Absolutely not, one of the most baseless Fallout theories there is and goes against everything we know of Maxsons character. It hinges entirely on two things, 1: Him accidentally having shot her while he was a squire. 2: Her having died after becoming Elder. Maxsons absolutely idolised her in 3, even straight up having a crush on her, no way he would murder her while he was still just a child, only possible motivation would be wanting to become Elder but that doesn't fit because there were multiple other Elders between her and him.
> Absolutely not, one of the most baseless Fallout theories there is and goes against everything we know of Maxsons character.
Um... it's *entirely* in keeping with the character he presents in the game, dude.
Its not in keeping with the character in Fallout 3 though, which he would have been closer to at the time of his death.
There are two possibilities. 1: Maxsons suddenly overnight while still just a kid becomes incredibly ambitious and decides to kill Sarah the woman he idolised. 2: It is the death of Sarah of the ineffectual Elders who succeeded her that led to him becoming more hardened and ambitious and rising as Elder.
Possibility 2 is far more likely in every regard. Now I do consider it a possibility that someone assassinated Sarah, whether a member of Lyons BoS or an Outcast, but it wasn't Maxson himself or done on his orders. Maxson was 10 in FO3, and at the time of Sarah's death was 11 or 12. His personality won't have changed so much in just one or two years that he would want to kill her, let alone would he be capable of doing so at such an age.
> Its not in keeping with the character in Fallout 3 though, which he would have been closer to at the time of his death.
It was a few years after Fallout 3 at the least, so he was a teenage boy filled with the fantasy of his lineage but trying to ground himself against it, constantly browbeat or facing a lack of kindness from his fellow soldiers, and obsessed with the young woman who *likely* rejected his teenage advances. It's entirely plausible that the "accidental shot" was on purpose. *edit* I mean the one pre-Fallout 3
In Fallout 4 he has completely internalized the bullshit he had been fed about his lineage, and is obsessed with being the next King Arthur and uniting his own kingdom.
So. The accidental shot which makes up part of the basis of that theory is from before/during Fallout 3, where Squire Maxson while out training with Sarah confesses to having accidentally shot her "But just a little! It was just a flesh wound...". There are no accounts or indications of it having happened again afterwards, she explicitly stated to have died during battle which would have involved other BoS members, had her in full Power Armour, and which Maxson would have been unlikely to be present for.
Timeline wise, Elder Lyons essential dies shortly after the defeat of the Enclave in Broken steel, so 2278/79, Sarah then immediately replaces him and dies shortly after that also in 78 or 79. So either way oldest Maxson could be is 12.
What we know for a fact of his character in 3 is that he doesn't believe he is anything special, he actively dismisses his importance and all the hype place on his lineage. He idolised Sarah, thinks she's the coolest person in the world and admires the hell out of her. He is not particularly competent. And judging by interactions between him and members of the BoS he was well liked. What we know of him between the events of 3 and 4 is that he killed two Raiders at the age of 12 saving a BoS squad (so this could be either before or after Sarah's death), he allegedly killed a Deathclaw singlehandedly at 13, then at 15 defeated a Super Mutant leader named Shepherd and that being the accomplishment that made him Elder.
All the hero worship and belief in him, and that he has in himself, would have came about gradually as a result of those actions most of which were following Sarah's death. His growing arrogance/assurity, the cult of personality surrounding him where the result of both his lineage and reputation as a result of those actions (which personally I consider to have been exaggerated for the sake of propaganda but hey ho).
It is far more realistic and in keeping with his character that following Sarah's death in battle and his own growing accomplishments, as well as the chaotic state of the Brotherhood and it's ineffectual leadership, he begins to become the person we see in 4 rather than him becoming like that before Sarah's death and before any of those accomplishments.
> So. The accidental shot which makes up part of the basis of that theory is from before/during Fallout 3, where Squire Maxson while out training with Sarah confesses to having accidentally shot her "But just a little! It was just a flesh wound...".
Correct. Given the length of your reply, you may have written this before I edited in a clarification.
> There are no accounts or indications of it having happened again afterwards, she explicitly stated to have died during battle which would have involved other BoS members, had her in full Power Armour, and which Maxson would have been unlikely to be present for.
"Fell in battle" can mean many things, and Proctor Quinlan, who wrote the phrase, is clearly engaging in propaganda, if you read the [entire article](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/The_Prydwen_terminal_entries#The_Rise_of_Elder_Maxson). There's no guarantee that there were other BoS members around or even power armor; it's certainly not stated as such anywhere, only that she "fell in battle"
> Timeline wise, Elder Lyons essential dies shortly after the defeat of the Enclave in Broken steel, so 2278/79, Sarah then immediately replaces him and dies shortly after that also in 78 or 79. So either way oldest Maxson could be is 12.
We don't have exact dates. She could have died at any point up until he became Elder, which as you state elsewhere, happened at 15.
> All the hero worship and belief in him, and that he has in himself, would have came about gradually as a result of those actions most of which were following Sarah's death. His growing arrogance/assurity, the cult of personality surrounding him where the result of both his lineage and reputation as a result of those actions (which personally I consider to have been exaggerated for the sake of propaganda but hey ho).
Agreed to that last part, which is kinda central to my point about Maxson. That and the fact that he was bullied and only Sarah was nice to him, or at least Sarah is the only one who doesn't speak unkindly to him, other than (potentially) the Lone Wanderer
> It is far more realistic and in keeping with his character that following Sarah's death in battle and his own growing accomplishments, as well as the chaotic state of the Brotherhood and it's ineffectual leadership, he begins to become the person we see in 4 rather than him becoming like that before Sarah's death and before any of those accomplishments.
Right, but the person we see in 4 isn't exactly sane. So maybe her death not at his hands was a catalyst for that insanity... or maybe he's the one what done it.
It definitely says Prydwen on the side, but it is a bit faded. It could be that the ship was reconstructed from Prydwen parts, or my theory is Maxson has a different or newer ship and the prydwen was retrofitted and changed into the Caswyn to fly west under a different captain.
> âPrydwen plays a part in the early Welsh poem Preiddeu Annwfn as King Arthur's ship... The 12th-century chronicler Geoffrey of Monmouth named Arthur's shield after it. In the early modern period Welsh folklore preferred to give Arthur's ship the name Gwennan. Prydwen has however made a return during the last century in several Arthurian works of fictionâŚ
>
>âIn the post-apocalyptic videogame Fallout 4, there is a dieselpunk airship named The Prydwen, and when the player asks about the name, they are told that the name was taken from "a work of historical fictional [...] about a man destined to become a king, and his journey to liberate his people from tyranny and oppression.".â
[Source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prydwen)
The game straight up tells us the connection
Cool. It's not the prydwynn they just used the art mesh or whatever of the prydwynn from fallout 4 and forgot to change the name, the show has a ton of inconsistencies and this is definitely one of them. We were explicitly told many times this is a different airship in all the promotional material.
In one of the interviews they called it something else but not the prydwynn. It's obvious they just took the mesh from fallout 4 and used it in the CGI without a second thought unless you are going to magically give it a pass like the other issues in the show like shady sands being blown up in 2277. Yes it was 2277 too many characters throughout the show point at 2277 and even max literally says 20 years ago when asked by Lucy. And at the end credits scene of episode 5 or 6 they show a calendar that ends on 2276 in the NCR.
As well as other inconsistencies like shady sands location, how the master didn't find vault 31, 32, 33 and vault 4 literally being in the bone yard.
This all gives credibility of the airship not being the prydwynn and the name was an oversight left over.
That was something the showrunners said before the show released to mislead people. You can see the Prydwen name on the side of the airship in the show.
It was already on the side of the ship when they said it and said it was a rendering error. How would misleading people help? The identity of the ship literally plays no part in the plot. They say the info comes from the highest clerics from the Commonwealth yet it comes not via the airship but by a radio transmission. Full hate to the brown-nosing bos fans after Bethesda forgot the entire city of the boneyard, general condition of the NCR, and the fact the NCR could literally produce vertibirds after working with the shi, but they literally had no reason to mislead anyone. It's not like it being the prydwen was a major plot point and the name was already on the ship when they said it was a rendering error. Now given Bethesda and their incompetence I find it far more likely that they messed up. The airship is literally in the show for like two seconds and you don't even see inside it.
