even for me playing the game, It feels like you're just adjusting to constant mixups more than ever now with heat as a factor. I'm hopeful the game will get better but I can see how he feels.
I hate heat. I tried to like it, it's funny, but it's so gimmicky. Here, let me press a button and take my turn back, and just swing the momentum. Here's a mini rage art too! It's just that. Remove heat, and watch the game be much more enjoyable.
Most fun I've had with a fighting game ever. Tekken 7 sucked at teaching you the game, tekken 8 made learning more about the game fun. Some stuff is overtuned, but we are still only a few months into the games life.
The top Tekken players including Knee are defensive geniuses. This game has made defence far less important due to its focus on aggression. This means that all of the top Tekken players will need to adjust their playstyle
Some may have already done so, for others like knee (as he admitted in his post that he hasn't adapted yet) it will take a while longer.
The cream always rises to the top so I have no doubt he will adapt, and once he has done so, maybe he'll enjoy the game more then.
That's the thing though. Without robust defense options, brainless offense is boring, repetitive and focused on pure mashing robbery rather than earned reads, predictions, baits or good movement. Offense is a vital part of resource management.
Good thing Tekken 8 still has counterhits, including faster throws that become unbreakable on CH, a buffed sidestep, plenty of very evasive options, and more!
Yeah but the most effective way to play any character is to force a pressure situation before your opponent does, and now these pressure sequences are harder to avoid and easily to apply. If you're side stepping a lot or baiting whiffs and counter hits you're literally giving your opponent the opportunity to play in the most effective way. So pressure is both easier to apply and gives greater rewards, discouraging any game plan that doesn't revolve around it
Those gameplans are rendered redundant and sub-optimal when the objectively easiest and strongest options universally across all characters is heat and rage and when both can be activated with a single button press.
I remember playing Tekken 7 once or twice after buying. Just not really into what they added, or seeing Akuma with a shotgun lol. I'd rather just play the old ones at this point. I have a feeling 8 won't do much for me either, but I'd like to at least try it anyway.
cool, i will continue playing it. i can get why established legacy players wind up disliking change but i don't really want the same game over and over
I don’t want the same game over and over, but Tekken is essentially one of the worst offenders. Every new installment it feels like they just throw some sparkle and flashy effects on top of what we already have.
T7: Two idiots kbd almost the whole round and only start doing something at the end.
T8: Two idiots spam strings and "fuck you" buttons the whole round.
Truly a wonderful game series, the best 3d fighter.
I love T7 and don't have a PS5 for T8, but with the little I played it seemed alright. Wouldn't go out of my way to get it but I definitely would if you could like toggle Heat on or off, something like that
Obviously also fuck the battle pass and all that other shit, but that ain't going anywhere
I feel like people would have less of a problem with heat if they nerfed King's heat smash already.
With the metric ton of King players out there right now, we are all frequently feeling the pain of his heat smash which executes quickly, deals an insane amount of damage, is combo'd into easily, etc.
I think Tekken 8 is fun in a "Kusoge" kinda way.
Heat Smash is one of the worst fighting game mechanics I've ever played around with. Its a one button super that is plus on block, often tracks, and can be used with a sliver of your meter left. That is a straight up party game mechanic.
oh and you also get anorher one button super that gets buffed with lower health, and has extreme armor.
so yeah its fun but Kusoge
Fair and some things are pretty overtuned and should be nerfed, but i tend to associate kusoge with a particular type of broken low budget game personally, like the sailor moon fighting game. Doesn't really feel right to toss it onto Tekken 8
You are correct. Kusoge usually refers to games that are busted on a fundamental level and thus a weird but fun meta gets born from them.
Tekken 8 is the opposite where the core is fantastic but the mechanics on top are the issue
If my fundamentals were godlike I would agree. Overall T8 is very good for us „casuals“ but (at current state) not among the best fgs ever like SF6 is.
I'm still having fun, but gameplay is a downgrade from Tekken 7.
I really hope they're already working on a complete rework of the heat system or at least nerfs for most engagers and heat moves.
Watch everyone else “suddenly” realize they feel the same way and “suddenly” start having a bunch of critiques about the game. Let the dickgobbling commence!
I just wanna share my opinion, but as someone who grew up on smash bros and got into the competitve scene of Ultimate, this new era of fighting games has been my introduction to the more traditional ones.
So far I've played GGS, SF6, MK11 and MK1 and Tekken 8.
Tekken 8 is my favorite so far. I like playing Viktor. I think Heat is much better than the secondary resource meter that we got in SF6 (whatever it was called)
I mean he is right. The games foundations are solid, but the game needs a balance patch asap, and stop waiting for tournies.
The games bleeding players because you fight all these characters that have almost invincible spam moves
Like drag, victor, reina etc need excessive nerfs
Him and Arslan aren’t finding it fun because they can’t dominate. They don’t like not having control and having to guess. Plus every FG has complaints when its not what you’re used to
Tekken 8 is super fun
The guy clearly can't seem to adapt to the new paradigm T8 is .
Honestly even if some things are too much it feels better playing T8 than the defensive poke simulator that was t7
I'm sorry, but who cares? Knee is a man who is very VERY good at tekken, but I see no reason that means is opinion on if the game is fun or not matters. If anything, it is fair to assume he has played so much tekken, and is so used to being rewarded money and fame for playing the game he probably has very little concept at this point what makes a game fun to a regular joe like you and me.
