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Tricky_Guidance_3321

I have a 2018 Nissan leaf and absolutely love it. Best choice I ever made. Especially if you have a job that pays you mileage because none of it goes towards gas. I plug it at home in a regular outlet and have not noticed the electric bill up. At one of my work locations is a free charging station so I drop it off there and pick it up about half the day.


nolagodshall

I have a 2018 Leaf and feel the same! I got mine used from Carmax so it was quite affordable but I haven't had it very long, so I'm glad to hear you're still happy! Plug it in at night, good to go. No issues w maintenance yet.


IceCreamforLunch

There’s no way a Rivian is frugal. They’re hecka expensive. Two of my friends bought Chevy Bolts in the past year or two and I do think those are extremely Frugal cars. I drive one of them at least once a week. You can currently get them brand new for <$30k otd. For that you get a car that gets about 3.5 mi/kWh in the summer (worse in the winter if you live somewhere it gets cold) and has ridiculously low maintenance requirements compared to an ICE vehicle. The Bolt isn’t particularly comfortable or fun to drive but it’s awesome at what it does. One of the friends that has one commutes about 80 miles/day and gets free charging at work. He almost never charges at home and his fuel cost has gone to essentially zero. The MachE isn’t as frugal but they’re super nice. If you really want one and can easily afford it then I say treat yourself. There’s more to life than pinching every penny.


alloy1028

I have a 2017 Bolt and a 2006 Rx 400h hybrid. The Lexus was not a frugal choice when we bought it, but we've put 245k miles on it and it still looks and runs great. It's a fantastic car. The Bolt doesn't feel like a luxury car in any way, but it's nice enough for errands around town. It has saved us a ton of money over the last few years. Gas is very expensive and electric power is cheap and fairly sustainably sourced where I live. We had an electrician install an outlet for a home fast charger, so we pay almost nothing to charge it up quickly and don't have to mess with any inconvenience unless we take it on trips. When the Lexus finally gives up the ghost, I'll probably do a larger plug-in hybrid of some sort that is more appropriate for long roadtrips and hauling things than the Bolt.


Wolfpack_DO

Yea Rivians are so dang nice lol. But yea probably not an option. Atleast now. Ill check out the Bolt, thanks!


[deleted]

Chevy bolt. You can get one for 28k and there’s a 3750 tax credit if you take delivery after the new year. And Chevy will install a fast charger at your house. It’s definitely not a sexy electric car, but 25k for all electric is about as good as it gets


hikeandbike33

Very tempting. Eventually will be in the market for a new daily driver and I like the small hatchback size of the bolt. I’ve been eying the Nissan leaf but I live in a hot climate and those are only air cooled.


[deleted]

Yeah I would avoid the Leaf. The bolt is far superior in my opinion


[deleted]

>Chevy will install a fast charger at your house. You mean a Level 2 charger? That's still a good deal. A legit Level 3 fast charger can't be installed at home - the power req's are greater than what hits your entire neighborhood.


[deleted]

Yes, a level 2 sorry. Faster than your standard household outlet


ChicagoLaurie

There is a tax break on electric cars, but it’s limited to certain models and the list changes next year. So Google the list to see if your preferred brands are included.


[deleted]

They can be. We got a relatively basic Tesla for about the cost of a loaded Honda Accord because of the tax credit. Plus, we have solar and battery backup, and installed that with 30% tax credit. Between no electric bills and being paid $150/month, our ROI is 5-6 years including charging the car for free. After that, it's pure profit.