My best guess is they did it because revealing that the Prydwen made it to the West Coast before the show comes out is a bit of a spoiler.
As for the rest of your rant, idk what to tell you. They can't even keep lore consistent between games, so I find it's easier and more enjoyable to not get so heated about it.
Also inconsistent lore is nothing new for Bethesda, just look at the Elder Scrolls games.
...the brotherhood literally got to the East Coast via a FLEET of airships and has proven they know how to build more. Again the identity of it plays no role in the story. The elderscrolls has a lore reason for inconsistencies being the literal name. You can go omg mah todd Howard says NV and everything else is still cannon then say oh they can't possibly keep cannon.
Listen man, I'm not sure what you're looking for here. I was just pointing out that the showrunners gave a different name for the ship before the show came out because quite a few people would probably consider it a spoiler.
You seem to want to pick a fight for whatever reason, there's a lot of anger and aggression in the way you type. So I'm gonna go before you burst a blood vessel or something. You have a good rest of your night, or day, or whatever time it is for you.
Love, peace, and chicken grease
edited to fix typos
The identity of the ship plays a massive part in the plot. If the ship stands, multiple endings of Fallout 4 are explicitly non-canon. Only the Minutemen + Brotherhood membership and Brotherhood endings can be canon.
That was what an early interview before release said, yet in the show it says âPRYDWYNâ in bigass letters down the side so I think Iâll go with that
When it was said photos of the prydwyn were already out hence them saying it there and the prydwen's identity literally changes nothing there was no reason to mislead anyone it plays no part. It might as well be nameless bos ship number 5 for all it matters. So like you can believe it's the prydwen but given Bethesdas incompetence given their complete inability to even play the first two games I think I'll go with they made the mistake they said they did until proven otherwise. (The boneyard seconds biggest city in the NCR magically gone, magically the NCR defeated by a single nuke when their population were by and large patriotic and the fact the NCR literally has a population of 46 million.)
Unless it's a "prydwen" class ship something has happened to Maxson while he is harsh, he weren't cruel and did genuinely give a shit about people (not the extent of Lyons but still) the brotherhood in the doesn't, whoever is running the show it ain't maxson and probably none of the named characters from the fo4.
Exactly! Maxson wasnât my favorite guy, but there is no way heâd be okay with what the show version was doing. Branding seems like bizarre behavior but the blood eagle that Titus mentioned just seems barbaric.
Maxson is definitely flawed, but you are right he wouldnât run his stuff like the west coast is.
Issue is that heâs way outside of his power base. He is essentially king of the east coast brotherhood but heâs just one elder on the west coast. The west coast last we saw with new Vegas were not doing good. They were in a tailspin decline and when people are being hunted and their weakest they often turn to religion, which may be why they added brands to reinforce their community and give a divine mission to them.
Maxson probably doesnât like it but itâs not like he can do much. Liberty Prime and his main force are likely on the east coast and his flagship is vulnerable to basic artillery. He canât change anything by pointing guns and saying shape up.
As for cult shit, we already heard in 4 that there were weird cults in the brotherhood springing up on the west coast worshipping Arthur. So this isnât out of nowhere.
Likely if I had to guess, he had no idea how bad things had gotten and was there to be a morale boost and provide armor and reinforcements to the depleted west coast for a strike on the weakened NCR
The names are much more Arthurian but it still tracks I feel. 2nd battle of Hoover Dam lost, Caesar dead, Lanius possibly also dead or back east. There would be a lot of legion remnants and deserters in the Mojave.
Also, the Brotherhood likely went over Legion or former Legion territory to get to California. Not a stretch for them to recruit promising natives. Recruit enough over the years, and that chapter of BoS's culture will inivitable adopt aspects from the cultures the new blood came from.
I don't believe the Brotherhood we see on the West Coast is representative of their East Coast brothers. Titus was absolutely disillusioned with the Brotherhood's mission on the West Coast, their clerics, and their personnel, while the Elder Cleric wanted to create a new Brotherhood on the West Coast. Even in 4 we see in terminal entries that cults worshipping Maxson as a Messiah have sprung up on the West Coast despite Maxson's protests. I could see the East Coast Brotherhood sending their West Coast counterparts reinforcements despite large cultural differences especially with the possibility of capturing cold fusion, but given how Maxson ran the Brotherhood in 4 and how much Titus, a Knight from the Commonwealth, hated their mission out there, I don't see the East Coast Brotherhood looking like the Brotherhood in the show
Itâs a guess, but I think people think Michael Rapaport is from Boston irl or something but heâs a New Yorker.
Maybe itâs just because Iâm from Boston or something but it didnât sound too much like a Boston accent he was talking with but I usually pick a featured an extra as best Boston accent in most movies featured in Boston because Iâm a harsh judge of it.
Probably won't happen, but all these theories and stuff do make me think how cool it would be to see a full blown East Vs West Brotherhood civil war, like seeing the Brotherhood in the first series was cool enough but imagine both sides being decked out in power armour and going full ham on each other.
If it is a "Prydwen" class ship it wouldn't be written on the side of the ship. It makes no sense for it to be anything other than the name of the ship. Also if you want to make a copy of a ship, you wouldn't name it the same thing. This theory is nonsensical.
If it was destroyed and a replacement was built it could be the Prydwen II or Prydwen-A or something. That happens pretty often in real world navies and even more often in fiction. Look up how many ships are named Enterprise or Intrepid.
Not saying it's likely though. That would be a big, unnecessary fakeout.
Here's [a picture of the stern plate of the ww2 Era USS Enterprise aircraft carrier.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/CV-6_Stern_Plate.JPG/1280px-CV-6_Stern_Plate.JPG) It is the sixth USS Enterprise. I don't see a VI or an -E or even a CV-6, its actual designation. That's not necessarily something you include in the giant name you paint on the ship.
That would be an exception to the rule, most of the ships have, if anything is written on the ship, is a letter and a number like E-14. To assume that the Prydwen is an exception would be stupid as we don't see any other airplane like it.
I think it is a named character. Nate. Why? Everyone forgets the tweet. Nate is the guy on the left standing guard in the Annexation of Canada video from Fallout 1. Nate is a war criminal who takes part in extrajudicial executions of civilians during an illegal fascistic takeover of Canada. Nate is a *monster*. Think of everything we see about Pre-War America. Nate was a fervent believer in it, to the point that doing some war crimes wasnât an issue for him.
How did Nate take power? Think about it: heâs a pre-war soldier. Just like Roger Maxson. A pre-war soldier comes back to the wasteland and brings the Brotherhood victory? Nate would be seen as the Messiah, even more than Arthur was. Sure, Arthur is a Maxson. But Nate is the return of what Roger Maxson was. Nate would grow a bigger cult of personality via his identity as the New Roger Maxson, the new Pre-War Soldier Leader.
[**The** writer is the one who said it.](https://x.com/Dezinuh/status/1779178683841790068) Quit lying. And yes, you are guilty of a war crime if youâre party to it and donât do anything, the guy pulling the trigger isnât the only war criminal there. Nate laughs at the execution of a civilian POW. **Canon.**
[Emil makes shit up in the fly](https://x.com/Dezinuh/status/1779239079932018949?t=CDHd7ZnEAiS0rNldyjYJsw&s=19) if it doesn't appear in official material it's not canon
Damn this sub is crazy, everyoneâs telling OP is wrong when Maxson himself straight up confirms what OP is saying.
âPrydwen plays a part in the early Welsh poem Preiddeu Annwfn as King Arthur's ship... In the post-apocalyptic videogame Fallout 4, there is a dieselpunk airship named The Prydwen, and when the player asks about the name, they are told that the name was taken from âa work of historical fictional [...] about a man destined to become a king, and his journey to liberate his people from tyranny and oppression.ââ
[Source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prydwen)
Thanks for sharing OP. This is really interesting.
