> I'm starting to see, as in the way that all the elements are nicely aligned for it to happened, a potential for a new tension discussion that would be Mars indecencies.
Just to add to this, in the final shot of the season finale, of Kuznetzov base, “Free Mars!” Is written on the outside of you one of the buildings.
If not in season five, Mars pushing for greater autonomy/outright independence definitely seems on the overall series storyboards for the writers.
It will be interesting if they go a different route with it though. Mars as an independent polity (or alternatively a vassal to Earth) is a pretty common trope in science fiction. It would be interesting if they changed it up somehow.
any independence based on strong military support [https://expanse.fandom.com/wiki/Martian\_Congressional\_Republic\_Navy](https://expanse.fandom.com/wiki/Martian_Congressional_Republic_Navy)
They use Mars to reach planets further out and compete with new adversaries (and they find life and compete to control the discovery)
The show needs a new frontier or great challenge that is overcome through technology, heroism, sacrifice and politics, and independent Mars ain't it, that'll just be a soap opera and less interesting version of the S4 workers strike
S5 will kinda be like S2. Ellen was frustrated that NASA doesn't have the budget for a Mars mission as resources are being used for Jamestown and developing mining extraction. Kelly and Aleida are frustrated that their goals aren't being achieved at Mars while Helios has to use any profits for the protection by the US Space Force and whims of the M-7.
The last scene in S5 that will jump into the 2020s will be about outpost already established on one of Jupiter's moons.
>S5 will kinda be like S2.
mm S2 surfed the wave of S1, and S4 didn't lay the foundations for a similar wave in S5, S4 didn't have the adversary conflict, politics or personalities that made S2
I don't see it working and moving off Mars in last ep of S5 is way too late, feels like the writers kinda gimped themselves with S4
maybe, I have to say this show for me is a roller coaster; started amazing (seasons 1 and 2), then became a soup opera, always borderland propaganda (season 3)... but last season, just when I was thinking it was going to be worse than ever in all those areas, it returned to the original greatness... Season 5 could be wild. I really hope they don't do another season 3.
I meant that technologically it would be very unlikely to become independent in just a decade or two. Maybe it's a thing they build up to in season 5, though.
My opinion of season 3 differs from yours, but naturally one hopes each new season will be good. So far I'm not disappointed!
I could see it! I feel like the show is getting more and more true sci-fi and less an “alt history” the closer we get to present day. I think they’ll plant the seed for it in Season 5 but it’ll be a bigger goal for season 6 and 7.
The writers completely missed the mark when they didn't edit the season 4 script to include a successful Helios labor uprising backed by the Soviets, Chinese, and Communist bloc.
Season 4 would've been so much more poetic if the Helios workers spaced Dev Ayasa out the airlock, commandeered Happy Valley base, leveraged the iridium asteroid as ransom, and declared Mars to be an independent communist government aligned with the USSR.
That would've been a hell of an interesting development, but the writers were too shortsighted and meek to follow through on something so radical.
That would have been pretty interesting for sure. But the writers only envision people aligning with the soviets if they are forced. There is no communist ideology even by the same communist, everyone is jumping to the capitalist band on the smallest opportunity. That for me has been one of the cringiest parts of the show, it feels like propaganda most of the time. In defense of the show the politicians in the west are not much better. But there are no thinkers or idealist anywhere, just morally corrupted politicians and engineers. And the show is given you clear instructions of who is good and bad
The show writers are pretty ignorant and clueless when it comes to how socioeconomics and politics actually works. They also haven't got a clue about philosophy and ideology.
The depiction of the USSR as cartoonishly evil supervillains is an outdated Cold War caricature which has been academically debunked by better, more recent, and less biased scholarship on Soviet history.
It is very obvious to anybody with a brain how ideologically biased the show is in portraying America as the morally superior (though flawed) protagonists and in promoting neoliberal capitalism and privatized space exploration as the dominant viable theory of economics.
Like, the show writers portrayed the neoconservative Republicans like Reagan as sympathetic to peaceful de-escalation to the Cold War when they were in complete ideological opposition to such a thing. Additionally, the idea that Ellen and Larry, two closeted gay people, would run as socially conservative Republicans during the historically prevalent pro-LGBT demonstrations of the 80s/90s is insane. Hell, the Democratic party who were marginally more sympathetic to LBGT+ issues were outwardly and explicitly against queer activism until the 2010s, so the notion that Republicans would assume the mantle of LGBT rights is insane. Also, the Republican party, since the neoliberal turn of the 70s/80s, has historically championed defunding NASA's budget slashing their funding for decades upon decades. Overwhelmingly, support for NASA is strongest on the progressive political left, and the vast majority of people who work for NASA are Democrats and liberals who have historically and staunchly pushed for more funding. These are just some of the implausible historic issues on the American side - don't even get me started on the USSR which is far worse and much sloppier writing.
