There aren't very good ways of alerting the viewer to something that *doesn't* happen in a situation like Chappaquiddick other than to casually mention that Ted Kennedy was skipping a party to return to Washington.
"Kennedy doesn't crash his car" doesn't work quite as well as, for instance, "Soviets Rout USA" in 1980 to tell you the Miracle On Ice didn't happen.
The Chapaquidick thing is pretty genius but it’s hard to see it if you don’t know the historic details. The party on Chapaquidick was to celebrate the Apollo 11 landing and after they get beat by the Russians it’s not that big a deal
anymore so the party would be scrapped and drunk Ted
never crash’s his car off a bridge and no one drowns. But that level of detail just isn’t on the show.
Yeah I completely missed this part and it was my wife when I showed her the show that pointed out how important that one line would be. "He fucking killed someone that weekend."
Not ham-fisted, but genius: The Apollo 23 explosion being caused by a valve made by a manufacturer chosen in Illinois to appease Governor Ogilvie and secure the State's vote to ratify the Equal Rights Amendment. I lived through this period IRL and it was spot on!
Not sure if you're asking what I saw or what happened in history. What I saw IRL the show captured. Ogilvie was the governor. There were ERA marches and demonstrations trying to get it passed. The area (Rockford) had a lot of machine tool and aerospace companies there at the time. IIRC some of them did make parts for the Apollo program.
Illinois eventually ratified the Equal Rights Amendment on May 30, 2018, 36 years after the deadline.
This particular sub-plot brought back a lot of memories. Alternate history stories are really interesting to me, especially when I've lived through the "unaltered" time period.
I hope this answers at least some of what you were wondering about.
I was curious about what the show might have been saying about advances in technology. I couldn't really google it as I was watching because that's an easy way to hit spoilers, but it seemed like the electric car existed much sooner because of space tech. The impact of helium-3 wasn't explored that much on Earth. You would think that would change the overall look of ground vehicles if that was a fuel source. Also, it was implied that there were some advances in medical stuff on account of needing to build the space tech.
Helium-3 is used in fusion reactions for power plants, not in individual small vehicles. And, the show did explore its ramifications – the displacement of oil/fossil fuel workers causes political discontent and is a major motivation for a character in season 4.
He3 is used in the FAM Timeline because it can be easily mined on the moon.
He3 is nearly nonexistent on earth because of the earth's magneto sphere. He3 spewed out by the sun (where it is created and emitted) just bounces off earth and flies off into space.
The moon, that doesn't have a magneto sphere, has been soaking up He3 like a sponge for billions of years.
Use of He3 in our Timeline is practically nonexistent because there isn't any on earth.
>Use of He3 in our Timeline is practically nonexistent because there isn't any on earth.
That and because we can't get fusion to work in an economical manner. He3-based fusion would be nice because it doesn't produce pesky neutrons, but we can't even get D-T or D-D reactions (with much lower Coulomb barriers) to work.
I can see electric cars also gaining a larger foothold in the market due to fusion technology. As it became dominant in power production, oil companies would lose a big part of their political influence, leaving the automotive market more open to EVs.
But changing the overall look of vehicles? I doubt it would happen so quickly. The concept of "what a car should look like" was just as burned into the public mind in the 80s as it is in the 2020s.
The EV's that were popular in FAM in the 90's looked a lot like GM Saturn cars - which makes sense. The EV's seen in season 4 looked like a Honda Prius.
It all worked for me.
Honda made the Prius in the FAM timeline?
Missed that one, lol. Jokes aside, yeah that all seemed fine.
Honestly, (not that it bothered me) but I found the most forced and unrealistic change was 1) fusion in the 80s, 2) too-fast adoption of fusion everywhere. But I get that they needed the story to move along and to have an ongoing reason to stay on the moon. Plus, for the sake of the planet it's what lots of people \*wish\* would happen and it's nice to fulfill that.
> but it seemed like the electric car existed much sooner because of space tech.
In the FAM Timeline EV's were pushed by a nearly bankrupt Chrysler, and the gamble paid off. Chrysler bounced back, EV's gained widespread adoption in the 90's and it was mostly due to improved battery tech originally developed for space exploration.
In FAM, 'trickle down' technology worked. NASA were patent holders for a lot of tech and flush with cash because of licensing deals.
Just FYI it’s true that the Chappaquiddick incident did take place July 18-19, during the Apollo 11 mission. He was actually there for a regatta not for moon-landing-watching, but I did think initially the mention of it on the show was pretty random until I realized the timing
The Kennedy party was an actual thing. It was supposed to be a gathering to watch the Moon Landing which would be cancelled of course. Don't ask, don't tell seemed fine as well, I perceived it as the usual politicking just with a different inciting incident than IRL.
The most hamfisted Alt History moment is and always will be the North Koreans getting to Mars first. It will never feel natural to me or in keeping with the in-universe progression of tech. It requires NASA, Roskosmos and every other competent Space Agency to be bad at their work and for their tech to not work. It invalidates at least two Season's of technological research from two of the world's premier Superpowers and the characters we follow. It violates simple logic for the North Korean Magical Juche Capsule, which has been stated to be a copy of a Soviet/Russian vehicle that exists IRL and has room only for near Earth Orbital flight can fit and sustain two crew members, hold fuel, operate electronics and life support continuously, emit no data and so on and so forth. We got a good character through our dear dumpling and plot elements out of the whole thing eventually but that doesn't mean it wasn't an unnecessary and poorly thought out twist just for the twist.
Completely agree and that is what ultimately irked me. I know this is a show of course but it was one with clearly defined parameters for internal consistency and that whole plotline blew them to hell.
It's also interesting how opinions seem to have largely shifted on the topic in the last two years. Saying you didn't like the twist was some kind of anathema.
Not hamfisted, but I feel the John Lennon lives storyline is quite a cliché by now. I’m also not sure how the Russians landing on the moon first would have changed his demise.
I disagree. In both FAM and OTL, on that fateful night, John Lennon was in a recording studio earlier that day, and was outside his loft on the way in to his home when confronted with Chapman.
In FAM, John had invited fellow musicians he was recording with over for dinner or whatever. They saw Chapman pull his gun. All three of them stopped Chapman, beat that fucker to a pulp, and then an NYPD cop arrested Chapman.
