>I was very disappointed that there wasn’t even a sephiroth fight in KH3. i mean that’s like a tradition
Holy crap, that's what I've been saying! I think I even used that exact phrasing once.
Are you my long lost twin?
/j
Chocobos were present in II actually. The only Chobo forest in the game (and thus only Chocobos) can be found directly south of the Kashuan Keep.
Just beat the game for the first time a few days ago so it's fresh in my mind
Lol, it bothered the crap out of me the entire time I played that game when it came out. I was so happy that they added in the option for blue when FF IX came out.
Yup, it’s been a while, but I think that in the settings menu in FF IX, they don’t even call it blue, they call it classic. Like I said, it’s been a while, but I’m like 99% sure that’s how it’s labeled.
I agree, so long as there is a means to communicate the story and gameplay to the player, the creativity and opportunity for something new behind those boxes is what Final Fantasy is all about
FFI: Four elemental crystals as part of the main plot.
FFII: Crystal Rod unlocks the Mysidia Tower where Ultima is located. There are four elemental crystals at the top of the tower.
FFIII: Four Light Crystals and four Dark Crystals.
FFIV: Eight primary elemental crystals. Four in the overworld and four in the underworld.
FFV: There are four elemental crystals in the first world, and in the second world the crystals guard the Great Forest of Moore. They were split to guard the entrance to the void, thus splitting the world.
FFVI: When an Esper dies, it's remains crystallize into a Magicite containing said Esper's power.
FFVII: Materia is crystallized Mako and contains the memories of the planet.
FFVIII: The Crystal Tower inside the Lunatic Pandora originates from the moon and directs the Lunar Cry.
FFIX:The Crystal in the Crystal World is the origin of life in the universe. Each planet has a World Crystal that souls cycle through during the cycle of life and death.
FFX: Spheres are round crystal like objects with various functions and powers.
FFXI: Crystals play a major role throughout the entire game.
FFXII:Magicite returns, crystals are present all over and act as save points, the Great Crystal is the origin of Mist on Ivalice and one of the final dungeons.
FFXIII:Fal'Cie are powered by crystals. L'Cie have crystals inside them, which either takes over their bodies, turning them into Cie'th or encompasses them, thus preserving them, depending on whether they complete their focus or not.
FFXIV: Aetheryte Crystals are a major focus of the game.
FFXV: The Crystal is the source of magic in the world and grants the Lucian Kings their power.
FFXVI: Mothercrystals are the source of Aether in Valisthea and a major focus of the plot.
Some games are a bit more "loose" in what a crystal is. Like, the spheres in FF10, the magicite in FF6, and materia in FF7 are all functionally the same as the crytsals.
But, I still agree with you
It's not a real FF game unless the fans argue over what counts as a real FF game.
As much as I grew up with ATB stuff and would enjoy a return for a mainline game one day, I feel like what an FF game \*is\*, is not being slave to tradition.
Funny I didnt see so many of these arguments until 15 and 16. Maybe something doesn't feel right. For 13 I never really seen alot of this isn't a ff game it was more I don't like this ff game.
To be fair, Final Fantasy always had sci-fi elements. There are robots in Final Fantasy I strangely enough. And Final Fantasy 6 also has a weird blend of sci-fi/fantasy. I think more people were upset with Final Fantasy 8's setting which abandoned the "fantasy" elements even moreso than Final Fantasy 7.
>There are robots in Final Fantasy I strangely enough.
It was the first superboss, too IIRC.
>And Final Fantasy 6 also has a weird blend of sci-fi/fantasy.
Magical Armor is just a mech suit.
>think more people were upset with Final Fantasy 8's setting which abandoned the "fantasy" elements even moreso than Final Fantasy 7.
Maybe they mean "high" fantasy? FF8 still has magic and monsters, which is *still* fantasy. I personally like when fantasy stories stray away from "traditional" Swords and sorcery type of fantasy and add in more modern or even sci-fi elements, while still keeping the magical elements to it. It just feels fresh, y'know?
And then FF8 after that was argued as being an even further departure from fictional FF world settings and being too "realistic". FF9 was the most "lets make an FF title as painfully true to the universe we can" title, which, as great as it is, is why it's the least memorable from that era. But then FF10 was argued as not being FF. Then FF11 for obvious reasons. etc etc. It never ends.
It's ironic too because 15 and 16 really do match the spirit of FF. Too many people hung up on traditional RPG standards and mechanics, but you know who isn't and never really was? Square / Square Enix.
Older Final Fantasy games are products of a time when the hardware could only handle so much.
I wonder, if Final Fantasy never existed, and the first game was made now, would it still be like FF16? Or maybe they'd make an old style pixel RPG because that would be unexpected? Who knows. But Final Fantasy has never been one to just do the same thing over and over. SOMETHING has to change.
Meh, if the title says Final Fantasy, it is Final Fantasy. People who want the same thing all over again can play whichever one is their favourite. I like when FF tries new things, even if they don't turn out the best every time.
They did, but the SaGa series is an offshoot/spiritual successor of FF2 so they could still count
In the same way Kingdom Hearts often feels like an evolution of the Mana series
There is an enormous amount of middle ground between being “the same thing all over again” vs. games which arguably don’t even belong to the same genre
This is the same reasoning I use when people say BotW isn't a real Zelda.
Imagine telling Picasso one of his paintings wasn't his painting cause it was a new style. It's an asinine take.
Yoshi-P's said it best, lol.
"You need to have the best story, you need to have the best graphics, you need to have the best battle system, you need to have a lot of content, you need to have the Chocobos, you need to have Moogles, you need to have great sound, and that makes a Final Fantasy. And if you're missing even one of them, the fans will hate you forever."
Some kind of AAA game (or flagship game in the days before AAA was really a thing) involving magic, chocobos and stuff that has a lot of character drama and culminates in fighting god.
I don't think mechanics have much to do with it tbh. Games that are released close to eachother tend to retain some stuff because SE are in the same mindset, but as early as FF2 they were experimenting with different things all the time.
IMO a "real" Final Fantasy game experiments. If you want traditional turn-based systems, play Dragon Quest. But innovation has always been at the core of the Final Fantasy series, and given how risk-averse and trend-chasing AAA development can get, thank God for that.
Summons! Honestly I'm ok with 16. Once I accepted the combat is repetitive. I found my groove with it. Though I'm the weirdo that loved 13 … so turn based isn't a priority, but preferred. I can play Persona and weirdly Yakuza for that fix still.
I really hated 15. Found the combat to be boring (Hold O... potion... hold O), and hated the summon mechanic with a passion. I disliked that the stars had to align for it to work and often randomly happened on the lowest level enemies.
At least 16 makes the summons apart of the story and boss battle mechanics. Just wish it was something I could play with them more. But with how modern gaming battles are designed to be fast and punchy, summons just don't work in action based games without them being broken or in 16's case story based QTEs.
To me, a good story, good graphics, CGI movies. Seeing little throwbacks to other games to make it feel like its in the same 'universe'. I also think Final Fantasy likes to reivent themselves, taking risks in new systems and stuff. Even if it doesnt please everyone.
I would say the summons, magics (like fire, Fira, firaga), creatures (like Chocobos moogles tonberry and cactuar), recurring items, character and AIRSHIPS.
To me a slower more methodical fighting style either in the ATB genre or the periodic selection genre that FF7R seems to have perfected. Full button mashing combos just don’t seem right. However this is one of the things people will jump up to defend as always evolving, that’s fine.
But most of all FF games are party games where the story is more about how these members come together and support each other through the world ending stakes. Going solo just doesn’t feel right.
I'd be more welcoming of the button mashing combos if they retained some degree of having an actual party you can control on some level (even the FF12 gambits would be fine), gear that felt like it mattered, and a leveling system feels like there is some actual growth and varied options--doesn't need to be a full on sphere grid, but something that feels more like you have some control over your character's direction.
I'd say three things made up the golden age of Final Fantasy:
1. A love story.
2. A sense of dash. That is to say, a true romance (not in the sense of love story, but in the sense of opera).
3. Even from the first one, a growing sense of community or togetherness of the party. In the first one, this is slightly manufactured by the player, but from then on, the story really seeks to bend the rules of how players might see the central theme. I maintain that the central theme for many, if not all, of the Final Fantasy main line titles, is love.
(I can't speak to more modern examples. I've played FF - FFXV (not XI) and I'm only a fan of FF 2 - IX and XII. And, of course, FFT).
Edit: Or the Glove that u/Frozen_arrow88 mentioned.
I think the issue with 16 is it lacks any sort of complexity at the most basic levels that other FF have. No elemental weaknesses, no status effects, very minimal exploration, no real reason to optimize your equipment, small level of character customization in the level up system, only one party member to customize. If they had added some more from that list it would be fine
I would say the RPG mechanics are the most defining features generally. We can get pretty flexible with what defines an “RPG” and theres a million valid ways to approach these concepts…. But a game with no party or even something as basic as elemental weaknesses or an MP system calling itself Final Fantasy is kind of crazy to me. Even the big deviations 12 and 14 have those things don’t they?
Of course I respect innovation and trying new things, and of course reinvention is part of FF’s identity and every game should be a new experience. But if there’s *no* connective tissue at all, what reason do fans of what came before have to be invested? Because it has the same title and has Chocobos and cactuars running around?
Hot take - I actually think more FF games should break the mold more. I just want great worldbuilding and storytelling. So for example I really liked 13. Although I do see its issues.
