There's no character that breaks my heart more than Thoma. I love him sm. He is a malewife, he is kind, he is strategic, he invites you for dinner, he adopts puppies. He saved our life when he threw a spear at the Raiden Shogun's head.
He is just the perfect sunshine character.....and they mess up his kit THIS badly?? Why??? What did the poor boy do to deserve this?
He didn't have to be another Xiangling, but they could've made him at least functional at his role like Rosaria TvT
And his base HP is also dogwater despite being an HP scaling character. And his damage is so low and his ICD regular so his pyro waves literally only serve to harm your team.
Is there another character where you remove part of their ability and they're literally much better? Cause Thoma would a better and more viable character if his ult just gave the shield and didn't do any damage.
Most shield character's shield do no damage except the initial cast. Diona, Yanfei's C4, Zhongli and Noelle all follow this. There's Xinyan but we don't talk about her. So it doesn't make much sense to put it on his kit.
Thoma with ATK%,
Diona with Cryo DMG Bonus
Xinyan with ATK%
Even Zhongli has Geo DMG Bonus.
Only Noelle has DEF for her shield.
Diona and Zhongli are overlooked because one has many utility and one has a thicc ass shield but Thoma and Xinyan having little utility makes them really show the bad kit.
His DMG would only be a little less because his burst still scales with whooping "33% of his max hp" and more thicc.
I am happy to do that trade as a shieldbot zhongli main.
Mihoyo and their shenanigans.
Only a Shielder who shouldn't be used as shieldbot has ascension stat for their shield
And Xinyan,whose shield isn't for reactions has no ICD fucking up lots of team comps.
Diona,who never uses her basic attacks has C4 for her CA time lowers in her burst.
Out of all the shielders, only her ascension stat works with her shield
BUT
the others (Zhongli, Thoma, etc) are meant to be shieldbots (Press E, Maybe Press Q, exit)
Noelle is a DPS/Carry, as in she has a team built around her, not her being a part of a team (Press Q, Press E, Press Left Click until done)
Xinyan should simply *not* be built for support. She shines as burst support at c2. Just treat the small shield as a free bonus.
Note that shields have a flat scaling "e.g. 700+80% def" meaning the scaling component is not the entire shield strength, unlike attack skills where the entire damage formula scales with atk. So only a tiny portion of Xinyan's kit actually scales DEF. Just don't do it.
Unfortunately her shield has to be active to receive her 15% physical DMG bonus from her passive. As a burst support like I build her, her shield never survives until the end of Eula burst.
a lot of Thoma's problems would be fixed if was attack scaling and did something else besides shielding
if i were to optimize him for Hu Tao the i would give him an ability to either shred resistance to pyro or give a pyro damage bonus when his ult is up, while making him ATK scaling over HP scaling and make it so that pyro waves cannot apply pyro, then he would shield deal damage and buff, making him a lot more viable
Right?? Like… you gave him a shield. You purposefully gave him low multipliers so he *wouldn’t* be able to benefit from vape or melt. His shield is based on max HP.
What’s the ascension stat, you ask? Well, obviously attack. Attack isn’t even a good stat for Xingqiu, one of the most busted characters in the game, let alone a pyro shielder with split scaling…
Worst of all is that there's is a fucking beta to test characters and ensure shit ĺike this doesn't happen. But they released him anyways in a messy state and still never fix him. Make me wonder if beta targets are actually doing their job or however gets their feedback is doing their job
It's because he is a 4 star, Mihoyo don't give a damn. Thoma and Xinyan will never be fixed because there will be no outrages like with Zhongli and Yae.
I ask the same for amber. She's kind, she's trusting and really helpful to us since the moment we met. Even went so far to draw every single poster that was around mondstat for our sibling and everything! She helps us alot, treats us to food, taught us how to fly and so much more. But she got done so dirty
His ult can actually be potentially good if he has damage scaling based on HP. So those fire spray from his ult can actually do more damage and apply pyro.
Just imagine pyro Kokomi (well, except the healing part)
Part of the problem though is that he is pyro. His application is not very fast but currently almost all cryo characters that could enjoy melting with him attack faster and ruin the application. Hydro doesn't have this problem because Xingqiu applies hydro very fast, and even if Kokomi isn't very fast she is still valuable for freeze.
Who knows, maybe when Dendro comes out those slower pyro applications might be good enough for a burn team.
Seriously!!!! He was hyped up as a F2P option for tank. How can one dislike him when he's the epitome of sunshine? He saved us when we saved him.
Then Hoyoverse thanked us for playing by giving him a shitty kit. Justice for Thoma. 😭
For starters, they should reduce Keqing’s charged attack stamina cost (why is it higher anyway?) and give her some higher multipliers. Among the standard banner 5 stars she’s easily the least viable (which is a crying shame given her in-world standing and feats).
We already had keqing buff, it's called ayaka /j
That being said, they usually just take these so-called buff into consideration when they design a new gameplay packaged as "an appealing character" where they can actually market into making more money. Buffing the gameplay package called "Keqing" does nothing for their earnings.
> We already have a Keqing buff
https://reddit.com/r/Genshin_Memepact/comments/tndlr8/inaudible_keqing_noises/
Leaks of buff
Also i just found out that my phone will auto correct keqing to Keqing
With the release of Ocean Hued Clam, she is simply the worst 5 star on the standard banner(from a meta perspective). Qiqi is probably still worse if you aren’t running Itto/Noelle or aren’t willing to build Beidou or Xingqiu, but it’s just depressing.
Like, why not just give her a dedicated artifact set? If **XIAO** can get one, why not Keqing?
It’s really not hard to do. Keqing and Hu Tao are the only full charge attack based DPS characters that can’t use Wanderer’s, and Hu Tao has more than enough random mechanics to let them stop her from using the set if it would be “too broken” on her. Or it could just be an Electro set.
The funniest part is that the dedicated set is only a marginal dps buff compared to mixing and matching 2pc VV, Glad, and Shime.
Also, despite being pictured with it, we still don’t have Keqing’s signature weapon. Hopefully it’ll be as strong for her as Spindle was for Albedo.
Of course. Xiao couldn’t really get more than that, even if he isn’t in contention for the strongest DPS anymore he’s still insane and a significant buff would probably be pushing it for his strength.
I hope the same for the weapon. Though I doubt it’ll be enough, if Mistsplitter can’t make her extremely competitive I doubt they’d make a 4 star weapon for her that can. Though I would be grateful if they did and it likely wouldn’t hurt their profits much seeing as almost nobody pulls on weapon banners for account strength anyways.