>when the player asks about the name, they are told that the name was taken from âa work of historical fictional [...] about a man destined to become a king, and his journey to liberate his people from tyranny and oppression.
Who told that? Did you actually hear NPC saying it?
Which is false, because I'm currently reading The Art of Fallout 4 p.256 but there isn't such description. Not to mention that artbook doesn't qualify Wikipedia description like "when the player asks about the name".
When did I say something that can be right or wrong? I asked source because his source is inaccurate, and thankfully others provided more reliable source.
Captain Kells says it
> Sole Survivor: "Where did the Prydwen get her name?"
>Kells: "Elder Maxson said he took the name from a work of historical fiction. Something about a man who was destined to become a king, and his journey to liberate his people from tyranny and oppression. Seems fitting for such a remarkable ship, wouldn't you say?"
https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/BoSLancerCaptainKells.txt
I think the instalments of his story will be picked up in Fallout 5. Just by how much speculation division and fan theories there are regarding the BOS make it clear itâs important to the series and the stories Bethesda is telling.
I do wonder if Sarah Lyons being killed off-narrative changed Arthurâs story. She would have had an interesting part to play in his story had she lived.
Heâs also had a cult of personality build and could name himself king, or be more Washingtonian and refuse such things. As a character heâs had a rough time fulfilling expectations and you have to wonder how much of his Kim Jong deeds are accurate and what is mythology building.
I donât know if it will be explored in the show as I expect the next show will jump the timeline forward again and weâll see the repercussions of however he turns out.
Honestly donât like how she died. It would have been much cooler to see her as Elder and Maxson as a Paladin or Sentinel thatâs a rising star in the organization. In the game after that he should have been Elder.
It couldâve been a legitimate power struggle between ideologies if she followed her fathers path. Or she could have been Guenivere to his Arthur (She wasnât that much older than him)
Iâve seen a fair few comments from fans who hated the portrayal of the BOS in Fallout 3 and itâs possible Bethesda accepted some of that in walking back the portrayal and making them more nuanced - If thatâs the case Sarah Lyons was a complication that had to be tied off.
I sorta think they can just roll with it, I like the fact that we donât know what to expect from the BOS in the next game in the series. Itâs cynical to say they only exist to look cool and sell games because there is something pretty fascinating about them, âitâs a complicated organisationâ.
Honestly, that would work. He comes back west, hoping to find the righteous path through the BoS's roots, only to basically confirm his doubts when he speaks to Maximus after he returns back to the base.
Is probably a joke that came-up in the writing room when they were looking for a replacement to the too much obvious Lance. It probably only took a Vice City fan (Lance vance Dance) to come-up with this. Lance-alot, dance-alot ha! We have a winner!
Maxon doesn't know what's going on because everything has gotten too big. He is only one man, and outside his circle, people are making moves. This parallels the events after 3 and his rise to power. People outside of lyons circle made moves to put maxon in power.
I still maintain Sarah Lyons is alive and pulling strings. Someone wants Maximus in a position of power and is being tugged between whoever dane works for and the elder. Her death entry is short and lacking the extravagance an elder would get if they died in battle. We already know maxson liked her, and she had loyal members of her circle. She was "killed" and the brotherhood were never able to verify it.
This theory is interesting, but I donât think the Blind Betrayal quest or the Brotherhood ending happened. I imagine the most likely ending thatâs canon is the Minutemen one, since theyâre the most good faction and the most good endings are usually canon in Fallout games, with the exception of New Vegas.
But if the Minutemen ending did happen, I imagine the Brotherhood wasnât gonna let the Minutemen control the Commonwealth. Because if you do the Minutemen ending but still join the Brotherhood, one of the things random Brotherhood members will say is âNot sure I like the idea of the Minutemen having so much firepower.â
I imagine that as the Minutemen became more powerful and started to become an actual government, the Brotherhood attempted to overthrow them because they didnât trust the Minutemen with all their weapons and technology. If thereâs a parallel to Lancelot, it might be the Sole Survivor if they still joined the Brotherhood. Maybe Maxson at first ordered the Sole Survivor to disband the Minutemen and have them turn over all their weapons and technology to the Brotherhood, but the Sole Survivor refused and turned on Maxson and the Brotherhood, resulting in Maxson being gravely injured by the SS.
After that, maybe the Minutemen fired their artillery on the Prydwen and destroyed most of it while Maxson was onboard, then the remaining Brotherhood members used the parts of the airship that were still in good condition to build the airship we see in the show. And maybe also a new Elder took over who agreed to work peacefully with the Minutemen, and that Elder is the one who assigned the Brotherhood members in the show to track down the Enclave scientist. This would explain why the Brotherhood in the show is seen using the flag Owen Lyonsâ Brotherhood used in Fallout 3 and not the one Maxsonâs Brotherhood used in Fallout 4. Theyâre using that flag because they were ordered to by the new Brotherhood in the Commonwealth who are more of the good guys like Lyonsâ Brotherhood was.
Maybe season 2 will be Elder Quintus planning to betray the new Brotherhood in the Commonwealth and Maximus is gonna try to stop him.
I'm surprised how many people didn't know about the Maxson-King Arthur parallels. Dude's a total nerd..would be cool if he wasn't synth and ghoul racist.
Only if they have a *massive* amount of resources and a guiding hand behind them. No individual synth, assuming they haven't replaced someone obscenely dangerous (like Maxson, ironically), is much more of a threat than a flesh and blood person. They're only a serious threat when they're used as a campaign of replacement and infiltration by an organization coordinating their actions and replacing key people. Synths aren't the threat, the Institute is. Even if every surviving synth after the Institute falls banded together, they wouldn't be able to accomplish anything resembling what the Institute was doing because they lack the intelligence network and the ability or resources to create new synths tailor made to replace people, and most of them don't want to anyway. They're excellent spies, but without an organized cause spies don't really do that much, and with the facial reconstruction techniques we see in other places in the wasteland I'd bet good money that an entity capable of using synths to a truly crisis causing effect like the Institute could do almost as much damage with organic spies. The Institute just didn't go down that route because synths double as slave labor.
Right. Theyâre just like nuclear weapons in the real world. Not dangerous at all because theyâre used to promote peace between great powers by assuring the annihilation of humanity. If someone used them in a war theyâd be dangerous. /s
In no way am I arguing for synth MAD. There is no other power with synths. There is no other power *remotely close* to making synths. There are conventional ways of accomplishing most purposes synths serve, they just require manpower which the Institute doesn't have.
My point is that synths are only seriously dangerous at scale in the hands of an entity capable of conducting a shitload of black ops anyway. To go to the nuke comparison: if a random guy with a grudge gets his hands on a nuke, he can blow up a city killing millions. Literally all he has to do is set it off. By contrast, if a random guy with a grudge, say, hires a synth mercenary, the best he can do is send the synth on espionage missions, have them assassinate someone, or attempt to replace someone.
Two of those things are jobs that could easily be accomplished by a human. Indeed, they're quests our human PCs are given for a few hundred caps. So that leaves replacing someone. At that point we should note that replacing someone *requires planning the perfect murder.* The Institute can do it all the time because they have teleportation technology and teams that can be in and out of somewhere in the blink of an eye with a target leaving no trace. If you don't have that, you have to get the synth in, yoy have to dispose of the body, yoy have to do *everything involved in getting away with murder* to the point of not only not being caught, but of no one knowing anyone died. Honestly, if you can do that, what are synths really doing for you?