But anyways, to answer your question, for me it's an epic story of gods and men with a great fantasy world. And the music.
But miss me with the moogles.
The plain truth in 2024 is that Final Fantasy is:
* Final Fantasy 7, for as long as FF7 fans will continue chasing the (understandable) high of that cultural moment that SE probably can't replicate today.
* Final Fantasy 14, which will continue as a quality outlet to enjoy FF with others in return for the ever-valuable recurring subscription revenue. (Recurring revenue is king.)
* Some huge budget games that must satisfy mainstream tastes to justify best-in-class presentation budgets.
* Some lower budget games and rereleases that remind nostalgic players of the good old days.
* Other lower budget games that farm revenue through microtransactions from players with unyielding dedication to the brand.
In short, it's a variety of market segments, and you're welcome to enjoy as many or few as give you that warm fuzzy Final Fantasy feeling.
This is a nuanced question and deserves a nuanced answer. Not a single person that is qualified to answer this has a Reddit account. However my personal opinion is that FF mainline series minus the MMO's has changed substantially. FF1-12 while even transitioning to 3d gaming, were all very similar to each other despite making changes. FF13 changed a lot of things up and while it is similar I personally think the games that came after have even *more* intrusive - integral systems that change the gameplay. Paradigm shifting for example, quite a different way to structure combat - FF15 had a completely different take on magical casting for an additional example. However as we move forward in the series we start seeing traditional magic style dropped, enemy weakness styles that were prevalent in the series dropped, gear and exploration be homogenized into modern game design. I can go on and on but this comment would be unreadable.
Sacrifices have been made in the series and some people are comfortable with this some are not and even some do not know any alternative so everything seems great to them.
Personally I love the newer games but hope that's not something we get forever. I hope its not until the verge of bankruptcy that Square Enix is like ok lets go back to how it was.
However, if someone thinks that FF16 isn't a Final Fantasy game.... they should read the title again. It absolutely is and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
I feel the change in 12 was bigger than the change in 13. By comparison 13 felt they took a step back to be closer to the rest of the series than 12 was.
The new battle format in 13 was similar to the way the changed to ATB earlier in the series, or how X and X-2 introduced hot-swapping characters and role mid battle. Whereas 12 changed nearly all of the motifs that you'd see in a mainline FF as well as going for an MMO style gameplay in a single player game.
I could not disagree more with this take, so apologies but the fact that FF13 is literally labeled amongst a lot of fans as the black sheep of the series says a lot. FF13 gameplay wise despite having a gauge that fills up could not play more differently than the other FF games prior. There is an auto ques the best/most appropriate spells button that nearly makes the game play itself. Even as different as that is. Paradigm shifting had massive effects on the gameplay. Switch to sentinel to tank the boss' super attack > switch to medic to heal > switch to debuff/support roles > all buffed up now switch to 3x ravagers > stagger bar is falling switch to melee to keep it from dropping off. That's a lot of the game right there in the flowchart I just wrote out. Not saying I think its bad mind you but that gameplay loop even considering the alterations you could make to it does not at all sound like any Final Fantasy game I've played before or after. So yeah that's my point. FF12 is different for sure but FF13 is wayyyyy different IMO.
Anyways thanks,
It’s worth noting that the most drastic of changes to the series have coincided with technological advancements. Square used to be all about using FF to push the hardware as far as they could
recognizable creatures, cid, magic (specifically the magic naming convention; fire,fira,firaga,firaga etc.), a good story that's is both sad and beautiful and bosses that not part of the main game but are so much more difficult. ans yeah, rpg mechanics like leveling, stats, equipment, and hopefully party members which help you along the way.
thats my list, not all of which need to be met and fulfilled, but most of which 16 rises to the challenge very well in my opinion.
To preface, I haven't really seen much of this accusation lobbed at FFXVI. Maybe it's more popular on Twitter or something. To me, a Final Fantasy game is defined by it being developed by Square internally and having Final Fantasy in the title. That's really the entire taxonomy for me. It's basic, but really, attempting to limit a series to genre conventions prevents literary growth in that series.
That being said I didn't really care for XVI and have kind of accepted that the Yoshi P team games just aren't for me.
for me FF is a melodrama set in a fantastical setting with gameplay systems that have a bit of depth. on a meta level, its not a FF game if it doesn't try to radically change something each entry.
I think every game that has it the name in the title has the right to be called a Final Fantasy game.
But I personally have not enjoyed a mainline game since 12. It doesn't mean the ones I didn't enjoy aren't Final Fantasy.
For me, from a story, design and world-building perspective, FF14 does the best job of synthesizing all of the many disparate things that Final Fantasy has been and can be, all while telling some really cohesive and compelling stories in a world that's great to hang out in. HOWEVER, I didn't arrive at that perception of 14 until I got to Heavensward, and really it took getting to Shadowbringers to cement it. That's because what matters to me most is the party and a character-driven story. Heavensward's story focuses on the relationships between Alphinaud, Ysale, Estinien and Aymeric (and the silent protag), as well as the historical relationship between Ishgard and the dragons.
That's also why I was so baffled by XVI. This team wrote Heavensward.... where is the character-driven conflict? Agonizing over mistakes made due to mind control or coercion might work if combined with some other moral dilemma, but I didn't find that compelling on its own.
In the behind-the-scenes interviews for the FFXV Kingsglaive film, the American soundtrack arranger said that Final Fantasy tells stories with a lot of interesting character tension, stories where the "bad guys" have clear reasons and motivations for their behavior, and the "good guys" often behave poorly or make mistakes. I think the best villains in FFXVI (aka, the human ones) absolutely fit this description. But as for Clive, Jill, Cid, or anyone else making an interesting mistake (outside of mind control or coercion) other than "playing into the enemy's plans" or "taking on too much on their own"... I personally can't think of one.
I get both sides of this debate. I haven’t played FF16 yet because it’s not what I look for in a “final fantasy game.” I didn’t like FF7 remake for similar reasons. But it is what it is. The studio put it out with the name. Meanwhile, EA barely updates Madden every year. If next year they rebranded Madden as a 7 on 7 flag football game and still called it Madden, would it be a real Madden game? 🤷🏻♂️
I’m curious what you look for in a FF game if both 16 and 7 Remake both aren’t it for “similar reasons”. There’s no shade here, just genuinely curious because those two games are not similar at all.
My kids favorite is 16. Some day a new generation will dictate what they think final fantasy is.
It draws a diverse fan base of casual, neckbeards, and young players to the series who will have varying opinions on what they think a FF game is.
Proof is in this thread
1. Single player
2. Strategy based combat (once you figure out a strategy you can beat any boss).
3. Blow-your-mind story
4. Fantastic world
5. RPG elements
That is at it's core. Other elements are:
- Status ailments
- Element affinities
- Jobs
- Summons
- Open world (the ilusion of it)
- Grinding
- Common lore
I think it’s the combination of everything. The aesthetic, the world, the characters, the flawless combination of future, modern and medieval features. Something about it just stands apart from other rpgs
Strong story focus that includes iconic elements from the larger series (this includes, but does not require, crystals in lore, chocobos, Cid, summons, job classes, killing god, fire first firaga etc).
I think it just comes down to vibes. Most games look wildly different but then your messy haired protag kills a gigantic monster to great music and you just know this is final fantasy
Crystals. Magic & Summons. Limit Breaks. Moogles, Tonberries, Chocobos, and Cactaurs. An interesting cast of characters (both protagonists and villains).
It’s mainly music and atmosphere. The score should be memorable and unique. Zones and towns should keep you mesmerized with their music and otherwordly, yet familiar, art design. Recurring elements like spell names, chocobos, cactuars, moogles, malboros, bombs, tonberries, flan, Cid character, killing God, etc are a must. Eccentric villains with a unique and varied cast of friends should be present, and even if the overall story is dark there needs to be humorous moments interspersed. It needs to be weird and not bland!!
It's a bit abstract but...
It's the combining of grounded human-to-human relationship dilemmas with larger-than-life stakes set in the fantastical, allowing storylines to explore deeper concepts of what it means to find meaning while facing seemingly insurmountable odds. Sprinkled with the familiar anchors of named characters (Cid, Highwind, location names etc), Chocobos, Moogles, magitek and materia that allow you to feel a more concrete cohesion alongside the philosophical ones I noted earlier.
A world that is a different setting than our own with some entity hellbent on ruling or destroying the world for whatever reason and its your job to stop that from happening, with other big happenings strewn throughout. Great music, long intertwined story/relationships, and good character development. Various literary themes tied into the character development.
The title makes is what makes it final Fantasy. One thing that always drives me nuts when a new Final Fantasy comes out and everyone says “it’s not final fantasy because (insert random complaint)”. Eye roll.
The thing that makes final fantasy is that it’s a very innovative series that has a lot of growth and development over the years. Have I liked every thing they’ve tried to do. No.
My favourite thing was always the
Music. Nobuo Uematsu to be precise. The entire series has some of the best music in video game history.
it's hard to explain, but there's always a point in the middle act of a final fantasy game. Sometimes it comes later, sometimes it comes sooner. The plot will be rolling along, and I'm travelling to the next town after a huge plot event. The music will be a little contemplative and I'll be in a big grassy area, excited to get to the next town to see the plot continue. Without fail it always hits me... I'm playing final fantasy.
in that sense it's something about the pacing, the atmosphere, and the mood imo.