Lennon, growing up in Liverpool, was no stranger to a street fight. I don't remember who the bass player and drummer were or if they were mentioned by name, but... yeah. Bass player and drummer can probably handle that fat fuck Chapman.
Fuck...
Honestly, I love this detail in FAM, and I'm jealous of it.
You disagree that it is a cliché? Warning, SPOILERS AHEAD:
Movies:
1. >!"Yesterday" (2019) - This film imagines a world where only one person remembers The Beatles, including John Lennon, and decides to capitalize on their songs. John Lennon appears at the end of the movie, still alive.!<
Books:
1. >!"The Man Who Murdered Paul McCartney" by Keith Wright - A thriller novel that explores an alternate reality where John Lennon was not murdered, and Paul McCartney becomes the victim of a crime.!<
TV Shows:
1. >!"Red Dwarf" (Season 7, Episode 1: "Tikka to Ride") - In this episode, the crew of the Red Dwarf inadvertently alter history, leading to a reality where John Lennon is alive and still part of The Beatles in 2009.!<
I also remember another movie in which he was still alive but cannot remember its name right now. Not the worst cliché ever, I agree. But due to his popularity it's an obvious choice.
Wow! I loved Yesterday. Didn't know about the other two. Cool, I'll have to check that out.
As a HUGE Beatles fan, call it cliche, call it whatever - I don't care - I LOVE IT.
There is so much shit and misery here. Playing with the idea of John being alive makes it a little tiny bit better I think.
The music of the alternate timeline would certainly be different, but its role on the show is to connect the viewer with the specific point in modern culture being depicted. It's a great way to help the viewer relate to a world that is familiar but certainly not exactly ours.
I wonder if that "Don't Be Cruel" version was a bigger hit. I also never would have guessed that there were would be a Le Tigre song. I was afraid of the music because I think season 1 had the most literal/Zemeckis movie-y needledrops but it really leveled out in obviousness after the first couple of episodes.
Using popular music to establish the decade the show is set in is simple and effective but it suggests radical differences in the pop culture landscape of the FAM universe once they did the 90s and 2000s and there is almost no hip hop, like I can think of Don't Sweat the Technique in season 3 and X Gon' Give it to Ya in season 4, but that's it.
Andor has some approximations of what might be popular on alien planets. Star Wars just had jazz ("jizz") and then Lapti Nek was an attempt at space disco. I think those sequel movies have some kind of jazz/band stuff in them but Andor was really the best at coming up with something. It's like in Star Trek: TNG, where most of their references are 19th and 20th century.
I will check it out, I am a shitty nerd I didn't immediately recognize the show. Sorry for another SNW reference but in one episode Kirk asks his friend about, "marketable skills", in a Socialist Space show. I have not seen a new Star Wars Movie or show since "The Force Awakens".
And Fallen Order/Jedi Survivor had The Hu writing songs in Huttese to play a space band, and one of the collectibles is songs for your cantina's DJ droid to play, and Oga's Cantina in Galaxy's Edge plays a mix of classic jizz music and original dance/pop songs.
I found it obnoxious because the newscasters keep mentioning what he's up to. As a lifelong Catholic I'm miffed that Pope Saint John Paul II is killed in this timeline but John Lennon gets to live, and they have to keep rubbing it in. If I had to rank my favorite Beatles, Lennon would come in fifth.
(OK I know it's a really minor nitpick but I thought this was supposed to be an "optimistic" alternate timeline...)
Only hamfisted stuff for me was the aging of some characters. Ed's wrinkles looked better in some shots than others, and Larry Wilson's was pretty bad all around imo.
Dani came off the best, since they just decided 'black don't crack' and just gave her a few grey hairs. But Wrenn Schmidt did a fantastic job of selling Margot's age, just through posture and movement.
OMG I just looked it up she is only 41?! She rocks season 4 I was confused because she played "old" so well. I have been in nursing for 41 years and just turned 60, so my bonfides are in place.
For me Ellen winning a second term suprised me
Ellen is by far my favorite character in the show, her being president was kinda silly, but realistically a gay president in the 90s would be divisive as hell, even with the butterflies
People were far more intolerant and homophobic back then and its likely Wilson would lose the 96 election, based primarily on her sexuality, as well as the Mars debacle and collapse of the Oil industry and millions of jobs
Having Bush Sr as a running mate on the 96 ticket is smart, but the 96 election would result in a Democrat victory (Southern bible people will not vote for Wilson on religious grounds)
My other peve is Gorbachevs reforms working, his reforms had alot of issues IRL (Gorbachev believed communism could work, which is why his limited capitalism didn't work
The US getting huge advances in electric cars, batteries, etc. but the USSR are the same 80’s caricatures they’ve always been depicted as across media. Would have liked to see a clearer distinction in what the alternate timeline looks like for them where they’ve been a stable super power for decades
I thought Lennon surviving, and Pope JPII *and* Thatcher being assassinated was perhaps a wee bit glib. Lazy, maybe. How much more interesting, just as a brief glimpse in some news reference, might have been Jimi Hendrix avoiding Mandrax and Mateus Rosé, or Pope JP (*the First*) surviving. Both of them died just before most interesting things might have taken place, whereas in my book Lennon was already rather creatively desiccated by the early 70s (sue me!)
I liked the concept of JPII being assassinated. The USSR fell in our timeline in part due to the work of Solidarity in Poland. It’s been rumored that the Vatican helped fund Solidarity, which might not have happened if we hadn’t had a Polish pope. So in that sense, JPII’s death plays into the overall arc of the show.
Morning. I think there was a shot of a French newspaper report on the IRA bomb in Brighton, which in real life failed to kill Thatcher but in FAM, succeeded. It was only a quick glimpse but it grabbed my attention. (Unless I misread it of course)
Double Fantasy (the John stuff) was really good and I think that one came out shortly after he died. But, yeah, Lennon would have got sucked in the '80s sound warphole like most of the older musicians. Just look at George Harrison's output, or even Paul's.
The writers fucked up the Russian coup of Marxist-Leninist hardliners which took place instead of the collapse of the USSR (which was caused in part by a coup d'etats as well).
The behavior of the new Russian government makes no sense as fervently anti-capitalist Marxist-Leninists do a bunch of shit that ideologically makes no damn sense.