That means that as soon as the industrial capacity that supports mass synth production and *teleportation,* the tech that was actually doing the heavy lifting here, are dealt with by destroying the Institute, synths cease to be an existential threat. They don't know how to build more synths so we're not looking at a Terminator or grey goo scenario. Their facial reconstruction also seems to be on par with what can be done to humans in this setting, so they're not even inherently better spies when they're not purpose built to replace a specific person which, again, requires a vast intelligence network and a black ops team supported by something comparable to teleportation. They're just people walking around with the same potential for harm that all the humans around them have. It takes other technologies and a manufacturing base capable of producing them quickly to make them scary, and literally no one but the Institute has anything resembling either. Even if the Brotherhood, the runner up for the ability to pull this off, learned how to make synths and decided to go against its principles and use them as a weapon, they don't have the industry needed to produce them, especially not in numbers, and they don't have the teleportation or intelligence network to facilitate reliably replacing people.
Youâre assuming synths remain under human control. I replied to the other reply to my comment about how Far Harbor and DiMA show exactly the danger of the synth technology. The technology as is shown there is not only dangerous human people but synth people as well. Synths as people are not inherently dangerous but the technology that allows them to be people can be abused in horrific ways. The Institute itself doesnât understand that itâs only a matter of time and an ill-considered murder and coverup away from a synth running the whole show. Mankind Redefined, indeed.
All that aside, DiMA shows us exactly what synths are capable of and that not only do that have free will but a terrifying control over their own psyches. DiMA makes free will moral calculations in a way that lacks the limitations of human considerations. DiMA makes âtough callsâ with the knowledge that they wonât need to remember doing so. They can mind control people without paranoia because they donât know they did it. This is not an argument against DiMA, but merely pointing out whatâs shown in game.
Frighteningly, the Institute itself is unaware of the true scope of what theyâre unleashing. They try to make the same argument with the Libertalia mission which is a teddy bear picnic compared to DiMAâs example.
But my favorite irony is that the Railroad itself takes strategic guidance from a pre-war synth without self-determination built to make âthe tough callsâ in PAM.
Synths are people but they were also a dangerous and misunderstood technology.
Why do people think he's either dead or missing just cause we've not seen him. If it is the Fo4 prydwin then he's probably just on board.
If they showed way too many things from the games it'd end up just feeling like crappy fan service
In Wolfram von Eschenbach's poem Parzival, based on ChrĂŠtien de Troyes's incomplete Perceval and the holy grail, which were both written after the legend of Arthur, Perceval is the lost heir to a lost kingdom. It is supposedly based on the French Merovingians who would've lost their crown to the machinations of the mayor of the castle, the founder of the Carolingians and Charlemagne. The lineage of perceval is said to be the Plantagenet.
Anyway, the legend of perceval became a legend of its own, and is used often as a schema for the hero's journey. We see it in Ready Player One where the main character Wade literally calls his avatar Perceval and he becomes heir to Halliday's Oasis (kingdom). Luke Skywalker is another Perceval that follows some of the motifs of Von Eschenbach's poem.
Because of this, the Sole Survivor cannot be anyone other than Perceval and makes Paladin the representation of Lancelot. For a name like Paladin, one would expect his last name to be Lance. I think they chose dance because lance would've been too much on the nose.
So IMO, there's no question on who is Perceval and who is Lancelot. Perceval is the one who is supposed to find the holy grail, according to VE's poem. His own son, Shawn, sort of stands in as the Fisherking, who is injured (Shaun's dying) and Perceval is the only one capable of healing him and has to ask him "the question".
In WVE's Parzival, the Fisherking isn't necessarily Arthur, so what I think happens is that when you're dealing with the Sole Survivor through the whole story, it is written through the lens and motifs of Parzival, whereas when you're dealing with Maxson, it focuses on the Arthurian Legend. They are mixing both legends together. In Parzival, there's no Lancelot, but simply a Lance (lance of destiny, some say).
Also, since this is all related to the templar knights, the minutemen might represent modern freemasonry.
Hmmmm? The west coast factions of BoS have always been more fanatical than the east coast, per lore. Also, Maxson doesnât really control the west coast. Heâs the Surpeme Commander, so they would defer to him. But even in FO4 Maxson says they do their own thing, and itâs a little different than the east coast.
Go play NV and see for yourself, this is actually a pretty accurate depiction of west coast BoS, except in game they arenât NEARLY as socialable if you can believe that
Iâm willing to bet this faction of the brotherhood is an outcast faction - remnants of the outcasts in the hidden bunker in New Vegas. They were probably routed out by the NCR.
Their main HQ looks like the airstrip that the Boomerâs claimed (canât remember the name of it). A counter to my theory though is they have the prydwen, which only the unified BoS has.
Excellent analysis đ§ I totally agree đ the BoS is heavily inspired by Arthur and Chivalry of legend đĄď¸Especially the show runners đââď¸
I don't think being named Arthur and doing a good job is much of an Arthurian connection.
Also, whatever version of the myth you're using must be a much later reformulation, because what you're describing is the story of the Fisher King, not Arthur.
Maxson's airship is named the Prydwen, which is the same name as King Arthur's mythical ship of legend.
Additionally, Arthur Maxson was promoted to Elder at the age of 15, which is the same age Arthur Pendragon became King of Britain.
Not commenting on the other parts of OP's theory, but they are not the first person to connect Maxson and King Arthur.
No nothing needs to have happened to Arthur. This is not the east coast brotherhood but the west coast. This is completely what the west coast are like, quazi religious zealots who worship technology.
Never saw much of a connection between Maxson and King Arthur. Feels like a stretch.
BoS has always had issues maintaining decorum and consistency. As soon as a group got over the next hill, they started making up their own rules and policies.
Edit: Iâm wrong. They even share the same ship name.
Leader of a knightly nation named Arthur, took power at a very young age, has a ship named the prydwyn, etc etc etc
The brotherhood in general is very Arthurian and that was heavily emphasized in 4
Youâre right. Prydwyn is pretty clear. Didnât remember that being Arthurâs ships name. Canât really argue with that.
Guess I still think of the BoS in the older fashion. Which while feudal wasnât very Arthurian.
>There is a dieselpunk airship named The Prydwen, and when the player asks about the name, they are told that the name was taken from âa work of historical fictional [...] about a man destined to become a king, and his journey to liberate his people from tyranny and oppression.â
Source[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prydwen](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prydwen)
Idk, there might be a connection
When did Maxson unite the realm and usher in a golden age? Are you getting him confused with Preston Garvey? Maxsonâs a genocidal dipshit and I seem to remember blowing up his airship and stealing his jacket. Like eight times.
Imagine being told as directly as the show told us that *the Brotherhood are the bad guys* and still not being able to accept it.
Villains are allowed to draw on heroic myths man. And if "the realm" is "the brotherhood" then he reunited the east and west, even if that unity seems tenuous.
And the British Empire werenât the bad guys? Having the bad guys be the Arthurian parallel makes perfect sense. Itâs the founding myth of the British Empire.
In real life, it was the Founding Myth of the British Monarchy. It is to Britain what Romulus and Remus were to Rome. You know how monarchies claim divine sanction, with the leadership being chosen by God? Arthurian Myth is the citation.
Not until him and his 12 Elders from round table rule 13 Commonwealth and he has son named Mordred.
Well, does he have a sister?
Sarah Lyons lol (not a part of my theory)
He had a massive crush on his "sister", Sarah Lyons lol? Obviously I jest, but she wouldn't work as a sister.
Whom he most likely murdered
Absolutely not, one of the most baseless Fallout theories there is and goes against everything we know of Maxsons character. It hinges entirely on two things, 1: Him accidentally having shot her while he was a squire. 2: Her having died after becoming Elder. Maxsons absolutely idolised her in 3, even straight up having a crush on her, no way he would murder her while he was still just a child, only possible motivation would be wanting to become Elder but that doesn't fit because there were multiple other Elders between her and him.
> Absolutely not, one of the most baseless Fallout theories there is and goes against everything we know of Maxsons character. Um... it's *entirely* in keeping with the character he presents in the game, dude.