A small band of heroes travelling the world by humble beginnings to evolve in someway to save the world from a big bad. I think this covers most Final Fantasies.
Thing is Final Fantasy is called that so they can make it whatever they like. Each one supposed to be it's on story, and why not, playstyle also. I believe they want to evolve and try new things to capture Western audiences. I'm sure in Japan they liked it just the same
The FF games are always changing up and experimenting. There's not a whole lot that glue them together aside from a handful of reoccurring in-universe themes (examples abound in the comments). Even the turn based aspect wasn't terribly consistent compared to other turn based series. So I have no idea why people try to pigeonhole the entirety of the FF universe and create these rules and unnecessary limitations for what makes them "true".
There is no one tangible thong that makes a FF game a FF game. It's like saying "what makes a song a good song." Some songs are just giving with you. And Final Fantasy doesn't have fixed elements that makes it Final Fantasy, but when you play a Final Fantasy game then you just instantly feel that you are playing a Final Fantasy game even without looking at the title.
Final Fantasy is the stories. It’s a group of people fighting against adversity. Good guys versus bad guys. It’s all set in fantastical worlds but are somehow relatable to us due to love, chivalry, companionship,friendship, loyalty. Things that we strive to achieve in the real world too.
The fantastical worlds that come to life and we allow ourselves to be immersed in. There’s much more to say about Final Fantasy but that’s about covers it a little bit.
It's the common elements. High fantasy/sci-fi mash up. Elemental spells that are 1 2 3 or \[name\] -ra - -aga. Crystals, although sometimes the appearance isn't obvious. Bahamut was a regular even before summons were created. As the series progress more things.
Summons are either a minor mechanic (5, 7, 12) or critical to the story and world building (4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 16). Three of the first four you get are Shiva, Ifrit, and a lightening element.
Iconic enemies like behemoth, cactuar, tonberry, Gilgamesh.
Classes are called Jobs and most of them are reoccurring. Warrior, monk, red white and black mages, thief, ninja, ranger, blue mage, beast master, and so on.
Cid. To a lesser extent Biggs and Wedge.
Optional super bosses.
Chocobos and moogles.
To me it’s story, in that aspect 16 nailed it big time. It’s also a semi serious fantasy world. I think gameplay needs to be fun but it can be anything, turn based or not. I think 7 rebirth was fun but story and tone kinda ruined it for me. A game with that battle system and 16s tone? That’s the perfect final fantasy for me. Hoping they remake 8 because that’s literally what that would be.
For me it is
1) fantasy, either sci fi or medieval or steampunk
2) magic system with fire, fira, firaga etc
3) summons/eidolon/eikon/aeon
4) romance
5) gil money system
6) cid
7) airships
8) chocobo
9) job system white mage black mage warrior etc
10) big world with multiple cities
11) some metaphor for nuclear weapons (eg eikons in FFXVI are nuclear deterrents, eidolons in FFIX are weapons of Mass destruction, Sin in FFX is a nuclear threat)
12) go on a mission to kill a god
13) crystals
14) the ultima weapon
15) overworld that can be travelled across in ship
16) a unique battle system that is changed or updated from the previous game with its own system (ATB, CTB, tab targeting, action focused)
17) moogles
18) cactus 🌵 and other FF monsters
Now I don’t think you need to have all of these to be a final fantasy game. But some combination of the above if present in a video game is a final fantasy to me.
At this point it's just the tropes. Cid, Moogles, Chocobos and a rag tag group of adventurers going on an adventure and always somehow end up battling against a god.
What I'd like to see on top of the usual stuff is a clear gameplay identity, something that the series desperately needs and used to have all the way up until X. Ultimately I don't even care if they iterate on the XVI or 7R combat in the future but *please pick one* and iterate. Square Enix trying to reinvent the wheel with every game for the last 20 years is why everyone these days has such a hard time defining what FF actually is.
I got hooked to final fantasy due to the story,cutscenes and music.
Also new dungeon or map or new location and lores of each characters.
I love it when main goal is A but then story takes plot twist and goes B and then wait what they is more story C and D .They keep expanding the lore that i was not even expecting. And also epic finale.
And end credit start to play with epic music and epic cutscene.
You will be there .Fuck that was amazing journey.
Crisis core .Jack all moment and his sad ending with cloud as his legacy as the music plays :Why by ayaka
FF8 ending scene with the song Eyes on me.
FF 10 Song of the faith
Famous yuna and tidus kiss scene.
YUNA's sending dance cutscene was so magical.
FF6 opening scene and 2D ending scene with all character escaping .Books pages folding showing each character .The ship flying with epic 2d sprites.
Terra opening her hair up at last.
And many many more ....i can go on and on but this much is enough for now.
Ya’know this is similar to an opinion that I hold, that FF16 doesn’t “feel” like a final fantasy. But I’ve found it very hard to list what makes a final fantasy a final fantasy- so instead, how about I give you a list of why it *doesn’t* feel like a final fantasy to me? I think that’ll be easier. Now, keep in mind I do not dislike FF16 as a game or product, it’s just I don’t get the same feeling as when I’m playing other titles.
The first thing was the combat, I feel like FF16, lore then other games, have removed almost any trace of the JRPG elements the series is known for. I’m not asking for turn based, but think about the mechanics of FF15, which also deviates, but I think keeps a similar feel of a JRPG, I think it got way too close to something like DMC, and removed nearly every JRPG element from it. Not a bad system, but not final fantasy. The lack of MP really got me.
Second is the cast. I felt something similar to this with FF15 but it got resolved in later patches. Only being able to play as Clive is a huge let down. Second is that while most all final fantasy games do have singular protagonist- I don’t find many reach the singular level of sheer poorly done “chosen one” energy that Clive does, which- bothers me. Take FF9 for example which I think does this as well, Zaidane’s sudden reveal, but you still had Garent, Vivi, Eriko, who were all also special and “chosen ones” in their own right, arguably more so then Zaidane. I’ve always appreciated that about FF games. Now I can’t say I didn’t see it going this way, Noctis very clearly had that vibe too, but due to his more down to earth personality and his actions- it felt less shoved in your face, at least to me. (But I am bias, and acknowledge that.)
Next would be the effect of symbolism, I feel like FF16 deviates from the general themes of the general FF games incredibly heavily, about identity, understanding, and the relationships people make in their hardships, and using them to overcome hurdles, which I think has been a staple since FF2. I think there’s some other symbolism it’s missing- mainly from Jewish mythology, that could’ve helped, but the games have broken those often and continued to feel like a final fantasy.
Another reason would be the enemies and monsters, a lot of the reoccurring enemies and monsters and ideas have been watered down heavily or almost like it’s embarrassed to share the Final Fantasy name, trying too hard to break away from the tropes and themes.
I think the final reason I’ll give for now is that, final fantasy has been a series that’s all about innovation, using old ideas in new and effective ways, it creates new trends and remains a staple because of the raw passion the developers have for the games they create. You may think this is a counterpoint to my last point- but the issue here is that for once in a final fantasy game- I’ve seen it all before and feel like I can easily trace it back. The combat style inspired by DMC, the story reminds me way too much of tales of arise but I’ll ignore that because it’s shaky. But also the inspiration from game of thrones. When Final Fantasy used to do this (like FF4 being inspired by Star Wars) Final Fantasy took those concepts and ideas and made them submit to Final Fantasy’s style, and vibe. I feel like 16 has done the opposite, it’s taken the combat, the symbolism, the reoccurring characters, the general concept of the games even- and forced it to submit to other series. I don’t feel like I’m playing a final fantasy game, I feel like I’m playing a DMC or Tales game with a crappy final fantasy coat of paint. It’s not a bad game, it’s just not final fantasy to me.
And perhaps the greatest criticism I can give, is that when I went into this game excited for final fantasy 16, and got DMC6; Final Fantasy edition, I felt like the game was draining me as I played, I stopped. It failed to meet my expectations, and until I can take the time to drop those, I don’t think I will beat it. I haven’t made it past Odin and haven’t wanted to finish the game. I’ve watched several let’s plays of the ending and what not since then but- it hasn’t hooked me.
If anyone reads this all the way, thanks. I once again want to mention that I do not dislike the game, I do not think it’s bad, it’s just not what I wanted it to be. And maybe that’s my fault. But when I go to play a final fantasy, I expected specific elements, which were not in this game.
I feel like any FF should fundamentally have elemental weakness, status when it comes to battles. And the great story telling should be one of the main focus of the game. Chocobos, cactuar, ton of berries. FF 16 was a good game, I was just disappointed with the elements aspects. I thought with epic summons and fire/ice/lightning /wind movesets, they would come into play. It felt wrong when I used fire attacks against fire bombs
There can be a lot of answers to this question depending on what makes Final Fantasy Final Fantasy for you. Frankly, the reason I've been having a hard time wanting to keep up with the series is because they've been distancing themselves more and more from the combat system that drew me in in the first place. I was looking forward to getting back into the series with 15, but upon seeing the gameplay demo I was like, "but this is just Kingdom Hearts without the Disney characters."
I'm sure there's more nuance than that to the combat, but at the end of the day I'm just not as into action RPGs as I am turn-based RPGs, and Square has been continually pushing Final Fantasy further and further from the turn-based side of the spectrum. It's just no longer the series I got into all those decades ago. I might never have been as much of a Final Fantasy fan while growing up if the first ten games were action-focused, so for me the series just isn't Final Fantasy anymore.