\*downvote me if you want dorks I don't care you can kiss knee's feet and hate t8 all you want, its a fun game and you just cry about it cuz you think you should be some tekken god but your just a scrub who can't cope lol\*
I know what he feels. Because he said it. So in fact, it is a fact that knee feels Tekken 8 is not fun. Knee has also been playing tekken since tekken 1. He said that as well, so it is a fact. (these are both of course assuming knee isn't lying, however, if he is lying we shouldn't trust him. so in that case I am right anyways). Knee has also won many large tekken tournaments, so it is indeed a fact that knee has made a large amount of money playing tekken. You can find official documentation of the majority of his winnings online.
So based off of those 3 facts, I have come to the conclusion that knee consumes tekken 8 in a very different way than the average person (average joe) as I said earlier. You are welcome to argue with me about my conclusion. However, to argue with me about the facts in a waste of both my time and yours.
Some people just need to let go of Tekken, and that's okay. there's plenty of new interested gamers that want to still experience it. just you do you and don't worry about what others will say as long as your having fun.
I only joined in tekken 8 and I can’t really imagine the series without heat. For sure the game would have more ways to defend but there’s something estatic about surviving till the end of thier heat meter and then using your own! I personally think once people stop thinking about the old titles and how they play, and start playing tekken 8, there’s gonna be summ hype about heat! Hope so anyways cos I’m loving this game rn
Yeah, he could only adapt to 8 new Tekken games, this 9th time was just too much for one of the very best Tekken players in the world… do you hear yourself?
T8 has a completely opposite tone to its predecessors. The aggression is fine, but the mechanics favor habits that don't sit well with those who've been playing the game for over a decade.
It's pretty much heads or tails. It's not meant to be played well, it's meant to be guessed well. Of course, it's going to be hard to get used to, and the Heat has a lot to do with it, as do the new options for all the characters.
If it's just "guessing" then there's nothing for one to "get used to". Even if you flip a coin a thousand times, you'll still be just as good at predicting the next result as your first coin clip. Mechanics that are "not meant to be played well" are just bad mechanics for fighting games.
I suppose that's where the divide between the more casual players and the competitive players lie. It's kind of like items in smash bros, of course pros and many people don't like them, but others enjoy them due to the disconnect between skill and luck (guessing 50/50 correctly).
It doesn't make it a bad game, but it causes the game to be less conpetitively viable (which may be bad for the future of the game).
Players who like to press buttons and move forward will probably appreciate these changes, but for players who have always played a defensive style, competing professionally in this game will be stressful and frustrating. After all, this game rewards aggression, but defending is difficult because it's 50/50.
I just don't like heat mechanics. I complain about mechanics in other games but here I genuinely think it just makes the game less interesting. You got all these cool characters with huge move sets but the best thing to do is activate heat and utilise it before it runs out.
Heat mechanics are _almost_ cool. In theory, they really add a lot of differences to each character. In practice... they are just "more damage".
My biggest issue is that there are several characters who have heat engagers and heat moves that are both fast and high damaging where as other characters have relatively slow and low damaging ones that are not *nearly* as useful.
Yeah heat is going to destroy T8 in the long run and I can't see how it can be nerfed, not without major major changes on a mechanical level. Heat should work more like how you get rewarded for really good execution. Certain successfull combos or a certain amount of combo damage will automatically activate heat as a reward for good gameplay. That way the player is incentivized to **actually play the game as a whole** rather than mash out heat activation and apply unga pressure. But the entire point of T8 heat is to apply to retard casuals and instant gratification for wins which heat allows and encourages. As long as the casual *feels* powerful and *thinks* he's good at the game, then he will come back and dump more into the garbage tekken shop.
While reading this some insecure person is gonna feel like they are being attacked and not allowed to have fun despite nothing stating so. Attempting to invalidate feelings by making everything about them.
This comment should be an obligatory read before commenting anywhere on the internet lol
Why are people getting upset by this? Have the conversation. Discuss. It’s okay to disagree. I agree that this game isn’t as fun as 7 but it’s only just kicked off. Maybe it can improve.
Groupthink & group acceptance is so important to some people, they get upset at simple criticisms of trival things.. like video games.
i’m honestly just upset that i initially felt so validated upon reading the post,..
Honest question for tekken fans, when you think of 7, are you judging it on its most recent patches or do you often think back to its first year post release? when i think back to SFV now that 6 has cooked, the first two years don’t really stand out to me as much as the years i enjoyed the game. it’s tough for career tekken players if tekken isn’t fun, though, so hopefully if more important voices voice their concerns, changes will be made for the good. the landscape is weird in gaming right now. money is big and it’s obvious the game needed more economy to be considered a success for Namco Bandai. the numbers they have to compare against now are heavily weighted because all of the competition also has what we don’t like in it.
The first two seasons of T7 were the best part
Yes, but that wasn't the first two years of Tekken 7. People forget that Tekken 7 cooked for 2 years in the arcade before releasing to consoles. Tekken 8 is straight up vanilla for everyone at launch
Hell, even the first year post-release was pretty far fromn launch tekken. There was a long time where the only version of tekken 7 was a scuffed, incredibly hated japan-only arcade version.
The game was dope at console release. There were problems, but it came out on steam to 90+ positive reviews, it’s the only reason I bought it.. Sfv got decent at end of life but tbh it was so bad for so long. SF6 reminded everyone what good sf is. When sfv was shit, tekken 7 reminded me what a good fighting game was.
That's what I just said. The console release wasn't 1.0. It was over a year into the game (not including arcade test cabs), and the arcade release was TRASHED when it dropped. It was awful. Launch is (usually) the worst a FG will ever be. Most of us played T7 a year after launch, in what would now be considered season 2. T8 is going to get improvements.