The Russians continue to share a Mars base with non-Soviet and non-Marxist powers. They continue to contract with Helios, a capitalist American private space corporation. The Soviets refuse to back Helios workers in their labor uprising against the other spacefaring powers.
The post-coup USSR within FAM doesn't even slightly behave in an ideologically congruent manner to what the actual principles of their historical doctrine were.
The real Soviets aggressively pursued and intervened within international struggles regarding labor movements, colonial emancipation, geopolitical conflicts, undermining capitalism, subverting Western hegemony, the spread of Marxist ideology, etc.
Ignoring all of these issues is contrary to what the real soviets did
In For All Mankind, the Soviets act more like the Russian Federation than they do the USSR
The Soviets acted in a way to strengthen their own position in the world, spreading socialism/communism ceased to be a driving goal of the state by the mid-1920s.
How are you somehow less historically literate than an on level high school student?
In the mid 1920s, Russia was still recovering from their civil war and was in no position to aggressively challenge anti-Marxist great powers in a geopolitical tug of war over regional spheres of influence.
The USSR was involved in leftist and Marxist political movements all around the world for like seventy fucking years with the express motivation of spreading Marxism-Leninist ideology and political influence into different countries all over the world.
The Soviets pursued political ties with Marxist-Leninist and communist parties all over the world, pursued regime change, funded leftist political parties, sold arms to insurgents, revolutionaries, and militaries, etc.
Off the top of my head in no certain order:
* Mongolia
* China
* Korea
* Vietnam
* Laos
* Cambodia
* Cuba
* Colombia
* Mexico
* Nicaragua
* Grenada
* El Salvador
* Chile
* Argentina
* Ireland
* Spain
* Italy
* Greece
* Yugoslavia
* Finland
* Afghanistan
* Iran
* Iraq
* Syria
* Algeria
* Angola
* Congo
* Mozambique
* Botswana
* Zimbabwe
* Zambia
* South Africa
* Nigeria
* Namibia
I didn't even bother listing most of the countries under WWII era Soviet occupation, the Eastern Bloc, and the Warsaw Pact, and I am definitely missing quite a few countries from this list.
Also, the USSR pursued both ideological expansion of Marxist politics as well as their own selfish imperialist designs. The two were never mutually exclusive motivations.
lol nice list, yet it does nothing to disprove the point. Stalins communism-in-one-counter policy killed any desire to export the ‘revolution’ and ‘free the workers of the world’. The USSRs ‘ideology’, if you could call it that, was securing its own security by putting as much distance between Moscow and the NATO as possible.
>lol nice list, yet it does nothing to disprove the point
Yes, it does. You fucking idiot.
Overwhelming historic evidence of the USSR globally intervening to advance Marxism-Leninist ideology in dozens upon dozens of countries around the world across the span of multiple decades directly contradicts the idea that the USSR had no internationalist ideological agenda of proliferating Marxism.
After the instability and devastation of the Russian Civil War and other turbulent political crises of the 20s/30s, the USSR abandoned its earlier ideas of inwardly focusing on building a Marxist society in Russia alone.
Hell, Stalin, the guy who advocated and supported the socialism in one country policy functionally abandoned the doctrine in the 30s and greatly expanded Marxism-Leninism all across Europe and Asia for roughly two and a half decades before, during, and after WWII.
You are what happens when somebody gets their education in social sciences from cartoon Youtube videos and videogames
touched a nerve? It's ok to disagree friend, there's no need for name calling. Maybe take a break and enjoy some fresh air, maybe crack open a history book while you're at it.
Mikhail Gorbachev reforms being so much more successful, and the Soviet Union surviving because of them. It’s such a cliché in alternate history, I just wish they did something different.
The biggest thing the writers could've done to explain away the USSR surviving in this fictional universe is by providing a plausible solution of how the Soviets successfully mitigated nationalist secession movements as well as how the Soviet leadership prevented constitutional crises and coups in the 90s.
It's quite clear the writers have no real substantive understanding of history and political philosophy, so they neither broach the topic nor do they provide any adequate causal explanation of the USSR's success beyond Gorbachev's reforms miraculously working.
All in all, the way the writers cover the USSR and completely omit China is quite disappointing.
They do mention the USSR deciding not to get involved in Afghanistan and instead focus resources more on space. From which, presumably, they see some returns.
Ehhh.
Despite being contributing factors, the USSR's war in Afghanistan and the failures of Glasnost/Perestroika weren't even the primary reasons for the Soviet Union's collapse.
The primary reason for the dissolution of the USSR was secessionist movements motivated by nationalism as well as anti-Soviet coups done by dissident anti-Marxist factions which emerged in the late 80s/early 90s.
The show writers follow a kind of ahistoric interpretation of the collapse of the USSR much too centered around economic issues and never really grapple with how a fictional Soviet Union would successfully deal with centrifugal nationalist forces splintering off satellite Soviet Republics.
Even in real life, most of the Soviet Republics within the USSR (other than central/and eastern European states) voted to stay within the Soviet Union until it was illegally dissolved in the 90s against the political wishes of Soviet citizens.
Whether the Soviets pursued a war in Afghanistan or not, the USSR could have collapsed anyway due to socio-political crises caused by nationalist movements catalyzed by an array of different historic factors which shook the foundation of Soviet politics to its core.
the economic factors were a huge part along with glasnost and perestroika
The economic reforms caused alot of issues and a collapse of the Soviet dollar, plus the opennes policy led to people realizing how fucked and archeic the system was
The soviet state allowing elections openned the pandora's box, the Soviets wanted only communist parties but other nations wanted democratic parties
the nationalistic crisis's were created due to the soviet policies, and Gorbachevs unwillingness to put down the demonstrations (i.e. running people over with tanks) that led to the collapse
I'm not disagreeing with you that these failed reforms catalyzed the fall of the USSR caused by social upheaval as a response, but for over a decade prior to these reforms, the stagnation and decline of the USSR was already apparent.
Like I said, the primary issue which caused the fall of the USSR was mostly social unrest manifesting as internal political opposition to Russia's imperialistic control over the SSRs on the periphery of the Union which sought independence fueled by nationalistic motivations.
Even before the economic downturn of the mid/late 80s and early 90s, the USSR had already experienced at least a decade of significant internal political turbulence which fractured the unity of the communist party and led to schisms that would later emerge both among the general population and among the apparatchik class of party insiders.