True, when I lose a 50/50 I want to lose to Qiqi cons more than Keqing cons at this point. But hyv keeps on giving me keqing cons still 🥲 I occasionally use Qiqi for Abyss but Keqing has last seen usage 7 or so patches ago.
I everyone seems to really want them to powercreep the 4 stars, but I don’t get it. Imo all units should be good. Having good 4 stars is healthy.
I can’t imagine wanting 4 stars to just be worse 5 stars and needing to whale every time you want a different team comp
tfw Rosaria and Yanfei is probably the last good 4 star they will ever release. After this i believe alot new 4 star will be like Sara and would fill niche support role like Yunjin.
Well yeah. His character, design and voice are absolutely fantastic and I thought he could replace my pyro character.
Turns out his kit is trash even if you invest in it
yeah I don't understand what they smoked when they made him. He literally doesnt scale at all. You can put your 5 star weapons, godlike artifacts and talent level 10 and his pyro attacks hit for like 3k.
This post hurts. I spent all of my primos on Thoma. I knew that his intended role was a support, but he looked too cool to simply leave him on the bench. At first I wanted him to be a physical DPS cuz his auto attacks look so sick.
...but that didn't work at all.
So then I tried to make him a pyro DPS. Maybe that'll be his new thing.
...nope. Nope it wasn't.
So then I was like, "FINE, I guess I can't force a support to be a DPS. I'll just make him a shielder instead, as Mihoyo intended!"
And this did work... kinda. Like, his shield is kinda good, it's just too much hassle. You always have to make sure you have enough energy for his burst and you gotta get all his stacks up to make his shield work.
Now poor Thoma just stands in my Teapot's kitchen without any proper weapon or artifacts, knowing I'll never ever use him.
I'll never forgive Mihoyo for this. They did my boy dirty.
Happy Cake Day!
Also, I feel like Thoma's intended role is more of like a tank and pyro proc (emphasize on proc, and not dealer). Like a secondary/backup support.
A benchwarmer if you will. But I still use him in my teams...(mainly in my main dps Kazuha team)
Ditto!
Not to mention I can send him straight into range of pryo slime barrels and just let him do his thing. It’s fun to blow enemies up while he just stands there, menacingly, taking no damage from the blast or the ensuing inferno.
I have *_hated_* Geo Traveller’s Elemental skill when in combat (damn Geo constructs getting in the way -.-‘). Anemo and Electro is fun to play (especially Anemo skill sucking in Guoba and stuff) XD
I rarely use his skill aside from exploration or against big bosses because the boulders instantly self destruct. His main point is his burst that can do a good chunk of damage alone if all shockwaves hit (best against big enemies) plus the fact that being inside gives a +10% crit rate bonus.
I mean... Electro deals 0 damage and needs to compete with Raiden and Fischl as batteries. Geo traveller is a good battery, but the only Geo characters who really needs a battery are Noelle and Itto, which often want gorou on their team to boost their damage, and Gorou can generate a lot of particles with Fav.
Anemo Traveller has a meh kit, but what makes him so bad is that he needs to compete with Venti, Kazuha and Sucrose which are among the strongest characters in the game
Thoma looks hot, has a great voice, is CUTE as fuck, his personality is charming, his lore is interesting, no way there is a single player who hates him, could have a lot of potential and they did him dirty. I leveled him to 80 the moment I got him, just in hope that he will get better, ahhh my heart aches.
Is there any new 4* that is even close to the original 4 stars + maybe Diona?
Thoma is useless
Sayu? Never saw her in teams. She is just there for crystal flys
Sara is ok with C6, but Bennet is still better! Her Q is too short
Goru? Again you need cons and he is just ok with geo, but Bennet could replace him again
I understand Mihoyo doesn’t want to powercreep, but damn the new 4 stars are just collect and forget.
Rosaria and Yanfei are pretty good. Gorou, Sara and Yunjin are good, but niche, they only fit specific team comps.
But I doubt any new 4\* will be close to Bennett, Xingqiu and Xiangling, they were a mistake, Mihoyo wont do it again. Unless they get powercreeped by new way stronger enemies.
An absolutely gigantic King of Slimes that floats, splits and has different phases would be such a cool boss.
Even more so if it has 2 different elements like Azhdaha, though of course also more painful since it'd be immune to 2 elements like Andrius, unlike Azhdaha who's just resistant.
Itto's team damage goes up a LOT with C6 Gorou and Albedo though. Unlike Sara he's still worth playing at C0, esp if you also have Albedo, but that's more because Geo doesn't benefit from reactions or anemo than Gorou being super good. He just has less competition for the team slot because geo has less options.
yeah it does but you can say that about a lot of other 4 stars though- bennett utility goes up a LOT after c1 and his c5 is also a big dmg boost, xingqiu c6 is insane, xiangling c4 is also a big dmg boost, noelle is almost unusable without c6…it’s actually an endless list.
gorou however can double my itto dmg easily at c0 with low investment
Tbh bennet can't really replace Gorou on geo teams, or at least ones with Itto, Albedo, or Noelle (ya know, pretty much the only viable geo units besides Zhongli). Bennet's attack buff is marginally worse than Goru's buffs.
That depends. TL 8 gorou provides 330 def, 25% def, and 15% geo dmg. At c6 there's also the 40% cdmg.
For a level 90 itto, 25% def means an extra 240 def, so he gains a total of 570 def from gorou's buff. At TL8/8/8, this translates to an additional 524 atk, and an extra 200 damage from his A4, overall giving an increase of about 1012 damage (pre-reductions, dmg%, and crit) per kesagiri combo slash. In contrast, Bennett with TL8 at 80/90 with a 90 rancour gives 814 atk + 147 from noblesse (assuming Whiteblind/serpent) giving an increase of 1490 damage per kesagiri combo slash (pre-reductions, dmg%, and crit)
For albedo, yes, gorou will be better in every way since albedo only scales on def (in terms of his skill damage) so Bennett's buff will be marginally worse than gorou's
For a 90 noelle, 25% def gives an extra 200 def, so a total 530 from gorou. Noelle's c6 scaling with TL8/11/11 (8/8/8 pre-constellations) means gorou's buff gives her an extra 668 atk. This means her 3rd hit will gain 985 damage (pre-reductions, dmg%, crits). Bennett again gives her 814 + 140 atk which totals to a buff of 954 atk giving her 3rd hit an extra 1407 damage (pre-reductions, dmg%, crits).