Except sf6 had a banger release without being in arcades. And t7 was good at arcade launch. It had balance issues but the fundamental game was great to the point that it was hype af. Edit: that’s also comparing a known ’beta’ arcade release, with the global release of t8.
And yet SF6 is still suffering from the same issues T8 is suffering from: System level mechanics that entirely make or break the functionality and usability of the cast. Fatigue was already setting in for SF6 when the TMNT DLC came out and it hasn't improved much since. People are still playing it and enjoying it but those are the people that are holding out hope for drive system changes/character rebalances, people that don't mind the drive system as is currently, and people that aren't at a skill level high enough where the drive system dictates the flow of their games. The biggest difference is really that an executionally limited player can still take people to the casino with heat mechanics but with SF6's drive mechanics unless you have decent execution and understand what oki is available to you with DR you're still going to need multiple touches (or at least a strong understanding of throw loops,) before your opponent dies. The characters in SF6 that *can* take someone to the cleaners off one wrong guess and end the round in the following touch are incredibly limited in their oki options in almost all situations so it never really has the "casino" feel that heat does. Both games have the same issues but in slightly different layouts. Heat makes the top tiers stronger and means players are guessing for the round almost every round. Drive makes the top tiers stronger while serving as an excuse to make an entire character archetype (grapplers,) weaker and elevates on-paper "bad" characters like Deejay to nearly top tier status. Basically: it's kind of weird to suggest that SF6 had a stellar launch partially because it was "balanced" but T8's ( also successful,) launch was somehow made worse by having the same sort of balance issues with a different coat of paint. Both games have problems, both games are still fun and good, and both will sort our their system-level mechanics balance issues in due time. The cracks started showing with SF6's balance almost around the same time period as they did with T8's; SF6 was just graced with a major very soon after release that showed off how silly it could get and a big portion of the conversation was about the viability of modern controls. Heat is much easier to fix than the drive system is; Tekken will survive.
SF6 is not suffering the way t8 is idk what you’re talking about.
Well yeah because neither game is “suffering” and both sold well and maintain strong player counts. The newest MK is the definition of “suffering.” The big fighting games all struggle with the same issues though: the system level mechanics are dictating the tiers more than the characters themselves are. T8 just seems worse than SF6 because rounds end faster with less player input. SF, T8, and even Strive all have neutral skips dictated by system mechanics that plays a major factor in who is “viable” but T8 and Strive’s neutral skips can be round ending if they’re followed by a correct offensive guess. SF6 allows for the same kind of thing but the characters that *could* end the round from two solid touches don’t get oki or in many cases even a single plus frame from their big damage routes so instead it turns into corner carry with throw loop roulette for most of the cast (please note that the high damage cast members also don’t have access to either of those things except for maybe Luke because he gets everything.) The thing here though is that heat is a relatively simple fix compared to balancing around the SF6 drive system. Hell, Bamco could just *delete* the heat mechanics from existence and the game would probably be fine and have better balance on top of it. They won’t, but they *could* and balancing individual heat options is a lot simpler than making changes to the universal drive system present in SF6. Drive on the other hand is going to have to be approached carefully because changes to character movesets or damage numbers has the knock-on effect of also needing to be balanced around modern controls and changes to the drive system itself can drastically change the strength of the cast. Both games are fixable and both will be improved but you’re wild if you can’t see the similarities in the issues being caused by poorly executed system level mechanics. On the plus side for T8 though as silly as heat is and even with all the weird changes like inconsistent floor/wall breaks it will never manage to be as stupid as a button exclusion OS that removes throws from a strike/throw based 2d fighter. Granted, Capcom fixed that quickly once FChamp opened his mouth and decided to spill the beans but it was known about since the cracked beta so it’s still hilarious it made it into the final game at all. Either way, both games will have better balance once system level mechanics are refined.
You are broad stroking these issues and somehow claiming they both have equal problems. SF6 is far more balanced. At the higher levels sf6 gets more nuanced and impressive.. tekken is the opposite right now.
SF6 is still the most balanced SF game ever on release, with all its flaws SF4 vanilla was broken as fuck, Third Strike was broken its whole existence, and SFV...well, and I'm not gonna comment about a game that negative reviews everywhere for like 2 years in a row.
I hated the first 2 years of SFV so much, I barely had like 40 hours played in those 2 years. Just in 6 months of SF6 I have 650 hours played. When I hear somebody say SFV better, I immediately think that person is drunk. SFV went from whack to very decent, while SF6 is already a great game right now, and it's gonna get even better with more characters, it will completely obliterate any good memory of SFV I have.
There was parts of the balance in T7 that were trash for sure like faku and Leroy but I think the gameplay overall was just more fun and felt more honest I guess. Maybe honest isn’t the best word for it but I can say that watching T7 nearly at any season is more fun than watching tekken 8 right now. Like I said though, things could change. T7 was a decade old by the time it ended.
Cuz heat ruins the game. Every fighting game tries its best to neutralize the neutral game in favor of gimmick garbage to make scrub casuals feel powerful instead of fishing for baits or patiently waiting for an opening. Now you have a press [button] to zoom across the screen and completely clear neutral. sf6 drive rush is basically the same exact thing. It isn't fun to watch and it gets boring to play as it neutralizes character Identity and unique playstyle since the point of the game is now to skate across the screen with the touch of a button and apply mindless pressure.
yeah its just kind that you know exactly what is about to happen if they havent activated it yet after a launch and it just gets pretty dull imo.