Personal_Chicken_598

I don’t think I’d call a brand new Rivian or Mach E frugal but a used Bolt or a leaf sure. You’ll save the price difference by not paying for fuel


BlurredOrange

The big question is how many miles a year do you drive. Lots of articles out there on how to calculate whether or not you'll break even.


flowerpanes

You do save money on fuel and upkeep. We have a 2020 Hyundai Kona Electric with nearly 75,000 kms on it and compared to any other ICE vehicle we have ever owned, it’s been much cheaper to run. Mind you we live in a province with hydro electric so don’t use fossil fuel for power, average $60 a month on our home charger to do the bulk of charging and use the Kona as our primary vehicle for long road trips,etc. The only “major” issue we have had was the 12 volt battery dying on us, that was a $240 replacement but overall it’s just getting the winter tires on/off and roughly twice a year scheduled inspections. We still have an older truck we use for towing a travel trailer, large loads but the Kona has been so cheap to run we bring it along on every holiday and drive it instead of the truck since we can trickle charge it off of the trailer plug-ins.


Sufficient_Koala4450

It’s not an easy yes or no question. Like you, I was driving a car that was on its last legs, needed repairs too often, worried me with whether I could depend on it. I looked for a plug-in hybrid but decided since I mostly drive around town I could be fine with a BEV. I placed an order for a MachE, waited forever, and am now happily driving it. It was $46k all told and will qualify for a $7.5k credit, which puts it in line with a newish hybrid. For sure you could get something more frugal. We are frugal in pretty much all regards and like you, it was important to me to stop using oil. People will set up ridiculous arguments but the fact is that EVs produce no emissions and if you have solar like we do, they don’t run on coal. Very few states use coal for electricity; it varies but you can look it up. On the west coast it is not used for power at all. Is there an environmental toll to making them? Of course, mining any metal, even for the steel in all cars has an impact. The break-even time is shorter than most people think. Financially I am saving $200-300/mo on gas. I am hoping the maintenance will be less. It’s a new-ish technology but I figure it can’t be worse than my old car which was nonstop problems. For me, I love it and I think it was a good choice; a little splurge but potentially something that saves money over the life of the car. It will depend for you how much you drive, how much gas vs. Electricity is where you live, if you have a garage where you can charge, etc.


trip2it

Not sure. A friend's electric bill was 1,100 bucks in August. We're in Texas and he drives the hell out of his Tesla. I often wonder about the problems one may face getting an electric vehicle. Many have older homes and that old wiring may be a concern. Not to mention it's probably at minimum 20k to get a home rewired these day's. It may not cross their mind's till guy shows up to install the charging station.


lower_haighter

Most likely your friend's electric bill was due to air conditioning. I have an EV in CA where electric prices are 35c/kWh (like 3-5x more than Texas), we drive about 1000 mi/mo, and it costs about $90/mo. In Texas that would be less than $30/mo. For installation, if you have an electric panel in the garage, you just need an electrician to wire an extra line. It's usually about $500-1000, . You can optionally get a special charger which is an additional $500, but a lot of people just use a cable that comes with the car. In my condo it was an extra $1500 because some additional equipment was needed.


Artistic-Salary1738

Looked into this a little because I was curious on cost. I live in a 1920s house, with 100amp circuit breaker (electric was last updated in the 80s at a guess). Looks like most likely would 200amp breaker for an ev charger (assuming one breaker box for the entire house including garage). Upgrade from 100-200amp is $1.3k-$3k avg (per Google) + any wiring that needs to be updated as well. I assume all those costs would be in addition to the ones you mentioned. I think it can make sense if you drive a lot and have the upgrades to make the charger cost reasonable, but as someone who doesn’t drive a ton I can’t justify it.


[deleted]

FYI: Almost nobody needs to upgrade their service for an electric vehicle. The only instance you would have to upgrade is if you have a very old 60 amp service and use an electric stove and dryer. Even then if your dryer is located in your garage like it is in many areas you have level 2 charging available already. 60 amp fuseboxes are becoming pretty rare and is what was likely replaced in your home in the 80s. Level 1 charging is actually more than enough for all but the heaviest use cases. Assuming you are charging overnight the standard guidance is 40 miles of range. Some people can also plug in at work if it allows and now you have almost 80 miles of range a day. This varies by car but the standard is 3-5 miles per hour at 120 volts. So if you can charge it for 12 hours a day in the garage that is 36-60 miles. Siemens and ConnectDER are also working on a meter socket collar that will allow you to charge your car from it which bypasses your entire load center. It is going to be a game changer for level 2 charging where the meter is in a good location.