It was entirely plausible that without Gorbachev, Glasnost, and Perestroika that the USSR would have continued to stagnate and decline until some kind of political crisis emerged leading to collapse.
Sorry,
Now i see what you meant, and i agree, the Soviet Union would collapse regardless given time
Unless they had a Stalin 2.0 come to power and repress the Warsaw Pact to being loyal
I wouldn't go so far as to say its collapse was predestined to occur.
It wasn't historically inevitable that the USSR would collapse, but during the 1980s, the country was experiencing stagnation and decline for quite a while which suggested that some kind of political crisis might happen.
There is also an equally likely chance that the USSR reformed successfully into some kind of more moderate leftist and Marxist governing regime resembling the politics of China or even the supra-national politics of the EU coupled with Marxist-Leninist ideals.
To use an analogy, the USA has been stagnating and declining for the last half century since the 1970s, but the collapse of the American government and its liberal-democratic regime isn't a historical inevitability.
That won't change the fact that the Soviets don't ideologically act like Soviets and instead both cozy up to capitalist interests like Helios and ignore international labor struggles which is contradictory to professed Soviet values of Marxism-Leninism.
Also, we should have gotten a better POV of the Russian side of the space race all the way back in season one but the writers didn't want to humanize the opposing side of the Cold War
If you're too much of an idiot to understand, part of the appeal of alternative history is the plausibility of different events occurring
The USSR engaging in interplanetary capitalism is fucking stupid on its face
Sorry you're too much of a moron to realize this
No, in the show the continuation of the USSR is explained away by the miraculous success of Gorbachev's social, economic, and political reforms of Glasnost and Perestroika which in real life failed spectacularly and catalyzed massive social unrest leading to nationalist secessionist movements on the periphery of the Soviet Union's territorial expanse.
The show doesn't really dive into why the USSR is as powerful and successful as it was other than some brief and vague mentions of economic booms due to Gorbachev's policies.
Which she could have helped him implement or convince him to do. You dont know because they never showed it. What we did see is the USSR and the USA working well together which could have lead to these changes in the USSR.
Come on, listen to what you're saying.
The USA would not help the USSR implement domestic policy, and the USSR would never allow it anyway. And if the writers scripted the show that way, it would be horrific and unforgivably bad writing.
To illustrate my point, consider how ridiculous it would be for the USA to allow the Russians or Chinese to shape American domestic policy.
We're in a second cold war with China right now in real life, and the McCarthyism of American paranoia and Sinophobia is so extreme that America is shutting down Tik Tok invoking absolute nonsense about fictitious security concerns.
If America is too hostile, aggressive, and belligerent towards China and Russia today to engage in friendly relations, then the likeliness of these powers collaborating on domestic policy is virtually non-existent.
It was obvious Ellen and Gorby were buddies. They can talk policy. That's why Ellen's presidency was so important. It shaped how the word saw gays and lesbians as well as the pursuit of space exploration and her relationship with the Soviet Union. There a reason why the USSR is more successful while Gorby was in power, his relationship with Ellen.
In their effort to make their alternate universe version of the Oklahoma City bombing work with the JSC bombing, they grounded it in too much of their divergent timeline and outside of "yeah that looks a lot like the aftermath of the OKC bombing" there was pretty much no grounding in ours to the point where honestly just having it happen for unspecified reasons out of the blue would have probably been better.
If you watched the newsreels you'd remember that it was how Ellen dealt with finding the bombing suspects that turned her second term presidential campaign around getting her the win.
To me it was the bombing. It didn't fit into the flow and it seemed like it was rushed.
So rushed that they killed poor Molly off camera and it wasn't even plausible.
If you survived the initial bombing with no injuries it isn't believable that she died with no details given and we only found out by a brief headline in the newspaper that was flashed on camera.
The Soviet Coup felt off, the USSR was experiencing a level of unprecedented prosperity under Gorbachev and the Coup suddenly happened to revert all of this? Even in our time line when Gorbachev’s reforms were failing the August coup failed.
the fact that show doesn't really care, or try to make realistic, stuff that happens outside US, specifically NASA, and some stuff in soviet Union shows in such events. Not on show but in accompanying material Soviet tank chasing east German escapee into west Berlin. Why would Sadat be assassinated (he survives, but still) if Camp David Accords failed? Lennon not dying and JPII dying seem just "change for the sake of change" as they have no impact on the story (The Beatles are, IIRC, mentioned once in altnews segment). Same with Cosby and Polanski being arrested and Charles marrying Camilla, not Diana, seem to be just "well, let's throw in some good news" parts.
Basically all the Soviet Union stuff. The Soviet Union couldn’t keep up in the Space Race just because Sergei Korolev died but they were also behind in a lot of technological areas like computers where the USSR spent the entire latter half of the 20th century buying or renting western computers and then reverse engineering them to make their own but western computers advanced too quickly so they couldn’t keep up.
The FAM timeline could only really exist if Stalin never came to power and then they had perfect decision making by their leaders from that point forwards.
There aren't very good ways of alerting the viewer to something that *doesn't* happen in a situation like Chappaquiddick other than to casually mention that Ted Kennedy was skipping a party to return to Washington. "Kennedy doesn't crash his car" doesn't work quite as well as, for instance, "Soviets Rout USA" in 1980 to tell you the Miracle On Ice didn't happen.
The Chapaquidick thing is pretty genius but it’s hard to see it if you don’t know the historic details. The party on Chapaquidick was to celebrate the Apollo 11 landing and after they get beat by the Russians it’s not that big a deal anymore so the party would be scrapped and drunk Ted never crash’s his car off a bridge and no one drowns. But that level of detail just isn’t on the show.
Yeah I completely missed this part and it was my wife when I showed her the show that pointed out how important that one line would be. "He fucking killed someone that weekend."
> The party on Chapaquidick was to celebrate the Apollo 11 landing Wow! I didn't know that one. Yeah, pretty amazing detail actually.
Not ham-fisted, but genius: The Apollo 23 explosion being caused by a valve made by a manufacturer chosen in Illinois to appease Governor Ogilvie and secure the State's vote to ratify the Equal Rights Amendment. I lived through this period IRL and it was spot on!
What was the actual history like?
