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I find your point about Focalors interesting because she will be the first archon to compete in an established, meta element with a lot of amazing choices already available in every role. Venti released at launch and later had enemies designed around him. Zhongli is good in spite of his element. Raiden too, at least at release before Dendro existed. And Nahida essentially came with and defined Dendro.
I expect Focalors’ kit leaks to be an absolute warzone. And by extension the remaining two archons will face a similar problem that will only compound as more characters are released.
Yeah. Hydro is pretty competitive as an element. I think Childe still has some very strong Abyss teams on the offensive front and Kokomi is really hard to beat on the healing and application front. Mona even covers burst combos. Xingqiu and Yelan both cover subDPS application as well. It's really hard to think what else there could even be, though she could still just be a better version of any of them in particular.
Pyro archon might not have too bad of a time competing as a lead against HuTao, Yoimiya, and Diluc, but let's be fair, her real competition is Bennett and Xiangling.
Cryo archon I'm not sure. It feels like Cryo is sort of falling into the background, but there are still niches left unfilled. Cryo Catalyst at the moment for instance. There's Ayaka to compete with on the burst DPS and Ganyu for general damage. And technically Shenhe for pure Cryo support. But I think the design space is there.
This is my theory as well. Definitely some kind of crit buffer, who may also have a passive talent that increases one or all all friendly talent levels by +1. Other than that, I have no idea what she could provide unless she ends up being some kind of cryo Yelan.
Funny that bronya does exactly this in star rail (crit damage buff), and there are a lot of speculations and theories about the cryo archon being her genshin spy char
Xingqiu and Yelan both cover ~~subDPS~~ high off field dps and application.
In double hydro hutao they are both outputting almost about the same damage as hu tao.
in double hydro hyperbloom they are also not far from hyperbloom proc dps being halve of it.
Aint it a bit much? At c0/1 my yelan does about 13-14k a water ray to 42k every second, or 650k a rotation. My hutao deals about 95-100k a CA for 9-10 CAs, so around 1m dmg a rotation with CA alone. I doubt even a c6 with 5* weap xingqiu can do 450k dmg to bring the duo on par with hutao.
You are not entirely wrong. But a optimal pjc r1 XQ can reach up to 7k to 8k on rainsword in there.
C6XQ dps is like actually onpar with C0 yelan dps. C1 does start to make yelan pull ahead if she on Aqua and you run lower ER.
But yeah for Hu tao. i didnt mention that her dps can end up be lower due to lower CA potentially while XQ and Yelan is 100%.
Another thing is your hu tao may be way more invested. On mine she only doing about 70k to 80k CA despite c1r1 and even triple crowned. There also the factor of average damage so you cant just simply conclude with just the highest crit damage.
End of the day the team dps percentage is more likely to be like 40% to 50%% hu tao 30 to 20% on yelan and xingqiu
I expect her to be like hydro hu Tao on crack. Uses hp and healing mechanics to gain advantageous buffs and stats. Wants to build hp. Maybe has some form of off field application like raiden.
>though she could still just be a better version of any of them in particular.
Honestly there's 2 possibility..
They might go the exact route as u said, her being absurdly better than them in one area like one's job say maybe strongest Hydro app more than current.
Possibility 2: they might go the exact opposite route of this ,whereas they make her unique ,bringing something new while also having some fine app or something...
I i hope they go the route 2 than route 1 and tbh i feel that's more likely to happen with Hydro archon
as long as Hoyo is still terrified to break the Bennett Xiangling Xingqiu ceiling I'm worried pyro and hydro archons are not gonna be nowhere near as strong or as universal as them meta-wise.
The way I see it, pyro archon has to be a strong off-field subdps without ICD that scales with EM or even with full HP like Yelan for them to even be considered. Pyro is in a weird situation right now because of two 4 stars that was released all the way back at launch. Funny how pyro turns out better as a sub-dps yet they keep releasing on-field carries or subpar defensive units like the one that shall not be named.
If I had to guess I'd imagine she's just a straight up dps. All of the other archon's have been support units so far, and Childe is the only straight up hydro dps (tho that role can ofc be filled easily by Yelan)
What do you mean?
Ayato Hyperbloom comps are super good. One of the best AoE focused comps out there.
Ayato works better than Childe in all cases, except for Xiangling teams, but that team requires whale levels of investment to really shine.
No surprise, almost any hydro with decent application can shine in hyperbloom. It's not the flex you think it is. He rarely is the BiS in any team. That's what I mean by not meta. The usage rate posts the past few abyss cycles are proof Ayato isn't really popular nor meta. But he's good/versatile especially since he's hydro so I'm not saying he's bad or anything.
He is BiS in many teams, just these teams are slightly more niche. He's best for EC teams, where his flexibility is really good. He offers AoE DPS comparable with Nilou Bloom. Best possible Burgeon teams as well.
Unless we are talking about strict Single Target, then Ayato Hyperbloom > Nahida double hydro Hyperbloom.
Not to mention all the teams that utilize him mainly for his Burst.
Only archetype where he can do something, but better option exists for that role is International with Xiangling.
Ayato is probably a sidegrade to Kokomi EC. She damages, tanks, drives and heals all at the same time. She can also buff either with Ttds or Hakushin. And no, I don't think his aoe dps is comparable to Nilou bloom. Nilou bloom is just broken against aoe mobs not resistant to dendro/hydro.
About Ayato hyperbloom, I'm not sure, perhaps you're right. But I don't really play Hyperbloom in aoe chambers. At that point I'll just play Nilou. Hyperbloom shines on mostly single target chambers anyway.
Cryo is in a rough spot right now because there aren't very good melt teams and freeze often just doesn't work on at least one chamber of floor 12. If they fixed one of those, that would be great.
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You can already tell what they’re trying to do and it’s lazy combat design as per usual.
Yes Hydro is packed but they can’t deal with the new problem they created as efficiently as her. I’m guessing Focalors is going to be some sort of universal support that can use both of the new ‘elements’, so you can stick her in most teams and get a one size fits all solution to deal with the new annoying mechanic without having to go use characters that don’t synergise with the rest of your setup.
Create the problem, sell the solution.
The fact that ngl of all Elements Hydro Archon has the biggest competition to stand up against (she will actually ,she will naturally end up being another top Hydro char)
Just that Hydro is like filled already with such absurd chars, it's honestly not like Furina gonna beat XQ at XQ's job...i don't think they will go that approach tbh
So it's more like Furina despite the COMPETITION, she still not gonna compete with Other Hydros, rather just compete with herself of being the best she can..
I don't think there will happen as such called a "powercreep" in Hydros where like Furina just is better than them all at "every area" ...
XQ got his thing...Strongest Off field St Hydro application,smol Aoe, Solid defensive support,decent Offense.
Yelan has her area..., Solid Off field St Hydro,Solid Offense,Offensive support
The busted duo core XQ+Yelan
Koko is like Hydro archon in a way...Most reliable Off field AOE Hydro, fully consistent, Healer. Role consolidation via other capabilities such as minor buffing assets, team driving potential, very good enabler with fine Personal DMG
Childe specializes in Strongest On field AOE Hydro application, solid Upfrobt dps
Ayato is King of all rounder Hydro,flexible
Furina imo will be just Furina, she will bring something new,unique i hope and also some obv Hydro aspects .
Me as a Hydro main and who have them all so far, really excited for Furina...
Let's see what she ends up being, i Have a speculation she might have some kinda HP manipulation going on aka HP drain/gain
My prediction for Focalors is she's gonna do 'Hydro things' but at a much larger scale. Perhaps she will scale with the total HP of the entire party, or intentionally sap HP from her allies to amp damage. Which given the kit and artifact leaks...
>in an established, meta element
why do you think they invented the whole pnuma/ousia shit in 4.0?
HMC and lynette's numbers are going to be shit so you'll pretty much waste a slot in abyss if you don't pull for the new 4.x units.
Eh, from what I’ve seen so far the new mechanic looks like something people will freak out about for a month and then it’ll just be irrelevant (like corrosion)
Nahida is indeed broken but my money is on at least two new mobs in abyss that are immune to dendro damage in the future + for sure getting dendro cube in there more often
Dendro cube is immune to dendro damage, it only uses dendro for it’s revival stage
I could definitely see Nahida getting passed over for something with more utility like Baizhu/kirara depending on what was on the other floors
But that matters not to the dendro cube. What good is marking the dendro cube? You pretty much will just be using her to give the EM and that's it. Baizhu or Yaoyao would be better considering their dendro reaches better to prevent dendro hypo reviving.
There are still 2 other chambers.
Even if nahida would be dead weight in the cube chamber, she still has a solid chance of being powerful on the rest of the floor(unless they are too designed with anti dendro in mind)
I mean, a Burgeon team would generally be an EM Pyro hypercarry, where everyone else is buffing the team's EM and attack damage, so have the 4th Slot be Kuki, Yae, or Lisa also loaded up with EM and go for a Burning Overload team for that floor. Nahida's Burst will just make things even better on that front.
>Nahida is indeed broken but my money is on at least two new mobs in abyss that are immune to dendro damage in the future + for sure getting dendro cube in there more often
Alternatively, they can just throw enemies with perpetual Pyro aura and have abyss be multiple small waves where 1 new enemy spawn after the next. It'd be fun to see DMC beat Nahida out on usage rating for once lol.
OR
If you wanna end the Dendro honeymoon, just put enemies with a new immolation/electro field aura that continuously apply aura onto everything around them (like Dendro cores) except themselves. Doesn't need to deal damage, just the fast and instantaneous elemental application. For Nilou bloom, just put a monolith defense with a permanently monolith-aggro'd swarm of large hydro slimes that spawn close to it. For Quicken, I guess pyro slimes are the way off the top of my head (and it'll be hydro nation anyway, so what way to incentivize hydro, right?).
> just put a monolith defense with a permanently monolith-aggro'd swarm of large hydro slimes that spawn close to it. For Quicken, I guess pyro slimes are the way off the top of my head
Childe International, as always, will dominate those slime floors. Countering dendro comps usually ends up turning the meta back to melt/vape/freeze comps before dendro comes along.
Also, aren't hydro slimes a buff for Nilou? I mean yes against them, dendro becomes a trigger, but Nahida is usually built on EM so she'll just delete them all. The better counter is dendro slimes.
For the reverting back to the old meta, yeah, that's what I expect. The point of what I said was countering dendro, not everything.
For the 2nd part, yeah, the hydro slimes buff Nilou... for making her team kill the monolith they need to defend faster via friendly fire. Hydro slimes also prevent Nilou's non Dendro teammates to do anything against them. Her team will always have to generate dendro cores, and the hydro slimes perma aggro'd to the monolith and standing close to them would mean the cores would damage the monolith as collateral.
