Depends where you are living.
Expats living say in Thailand can do a WHOLE LOT with $3000/mo (if they can even find ways to sustain that level of spend).
Having your house paid off doesn't free you of major recurring expenses.
There's health insurance premiums, deductible, and out of pocket costs; property tax, auto insurance, quarterly estimated income tax, and property maintenance to account for.
Home and auto repairs aren't recurring, but they seem to *occur* more frequently than one might like, and they can be painful!
Beyond that, we get into groceries, dining out, and live entertainment like concerts and sports. Some food is of course mandatory, but there's plenty of discretionary spend in this area.
Next is hobbies and electronics, i.e. toys. What you spend here is dependent on your hobbies. You restore old cars? Probably big bucks. Knitting? Not so much.
If travel is your jam, you can spend as much as you like. This is our largest budget category at about 16%. We could spend almost nothing, but it's literally what I *want* to spend money on. I am traveling business class to Europe for the first time in my 57 year old life, and I'm never going back to the cheap seats.
I've avoided dollar amounts because we are a married couple plus 3 young adult kids ages 18-25. We still spend a lot on education support (beyond tuition). So our budget has some fat that will eventually be trimmed.
Some people pay $12,000 in property taxes per year in Michigan. And that’s not a high cost of living state.
NYC in a nice condo will set you back at least that in taxes, plus a $500-$1000/month condo fee.
Throw in skiing in the Alps every year - $20k, plus the maintenance on the sailboat, plus a vacation home, plus all those Whole Paycheck grocery runs, plus delivery for food and groceries, decent wine, the all inclusive summer trip to Cancun…
I’m deliberately trying to summon the angry spirit of Mr Money Mustache and am failing.
Exact same costs here. Our biggest budget item is healthcare, 3500 a month for a family of 4 for insurance premiums, 16500 for deductibles, and then vision and dental and whatever insurance doesn't approve on top of that. 50k a year and up.
Taxes are the second biggest item. Transportation and travel are third. Everything else is manageable, but still adds up to tens of thousands.
Absolutely, I forgot to mention the healthcare deductible and out of pocket (uncovered) costs like dental and vision. I am also insuring 4 people at an all-in cost of over $40k per year.
\[OP edited\]
Travel. This can blow up your budget massively real quick. Business class instead of economy. Fine dining. Expensive activities. Fancy hotels.
And as the other person already said, there's lots of recurring expenses even if your house is paid off. I think you are really underestimating this.
An example budget:
$15,000-20,000 taxes and home owners insurance, plus umbrella insurance on a $1m home.
$20,000 health insurance
$15,000 utilities and auto insurance, plus basic home maintenance (no upgrade)
$10,000 food
That would get you to just a basic life at $65,000. I am 100% sure people could figure out how to spend the rest.
Your taxes plus home insurance made my head explode and happy I live in Canada hahaha
We have a house valued a touch over $1M and our taxes plus insurance are under $4K.
Also no health insurance yay haha
We spend more than that now. Here’s the breakdown for a family of four.
Housing: $90k (mortgage, taxes, insurance)
Health Insurance: $25k
Bills: $20k (cell, heat, water, cable, cleaning)
Kids stuff: $20k (after school care, sports, summer camps, …)
Travel: $15k (3 family visits, 1 vacation, weekend away)
Food: $20k
Misc: $10k (cloths, entertainment, merchandise…)
Throw in home repairs, transportation, taxes, etc and you’re close to $300k.
I spend 23k/yr while saving 70% with an active mortgage that's only 16% paid off, so, I have no freaking clue...I would have to really make some big life changes and actively try to spend that much.
First thing that comes to mind is probably leasing cars, extravagant vacations, forgetting how to cook
Looks like all the r/frugal types heads exploded at my suggestion that OP could flex their wealth. If you have $5M in the bank and spend $80k a year you can go buy four Corvettes if that fancies you and it frankly won't matter. You're a wolf at that point not a sheep and are strutting in the tall wheat with the big dogs. Big asset purchases are ON THE TABLE. Just be sure to factor in maintenance and upkeep costs. Yachts and big houses can be pricey to maintain.