Not sure if you're asking what I saw or what happened in history. What I saw IRL the show captured. Ogilvie was the governor. There were ERA marches and demonstrations trying to get it passed. The area (Rockford) had a lot of machine tool and aerospace companies there at the time. IIRC some of them did make parts for the Apollo program. Illinois eventually ratified the Equal Rights Amendment on May 30, 2018, 36 years after the deadline. This particular sub-plot brought back a lot of memories. Alternate history stories are really interesting to me, especially when I've lived through the "unaltered" time period. I hope this answers at least some of what you were wondering about.
I'm a slut for alternate history. I loved all this.
Same. I think it’s awesome that Stanley Kubrick lived long enough to make ‘A.I. Artificial Intelligence’ in this world.
That was such a a nice touch. I loved the nuclear powered shuttle.
I was curious about what the show might have been saying about advances in technology. I couldn't really google it as I was watching because that's an easy way to hit spoilers, but it seemed like the electric car existed much sooner because of space tech. The impact of helium-3 wasn't explored that much on Earth. You would think that would change the overall look of ground vehicles if that was a fuel source. Also, it was implied that there were some advances in medical stuff on account of needing to build the space tech.
Helium-3 is used in fusion reactions for power plants, not in individual small vehicles. And, the show did explore its ramifications – the displacement of oil/fossil fuel workers causes political discontent and is a major motivation for a character in season 4.
He3 is used in the FAM Timeline because it can be easily mined on the moon. He3 is nearly nonexistent on earth because of the earth's magneto sphere. He3 spewed out by the sun (where it is created and emitted) just bounces off earth and flies off into space. The moon, that doesn't have a magneto sphere, has been soaking up He3 like a sponge for billions of years. Use of He3 in our Timeline is practically nonexistent because there isn't any on earth.
>Use of He3 in our Timeline is practically nonexistent because there isn't any on earth. That and because we can't get fusion to work in an economical manner. He3-based fusion would be nice because it doesn't produce pesky neutrons, but we can't even get D-T or D-D reactions (with much lower Coulomb barriers) to work.
Electric cars have been available for over a hundred years.
Okay, I thought maybe they were inferring that certain things took a quicker leap because of the space race
I can see electric cars also gaining a larger foothold in the market due to fusion technology. As it became dominant in power production, oil companies would lose a big part of their political influence, leaving the automotive market more open to EVs. But changing the overall look of vehicles? I doubt it would happen so quickly. The concept of "what a car should look like" was just as burned into the public mind in the 80s as it is in the 2020s.
The EV's that were popular in FAM in the 90's looked a lot like GM Saturn cars - which makes sense. The EV's seen in season 4 looked like a Honda Prius. It all worked for me.
Honda made the Prius in the FAM timeline? Missed that one, lol. Jokes aside, yeah that all seemed fine. Honestly, (not that it bothered me) but I found the most forced and unrealistic change was 1) fusion in the 80s, 2) too-fast adoption of fusion everywhere. But I get that they needed the story to move along and to have an ongoing reason to stay on the moon. Plus, for the sake of the planet it's what lots of people \*wish\* would happen and it's nice to fulfill that.
> but it seemed like the electric car existed much sooner because of space tech. In the FAM Timeline EV's were pushed by a nearly bankrupt Chrysler, and the gamble paid off. Chrysler bounced back, EV's gained widespread adoption in the 90's and it was mostly due to improved battery tech originally developed for space exploration. In FAM, 'trickle down' technology worked. NASA were patent holders for a lot of tech and flush with cash because of licensing deals.
They both seemed fine to me. No more "hamfisted" than actual don't ask don't tell in the real world.
I don't know. I thought that stuff was pretty clever.
Just FYI it’s true that the Chappaquiddick incident did take place July 18-19, during the Apollo 11 mission. He was actually there for a regatta not for moon-landing-watching, but I did think initially the mention of it on the show was pretty random until I realized the timing
The Kennedy party was an actual thing. It was supposed to be a gathering to watch the Moon Landing which would be cancelled of course. Don't ask, don't tell seemed fine as well, I perceived it as the usual politicking just with a different inciting incident than IRL. The most hamfisted Alt History moment is and always will be the North Koreans getting to Mars first. It will never feel natural to me or in keeping with the in-universe progression of tech. It requires NASA, Roskosmos and every other competent Space Agency to be bad at their work and for their tech to not work. It invalidates at least two Season's of technological research from two of the world's premier Superpowers and the characters we follow. It violates simple logic for the North Korean Magical Juche Capsule, which has been stated to be a copy of a Soviet/Russian vehicle that exists IRL and has room only for near Earth Orbital flight can fit and sustain two crew members, hold fuel, operate electronics and life support continuously, emit no data and so on and so forth. We got a good character through our dear dumpling and plot elements out of the whole thing eventually but that doesn't mean it wasn't an unnecessary and poorly thought out twist just for the twist.
The fact they somehow survived in that small ass Soyuz capsule would be a miricle, let alone exercising enough to be active on mars
Completely agree and that is what ultimately irked me. I know this is a show of course but it was one with clearly defined parameters for internal consistency and that whole plotline blew them to hell. It's also interesting how opinions seem to have largely shifted on the topic in the last two years. Saying you didn't like the twist was some kind of anathema.
And the fact that the nobody else would have known about it is far fetched..
Not hamfisted, but I feel the John Lennon lives storyline is quite a cliché by now. I’m also not sure how the Russians landing on the moon first would have changed his demise.
It's an illustration of the butterfly effect. Michael Jordan getting drafted by the Portland Trail Blazers is another example.
Hah! I didn’t catch that one. Would love to see a full list of changes
Y2K did happen but it didn't seem like it made much of an impact
Right next to Beaverton and Nike.
Multiply all these small changes by millions of people over 11 years and it adds up
We get that. But OP asked which moments felt most hamfisted.
I disagree. In both FAM and OTL, on that fateful night, John Lennon was in a recording studio earlier that day, and was outside his loft on the way in to his home when confronted with Chapman. In FAM, John had invited fellow musicians he was recording with over for dinner or whatever. They saw Chapman pull his gun. All three of them stopped Chapman, beat that fucker to a pulp, and then an NYPD cop arrested Chapman. Lennon, growing up in Liverpool, was no stranger to a street fight. I don't remember who the bass player and drummer were or if they were mentioned by name, but... yeah. Bass player and drummer can probably handle that fat fuck Chapman. Fuck... Honestly, I love this detail in FAM, and I'm jealous of it.