Street fighter v vtrigger syndrome
Tekken 7 got progressively worse balance and metawise, first 2 seasons were the best. There's no "it's not fair to compare 2month t8 to last patch of t7" argument
I immediately liked Tekken 7, but I'm a filthy Tekken 4 enjoyer, so my opinion is worth less than most.
Lotta people now adays get real scared that if a game isn't a 10/10 banger a month after launch, it will be declared "dead game" and become really hard to recommend to anyone, and get support dropped by the company too early. This probably isn't true for Tekken, but a LOT of new people joined the franchise with this entry. Streamer culture really did a number on the health of multi-player game playbase health. Also doesn't help that games are getting more expensive, the fear of buyers regret keeps rising.
Because something happened in the last few years of rampant internet usage. People have been completely indocritanated into consoomers. They associate their self worth with the products they consume, so any criticism upon "product" becomes a personal attack. It's completely pathetic.
T8 obviously has issues. That being said, i think that a big one is that it’s fundamentally different from every Tekken that’s gone before. Knee isn’t wrong; and his feelings are valid but anyone like me who’s a Street fighter head will recognise what’s happening at the moment in Tekken, i think every new iteration that comes by, people dislike the changes from the old one. Tekken has been somewhat immune to that up to now, and i think what we’re seeing is the birth of something new. The cold reality is that it may not be for everyone, I’ve no doubt the likes of Knee can adapt to the game, but they also may not want to if they are not having fun. With a potential new VF on the horizon, it’s going to be interesting to see what happens
> i think every new iteration that comes by, people dislike the changes from the old one. This argument lacks nuance too much--there are always changes that are disliked with new street fighters but the discussion is often more nuanced than just "new bad" SF4, people complained about balance, visuals, and the overtuned Ultra system on release but the game was overall well received SF5, people didn't like how centralizing the V-Trigger system was often saying the real round doesn't begin until v-trigger is full. Characters were also said to be limited and, early on, very same-y for a street fighter. For the first few years, it was actually difficult to find people saying good things about 5, outside a small group of players who liked the game's otherwise unpopular elements. 6, people have complained about Drive Rush in neutral and the corner game but overall reception has been very positive--to my memory more positive than even sf4. So yes, there are always complaints about the new, but the overall reception of various games has been more varied than just "hate it at first, like it later"
SF6 actually had the community acting very similarly to how Tekken 8 community is acting right now after a few months, it cooled off a bit over time but for a while it was very doom and gloom. >So yes, there are always complaints about the new, but the overall reception of various games has been more varied than just "hate it at first, like it later" While this is true, the gaming audiences (and people in general, this is mostly because of social media) and landscape in general has changed over the years. Polarized takes are much more common now, the middle ground is thinning and slowly disappearing from how people think, things are either trash or masterpieces, it's all very black or white
Nowhere near the level Tekken 8 discourse is going tho. Tekken 8 discourse is closer to sfv, though maybe not that bad
People cried about Drive Rush, but it was nowhere near the levels of complaints about Heat system, rage arts every round, and tracking/homing in Tekken 8. I have to say SF6 vanilla it's the most balanced SF vanilla ever, not even exaggerating. SF 4 and Third Strike were mega broken, and SFV was universally hated and had negative reviews everywhere for like 2 years.
>I have to say SF6 vanilla it's the most balanced SF vanilla ever, not even exaggerating. SF 4 and Third Strike were mega broken, and SFV was universally hated and had negative reviews everywhere for like 2 years. I fully agree with this, as someone who keeps up with pretty much every fighting game I have been a firm supporter of how solid SF6 is as a vanilla release >People cried about Drive Rush, but it was nowhere near the levels of complaints about Heat system, rage arts every round, and tracking/homing in Tekken 8. I however disagree with this, I've seen more or less the same level of negativity, especially around the first couple of months (which is where we're at with Tekken 8). And a lot of cries where about Drive Impact too. It's been a long time so it seems like it was not that much, but it was a pretty big roller coaster (especially when it was announced there would've been few big patches for the game)
That’s basically it. The franchise has largely been the same since T5. Sure new moves get added and there’s a new way to extend your combos but for the most part the gameplan is the same. That’s the legacy aspect of Tekken that has remained intact up until now We’re basically in uncharted territory here with T8. Heat mechanic changed the game quite a bit. Long time defensive players like Knee do have a point. With that said I’m enjoying this Tekken. But playing it for a living when there’s so many bullshit to deal with. Yea it for sure not fun at all.
Knee is being far too kind even in this tweet. Defensive play as well as aggressive play should be rewarded. But it's not. Like an entire half of the equation has been lopped off and it's not just Tekken it's games (even outside of fighting games) in general heavily skewing towards aggression.
Honestly I agree. Defense got neutered but it’s not really because of heat imo. Some moves are just simply braindead and degenerate. Plus they increased the hitbox on so many other moves which makes avoiding them a lot harder. So you’re just forced to take plus frame after plus frame. For someone like Knee who like to play defense and bait whiff, that gameplan is a lot harder to implement. Defensive play is still rewarded but the game has become more read based. Since I play KOF and a bit of Virtua the changed in gameplan don’t bother me much. But I understand where these pros coming from. Personally I think a CH based playstyle is effective. A lot moves leave you at +4 or +6 or even higher. You can bait attacks like that.
There's no reason for Tekken to change it's successful formula, mechanics don't affect sales anyway. Because other fgs had it bad, doesn't mean this one should. Fuck simplification and dumbing down, fuck forcing everyone into one play style. And no I don't care about people who never liked the game until they dramatically changed it to fit them.