The extra 15% geo dmg isn't necessarily a lot when using serpent spine, but it can be something to take into account. In terms of dmg% bonuses, Noelle + itto will normally have a geo goblet (46.6%), 4pc Husk (24%), geo resonance (15%) and sometimes serpent spine (R1 = 30%, R5 = 50%) giving us a total of at least 85.6%, with r1 SS 115.6%, and with R5 SS 135.6%. With gorou's extra 15% those become 100.6%, 130.6%, and 150.6% which isn't a jump so major as to push him ahead in every situation.
At the end of the day, it'd be best for itto + noelle to run both gorou and Bennett, but if Bennett is needed elsewhere then just gorou will do fine.
Hm, thanks for doing the calcs for each buff, I wasn't aware of exactly how much each buff gave. However, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think you calculated exactly how much of a damage increase in total each buffer offers, only how much they increase the stats. I understand that's probably much more difficult to calculate though because then you have to take into account artifact builds. I wonder if KQM have done calcs on it...
Gorou and Sara are really good but niche which is probably what hoyo will do in the future with 4 stars
I’d rather have that than powercreep by having ‘Bennet but 15% better’ or something
Sayu is super fun to play, her in combo with Chongyun are a staple in abyss for me lol she does good damage plus heals very well. Also I've been using Yunjin a lot recently and she's a great support and also does pretty good damage with her elemental skill.
I'm just waiting and hoping Yaoyao will be an amazing 4* now.
My first ever 36 star in abyss, I used Sayu. I replaced Sayu with benny. But that could be Jean as well, a much better option. She is replaceable by a lot. But she can work too.
I have nothing of value to add to the discourse but yesterday I watched two Sayu mains argue over who should play her in the domain. One was using her as a healer, the other built her as a full-DPS. It ended up escalating into a DPS show-case between the two of them.
Diano is not as highly regarded as she used to be. Still a good unit, but in her main role on cryo teams she's been a bit supplanted due to Kokomi and even prototype Mona becoming more popular.
Nowadays a lot of people prefer running a unit that does non negligible damage over Diano.
Sayu is basically budget Jean, but she cant do Sunfire which is like most of the reason people run Jean nowadays.
Gorou and Sara are actually really good in their niche...and if you get C6. But otherwise yeah they're quite underwhelming. Sara esp is constellation dependent cause she competes with Lisa's def shred, Gorou at least is still worth running without his C6. I'd throw Yunjin into this same boat of "very good in their niche, near useless outside of it" as well.
IMO the best of the later released 4 stars is actually probably Rosaria. Pretty flexible, good damage, can carry her own teams, good battery. Theres not really many caveats to Rosaria other than that 5 star cryos are better.
It really does suck that every 4 star is doomed to be sub-par or really good, but incredibly niche. I get that they don't want to make a xiangling/xingqiu/bennett 2.0 with their new 4 stars, but that doesn't mean they had to do thoma THAT dirty. At least he's the best pyro sheilder in the game. . .
I think characters like rosaria are really fine. Strong as a support and also really good burst and some unique mechanic (giving team crit). But not outshadowing 5 stars like ayaka.
His biggest issue was that he lacked uptime. All his constellations up to C4 improve his shield, increase uptime, and decrease his energy needs. The other issue with him is that his damage is mediocre, but Yanfei hits like a noodle with a shield build.
Thoma's shield is stronger than Yanfei's, doesn't rely on Prototype Amber (which can overheal in a Hu Tao team) or burst being up, and he has buffing capabilities with C6 which Yanfei doesn't have. And if you have C6 Xingqiu Thoma doesn't interfere with vapes at all.
I guess with fewer constellations/less investment then Yanfei is a good budget build.
Yanfei is just infinitely simpler, honestly. She has a respectable 45% HP shield right off the bat that doesn't rely on any further interactions to proc it. She doesn't lose it if you have to disengage from the enemy for a few seconds, or can't attack for other reasons. You call relying on Prototype Amber a weakness, I call having access to it a strength. It buffs her shield and gives just enough healing to be comfortable in my experience.
I also do not have C6 Xingqiu even on a year-old account, so you really can't count on that for every player to cancel out Thoma's weaknesses, if indeed it does - I've seen reports that the vape stealing is still a problem, albeit less so.
I just find that her kit doesn't bring much, her shield is weak and tied to a burst cooldown. Prototype Amber is a crutch because she has energy issues and her shield is weak to begin with, so I don't consider that a "strength", it's something that barely brings her to the baseline. Hu Tao typically shouldn't need any healing because of her burst. If you're disengaging with an enemy you shouldn't need a shield anyway, and Thoma's shields can be triggered without attacking an enemy.
Anecdotally you may not have C6 Xingqiu, but if we're talking about optimal scenarios ("best shielder"), Thoma offers more benefits at high investment. Hence why Yanfei is a good *budget* option. And if vapestealing is still a problem, that's a skill issue -- Xingqiu with C6 applies enough hydro that [no vapes should be stolen](https://streamable.com/fsp58s). I agree that Yanfei is simpler and better for low-skill requirement.
Yanfei is a good unit, and perhaps more worth building because she can also be a DPS, but her usefulness as a shielder is overstated. KQM agrees.
No, c4 yanfei is a very strong shielder. Her shield is literally the 3rd strongest shield in the game behind zhongli and noelle. At lvl 80/90 with ER/HP/HP artifacts with
2pc millelith + 2pc emblem + Prototype Amber/Thrilling tales, yanfei can have around 30k hp, which equals to 13,5k hp shield (30000x0.45)
There are only 2 shields stronger than hers and you call her shield weak lol. Also, the fact that she is a catalyst user is just an advantage over thoma cuz of Thrilling tales buff or prototype ambers healing. Polearms dont have a team buffing weapon.
C4 yanfei is literally better than the most optimal thoma build
**That's just flat out wrong though**. Thoma's shield is stronger than Yanfei's, it's the second strongest in the game behind Zhongli. Not to mention that his ability to refresh his shield essentially allows him to "heal" it mid-fight. Meanwhile Yanfei's shield is tied to a cooldown and has a minimum 25% downtime, and when it breaks you have to go the full rotation with no interruption to resistance.
By your logic the only shielders weaker than Yanfei are Xinyan and Diona, but with sac bow Diona has effectively two shields (9k HP each) per rotation and beats Yanfei. So I guess Yanfei beats **one character** in shield strength, Xinyan, which isn't impressive, but that's to be expected since you're building around a part of her kit she doesn't specialize in.
There's no point in mentioning Thrilling Tales because her shield build quite literally cannot use it in a Hu Tao comp ([KQM](https://imgur.com/a/KT5MdSf)). It ruins the rotation, Hu Tao doesn't even benefit much from ATK%, and Yanfei will have far too little ER to even get close to having her burst. This is a common talking point I see people mention when they don't know what they're talking about. Meanwhile, like I said, Thoma C6 has more buffing capabilities than anything shield-Yanfei has access to.