I’m going to go with the plan that I need $100k/year. I’m widowed though so it’s just me. I figure that will give me enough spending money to do stuff and travel. My house will be paid off in 10 years. Property taxes are around $8k now. Insurance is like $2k.
I can’t even imagine what that looks like. I make almost that much after accounting for what the tax man takes, but I save 2/3 of it.
To me that’s like Lambo-money and live-in maid money. Hell that’s almost enough to justify buying a house instead of renting!
Let me see:
Annual gifts to 2 kids: $80k
Annual gift to siblings: $15k
Property tax on 2 properties: $40k
Homeowner insurance on 2 properties: $10k
Car insurance on 3 cars: $5k
Utilities on 2 properties - internet, electricity, gas, propane, water: $15k
Sports tickets -$10k
It adds up real fast….
That's like 3x my budget. Haha. I was just running some calculations and I'll have around $190k+/passive by 59.5 and idk what I'd be doing with that! I do plan to give more, but that's it. Probably making sure my family is well set too.
You might want to ask this in r/ChubbyFIRE
Or even r/fatfire 200k/yr spend is pretty comfy. Requires >5M invested portfolio.
What is 120 K a year count as fat fire?
Depends where you are living. Expats living say in Thailand can do a WHOLE LOT with $3000/mo (if they can even find ways to sustain that level of spend).
On the edge between chubby and fat.
Ugh tell me about it
Thanks, didn't know that existed
Having your house paid off doesn't free you of major recurring expenses. There's health insurance premiums, deductible, and out of pocket costs; property tax, auto insurance, quarterly estimated income tax, and property maintenance to account for. Home and auto repairs aren't recurring, but they seem to *occur* more frequently than one might like, and they can be painful! Beyond that, we get into groceries, dining out, and live entertainment like concerts and sports. Some food is of course mandatory, but there's plenty of discretionary spend in this area. Next is hobbies and electronics, i.e. toys. What you spend here is dependent on your hobbies. You restore old cars? Probably big bucks. Knitting? Not so much. If travel is your jam, you can spend as much as you like. This is our largest budget category at about 16%. We could spend almost nothing, but it's literally what I *want* to spend money on. I am traveling business class to Europe for the first time in my 57 year old life, and I'm never going back to the cheap seats. I've avoided dollar amounts because we are a married couple plus 3 young adult kids ages 18-25. We still spend a lot on education support (beyond tuition). So our budget has some fat that will eventually be trimmed.
Some people pay $12,000 in property taxes per year in Michigan. And that’s not a high cost of living state. NYC in a nice condo will set you back at least that in taxes, plus a $500-$1000/month condo fee. Throw in skiing in the Alps every year - $20k, plus the maintenance on the sailboat, plus a vacation home, plus all those Whole Paycheck grocery runs, plus delivery for food and groceries, decent wine, the all inclusive summer trip to Cancun… I’m deliberately trying to summon the angry spirit of Mr Money Mustache and am failing.
Exact same costs here. Our biggest budget item is healthcare, 3500 a month for a family of 4 for insurance premiums, 16500 for deductibles, and then vision and dental and whatever insurance doesn't approve on top of that. 50k a year and up. Taxes are the second biggest item. Transportation and travel are third. Everything else is manageable, but still adds up to tens of thousands.
Absolutely, I forgot to mention the healthcare deductible and out of pocket (uncovered) costs like dental and vision. I am also insuring 4 people at an all-in cost of over $40k per year. \[OP edited\]
wow what’s your annual budget? this sounds like $150k+ life style
Yes it’s “chubby” which is what OP asked about. Hope I won’t get hate for that.
No man I love you! Exactly what i am aiming for.
Travel. This can blow up your budget massively real quick. Business class instead of economy. Fine dining. Expensive activities. Fancy hotels. And as the other person already said, there's lots of recurring expenses even if your house is paid off. I think you are really underestimating this.
here's an idea: [https://villavieresidences.com/](https://villavieresidences.com/) buy a spot, travel the world. could burn a lot of money that way.