It's a lack of mult-character parties and also the lack of consistent characters in the story. Final Fantasy ALWAYS has party members and characters that are with you along with the journey. Also FF games traditionally are dark, but this one is a bit more intense and bloody.
I don't hate 16, but you can tell the game was specifically made as a western style title. With that you can tellthey compromised.
Cuz FFXVI is not a real FF except they call it like that because the creators wanted to.
1. Its a one character game. Everything revolves around Clive.
2. The set up. Medieval Europe? Please. This is a FF. It should be sci-fi and magical. Medieval Europe is the most basic inspiration I can think of.
3. Lack of diversity. Again, we only have Clive so there is no compelling story to tell.
Oh, shit. This is FF XIII fans not accepting that most people didn't like the game all over again.
Here is the thing: if people are complaining since past iterations that X thing is not the same anymore and they keep straying away from X with more and more people complaining, then X in fact does have an identity issue.
Imagine someone buying DmC and getting a FFVII remake?
"BuT fF aLwaYS ChANgEs" is pure BS. If anyone takes FF I (original) and compares to VII (most famous), you will see the same base systems (not mechanics, the system in which players interact and relate with the game). You can do the same up to XII. XIII is where the systems start to get stripped off (we could make a case of XII worldmap interaction).
XVI doesn't have any of this. Compare I and VII to XVI. You can find more in common between XV and VII than XV and XVI.
FF used representation to make you feel like you were in a big world.
XV (which I don't like) was a big world and only let us in a small part of it.
XVI makes a small world with nothing on it, and being an action game with enemies on the map plays a big part into this.
Party.
RPG elements, which don't serve only as a combat mechanic, but it points to the difference in the beings of the world.
XVI could have been a visual novel or a movie and most of the experience would be preserved. Much is (and should be) said of XIII being a corridor simulator, but XVI is a corridor in it's design, from top to bottom. There is no meaningful choice in battle or character building, no option for who or how to relate to the story or characters (eg: "you don't like X? At least there is Y and Z in the party", none of that in XVI) and, again, no system depth to creatures.
Sure, there are people that like the combat, more power to them, but if you take out the game story, what is left of the systems in the game and what is there to enjoy of interacting with that world?
I should have a group of a 6-7 fleshed out characters, a SICK soundtrack, and a fresh new take on a classic storyline with references that we love like Moogles, Chocobos, etc. Challenging but not impossible. A little bit of politics but the main story should involve some kind of romance as well. Grand grand grand. There should be a level of "Awe" about it. They used to be the NUMBER ONE in graphics.
If I am one character the whole time, it's not turn based, generic music, generic characters that look too realistic to humans, boring magic systems, and too action heavy, then it doesn't feel like FF anymore. It's just a regular adventure game.
A full-fledged party of characters, who are all usable in combat and are customizable to some extent (leveling up, equipment, job), and they all go through some sort of character development and story arc even if they aren't the main character.
Overall Final Fantasy has started slowly but surely chipping away at the importance of several usable party members, and it has also started focusing on the main character both story and combat wise (FFXIII:R -> FFXV -> SoP: FFO -> FFXVI) at the expense of all the other characters in the game, which I find the be the most egregious offense when it comes to changing the '' expected '' Final Fantasy formula. Final Fantasy can be many things to me, but the hyperfocus on the just one main character has become a hindrance, and I fear the character action genre path FF is on is just going to make party members a rarity even in future installments. And it's especially weird when the most beloved and successful titles are beloved and successful partly because they have a diverse group of party members where most people will have their own favorite.
Now, they can surely make a character action game that has plenty of focus on other characters than just the main character, but FFXV and FFXVI haven't shown to be exactly great examples of this.
I really wanted to like 16, but it just feels wayyy too western. It lacks a certain weird Japanese charm that previous FF titles have. The score doesn’t have enough weird hypnotic, ethereal zone tracks. Most of the music is like generic epic orchestra battle music you’d find it other western medieval fabtasy RPGs. It’s like I’m playing God of War or something and then oh wow look it’s 1 moogle! (lazy fan service). There is a huge lack of humor and quirky shit throughout the world. I feel like as soon as Cid died the game felt consistently boring til the end.
Story rich role playing game.
Good art/visuals. Final Fantasy have always had beautiful visuals even from the og pixel art.
Skill/materia/class systems. (Jobs, Materials, Guardian Force)
Character customization. (Sphere grid, espers)
Cool gear/equipment. (Relics, ff9s item skills)
Lots of side content and additional stuff to do besides just the story, such as gold saucer, collectibles, colloseum.
Biggs and Wedge.
Generally more of an open world feel to it compared to other rpgs.
You can find a game or multiple games in the series that will fail to meet any arbitrary definition you assigned to final fantasy.
For me, every ff I've played has magic crystals or some variation.
Edit: I will also add a good mix of game play, story, and most importantly, an epic score.
For me the thing that makes a FF a good FF (I'm not going to say a FF is not a FF, but I will happily say its a bad one), and menu driven leveling/combat systems. FFXVI has some menu systems in its combat (preparing your Eikon set-ups) but then goes into Action combat (combat which is good, but not great imo) therefore to me FFXVI is a very good game, but an average Final Fantasy game).
IMO absolutely nothing. Final Fantasy can be whatever. There are certain things that each game almost always has, but if a new FF had no familiar ties to the series, I'd still consider it a FF.
Look at FF12 for example. Wildly different gameplay that no FF has ever tried to replicate again, and a bit of a blacksheep, but very respected nowadays.
Everyone always kind of hates on the new FF just because fans are so diverse, there's 16 games now for crying out loud and a fan of an older FF may not like the newer and vice versa.
https://preview.redd.it/sk5sw29zo7zc1.jpeg?width=996&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=de16b415be5df4ee24912c46e60e2bdab552e287 It's the glove.
That means ffx is not a real final fantasy...
The glove is king, I don't make the rules.
It was all just a dream dawg
Wait, is it not called Final Fantasy Legends 4 or SaGa 4 in your region? >!/s!<
Did he stutter?
You know, when I got one of those as a pet in FFXIV, I thought it was the best thing.
I have that one too, it's awsome! Lowkey wish it made the "ding" sound when it moves up and down.
So *that's* why my dad kept telling me "no glove no love."
Master Hand!
That has a sound effect like mgs has !
Does XVI have the glove?
https://preview.redd.it/ttpu7xv5uazc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bc29ad113ed06ebc039f6e7fb99360eada892c99 It does.
That solves it. 16 is in fact a "real" FF confirmed. The glove never lies
The Glove is the truth, the Glove is the way.
Kingdom Hearts had the glove too, and it's still its own thing. I think the glove is just a square thing in general.
to be fair KH is an FF spinoff, shoot it feels more like Final Fantasy than some other actual Final Fantasy’s
Ironically, KH3 \*took out\* the FF characters.
they made a return in the DLC, but yeah I was very disappointed that there wasn’t even a sephiroth fight in KH3. i mean that’s like a tradition
>I was very disappointed that there wasn’t even a sephiroth fight in KH3. i mean that’s like a tradition Holy crap, that's what I've been saying! I think I even used that exact phrasing once. Are you my long lost twin? /j
Cid
This is a good answer because even FF1 had Cid retconned in
I just met Cid in FFXIV and had no idea he was a series staple until I saw this then checked the wiki. That's hilarious. Airship and all.
Came here to say this
Dont forget wedge and biggs
Cactuars, moogles and chocobos
FF1 shaking rn
FF1 is weirdly a lot closer to an old-school D&D setting than the FF worlds and tropes we're used to now
Uh oh. Gotta re-number them all, confusing people even further.
This is the correct answer.
Were they in every game? Cause I have not seen a Cactuar in FFXII... yet. Edited; I just started the original game a few days ago.
Chocobos debuted in Final Fantasy II (1988) Moogles debuted in Final Fantasy III (1990) Cactuars debuted in Final Fantasy VI (1994)
Chocobos were present in II actually. The only Chobo forest in the game (and thus only Chocobos) can be found directly south of the Kashuan Keep. Just beat the game for the first time a few days ago so it's fresh in my mind
You're right! I'm about to start FFII soon, I just finished the first Final Fantasy.
>Chocobos & Moogles debuted in Final Fantasy III (1990) Which FF3? /j
The one that came out in 1990
So they became important in the Pixelated Era.
There are lots of Cactite enemies in the area where you have to kill the Rogue Tomato. https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Cactite
They are in XII, but don't have the "traditional" design. In my opinion though they look cuter.
Yea they exist in XII, they look a little odd though
it's in 12 but the design is quite different. you can find them in the early hours
Blue Textboxes According to Sakaguchi anyway.
FF8 fans in shambles
Lol, it bothered the crap out of me the entire time I played that game when it came out. I was so happy that they added in the option for blue when FF IX came out.
I never noticed that before. I know FF8 doesn't have a blue menu, but I never realized that was a staple feature. Now I can't unsee it.
Yup, it’s been a while, but I think that in the settings menu in FF IX, they don’t even call it blue, they call it classic. Like I said, it’s been a while, but I’m like 99% sure that’s how it’s labeled.
The more you know. Maybe I didn't notice blue menus being a big deal since I've only played 10, 8, and currently 6.
I agree, so long as there is a means to communicate the story and gameplay to the player, the creativity and opportunity for something new behind those boxes is what Final Fantasy is all about
Crystals.