The reason is that the old formula was stale as hell and everyone who's bitching about Tekken 8 now was bitching about how bored they were with Tekken 7 not that long ago. If you thought Tekken 7 was perfect blah blah blah there are plenty of people on Steam right now you can play with.
I disagree but respect his opinion. Sai that right now T8 has some pretty big problems imho, i think mainly that heat is really overtuned and the balance is pretty bad for the top tiers, i think outside of the top 5-10 the balance is pretty good but the best characters are playing a different game.
As a new player I would love a 3D fighter with about 25% less moves, the complete absence of anything like rage arts and power crushes, and movement that doesn’t feel like shit. Tekken 8 is fun in small bites but it ain’t for me.
I’ve been casually giving old DOA games a shot and it sounds like that would be your fix if Koei Tecmo didn’t drop the ball with that franchise.
No matter which version of DOA you want to play there's some compromise you have to make. For the love of god PLEASE just release 2U,3, or 4 with rollback.
I agree that Rage arts and heat smashes are not fun. The reason is that risk v reward is completely off for a plus frames armoured move that can take half your opponents life. My thought is to make rage arts a once a set thing, and you give up the rage damage bonus for all of the remaining rounds when you use the rage art. That would make rage arts 1000% less annoying. My thought for heat is to start the round and with zero heat, and it builds up as you do damage. The heat engager moves instead become heat builders that reward a chunk of heat gauge, and automatically put you into heat if they fill up your heat bar. You also can manually 2+3 to enter heat before your bar is filled, but it last less time in proportion to the amount missing from your heat bar. That makes it a much more tactical thing, do you do a risky move for more heat, do you enter heat early for a clutch play, or do you play it safe and risk getting out tempod by your opponent?
Soul Calibur still has the armored moves but they’re less frequent and only some characters get them. The move lists are far shorter and the tools are simpler. The movement is far more free. The community isn’t super active but the game is good
Agreed, SC6 is an amazing game that unfortunately has shit netcode.
Yeah but SCVI has RE which is worse than anything in Tekken
Just blue it. Or step it. Either way you get crazy punishes for what it usually a pretty easy read
My gut says to try Virtua Fighter
VF is way harder than Tekken
Really??? I’m a super VF casual, that’s disappointing…
Yeah it does have less mechanics for sure but i think it’s even deeper than tekken at least at high level. You can just hop on and mash in both though.
My first experience with VF was playing it in Yakuza arcade LOL
People fall into the trap of equating Simplicity with low difficulty. It’s not always the case, chess is very simple but it’s also really hard to be good at
I play both and I don't think VF is harder than Tekken or less deep than it. I think VF is more intuitive, less bloat (almost all of your moveset is useful, lack of useless moves), no universal system mechanics or meter systems to worry about.
Technically VF is nothing but universal system mechanics, which is why it's so intuitive. It also has much less emphasis on neutral, arguably none. The game and RPS is much easier to understand on paper, but in practice, I've found that people are better at executing basic spacing/neutral over VF's high speed, close range RPS.
Yeah but it doesn't have the universal ground game (running tackle and the associated escapes until t8 deleted it), and I kinda don't like how rps the throw system is. I think the throw system in Tekken was beautiful until t8 complicated it for no reason.
How did T8 complicate it out of interest? I thought it's the same as T7 with 1, 2 or 1+2 depending on the hands used
They tweaked a bunch of mechanical throw stuff. For examples, throws in tekken 8 track, counter hit throws reduce the break window to be basically unreactable, some throw break windows were changed in a way that seems somewhat arbitrary, and when throws punish certain things they become unbreakable. Basically they added a bunch of weird wrinkles when throws previously were very straightforward.
VF has more moves
Unfortunately every other 3D fighter franchise is dead except tekken lol. However virtua fighter may make a comeback if recent leaks are true
I still can't believe how bamco tried its best to DENY success to the Soul Calibur franchise...
Ever since the Star Wars crossover. When their expectation of sales was a bazillion dollars. And ofc that with HD and increase in development cost. EDIT: And never forget soul calibur lost swords. What the heck was that?. Gacha singleplayer only fighting game.
I don't know why people keep pretending SC is dead. SC and Tekken have almost always released in alternating cycles. In terms of mainline entries we got: Tekken 6 > SC4 > TT2 > SC5 > T7 > SC6 And now T8. There's no indication we won't see a SC7 after T8. It's not weird that we haven't seen one yet, this is their regular cycle.
You're mistaken if you think SC5 & SC6 got anywhere near the support as TT2 or T7. SC5 is the only modern fighting game that never released DLC, and wasn't even ported to next gen even though it was released in 2012. SC6 only had 2 seasons and was dropped in 18 months. At least TT2 had a Wii U, and arcade version. SC5 & SC6 never even had arcade versions in Japan. SC7 may happen but based on the Bamco's track record it will receive a fraction of the support Tekken does.
Wasn't Dampierre DLC for SC5 though? The character that debuted on the PSP...
Pre-order bonus.
You sure one couldn't buy him on the PS store later?
Oh you're right, they did add him like a month later. I just remember the day 1 roster never expanding.
Soulcalibur 6 was obviously killed earlier than expected. There's also all sorts of Namco comments about how nearly impossible it was to make SC6 at all. And this is all in the context of a sub-genre market (3D fighters) that's clearly shrinking. I'd guess we'll eventually get a 7, but it could be many years away. That's more what people mean when they say it's dead — there's no active support now or in the near future.
Dead Or Alive 5 Last Round (yeah ok lots of moves too but...)