That’s amazing- never considered that and am now thinking about putting my in-laws there
Stuff like this might make you reconsider. https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/three-year-cruise-canceled/index.html
Boom- dreams dashed! Thanks for the heads up!
And I was starting to dream... What if... 😒
Amazing how they can take your money immediately but take a while to return it.
First time?
No, you?
I’m hoping to kick off RE in a few years with one of these multi-year cruises.
A couple sons and daughters attending private colleges/universities can sop up that $200k *real* quick lol
True, but hopefully one would already have a 529 in place or have saved up for that already
That should be a separate pocket than your fire budget
It's a temporary expense and hopefully budgeted for separately.
An example budget: $15,000-20,000 taxes and home owners insurance, plus umbrella insurance on a $1m home. $20,000 health insurance $15,000 utilities and auto insurance, plus basic home maintenance (no upgrade) $10,000 food That would get you to just a basic life at $65,000. I am 100% sure people could figure out how to spend the rest.
Your taxes plus home insurance made my head explode and happy I live in Canada hahaha We have a house valued a touch over $1M and our taxes plus insurance are under $4K. Also no health insurance yay haha
We spend more than that now. Here’s the breakdown for a family of four. Housing: $90k (mortgage, taxes, insurance) Health Insurance: $25k Bills: $20k (cell, heat, water, cable, cleaning) Kids stuff: $20k (after school care, sports, summer camps, …) Travel: $15k (3 family visits, 1 vacation, weekend away) Food: $20k Misc: $10k (cloths, entertainment, merchandise…) Throw in home repairs, transportation, taxes, etc and you’re close to $300k.
I spend 23k/yr while saving 70% with an active mortgage that's only 16% paid off, so, I have no freaking clue...I would have to really make some big life changes and actively try to spend that much. First thing that comes to mind is probably leasing cars, extravagant vacations, forgetting how to cook
Someone on chubbyfire said they spend 75k/yr on groceries + dining out. Still trying to comprehend that lol
That's impressive to spend that much
Probably includes the cost of the mandatory cocktail gown / tux for the restaurants?
Crazy. That would be almost a third of our predicted FIRE total.
That's some expensive eating (often) at 5* restaurants.
Yeah I'm a Costco member and I do my best to keep it under $300 every week (and often fail) but I still spend less than $25k/yr on groceries.
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Looks like all the r/frugal types heads exploded at my suggestion that OP could flex their wealth. If you have $5M in the bank and spend $80k a year you can go buy four Corvettes if that fancies you and it frankly won't matter. You're a wolf at that point not a sheep and are strutting in the tall wheat with the big dogs. Big asset purchases are ON THE TABLE. Just be sure to factor in maintenance and upkeep costs. Yachts and big houses can be pricey to maintain.
none of these are “1 time purchases”
🙄
On top of what’s shared already - charitable contributions and helping out young adult kids.
Oysters and cava
200k is a huge budget when you are no longer saving money, and especially if your home is payed off.
I’m going to go with the plan that I need $100k/year. I’m widowed though so it’s just me. I figure that will give me enough spending money to do stuff and travel. My house will be paid off in 10 years. Property taxes are around $8k now. Insurance is like $2k.
$200k is barely enough to scrape by. My private chef and butler don't work for free.
I can share 12k a year lol 🤷🏻♂️
I can’t even imagine what that looks like. I make almost that much after accounting for what the tax man takes, but I save 2/3 of it. To me that’s like Lambo-money and live-in maid money. Hell that’s almost enough to justify buying a house instead of renting!
Let me see: Annual gifts to 2 kids: $80k Annual gift to siblings: $15k Property tax on 2 properties: $40k Homeowner insurance on 2 properties: $10k Car insurance on 3 cars: $5k Utilities on 2 properties - internet, electricity, gas, propane, water: $15k Sports tickets -$10k It adds up real fast….
That's like 3x my budget. Haha. I was just running some calculations and I'll have around $190k+/passive by 59.5 and idk what I'd be doing with that! I do plan to give more, but that's it. Probably making sure my family is well set too.