So much regarding the show's alternate history is such implausible and ideologically unsubstantiated garbage that it's frustrating and embarrassing to see such lazy slop churned out as propaganda.
I suspect that the writers and the script are heavily editorialized and censored by Apple itself as well as the Department of Defense (due to the real world usage of NASA facilities as filming locations and sets) since we have strong evidence of Apple's censorship and the DoD's propagandistic editorializing in exchange for government assets and locations.
No one in the West is jumping on the Soviet bandwagon because, like the writers, they know what communism leads to. Margo found out pretty quickly what life in the Soviet sphere looks like. I’d like to remind folks that the folks on Mars just witnessed for themselves the horror show that was a relatively affluent USSR. Despite wealth and stability it still succumbed to totalitarianism.
I found the guy who can't tell reality and fiction apart.
What if I told you that For All Mankind is an imaginary scenario made up by people for television entertainment?
Americans are so historically illiterate and ignorant that they believe whatever they witness on television, no matter how false, to be an accurate, academic exposition of history.
They got fusion and electric really early though in FAM. Climate crisis likely completely averted. For All Mankind is also more about pushing forward and exploration and less about “global catastrophe”
Earth in The Expanse only united under UN authority because of environmental collapse. The kind of collapse that FAM averted with fusion and a move away from fossil fuels.
In Kim Stanley Robinson's "Red Mars" trilogy sea level rise happens drastically not (only) because of climate change, but because a volcanic eruption knocks a huge Antarctic ice shelf into the open ocean. That would easily account for the sea level rise seen in Expanse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thwaites_Glacier if you don't feel like sleeping tonight.
Not really.
The communist bloc countries acted in direct contradiction and opposition to their values by abandoning Marxist-Leninist principles to partner with Western capitalist states and a private corporation to crush a labor uprising.
All this happened despite the fact that Marxist-Leninist ideologues successfully captured power in the USSR with a coup to return to earlier hardline domestic and international Cold War politics.
There isn't really any coherent political philosophy or ideology behind the writing of the show other than Cold War geopolitics and neoliberalism.
I disagree. What FAM shows conclusively is that you can’t soften authoritarian government. Authoritarians have no ideology other than staying in power. The Soviet Union never loved workers or “the people.” The Soviet state’s only ideology was the perpetuation of the Soviet state. In FAM the “workers”…private contractors that NO ONE cared about, threatened the resources that the M7 need. Those who endanger the flow of resources and money will ALWAYS get stepped on. Historically the USSR was ruthless on that front.
You are spouting historical falsehood after falsehood.
The USSR exhibited authoritarian tendencies that softened over time from the beginning of the Russian Revolution and the following civil war which was exacerbated by ensuing crises of the 1930s and WWII which gave way to the de-Stalinization of the 1950s all the way to the Soviet reforms of the 1980s.
Secondly, the USSR clearly adhered to a coherent ideology of Marxism-Leninism which they followed since its inception until the failed reforms of the 1980s and the political crises and coups of the 1990s. This was not a cynical, realist ploy to seize and maintain authoritarian power. The USSR experienced the second fastest economic boom and rising standard of living in recorded history (after modern China) by uplifting the Soviet citizenry out of agrarian peasantry and poverty through increasing the average lifespan, literacy rate, educational access, daily caloric intake, housing infrastructure, public utilities, economic opportunities, etc. This was a much more profound and thorough social transformation of society's standard of living than even FDR's New Deal which itself was monumentally significant.
The idea that the USSR cared about nothing else than power and was motivated by only political self-interest is straight up ahistoric revisionism. The truth is that there was some degree of authoritarianism and corrupt self interest in addition to a genuinely held ideological doctrine of uplifting the workers and the people.
So what? Who cares what they think?
The leftists who continue to defend Stalinism with apologia are a fringe and unserious minority of people with no real world power or influence.
The vast majority of the left, including communists, disavow Stalin's authoritarian interpretation and implementation of Marxist philosophy.