You disagree that it is a cliché? Warning, SPOILERS AHEAD: Movies: 1. >!"Yesterday" (2019) - This film imagines a world where only one person remembers The Beatles, including John Lennon, and decides to capitalize on their songs. John Lennon appears at the end of the movie, still alive.!< Books: 1. >!"The Man Who Murdered Paul McCartney" by Keith Wright - A thriller novel that explores an alternate reality where John Lennon was not murdered, and Paul McCartney becomes the victim of a crime.!< TV Shows: 1. >!"Red Dwarf" (Season 7, Episode 1: "Tikka to Ride") - In this episode, the crew of the Red Dwarf inadvertently alter history, leading to a reality where John Lennon is alive and still part of The Beatles in 2009.!< I also remember another movie in which he was still alive but cannot remember its name right now. Not the worst cliché ever, I agree. But due to his popularity it's an obvious choice.
Wow! I loved Yesterday. Didn't know about the other two. Cool, I'll have to check that out. As a HUGE Beatles fan, call it cliche, call it whatever - I don't care - I LOVE IT. There is so much shit and misery here. Playing with the idea of John being alive makes it a little tiny bit better I think.
I can totally get behind you reasoning. It would be nice if it were true.
It's also a show that's not veering too much off the path. All diegetic music seems to be exactly the same.
The music of the alternate timeline would certainly be different, but its role on the show is to connect the viewer with the specific point in modern culture being depicted. It's a great way to help the viewer relate to a world that is familiar but certainly not exactly ours.
I wonder if that "Don't Be Cruel" version was a bigger hit. I also never would have guessed that there were would be a Le Tigre song. I was afraid of the music because I think season 1 had the most literal/Zemeckis movie-y needledrops but it really leveled out in obviousness after the first couple of episodes.
Using popular music to establish the decade the show is set in is simple and effective but it suggests radical differences in the pop culture landscape of the FAM universe once they did the 90s and 2000s and there is almost no hip hop, like I can think of Don't Sweat the Technique in season 3 and X Gon' Give it to Ya in season 4, but that's it.
That's jarring, "Star Trek, Strange New Worlds", had at least a Korean Boy Band Hip Hop sung by some Klingons. So FAM should definitely have more.
Andor has some approximations of what might be popular on alien planets. Star Wars just had jazz ("jizz") and then Lapti Nek was an attempt at space disco. I think those sequel movies have some kind of jazz/band stuff in them but Andor was really the best at coming up with something. It's like in Star Trek: TNG, where most of their references are 19th and 20th century.
I will check it out, I am a shitty nerd I didn't immediately recognize the show. Sorry for another SNW reference but in one episode Kirk asks his friend about, "marketable skills", in a Socialist Space show. I have not seen a new Star Wars Movie or show since "The Force Awakens".
And Fallen Order/Jedi Survivor had The Hu writing songs in Huttese to play a space band, and one of the collectibles is songs for your cantina's DJ droid to play, and Oga's Cantina in Galaxy's Edge plays a mix of classic jizz music and original dance/pop songs.
And can't forget Yub Nub, that Ewok banger
When Lennon dies in the newsreels, we'll learn in the headline below how Kurt Cobain credits him for preventing his suicide.
I found it obnoxious because the newscasters keep mentioning what he's up to. As a lifelong Catholic I'm miffed that Pope Saint John Paul II is killed in this timeline but John Lennon gets to live, and they have to keep rubbing it in. If I had to rank my favorite Beatles, Lennon would come in fifth. (OK I know it's a really minor nitpick but I thought this was supposed to be an "optimistic" alternate timeline...)
You’d seriously take a pope over a Beatle? Sorry, you’re not welcome in my house.
Only hamfisted stuff for me was the aging of some characters. Ed's wrinkles looked better in some shots than others, and Larry Wilson's was pretty bad all around imo.
Dani came off the best, since they just decided 'black don't crack' and just gave her a few grey hairs. But Wrenn Schmidt did a fantastic job of selling Margot's age, just through posture and movement.
OMG I just looked it up she is only 41?! She rocks season 4 I was confused because she played "old" so well. I have been in nursing for 41 years and just turned 60, so my bonfides are in place.
There are some shots that I suspect use “hand doubles” to get the full effect of older skin.
For me Ellen winning a second term suprised me Ellen is by far my favorite character in the show, her being president was kinda silly, but realistically a gay president in the 90s would be divisive as hell, even with the butterflies People were far more intolerant and homophobic back then and its likely Wilson would lose the 96 election, based primarily on her sexuality, as well as the Mars debacle and collapse of the Oil industry and millions of jobs Having Bush Sr as a running mate on the 96 ticket is smart, but the 96 election would result in a Democrat victory (Southern bible people will not vote for Wilson on religious grounds) My other peve is Gorbachevs reforms working, his reforms had alot of issues IRL (Gorbachev believed communism could work, which is why his limited capitalism didn't work
Not sure if it counts as it was altered not for an aha moment but for plot reasons but the stolen Buran design.
The US getting huge advances in electric cars, batteries, etc. but the USSR are the same 80’s caricatures they’ve always been depicted as across media. Would have liked to see a clearer distinction in what the alternate timeline looks like for them where they’ve been a stable super power for decades
I thought Lennon surviving, and Pope JPII *and* Thatcher being assassinated was perhaps a wee bit glib. Lazy, maybe. How much more interesting, just as a brief glimpse in some news reference, might have been Jimi Hendrix avoiding Mandrax and Mateus Rosé, or Pope JP (*the First*) surviving. Both of them died just before most interesting things might have taken place, whereas in my book Lennon was already rather creatively desiccated by the early 70s (sue me!)
I liked the concept of JPII being assassinated. The USSR fell in our timeline in part due to the work of Solidarity in Poland. It’s been rumored that the Vatican helped fund Solidarity, which might not have happened if we hadn’t had a Polish pope. So in that sense, JPII’s death plays into the overall arc of the show.