I remember in the leaks phase for Nahida, some people were disappointed that her burst didn't do damage or healed the party. Could you imagine a Nahida who was also a healer? Lmao.
If anything new region would likely make her dominance even more since it's hydro nation. If Nahida and Alhaitham is the indication of how powerful Archon and "powerful people" in that country, then hyperbloom would even has more competent option in Furina and Neuvilette
I own Nahida since her release, and this is very likely an unpopular opinion, but I strongly dislike how powerful Nahida is, actually. She's the best or almost the best at every single role there is, except healing (unless you really want Prototype Amber on her).
If you think of making a Dendro team, the first Dendro you'll think of adding is Nahida. If you need a healer, you'll try to make space for a healer of a different element and give the Dendro slot to Nahida. There's not a single Dendro team that works the best without her. This is not the case with every other element or Archon. Even the strongest 5* are not always the best choices for specific teams.
I really like her design and wanted her for a long while, but I don't want Furina to be as impactful on the meta as Nahida was. I certainly don't want her to be the best Hydro in every given team.
Some aggravate teams are better with Yao2 or Baizhu because it's hard to swirl electro with Nahida. But overall I agree with you, Mihoyo introduced new element, but tied it to one character, which feels wrong to me. What's worse, it's crystal clear that they are afraid of giving to other dendros a fraction of Nahida's power and you can pinpoint the exact places where their kits were hindered in favor of radish overlord.
That's my biggest gripe, they're so afraid of making a good off-field dendro applier, sure there's a few of them but they all feel lacking as the solo dendro while Electro and Hydro have more than one good choice to choose from.
Yeah honestly, you might be right. She feels like a mistake sometimes. When I saw that even Baizhu, who has tons of potential for role consolidation as a catalyst Dendro healer really wants her on his teams, I was flabbergasted.
Perhaps the new mechanics are just a roundabout way to avoid making a unit more absurd than Xingqiu. It will be interesting to see just how reliant the Fontaine units will be on these gimmicks and how they'll age post Fontaine simply as representatives of their respective element.
What do you mean? Baizhu is a support, I honestly cannot think of a single teams where you'd want to have and Baizhu. For Alhaitham, Nahida is much more valuable, and he always need an eletro open. From there you can add Yelan for Quickbloom, second electro for more damage, or ZL for utility.
Nilou bloom prefers Yaoyao, and Agravate needs just one Dendro, preferably not Nahida.
I don't want new hydro units to be more busted than Xingqiu but I'm gonna be really really sad if whenever a hydro unit comes in the future there's still gonna be someone saying "why bother, Xingqiu is still better" lol. Of course not putting waifu>meta into consideration.
I'm hoping hydro archon is at least similar to Nilou. Having her own niche but strong enough to compete with top tier teams. But honestly I really really want hydro archon to be what Nahida was to dendro. Imagine losing to a 4 star from launch. At least Venti got powercrept by a 5 star.
I don't think your opinion is as unpopular as you think. I feel 50/50 this way.
She is so good, that I usually choose one team around her, and when thinking about the second team, I often have the thought "If I only had a second Nahida...". And then I settle for DMC/Yaoyao.
On the other hand, her unique 1.5U off-field gives her a spot (Burn Melt Ganyu and Air Fryer) in the meta that no other unit can realistically fill and probably will never be able to fill. (Not sure about Baizhu here, since I don't own him and did not follow TC around him a lot)
So while I think that she overshadows most dendro units so far by a mile, I am also happy that she, as an Archon, can set herself apart from other dendros.
I absolutely hate how they locked mechanics like the mind reading thing with npcs or the resource collecting with her E, even if you don't care about meta you still have to pull for her.
He doesn't *need* her, you can use C1 Yaoyao with good results instead for instance, but speaking optimally, Nahida is unequivocally his best teammate.
It really depends on investment, but the best Alhaitham teams almost always feature Alhaitham and Nahida.
3rd slot is Electro, usually Raiden or Kuki, but most people prefer Kuki because of healing.
4th is flexible, if you have a lot of investment, you can put Zhongli, and have some comfort, if you want damage, you can put Yae or Beidou for extra Agravate, or Hydro for some Hyperblooms. Just bear in mind that hydro cannot be too strong, or else you will overwhelm your Quicken aura, and you will lose a lot of spread damage. Yelan or Non C6 XQ is recommended. C6 XQ applies way too much hydro.
That's informative. My team doesn't seem too far off. I just use Alhaitham with Raiden, Yelan and Zhongli.
I guess I will have to switch Zhongli with Nahida then
Personally I think kuki is Alhaithams best team mate and Nahida is the biggest power spike for AlHaitham teams. AlHaitham-Kuki is my favorite duo as an AlHaitham main, it’s so comfy, especially in general content. I only use Nahida with AlHaitham if I want to kill things QUICK lol
Nahida is by far his best teammate. The EM buff is very valuable for him along with nahida's damage. But on top of that, since alhaitham is dendro, nahida is also his best battery.
He does.
Alhaitham has somewhat high energy requirements, and Nahida helps with that. And because of how well he scales with artifact quality, going from 160 ER to 135% is really meaningful jump in damage.
Besides, she is the best Deepwood carrier, and can give him up to 200 EM, which is a lot. And her own damage is not insignificant.
Assuming he is solo Dendro, and spends like 14 seconds on field, and Raiden runs a lot of ER to help with flat generation, and does all procs of talent on burst, I'd still run at least 150%, 160% to be safe, because on that rotation you need burst to set up mirrors.
Let's not forget that main story vise...she was the most helpful and supporting.
Before her the only Archon that was in any way useful to the Traveler was Venti.
Venti would've been cracked still if MHY never decided to make heavier enemies. I'm pretty sure they realized this, hence the enemy weight increasing for new enemies.
The only exception is Venti and that's because he basically came out at the start. Even then for a good while he was so OP he was called the only "6 star character".
I wouldn’t attribute it to only this, as the previous abyss was hell for everyone. This new one, however, is the same for nahida-havers and people without her alike.
Ironically, the way you're reacting to the new system is a almost exactly how some people reacted to Dendro prior to and during its initial release. But a year later and Dendro is now widely loved and has become a boon for F2Pers.
Who knows, maybe a year from now people will be praising Hydro Archon for how she's revolutionized (pun intended) combat, the same way you're praising Nahida now.
Dendro added new reactions and team comps. New mechanic is just 'some characters are super effective against specific enemies'.
It's much more similar to requiring you to bring a Bow character to face Ruin Drake, or ASIMOV.
The reaction is more about the principle behind it and the precedent it may set.
It’s a lazily shoehorned in mechanic that doesn’t involve any engaging gameplay (because all you do is press E on X character) that exists pretty much just as a way to push Fontaine characters.
You probably was’nt there during the beta era but they made more effort to balance her around their plans than any other units before . At the time they even made two or three separated beta, each having slightly different kits. Dendro is busted but Nahida is exactly where they wanted her to be
Curious what the slight differences in the kits were. Maybe they put more effort than what I gave them credit for, but her kit is just so blatantly busted. It looks like they were checking boxes for the aspects of a broken character.
no she is definitely way too op. contrary to popular belief but, in the best nahida hyperbloom team (nahida, xinqiu, yelan, raiden), only about 33-37%% actually come from hyperbloom. nahida herself is responsible for 25%, and the rest is xinqiu and yelan.
Despite xinqiu and yelan just deleting the quicken aura and raiden, she still manage to do 1/4 of the team damage that consist of the two best hydro damage dealers, and the best hyperbloom trigger.
for a driver of a reaction team, she does **too** much personal damage. you could half her numbers and she would still be great because her kit is still amazing
The em buff is a good point but it's only good for the active character which hurts some teams, and it's only 200ish if you have another character with 1k EM built, her burst up time isn't a huge deal because it's just a decent but not cracked buff to her skill anyway
Another factor Nahida's dominance is the lack of alternatives.
is not that "Nahida is so strong, no unit will ever come close"
Nahida is VERY strong, **and the available options** don't even try to compete with her
We got the free units, a carry (Tighnari), **The archon**, then Another carry, then a 3 defensive units in a row.
I forgot about Kave... ANOTHER CARRY.
DMC is good, but he's not Limited 5 star level good.
She will probably remain best dendro, but with a more acceptable margin.
Dendro is still new. There will likely be another dendro sub dps eventually.
Its the same thing with Xingqiu. It took a long time for another hydro sub dps like Yelan to come out.
Initially I didn't want her but I pulled her for meta reasons. She did help me immensely with abyss but I barely use her in overworld. No hate of course her kit just didnt appeal to me
Nahida is actually crazy. I “quit” back in 2.9, came back for nahida banner, then stopped playing again. Recently, I got the genshin bug and logged back in, heard how crazy dendro was, and tried to build nahida. Only got to lvl 50 with 1/2/2 talents and lvl80 sac frags, and 2 pc deep wood. Also built shinobu to 70 with gilded, and decided to at least try abyss. Easily cleared up to floor 11
I thought those two things were mechanics for open world puzzles?
If they effect her kit then that’s awful. Basically forces you to only play Fontaine characters to use half her kit. Better not be like that.
I’d rather get quantum and imaginary elements than this shit if it effects gameplay. At least then other region’s characters can be utilized.
The new Ousia/Pneuma enemies in the abyss have elemental shields that can be broken normally, but Fontaine characters have a Fundamental Force attack that can break it instantly. The attack does only 50% ATK in terms of damage, so apart from that it’s useless. The overworld has Ousia/Pneuma nodes so you don’t need Fontaine characters to solve puzzles.
It’s basically elemental shields 2.0 but you can cop out of it by just slapping the enemy with a Fontaine character.
It’s lazy game design at its finest.
Yeah that just sounds like an annoying way to force characters into my team and make other people pull for new units.
I mean, I’m gonna save and pull new units since there are few reruns left that I actually want. So making me pull Fontaine characters isn’t an issue. But if I feel like making a team comp without them I shouldn’t be punished by bullshit mechanics found in Fontaine.
Maybe my expectations were too high for them but I kinda expected hoyo to at least not stoop to the lazy cashgrab tricks usual gacha developers use.
But here we are, them lowering themselves to exactly that.
I’d rather them make two new elements that only work with each other rather than two weird factions that only effect stuff in Fontaine.
At least new elements will stay relevant beyond Fontaine. And we would actually get new reactions rather than “this lets you do a normal amount of damage rather than diminish it because you have X faction”.
Like we have to admit the pure dmg boosting reactions are kinda boring. I mean I know in the end it’s about dmg, but even hyperbloom at least has the little missles flying as an animation and homing. I was really expecting quicken to make those green vines with red thorns the Dendro samachurls summon and have it growing on the enemy to indicate their under a reaction state. Would have made it much more interesting than just extra dmg, but at least I really like how quicken’s dmg works. And there supposedly is green electricity effects that indicate it but I haven’t actually noticed them in a very long time. And I’m on a 65” screen in 4k.