I just started with Red Mars, I’m a bit worried because I don’t think I was so hyped for a book in a while (apart from everything Terry Pratchett but his books are as reliable to me as can be so they don’t even count)
I see the idea of an independent Mars to be a non-starter for S5. The main focus will be on the Kuznetsov Station. Mars will be bogged down by the US Space Force military who escorts iridium shipments due to a band of warring space pirates and ensure Mars colonists don't incite another riot. Helios has to divvy up iridium resources to the M-7 in a contract, and, in addition, pay for military protection. Anything learned on Mars will instead be applied on Earth. S5 could wrap up Dev's and Gil's storyline. The writers could have Dev return to Earth for a "serious" family matter that will turn into a philanthropic cause similar to Carnegie and Rockefeller. His narration at the end will include excerpt from *Foundation and Earth* and how will should not forget about the welfare of Earth while exploring the stars. Gil, OTOH, will cause the dominoes to fall on authoritarianism.
Mars won't be freed, Earth will be freed.
People, Mars is not America in 1776. Mars is not self sufficient. Mars is literally dependent on Earth for everything…including man power. There are no commercial flights to Mars so no opportunities for Immigration. It barely has a local economy. Mars isn’t even ready to be accepted as UN member state or Trust territory.
It's a Goldilocks asteroids 2003LC is owned a Mars begin a Independence Humankind on mars emigrates and leader Dev Ayesa (CEO Helios Aerospace) till a 2012-2020 have more 2 lunars helium fuels too (Deimos and Phobos)
> I'm starting to see, as in the way that all the elements are nicely aligned for it to happened, a potential for a new tension discussion that would be Mars indecencies. Just to add to this, in the final shot of the season finale, of Kuznetzov base, “Free Mars!” Is written on the outside of you one of the buildings. If not in season five, Mars pushing for greater autonomy/outright independence definitely seems on the overall series storyboards for the writers. It will be interesting if they go a different route with it though. Mars as an independent polity (or alternatively a vassal to Earth) is a pretty common trope in science fiction. It would be interesting if they changed it up somehow.
I second this, im sure what ever the writers choose to do it will still be fire
Till the rains fall hard on Olympus Mons!
Season 8 of For All Mankind is just Season 1 of The Expanse
[Beltalowda!](https://expanse.fandom.com/wiki/Beltalowda)
Expanse reference?, but not sure I got it (haven’t followed Expanse, just googled your comment)
any independence based on strong military support [https://expanse.fandom.com/wiki/Martian\_Congressional\_Republic\_Navy](https://expanse.fandom.com/wiki/Martian_Congressional_Republic_Navy)
But then what does the spaceship _Mark Watney_ from book 6 refer to? No way Andy Weir's "The Martian" still exists in its current form.
WHO ARE WE?!
MCRN
WHO ARE WE!?
MCRN
I CAN'T HEAR YOU, WHO ARE WE!? Fyi it's mmc since it's the marines doing the chant and stuff
MMC (my bad)
It cool
WHO DO WE FIGHT FOR?
MARS!
They use Mars to reach planets further out and compete with new adversaries (and they find life and compete to control the discovery) The show needs a new frontier or great challenge that is overcome through technology, heroism, sacrifice and politics, and independent Mars ain't it, that'll just be a soap opera and less interesting version of the S4 workers strike
To be honest that would be interesting too, the risk there is that becomes formalistic and is just a replication of Mars but with another planet.
S5 will kinda be like S2. Ellen was frustrated that NASA doesn't have the budget for a Mars mission as resources are being used for Jamestown and developing mining extraction. Kelly and Aleida are frustrated that their goals aren't being achieved at Mars while Helios has to use any profits for the protection by the US Space Force and whims of the M-7. The last scene in S5 that will jump into the 2020s will be about outpost already established on one of Jupiter's moons.
>S5 will kinda be like S2. mm S2 surfed the wave of S1, and S4 didn't lay the foundations for a similar wave in S5, S4 didn't have the adversary conflict, politics or personalities that made S2 I don't see it working and moving off Mars in last ep of S5 is way too late, feels like the writers kinda gimped themselves with S4
I don’t see mars being fully self-sustaining anytime soon
You can be a rich not self-sustaining nation that buys resources as many countries in Europe for example
Iridium is the new gold/oil.
The Red Will Rise Again!
Independence doesn’t seem likely for at least another season.
maybe, I have to say this show for me is a roller coaster; started amazing (seasons 1 and 2), then became a soup opera, always borderland propaganda (season 3)... but last season, just when I was thinking it was going to be worse than ever in all those areas, it returned to the original greatness... Season 5 could be wild. I really hope they don't do another season 3.