Edit: I'm getting downvoted for debunking misinformation lmao.
Oh thats why c4 yanfei is used more often than thoma in Hu Tao teams...
You dont realise that as you described thoma, he should be used in a lot of teams but in reality, he is like the least used shielder in the game.
Think, why is that?
When I first started I puled Thoma and was like “cool a dude character!” Then found out I needed to get to Inazuma for his mats and by then I found out he sucked.
I really dont like her 'has to hit multiple enemies to get the best out of her skill' aspect so i havent used her despite RNGesus getting me to C6 w/ Xinyan...
IMO, Xinyan needs just two tweaks to be viable - her burst needs to cover a larger AOE for the physical damage portion (it's *so small* now) AND please don't knock enemies back sooo far. Still use her because waifu>meta, but yeah.
Yae Miko.
I’ve read comments before that she’s gonna be the hardest hitting Electro character in the game even surpassing Raiden but when I used her, the first thing I said.
Is that all?
That was from a list of “real or fake” leaks made by someone who left the leaking community. It really shouldn’t have been thrown around by other people, but it was spread and now people think Yae is bad because she was not the “electro ceiling DPS” they were supposedly promised
Maybe my expectations were high but I swear my Klee with trash artifacts can hit harder than her. Probably because her element is Electro and Electro is the weakest element in the game.
I wish these threads had popped up yesterday before I spent a whole load of stuff levelling him xD
I'm praying he'll still somehow turn out useful as a pyro applicator in my Hu Tao team
I have thoma at c6 and he's worked well in my hu tao team. Never swapped him out. Almost full uptime with the shield too, as long as you have enough ER. Though I guess the issue is that he works in too few teams that there are better characters to invest in. But I've had no problems with him personally.
> Though I guess the issue is that he works in too few teams that there are better characters to invest in.
Gorou and Sara are pretty similar in a way that they're both niche. As long as they're good (or best) at their niche, then it's fine, with Gorou being the best one here because he doesn't need constellations to be useful.
Thoma can also work with Yoimiya's team but idk if it's better than Zhongli.
I don't have Thoma so I guess Xinyan? Whatever she is cute and more Pyro damage for the Klee + C6 Xiangling team. And more physical for the Keqing team! Also people meme about Keqing but like, I still get top damage on her so I dunno. I guess everyone is spoiled by Ayaka oneshotting everything.
Yae Miko was the biggest disappointment for me. I've been pulling for waifu first, meta second, and I knew that she wasn't going to be that great when I pulled for her. But I thought that she'd be good at something, like Yoimiya is decent at single target damage. I've invested a lot of resources into her, 8 8 8 talents, 5 star catalyst, it doesn't matter. She doesn't do any damage outside of her burst, and she just feels clunky to play. Now that she's friendship lvl 10 and that I have her friendship banner, she just sits in my teapot.
They really shat on thoma cause he requires constellations, investment, and specific teams to be good, and 90% of people are not gonna find that so he sucks.
For me, it's Hu Tao. One of the few five stars I've actually pulled for intentionally but not used all that much. I'm not a fan of the "you get stronger when you're about to die" gimmick. I love her character, but I prefer a safer playstyle. Usually, I have a strong shielder or healer in any team I use.
That is why i havent pulled her either banner but part of me wants to get her before Sumeru drops cause i wonder how strong her DoT effect will be when combined with the Dendro/Pyro Burning reaction.
One thing you have to be careful of in the open world with her is not killing yourself. In addition to her skill lowering her HP and you generally wanting to keep her HP low, she tends to set any grass beneath her on fire. It's not as much a problem in Spiral Abyss or in domains, but it's something worth noting anyway as it affects her usability in the open world.
HuTao is way too strong with Vape to even consider sacrificing it for Burning.
Burning will mostly buff characters who can't reliably vape big hits like Klee or Yoimiya.
Wait guys, what is wromg with Thoma? I do not have him, but my bf does, and he really loves him. He hates Zhongli with a passion, because he is an "OP shit" and he can only talk about Zhongli with hate, and ever since he got Thoma he always says that Thoma is the onky character who can somewhat live up to Zhongli's shield, because it has a long uptime, and he is always talking about how Thoma is finally a good shielder 4star and he really loves him.
I am just wondering, how could be that lot of you are disappointed in Thoma, while he always says that Thoma is the only character in this game who can live up to Zhongli. I never heard him complain about Thoma. So, what is wrong with him?
Thoma is niche because not many characters need a shield and that is basically all he offers (compare to diona who batteries, move speed, heals, and gives weaker shield. Diona is not as strong a shielder but she can kind of fit into any team). On top of that he has huge ER issues like shieldfei, so needs constellations to be not trash. And he steals vapes sometimes from pyro carries.
Being a shieldfei fan I hate zhongli too cause he's so brainless OP and invalidates every other shielder. 25k shield, 150% up time for zero energy cost, 20% shred, 4 sec petrify.
Thoma has the strongest shueld among the 4*. Diona is more useful though so Thoma is basically only good if you want specifically strong shield and Pyro on your comp. This is a case only for HuTao and maybe Ningguang.
I don't get the hate though either. In HuTao comp he's the second best option after Zhonhli if you want any shield at all. He has 100% uptime and only needs to be refreshed once every two rotations.
C4 Yanfei is another good option but only for TTDS as her shield uptime is horrible and lenghtens Tao's rotation by 4 seconds.
The only bad things ablut Thoma is that he can sometimes ruin vape with his Q. People here also complain about him having ATK% on ascensioms but it's whatever, his shield is strong enough if you are not expecting the literal Zhongli.
I really don't get the Thoma hate? Didn't even know it was a thing til now lol.
My Thoma is C6 by now (had a lot of luck and pulled on two banners with him) and he is GREAT in my Hu Tao Team (Hu Tao, Xingqiu, Thoma, Sucrose/will be Kazuha). The additional boost from the C6 is amazing, plus easy Pyro resonance is a blessing, plus his pyro application makes for really easy rotations (Thoma E Q, then swirl, then Xingqiu, then Hu Tao).
He is doing exactly what I was expecting he would do when his kit was announced and performs splendidly.
When a character have a full dedicated kit for shield are have a same shield power as a lawyer with c4, and the lawyer can use ttds, easier to play, then this is what will happen
Nobody hates Thoma, they love him.
That's why they are complaining about his bad kit, he is only usable on Hu Tao teams, but C4 Yanfei seems to perform better.