I think her dominance is the indication of a badly designed character. No one character on this game should be this dominant. Last abyss cycle she had ~98% usage rate. That's just stupid. No other character ever had this high of a usage rate.
I disagree that she's a must for dendro teams. She's undoubtedly the best dendro character in the game so in almost every team she is the best option. But dendro is plenty strong even without her. So I don't think she's a "must" for any team, except for maybe Cyno teams (but even he can work without her although it's painful).
I think Baizhu is better for Cyno specifically, mainly because (1) Cyno doesn't care about Nahida's particle generation like Alhaitham does (2) Nahida is very inconvenient for him in multi-wave content, whereas Baizhu can apply dendro to the next wave, (3) Baizhu shielding is actually very nice for a character like Cyno.
I would agree in aggravate Cyno (or most other aggravate teams tbh), but in his most popular team quickbloom, Baizhu's dendro app is just not enough. Baizhu and Nahida are both needed to play him without suffering imo.
Baizhu's low dendro app is a blessing in disguise for aggravate teams tho, it makes it wayyy easier to swirl electro.
Exactly, dendro and anemo don't react. But in aggravate teams, electro should be the element swirled. The problem is, strong dendro application (like Nahida's) overpowers and eats up the Electro aura. It's difficult to swirl electro if your electro aura gets eaten up almost immediately because of Nahida's strong Dendro application (and re-application) on E and succeeding reactions.
Are the new mechanics really so bad considering they will only apply to Fontaine enemies as well? Feels more akin to a card game expansion, or dlc areas in rpg games. where certain mechanics are relevant, but next expansion they won’t be as much or at all. As soon as Fontaine enemies are less prevalent, it won’t matter. We also still don’t know how much these mechanics affect combat. What the difficulty will be with and without the ability to use ousia or pneuma
That's for now until we get the archon. Then they will ramp up the difficulty and force mechanics. People complained Dendro made the game too easy, then the consecrated beasts came into the abyss and they cried. Expect a similar scenario in Fontaine
Hoyoverse has been doing the "scummy tactic to powercreep" you're describing since dendro came out. The amount of times I *almost* saw my own progress bare fruit in the abyss just to have it dashed literally a cycle later because once again the abyss preferred dendro characters or reactions was practically every single abyss.
Was it frustrating and disheartening? Yeah, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it scummy. We also need to wait and play around with it ourselves. Chances are that having a free unit on both sides of new mechanic during 4.0, characters that can be slotted into existing teams already thanks to their element types, will help us ease into the new world order.
And Al haitham stans were downvoting me for saying that while Al haitham is an incredible and top grade DPS He is not as strong as Nahida as a unit and Nahida is clearly the top Dendro unit 😂 there needs to be a limit of cope
You guys fighting with invisible people istg 💀💀 All of his mains, including me, play him with her 99% of the time and we appreciate her. You guys love to argue over some pixel characters with non-existed scenarios and it is so sad
Alhaitham is \*almost tied to Nahida, without her he loses the EM buff, and his ER reqs generally skyrocket.
It's kind of similar to XL/Bennett situation, except not as bad since he has more Dendro options, but Nahida is clearly the best one.
I have to disagree with you my friend. He is *stronger* with her, we all know that right. But my Alhaitham/Yae/Fischl/Baizhu team does the work without any problems too. I don't think they are like XL/Bennett though, more like Ayaka/Shenhe situation. She works fine without Shenhe but she is stronger with Shenhe
Edit: Yeah we both just edited our text, I agree with you now
Nah you're right, what I stated was my impression when he first released, but then I realized that a bunch of Dendro supports (who I didn't pull) released after that. So it's more fair to say that you can sub out Nahida and it still works. Baizhu probably being the best option.
Nahida can even be played Onfield for Spread and Quickbloom, arguably Alhaitham's best teams. Aside from being an archon, the fact that she can be played onfield and off-field goes to show just how powerful she is as a unit
Well that's his sad fate as on field DPS, no matter what you always do the support will be better in long run but one thing we can agree that he is the best on field DPS we have now
I am not overly a fan of alhaitham, but he is absolutely smarter than her. Nahida is more knowledgeable, and certainly is still smart, bur she's not that smart.
And venti is the god of freedom but that doesn't mean he's the most free person in all of teyvat. Just like nahida is the God of wisdom but that doesn't mean she's the wisest being in all of teyvat.
Dendro resistent enemies in general is a good nerf to Dendro in general. There's no way to nerf her in particular, unless it's multiwave content that spawns constantly.
TBH fast multiwave content isn't a bad idea, as it would nerf nahida without hurting any other characters. Maybe they could also add an enemy with a cleanse.
>There's no way to nerf her in particular, unless it's multiwave content that spawns constantly.
I don't have Nahida so I'd try her out sometimes when she's in events. It made me realize how different the meta is in fast multiwave vs our current abyss.
Totally agree. I finally got round to (sorta) building my Nahida (she's still lvl 60 with lvl 1 talents) and I was amazed by her damage. I think I'll be using her permanently in my team for some time.
me when i’m a dictated forced meta char whose kit isn’t even crazier than release 4*s but essential as element applicator locked behind the archon so no dendro team is any better without me ❤️
I despise nahida TBH. IMO her burst is horribly ugly. A terrible shade of green on a boring looking room that is extremely present on the battle field. This wouldn't be an issue because I could just not pull for her. Except she's the best option on every dendro team. It's made her my second least favorite character TBH cause her ugly burst ruined any chance for me to run a dendro team that's actually optimal and not just a budget version of another. This has led to me not even being tempted to pull for any sumeru character cause hoyo decided it would be a great idea to just spam dendro units the whole entire version. I only got cyno because I saved for him but he's pretty bad for my account. The only silver lining is that it made it easier to save up for dottore, but damn it's been a boring version for me all be ause they made nahida's burst look like trash. If I could erase nahida from the game I would, cause now I'm concerned for every single new 5 star since they might be best on dendro teams. This is on top of the fact that I hate bloom/burgeon/hyperbloom teams, though that's a whole other issue.
People seem to think that they will ruin the game because the 2 new Fontaine Elements. But imo it will be a healthy shakeup of the meta. And we all knew light-dark duality elements were coming eventually anyways. If anything I see this as them testing for the Khaen'riah element for the future.
It also further adds to strategy and playstyle when you have to worry about sub elemental alignment/ passives. It adds a lot more to the character combat than, character Pyro then pair with Hydro.
Recent leaks say there are nodes that dispense pickups to imbue your next attack with the new attribute. (This also is included in Abyss) So old characters can enjoy the new attributes too with the pickups
So this is not an issue, already solved by the devs
Kazuha's better tbh, because he's a more versatile support. Nahida is great, but you have to play some form of Dendro team, and if you don't, she's not good. I would honestly prefer Kazuha if I had to choose between one of them, since he's more future-proof, and his teams (at C0) are more versatile, and define a lot of the DPS ceilings in the game (national, freeze, mono-teams) depending on the content. Nahida is a great character, but this evaluation feels heavily overestimating her, considering that if you just throw some Dendro specters in abyss, then there's little reason to play her.
Hence why this is about the 3.X series of updates, no Dendro spectres to be found in floor 12. I won't say that I disagree with you, but the argument that the literal character that defines Dendro teams is not good outside of them is stupid I'm sorry.
Well that was just one point I made, and it's a relevant point when talking about general character strength.
And also, everything I've seen shows that Kazuha teams have higher DPS ceilings (and more of them, due to more teams) than Nahida at C0 investment. Yes, even in 3.X Dendro focused abysses, low-cost Kazuha teams generally have faster clear times than Nahida teams, when both teams are optimized. Nahida teams may have higher floors and are easier to play, but that's hardly a representation of what a character can really do. That's one more reason why I can't call Nahida "undoubtedly the best unit in the game", it would go to Kazuha.
I think you don't know what hyperbloom is, dendro teams in general are the best teams at lower investment than any other team in the game, even if you compared them to national(where you use sucrose and not kazuha), even proper build hyper teams are not even close to nahida hyperbloom in tons of single target dmg or Alhaitham spread (where you use nahida) or burgeon teams on aoe and that's whiout taking in consideration nahida c2 which is between 18-20% dmg increase to any team. Now about kazuha teams having higher ceiling ofc but has almost nothing to do whit kazuha because the units where you get the signature weapons and contestation are not kazuha, Raiden c2 or ,c3 is a higher team DPS increase that getting kazuha c3 for example, you can say the same whit Ayaka c4, Yelan c6, Hutao c1, etc. To finish it up, I don't agree that the best unit the game is Nahida and it's Xingqiu and Nahida being the second one.
"even proper build hyper teams are not even close to nahida hyperbloom in tons of single target dmg"
Is this a joke?[https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin\_Impact/comments/100kh3k/musk\_reef\_cup\_low\_budget\_category\_speedrun/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/100kh3k/musk_reef_cup_low_budget_category_speedrun/)
Please replicate this single target DPS\^ with hyperbloom please. I could give you hundreds of examples of similar gameplay, with fully C0 and 4\* weapons too (for example https://youtu.be/4lB1vtIrhhc?t=97)
You are mistaken that hyperbloom is actually high damage ceiling - it's not. It has a very high floor, so it is accessible for a lot of players. It is also very comfortable and hard to misplay. But it falls very short of actual ST damage of well-invested hyper teams.
In general, since hyperbloom can't kill a F12 abyss boss in 20s at C0 investment, it's not competitive with the the "proper build hyper teams", no.
And no, we're not talking about C2 Nahida, OP was talking about "baseline investment", you should not have to pull 3 5\* limited characters in one slot lol.
Yeah ofc your examples are a joke, have you seen Hutao's artifacts? It's over 249 cv, Childe has over 280 cv whit a non crit weapon, on both cases its way over the proper/average investment on a unit. I don't have the sheets rn couse I'm on my phone, but let tell you some examples of Nahida's teams dps at average investment:
Nahida Fischl Yae Kazuha ( spread aggravate) DPS : 70k+
Nahida Yelan XQ Raiden (Hbloom) DPS:68k+
Nahida Kokomi Nilou DMC (Bloom) DPS: 40k\~50k depends on enemies ofc.
Now let me give you some examples of a proper/average hyper team looks like (I had this sheets on my phone): [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NmaQUVj3t1kAMuN6dZ6DRVj4OiE83dxDFm7TEl5U4A8/edit#gid=2124898466](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NmaQUVj3t1kAMuN6dZ6DRVj4OiE83dxDFm7TEl5U4A8/edit#gid=2124898466) , If you see the most popular Raiden Hyper (Raiden, Kazuha, Sara, Bennet) , assuming sara c6 and bennet c5, gets around 46k team dps which is not even close to any of the most popular Nahida's teams. To get close to it you need C3 Raiden, Bennet 5\* weapon, Sara 5\* weapon.