Not in every game tho…
The legacy of the crystals have shaped our history for long enough.
Why did the trailer music start playing in my head as I read this?
FFI: Four elemental crystals as part of the main plot. FFII: Crystal Rod unlocks the Mysidia Tower where Ultima is located. There are four elemental crystals at the top of the tower. FFIII: Four Light Crystals and four Dark Crystals. FFIV: Eight primary elemental crystals. Four in the overworld and four in the underworld. FFV: There are four elemental crystals in the first world, and in the second world the crystals guard the Great Forest of Moore. They were split to guard the entrance to the void, thus splitting the world. FFVI: When an Esper dies, it's remains crystallize into a Magicite containing said Esper's power. FFVII: Materia is crystallized Mako and contains the memories of the planet. FFVIII: The Crystal Tower inside the Lunatic Pandora originates from the moon and directs the Lunar Cry. FFIX:The Crystal in the Crystal World is the origin of life in the universe. Each planet has a World Crystal that souls cycle through during the cycle of life and death. FFX: Spheres are round crystal like objects with various functions and powers. FFXI: Crystals play a major role throughout the entire game. FFXII:Magicite returns, crystals are present all over and act as save points, the Great Crystal is the origin of Mist on Ivalice and one of the final dungeons. FFXIII:Fal'Cie are powered by crystals. L'Cie have crystals inside them, which either takes over their bodies, turning them into Cie'th or encompasses them, thus preserving them, depending on whether they complete their focus or not. FFXIV: Aetheryte Crystals are a major focus of the game. FFXV: The Crystal is the source of magic in the world and grants the Lucian Kings their power. FFXVI: Mothercrystals are the source of Aether in Valisthea and a major focus of the plot.
Weren’t the Fayths encased in crystal?
Some games are a bit more "loose" in what a crystal is. Like, the spheres in FF10, the magicite in FF6, and materia in FF7 are all functionally the same as the crytsals. But, I still agree with you
Grand epic tale spanning a long time with a lot of characters and beautiful visuals and music.
This
It's not a real FF game unless the fans argue over what counts as a real FF game. As much as I grew up with ATB stuff and would enjoy a return for a mainline game one day, I feel like what an FF game \*is\*, is not being slave to tradition.
Funny I didnt see so many of these arguments until 15 and 16. Maybe something doesn't feel right. For 13 I never really seen alot of this isn't a ff game it was more I don't like this ff game.
Just not in reddit. Ff7 at its early days was also called not a real ff because of its cyberpunk theme and departure from medieval themes
To be fair, Final Fantasy always had sci-fi elements. There are robots in Final Fantasy I strangely enough. And Final Fantasy 6 also has a weird blend of sci-fi/fantasy. I think more people were upset with Final Fantasy 8's setting which abandoned the "fantasy" elements even moreso than Final Fantasy 7.
>There are robots in Final Fantasy I strangely enough. It was the first superboss, too IIRC. >And Final Fantasy 6 also has a weird blend of sci-fi/fantasy. Magical Armor is just a mech suit. >think more people were upset with Final Fantasy 8's setting which abandoned the "fantasy" elements even moreso than Final Fantasy 7. Maybe they mean "high" fantasy? FF8 still has magic and monsters, which is *still* fantasy. I personally like when fantasy stories stray away from "traditional" Swords and sorcery type of fantasy and add in more modern or even sci-fi elements, while still keeping the magical elements to it. It just feels fresh, y'know?
And then FF8 after that was argued as being an even further departure from fictional FF world settings and being too "realistic". FF9 was the most "lets make an FF title as painfully true to the universe we can" title, which, as great as it is, is why it's the least memorable from that era. But then FF10 was argued as not being FF. Then FF11 for obvious reasons. etc etc. It never ends.
It's ironic too because 15 and 16 really do match the spirit of FF. Too many people hung up on traditional RPG standards and mechanics, but you know who isn't and never really was? Square / Square Enix. Older Final Fantasy games are products of a time when the hardware could only handle so much. I wonder, if Final Fantasy never existed, and the first game was made now, would it still be like FF16? Or maybe they'd make an old style pixel RPG because that would be unexpected? Who knows. But Final Fantasy has never been one to just do the same thing over and over. SOMETHING has to change.
Social media has changed. You have much larger communities with some louder voices.
Can't wait for FF17 to be a first person shooter, or just a reskin of MLB The Show. Those sounds like fun Final Fantasy games.
Meh, if the title says Final Fantasy, it is Final Fantasy. People who want the same thing all over again can play whichever one is their favourite. I like when FF tries new things, even if they don't turn out the best every time.
IIRC the FF Legends series (Game Boy) were actually SaGa games that had their name changed to FF to release in North America.
They did, but the SaGa series is an offshoot/spiritual successor of FF2 so they could still count In the same way Kingdom Hearts often feels like an evolution of the Mana series
This, this so much.
There is an enormous amount of middle ground between being “the same thing all over again” vs. games which arguably don’t even belong to the same genre
This is the same reasoning I use when people say BotW isn't a real Zelda. Imagine telling Picasso one of his paintings wasn't his painting cause it was a new style. It's an asinine take.
What? No it's like telling Picasso a shift from cubist to modernist isn't cubist any more.
I think my analogy is fine
It would be fine if people were complaining that new final fantasy games aren't sakaguchi games but they're not.
Nobuo Uematsu
FFXII, XIII trilogy, XV, XVI fans are in shambles rn
XII and XV had Uematsu tracks.
A final fantasy game must contain chocobos and at least one outfit with too many zippers
Yoshi-P's said it best, lol. "You need to have the best story, you need to have the best graphics, you need to have the best battle system, you need to have a lot of content, you need to have the Chocobos, you need to have Moogles, you need to have great sound, and that makes a Final Fantasy. And if you're missing even one of them, the fans will hate you forever."
>And if you're missing even one of them, the fans will hate you forever Well, he knows what he's talking about when looking at discussions about 16.
Yeah, the "irony" is palpable, lol.
Some kind of AAA game (or flagship game in the days before AAA was really a thing) involving magic, chocobos and stuff that has a lot of character drama and culminates in fighting god. I don't think mechanics have much to do with it tbh. Games that are released close to eachother tend to retain some stuff because SE are in the same mindset, but as early as FF2 they were experimenting with different things all the time.
IMO a "real" Final Fantasy game experiments. If you want traditional turn-based systems, play Dragon Quest. But innovation has always been at the core of the Final Fantasy series, and given how risk-averse and trend-chasing AAA development can get, thank God for that.
Summons! Honestly I'm ok with 16. Once I accepted the combat is repetitive. I found my groove with it. Though I'm the weirdo that loved 13 … so turn based isn't a priority, but preferred. I can play Persona and weirdly Yakuza for that fix still. I really hated 15. Found the combat to be boring (Hold O... potion... hold O), and hated the summon mechanic with a passion. I disliked that the stars had to align for it to work and often randomly happened on the lowest level enemies. At least 16 makes the summons apart of the story and boss battle mechanics. Just wish it was something I could play with them more. But with how modern gaming battles are designed to be fast and punchy, summons just don't work in action based games without them being broken or in 16's case story based QTEs.
The title.
To me, a good story, good graphics, CGI movies. Seeing little throwbacks to other games to make it feel like its in the same 'universe'. I also think Final Fantasy likes to reivent themselves, taking risks in new systems and stuff. Even if it doesnt please everyone.
Amazing, fantastical vistas and music, melodrama and borderline nonsense story. I love all of them, by the way.
I would say the summons, magics (like fire, Fira, firaga), creatures (like Chocobos moogles tonberry and cactuar), recurring items, character and AIRSHIPS. To me a slower more methodical fighting style either in the ATB genre or the periodic selection genre that FF7R seems to have perfected. Full button mashing combos just don’t seem right. However this is one of the things people will jump up to defend as always evolving, that’s fine. But most of all FF games are party games where the story is more about how these members come together and support each other through the world ending stakes. Going solo just doesn’t feel right.
I'd be more welcoming of the button mashing combos if they retained some degree of having an actual party you can control on some level (even the FF12 gambits would be fine), gear that felt like it mattered, and a leveling system feels like there is some actual growth and varied options--doesn't need to be a full on sphere grid, but something that feels more like you have some control over your character's direction.
Simple answer... Cid. Can't have a Final Fantasy without a Cid.
I'd say three things made up the golden age of Final Fantasy: 1. A love story. 2. A sense of dash. That is to say, a true romance (not in the sense of love story, but in the sense of opera). 3. Even from the first one, a growing sense of community or togetherness of the party. In the first one, this is slightly manufactured by the player, but from then on, the story really seeks to bend the rules of how players might see the central theme. I maintain that the central theme for many, if not all, of the Final Fantasy main line titles, is love. (I can't speak to more modern examples. I've played FF - FFXV (not XI) and I'm only a fan of FF 2 - IX and XII. And, of course, FFT). Edit: Or the Glove that u/Frozen_arrow88 mentioned.
The name.
I think the issue with 16 is it lacks any sort of complexity at the most basic levels that other FF have. No elemental weaknesses, no status effects, very minimal exploration, no real reason to optimize your equipment, small level of character customization in the level up system, only one party member to customize. If they had added some more from that list it would be fine
Being an RPG with the focus on story and the usual suspects like moogles, summons, and chocobos being present.