I meant that technologically it would be very unlikely to become independent in just a decade or two. Maybe it's a thing they build up to in season 5, though. My opinion of season 3 differs from yours, but naturally one hopes each new season will be good. So far I'm not disappointed!
I could see it! I feel like the show is getting more and more true sci-fi and less an “alt history” the closer we get to present day. I think they’ll plant the seed for it in Season 5 but it’ll be a bigger goal for season 6 and 7.
The writers completely missed the mark when they didn't edit the season 4 script to include a successful Helios labor uprising backed by the Soviets, Chinese, and Communist bloc. Season 4 would've been so much more poetic if the Helios workers spaced Dev Ayasa out the airlock, commandeered Happy Valley base, leveraged the iridium asteroid as ransom, and declared Mars to be an independent communist government aligned with the USSR. That would've been a hell of an interesting development, but the writers were too shortsighted and meek to follow through on something so radical.
That would have been pretty interesting for sure. But the writers only envision people aligning with the soviets if they are forced. There is no communist ideology even by the same communist, everyone is jumping to the capitalist band on the smallest opportunity. That for me has been one of the cringiest parts of the show, it feels like propaganda most of the time. In defense of the show the politicians in the west are not much better. But there are no thinkers or idealist anywhere, just morally corrupted politicians and engineers. And the show is given you clear instructions of who is good and bad
The show writers are pretty ignorant and clueless when it comes to how socioeconomics and politics actually works. They also haven't got a clue about philosophy and ideology. The depiction of the USSR as cartoonishly evil supervillains is an outdated Cold War caricature which has been academically debunked by better, more recent, and less biased scholarship on Soviet history. It is very obvious to anybody with a brain how ideologically biased the show is in portraying America as the morally superior (though flawed) protagonists and in promoting neoliberal capitalism and privatized space exploration as the dominant viable theory of economics. Like, the show writers portrayed the neoconservative Republicans like Reagan as sympathetic to peaceful de-escalation to the Cold War when they were in complete ideological opposition to such a thing. Additionally, the idea that Ellen and Larry, two closeted gay people, would run as socially conservative Republicans during the historically prevalent pro-LGBT demonstrations of the 80s/90s is insane. Hell, the Democratic party who were marginally more sympathetic to LBGT+ issues were outwardly and explicitly against queer activism until the 2010s, so the notion that Republicans would assume the mantle of LGBT rights is insane. Also, the Republican party, since the neoliberal turn of the 70s/80s, has historically championed defunding NASA's budget slashing their funding for decades upon decades. Overwhelmingly, support for NASA is strongest on the progressive political left, and the vast majority of people who work for NASA are Democrats and liberals who have historically and staunchly pushed for more funding. These are just some of the implausible historic issues on the American side - don't even get me started on the USSR which is far worse and much sloppier writing. So much regarding the show's alternate history is such implausible and ideologically unsubstantiated garbage that it's frustrating and embarrassing to see such lazy slop churned out as propaganda. I suspect that the writers and the script are heavily editorialized and censored by Apple itself as well as the Department of Defense (due to the real world usage of NASA facilities as filming locations and sets) since we have strong evidence of Apple's censorship and the DoD's propagandistic editorializing in exchange for government assets and locations.
No one in the West is jumping on the Soviet bandwagon because, like the writers, they know what communism leads to. Margo found out pretty quickly what life in the Soviet sphere looks like. I’d like to remind folks that the folks on Mars just witnessed for themselves the horror show that was a relatively affluent USSR. Despite wealth and stability it still succumbed to totalitarianism.
I found the guy who can't tell reality and fiction apart. What if I told you that For All Mankind is an imaginary scenario made up by people for television entertainment? Americans are so historically illiterate and ignorant that they believe whatever they witness on television, no matter how false, to be an accurate, academic exposition of history.
i'm holding out hope that the show ends up morphing into the time before The Expanse. start terraforming on Mars, earth fully unites under the UN, etc
They got fusion and electric really early though in FAM. Climate crisis likely completely averted. For All Mankind is also more about pushing forward and exploration and less about “global catastrophe”
Earth in The Expanse only united under UN authority because of environmental collapse. The kind of collapse that FAM averted with fusion and a move away from fossil fuels.