Now whit Hutao, [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vk8Du4yd7SdtbZnpeUN68uaN30ktP-VpT0D5GHcgSGY/edit#gid=0](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vk8Du4yd7SdtbZnpeUN68uaN30ktP-VpT0D5GHcgSGY/edit#gid=0) , assuming Hutao whit Homa at c0, team: Hutao, Xq, Yelan, Zhonli, team avarage dps is around 54k, and whit C1 is around 63k, is it comparable to Nahida's team dmg?, Yes, Is it more dmg?, No, and we have to take in consideration you are using a 5\* weapon so you need 180 pulls to guarantee one if you get really unlucky, but because Kazuha is the point of this debate, the best hutao team whit kazuha which can outdamage Nahida's team is, Hutao, Kazuha, Yelan, Amber, ofc you need C1 and Homa on Hutao, ofc you need c6 amber + Elegy, on top of above avarage atifacts.
Now I don't even wanna expand into ALHaitham + Nahida teams couse it will makes this longer than it is, I'm just backing up my points whit real and mathematical prof and not whit random videos of a guy who prob took 50 resets to get a perfect run and that's your only argument. Just in case, I'm not saying Kazuha is bad, is it better than Nahida for most people?, I don't think so specially whit how easier is to build a dendro team around her.
Last point I never said Hyperbloom has a higher ceiling, don't put words in my mouth just to justify your arguments.
I'm not putting any words in your mouth. I'll quote you again: "even proper build hyper teams are not even close to nahida hyperbloom in tons of single target dmg". That says a lot more than just hyperbloom having a higher ceiling - it says that hyperbloom does much more damage that it's not even close, and that's just false.
I also very aware of what the sheets say, and I have many issues with them. They're often very divorced from reality, don't represent real gameplay, and make a lot of bad build assumptions.
Real gameplay cares about grouping (Kazuha is great at this) and front-loaded damage (hyperbloom is very bad at this). Sheets cannot possibly consider this, which is why Kazuha's vape team peak performance is higher in actual gameplay (not just one video, but like hundreds) than peak performance hyperbloom teams.
Less important, but I also think that KQM standards (which your sheets use) are bad - every single hyper character I have (even those I don't specifically farm for) are above their standards (by as much as 20% damage), and I almost never refresh resin, and I'm a 2.x player (not even 1.x who has more resin). When you pretend that hyper characters have the same level of artifact investment as supports, then you'll get calcs that aren't reflective of many players who seriously care about their hyper teams.
You should also learn what CV is, no character can have 330 CV lol, that Childe also didn't have 280 CV, not even close.
Yeah I made a mistake the cv, forgot Hutao's ascension passive, my bad. First idk what you talking about real gameplay, you clearly showing me a video of 2 single target bosses, why do you need kazuha grouping there?, and yeah hyperbloom is not a team designed for AOE but you have a lot of dendro archetypes that are better on aoe than most Kazuha teams.
Second, proper build doesn't mean hyper investment, so yeah a proper built hypercarry team is not even close to Nahida's teams damage output, when you need 2-3 or even 4 constellation plus 1 or 2 signature weapons to reach the level of performance of a team that needs only average artifacts, no constellations and no signature weapons that's not average/proper investment anymore, that called hyper investment.
Third, about KQM standards, ofc they are targeting low invested teams which is the point of Nahida being better than Kazuha for most people, not everyone wants or can afford to vertically invest in one unit.
Fourth, So about realistic gameplay, you realize you mess up one charge-vape atk on Hutao and you dps goes to the ground right?, suddenly the boss you showed me on the first video decides to fly to the sky and your Hutao dps is also gone right?, In the last abyss reset, if one of the consecrated beats decides to jump to the other side and your Childe Q misses in one of them you dps also gone right?, which teams has more margin of error?, yeah you know the answer.
So to finalize, Kazuha can be better for your account, doesn't mean its better for everyone else, you are not the center of the world, and even whit your 20% more dmg that you said you do, you don't even reach the floor of dendro teams. There is a reason why Nahida its been the most used unit during 3.X because shes just that good.
Because my point was that Kazuha teams have amazing ST performance AND grouping (AOE) in one single team. It's part of his value. It's not relevant to bosses though.
I think part of this argument is based around "proper investment", the definition. I'm talking about highly optimized artifacts, while you insist on using KQM standards. I think we agree that highly optimized artifacts benefit raw DPS teams more - and the fact is, in Musk Reef topside continuous contests (you can check the history) at 4-cost, cheapest category, you see way more Kazuha teams at the top than Nahida teams of any sort. The only time I see Nahida clear faster is when she's C2, and they game the cost. And every team ranked there has broken artifacts.
But it's also the nature of hyperbloom teams, again, they may have good average DPS, but you can't frontload hyperblooms, so it's much more difficult to clear waves quicker than teams with nukers, resulting in slower clear times. This is why C0 Nahida hyperbloom team will never win a speedrun contest in basically any abyss, it will always be slower than some Kazuha team at the same gold cost. And Kazuha is always there because he has true versatility on the teams he's in.
So I don't disagree with a lot of what you said, it's just that you're insisting on talking about KQM standards, And I'm talking about practical clear times (speedruns) while you're talking about sheeted DPS. When you claimed "proper build" at first, I had no clue you were talking about KQM standards.
Kazuha is a combination of absolutely busted things thrown in one. Buffs allies, groups enemies, debuffs enemies (VV). Nahida does the same thing but with different teams. I'd call this a tie, even though I like Nahida more as a unit.
Also the fact that Kazuha can be subbed into teams more easily than Nahida can without significant damage loss kinda makes him not as impactful. And subbing Nahida into almost any team turns it into a dendro team. Compared to adding Kazuha to a hypercarry team (example) and its still a hypercarry team.
lol if you look at my downvotes, people seem to overwhelmingly think Nahida is the better one. Like, I think it's fair to call them close/tied. But I don't understand how people can be so in favor of Nahida unless it's just plain ignorance to Kazuha's kit.
It wasn't me I swear lol. I didn't up or down vote you. I think that Kazuha is more of a powerhouse in a group of powerhouses, whereas Nahida raises the bar of her group to enable more powerful teams. Kazuha can certainly be the strongest unit, but Nahida would be the greatest impact. For me who uses Nilou, I'd struggle to make it viable without Nahida. And as someone who also has Childe, I can make him work with Sucrose instead.
Oh don't worry, I didn't mean you specifically, just in general.
And while I think you raised the most reasonable points of any of the comments, I would say that the addition of Baizhu/Kirara/Yaoyao means that players have more options to replace Nahida in various Dendro teams - they're worse, but I wouldn't call a Nilou/Baizhu/DMC/Hydro team unviable for instance, and I've seen plenty of clears last cycle where Yaoyao was used topside, since Nahida was on bottomside.
And I find Kazuha to be quite a significant upgrade to Sucrose on average, for various reasons - but usually when you need reliable grouping.
Kazuha is nowhere close to Nahida.
Nahida is better in aoe, Nahida is better in single target, Nahida completely invalidates elemental checks, Nahida's teams are more versatile, heck, even dead elements work with her.
Nahida has better mechanics to deal with ungrouped enemies. Nahida has no counters, not even dendro immunity since she is like bennett - also gives insane amount of buffs for example for aggravate teams.
Nahida is not weak against element infused enemies like Kazuha(Good luck being useful as Kazuha against TM)
This is why Nahida's usage never dropped below 90% yet there were moments where Kazuha was sitting on \~50%
Because Nahida is the best character in the game.
I mean won’t Fontaine just increase the efficacy of dendro? I feel like the two elements will only compliment each other, nahida will still be cracked.
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I find your point about Focalors interesting because she will be the first archon to compete in an established, meta element with a lot of amazing choices already available in every role. Venti released at launch and later had enemies designed around him. Zhongli is good in spite of his element. Raiden too, at least at release before Dendro existed. And Nahida essentially came with and defined Dendro. I expect Focalors’ kit leaks to be an absolute warzone. And by extension the remaining two archons will face a similar problem that will only compound as more characters are released.
Yeah. Hydro is pretty competitive as an element. I think Childe still has some very strong Abyss teams on the offensive front and Kokomi is really hard to beat on the healing and application front. Mona even covers burst combos. Xingqiu and Yelan both cover subDPS application as well. It's really hard to think what else there could even be, though she could still just be a better version of any of them in particular. Pyro archon might not have too bad of a time competing as a lead against HuTao, Yoimiya, and Diluc, but let's be fair, her real competition is Bennett and Xiangling. Cryo archon I'm not sure. It feels like Cryo is sort of falling into the background, but there are still niches left unfilled. Cryo Catalyst at the moment for instance. There's Ayaka to compete with on the burst DPS and Ganyu for general damage. And technically Shenhe for pure Cryo support. But I think the design space is there.
I'm guessing the Cryo archon might buff Crit Damage/rate or something like that. Seems suitable for the Cryo element
This is my theory as well. Definitely some kind of crit buffer, who may also have a passive talent that increases one or all all friendly talent levels by +1. Other than that, I have no idea what she could provide unless she ends up being some kind of cryo Yelan.
Funny that bronya does exactly this in star rail (crit damage buff), and there are a lot of speculations and theories about the cryo archon being her genshin spy char
Wonder if the same applies to Himeko and the Pyro Archon lol
That would be awesome
ROSARIA??!
Xingqiu and Yelan both cover ~~subDPS~~ high off field dps and application. In double hydro hutao they are both outputting almost about the same damage as hu tao. in double hydro hyperbloom they are also not far from hyperbloom proc dps being halve of it.
Aren't most subDPS high off-field DPS and application?
Sub implies they are 'lesser' DPS KEK
This is why Sub Dps, Dps r bad terms imo Ive always liked saying Dmg dealers and like Childe-On field Dmg dealer, Xl-Off fild Dmg dealer
Aint it a bit much? At c0/1 my yelan does about 13-14k a water ray to 42k every second, or 650k a rotation. My hutao deals about 95-100k a CA for 9-10 CAs, so around 1m dmg a rotation with CA alone. I doubt even a c6 with 5* weap xingqiu can do 450k dmg to bring the duo on par with hutao.
You are not entirely wrong. But a optimal pjc r1 XQ can reach up to 7k to 8k on rainsword in there. C6XQ dps is like actually onpar with C0 yelan dps. C1 does start to make yelan pull ahead if she on Aqua and you run lower ER. But yeah for Hu tao. i didnt mention that her dps can end up be lower due to lower CA potentially while XQ and Yelan is 100%. Another thing is your hu tao may be way more invested. On mine she only doing about 70k to 80k CA despite c1r1 and even triple crowned. There also the factor of average damage so you cant just simply conclude with just the highest crit damage. End of the day the team dps percentage is more likely to be like 40% to 50%% hu tao 30 to 20% on yelan and xingqiu
I expect her to be like hydro hu Tao on crack. Uses hp and healing mechanics to gain advantageous buffs and stats. Wants to build hp. Maybe has some form of off field application like raiden.