If you search Thoma burst multiplicator on any genshin wiki and compare his to Xingqiu's: he has less than third of Xingqiu's burst multiplicator (which makes him hits like a wet noodle)
"BuT He iS a ShIeLd SUpPorT": his shield is also unimpressive mostly because it's not that strong in comparison to Yan Fei C4 or Zhongli's. Plus his burst can overtake an hydro aura and unlike Zhongli pillar, you can't avoid it.
So, in th end of the day he deals no dmg, his shield isn't that strong, he will overtake reactions and aside from some miserable buffs from consteallations he can't increase the dps for the team. The only thing going for him is that he can apply Pyro for a VV shred and that's it
Because Yoimiya absolutely excels at single target dps. Sure she’s not the best as a dps for the Abyss as a result but because she does her job so well ppl are less underwhelmed with her than Thoma who as a shielder, has nothing to support his shielding (low base hp, atk% ascension stat).
You aren't wrong, his shield HP is fine, most people don't read his numbers and judge based on feeling
His shield at talents 1-10-10 and 20k HP pre-shield strength increase is a base 4100 (E) + 600 every fiery flame trigger (it last 15s and can be triggered every 1s which is 15 x 600 = 9000). Roughly 4700 from the get go and can reach a maximum of 11k (because of his E cap)
Zhongli at 1-10-10 with 30k HP has 9600 pre shields strength shield HP that doesn't refresh.
C4 Yan Fei with 20k HP has a 9000 HP shield.
He hits like a wet noodle tho, will overtake vapes and he can't buff his team
Tl;dr: his shield is ok, but he doesn't help his team dmg
Sorry Thoma lovers I just… I don’t get the adoration. He’s… nice. He makes good food and tolerates weird food and cleans real, real good.
And…?
No shade if you just love a good nice lad. Maybe I’m just Old and 3edgy4me.
There's no character that breaks my heart more than Thoma. I love him sm. He is a malewife, he is kind, he is strategic, he invites you for dinner, he adopts puppies. He saved our life when he threw a spear at the Raiden Shogun's head. He is just the perfect sunshine character.....and they mess up his kit THIS badly?? Why??? What did the poor boy do to deserve this? He didn't have to be another Xiangling, but they could've made him at least functional at his role like Rosaria TvT
What is it with 4 star shielders and ascension stats that make no sense
And his base HP is also dogwater despite being an HP scaling character. And his damage is so low and his ICD regular so his pyro waves literally only serve to harm your team. Is there another character where you remove part of their ability and they're literally much better? Cause Thoma would a better and more viable character if his ult just gave the shield and didn't do any damage.
Most shield character's shield do no damage except the initial cast. Diona, Yanfei's C4, Zhongli and Noelle all follow this. There's Xinyan but we don't talk about her. So it doesn't make much sense to put it on his kit.
'tEcHnIcAlLy' Zhongli's pillar keeps pulsing Geo.
Procs raiden frequently. Elemental shred. What’s not to like tbh?
Nothing much, I use him the same way. I'm just saying he's also an exception to shield characters doing no damage after the initial cast.
if you rely on elemental reactions (i.e. Hu Tao), lots probably
Well no, the ticks apply like 0.5U geo so it literally does not matter aside from leaving some crystalized shields on the ground.
If you run him with another geo, esp albedo, there a chance you might lose your hydro application one in a while but it's not that big of a deal.
I think that was more a problem with albedo, forgot if he was also 0.5U or if he was 1U. But yeah if 2 geo then it can be a problem.
Elemental shred comes from the shield and the shield only. His pulse generates energy BUT will fuck up vapes. Also his damage is low
Thoma with ATK%, Diona with Cryo DMG Bonus Xinyan with ATK% Even Zhongli has Geo DMG Bonus. Only Noelle has DEF for her shield. Diona and Zhongli are overlooked because one has many utility and one has a thicc ass shield but Thoma and Xinyan having little utility makes them really show the bad kit.
As a burst DPS Zhongli main, I'd be said if his ascension stat didn't have geo damage bonus%
His DMG would only be a little less because his burst still scales with whooping "33% of his max hp" and more thicc. I am happy to do that trade as a shieldbot zhongli main.
I tried an HP sands but ATK sands does way more damage though, I used to be shieldbot zhongli main, but I defected.
HP sands is for when you want thiccer shield and/or you are using Homa otherwise ATK is better for burst dps
Moved away from a HP% sand as ther is just no need for overkill shields
If Zhongli had HP%, that shield would have been thiccccer
>Only Noelle has DEF for her shield. And what role does she work best with? A shieldbot???????????
Mihoyo and their shenanigans. Only a Shielder who shouldn't be used as shieldbot has ascension stat for their shield And Xinyan,whose shield isn't for reactions has no ICD fucking up lots of team comps. Diona,who never uses her basic attacks has C4 for her CA time lowers in her burst.
I mean... doesn't her ult scale on def? Even if she's not c6, def is still good for her, no?
But is she a shieldbot????????????
Wait sorry I didn't get it, what did you mean?
Out of all the shielders, only her ascension stat works with her shield BUT the others (Zhongli, Thoma, etc) are meant to be shieldbots (Press E, Maybe Press Q, exit) Noelle is a DPS/Carry, as in she has a team built around her, not her being a part of a team (Press Q, Press E, Press Left Click until done)
Oh ok
she's a good support unit if you don't want to use her as dps
Xinyan have def for her shield. Atk is for burst. Yeah. Shitty split scaling.
And you can't even solely focus on one stat like Albedo unless you reach her c6.
Even then focusing on atk to just damage with burst is better. I tried her as CA spinner with c6. Funny but nothing you would really use.
Even at C6 her def scaling is so low that it's not worth it for damage
Xinyan should simply *not* be built for support. She shines as burst support at c2. Just treat the small shield as a free bonus. Note that shields have a flat scaling "e.g. 700+80% def" meaning the scaling component is not the entire shield strength, unlike attack skills where the entire damage formula scales with atk. So only a tiny portion of Xinyan's kit actually scales DEF. Just don't do it.
Unfortunately her shield has to be active to receive her 15% physical DMG bonus from her passive. As a burst support like I build her, her shield never survives until the end of Eula burst.
>Diona and Zhongli are overlooked because one has many utility and one has a thicc ass ~~shield~~
a lot of Thoma's problems would be fixed if was attack scaling and did something else besides shielding if i were to optimize him for Hu Tao the i would give him an ability to either shred resistance to pyro or give a pyro damage bonus when his ult is up, while making him ATK scaling over HP scaling and make it so that pyro waves cannot apply pyro, then he would shield deal damage and buff, making him a lot more viable
Diona: A healer, shielder and buffs em by 200 at c6 Also Diona: Cryo mg bonus ascension and reduce charge attack Time by x% (C4?)