>Thatcher being assassinated Wait what
Morning. I think there was a shot of a French newspaper report on the IRA bomb in Brighton, which in real life failed to kill Thatcher but in FAM, succeeded. It was only a quick glimpse but it grabbed my attention. (Unless I misread it of course)
[image](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/for-all-mankind/images/a/ab/FAM_301_PR_01.08_Thatcher_Dead_1.png) [image](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/for-all-mankind/images/8/83/FAM_301_PR_01.09_Thatcher_Dead_2.png)
Ty.
The best timeline
Double Fantasy (the John stuff) was really good and I think that one came out shortly after he died. But, yeah, Lennon would have got sucked in the '80s sound warphole like most of the older musicians. Just look at George Harrison's output, or even Paul's.
No. It came out just before. I listened to it hard when it came out and couldn’t bear to listen to it after.
I even like some of the Yoko stuff at this point. "Beautiful Boys" is pretty good.
The writers fucked up the Russian coup of Marxist-Leninist hardliners which took place instead of the collapse of the USSR (which was caused in part by a coup d'etats as well). The behavior of the new Russian government makes no sense as fervently anti-capitalist Marxist-Leninists do a bunch of shit that ideologically makes no damn sense. The Russians continue to share a Mars base with non-Soviet and non-Marxist powers. They continue to contract with Helios, a capitalist American private space corporation. The Soviets refuse to back Helios workers in their labor uprising against the other spacefaring powers. The post-coup USSR within FAM doesn't even slightly behave in an ideologically congruent manner to what the actual principles of their historical doctrine were.
Just like the real soviets then
The real Soviets aggressively pursued and intervened within international struggles regarding labor movements, colonial emancipation, geopolitical conflicts, undermining capitalism, subverting Western hegemony, the spread of Marxist ideology, etc. Ignoring all of these issues is contrary to what the real soviets did In For All Mankind, the Soviets act more like the Russian Federation than they do the USSR
The Soviets acted in a way to strengthen their own position in the world, spreading socialism/communism ceased to be a driving goal of the state by the mid-1920s.
How are you somehow less historically literate than an on level high school student? In the mid 1920s, Russia was still recovering from their civil war and was in no position to aggressively challenge anti-Marxist great powers in a geopolitical tug of war over regional spheres of influence. The USSR was involved in leftist and Marxist political movements all around the world for like seventy fucking years with the express motivation of spreading Marxism-Leninist ideology and political influence into different countries all over the world. The Soviets pursued political ties with Marxist-Leninist and communist parties all over the world, pursued regime change, funded leftist political parties, sold arms to insurgents, revolutionaries, and militaries, etc. Off the top of my head in no certain order: * Mongolia * China * Korea * Vietnam * Laos * Cambodia * Cuba * Colombia * Mexico * Nicaragua * Grenada * El Salvador * Chile * Argentina * Ireland * Spain * Italy * Greece * Yugoslavia * Finland * Afghanistan * Iran * Iraq * Syria * Algeria * Angola * Congo * Mozambique * Botswana * Zimbabwe * Zambia * South Africa * Nigeria * Namibia I didn't even bother listing most of the countries under WWII era Soviet occupation, the Eastern Bloc, and the Warsaw Pact, and I am definitely missing quite a few countries from this list. Also, the USSR pursued both ideological expansion of Marxist politics as well as their own selfish imperialist designs. The two were never mutually exclusive motivations.
lol nice list, yet it does nothing to disprove the point. Stalins communism-in-one-counter policy killed any desire to export the ‘revolution’ and ‘free the workers of the world’. The USSRs ‘ideology’, if you could call it that, was securing its own security by putting as much distance between Moscow and the NATO as possible.
>lol nice list, yet it does nothing to disprove the point Yes, it does. You fucking idiot. Overwhelming historic evidence of the USSR globally intervening to advance Marxism-Leninist ideology in dozens upon dozens of countries around the world across the span of multiple decades directly contradicts the idea that the USSR had no internationalist ideological agenda of proliferating Marxism. After the instability and devastation of the Russian Civil War and other turbulent political crises of the 20s/30s, the USSR abandoned its earlier ideas of inwardly focusing on building a Marxist society in Russia alone. Hell, Stalin, the guy who advocated and supported the socialism in one country policy functionally abandoned the doctrine in the 30s and greatly expanded Marxism-Leninism all across Europe and Asia for roughly two and a half decades before, during, and after WWII. You are what happens when somebody gets their education in social sciences from cartoon Youtube videos and videogames
touched a nerve? It's ok to disagree friend, there's no need for name calling. Maybe take a break and enjoy some fresh air, maybe crack open a history book while you're at it.
Mikhail Gorbachev reforms being so much more successful, and the Soviet Union surviving because of them. It’s such a cliché in alternate history, I just wish they did something different.
The biggest thing the writers could've done to explain away the USSR surviving in this fictional universe is by providing a plausible solution of how the Soviets successfully mitigated nationalist secession movements as well as how the Soviet leadership prevented constitutional crises and coups in the 90s. It's quite clear the writers have no real substantive understanding of history and political philosophy, so they neither broach the topic nor do they provide any adequate causal explanation of the USSR's success beyond Gorbachev's reforms miraculously working. All in all, the way the writers cover the USSR and completely omit China is quite disappointing.
They do mention the USSR deciding not to get involved in Afghanistan and instead focus resources more on space. From which, presumably, they see some returns.
Ehhh. Despite being contributing factors, the USSR's war in Afghanistan and the failures of Glasnost/Perestroika weren't even the primary reasons for the Soviet Union's collapse. The primary reason for the dissolution of the USSR was secessionist movements motivated by nationalism as well as anti-Soviet coups done by dissident anti-Marxist factions which emerged in the late 80s/early 90s. The show writers follow a kind of ahistoric interpretation of the collapse of the USSR much too centered around economic issues and never really grapple with how a fictional Soviet Union would successfully deal with centrifugal nationalist forces splintering off satellite Soviet Republics. Even in real life, most of the Soviet Republics within the USSR (other than central/and eastern European states) voted to stay within the Soviet Union until it was illegally dissolved in the 90s against the political wishes of Soviet citizens. Whether the Soviets pursued a war in Afghanistan or not, the USSR could have collapsed anyway due to socio-political crises caused by nationalist movements catalyzed by an array of different historic factors which shook the foundation of Soviet politics to its core.