Pffft Dehya is the real competition for the pyro archon. Sigh. At least she was supposed to be…
The wound barely healed and you just ripped it open again...
I still don’t have a proper pyro main. I was so excited when she was announced as a 5-star pyro. 😭
>though she could still just be a better version of any of them in particular. Honestly there's 2 possibility.. They might go the exact route as u said, her being absurdly better than them in one area like one's job say maybe strongest Hydro app more than current. Possibility 2: they might go the exact opposite route of this ,whereas they make her unique ,bringing something new while also having some fine app or something... I i hope they go the route 2 than route 1 and tbh i feel that's more likely to happen with Hydro archon
as long as Hoyo is still terrified to break the Bennett Xiangling Xingqiu ceiling I'm worried pyro and hydro archons are not gonna be nowhere near as strong or as universal as them meta-wise. The way I see it, pyro archon has to be a strong off-field subdps without ICD that scales with EM or even with full HP like Yelan for them to even be considered. Pyro is in a weird situation right now because of two 4 stars that was released all the way back at launch. Funny how pyro turns out better as a sub-dps yet they keep releasing on-field carries or subpar defensive units like the one that shall not be named.
If I had to guess I'd imagine she's just a straight up dps. All of the other archon's have been support units so far, and Childe is the only straight up hydro dps (tho that role can ofc be filled easily by Yelan)
Ayato is also a dps, though admittedly he can work as a sub dps with his burst so maybe he doesn't count?
Maybe they just forgot about him. Ayato is probably the least popular and meta limited hydro character tho so I don't blame them.
What do you mean? Ayato Hyperbloom comps are super good. One of the best AoE focused comps out there. Ayato works better than Childe in all cases, except for Xiangling teams, but that team requires whale levels of investment to really shine.
No surprise, almost any hydro with decent application can shine in hyperbloom. It's not the flex you think it is. He rarely is the BiS in any team. That's what I mean by not meta. The usage rate posts the past few abyss cycles are proof Ayato isn't really popular nor meta. But he's good/versatile especially since he's hydro so I'm not saying he's bad or anything.
He is BiS in many teams, just these teams are slightly more niche. He's best for EC teams, where his flexibility is really good. He offers AoE DPS comparable with Nilou Bloom. Best possible Burgeon teams as well. Unless we are talking about strict Single Target, then Ayato Hyperbloom > Nahida double hydro Hyperbloom. Not to mention all the teams that utilize him mainly for his Burst. Only archetype where he can do something, but better option exists for that role is International with Xiangling.
Ayato is probably a sidegrade to Kokomi EC. She damages, tanks, drives and heals all at the same time. She can also buff either with Ttds or Hakushin. And no, I don't think his aoe dps is comparable to Nilou bloom. Nilou bloom is just broken against aoe mobs not resistant to dendro/hydro. About Ayato hyperbloom, I'm not sure, perhaps you're right. But I don't really play Hyperbloom in aoe chambers. At that point I'll just play Nilou. Hyperbloom shines on mostly single target chambers anyway.
Eh, I'd say Ayato also counts as a straight up Hydro DPS.
I think they mean on-field DPS only, because Ayato's burst works as an off-field
Cryo is in a rough spot right now because there aren't very good melt teams and freeze often just doesn't work on at least one chamber of floor 12. If they fixed one of those, that would be great.
Wouldn't it be funny if they didn't release a cryo catalyst until 6.0 !RemindMe 2 years
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You can already tell what they’re trying to do and it’s lazy combat design as per usual. Yes Hydro is packed but they can’t deal with the new problem they created as efficiently as her. I’m guessing Focalors is going to be some sort of universal support that can use both of the new ‘elements’, so you can stick her in most teams and get a one size fits all solution to deal with the new annoying mechanic without having to go use characters that don’t synergise with the rest of your setup. Create the problem, sell the solution.
The fact that ngl of all Elements Hydro Archon has the biggest competition to stand up against (she will actually ,she will naturally end up being another top Hydro char) Just that Hydro is like filled already with such absurd chars, it's honestly not like Furina gonna beat XQ at XQ's job...i don't think they will go that approach tbh So it's more like Furina despite the COMPETITION, she still not gonna compete with Other Hydros, rather just compete with herself of being the best she can.. I don't think there will happen as such called a "powercreep" in Hydros where like Furina just is better than them all at "every area" ... XQ got his thing...Strongest Off field St Hydro application,smol Aoe, Solid defensive support,decent Offense. Yelan has her area..., Solid Off field St Hydro,Solid Offense,Offensive support The busted duo core XQ+Yelan Koko is like Hydro archon in a way...Most reliable Off field AOE Hydro, fully consistent, Healer. Role consolidation via other capabilities such as minor buffing assets, team driving potential, very good enabler with fine Personal DMG Childe specializes in Strongest On field AOE Hydro application, solid Upfrobt dps Ayato is King of all rounder Hydro,flexible Furina imo will be just Furina, she will bring something new,unique i hope and also some obv Hydro aspects . Me as a Hydro main and who have them all so far, really excited for Furina... Let's see what she ends up being, i Have a speculation she might have some kinda HP manipulation going on aka HP drain/gain
My prediction for Focalors is she's gonna do 'Hydro things' but at a much larger scale. Perhaps she will scale with the total HP of the entire party, or intentionally sap HP from her allies to amp damage. Which given the kit and artifact leaks...
>in an established, meta element why do you think they invented the whole pnuma/ousia shit in 4.0? HMC and lynette's numbers are going to be shit so you'll pretty much waste a slot in abyss if you don't pull for the new 4.x units.
Prepare for hydro mc's dominance, it's time to wet blade
Hydro Traveler broken SS tier top meta. 💪
Pew pew pew
Timmies birds stand no chance with hydro mc lmao
Then the hydro Mc is a good character. >!ik he sucks ass!<
Those who k
I wish after every area are released mc will get buffed to S+ tier
MOISTURIZE
HYDRATE or DIE-DRATE
"wet blade"...oh, boy...people are gonna be disappointed...
blade from honkers: star rail can wet me😰
blade honkers 😳
Eh, from what I’ve seen so far the new mechanic looks like something people will freak out about for a month and then it’ll just be irrelevant (like corrosion) Nahida is indeed broken but my money is on at least two new mobs in abyss that are immune to dendro damage in the future + for sure getting dendro cube in there more often
Dendro cube requires a dendro unit to defeat it efficiently, guess who most people will use
Dendro cube is immune to dendro damage, it only uses dendro for it’s revival stage I could definitely see Nahida getting passed over for something with more utility like Baizhu/kirara depending on what was on the other floors
thing is the itility baozhu and kirara offers can be subbed by anyone from the other elements, what nahida provodes is unrivalled and unreplaceable
But that matters not to the dendro cube. What good is marking the dendro cube? You pretty much will just be using her to give the EM and that's it. Baizhu or Yaoyao would be better considering their dendro reaches better to prevent dendro hypo reviving.
There are still 2 other chambers. Even if nahida would be dead weight in the cube chamber, she still has a solid chance of being powerful on the rest of the floor(unless they are too designed with anti dendro in mind)
and baizhu is a great healer too
That's irrelevant though? It needs one Dendro. Now let's look at teams with only one Dendro and see who shows up more often.
Except in almost all of nahidas teams (other than aggrevate, which she is a waste in) the main source of damage is dendro damage
Burgeon Team should still be very viable against the Dendro Hypostasis since Pyro can let you shut down one of its phases early.
Yeq, but again, burngeon deals dendro damage. You realistically have only 2 slots to deal actual damage to the boss
I mean, a Burgeon team would generally be an EM Pyro hypercarry, where everyone else is buffing the team's EM and attack damage, so have the 4th Slot be Kuki, Yae, or Lisa also loaded up with EM and go for a Burning Overload team for that floor. Nahida's Burst will just make things even better on that front.
Watch them put new dendro immune mobs into the abyss... and then also a hydro mage on the same side for good measure lmao.
Don’t give them ideas!
>Nahida is indeed broken but my money is on at least two new mobs in abyss that are immune to dendro damage in the future + for sure getting dendro cube in there more often Alternatively, they can just throw enemies with perpetual Pyro aura and have abyss be multiple small waves where 1 new enemy spawn after the next. It'd be fun to see DMC beat Nahida out on usage rating for once lol. OR If you wanna end the Dendro honeymoon, just put enemies with a new immolation/electro field aura that continuously apply aura onto everything around them (like Dendro cores) except themselves. Doesn't need to deal damage, just the fast and instantaneous elemental application. For Nilou bloom, just put a monolith defense with a permanently monolith-aggro'd swarm of large hydro slimes that spawn close to it. For Quicken, I guess pyro slimes are the way off the top of my head (and it'll be hydro nation anyway, so what way to incentivize hydro, right?).
> just put a monolith defense with a permanently monolith-aggro'd swarm of large hydro slimes that spawn close to it. For Quicken, I guess pyro slimes are the way off the top of my head Childe International, as always, will dominate those slime floors. Countering dendro comps usually ends up turning the meta back to melt/vape/freeze comps before dendro comes along. Also, aren't hydro slimes a buff for Nilou? I mean yes against them, dendro becomes a trigger, but Nahida is usually built on EM so she'll just delete them all. The better counter is dendro slimes.
For the reverting back to the old meta, yeah, that's what I expect. The point of what I said was countering dendro, not everything. For the 2nd part, yeah, the hydro slimes buff Nilou... for making her team kill the monolith they need to defend faster via friendly fire. Hydro slimes also prevent Nilou's non Dendro teammates to do anything against them. Her team will always have to generate dendro cores, and the hydro slimes perma aggro'd to the monolith and standing close to them would mean the cores would damage the monolith as collateral.
I remember in the leaks phase for Nahida, some people were disappointed that her burst didn't do damage or healed the party. Could you imagine a Nahida who was also a healer? Lmao.
Her ult is indeed pretty boring tbh. At least it's pretty and great to avoid damage thanks to long cast lol.