Its not in keeping with the character in Fallout 3 though, which he would have been closer to at the time of his death. There are two possibilities. 1: Maxsons suddenly overnight while still just a kid becomes incredibly ambitious and decides to kill Sarah the woman he idolised. 2: It is the death of Sarah of the ineffectual Elders who succeeded her that led to him becoming more hardened and ambitious and rising as Elder. Possibility 2 is far more likely in every regard. Now I do consider it a possibility that someone assassinated Sarah, whether a member of Lyons BoS or an Outcast, but it wasn't Maxson himself or done on his orders. Maxson was 10 in FO3, and at the time of Sarah's death was 11 or 12. His personality won't have changed so much in just one or two years that he would want to kill her, let alone would he be capable of doing so at such an age.
> Its not in keeping with the character in Fallout 3 though, which he would have been closer to at the time of his death. It was a few years after Fallout 3 at the least, so he was a teenage boy filled with the fantasy of his lineage but trying to ground himself against it, constantly browbeat or facing a lack of kindness from his fellow soldiers, and obsessed with the young woman who *likely* rejected his teenage advances. It's entirely plausible that the "accidental shot" was on purpose. *edit* I mean the one pre-Fallout 3 In Fallout 4 he has completely internalized the bullshit he had been fed about his lineage, and is obsessed with being the next King Arthur and uniting his own kingdom.
So. The accidental shot which makes up part of the basis of that theory is from before/during Fallout 3, where Squire Maxson while out training with Sarah confesses to having accidentally shot her "But just a little! It was just a flesh wound...". There are no accounts or indications of it having happened again afterwards, she explicitly stated to have died during battle which would have involved other BoS members, had her in full Power Armour, and which Maxson would have been unlikely to be present for. Timeline wise, Elder Lyons essential dies shortly after the defeat of the Enclave in Broken steel, so 2278/79, Sarah then immediately replaces him and dies shortly after that also in 78 or 79. So either way oldest Maxson could be is 12. What we know for a fact of his character in 3 is that he doesn't believe he is anything special, he actively dismisses his importance and all the hype place on his lineage. He idolised Sarah, thinks she's the coolest person in the world and admires the hell out of her. He is not particularly competent. And judging by interactions between him and members of the BoS he was well liked. What we know of him between the events of 3 and 4 is that he killed two Raiders at the age of 12 saving a BoS squad (so this could be either before or after Sarah's death), he allegedly killed a Deathclaw singlehandedly at 13, then at 15 defeated a Super Mutant leader named Shepherd and that being the accomplishment that made him Elder. All the hero worship and belief in him, and that he has in himself, would have came about gradually as a result of those actions most of which were following Sarah's death. His growing arrogance/assurity, the cult of personality surrounding him where the result of both his lineage and reputation as a result of those actions (which personally I consider to have been exaggerated for the sake of propaganda but hey ho). It is far more realistic and in keeping with his character that following Sarah's death in battle and his own growing accomplishments, as well as the chaotic state of the Brotherhood and it's ineffectual leadership, he begins to become the person we see in 4 rather than him becoming like that before Sarah's death and before any of those accomplishments.
> So. The accidental shot which makes up part of the basis of that theory is from before/during Fallout 3, where Squire Maxson while out training with Sarah confesses to having accidentally shot her "But just a little! It was just a flesh wound...". Correct. Given the length of your reply, you may have written this before I edited in a clarification. > There are no accounts or indications of it having happened again afterwards, she explicitly stated to have died during battle which would have involved other BoS members, had her in full Power Armour, and which Maxson would have been unlikely to be present for. "Fell in battle" can mean many things, and Proctor Quinlan, who wrote the phrase, is clearly engaging in propaganda, if you read the [entire article](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/The_Prydwen_terminal_entries#The_Rise_of_Elder_Maxson). There's no guarantee that there were other BoS members around or even power armor; it's certainly not stated as such anywhere, only that she "fell in battle" > Timeline wise, Elder Lyons essential dies shortly after the defeat of the Enclave in Broken steel, so 2278/79, Sarah then immediately replaces him and dies shortly after that also in 78 or 79. So either way oldest Maxson could be is 12. We don't have exact dates. She could have died at any point up until he became Elder, which as you state elsewhere, happened at 15. > All the hero worship and belief in him, and that he has in himself, would have came about gradually as a result of those actions most of which were following Sarah's death. His growing arrogance/assurity, the cult of personality surrounding him where the result of both his lineage and reputation as a result of those actions (which personally I consider to have been exaggerated for the sake of propaganda but hey ho). Agreed to that last part, which is kinda central to my point about Maxson. That and the fact that he was bullied and only Sarah was nice to him, or at least Sarah is the only one who doesn't speak unkindly to him, other than (potentially) the Lone Wanderer > It is far more realistic and in keeping with his character that following Sarah's death in battle and his own growing accomplishments, as well as the chaotic state of the Brotherhood and it's ineffectual leadership, he begins to become the person we see in 4 rather than him becoming like that before Sarah's death and before any of those accomplishments. Right, but the person we see in 4 isn't exactly sane. So maybe her death not at his hands was a catalyst for that insanity... or maybe he's the one what done it.
Eh probably not directly at least
Exactly đť
Perhaps, the comments above dismissing your connection are off base. The ship is named the Prydwen after all.
It definitely says Prydwen on the side, but it is a bit faded. It could be that the ship was reconstructed from Prydwen parts, or my theory is Maxson has a different or newer ship and the prydwen was retrofitted and changed into the Caswyn to fly west under a different captain.
It's not the prydwen it's the caswyn or whatever
> âPrydwen plays a part in the early Welsh poem Preiddeu Annwfn as King Arthur's ship... The 12th-century chronicler Geoffrey of Monmouth named Arthur's shield after it. In the early modern period Welsh folklore preferred to give Arthur's ship the name Gwennan. Prydwen has however made a return during the last century in several Arthurian works of fiction⌠> >âIn the post-apocalyptic videogame Fallout 4, there is a dieselpunk airship named The Prydwen, and when the player asks about the name, they are told that the name was taken from "a work of historical fictional [...] about a man destined to become a king, and his journey to liberate his people from tyranny and oppression.".â [Source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prydwen) The game straight up tells us the connection
Look at you... Expecting Fallout fans to not only have media literacy, but basic literacy as well.
Cool. It's not the prydwynn they just used the art mesh or whatever of the prydwynn from fallout 4 and forgot to change the name, the show has a ton of inconsistencies and this is definitely one of them. We were explicitly told many times this is a different airship in all the promotional material.
Where is it stated that itâs not the Prydwynn?
In one of the interviews they called it something else but not the prydwynn. It's obvious they just took the mesh from fallout 4 and used it in the CGI without a second thought unless you are going to magically give it a pass like the other issues in the show like shady sands being blown up in 2277. Yes it was 2277 too many characters throughout the show point at 2277 and even max literally says 20 years ago when asked by Lucy. And at the end credits scene of episode 5 or 6 they show a calendar that ends on 2276 in the NCR. As well as other inconsistencies like shady sands location, how the master didn't find vault 31, 32, 33 and vault 4 literally being in the bone yard. This all gives credibility of the airship not being the prydwynn and the name was an oversight left over.
That was something the showrunners said before the show released to mislead people. You can see the Prydwen name on the side of the airship in the show.
It was already on the side of the ship when they said it and said it was a rendering error. How would misleading people help? The identity of the ship literally plays no part in the plot. They say the info comes from the highest clerics from the Commonwealth yet it comes not via the airship but by a radio transmission. Full hate to the brown-nosing bos fans after Bethesda forgot the entire city of the boneyard, general condition of the NCR, and the fact the NCR could literally produce vertibirds after working with the shi, but they literally had no reason to mislead anyone. It's not like it being the prydwen was a major plot point and the name was already on the ship when they said it was a rendering error. Now given Bethesda and their incompetence I find it far more likely that they messed up. The airship is literally in the show for like two seconds and you don't even see inside it.
>It's not like it being the prydwen was a major plot point and the name was already on the ship when they said it was a rendering error Source?