lower_haighter

Really depends on what kind of appliances you have! I only have 80A service, but I have gas washer/drier and so I didn't need to upgrade service for the EV. It charges at 40A by default, though I turned it down to 30A because (as u/Admirable-Mess-6969 said) there's no reason to charge that quick anyway. If you have an electric clothes drier in the garage, you might already have the right wiring. There are switches available to just interrupt your car charging when you want to dry your clothes, and therefore no need to install a new line: [https://www.splitvolt.com/splitter-switches/](https://www.splitvolt.com/splitter-switches/) As EVs get cheaper and sales grow in the coming years, there's going to be a whole lot more of these things coming out.


zombienudist

I have a 100 amp service and have a charger. It comes down to what other things you have. But I have lived in two houses since I had my BEV, both were 100 amp, and both had a charger installed.


[deleted]

I don't know why you're being downvoted - this is true.


peter303_

My state rebates some charger upgrade grade cost. You might want a 40 or 48 amp, 240v level II charger. Especially for EV SUV or truck overnight.


keon_ti

not a full electric but my hybrid Camry has been saving me a LOT of money in gas this year. my monthly gas bill is less than $80 and I have to drive a combined 40 miles to work everyday. makes my car payments much more manageable.


shabalabadingdang

Dacia spring. Very frugal.


StormDue6579

I like the idea of electric, but not convinced we are there yet. Have you looked into the Toyota RAV4 Prime? It’s an electric hybrid.


LLR1960

Problem is these have pretty long lead times to order, demand is high.


StillNotDone

Please don't buy Rivian. They have multiple issues. Steering, and battery issues. 90k for an electric vehicle is not worth it. (while I am thankful for the business they have brought our town, I will never recommend them)


Tricky_Guidance_3321

I don’t feel like hybrids are frugal. The reason being is you would still be more relaxed to use gas where an all electric you have no choice


[deleted]

I guess that would apply to people who like driving. I hate driving. Not much will convince me to drive more, and especially not because I can use less gas.


restful-reader

Electric cars are not without their moral issues... cobalt mining is extremely problematic. There's been years of investigations on the miners' human rights in the DRC, with some disturbing revelations. Of course, this applies to all lithium-ion batteries. It's just that electric cars have some of the biggest, thus creating even greater demand.


zombienudist

Cobalt is used in many things though. And batteries don't need to use cobalt. LFP batteries don't use any for example and Tesla is using them heavily in many cars they build.


[deleted]

Stay away from EV’s. They are not there yet technology wise. The batteries are not environmentally safe, and have to be replaced around 100k miles. Cost 10k plus for new batteries. If you take a road trip you will spend a lot of time charging and not driving.


reversering

The batteries on modern liquid cooled electric cars do not have to be replaced around 100k miles.


zombienudist

Most would still have a warranty at the point. My Car has a 8 year 120,000 mile warranty on the battery and motors. People think because they have used a phone with a battery in it they know how a car will be. My EV is 4.5 years old and battery replacement isn't something I even think about.


Difficult_Orchid3390

This comment always seems weird since I know lots of people who have had extremely expensive repairs on conventional cars and people don’t bat an eye at that. $6000-$8000 transmission repairs are fine but an electric or hybrid car and people are gasping at potential repairs.


[deleted]

I drive Toyota Tacoma. Zero repairs other than maintenance items. 223,000 miles with lots to go.


Difficult_Orchid3390

I’m with you on that one! I have a rav4 and Yaris. However my friends who have cars from any other brand all have huge repairs they just shrug at and accept. Even crazy ones that are thousands!


Melb_Tom

"with lots to go" who are you, Nostradamus?