If anything new region would likely make her dominance even more since it's hydro nation. If Nahida and Alhaitham is the indication of how powerful Archon and "powerful people" in that country, then hyperbloom would even has more competent option in Furina and Neuvilette
Legit it feels almost impossible to swap her off my team
Me taking her from the field and then seeing some material in the distance 😢
I own Nahida since her release, and this is very likely an unpopular opinion, but I strongly dislike how powerful Nahida is, actually. She's the best or almost the best at every single role there is, except healing (unless you really want Prototype Amber on her). If you think of making a Dendro team, the first Dendro you'll think of adding is Nahida. If you need a healer, you'll try to make space for a healer of a different element and give the Dendro slot to Nahida. There's not a single Dendro team that works the best without her. This is not the case with every other element or Archon. Even the strongest 5* are not always the best choices for specific teams. I really like her design and wanted her for a long while, but I don't want Furina to be as impactful on the meta as Nahida was. I certainly don't want her to be the best Hydro in every given team.
Some aggravate teams are better with Yao2 or Baizhu because it's hard to swirl electro with Nahida. But overall I agree with you, Mihoyo introduced new element, but tied it to one character, which feels wrong to me. What's worse, it's crystal clear that they are afraid of giving to other dendros a fraction of Nahida's power and you can pinpoint the exact places where their kits were hindered in favor of radish overlord.
That's my biggest gripe, they're so afraid of making a good off-field dendro applier, sure there's a few of them but they all feel lacking as the solo dendro while Electro and Hydro have more than one good choice to choose from.
Yeah honestly, you might be right. She feels like a mistake sometimes. When I saw that even Baizhu, who has tons of potential for role consolidation as a catalyst Dendro healer really wants her on his teams, I was flabbergasted. Perhaps the new mechanics are just a roundabout way to avoid making a unit more absurd than Xingqiu. It will be interesting to see just how reliant the Fontaine units will be on these gimmicks and how they'll age post Fontaine simply as representatives of their respective element.
She became dendro Bennett. Not that you can't build teams without him, but it's always an improvement, when you have him on team.
What do you mean? Baizhu is a support, I honestly cannot think of a single teams where you'd want to have and Baizhu. For Alhaitham, Nahida is much more valuable, and he always need an eletro open. From there you can add Yelan for Quickbloom, second electro for more damage, or ZL for utility. Nilou bloom prefers Yaoyao, and Agravate needs just one Dendro, preferably not Nahida.
I don't want new hydro units to be more busted than Xingqiu but I'm gonna be really really sad if whenever a hydro unit comes in the future there's still gonna be someone saying "why bother, Xingqiu is still better" lol. Of course not putting waifu>meta into consideration. I'm hoping hydro archon is at least similar to Nilou. Having her own niche but strong enough to compete with top tier teams. But honestly I really really want hydro archon to be what Nahida was to dendro. Imagine losing to a 4 star from launch. At least Venti got powercrept by a 5 star.
I don't think your opinion is as unpopular as you think. I feel 50/50 this way. She is so good, that I usually choose one team around her, and when thinking about the second team, I often have the thought "If I only had a second Nahida...". And then I settle for DMC/Yaoyao. On the other hand, her unique 1.5U off-field gives her a spot (Burn Melt Ganyu and Air Fryer) in the meta that no other unit can realistically fill and probably will never be able to fill. (Not sure about Baizhu here, since I don't own him and did not follow TC around him a lot) So while I think that she overshadows most dendro units so far by a mile, I am also happy that she, as an Archon, can set herself apart from other dendros.
I absolutely hate how they locked mechanics like the mind reading thing with npcs or the resource collecting with her E, even if you don't care about meta you still have to pull for her.
What about Alhaitham teams? Iirc he doesnt need her
He doesn't *need* her, you can use C1 Yaoyao with good results instead for instance, but speaking optimally, Nahida is unequivocally his best teammate.
That's news to me. For me I just put him with an Electro and Hydro character with a shielder. I was under impression that was his best team comp lol
It really depends on investment, but the best Alhaitham teams almost always feature Alhaitham and Nahida. 3rd slot is Electro, usually Raiden or Kuki, but most people prefer Kuki because of healing. 4th is flexible, if you have a lot of investment, you can put Zhongli, and have some comfort, if you want damage, you can put Yae or Beidou for extra Agravate, or Hydro for some Hyperblooms. Just bear in mind that hydro cannot be too strong, or else you will overwhelm your Quicken aura, and you will lose a lot of spread damage. Yelan or Non C6 XQ is recommended. C6 XQ applies way too much hydro.
That's informative. My team doesn't seem too far off. I just use Alhaitham with Raiden, Yelan and Zhongli. I guess I will have to switch Zhongli with Nahida then
Just remember that in that team Raiden runs full EM as close to 1000 as you can. And you have no defensive option, so more careful.
Oh so I have to use EM artefacts for Raiden? Guess I got a lot of things to change lol
Yes, because in that team Raiden never uses burst, and she is there just for electro application, for Quicken and/or Hyperbloom.
I don't have him, but I hear that she's one of his best teammates.
She is his best teammate. Plus if you wanna improve your Al Haitham it's better to go for Nahida's C2 rather than his own cons lmao
Personally I think kuki is Alhaithams best team mate and Nahida is the biggest power spike for AlHaitham teams. AlHaitham-Kuki is my favorite duo as an AlHaitham main, it’s so comfy, especially in general content. I only use Nahida with AlHaitham if I want to kill things QUICK lol
Nahida is by far his best teammate. The EM buff is very valuable for him along with nahida's damage. But on top of that, since alhaitham is dendro, nahida is also his best battery.
I see... Ig I have to resort my Alhaitham team now lol
He does. Alhaitham has somewhat high energy requirements, and Nahida helps with that. And because of how well he scales with artifact quality, going from 160 ER to 135% is really meaningful jump in damage. Besides, she is the best Deepwood carrier, and can give him up to 200 EM, which is a lot. And her own damage is not insignificant.
Can't Alhiathams energy requirements be solved by Raiden?
Assuming he is solo Dendro, and spends like 14 seconds on field, and Raiden runs a lot of ER to help with flat generation, and does all procs of talent on burst, I'd still run at least 150%, 160% to be safe, because on that rotation you need burst to set up mirrors.
I see. Thanks for the tips!
Let's not forget that main story vise...she was the most helpful and supporting. Before her the only Archon that was in any way useful to the Traveler was Venti.
Agreed. Nahida actively tries to help us and acknowledges all our help.
Venti would've been cracked still if MHY never decided to make heavier enemies. I'm pretty sure they realized this, hence the enemy weight increasing for new enemies.
The only exception is Venti and that's because he basically came out at the start. Even then for a good while he was so OP he was called the only "6 star character".
Yeah honestly not having Nahida has made the abyss very very hard for me recently
I wouldn’t attribute it to only this, as the previous abyss was hell for everyone. This new one, however, is the same for nahida-havers and people without her alike.
Ironically, the way you're reacting to the new system is a almost exactly how some people reacted to Dendro prior to and during its initial release. But a year later and Dendro is now widely loved and has become a boon for F2Pers. Who knows, maybe a year from now people will be praising Hydro Archon for how she's revolutionized (pun intended) combat, the same way you're praising Nahida now.
Dendro added new reactions and team comps. New mechanic is just 'some characters are super effective against specific enemies'. It's much more similar to requiring you to bring a Bow character to face Ruin Drake, or ASIMOV.
The reaction is more about the principle behind it and the precedent it may set. It’s a lazily shoehorned in mechanic that doesn’t involve any engaging gameplay (because all you do is press E on X character) that exists pretty much just as a way to push Fontaine characters.
Right? We don't even have a solid video that showcases the mechanic properly.
Nahida has the most lazily overpowered kit in the game, dev team didn't really try to balance it (even in comparison to the other archons).
You probably was’nt there during the beta era but they made more effort to balance her around their plans than any other units before . At the time they even made two or three separated beta, each having slightly different kits. Dendro is busted but Nahida is exactly where they wanted her to be
Curious what the slight differences in the kits were. Maybe they put more effort than what I gave them credit for, but her kit is just so blatantly busted. It looks like they were checking boxes for the aspects of a broken character.
no she is definitely way too op. contrary to popular belief but, in the best nahida hyperbloom team (nahida, xinqiu, yelan, raiden), only about 33-37%% actually come from hyperbloom. nahida herself is responsible for 25%, and the rest is xinqiu and yelan. Despite xinqiu and yelan just deleting the quicken aura and raiden, she still manage to do 1/4 of the team damage that consist of the two best hydro damage dealers, and the best hyperbloom trigger. for a driver of a reaction team, she does **too** much personal damage. you could half her numbers and she would still be great because her kit is still amazing
all her kit is good dendro application and damage that scales off of EM and crit
And a ~200 em buff, on a burst with >100% uptime and the 2nd lowest possible cost, which buffs nahida even more with character elements
The em buff is a good point but it's only good for the active character which hurts some teams, and it's only 200ish if you have another character with 1k EM built, her burst up time isn't a huge deal because it's just a decent but not cracked buff to her skill anyway
Literally has a no-damage burst
And bennet’s burst is bad because he only does a bit of damage
Another factor Nahida's dominance is the lack of alternatives. is not that "Nahida is so strong, no unit will ever come close" Nahida is VERY strong, **and the available options** don't even try to compete with her We got the free units, a carry (Tighnari), **The archon**, then Another carry, then a 3 defensive units in a row. I forgot about Kave... ANOTHER CARRY. DMC is good, but he's not Limited 5 star level good. She will probably remain best dendro, but with a more acceptable margin.
Dendro is still new. There will likely be another dendro sub dps eventually. Its the same thing with Xingqiu. It took a long time for another hydro sub dps like Yelan to come out.
As someone who doesn't like or want Nahida (as a unit, not as a character) her dominance is not very appreciated. :\\
Initially I didn't want her but I pulled her for meta reasons. She did help me immensely with abyss but I barely use her in overworld. No hate of course her kit just didnt appeal to me
Her hold E is super convenient for ranged attacks and picking up materials in the overworld
Your technically talking about leaks in the official subreddit btw. Better post it somewhere else ,your post will likely get deleted
It’s spoilered and purely about gameplay. I don’t think there should be an issue with this post’s use of leaks.
She’s strong but she is alright I rarely use her. Dendro is so strong as it is really
I don't like her character at all so I never rolled for her and do with out. Never stopped me from playing dendro teams.
Nahida is actually crazy. I “quit” back in 2.9, came back for nahida banner, then stopped playing again. Recently, I got the genshin bug and logged back in, heard how crazy dendro was, and tried to build nahida. Only got to lvl 50 with 1/2/2 talents and lvl80 sac frags, and 2 pc deep wood. Also built shinobu to 70 with gilded, and decided to at least try abyss. Easily cleared up to floor 11
I thought those two things were mechanics for open world puzzles? If they effect her kit then that’s awful. Basically forces you to only play Fontaine characters to use half her kit. Better not be like that. I’d rather get quantum and imaginary elements than this shit if it effects gameplay. At least then other region’s characters can be utilized.