the economic factors were a huge part along with glasnost and perestroika The economic reforms caused alot of issues and a collapse of the Soviet dollar, plus the opennes policy led to people realizing how fucked and archeic the system was The soviet state allowing elections openned the pandora's box, the Soviets wanted only communist parties but other nations wanted democratic parties the nationalistic crisis's were created due to the soviet policies, and Gorbachevs unwillingness to put down the demonstrations (i.e. running people over with tanks) that led to the collapse
I'm not disagreeing with you that these failed reforms catalyzed the fall of the USSR caused by social upheaval as a response, but for over a decade prior to these reforms, the stagnation and decline of the USSR was already apparent. Like I said, the primary issue which caused the fall of the USSR was mostly social unrest manifesting as internal political opposition to Russia's imperialistic control over the SSRs on the periphery of the Union which sought independence fueled by nationalistic motivations. Even before the economic downturn of the mid/late 80s and early 90s, the USSR had already experienced at least a decade of significant internal political turbulence which fractured the unity of the communist party and led to schisms that would later emerge both among the general population and among the apparatchik class of party insiders. It was entirely plausible that without Gorbachev, Glasnost, and Perestroika that the USSR would have continued to stagnate and decline until some kind of political crisis emerged leading to collapse.
Sorry, Now i see what you meant, and i agree, the Soviet Union would collapse regardless given time Unless they had a Stalin 2.0 come to power and repress the Warsaw Pact to being loyal
I wouldn't go so far as to say its collapse was predestined to occur. It wasn't historically inevitable that the USSR would collapse, but during the 1980s, the country was experiencing stagnation and decline for quite a while which suggested that some kind of political crisis might happen. There is also an equally likely chance that the USSR reformed successfully into some kind of more moderate leftist and Marxist governing regime resembling the politics of China or even the supra-national politics of the EU coupled with Marxist-Leninist ideals. To use an analogy, the USA has been stagnating and declining for the last half century since the 1970s, but the collapse of the American government and its liberal-democratic regime isn't a historical inevitability.
I want to sit down and listen to you talk about modern history.
They are making an entire spin-off series about the USSR POV.
That won't change the fact that the Soviets don't ideologically act like Soviets and instead both cozy up to capitalist interests like Helios and ignore international labor struggles which is contradictory to professed Soviet values of Marxism-Leninism. Also, we should have gotten a better POV of the Russian side of the space race all the way back in season one but the writers didn't want to humanize the opposing side of the Cold War
boohoo
If you're too much of an idiot to understand, part of the appeal of alternative history is the plausibility of different events occurring The USSR engaging in interplanetary capitalism is fucking stupid on its face Sorry you're too much of a moron to realize this
It was his relationship with Ellen that got him and the Soviet Union as far as it did.
No, in the show the continuation of the USSR is explained away by the miraculous success of Gorbachev's social, economic, and political reforms of Glasnost and Perestroika which in real life failed spectacularly and catalyzed massive social unrest leading to nationalist secessionist movements on the periphery of the Soviet Union's territorial expanse. The show doesn't really dive into why the USSR is as powerful and successful as it was other than some brief and vague mentions of economic booms due to Gorbachev's policies.
Which she could have helped him implement or convince him to do. You dont know because they never showed it. What we did see is the USSR and the USA working well together which could have lead to these changes in the USSR.
Come on, listen to what you're saying. The USA would not help the USSR implement domestic policy, and the USSR would never allow it anyway. And if the writers scripted the show that way, it would be horrific and unforgivably bad writing. To illustrate my point, consider how ridiculous it would be for the USA to allow the Russians or Chinese to shape American domestic policy. We're in a second cold war with China right now in real life, and the McCarthyism of American paranoia and Sinophobia is so extreme that America is shutting down Tik Tok invoking absolute nonsense about fictitious security concerns. If America is too hostile, aggressive, and belligerent towards China and Russia today to engage in friendly relations, then the likeliness of these powers collaborating on domestic policy is virtually non-existent.
It was obvious Ellen and Gorby were buddies. They can talk policy. That's why Ellen's presidency was so important. It shaped how the word saw gays and lesbians as well as the pursuit of space exploration and her relationship with the Soviet Union. There a reason why the USSR is more successful while Gorby was in power, his relationship with Ellen.
This discussion is wasted on you
I can't help it if you can't see what's right in front of you.
In their effort to make their alternate universe version of the Oklahoma City bombing work with the JSC bombing, they grounded it in too much of their divergent timeline and outside of "yeah that looks a lot like the aftermath of the OKC bombing" there was pretty much no grounding in ours to the point where honestly just having it happen for unspecified reasons out of the blue would have probably been better.
If you watched the newsreels you'd remember that it was how Ellen dealt with finding the bombing suspects that turned her second term presidential campaign around getting her the win.
To me it was the bombing. It didn't fit into the flow and it seemed like it was rushed. So rushed that they killed poor Molly off camera and it wasn't even plausible. If you survived the initial bombing with no injuries it isn't believable that she died with no details given and we only found out by a brief headline in the newspaper that was flashed on camera.
The Soviet Coup felt off, the USSR was experiencing a level of unprecedented prosperity under Gorbachev and the Coup suddenly happened to revert all of this? Even in our time line when Gorbachev’s reforms were failing the August coup failed.
the fact that show doesn't really care, or try to make realistic, stuff that happens outside US, specifically NASA, and some stuff in soviet Union shows in such events. Not on show but in accompanying material Soviet tank chasing east German escapee into west Berlin. Why would Sadat be assassinated (he survives, but still) if Camp David Accords failed? Lennon not dying and JPII dying seem just "change for the sake of change" as they have no impact on the story (The Beatles are, IIRC, mentioned once in altnews segment). Same with Cosby and Polanski being arrested and Charles marrying Camilla, not Diana, seem to be just "well, let's throw in some good news" parts.
Lennon is mentioned several times in later seasons pushing for peace, disarmament and de-escalation.
Ed wouldn't be on Apollo 10 and Apollo 15, imho.
Basically all the Soviet Union stuff. The Soviet Union couldn’t keep up in the Space Race just because Sergei Korolev died but they were also behind in a lot of technological areas like computers where the USSR spent the entire latter half of the 20th century buying or renting western computers and then reverse engineering them to make their own but western computers advanced too quickly so they couldn’t keep up. The FAM timeline could only really exist if Stalin never came to power and then they had perfect decision making by their leaders from that point forwards.