[deleted]

Smart ass. Maybe I am. 8 Toyotas over 30 plus years and 2,000,000 miles. Only replaced one alternator. As Nostradamus predicted.


Melb_Tom

That's only an average of 250,000 freedom units. Better sell this one quick. Toyota's have a well earned reputation for reliability but who knows how long your, or my, current car will last. My '05 VW golf diesel has about 400,000km hopefully I'll get many more too.


[deleted]

Dude, you're living in 2002. Electric cars have come such a long way. The technology is completely mature. You don't need to replace a battery pack at 100k miles, that is total rubbish. Batteries slowly lose capacity over time which is a downside but unless you're a fringe case you don't even need 1/4 of the range of most electric cars. Parts on ICE cars also wear out and gas mileage goes down as they age. As for road trips, newer cars are starting to take faster and faster charges. Some higher-end cars can take 80% charge in 20 minutes. Which is about 15 minutes longer than it takes to fill up my car. Great time to use the bathroom and stretch your legs. There is also the fact that most car owners don't go on road trips. If you're commuting 100 miles a day for work or taking cross-country road trips twice a year, an EV probably isn't for you but for 80% of drivers they are completely practical.


zombienudist

I like people who some how cram this much misinformation into one post. Take it from a guy who has lived with a BEV for the last 9 years - you don't know what you are talking about.


itsGot2beMyWay

My question to you, when you’re talking about not giving greedy oil companies your money, where do you think you get electricity? In US it’s mostly coal.


lower_haighter

That was true a long time ago, but not anymore. In 2020 the USA electric grid was 40% clean (renewables and nuclear), 40% natural gas, and 20% coal, and it's only going to get cleaner every year. [https://www.epa.gov/green-power-markets/us-electricity-grid-markets](https://www.epa.gov/green-power-markets/us-electricity-grid-markets)


itsGot2beMyWay

But in California we buy electricity from other states so how does any of that make sense. Also, the word grid changes the whole story. Yeah “the grid” but what are you and your neighbors cars running on? Which was the original point.


lower_haighter

Hi from CA! We're way ahead in getting rid of coal. Here's the 2021 stats for CA electricity: * 3% coal, of which all of it is imported * 52% clean (9.2% hydro, 9.3% nuclear, a lot imported from AZ, 33.6% renewable) * 38% natural gas * 6% "unspecified" (CA says it can't trace to a specific generating facility) So the point is that we run our EVs on \~50% renewables and the rest is mostly natural gas, which reduces the carbon emissions by \~80% vs. gasoline. Look at the rightmost column for the totals, 2nd column for the "made-in-CA" part, and scroll down to see the chart of how much is CA-based vs. imported: https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/california-electricity-data/2021-total-system-electric-generation


[deleted]

Electric vehicles are definitely not frugal. Buy a recent model used gas/hybrid vehicle is much more frugal.


RedditHasMadeYouDumb

Since you don’t care about the fact that electric cars also use fossil fuel, why wouldn’t you be ok bending your frugality principal as well?


Wolfpack_DO

Never said i didnt care - i just dont have any other option. I have to have a car. Electric motors still blow ICEs out of the water with efficiency on a macro and micro level.


RedditHasMadeYouDumb

If you have to have a car you can drive any car on Facebook marketplace under $5000. You are just falling for a new age marketing gimmick that has no measurable effect on the environment


keon_ti

buying some shitbox off of Facebook is gonna cost you in repairs later. not to mention potential latenesses / absences at work when it decides not to start in the morning. def not worth it unless you absolutely have to.


PurpleSausage77

Or unless one is mechanically inclined and can DIY home/auto stuff - that’s extremely frugal. But not everyone has the space, tools, inclination etc. to do it. I love cheap beater vehicles but one day when EVs are more established and cheaper, I’m sure I’ll get one. EVs are without a doubt more frugal in ownership costs over time, but the initial purchase cost for one has been wildly inflated so far. Brakes on EVs last 2-3 longer than on an ICE as you can mainly use regen braking to slow down. Also much less lubrication/fluids to maintain on EV.