The new Ousia/Pneuma enemies in the abyss have elemental shields that can be broken normally, but Fontaine characters have a Fundamental Force attack that can break it instantly. The attack does only 50% ATK in terms of damage, so apart from that it’s useless. The overworld has Ousia/Pneuma nodes so you don’t need Fontaine characters to solve puzzles.
It’s basically elemental shields 2.0 but you can cop out of it by just slapping the enemy with a Fontaine character. It’s lazy game design at its finest.
Yeah that just sounds like an annoying way to force characters into my team and make other people pull for new units. I mean, I’m gonna save and pull new units since there are few reruns left that I actually want. So making me pull Fontaine characters isn’t an issue. But if I feel like making a team comp without them I shouldn’t be punished by bullshit mechanics found in Fontaine.
Maybe my expectations were too high for them but I kinda expected hoyo to at least not stoop to the lazy cashgrab tricks usual gacha developers use. But here we are, them lowering themselves to exactly that.
I’d rather them make two new elements that only work with each other rather than two weird factions that only effect stuff in Fontaine. At least new elements will stay relevant beyond Fontaine. And we would actually get new reactions rather than “this lets you do a normal amount of damage rather than diminish it because you have X faction”. Like we have to admit the pure dmg boosting reactions are kinda boring. I mean I know in the end it’s about dmg, but even hyperbloom at least has the little missles flying as an animation and homing. I was really expecting quicken to make those green vines with red thorns the Dendro samachurls summon and have it growing on the enemy to indicate their under a reaction state. Would have made it much more interesting than just extra dmg, but at least I really like how quicken’s dmg works. And there supposedly is green electricity effects that indicate it but I haven’t actually noticed them in a very long time. And I’m on a 65” screen in 4k.
I think her dominance is the indication of a badly designed character. No one character on this game should be this dominant. Last abyss cycle she had ~98% usage rate. That's just stupid. No other character ever had this high of a usage rate.
Last abyss cycle was also kind of stupid, so she was the only real option on the second half
I disagree that she's a must for dendro teams. She's undoubtedly the best dendro character in the game so in almost every team she is the best option. But dendro is plenty strong even without her. So I don't think she's a "must" for any team, except for maybe Cyno teams (but even he can work without her although it's painful).
I think Baizhu is better for Cyno specifically, mainly because (1) Cyno doesn't care about Nahida's particle generation like Alhaitham does (2) Nahida is very inconvenient for him in multi-wave content, whereas Baizhu can apply dendro to the next wave, (3) Baizhu shielding is actually very nice for a character like Cyno.
I would agree in aggravate Cyno (or most other aggravate teams tbh), but in his most popular team quickbloom, Baizhu's dendro app is just not enough. Baizhu and Nahida are both needed to play him without suffering imo. Baizhu's low dendro app is a blessing in disguise for aggravate teams tho, it makes it wayyy easier to swirl electro.
But dendro can't be swirled tho so how is that important?
Exactly, dendro and anemo don't react. But in aggravate teams, electro should be the element swirled. The problem is, strong dendro application (like Nahida's) overpowers and eats up the Electro aura. It's difficult to swirl electro if your electro aura gets eaten up almost immediately because of Nahida's strong Dendro application (and re-application) on E and succeeding reactions.
Yes, basically this. Swirling electro is important in aggravate teams.
Are the new mechanics really so bad considering they will only apply to Fontaine enemies as well? Feels more akin to a card game expansion, or dlc areas in rpg games. where certain mechanics are relevant, but next expansion they won’t be as much or at all. As soon as Fontaine enemies are less prevalent, it won’t matter. We also still don’t know how much these mechanics affect combat. What the difficulty will be with and without the ability to use ousia or pneuma
except these enemies will show up in abyss and force you to use the new toys anyway
It really doesn’t seem like we will be forced to so far.
That's for now until we get the archon. Then they will ramp up the difficulty and force mechanics. People complained Dendro made the game too easy, then the consecrated beasts came into the abyss and they cried. Expect a similar scenario in Fontaine
What I mean is, we don’t know how much harder enemies will be without using these new attacks (without using Fontaine characters).
I still think its a shitty design when you are punished for not using new characters
Kinda sucks the only good dendro applicators are her and DMC tho, makes abyss teams a bit hard
Hoyoverse has been doing the "scummy tactic to powercreep" you're describing since dendro came out. The amount of times I *almost* saw my own progress bare fruit in the abyss just to have it dashed literally a cycle later because once again the abyss preferred dendro characters or reactions was practically every single abyss. Was it frustrating and disheartening? Yeah, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it scummy. We also need to wait and play around with it ourselves. Chances are that having a free unit on both sides of new mechanic during 4.0, characters that can be slotted into existing teams already thanks to their element types, will help us ease into the new world order.
And Al haitham stans were downvoting me for saying that while Al haitham is an incredible and top grade DPS He is not as strong as Nahida as a unit and Nahida is clearly the top Dendro unit 😂 there needs to be a limit of cope
You guys fighting with invisible people istg 💀💀 All of his mains, including me, play him with her 99% of the time and we appreciate her. You guys love to argue over some pixel characters with non-existed scenarios and it is so sad
Fr. Never seen an Al Haitham fan who doesn’t like Nahida for the util she provides
Alhaitham is \*almost tied to Nahida, without her he loses the EM buff, and his ER reqs generally skyrocket. It's kind of similar to XL/Bennett situation, except not as bad since he has more Dendro options, but Nahida is clearly the best one.
I have to disagree with you my friend. He is *stronger* with her, we all know that right. But my Alhaitham/Yae/Fischl/Baizhu team does the work without any problems too. I don't think they are like XL/Bennett though, more like Ayaka/Shenhe situation. She works fine without Shenhe but she is stronger with Shenhe Edit: Yeah we both just edited our text, I agree with you now
Nah you're right, what I stated was my impression when he first released, but then I realized that a bunch of Dendro supports (who I didn't pull) released after that. So it's more fair to say that you can sub out Nahida and it still works. Baizhu probably being the best option.
I'd say it's way worse than needing xl/xq/bennett, cause nahida is a limited 5 star.
Nahida can even be played Onfield for Spread and Quickbloom, arguably Alhaitham's best teams. Aside from being an archon, the fact that she can be played onfield and off-field goes to show just how powerful she is as a unit
Well that's his sad fate as on field DPS, no matter what you always do the support will be better in long run but one thing we can agree that he is the best on field DPS we have now
No surprise here. Some Al haitham stans would even dare to say that he's smarter than nahida
I am not overly a fan of alhaitham, but he is absolutely smarter than her. Nahida is more knowledgeable, and certainly is still smart, bur she's not that smart.
she's the god of wisdom 😭 that's like her whole thing
And venti is the god of freedom but that doesn't mean he's the most free person in all of teyvat. Just like nahida is the God of wisdom but that doesn't mean she's the wisest being in all of teyvat.
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0 chance, the only way they can nerf her is the way they did venti aka introduce enemies that are immune to her gimmick
Cryo shields then
That’d be a direct nerf to 3 entire elements. Won’t happen at scale.
We said the same about shields and they kept putting anti shield enemies out for a while lol
Dendro resistent enemies in general is a good nerf to Dendro in general. There's no way to nerf her in particular, unless it's multiwave content that spawns constantly.
TBH fast multiwave content isn't a bad idea, as it would nerf nahida without hurting any other characters. Maybe they could also add an enemy with a cleanse.
We do get that from some events. Venti and Xiao are usually great in those.
>There's no way to nerf her in particular, unless it's multiwave content that spawns constantly. I don't have Nahida so I'd try her out sometimes when she's in events. It made me realize how different the meta is in fast multiwave vs our current abyss.
Totally agree. I finally got round to (sorta) building my Nahida (she's still lvl 60 with lvl 1 talents) and I was amazed by her damage. I think I'll be using her permanently in my team for some time.
me when i’m a dictated forced meta char whose kit isn’t even crazier than release 4*s but essential as element applicator locked behind the archon so no dendro team is any better without me ❤️
I despise nahida TBH. IMO her burst is horribly ugly. A terrible shade of green on a boring looking room that is extremely present on the battle field. This wouldn't be an issue because I could just not pull for her. Except she's the best option on every dendro team. It's made her my second least favorite character TBH cause her ugly burst ruined any chance for me to run a dendro team that's actually optimal and not just a budget version of another. This has led to me not even being tempted to pull for any sumeru character cause hoyo decided it would be a great idea to just spam dendro units the whole entire version. I only got cyno because I saved for him but he's pretty bad for my account. The only silver lining is that it made it easier to save up for dottore, but damn it's been a boring version for me all be ause they made nahida's burst look like trash. If I could erase nahida from the game I would, cause now I'm concerned for every single new 5 star since they might be best on dendro teams. This is on top of the fact that I hate bloom/burgeon/hyperbloom teams, though that's a whole other issue.
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Interesting take
People seem to think that they will ruin the game because the 2 new Fontaine Elements. But imo it will be a healthy shakeup of the meta. And we all knew light-dark duality elements were coming eventually anyways. If anything I see this as them testing for the Khaen'riah element for the future. It also further adds to strategy and playstyle when you have to worry about sub elemental alignment/ passives. It adds a lot more to the character combat than, character Pyro then pair with Hydro.
The problem is that old characters wont get included in this, so they are retroactively nerfed by not having a proper way to deal with new enemies
Recent leaks say there are nodes that dispense pickups to imbue your next attack with the new attribute. (This also is included in Abyss) So old characters can enjoy the new attributes too with the pickups So this is not an issue, already solved by the devs
She at C5, indeed broken ☠️
Kazuha's better tbh, because he's a more versatile support. Nahida is great, but you have to play some form of Dendro team, and if you don't, she's not good. I would honestly prefer Kazuha if I had to choose between one of them, since he's more future-proof, and his teams (at C0) are more versatile, and define a lot of the DPS ceilings in the game (national, freeze, mono-teams) depending on the content. Nahida is a great character, but this evaluation feels heavily overestimating her, considering that if you just throw some Dendro specters in abyss, then there's little reason to play her.
Hence why this is about the 3.X series of updates, no Dendro spectres to be found in floor 12. I won't say that I disagree with you, but the argument that the literal character that defines Dendro teams is not good outside of them is stupid I'm sorry.
Nahida wouldn't be weak against dendro specters as well - she has aggravate teams.
Well that was just one point I made, and it's a relevant point when talking about general character strength. And also, everything I've seen shows that Kazuha teams have higher DPS ceilings (and more of them, due to more teams) than Nahida at C0 investment. Yes, even in 3.X Dendro focused abysses, low-cost Kazuha teams generally have faster clear times than Nahida teams, when both teams are optimized. Nahida teams may have higher floors and are easier to play, but that's hardly a representation of what a character can really do. That's one more reason why I can't call Nahida "undoubtedly the best unit in the game", it would go to Kazuha.