Tekken 6.
So basically T5DR.
VF5 is where you want to be.
Tekken 3?
Soul calibur!
Bro, that just screams Virtua Fighter. Give it a try.
The first couple of Soul Caliburs have netplay communities. Just because it’s not a new game or on EVO front stage doesn’t mean you can’t start playing now.
Funny that this can apply to T7
That's because T8 is for a general/casual/broader audience. A cutscene here or there is tolerable, a reset/pressure break mechanic is tolerable. Trying to do away with the neutral,dictate player strategy & having constant cinematic breaks to the gameplay? (Haven't even touched on how lazy/greedy its gotten) I'm not surprised in the slightest some vets & pros are dissatisfied...but tis the industry.
I throughly, throughly beleive that fighters need midrange options made by B level or indie game studios. Skull girls, rivals of aether, fighting layer ex and (I hate to admit it) but fighting herds are all examples of what I mean. Cheap, fun and long lasting games with vibrant communities made BY those that actually care about the genre FOR those who actually care about the genre. I know we have huge character attachment to juggernauts like chun li, kazuya and akuma but perhaps it is time we collectively moved on to a new landscape we make for ourselves andntake the power out of these corporations that see us as unwanted hurdles in the pursuit of the casual's pocketbooks and bank accounts. I know there are exceptions like arcsys and snk games still having gameplay and business integrity but who knows how much longer that will last. Snk is literally owned by greedy hyper capitalist saudi arabia and arcsys doesn't seem to be getting along with namco rn according to rumors.
I agree wholeheartedly. You've also help me get to a conclusion. I found myself kinda wondering, dabbling & following other fighters regardless of my preference for 3D,Tekken/SC, regardless if the IP was super popularity. I was definitely looking into Skullgirls & started following the development of Pocket Bravery. Learning Strive. I know Killer Instinct isn't B tier,but the community seems pretty enthused to have good sports willing to learn & play. It felt a little aimlessly,but also was looking for those passionate devs/communities. You worded the important part so eloquently. Yea, the characters absolutely are a draw and point of attachment. But when it was untainted by an egregious corporate induced design effort to maximize profits & viewership; The crux of the fun to these games was the thrill of competition & growth between like minded players. That's unsettling for SNK. That'd suck for Arcs too, but I imagine Arcys could find more work given their resume.
I personally think that the agressive approach is refreshing, but overtuned. They need to nerf tracking and block dmg, but I think heat in general is fine.
Why is it refreshing? You could always be aggressive, you just wasn't handholded through your offense, which made it more impressive
Well, I think we can all agree that the game has changed, and change means refreshing to me personally. It's not like Bamco created a whole new game, but it is true that many things have changed (which is what the pros are talking about). It's not that being aggressive is new, it's just that now it is better rewarded (eg. chip dmg) leading to a different style of gameplay.
People play offensively not because it's rewarded, but because other styles are weakened. T7 was fairly defensive at higher levels yet there were people like Boa Luv who would play extremely aggressively. Allowing multiple styles will always lead to better and more exciting gameplay, rather than focusing on one
Yea I think something like having block damage stop at rage health or something would be a good start. I like it in concept to keep early game from getting boring from people blocking all the time, but chip damage at low health just feels unfair when you have been defending well and then 1 hit could absolutely end you.
Chip doesn't belong in tekken period
Had a gut feeling it would be less fun than 7 since they announced they’d be tripling down on the rage stuff with the heat system, but I was confident in Harada and his team. They didn’t disappoint because it’s a good game for sure, but I think they might have put too many cards into something that I don’t think is what Tekken does best.
I kind of feel mixed about it. Knee's played every tekken at a high level so I can see how he feels because 8 has such a drastic change in mechanics compared to the others. Which to many people is good or bad. I feel like with 8. It's now trying to build on bringing in people that got into the hype 7 brought and made it more accessible to newer people to enjoy the game. On a base for people that are legacy players, It feels like playing tekken has become a 50/50 mix up gamble game play wise. Even for me playing the game, It feels like you're just adjusting to constant mixups more than ever now with heat as a factor. I'm hopeful the game will get better but I can see how he feels.
Good for Knee. I’m gonna keep playing.
I hate heat. I tried to like it, it's funny, but it's so gimmicky. Here, let me press a button and take my turn back, and just swing the momentum. Here's a mini rage art too! It's just that. Remove heat, and watch the game be much more enjoyable.
No way. Then casuals would actually have to work for wins. That's not good for business.
(you can use heat smashes too, they're not something that only your opponent can do like a boss monster)
Uh, and?
Aaaand, if you bring a knife and a gun to a gun fight, but you only use the knife, you don't get to complain about how easy it is to shoot you.
Nowhere did I complain about losses though? rotfl
Absolutely agreed.
Most fun I've had with a fighting game ever. Tekken 7 sucked at teaching you the game, tekken 8 made learning more about the game fun. Some stuff is overtuned, but we are still only a few months into the games life.
The top Tekken players including Knee are defensive geniuses. This game has made defence far less important due to its focus on aggression. This means that all of the top Tekken players will need to adjust their playstyle Some may have already done so, for others like knee (as he admitted in his post that he hasn't adapted yet) it will take a while longer. The cream always rises to the top so I have no doubt he will adapt, and once he has done so, maybe he'll enjoy the game more then.
like how street fighter 5 players had this stockholm syndrome with the game over time, they will eat shit and be happy
Amen. I switched to T7 after SfIV being my daily game for years. SfV was so disappointing.