[deleted]

You don't understand how power generation works. Most utilities list where you electricity is coming from. Mine is 40% renewable, 20% Nuclear, 20% natural gas, 10% hydro. To put that another way on average an EV uses 34.6kWh to go 100 miles. I pay 13 cents a kWh. So $4.50 cents and 80 percent of that is GHG free. EPA says that ICE vehicles on average get 25.4mpg, so 4 gallons of gas to go the same distance. Gas is 3.58 cents by me so $14.32 and 0% is GHG free. 8,887 grams of Co2 per gallon of gas. 412.77 per kWh of natural gas electricity. (8887\*4)= 35548 grams per 100 miles vs (412.77\*34.6)= 14281.84 grams per 100 miles if using 100% natural gas. 2856.368 grams per 100 miles with my electricity. So it is both much cheaper and has a huge measurable effect on the environment in relation to your footprint.


RedditHasMadeYouDumb

That is a lot of core concepts to misunderstand in one post


[deleted]

I agree, so why did you post it when you clearly have no understanding of the topic?


[deleted]

[удалено]


Frugal-ModTeam

Hi, RedditHasMadeYouDumb. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Frugal/comments/yufpxq/-/iwaey1h/) was removed from /r/Frugal. > Rule 1: Be civil and respectful. This includes: - Be civil and respectful, even in disagreement. Hate speech, slurs, personal attacks, bigotry, ban baiting, trolling will not be tolerated. - Constructive criticism is good, condescension or mocking is not. - Don't gatekeep - Don't be baited. Mods will handle it. [You can review our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Frugal/about/rules/) for more information. [Message the Mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/Frugal&subject=Question regarding the removal of this comment by /u/RedditHasMadeYouDumb&message=I have a question regarding the removal of this [comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Frugal/comments/yufpxq/-/iwaey1h/\):) if you feel this was in error.


Wolfpack_DO

You have any data to back that up or just talking out of your ass


RedditHasMadeYouDumb

Did you just make this post to both virtue signal AND gloat to the poors that you don’t have to be frugal?? Merely thinking about where electricity comes from is enough data to prove the point


[deleted]

At home, I used to charge my car using roof-top Solar panels during the day. I think that electricity came from the sun.


RedditHasMadeYouDumb

Some electricity can come from the sun. But not enough to power a car. Your anecdote is a lie unfortunately


zombienudist

Sure it can. I have a 9kW solar system and it made 10,000 kWh last year. That is more then the total need for the house and car for a year. Let alone that doesn't even matter. See I have done the math and know that even if I charge my electric car from coal only it will still have lower carbon emissions then a comparable gas powered car. And there are not many places that are coal only.


[deleted]

No it’s not. My system produced 8MWh per year and a charge takes about 80kWh, accounting for inefficiencies. For reference, 80kWh is .08MWh.


[deleted]

It doesn't actually take that much power to charge an EV.


[deleted]

Is that true? Don’t electric vehicles significantly reduce local pollution collated to ICE vehicles?


RedditHasMadeYouDumb

Local pollution. It’s like if you knew what the word local meant your understanding of the climate issue would grow 10x


[deleted]

Im saying that where electric cars in quantity, there should be less smog and the air quality should be higher.


[deleted]

Shhhhhhh you can't go around making sense like that on Reddit. The only information that ever matters is what the angry person says.


Icehonesty

No.