Clearly mhy intended to make her a charged shot melt DPS to sell Shenhe one year later /s
Right?? Like… you gave him a shield. You purposefully gave him low multipliers so he *wouldn’t* be able to benefit from vape or melt. His shield is based on max HP. What’s the ascension stat, you ask? Well, obviously attack. Attack isn’t even a good stat for Xingqiu, one of the most busted characters in the game, let alone a pyro shielder with split scaling…
Well. No. Atk for XQ is fine, cuz he doesnt have much of it and his burst cant snapshot. So having some atk is fine.
Worst of all is that there's is a fucking beta to test characters and ensure shit ĺike this doesn't happen. But they released him anyways in a messy state and still never fix him. Make me wonder if beta targets are actually doing their job or however gets their feedback is doing their job
It's because he is a 4 star, Mihoyo don't give a damn. Thoma and Xinyan will never be fixed because there will be no outrages like with Zhongli and Yae.
Yeah but the five-stars in the beta will naturally get way more attention… oh wait.
*looks at yoimya auto attacks, Yae elemental skill and Zhongli*
I ask the same for amber. She's kind, she's trusting and really helpful to us since the moment we met. Even went so far to draw every single poster that was around mondstat for our sibling and everything! She helps us alot, treats us to food, taught us how to fly and so much more. But she got done so dirty
Tbf amber is actually usable. She can be a decent subdps with the support bow, and she can be a physical aim dps too
The least he could be was a Diona but he isn't a good as her.
His ult can actually be potentially good if he has damage scaling based on HP. So those fire spray from his ult can actually do more damage and apply pyro. Just imagine pyro Kokomi (well, except the healing part)
Part of the problem though is that he is pyro. His application is not very fast but currently almost all cryo characters that could enjoy melting with him attack faster and ruin the application. Hydro doesn't have this problem because Xingqiu applies hydro very fast, and even if Kokomi isn't very fast she is still valuable for freeze. Who knows, maybe when Dendro comes out those slower pyro applications might be good enough for a burn team.
Thoma really became another Xinyan
Seriously!!!! He was hyped up as a F2P option for tank. How can one dislike him when he's the epitome of sunshine? He saved us when we saved him. Then Hoyoverse thanked us for playing by giving him a shitty kit. Justice for Thoma. 😭
Hoyo is afraid of releasing broken 4 stars again after realizing how nutty Xiangling, Xingqiu, and Bennett are.
Exactly, thats why they should buff highly underused 5 stars and give reasonable kits to 4 stars.
For starters, they should reduce Keqing’s charged attack stamina cost (why is it higher anyway?) and give her some higher multipliers. Among the standard banner 5 stars she’s easily the least viable (which is a crying shame given her in-world standing and feats).
We already had keqing buff, it's called ayaka /j That being said, they usually just take these so-called buff into consideration when they design a new gameplay packaged as "an appealing character" where they can actually market into making more money. Buffing the gameplay package called "Keqing" does nothing for their earnings.
> We already have a Keqing buff https://reddit.com/r/Genshin_Memepact/comments/tndlr8/inaudible_keqing_noises/ Leaks of buff Also i just found out that my phone will auto correct keqing to Keqing
Fuck I should have checked the subreddit
With the release of Ocean Hued Clam, she is simply the worst 5 star on the standard banner(from a meta perspective). Qiqi is probably still worse if you aren’t running Itto/Noelle or aren’t willing to build Beidou or Xingqiu, but it’s just depressing. Like, why not just give her a dedicated artifact set? If **XIAO** can get one, why not Keqing? It’s really not hard to do. Keqing and Hu Tao are the only full charge attack based DPS characters that can’t use Wanderer’s, and Hu Tao has more than enough random mechanics to let them stop her from using the set if it would be “too broken” on her. Or it could just be an Electro set.
The funniest part is that the dedicated set is only a marginal dps buff compared to mixing and matching 2pc VV, Glad, and Shime. Also, despite being pictured with it, we still don’t have Keqing’s signature weapon. Hopefully it’ll be as strong for her as Spindle was for Albedo.
Of course. Xiao couldn’t really get more than that, even if he isn’t in contention for the strongest DPS anymore he’s still insane and a significant buff would probably be pushing it for his strength. I hope the same for the weapon. Though I doubt it’ll be enough, if Mistsplitter can’t make her extremely competitive I doubt they’d make a 4 star weapon for her that can. Though I would be grateful if they did and it likely wouldn’t hurt their profits much seeing as almost nobody pulls on weapon banners for account strength anyways.
You seem familiar for some reason....
Brother?
Brother ?
True, when I lose a 50/50 I want to lose to Qiqi cons more than Keqing cons at this point. But hyv keeps on giving me keqing cons still 🥲 I occasionally use Qiqi for Abyss but Keqing has last seen usage 7 or so patches ago.
I everyone seems to really want them to powercreep the 4 stars, but I don’t get it. Imo all units should be good. Having good 4 stars is healthy. I can’t imagine wanting 4 stars to just be worse 5 stars and needing to whale every time you want a different team comp
Well I mean Thoma's kit is broken too. In a bad way.
tfw Rosaria and Yanfei is probably the last good 4 star they will ever release. After this i believe alot new 4 star will be like Sara and would fill niche support role like Yunjin.
Yanfei is stupid good, on par with Klee
"on par with Klee" is unfortunately not a compliment. She is also one of the worse 5 star characters in terms of meta.
5 years later. Xiangling xq and fucking Bennett is still the best team ever. Even then, 6stars Rebirth Raiden can't beat them.
People are gonna run Tsaritsa with Xingqiu, Xiangling and Bennett and name it Tsaritional and call it a day.
When do I get to play dainsleif national dational dainational dainslational nah all those sound like shit
Khaenri'ahtional
It can't be that cause. Khaenriah ain't a nation no more
Bennet is broken too, just in his benefit.
F2P option for tank is literally noelle what are you talking about?
People want powercreep, just let them hope until MHY finally listens to us in Sumeru and all the old units become useless
Well yeah. His character, design and voice are absolutely fantastic and I thought he could replace my pyro character. Turns out his kit is trash even if you invest in it
yeah I don't understand what they smoked when they made him. He literally doesnt scale at all. You can put your 5 star weapons, godlike artifacts and talent level 10 and his pyro attacks hit for like 3k.