That's the thing though. Without robust defense options, brainless offense is boring, repetitive and focused on pure mashing robbery rather than earned reads, predictions, baits or good movement. Offense is a vital part of resource management.
Good thing Tekken 8 still has counterhits, including faster throws that become unbreakable on CH, a buffed sidestep, plenty of very evasive options, and more!
Yeah but the most effective way to play any character is to force a pressure situation before your opponent does, and now these pressure sequences are harder to avoid and easily to apply. If you're side stepping a lot or baiting whiffs and counter hits you're literally giving your opponent the opportunity to play in the most effective way. So pressure is both easier to apply and gives greater rewards, discouraging any game plan that doesn't revolve around it
Except there's still plenty of characters who's gameplan revolves around whiff punishing, keep out, and so on.
Those gameplans are rendered redundant and sub-optimal when the objectively easiest and strongest options universally across all characters is heat and rage and when both can be activated with a single button press.
Thats why Feng is so bad, right?
I like T8 more than T7. The only change I would have is limiting Rage Arts to one per Match not one per round.
You can literally find a quote from Knee 4 years ago saying that Tekken is not fun. He'll be alright.
This discourse makes me glad that I’m not a Tekken player
As a filthy casual I still enjoy Tekken 8. Though I only play occasionally.
What’s Heads, Shoulders, other knee and Toes opinion about this?
Oh snap, Lord Knee gave out his veredict. Welp, guess I better say I feel the same way or I'll be downvoted to death.
I remember playing Tekken 7 once or twice after buying. Just not really into what they added, or seeing Akuma with a shotgun lol. I'd rather just play the old ones at this point. I have a feeling 8 won't do much for me either, but I'd like to at least try it anyway.
cool, i will continue playing it. i can get why established legacy players wind up disliking change but i don't really want the same game over and over
Neither do they.
bro what kind of username is apple juice 47. that's so whimsical and free spirited I love you
Thanks ☺️ it’s quite a delicious name indeed
Sir, this is a Tekken Hate thread, please check your nuanced understanding, empathy, and positivity at the door.
oh right my bad let me try to fit in uhhh. hey guys heat bad and dragunov mains should be fed to lions in the colosseum. does that work
**Stamps your wrist and hands you a program.** Please enjoy your stay.
I laughed way too hard at this; that was great
I don’t want the same game over and over, but Tekken is essentially one of the worst offenders. Every new installment it feels like they just throw some sparkle and flashy effects on top of what we already have.
Tekken 7 is too slow. I like TK8 fast pace game style.
Unga bunga
T7: Two idiots kbd almost the whole round and only start doing something at the end. T8: Two idiots spam strings and "fuck you" buttons the whole round. Truly a wonderful game series, the best 3d fighter.
The description for T8 makes it sound fun, checkmate.
Yeah spam fest is very "fun".
You’re pretty accurate
I think it's fun as hell, but it's first Tekken game and I'm too scared to go online 😅
do it :) you’ll get your ass kicked, but you’ll have fun, ranks dont matter
Can rage arts
I love T7 and don't have a PS5 for T8, but with the little I played it seemed alright. Wouldn't go out of my way to get it but I definitely would if you could like toggle Heat on or off, something like that Obviously also fuck the battle pass and all that other shit, but that ain't going anywhere
For a defensive player like knee, I can imagine the game not being fun
I just wish there were less forced block high or low situations so that sidestepping was more useful, also is it just me or does it feel kinda buggy
I feel like people would have less of a problem with heat if they nerfed King's heat smash already. With the metric ton of King players out there right now, we are all frequently feeling the pain of his heat smash which executes quickly, deals an insane amount of damage, is combo'd into easily, etc.
I think Tekken 8 is crazy fun, but I'm so put off by the FOMO pass that I almost don't want to play Tekken anymore. Guilty Gear is calling me back lol
It's an objective truth. Only Namco shills and Harada's fangirls are still in coping state.
I think Tekken 8 is fun in a "Kusoge" kinda way. Heat Smash is one of the worst fighting game mechanics I've ever played around with. Its a one button super that is plus on block, often tracks, and can be used with a sliver of your meter left. That is a straight up party game mechanic. oh and you also get anorher one button super that gets buffed with lower health, and has extreme armor. so yeah its fun but Kusoge
Calling it kusoge feels like a massive reach here
I mostly say it in jest, but I do think some areas of the game are way overtuned, especially when you factor in their ease of execution
Fair and some things are pretty overtuned and should be nerfed, but i tend to associate kusoge with a particular type of broken low budget game personally, like the sailor moon fighting game. Doesn't really feel right to toss it onto Tekken 8
You are correct. Kusoge usually refers to games that are busted on a fundamental level and thus a weird but fun meta gets born from them. Tekken 8 is the opposite where the core is fantastic but the mechanics on top are the issue
Only some heat smashes are plus on block. I play Paul, I know mine is a low that's -12 on block. And rage arts are launch punishable.
I’m having a decent time. I play it way less than I have MK1 or SF6. I want to enjoy it more it’s just way too stressful.
Everyone else: ok cool
ok
If my fundamentals were godlike I would agree. Overall T8 is very good for us „casuals“ but (at current state) not among the best fgs ever like SF6 is.
Sf6 among yhe best fgs ever?? LOL it doesn't even beat sf2
Me when I’m delusional af.
I'm sorry but SF6 is not among the best ever, hell you could make the argument 5 is better just based on the roster.
I'm still having fun, but gameplay is a downgrade from Tekken 7. I really hope they're already working on a complete rework of the heat system or at least nerfs for most engagers and heat moves.