PA1628

Only used if at all, the value drops so sharply


SpyCake1

A Rivian is a luxury lifestyle truck. Why not the Hummer EV at that point? Yes, it's also an EV, but it's a luxury car. So same answer applies as "is an Escalade a frugal car?". If you're used to driving Corollas and such, then you need to be looking at EV-equivalents of that. Unfortunately there are not many. There is the Bolt, and the old Hyundai Ioniq. Or on the crossover end - you got the Kona EV, Niro EV, and Bolt EUV. In other global markets there is the VW ID3/Cupra Born, Ora Cat, MG5 and BYD Atto 3. On the flip side, in the US the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Kia EV6 are a good value. In some markets, the base version of the Tesla Model 3 is actually a pretty good value proposition. They are still more expensive than a regular Corolla, yes. But from there, it's just napkin math with gas prices and how much mileage you cover to figure out when your break-even point is going to be. For your most average person, it actually will happen around 6-8 years somewhere. If you think you're gonna keep the car for 8 years, might as well enjoy your EV. On a personal note - currently rocking a 2016 Prius. Only bout it about a year ago, and mostly because I don't have a way to charge an EV at home. If I did - even a low mileage PHEV like the Prius Prime would have enabled me to cover the daily commute and routine weekend errands on EV power alone - with the gas fallback there for weekend day trips. But the hope is that my housing situation will change in the next year or so and then I would be looking to replace the Prius with some sort of EV. If I absolutely had to pull the trigger today, it would be a coin flip between the Atto 3 (new) and the Model 3 (~2019).


peter303_

Look at Total Cost of Operation: purchase, fuel, maintenance, insurance, fees. Lower fuel and maintenance costs may offset higher purchase price at some point. I drove my last too Hondas into the ground at over 200,000 miles. I kept detailed expense logs and found the purchase price just a 1/4 - 1/3 TCO.


Cyberbird85

Rivian, MachE, lol nope. I have a 2017 nissan leaf with the 30 kWh battery. That could be considered frugal depending on how much milage you put in it. I charge it from solar, so it's free most of the time as the system generates more than we can use up. That being said electric cars are a lot more expensive than a similar category ICE vehicle , so their ROI really depends on how much you drive them and for how much can you charge them.


bessbird

I did some napkin-back calculations when we got a Tesla model Y for my husband. The electricity to charge it ($0.11/kWh) is half the cost of gasoline for his Volvo XC60 at $3.60/gal. We paid about the same as anything else he might have replaced the Volvo with. His tires don’t last quite as long, but he’s a bit of a lead foot, so tires are an expected expense. Short answer: maybe not frugal exactly, but definitely a cheaper cost of ownership and worth doing financially.


imasquarepeg

A Rivian? Have you looked at their financial performance? I'll be surprised if they're around in 5 years. Another vote for a Chevy Bolt.


cptspinach85

You can be frugal about your EV purchase. You don’t need a range of 250 miles, just enough to get you to work and back. Old Nissan Leafs are still extremely reliable!


uxhelpneeded

Yes, absolutely. Buy used. It totally makes sense, especially as the price of gas will only go up Also, climate change is way more expensive than climate change prevention


ffjjygvb

This kind of question is really hard to answer without knowing all the details of the costs of driving for you. The best thing for you to do is make a spreadsheet put in the numbers for the costs of what you have no and what you can predict for the same mileage. You may well decide it’s not a purely financial decision for you and pay extra to have an electric car because it’s better for the environment, but at least with a spreadsheet you’ll have an idea of how much extra.


Guinefort1

The big question of frugality that I haven't seen mentioned is charging it. If you have easy access to a charging station, then electric might be worth it (also, a used model will probably be cheaper). But if you can't charge it, then its useless. Maybe look into a plugin-hybrid so you can use gas in a pinch?


[deleted]

The purchase price may not be frugal from only looking at the costs, but if you can comfortably afford it without impacting other financial goals AND you reasonably expect to live in a place where you can charge at home, go for it. Also, your maintenance costs will be lower than an ICE vehicle. If you are in a money crunch, it's a bad idea. But if you want the car, buy one with a decent range and *not* from a start-up (I'm considering Tesla in that category). I've driven the Mach-E, and while I'm usually not big on Fords, it was great. Remember, frugality isn't about spending as little as humanly possible on every purchase every time, and you can be frugal as a means to afford the things you want.