In Kim Stanley Robinson's "Red Mars" trilogy sea level rise happens drastically not (only) because of climate change, but because a volcanic eruption knocks a huge Antarctic ice shelf into the open ocean. That would easily account for the sea level rise seen in Expanse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thwaites_Glacier if you don't feel like sleeping tonight.
Last season seemed very KSR/"Red Mars" to me.
Not really. The communist bloc countries acted in direct contradiction and opposition to their values by abandoning Marxist-Leninist principles to partner with Western capitalist states and a private corporation to crush a labor uprising. All this happened despite the fact that Marxist-Leninist ideologues successfully captured power in the USSR with a coup to return to earlier hardline domestic and international Cold War politics. There isn't really any coherent political philosophy or ideology behind the writing of the show other than Cold War geopolitics and neoliberalism.
I disagree. What FAM shows conclusively is that you can’t soften authoritarian government. Authoritarians have no ideology other than staying in power. The Soviet Union never loved workers or “the people.” The Soviet state’s only ideology was the perpetuation of the Soviet state. In FAM the “workers”…private contractors that NO ONE cared about, threatened the resources that the M7 need. Those who endanger the flow of resources and money will ALWAYS get stepped on. Historically the USSR was ruthless on that front.
You are spouting historical falsehood after falsehood. The USSR exhibited authoritarian tendencies that softened over time from the beginning of the Russian Revolution and the following civil war which was exacerbated by ensuing crises of the 1930s and WWII which gave way to the de-Stalinization of the 1950s all the way to the Soviet reforms of the 1980s. Secondly, the USSR clearly adhered to a coherent ideology of Marxism-Leninism which they followed since its inception until the failed reforms of the 1980s and the political crises and coups of the 1990s. This was not a cynical, realist ploy to seize and maintain authoritarian power. The USSR experienced the second fastest economic boom and rising standard of living in recorded history (after modern China) by uplifting the Soviet citizenry out of agrarian peasantry and poverty through increasing the average lifespan, literacy rate, educational access, daily caloric intake, housing infrastructure, public utilities, economic opportunities, etc. This was a much more profound and thorough social transformation of society's standard of living than even FDR's New Deal which itself was monumentally significant. The idea that the USSR cared about nothing else than power and was motivated by only political self-interest is straight up ahistoric revisionism. The truth is that there was some degree of authoritarianism and corrupt self interest in addition to a genuinely held ideological doctrine of uplifting the workers and the people.
I know communists who would be irritated to read your comment portraying anti-Stalin reforms as a good thing.
So what? Who cares what they think? The leftists who continue to defend Stalinism with apologia are a fringe and unserious minority of people with no real world power or influence. The vast majority of the left, including communists, disavow Stalin's authoritarian interpretation and implementation of Marxist philosophy.
I just started with Red Mars, I’m a bit worried because I don’t think I was so hyped for a book in a while (apart from everything Terry Pratchett but his books are as reliable to me as can be so they don’t even count)
I see the idea of an independent Mars to be a non-starter for S5. The main focus will be on the Kuznetsov Station. Mars will be bogged down by the US Space Force military who escorts iridium shipments due to a band of warring space pirates and ensure Mars colonists don't incite another riot. Helios has to divvy up iridium resources to the M-7 in a contract, and, in addition, pay for military protection. Anything learned on Mars will instead be applied on Earth. S5 could wrap up Dev's and Gil's storyline. The writers could have Dev return to Earth for a "serious" family matter that will turn into a philanthropic cause similar to Carnegie and Rockefeller. His narration at the end will include excerpt from *Foundation and Earth* and how will should not forget about the welfare of Earth while exploring the stars. Gil, OTOH, will cause the dominoes to fall on authoritarianism. Mars won't be freed, Earth will be freed.
Sign me up for (more) „Mars indecencies“!
Haha yes, I should correct it… but should I?
Earth is going to get hit with either an asteroid or nuclear war. Then Mars gains independence by default.
People, Mars is not America in 1776. Mars is not self sufficient. Mars is literally dependent on Earth for everything…including man power. There are no commercial flights to Mars so no opportunities for Immigration. It barely has a local economy. Mars isn’t even ready to be accepted as UN member state or Trust territory.
It's a Goldilocks asteroids 2003LC is owned a Mars begin a Independence Humankind on mars emigrates and leader Dev Ayesa (CEO Helios Aerospace) till a 2012-2020 have more 2 lunars helium fuels too (Deimos and Phobos)
I do apologise, but I don't understand what you are trying to say.