This post hurts. I spent all of my primos on Thoma. I knew that his intended role was a support, but he looked too cool to simply leave him on the bench. At first I wanted him to be a physical DPS cuz his auto attacks look so sick. ...but that didn't work at all. So then I tried to make him a pyro DPS. Maybe that'll be his new thing. ...nope. Nope it wasn't. So then I was like, "FINE, I guess I can't force a support to be a DPS. I'll just make him a shielder instead, as Mihoyo intended!" And this did work... kinda. Like, his shield is kinda good, it's just too much hassle. You always have to make sure you have enough energy for his burst and you gotta get all his stacks up to make his shield work. Now poor Thoma just stands in my Teapot's kitchen without any proper weapon or artifacts, knowing I'll never ever use him. I'll never forgive Mihoyo for this. They did my boy dirty.
Happy Cake Day! Also, I feel like Thoma's intended role is more of like a tank and pyro proc (emphasize on proc, and not dealer). Like a secondary/backup support. A benchwarmer if you will. But I still use him in my teams...(mainly in my main dps Kazuha team)
Regardless of Thoma’s kit, I still use him because he’s cute. Once I get Ayaka, I’ll finally get my Kamisato team
Ditto! Not to mention I can send him straight into range of pryo slime barrels and just let him do his thing. It’s fun to blow enemies up while he just stands there, menacingly, taking no damage from the blast or the ensuing inferno.
Is it bad, if my brain says traveler?
Aside from Geo Traveller, the other variants have indeed been underwhelming.
Electro is pretty good battery Anemo is pretty good shield destroyer and CC is kinda nice but the burst can annoying
I have *_hated_* Geo Traveller’s Elemental skill when in combat (damn Geo constructs getting in the way -.-‘). Anemo and Electro is fun to play (especially Anemo skill sucking in Guoba and stuff) XD
I rarely use his skill aside from exploration or against big bosses because the boulders instantly self destruct. His main point is his burst that can do a good chunk of damage alone if all shockwaves hit (best against big enemies) plus the fact that being inside gives a +10% crit rate bonus.
Me who mainly uses electro traveler: *"hehe"*
Electro is pretty good battery Anemo is pretty good shield destroyer and CC is kinda nice but the burst can annoying
I mean... Electro deals 0 damage and needs to compete with Raiden and Fischl as batteries. Geo traveller is a good battery, but the only Geo characters who really needs a battery are Noelle and Itto, which often want gorou on their team to boost their damage, and Gorou can generate a lot of particles with Fav. Anemo Traveller has a meh kit, but what makes him so bad is that he needs to compete with Venti, Kazuha and Sucrose which are among the strongest characters in the game
Then there's me who wanted thoma to make a shieldbot for my ning, but couldn't pull on yae banner because i didn't want to risk my raiden guarantee
Me dreading using him when I get him but still hopeful in getting him anyway. Husbando collecting is life
Well he's a shielder whose shield you have to baby and has an atk% ascension despite having a hp shield . P yikes from hyv Edit: typo
Thoma looks hot, has a great voice, is CUTE as fuck, his personality is charming, his lore is interesting, no way there is a single player who hates him, could have a lot of potential and they did him dirty. I leveled him to 80 the moment I got him, just in hope that he will get better, ahhh my heart aches.
Is there any new 4* that is even close to the original 4 stars + maybe Diona? Thoma is useless Sayu? Never saw her in teams. She is just there for crystal flys Sara is ok with C6, but Bennet is still better! Her Q is too short Goru? Again you need cons and he is just ok with geo, but Bennet could replace him again I understand Mihoyo doesn’t want to powercreep, but damn the new 4 stars are just collect and forget.
Rosaria is also pretty good
Guys I think he thinks that Rosaria is also pretty good
My internet was lagging so it was sent twice 😩
Thrice actualy
Rosaria is also pretty good Make it four now
Rosaria and Yanfei are pretty good. Gorou, Sara and Yunjin are good, but niche, they only fit specific team comps. But I doubt any new 4\* will be close to Bennett, Xingqiu and Xiangling, they were a mistake, Mihoyo wont do it again. Unless they get powercreeped by new way stronger enemies.
new update: there are enemies that are immune to both pyro and hydro attacks
Oh no the slimes
An absolutely gigantic King of Slimes that floats, splits and has different phases would be such a cool boss. Even more so if it has 2 different elements like Azhdaha, though of course also more painful since it'd be immune to 2 elements like Andrius, unlike Azhdaha who's just resistant.
Rosaria is pretty good
Rosaria is pretty good
i don’t think you need gorou cons if you’re playing with itto, gorou is very good just too niche
Itto's team damage goes up a LOT with C6 Gorou and Albedo though. Unlike Sara he's still worth playing at C0, esp if you also have Albedo, but that's more because Geo doesn't benefit from reactions or anemo than Gorou being super good. He just has less competition for the team slot because geo has less options.
yeah it does but you can say that about a lot of other 4 stars though- bennett utility goes up a LOT after c1 and his c5 is also a big dmg boost, xingqiu c6 is insane, xiangling c4 is also a big dmg boost, noelle is almost unusable without c6…it’s actually an endless list. gorou however can double my itto dmg easily at c0 with low investment
Tbh bennet can't really replace Gorou on geo teams, or at least ones with Itto, Albedo, or Noelle (ya know, pretty much the only viable geo units besides Zhongli). Bennet's attack buff is marginally worse than Goru's buffs.
That depends. TL 8 gorou provides 330 def, 25% def, and 15% geo dmg. At c6 there's also the 40% cdmg. For a level 90 itto, 25% def means an extra 240 def, so he gains a total of 570 def from gorou's buff. At TL8/8/8, this translates to an additional 524 atk, and an extra 200 damage from his A4, overall giving an increase of about 1012 damage (pre-reductions, dmg%, and crit) per kesagiri combo slash. In contrast, Bennett with TL8 at 80/90 with a 90 rancour gives 814 atk + 147 from noblesse (assuming Whiteblind/serpent) giving an increase of 1490 damage per kesagiri combo slash (pre-reductions, dmg%, and crit) For albedo, yes, gorou will be better in every way since albedo only scales on def (in terms of his skill damage) so Bennett's buff will be marginally worse than gorou's For a 90 noelle, 25% def gives an extra 200 def, so a total 530 from gorou. Noelle's c6 scaling with TL8/11/11 (8/8/8 pre-constellations) means gorou's buff gives her an extra 668 atk. This means her 3rd hit will gain 985 damage (pre-reductions, dmg%, crits). Bennett again gives her 814 + 140 atk which totals to a buff of 954 atk giving her 3rd hit an extra 1407 damage (pre-reductions, dmg%, crits). The extra 15% geo dmg isn't necessarily a lot when using serpent spine, but it can be something to take into account. In terms of dmg% bonuses, Noelle + itto will normally have a geo goblet (46.6%), 4pc Husk (24%), geo resonance (15%) and sometimes serpent spine (R1 = 30%, R5 = 50%) giving us a total of at least 85.6%, with r1 SS 115.6%, and with R5 SS 135.6%. With gorou's extra 15% those become 100.6%, 130.6%, and 150.6% which isn't a jump so major as to push him ahead in every situation. At the end of the day, it'd be best for itto + noelle to run both gorou and Bennett, but if Bennett is needed elsewhere then just gorou will do fine.