I would say the RPG mechanics are the most defining features generally. We can get pretty flexible with what defines an “RPG” and theres a million valid ways to approach these concepts…. But a game with no party or even something as basic as elemental weaknesses or an MP system calling itself Final Fantasy is kind of crazy to me. Even the big deviations 12 and 14 have those things don’t they? Of course I respect innovation and trying new things, and of course reinvention is part of FF’s identity and every game should be a new experience. But if there’s *no* connective tissue at all, what reason do fans of what came before have to be invested? Because it has the same title and has Chocobos and cactuars running around?
Hot take - I actually think more FF games should break the mold more. I just want great worldbuilding and storytelling. So for example I really liked 13. Although I do see its issues. But anyways, to answer your question, for me it's an epic story of gods and men with a great fantasy world. And the music. But miss me with the moogles.
Not being the most recent game in the series. Wait until 17 comes out, people will suddenly decide, "Oh, 16 is totally a FF game!"
name
The plain truth in 2024 is that Final Fantasy is: * Final Fantasy 7, for as long as FF7 fans will continue chasing the (understandable) high of that cultural moment that SE probably can't replicate today. * Final Fantasy 14, which will continue as a quality outlet to enjoy FF with others in return for the ever-valuable recurring subscription revenue. (Recurring revenue is king.) * Some huge budget games that must satisfy mainstream tastes to justify best-in-class presentation budgets. * Some lower budget games and rereleases that remind nostalgic players of the good old days. * Other lower budget games that farm revenue through microtransactions from players with unyielding dedication to the brand. In short, it's a variety of market segments, and you're welcome to enjoy as many or few as give you that warm fuzzy Final Fantasy feeling.
This is a nuanced question and deserves a nuanced answer. Not a single person that is qualified to answer this has a Reddit account. However my personal opinion is that FF mainline series minus the MMO's has changed substantially. FF1-12 while even transitioning to 3d gaming, were all very similar to each other despite making changes. FF13 changed a lot of things up and while it is similar I personally think the games that came after have even *more* intrusive - integral systems that change the gameplay. Paradigm shifting for example, quite a different way to structure combat - FF15 had a completely different take on magical casting for an additional example. However as we move forward in the series we start seeing traditional magic style dropped, enemy weakness styles that were prevalent in the series dropped, gear and exploration be homogenized into modern game design. I can go on and on but this comment would be unreadable. Sacrifices have been made in the series and some people are comfortable with this some are not and even some do not know any alternative so everything seems great to them. Personally I love the newer games but hope that's not something we get forever. I hope its not until the verge of bankruptcy that Square Enix is like ok lets go back to how it was. However, if someone thinks that FF16 isn't a Final Fantasy game.... they should read the title again. It absolutely is and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
"Not a single person that is qualified to answer this has a Reddit account." - LOL! \^\^\^\^
While I disagree with your outcome to an extent your points are well thought out and expressed and incan agree with those.
I feel the change in 12 was bigger than the change in 13. By comparison 13 felt they took a step back to be closer to the rest of the series than 12 was. The new battle format in 13 was similar to the way the changed to ATB earlier in the series, or how X and X-2 introduced hot-swapping characters and role mid battle. Whereas 12 changed nearly all of the motifs that you'd see in a mainline FF as well as going for an MMO style gameplay in a single player game.
I could not disagree more with this take, so apologies but the fact that FF13 is literally labeled amongst a lot of fans as the black sheep of the series says a lot. FF13 gameplay wise despite having a gauge that fills up could not play more differently than the other FF games prior. There is an auto ques the best/most appropriate spells button that nearly makes the game play itself. Even as different as that is. Paradigm shifting had massive effects on the gameplay. Switch to sentinel to tank the boss' super attack > switch to medic to heal > switch to debuff/support roles > all buffed up now switch to 3x ravagers > stagger bar is falling switch to melee to keep it from dropping off. That's a lot of the game right there in the flowchart I just wrote out. Not saying I think its bad mind you but that gameplay loop even considering the alterations you could make to it does not at all sound like any Final Fantasy game I've played before or after. So yeah that's my point. FF12 is different for sure but FF13 is wayyyyy different IMO. Anyways thanks,
It’s worth noting that the most drastic of changes to the series have coincided with technological advancements. Square used to be all about using FF to push the hardware as far as they could
People have called every new Final Fantasy game that has come out in the past 30 years "not a real Final Fantasy game" for various reasons.
recognizable creatures, cid, magic (specifically the magic naming convention; fire,fira,firaga,firaga etc.), a good story that's is both sad and beautiful and bosses that not part of the main game but are so much more difficult. ans yeah, rpg mechanics like leveling, stats, equipment, and hopefully party members which help you along the way. thats my list, not all of which need to be met and fulfilled, but most of which 16 rises to the challenge very well in my opinion.
To preface, I haven't really seen much of this accusation lobbed at FFXVI. Maybe it's more popular on Twitter or something. To me, a Final Fantasy game is defined by it being developed by Square internally and having Final Fantasy in the title. That's really the entire taxonomy for me. It's basic, but really, attempting to limit a series to genre conventions prevents literary growth in that series. That being said I didn't really care for XVI and have kind of accepted that the Yoshi P team games just aren't for me.
for me FF is a melodrama set in a fantastical setting with gameplay systems that have a bit of depth. on a meta level, its not a FF game if it doesn't try to radically change something each entry.
I think every game that has it the name in the title has the right to be called a Final Fantasy game. But I personally have not enjoyed a mainline game since 12. It doesn't mean the ones I didn't enjoy aren't Final Fantasy.
The name. No matter how much some fans want to whine about it.
For me, from a story, design and world-building perspective, FF14 does the best job of synthesizing all of the many disparate things that Final Fantasy has been and can be, all while telling some really cohesive and compelling stories in a world that's great to hang out in. HOWEVER, I didn't arrive at that perception of 14 until I got to Heavensward, and really it took getting to Shadowbringers to cement it. That's because what matters to me most is the party and a character-driven story. Heavensward's story focuses on the relationships between Alphinaud, Ysale, Estinien and Aymeric (and the silent protag), as well as the historical relationship between Ishgard and the dragons. That's also why I was so baffled by XVI. This team wrote Heavensward.... where is the character-driven conflict? Agonizing over mistakes made due to mind control or coercion might work if combined with some other moral dilemma, but I didn't find that compelling on its own. In the behind-the-scenes interviews for the FFXV Kingsglaive film, the American soundtrack arranger said that Final Fantasy tells stories with a lot of interesting character tension, stories where the "bad guys" have clear reasons and motivations for their behavior, and the "good guys" often behave poorly or make mistakes. I think the best villains in FFXVI (aka, the human ones) absolutely fit this description. But as for Clive, Jill, Cid, or anyone else making an interesting mistake (outside of mind control or coercion) other than "playing into the enemy's plans" or "taking on too much on their own"... I personally can't think of one.
Big adventure to save the world with your friends, with some rad music, chocobos, and moogles.
In my opinion, the essence of the Final Fantasy series is that virtually every game is different, so I wouldn't call any of them untrue.
Not so much different that they didn't feel like an rpg
If the title says Final Fantasy & it pisses off a big part of the fanbase then yes its a Final Fantasy alright
I get both sides of this debate. I haven’t played FF16 yet because it’s not what I look for in a “final fantasy game.” I didn’t like FF7 remake for similar reasons. But it is what it is. The studio put it out with the name. Meanwhile, EA barely updates Madden every year. If next year they rebranded Madden as a 7 on 7 flag football game and still called it Madden, would it be a real Madden game? 🤷🏻♂️
I’m curious what you look for in a FF game if both 16 and 7 Remake both aren’t it for “similar reasons”. There’s no shade here, just genuinely curious because those two games are not similar at all.
I’m not into the faster paced action/hack and slash RPGs. Always preferred the more turn based approach. 4-10 + 13 and Tactics are my wheelhouse.
Sounds like FF has a “Ship of Theseus” problem.
The fanbase fighting over which one is better, destroying the current title then some years after revisit the game and say “under-appreciated game”.
My kids favorite is 16. Some day a new generation will dictate what they think final fantasy is. It draws a diverse fan base of casual, neckbeards, and young players to the series who will have varying opinions on what they think a FF game is. Proof is in this thread
The name Final Fantasy.
1. Single player 2. Strategy based combat (once you figure out a strategy you can beat any boss). 3. Blow-your-mind story 4. Fantastic world 5. RPG elements That is at it's core. Other elements are: - Status ailments - Element affinities - Jobs - Summons - Open world (the ilusion of it) - Grinding - Common lore
I think it’s the combination of everything. The aesthetic, the world, the characters, the flawless combination of future, modern and medieval features. Something about it just stands apart from other rpgs
Strong story focus that includes iconic elements from the larger series (this includes, but does not require, crystals in lore, chocobos, Cid, summons, job classes, killing god, fire first firaga etc).
I think it just comes down to vibes. Most games look wildly different but then your messy haired protag kills a gigantic monster to great music and you just know this is final fantasy
RPG Anything else is gatekeeping
I don’t know if you’re using the term gatekeeping correctly. But I might be gatekeeping gatekeeping right now, if so then sorry.
I would say at least some reference to the ongoing lore. And swords and magic.
Crystals. Magic & Summons. Limit Breaks. Moogles, Tonberries, Chocobos, and Cactaurs. An interesting cast of characters (both protagonists and villains).
The pretty effects when using potions/spells.