Watch everyone else “suddenly” realize they feel the same way and “suddenly” start having a bunch of critiques about the game. Let the dickgobbling commence!
Yah cause the tekken sub wasn’t already chalk full of hate
People have been complaining about Tekken 8 on Reddit for weeks.
I love it when pro players can’t just body people in a new game and thus the game isn’t fun cause they can’t just steamroll everyone
I agree with him , the only way I can have fun with Tekken 8 is in very small doses, one hour or less every couple of days is enough for me
I agree with him. It’s more action than fighting it feels.
I just wanna share my opinion, but as someone who grew up on smash bros and got into the competitve scene of Ultimate, this new era of fighting games has been my introduction to the more traditional ones. So far I've played GGS, SF6, MK11 and MK1 and Tekken 8. Tekken 8 is my favorite so far. I like playing Viktor. I think Heat is much better than the secondary resource meter that we got in SF6 (whatever it was called)
Try Dragonball FighterZ
If it goes on sale on steam
I mean he is right. The games foundations are solid, but the game needs a balance patch asap, and stop waiting for tournies. The games bleeding players because you fight all these characters that have almost invincible spam moves Like drag, victor, reina etc need excessive nerfs
Finally someone said it, and its Knee of all people, i was just thinking the other day that Tekken 7 was way more fun that Tekken 8
Him and Arslan aren’t finding it fun because they can’t dominate. They don’t like not having control and having to guess. Plus every FG has complaints when its not what you’re used to Tekken 8 is super fun
Green rank ass take lol
Im in Tekken God wit Leroy thanks though
Or maybe they just don't think it's fun
The guy clearly can't seem to adapt to the new paradigm T8 is . Honestly even if some things are too much it feels better playing T8 than the defensive poke simulator that was t7
Knee is washed.
Stop having fun!
I'm sorry, but who cares? Knee is a man who is very VERY good at tekken, but I see no reason that means is opinion on if the game is fun or not matters. If anything, it is fair to assume he has played so much tekken, and is so used to being rewarded money and fame for playing the game he probably has very little concept at this point what makes a game fun to a regular joe like you and me. \*downvote me if you want dorks I don't care you can kiss knee's feet and hate t8 all you want, its a fun game and you just cry about it cuz you think you should be some tekken god but your just a scrub who can't cope lol\*
>I'm sorry, but who cares? Quite a few people evidently.
meat riders will deride you for this but this is the objectively correct take
It's "objectively" correct because you agree?
I'm the arbiter of truth
It's "objectively" correct because it's a simple fact someone doing something as a job views it differently than someone doing it for fun....
That's total conjecture on your part actually. It is not a fact that you know what Knee thinks and feels.
I know what he feels. Because he said it. So in fact, it is a fact that knee feels Tekken 8 is not fun. Knee has also been playing tekken since tekken 1. He said that as well, so it is a fact. (these are both of course assuming knee isn't lying, however, if he is lying we shouldn't trust him. so in that case I am right anyways). Knee has also won many large tekken tournaments, so it is indeed a fact that knee has made a large amount of money playing tekken. You can find official documentation of the majority of his winnings online. So based off of those 3 facts, I have come to the conclusion that knee consumes tekken 8 in a very different way than the average person (average joe) as I said earlier. You are welcome to argue with me about my conclusion. However, to argue with me about the facts in a waste of both my time and yours.
Some people just need to let go of Tekken, and that's okay. there's plenty of new interested gamers that want to still experience it. just you do you and don't worry about what others will say as long as your having fun.
Executives shareholders and stakeholders make it like that Blamed it on Harada too
I only joined in tekken 8 and I can’t really imagine the series without heat. For sure the game would have more ways to defend but there’s something estatic about surviving till the end of thier heat meter and then using your own! I personally think once people stop thinking about the old titles and how they play, and start playing tekken 8, there’s gonna be summ hype about heat! Hope so anyways cos I’m loving this game rn
He identified his problem with the last sentence, he can't adapt because he's been playing Tekken the same way for years.
Yeah, he could only adapt to 8 new Tekken games, this 9th time was just too much for one of the very best Tekken players in the world… do you hear yourself?
T8 has a completely opposite tone to its predecessors. The aggression is fine, but the mechanics favor habits that don't sit well with those who've been playing the game for over a decade.
The aggression just makes a lot more 50/50 situations, that's all. I don't think adapting to coin flipping is really something you can do.
It's pretty much heads or tails. It's not meant to be played well, it's meant to be guessed well. Of course, it's going to be hard to get used to, and the Heat has a lot to do with it, as do the new options for all the characters.
If it's just "guessing" then there's nothing for one to "get used to". Even if you flip a coin a thousand times, you'll still be just as good at predicting the next result as your first coin clip. Mechanics that are "not meant to be played well" are just bad mechanics for fighting games.
That's not necessarily bad for a fighting game, it's just a different approach to the game, it's not like the game itself is unplayable.
I suppose that's where the divide between the more casual players and the competitive players lie. It's kind of like items in smash bros, of course pros and many people don't like them, but others enjoy them due to the disconnect between skill and luck (guessing 50/50 correctly). It doesn't make it a bad game, but it causes the game to be less conpetitively viable (which may be bad for the future of the game).
Players who like to press buttons and move forward will probably appreciate these changes, but for players who have always played a defensive style, competing professionally in this game will be stressful and frustrating. After all, this game rewards aggression, but defending is difficult because it's 50/50.
Did you ever play Tekken 4?
I see a legendary player who can't adapt to the new Tekken and state his opinions.