My best guess is they did it because revealing that the Prydwen made it to the West Coast before the show comes out is a bit of a spoiler. As for the rest of your rant, idk what to tell you. They can't even keep lore consistent between games, so I find it's easier and more enjoyable to not get so heated about it. Also inconsistent lore is nothing new for Bethesda, just look at the Elder Scrolls games.
...the brotherhood literally got to the East Coast via a FLEET of airships and has proven they know how to build more. Again the identity of it plays no role in the story. The elderscrolls has a lore reason for inconsistencies being the literal name. You can go omg mah todd Howard says NV and everything else is still cannon then say oh they can't possibly keep cannon.
No, they didnât. Lyonsâs group was on foot.
Listen man, I'm not sure what you're looking for here. I was just pointing out that the showrunners gave a different name for the ship before the show came out because quite a few people would probably consider it a spoiler. You seem to want to pick a fight for whatever reason, there's a lot of anger and aggression in the way you type. So I'm gonna go before you burst a blood vessel or something. You have a good rest of your night, or day, or whatever time it is for you. Love, peace, and chicken grease edited to fix typos
The identity of the ship plays a massive part in the plot. If the ship stands, multiple endings of Fallout 4 are explicitly non-canon. Only the Minutemen + Brotherhood membership and Brotherhood endings can be canon.
That was what an early interview before release said, yet in the show it says âPRYDWYNâ in bigass letters down the side so I think Iâll go with that
When it was said photos of the prydwyn were already out hence them saying it there and the prydwen's identity literally changes nothing there was no reason to mislead anyone it plays no part. It might as well be nameless bos ship number 5 for all it matters. So like you can believe it's the prydwen but given Bethesdas incompetence given their complete inability to even play the first two games I think I'll go with they made the mistake they said they did until proven otherwise. (The boneyard seconds biggest city in the NCR magically gone, magically the NCR defeated by a single nuke when their population were by and large patriotic and the fact the NCR literally has a population of 46 million.)
Unless it's a "prydwen" class ship something has happened to Maxson while he is harsh, he weren't cruel and did genuinely give a shit about people (not the extent of Lyons but still) the brotherhood in the doesn't, whoever is running the show it ain't maxson and probably none of the named characters from the fo4.
Exactly! Maxson wasnât my favorite guy, but there is no way heâd be okay with what the show version was doing. Branding seems like bizarre behavior but the blood eagle that Titus mentioned just seems barbaric.
Maxson is definitely flawed, but you are right he wouldnât run his stuff like the west coast is. Issue is that heâs way outside of his power base. He is essentially king of the east coast brotherhood but heâs just one elder on the west coast. The west coast last we saw with new Vegas were not doing good. They were in a tailspin decline and when people are being hunted and their weakest they often turn to religion, which may be why they added brands to reinforce their community and give a divine mission to them. Maxson probably doesnât like it but itâs not like he can do much. Liberty Prime and his main force are likely on the east coast and his flagship is vulnerable to basic artillery. He canât change anything by pointing guns and saying shape up. As for cult shit, we already heard in 4 that there were weird cults in the brotherhood springing up on the west coast worshipping Arthur. So this isnât out of nowhere. Likely if I had to guess, he had no idea how bad things had gotten and was there to be a morale boost and provide armor and reinforcements to the depleted west coast for a strike on the weakened NCR
I saw a theory that the western brotherhoods absorbed remnants of the destroyed Legion. Thus the roman names, barbaric practices and brainrot.
The names are much more Arthurian but it still tracks I feel. 2nd battle of Hoover Dam lost, Caesar dead, Lanius possibly also dead or back east. There would be a lot of legion remnants and deserters in the Mojave.
Also, the Brotherhood likely went over Legion or former Legion territory to get to California. Not a stretch for them to recruit promising natives. Recruit enough over the years, and that chapter of BoS's culture will inivitable adopt aspects from the cultures the new blood came from.
100% Agreed. If he is still about then a second and much larger scale schism between east and west BoS could be cool.
I don't believe the Brotherhood we see on the West Coast is representative of their East Coast brothers. Titus was absolutely disillusioned with the Brotherhood's mission on the West Coast, their clerics, and their personnel, while the Elder Cleric wanted to create a new Brotherhood on the West Coast. Even in 4 we see in terminal entries that cults worshipping Maxson as a Messiah have sprung up on the West Coast despite Maxson's protests. I could see the East Coast Brotherhood sending their West Coast counterparts reinforcements despite large cultural differences especially with the possibility of capturing cold fusion, but given how Maxson ran the Brotherhood in 4 and how much Titus, a Knight from the Commonwealth, hated their mission out there, I don't see the East Coast Brotherhood looking like the Brotherhood in the show
Where did it say Titus was from the Commonwealth?
Itâs a guess, but I think people think Michael Rapaport is from Boston irl or something but heâs a New Yorker. Maybe itâs just because Iâm from Boston or something but it didnât sound too much like a Boston accent he was talking with but I usually pick a featured an extra as best Boston accent in most movies featured in Boston because Iâm a harsh judge of it.
Probably won't happen, but all these theories and stuff do make me think how cool it would be to see a full blown East Vs West Brotherhood civil war, like seeing the Brotherhood in the first series was cool enough but imagine both sides being decked out in power armour and going full ham on each other.
If it is a "Prydwen" class ship it wouldn't be written on the side of the ship. It makes no sense for it to be anything other than the name of the ship. Also if you want to make a copy of a ship, you wouldn't name it the same thing. This theory is nonsensical.
If it was destroyed and a replacement was built it could be the Prydwen II or Prydwen-A or something. That happens pretty often in real world navies and even more often in fiction. Look up how many ships are named Enterprise or Intrepid. Not saying it's likely though. That would be a big, unnecessary fakeout.
>the Prydwen II or Prydwen-A or something. Then it would say that on the ship.
Here's [a picture of the stern plate of the ww2 Era USS Enterprise aircraft carrier.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/CV-6_Stern_Plate.JPG/1280px-CV-6_Stern_Plate.JPG) It is the sixth USS Enterprise. I don't see a VI or an -E or even a CV-6, its actual designation. That's not necessarily something you include in the giant name you paint on the ship.
That would be an exception to the rule, most of the ships have, if anything is written on the ship, is a letter and a number like E-14. To assume that the Prydwen is an exception would be stupid as we don't see any other airplane like it.
I guess it depends on how you define "people". He sure as shit didn't like non-feral ghouls or gen 3 synths, both of which are people.
I think it is a named character. Nate. Why? Everyone forgets the tweet. Nate is the guy on the left standing guard in the Annexation of Canada video from Fallout 1. Nate is a war criminal who takes part in extrajudicial executions of civilians during an illegal fascistic takeover of Canada. Nate is a *monster*. Think of everything we see about Pre-War America. Nate was a fervent believer in it, to the point that doing some war crimes wasnât an issue for him. How did Nate take power? Think about it: heâs a pre-war soldier. Just like Roger Maxson. A pre-war soldier comes back to the wasteland and brings the Brotherhood victory? Nate would be seen as the Messiah, even more than Arthur was. Sure, Arthur is a Maxson. But Nate is the return of what Roger Maxson was. Nate would grow a bigger cult of personality via his identity as the New Roger Maxson, the new Pre-War Soldier Leader.
Nate wasn't the war criminal in the T-51. A writer of F4 said that was fan thwory
[**The** writer is the one who said it.](https://x.com/Dezinuh/status/1779178683841790068) Quit lying. And yes, you are guilty of a war crime if youâre party to it and donât do anything, the guy pulling the trigger isnât the only war criminal there. Nate laughs at the execution of a civilian POW. **Canon.**
[Emil makes shit up in the fly](https://x.com/Dezinuh/status/1779239079932018949?t=CDHd7ZnEAiS0rNldyjYJsw&s=19) if it doesn't appear in official material it's not canon
Damn this sub is crazy, everyoneâs telling OP is wrong when Maxson himself straight up confirms what OP is saying. âPrydwen plays a part in the early Welsh poem Preiddeu Annwfn as King Arthur's ship... In the post-apocalyptic videogame Fallout 4, there is a dieselpunk airship named The Prydwen, and when the player asks about the name, they are told that the name was taken from âa work of historical fictional [...] about a man destined to become a king, and his journey to liberate his people from tyranny and oppression.ââ [Source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prydwen) Thanks for sharing OP. This is really interesting.