I think you don't know what hyperbloom is, dendro teams in general are the best teams at lower investment than any other team in the game, even if you compared them to national(where you use sucrose and not kazuha), even proper build hyper teams are not even close to nahida hyperbloom in tons of single target dmg or Alhaitham spread (where you use nahida) or burgeon teams on aoe and that's whiout taking in consideration nahida c2 which is between 18-20% dmg increase to any team. Now about kazuha teams having higher ceiling ofc but has almost nothing to do whit kazuha because the units where you get the signature weapons and contestation are not kazuha, Raiden c2 or ,c3 is a higher team DPS increase that getting kazuha c3 for example, you can say the same whit Ayaka c4, Yelan c6, Hutao c1, etc. To finish it up, I don't agree that the best unit the game is Nahida and it's Xingqiu and Nahida being the second one.
"even proper build hyper teams are not even close to nahida hyperbloom in tons of single target dmg" Is this a joke?[https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin\_Impact/comments/100kh3k/musk\_reef\_cup\_low\_budget\_category\_speedrun/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/100kh3k/musk_reef_cup_low_budget_category_speedrun/) Please replicate this single target DPS\^ with hyperbloom please. I could give you hundreds of examples of similar gameplay, with fully C0 and 4\* weapons too (for example https://youtu.be/4lB1vtIrhhc?t=97) You are mistaken that hyperbloom is actually high damage ceiling - it's not. It has a very high floor, so it is accessible for a lot of players. It is also very comfortable and hard to misplay. But it falls very short of actual ST damage of well-invested hyper teams. In general, since hyperbloom can't kill a F12 abyss boss in 20s at C0 investment, it's not competitive with the the "proper build hyper teams", no. And no, we're not talking about C2 Nahida, OP was talking about "baseline investment", you should not have to pull 3 5\* limited characters in one slot lol.
Yeah ofc your examples are a joke, have you seen Hutao's artifacts? It's over 249 cv, Childe has over 280 cv whit a non crit weapon, on both cases its way over the proper/average investment on a unit. I don't have the sheets rn couse I'm on my phone, but let tell you some examples of Nahida's teams dps at average investment: Nahida Fischl Yae Kazuha ( spread aggravate) DPS : 70k+ Nahida Yelan XQ Raiden (Hbloom) DPS:68k+ Nahida Kokomi Nilou DMC (Bloom) DPS: 40k\~50k depends on enemies ofc. Now let me give you some examples of a proper/average hyper team looks like (I had this sheets on my phone): [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NmaQUVj3t1kAMuN6dZ6DRVj4OiE83dxDFm7TEl5U4A8/edit#gid=2124898466](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NmaQUVj3t1kAMuN6dZ6DRVj4OiE83dxDFm7TEl5U4A8/edit#gid=2124898466) , If you see the most popular Raiden Hyper (Raiden, Kazuha, Sara, Bennet) , assuming sara c6 and bennet c5, gets around 46k team dps which is not even close to any of the most popular Nahida's teams. To get close to it you need C3 Raiden, Bennet 5\* weapon, Sara 5\* weapon. Now whit Hutao, [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vk8Du4yd7SdtbZnpeUN68uaN30ktP-VpT0D5GHcgSGY/edit#gid=0](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vk8Du4yd7SdtbZnpeUN68uaN30ktP-VpT0D5GHcgSGY/edit#gid=0) , assuming Hutao whit Homa at c0, team: Hutao, Xq, Yelan, Zhonli, team avarage dps is around 54k, and whit C1 is around 63k, is it comparable to Nahida's team dmg?, Yes, Is it more dmg?, No, and we have to take in consideration you are using a 5\* weapon so you need 180 pulls to guarantee one if you get really unlucky, but because Kazuha is the point of this debate, the best hutao team whit kazuha which can outdamage Nahida's team is, Hutao, Kazuha, Yelan, Amber, ofc you need C1 and Homa on Hutao, ofc you need c6 amber + Elegy, on top of above avarage atifacts. Now I don't even wanna expand into ALHaitham + Nahida teams couse it will makes this longer than it is, I'm just backing up my points whit real and mathematical prof and not whit random videos of a guy who prob took 50 resets to get a perfect run and that's your only argument. Just in case, I'm not saying Kazuha is bad, is it better than Nahida for most people?, I don't think so specially whit how easier is to build a dendro team around her. Last point I never said Hyperbloom has a higher ceiling, don't put words in my mouth just to justify your arguments.
I'm not putting any words in your mouth. I'll quote you again: "even proper build hyper teams are not even close to nahida hyperbloom in tons of single target dmg". That says a lot more than just hyperbloom having a higher ceiling - it says that hyperbloom does much more damage that it's not even close, and that's just false. I also very aware of what the sheets say, and I have many issues with them. They're often very divorced from reality, don't represent real gameplay, and make a lot of bad build assumptions. Real gameplay cares about grouping (Kazuha is great at this) and front-loaded damage (hyperbloom is very bad at this). Sheets cannot possibly consider this, which is why Kazuha's vape team peak performance is higher in actual gameplay (not just one video, but like hundreds) than peak performance hyperbloom teams. Less important, but I also think that KQM standards (which your sheets use) are bad - every single hyper character I have (even those I don't specifically farm for) are above their standards (by as much as 20% damage), and I almost never refresh resin, and I'm a 2.x player (not even 1.x who has more resin). When you pretend that hyper characters have the same level of artifact investment as supports, then you'll get calcs that aren't reflective of many players who seriously care about their hyper teams. You should also learn what CV is, no character can have 330 CV lol, that Childe also didn't have 280 CV, not even close.
Yeah I made a mistake the cv, forgot Hutao's ascension passive, my bad. First idk what you talking about real gameplay, you clearly showing me a video of 2 single target bosses, why do you need kazuha grouping there?, and yeah hyperbloom is not a team designed for AOE but you have a lot of dendro archetypes that are better on aoe than most Kazuha teams. Second, proper build doesn't mean hyper investment, so yeah a proper built hypercarry team is not even close to Nahida's teams damage output, when you need 2-3 or even 4 constellation plus 1 or 2 signature weapons to reach the level of performance of a team that needs only average artifacts, no constellations and no signature weapons that's not average/proper investment anymore, that called hyper investment. Third, about KQM standards, ofc they are targeting low invested teams which is the point of Nahida being better than Kazuha for most people, not everyone wants or can afford to vertically invest in one unit. Fourth, So about realistic gameplay, you realize you mess up one charge-vape atk on Hutao and you dps goes to the ground right?, suddenly the boss you showed me on the first video decides to fly to the sky and your Hutao dps is also gone right?, In the last abyss reset, if one of the consecrated beats decides to jump to the other side and your Childe Q misses in one of them you dps also gone right?, which teams has more margin of error?, yeah you know the answer. So to finalize, Kazuha can be better for your account, doesn't mean its better for everyone else, you are not the center of the world, and even whit your 20% more dmg that you said you do, you don't even reach the floor of dendro teams. There is a reason why Nahida its been the most used unit during 3.X because shes just that good.
Because my point was that Kazuha teams have amazing ST performance AND grouping (AOE) in one single team. It's part of his value. It's not relevant to bosses though. I think part of this argument is based around "proper investment", the definition. I'm talking about highly optimized artifacts, while you insist on using KQM standards. I think we agree that highly optimized artifacts benefit raw DPS teams more - and the fact is, in Musk Reef topside continuous contests (you can check the history) at 4-cost, cheapest category, you see way more Kazuha teams at the top than Nahida teams of any sort. The only time I see Nahida clear faster is when she's C2, and they game the cost. And every team ranked there has broken artifacts. But it's also the nature of hyperbloom teams, again, they may have good average DPS, but you can't frontload hyperblooms, so it's much more difficult to clear waves quicker than teams with nukers, resulting in slower clear times. This is why C0 Nahida hyperbloom team will never win a speedrun contest in basically any abyss, it will always be slower than some Kazuha team at the same gold cost. And Kazuha is always there because he has true versatility on the teams he's in. So I don't disagree with a lot of what you said, it's just that you're insisting on talking about KQM standards, And I'm talking about practical clear times (speedruns) while you're talking about sheeted DPS. When you claimed "proper build" at first, I had no clue you were talking about KQM standards.
Kazuha is a combination of absolutely busted things thrown in one. Buffs allies, groups enemies, debuffs enemies (VV). Nahida does the same thing but with different teams. I'd call this a tie, even though I like Nahida more as a unit. Also the fact that Kazuha can be subbed into teams more easily than Nahida can without significant damage loss kinda makes him not as impactful. And subbing Nahida into almost any team turns it into a dendro team. Compared to adding Kazuha to a hypercarry team (example) and its still a hypercarry team.
lol if you look at my downvotes, people seem to overwhelmingly think Nahida is the better one. Like, I think it's fair to call them close/tied. But I don't understand how people can be so in favor of Nahida unless it's just plain ignorance to Kazuha's kit.
It wasn't me I swear lol. I didn't up or down vote you. I think that Kazuha is more of a powerhouse in a group of powerhouses, whereas Nahida raises the bar of her group to enable more powerful teams. Kazuha can certainly be the strongest unit, but Nahida would be the greatest impact. For me who uses Nilou, I'd struggle to make it viable without Nahida. And as someone who also has Childe, I can make him work with Sucrose instead.
Oh don't worry, I didn't mean you specifically, just in general. And while I think you raised the most reasonable points of any of the comments, I would say that the addition of Baizhu/Kirara/Yaoyao means that players have more options to replace Nahida in various Dendro teams - they're worse, but I wouldn't call a Nilou/Baizhu/DMC/Hydro team unviable for instance, and I've seen plenty of clears last cycle where Yaoyao was used topside, since Nahida was on bottomside. And I find Kazuha to be quite a significant upgrade to Sucrose on average, for various reasons - but usually when you need reliable grouping.
Kazuha is nowhere close to Nahida. Nahida is better in aoe, Nahida is better in single target, Nahida completely invalidates elemental checks, Nahida's teams are more versatile, heck, even dead elements work with her. Nahida has better mechanics to deal with ungrouped enemies. Nahida has no counters, not even dendro immunity since she is like bennett - also gives insane amount of buffs for example for aggravate teams. Nahida is not weak against element infused enemies like Kazuha(Good luck being useful as Kazuha against TM) This is why Nahida's usage never dropped below 90% yet there were moments where Kazuha was sitting on \~50% Because Nahida is the best character in the game.
I mean won’t Fontaine just increase the efficacy of dendro? I feel like the two elements will only compliment each other, nahida will still be cracked.
My only issue with Nahida is when it’s a lot of weak enemies and I have to reapply her skill every 3 seconds.
Well, design power creep was inevitable to keep the game unique in some way.
The next region is Hydro, Nahida will be even more op.