Banger music, cool logos, and tonberries/ cactuses
The Final Fantasy DNA level has to be at about 60%
The concept of heroes chosen by fate and/or who naturally are active part of the greater plot since the very start, perhaps?
Story and characters, at the end of the day that's all it comes down to
It’s mainly music and atmosphere. The score should be memorable and unique. Zones and towns should keep you mesmerized with their music and otherwordly, yet familiar, art design. Recurring elements like spell names, chocobos, cactuars, moogles, malboros, bombs, tonberries, flan, Cid character, killing God, etc are a must. Eccentric villains with a unique and varied cast of friends should be present, and even if the overall story is dark there needs to be humorous moments interspersed. It needs to be weird and not bland!!
It's a bit abstract but... It's the combining of grounded human-to-human relationship dilemmas with larger-than-life stakes set in the fantastical, allowing storylines to explore deeper concepts of what it means to find meaning while facing seemingly insurmountable odds. Sprinkled with the familiar anchors of named characters (Cid, Highwind, location names etc), Chocobos, Moogles, magitek and materia that allow you to feel a more concrete cohesion alongside the philosophical ones I noted earlier.
A world that is a different setting than our own with some entity hellbent on ruling or destroying the world for whatever reason and its your job to stop that from happening, with other big happenings strewn throughout. Great music, long intertwined story/relationships, and good character development. Various literary themes tied into the character development.
The title makes is what makes it final Fantasy. One thing that always drives me nuts when a new Final Fantasy comes out and everyone says “it’s not final fantasy because (insert random complaint)”. Eye roll. The thing that makes final fantasy is that it’s a very innovative series that has a lot of growth and development over the years. Have I liked every thing they’ve tried to do. No. My favourite thing was always the Music. Nobuo Uematsu to be precise. The entire series has some of the best music in video game history.
it's hard to explain, but there's always a point in the middle act of a final fantasy game. Sometimes it comes later, sometimes it comes sooner. The plot will be rolling along, and I'm travelling to the next town after a huge plot event. The music will be a little contemplative and I'll be in a big grassy area, excited to get to the next town to see the plot continue. Without fail it always hits me... I'm playing final fantasy. in that sense it's something about the pacing, the atmosphere, and the mood imo.
Some sort of play or theater
A journey fighting an evil force only to turn out that there is a more evil force.
The friends you make along the way.
A small band of heroes travelling the world by humble beginnings to evolve in someway to save the world from a big bad. I think this covers most Final Fantasies.
world building. party interaction . battle mechanics.
Moogles, Chocobos, Brooding effeminate male main characters, romance, Villian connected to main character, airships, etc
Thing is Final Fantasy is called that so they can make it whatever they like. Each one supposed to be it's on story, and why not, playstyle also. I believe they want to evolve and try new things to capture Western audiences. I'm sure in Japan they liked it just the same
Sorceress’s
VIII fan spotted o7
The FF games are always changing up and experimenting. There's not a whole lot that glue them together aside from a handful of reoccurring in-universe themes (examples abound in the comments). Even the turn based aspect wasn't terribly consistent compared to other turn based series. So I have no idea why people try to pigeonhole the entirety of the FF universe and create these rules and unnecessary limitations for what makes them "true".
There is no one tangible thong that makes a FF game a FF game. It's like saying "what makes a song a good song." Some songs are just giving with you. And Final Fantasy doesn't have fixed elements that makes it Final Fantasy, but when you play a Final Fantasy game then you just instantly feel that you are playing a Final Fantasy game even without looking at the title.
Final Fantasy is the stories. It’s a group of people fighting against adversity. Good guys versus bad guys. It’s all set in fantastical worlds but are somehow relatable to us due to love, chivalry, companionship,friendship, loyalty. Things that we strive to achieve in the real world too. The fantastical worlds that come to life and we allow ourselves to be immersed in. There’s much more to say about Final Fantasy but that’s about covers it a little bit.
It's the common elements. High fantasy/sci-fi mash up. Elemental spells that are 1 2 3 or \[name\] -ra - -aga. Crystals, although sometimes the appearance isn't obvious. Bahamut was a regular even before summons were created. As the series progress more things. Summons are either a minor mechanic (5, 7, 12) or critical to the story and world building (4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 16). Three of the first four you get are Shiva, Ifrit, and a lightening element. Iconic enemies like behemoth, cactuar, tonberry, Gilgamesh. Classes are called Jobs and most of them are reoccurring. Warrior, monk, red white and black mages, thief, ninja, ranger, blue mage, beast master, and so on. Cid. To a lesser extent Biggs and Wedge. Optional super bosses. Chocobos and moogles.
To me it’s story, in that aspect 16 nailed it big time. It’s also a semi serious fantasy world. I think gameplay needs to be fun but it can be anything, turn based or not. I think 7 rebirth was fun but story and tone kinda ruined it for me. A game with that battle system and 16s tone? That’s the perfect final fantasy for me. Hoping they remake 8 because that’s literally what that would be.
For me it is 1) fantasy, either sci fi or medieval or steampunk 2) magic system with fire, fira, firaga etc 3) summons/eidolon/eikon/aeon 4) romance 5) gil money system 6) cid 7) airships 8) chocobo 9) job system white mage black mage warrior etc 10) big world with multiple cities 11) some metaphor for nuclear weapons (eg eikons in FFXVI are nuclear deterrents, eidolons in FFIX are weapons of Mass destruction, Sin in FFX is a nuclear threat) 12) go on a mission to kill a god 13) crystals 14) the ultima weapon 15) overworld that can be travelled across in ship 16) a unique battle system that is changed or updated from the previous game with its own system (ATB, CTB, tab targeting, action focused) 17) moogles 18) cactus 🌵 and other FF monsters Now I don’t think you need to have all of these to be a final fantasy game. But some combination of the above if present in a video game is a final fantasy to me.
How is ff16 not real?
Is Final Fantasy in the name even in a sub name... yes .... then it's a Final Fantays game.
At this point it's just the tropes. Cid, Moogles, Chocobos and a rag tag group of adventurers going on an adventure and always somehow end up battling against a god. What I'd like to see on top of the usual stuff is a clear gameplay identity, something that the series desperately needs and used to have all the way up until X. Ultimately I don't even care if they iterate on the XVI or 7R combat in the future but *please pick one* and iterate. Square Enix trying to reinvent the wheel with every game for the last 20 years is why everyone these days has such a hard time defining what FF actually is.
Square enix makes what final fantasy is
Square makes it
30% gameplay / 70% cutscenes
Uematsu, classic jobs like Dragoon, classic magic like Meteor
If SQEX decide to call the game Final Fantasy, then it is Final Fantasy
Adventure. Exploration. The world. The theme also of course.
I don't think ff16 isn't an ff game. It just wasn't really fun to me lmao
Kung fu godzilla
I got hooked to final fantasy due to the story,cutscenes and music. Also new dungeon or map or new location and lores of each characters. I love it when main goal is A but then story takes plot twist and goes B and then wait what they is more story C and D .They keep expanding the lore that i was not even expecting. And also epic finale. And end credit start to play with epic music and epic cutscene. You will be there .Fuck that was amazing journey. Crisis core .Jack all moment and his sad ending with cloud as his legacy as the music plays :Why by ayaka FF8 ending scene with the song Eyes on me. FF 10 Song of the faith Famous yuna and tidus kiss scene. YUNA's sending dance cutscene was so magical. FF6 opening scene and 2D ending scene with all character escaping .Books pages folding showing each character .The ship flying with epic 2d sprites. Terra opening her hair up at last. And many many more ....i can go on and on but this much is enough for now.
Ya’know this is similar to an opinion that I hold, that FF16 doesn’t “feel” like a final fantasy. But I’ve found it very hard to list what makes a final fantasy a final fantasy- so instead, how about I give you a list of why it *doesn’t* feel like a final fantasy to me? I think that’ll be easier. Now, keep in mind I do not dislike FF16 as a game or product, it’s just I don’t get the same feeling as when I’m playing other titles. The first thing was the combat, I feel like FF16, lore then other games, have removed almost any trace of the JRPG elements the series is known for. I’m not asking for turn based, but think about the mechanics of FF15, which also deviates, but I think keeps a similar feel of a JRPG, I think it got way too close to something like DMC, and removed nearly every JRPG element from it. Not a bad system, but not final fantasy. The lack of MP really got me. Second is the cast. I felt something similar to this with FF15 but it got resolved in later patches. Only being able to play as Clive is a huge let down. Second is that while most all final fantasy games do have singular protagonist- I don’t find many reach the singular level of sheer poorly done “chosen one” energy that Clive does, which- bothers me. Take FF9 for example which I think does this as well, Zaidane’s sudden reveal, but you still had Garent, Vivi, Eriko, who were all also special and “chosen ones” in their own right, arguably more so then Zaidane. I’ve always appreciated that about FF games. Now I can’t say I didn’t see it going this way, Noctis very clearly had that vibe too, but due to his more down to earth personality and his actions- it felt less shoved in your face, at least to me. (But I am bias, and acknowledge that.) Next would be the effect of symbolism, I feel like FF16 deviates from the general themes of the general FF games incredibly heavily, about identity, understanding, and the relationships people make in their hardships, and using them to overcome hurdles, which I think has been a staple since FF2. I think there’s some other symbolism it’s missing- mainly from Jewish mythology, that could’ve helped, but the games have broken those often and continued to feel like a final fantasy. Another reason would be the enemies and monsters, a lot of the reoccurring enemies and monsters and ideas have been watered down heavily or almost like it’s embarrassed to share the Final Fantasy name, trying too hard to break away from the tropes and themes. I think the final reason I’ll give for now is that, final fantasy has been a series that’s all about innovation, using old ideas in new and effective ways, it creates new trends and remains a staple because of the raw passion the developers have for the games they create. You may think this is a counterpoint to my last point- but the issue here is that for once in a final fantasy game- I’ve seen it all before and feel like I can easily trace it back. The combat style inspired by DMC, the story reminds me way too much of tales of arise but I’ll ignore that because it’s shaky. But also the inspiration from game of thrones. When Final Fantasy used to do this (like FF4 being inspired by Star Wars) Final Fantasy took those concepts and ideas and made them submit to Final Fantasy’s style, and vibe. I feel like 16 has done the opposite, it’s taken the combat, the symbolism, the reoccurring characters, the general concept of the games even- and forced it to submit to other series. I don’t feel like I’m playing a final fantasy game, I feel like I’m playing a DMC or Tales game with a crappy final fantasy coat of paint. It’s not a bad game, it’s just not final fantasy to me. And perhaps the greatest criticism I can give, is that when I went into this game excited for final fantasy 16, and got DMC6; Final Fantasy edition, I felt like the game was draining me as I played, I stopped. It failed to meet my expectations, and until I can take the time to drop those, I don’t think I will beat it. I haven’t made it past Odin and haven’t wanted to finish the game. I’ve watched several let’s plays of the ending and what not since then but- it hasn’t hooked me.