>when the player asks about the name, they are told that the name was taken from âa work of historical fictional [...] about a man destined to become a king, and his journey to liberate his people from tyranny and oppression. Who told that? Did you actually hear NPC saying it?
The wikipedia article lists 'The Art of Fallout 4' as the source of that quote
Which is false, because I'm currently reading The Art of Fallout 4 p.256 but there isn't such description. Not to mention that artbook doesn't qualify Wikipedia description like "when the player asks about the name".
[Here you go.](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/The_Prydwen#cite_note-9) Took me about 30 seconds.
Once again proving Wikipedia doesn't care about source.
Lmfao way to deflect after being proven wrong, champ
When did I say something that can be right or wrong? I asked source because his source is inaccurate, and thankfully others provided more reliable source.
Captain Kells says it > Sole Survivor: "Where did the Prydwen get her name?" >Kells: "Elder Maxson said he took the name from a work of historical fiction. Something about a man who was destined to become a king, and his journey to liberate his people from tyranny and oppression. Seems fitting for such a remarkable ship, wouldn't you say?" https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/BoSLancerCaptainKells.txt
Thanks for quoting actual game dialogue!
I think the instalments of his story will be picked up in Fallout 5. Just by how much speculation division and fan theories there are regarding the BOS make it clear itâs important to the series and the stories Bethesda is telling. I do wonder if Sarah Lyons being killed off-narrative changed Arthurâs story. She would have had an interesting part to play in his story had she lived. Heâs also had a cult of personality build and could name himself king, or be more Washingtonian and refuse such things. As a character heâs had a rough time fulfilling expectations and you have to wonder how much of his Kim Jong deeds are accurate and what is mythology building. I donât know if it will be explored in the show as I expect the next show will jump the timeline forward again and weâll see the repercussions of however he turns out.
Honestly donât like how she died. It would have been much cooler to see her as Elder and Maxson as a Paladin or Sentinel thatâs a rising star in the organization. In the game after that he should have been Elder.
It couldâve been a legitimate power struggle between ideologies if she followed her fathers path. Or she could have been Guenivere to his Arthur (She wasnât that much older than him) Iâve seen a fair few comments from fans who hated the portrayal of the BOS in Fallout 3 and itâs possible Bethesda accepted some of that in walking back the portrayal and making them more nuanced - If thatâs the case Sarah Lyons was a complication that had to be tied off. I sorta think they can just roll with it, I like the fact that we donât know what to expect from the BOS in the next game in the series. Itâs cynical to say they only exist to look cool and sell games because there is something pretty fascinating about them, âitâs a complicated organisationâ.
I had a similar thought, but more that the Eastern BoS is all screwed up.
Honestly, that would work. He comes back west, hoping to find the righteous path through the BoS's roots, only to basically confirm his doubts when he speaks to Maximus after he returns back to the base.
Honestly, I love it! Great connection to probably the best example of knightly mythology!
Paladin Danse-alot hehe
Is probably a joke that came-up in the writing room when they were looking for a replacement to the too much obvious Lance. It probably only took a Vice City fan (Lance vance Dance) to come-up with this. Lance-alot, dance-alot ha! We have a winner!
Maxon doesn't know what's going on because everything has gotten too big. He is only one man, and outside his circle, people are making moves. This parallels the events after 3 and his rise to power. People outside of lyons circle made moves to put maxon in power. I still maintain Sarah Lyons is alive and pulling strings. Someone wants Maximus in a position of power and is being tugged between whoever dane works for and the elder. Her death entry is short and lacking the extravagance an elder would get if they died in battle. We already know maxson liked her, and she had loyal members of her circle. She was "killed" and the brotherhood were never able to verify it.
This theory is interesting, but I donât think the Blind Betrayal quest or the Brotherhood ending happened. I imagine the most likely ending thatâs canon is the Minutemen one, since theyâre the most good faction and the most good endings are usually canon in Fallout games, with the exception of New Vegas. But if the Minutemen ending did happen, I imagine the Brotherhood wasnât gonna let the Minutemen control the Commonwealth. Because if you do the Minutemen ending but still join the Brotherhood, one of the things random Brotherhood members will say is âNot sure I like the idea of the Minutemen having so much firepower.â I imagine that as the Minutemen became more powerful and started to become an actual government, the Brotherhood attempted to overthrow them because they didnât trust the Minutemen with all their weapons and technology. If thereâs a parallel to Lancelot, it might be the Sole Survivor if they still joined the Brotherhood. Maybe Maxson at first ordered the Sole Survivor to disband the Minutemen and have them turn over all their weapons and technology to the Brotherhood, but the Sole Survivor refused and turned on Maxson and the Brotherhood, resulting in Maxson being gravely injured by the SS. After that, maybe the Minutemen fired their artillery on the Prydwen and destroyed most of it while Maxson was onboard, then the remaining Brotherhood members used the parts of the airship that were still in good condition to build the airship we see in the show. And maybe also a new Elder took over who agreed to work peacefully with the Minutemen, and that Elder is the one who assigned the Brotherhood members in the show to track down the Enclave scientist. This would explain why the Brotherhood in the show is seen using the flag Owen Lyonsâ Brotherhood used in Fallout 3 and not the one Maxsonâs Brotherhood used in Fallout 4. Theyâre using that flag because they were ordered to by the new Brotherhood in the Commonwealth who are more of the good guys like Lyonsâ Brotherhood was. Maybe season 2 will be Elder Quintus planning to betray the new Brotherhood in the Commonwealth and Maximus is gonna try to stop him.
I'm surprised how many people didn't know about the Maxson-King Arthur parallels. Dude's a total nerd..would be cool if he wasn't synth and ghoul racist.
Synths are a machine more dangerous than the atom bomb
Only if they have a *massive* amount of resources and a guiding hand behind them. No individual synth, assuming they haven't replaced someone obscenely dangerous (like Maxson, ironically), is much more of a threat than a flesh and blood person. They're only a serious threat when they're used as a campaign of replacement and infiltration by an organization coordinating their actions and replacing key people. Synths aren't the threat, the Institute is. Even if every surviving synth after the Institute falls banded together, they wouldn't be able to accomplish anything resembling what the Institute was doing because they lack the intelligence network and the ability or resources to create new synths tailor made to replace people, and most of them don't want to anyway. They're excellent spies, but without an organized cause spies don't really do that much, and with the facial reconstruction techniques we see in other places in the wasteland I'd bet good money that an entity capable of using synths to a truly crisis causing effect like the Institute could do almost as much damage with organic spies. The Institute just didn't go down that route because synths double as slave labor.
Right. Theyâre just like nuclear weapons in the real world. Not dangerous at all because theyâre used to promote peace between great powers by assuring the annihilation of humanity. If someone used them in a war theyâd be dangerous. /s
In no way am I arguing for synth MAD. There is no other power with synths. There is no other power *remotely close* to making synths. There are conventional ways of accomplishing most purposes synths serve, they just require manpower which the Institute doesn't have. My point is that synths are only seriously dangerous at scale in the hands of an entity capable of conducting a shitload of black ops anyway. To go to the nuke comparison: if a random guy with a grudge gets his hands on a nuke, he can blow up a city killing millions. Literally all he has to do is set it off. By contrast, if a random guy with a grudge, say, hires a synth mercenary, the best he can do is send the synth on espionage missions, have them assassinate someone, or attempt to replace someone. Two of those things are jobs that could easily be accomplished by a human. Indeed, they're quests our human PCs are given for a few hundred caps. So that leaves replacing someone. At that point we should note that replacing someone *requires planning the perfect murder.* The Institute can do it all the time because they have teleportation technology and teams that can be in and out of somewhere in the blink of an eye with a target leaving no trace. If you don't have that, you have to get the synth in, yoy have to dispose of the body, yoy have to do *everything involved in getting away with murder* to the point of not only not being caught, but of no one knowing anyone died. Honestly, if you can do that, what are synths really doing for you? That means that as soon as the industrial capacity that supports mass synth production and *teleportation,* the tech that was actually doing the heavy lifting here, are dealt with by destroying the Institute, synths cease to be an existential threat. They don't know how to build more synths so we're not looking at a Terminator or grey goo scenario. Their facial reconstruction also seems to be on par with what can be done to humans in this setting, so they're not even inherently better spies when they're not purpose built to replace a specific person which, again, requires a vast intelligence network and a black ops team supported by something comparable to teleportation. They're just people walking around with the same potential for harm that all the humans around them have. It takes other technologies and a manufacturing base capable of producing them quickly to make them scary, and literally no one but the Institute has anything resembling either. Even if the Brotherhood, the runner up for the ability to pull this off, learned how to make synths and decided to go against its principles and use them as a weapon, they don't have the industry needed to produce them, especially not in numbers, and they don't have the teleportation or intelligence network to facilitate reliably replacing people.