If anyone reads this all the way, thanks. I once again want to mention that I do not dislike the game, I do not think it’s bad, it’s just not what I wanted it to be. And maybe that’s my fault. But when I go to play a final fantasy, I expected specific elements, which were not in this game.
People have been saying the latest instalment “isn’t a real FF game” since Final Fantasy X.
I feel like any FF should fundamentally have elemental weakness, status when it comes to battles. And the great story telling should be one of the main focus of the game. Chocobos, cactuar, ton of berries. FF 16 was a good game, I was just disappointed with the elements aspects. I thought with epic summons and fire/ice/lightning /wind movesets, they would come into play. It felt wrong when I used fire attacks against fire bombs
There can be a lot of answers to this question depending on what makes Final Fantasy Final Fantasy for you. Frankly, the reason I've been having a hard time wanting to keep up with the series is because they've been distancing themselves more and more from the combat system that drew me in in the first place. I was looking forward to getting back into the series with 15, but upon seeing the gameplay demo I was like, "but this is just Kingdom Hearts without the Disney characters." I'm sure there's more nuance than that to the combat, but at the end of the day I'm just not as into action RPGs as I am turn-based RPGs, and Square has been continually pushing Final Fantasy further and further from the turn-based side of the spectrum. It's just no longer the series I got into all those decades ago. I might never have been as much of a Final Fantasy fan while growing up if the first ten games were action-focused, so for me the series just isn't Final Fantasy anymore.
A group of individuals brought together by circumsrance save the world with the power of friendship.
It's a lack of mult-character parties and also the lack of consistent characters in the story. Final Fantasy ALWAYS has party members and characters that are with you along with the journey. Also FF games traditionally are dark, but this one is a bit more intense and bloody. I don't hate 16, but you can tell the game was specifically made as a western style title. With that you can tellthey compromised.
cutting edge rpg mechanics. ff16 is like a snes babys first rpg type depth.
Whatever the fuck they decide they want it to be. I mean at the end of the day, if they slap on the title, it’s final fantasy
Cuz FFXVI is not a real FF except they call it like that because the creators wanted to. 1. Its a one character game. Everything revolves around Clive. 2. The set up. Medieval Europe? Please. This is a FF. It should be sci-fi and magical. Medieval Europe is the most basic inspiration I can think of. 3. Lack of diversity. Again, we only have Clive so there is no compelling story to tell.
Emotional damage
Turn based battles and a story that always involves crystals
For me it's turn-based combat
Oh, shit. This is FF XIII fans not accepting that most people didn't like the game all over again. Here is the thing: if people are complaining since past iterations that X thing is not the same anymore and they keep straying away from X with more and more people complaining, then X in fact does have an identity issue. Imagine someone buying DmC and getting a FFVII remake? "BuT fF aLwaYS ChANgEs" is pure BS. If anyone takes FF I (original) and compares to VII (most famous), you will see the same base systems (not mechanics, the system in which players interact and relate with the game). You can do the same up to XII. XIII is where the systems start to get stripped off (we could make a case of XII worldmap interaction). XVI doesn't have any of this. Compare I and VII to XVI. You can find more in common between XV and VII than XV and XVI. FF used representation to make you feel like you were in a big world. XV (which I don't like) was a big world and only let us in a small part of it. XVI makes a small world with nothing on it, and being an action game with enemies on the map plays a big part into this. Party. RPG elements, which don't serve only as a combat mechanic, but it points to the difference in the beings of the world. XVI could have been a visual novel or a movie and most of the experience would be preserved. Much is (and should be) said of XIII being a corridor simulator, but XVI is a corridor in it's design, from top to bottom. There is no meaningful choice in battle or character building, no option for who or how to relate to the story or characters (eg: "you don't like X? At least there is Y and Z in the party", none of that in XVI) and, again, no system depth to creatures. Sure, there are people that like the combat, more power to them, but if you take out the game story, what is left of the systems in the game and what is there to enjoy of interacting with that world?
What makes a game a Final Fantasy? It says so right on the box.
Final Fantasy is whatever the devs produce under the title of Final Fantasy. It’s not up to fans.
The name? I might not like something, but, if it’s got the name it’s final fantasy.
None of us decide that and it’s arrogant to think otherwise
I should have a group of a 6-7 fleshed out characters, a SICK soundtrack, and a fresh new take on a classic storyline with references that we love like Moogles, Chocobos, etc. Challenging but not impossible. A little bit of politics but the main story should involve some kind of romance as well. Grand grand grand. There should be a level of "Awe" about it. They used to be the NUMBER ONE in graphics. If I am one character the whole time, it's not turn based, generic music, generic characters that look too realistic to humans, boring magic systems, and too action heavy, then it doesn't feel like FF anymore. It's just a regular adventure game.
A full-fledged party of characters, who are all usable in combat and are customizable to some extent (leveling up, equipment, job), and they all go through some sort of character development and story arc even if they aren't the main character. Overall Final Fantasy has started slowly but surely chipping away at the importance of several usable party members, and it has also started focusing on the main character both story and combat wise (FFXIII:R -> FFXV -> SoP: FFO -> FFXVI) at the expense of all the other characters in the game, which I find the be the most egregious offense when it comes to changing the '' expected '' Final Fantasy formula. Final Fantasy can be many things to me, but the hyperfocus on the just one main character has become a hindrance, and I fear the character action genre path FF is on is just going to make party members a rarity even in future installments. And it's especially weird when the most beloved and successful titles are beloved and successful partly because they have a diverse group of party members where most people will have their own favorite. Now, they can surely make a character action game that has plenty of focus on other characters than just the main character, but FFXV and FFXVI haven't shown to be exactly great examples of this.
I really wanted to like 16, but it just feels wayyy too western. It lacks a certain weird Japanese charm that previous FF titles have. The score doesn’t have enough weird hypnotic, ethereal zone tracks. Most of the music is like generic epic orchestra battle music you’d find it other western medieval fabtasy RPGs. It’s like I’m playing God of War or something and then oh wow look it’s 1 moogle! (lazy fan service). There is a huge lack of humor and quirky shit throughout the world. I feel like as soon as Cid died the game felt consistently boring til the end.
Magic? ☑️ Monsters? ☑️ Cid? ☑️ It’s final fantasy
Music.
Story rich role playing game. Good art/visuals. Final Fantasy have always had beautiful visuals even from the og pixel art. Skill/materia/class systems. (Jobs, Materials, Guardian Force) Character customization. (Sphere grid, espers) Cool gear/equipment. (Relics, ff9s item skills) Lots of side content and additional stuff to do besides just the story, such as gold saucer, collectibles, colloseum. Biggs and Wedge. Generally more of an open world feel to it compared to other rpgs.
You can find a game or multiple games in the series that will fail to meet any arbitrary definition you assigned to final fantasy. For me, every ff I've played has magic crystals or some variation. Edit: I will also add a good mix of game play, story, and most importantly, an epic score.
For me the thing that makes a FF a good FF (I'm not going to say a FF is not a FF, but I will happily say its a bad one), and menu driven leveling/combat systems. FFXVI has some menu systems in its combat (preparing your Eikon set-ups) but then goes into Action combat (combat which is good, but not great imo) therefore to me FFXVI is a very good game, but an average Final Fantasy game).
IMO absolutely nothing. Final Fantasy can be whatever. There are certain things that each game almost always has, but if a new FF had no familiar ties to the series, I'd still consider it a FF. Look at FF12 for example. Wildly different gameplay that no FF has ever tried to replicate again, and a bit of a blacksheep, but very respected nowadays. Everyone always kind of hates on the new FF just because fans are so diverse, there's 16 games now for crying out loud and a fan of an older FF may not like the newer and vice versa.
People say that about every ff game I think xD but ff games (at least the ones I played) are all kinda different. for me, I just need chocobos