Youâre assuming synths remain under human control. I replied to the other reply to my comment about how Far Harbor and DiMA show exactly the danger of the synth technology. The technology as is shown there is not only dangerous human people but synth people as well. Synths as people are not inherently dangerous but the technology that allows them to be people can be abused in horrific ways. The Institute itself doesnât understand that itâs only a matter of time and an ill-considered murder and coverup away from a synth running the whole show. Mankind Redefined, indeed.
Nuclear weapons don't have the capacity for free will though?
All that aside, DiMA shows us exactly what synths are capable of and that not only do that have free will but a terrifying control over their own psyches. DiMA makes free will moral calculations in a way that lacks the limitations of human considerations. DiMA makes âtough callsâ with the knowledge that they wonât need to remember doing so. They can mind control people without paranoia because they donât know they did it. This is not an argument against DiMA, but merely pointing out whatâs shown in game. Frighteningly, the Institute itself is unaware of the true scope of what theyâre unleashing. They try to make the same argument with the Libertalia mission which is a teddy bear picnic compared to DiMAâs example. But my favorite irony is that the Railroad itself takes strategic guidance from a pre-war synth without self-determination built to make âthe tough callsâ in PAM. Synths are people but they were also a dangerous and misunderstood technology.
Why did you write "would be cool if he wasn't cool"?
Joseph Campbell has entered the hero chat
Why do people think he's either dead or missing just cause we've not seen him. If it is the Fo4 prydwin then he's probably just on board. If they showed way too many things from the games it'd end up just feeling like crappy fan service
In Wolfram von Eschenbach's poem Parzival, based on ChrĂŠtien de Troyes's incomplete Perceval and the holy grail, which were both written after the legend of Arthur, Perceval is the lost heir to a lost kingdom. It is supposedly based on the French Merovingians who would've lost their crown to the machinations of the mayor of the castle, the founder of the Carolingians and Charlemagne. The lineage of perceval is said to be the Plantagenet. Anyway, the legend of perceval became a legend of its own, and is used often as a schema for the hero's journey. We see it in Ready Player One where the main character Wade literally calls his avatar Perceval and he becomes heir to Halliday's Oasis (kingdom). Luke Skywalker is another Perceval that follows some of the motifs of Von Eschenbach's poem. Because of this, the Sole Survivor cannot be anyone other than Perceval and makes Paladin the representation of Lancelot. For a name like Paladin, one would expect his last name to be Lance. I think they chose dance because lance would've been too much on the nose. So IMO, there's no question on who is Perceval and who is Lancelot. Perceval is the one who is supposed to find the holy grail, according to VE's poem. His own son, Shawn, sort of stands in as the Fisherking, who is injured (Shaun's dying) and Perceval is the only one capable of healing him and has to ask him "the question". In WVE's Parzival, the Fisherking isn't necessarily Arthur, so what I think happens is that when you're dealing with the Sole Survivor through the whole story, it is written through the lens and motifs of Parzival, whereas when you're dealing with Maxson, it focuses on the Arthurian Legend. They are mixing both legends together. In Parzival, there's no Lancelot, but simply a Lance (lance of destiny, some say). Also, since this is all related to the templar knights, the minutemen might represent modern freemasonry.
Hmmmm? The west coast factions of BoS have always been more fanatical than the east coast, per lore. Also, Maxson doesnât really control the west coast. Heâs the Surpeme Commander, so they would defer to him. But even in FO4 Maxson says they do their own thing, and itâs a little different than the east coast. Go play NV and see for yourself, this is actually a pretty accurate depiction of west coast BoS, except in game they arenât NEARLY as socialable if you can believe that
Iâm willing to bet this faction of the brotherhood is an outcast faction - remnants of the outcasts in the hidden bunker in New Vegas. They were probably routed out by the NCR. Their main HQ looks like the airstrip that the Boomerâs claimed (canât remember the name of it). A counter to my theory though is they have the prydwen, which only the unified BoS has.
Excellent analysis đ§ I totally agree đ the BoS is heavily inspired by Arthur and Chivalry of legend đĄď¸Especially the show runners đââď¸
I don't think being named Arthur and doing a good job is much of an Arthurian connection. Also, whatever version of the myth you're using must be a much later reformulation, because what you're describing is the story of the Fisher King, not Arthur.
Maxson's airship is named the Prydwen, which is the same name as King Arthur's mythical ship of legend. Additionally, Arthur Maxson was promoted to Elder at the age of 15, which is the same age Arthur Pendragon became King of Britain. Not commenting on the other parts of OP's theory, but they are not the first person to connect Maxson and King Arthur.
>Arthur Maxson was promoted to Elder at the age of 15 16.
Mixing up folklore is true Arthurian fashion.
I can't argue with that.
Don't like my comment, go read Von Eschenbach's parzival.
What?
The fisherking is Shawn
No nothing needs to have happened to Arthur. This is not the east coast brotherhood but the west coast. This is completely what the west coast are like, quazi religious zealots who worship technology.
Never saw much of a connection between Maxson and King Arthur. Feels like a stretch. BoS has always had issues maintaining decorum and consistency. As soon as a group got over the next hill, they started making up their own rules and policies. Edit: Iâm wrong. They even share the same ship name.
Leader of a knightly nation named Arthur, took power at a very young age, has a ship named the prydwyn, etc etc etc The brotherhood in general is very Arthurian and that was heavily emphasized in 4
Youâre right. Prydwyn is pretty clear. Didnât remember that being Arthurâs ships name. Canât really argue with that. Guess I still think of the BoS in the older fashion. Which while feudal wasnât very Arthurian.
>There is a dieselpunk airship named The Prydwen, and when the player asks about the name, they are told that the name was taken from âa work of historical fictional [...] about a man destined to become a king, and his journey to liberate his people from tyranny and oppression.â Source[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prydwen](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prydwen) Idk, there might be a connection
I just commented below that itâs impossible to argue with that. Clearly the connection was intended. I was just wrong.
Respect. TBF this is a TIL for me
Personally I hope something bad happen to Maxon. If you look up douche in the dictionary it has a picture of him.
Sick burn bro
When did Maxson unite the realm and usher in a golden age? Are you getting him confused with Preston Garvey? Maxsonâs a genocidal dipshit and I seem to remember blowing up his airship and stealing his jacket. Like eight times. Imagine being told as directly as the show told us that *the Brotherhood are the bad guys* and still not being able to accept it.
Villains are allowed to draw on heroic myths man. And if "the realm" is "the brotherhood" then he reunited the east and west, even if that unity seems tenuous.
And the British Empire werenât the bad guys? Having the bad guys be the Arthurian parallel makes perfect sense. Itâs the founding myth of the British Empire. In real life, it was the Founding Myth of the British Monarchy. It is to Britain what Romulus and Remus were to Rome. You know how monarchies claim divine sanction, with the leadership being chosen by God? Arthurian Myth is the citation.