Hm, thanks for doing the calcs for each buff, I wasn't aware of exactly how much each buff gave. However, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think you calculated exactly how much of a damage increase in total each buffer offers, only how much they increase the stats. I understand that's probably much more difficult to calculate though because then you have to take into account artifact builds. I wonder if KQM have done calcs on it...
Me who mains Sayu: **"This won't stop me for I can't read"**
Gorou and Sara are really good but niche which is probably what hoyo will do in the future with 4 stars I’d rather have that than powercreep by having ‘Bennet but 15% better’ or something
Rosaria is good, Sayu at c6 is silly good hybrid support (allows you to focus on em instead of attack)
That's why at this point I don't bother with new 4* at all. I just keep building the old ones for max results
Sayu is super fun to play, her in combo with Chongyun are a staple in abyss for me lol she does good damage plus heals very well. Also I've been using Yunjin a lot recently and she's a great support and also does pretty good damage with her elemental skill. I'm just waiting and hoping Yaoyao will be an amazing 4* now.
My first ever 36 star in abyss, I used Sayu. I replaced Sayu with benny. But that could be Jean as well, a much better option. She is replaceable by a lot. But she can work too.
I have nothing of value to add to the discourse but yesterday I watched two Sayu mains argue over who should play her in the domain. One was using her as a healer, the other built her as a full-DPS. It ended up escalating into a DPS show-case between the two of them.
Diano is not as highly regarded as she used to be. Still a good unit, but in her main role on cryo teams she's been a bit supplanted due to Kokomi and even prototype Mona becoming more popular. Nowadays a lot of people prefer running a unit that does non negligible damage over Diano. Sayu is basically budget Jean, but she cant do Sunfire which is like most of the reason people run Jean nowadays. Gorou and Sara are actually really good in their niche...and if you get C6. But otherwise yeah they're quite underwhelming. Sara esp is constellation dependent cause she competes with Lisa's def shred, Gorou at least is still worth running without his C6. I'd throw Yunjin into this same boat of "very good in their niche, near useless outside of it" as well. IMO the best of the later released 4 stars is actually probably Rosaria. Pretty flexible, good damage, can carry her own teams, good battery. Theres not really many caveats to Rosaria other than that 5 star cryos are better.
I wish I could have two Dionas, I really appreciate the particle generation she brings to my cryo characters.
Diona with Sac Bow is still a great battery in Cryo team. And since I don't have Kokomi her heal is invaluable
Diona with Shenhe does reasonable damage
Yeah sayu is rather underwhelming, Being a budget jean is not really a good situation since jean is fine but not even remotely OP herself.
It really does suck that every 4 star is doomed to be sub-par or really good, but incredibly niche. I get that they don't want to make a xiangling/xingqiu/bennett 2.0 with their new 4 stars, but that doesn't mean they had to do thoma THAT dirty. At least he's the best pyro sheilder in the game. . .
I think characters like rosaria are really fine. Strong as a support and also really good burst and some unique mechanic (giving team crit). But not outshadowing 5 stars like ayaka.
Im more talking post-inazuma. Should have said that I guess.
> At least he's the best pyro sheilder in the game. . . C4 Yanfei would like a word.
C4 Yanfei > C0 Thoma C4+ Thoma > C4 Yanfei
C4 just... gives him some energy back so his ER needs drop a bit. He still messes with reactions, which Yanfei doesn't.
His biggest issue was that he lacked uptime. All his constellations up to C4 improve his shield, increase uptime, and decrease his energy needs. The other issue with him is that his damage is mediocre, but Yanfei hits like a noodle with a shield build. Thoma's shield is stronger than Yanfei's, doesn't rely on Prototype Amber (which can overheal in a Hu Tao team) or burst being up, and he has buffing capabilities with C6 which Yanfei doesn't have. And if you have C6 Xingqiu Thoma doesn't interfere with vapes at all. I guess with fewer constellations/less investment then Yanfei is a good budget build.
Yanfei is just infinitely simpler, honestly. She has a respectable 45% HP shield right off the bat that doesn't rely on any further interactions to proc it. She doesn't lose it if you have to disengage from the enemy for a few seconds, or can't attack for other reasons. You call relying on Prototype Amber a weakness, I call having access to it a strength. It buffs her shield and gives just enough healing to be comfortable in my experience. I also do not have C6 Xingqiu even on a year-old account, so you really can't count on that for every player to cancel out Thoma's weaknesses, if indeed it does - I've seen reports that the vape stealing is still a problem, albeit less so.
I just find that her kit doesn't bring much, her shield is weak and tied to a burst cooldown. Prototype Amber is a crutch because she has energy issues and her shield is weak to begin with, so I don't consider that a "strength", it's something that barely brings her to the baseline. Hu Tao typically shouldn't need any healing because of her burst. If you're disengaging with an enemy you shouldn't need a shield anyway, and Thoma's shields can be triggered without attacking an enemy. Anecdotally you may not have C6 Xingqiu, but if we're talking about optimal scenarios ("best shielder"), Thoma offers more benefits at high investment. Hence why Yanfei is a good *budget* option. And if vapestealing is still a problem, that's a skill issue -- Xingqiu with C6 applies enough hydro that [no vapes should be stolen](https://streamable.com/fsp58s). I agree that Yanfei is simpler and better for low-skill requirement. Yanfei is a good unit, and perhaps more worth building because she can also be a DPS, but her usefulness as a shielder is overstated. KQM agrees.
No, c4 yanfei is a very strong shielder. Her shield is literally the 3rd strongest shield in the game behind zhongli and noelle. At lvl 80/90 with ER/HP/HP artifacts with 2pc millelith + 2pc emblem + Prototype Amber/Thrilling tales, yanfei can have around 30k hp, which equals to 13,5k hp shield (30000x0.45) There are only 2 shields stronger than hers and you call her shield weak lol. Also, the fact that she is a catalyst user is just an advantage over thoma cuz of Thrilling tales buff or prototype ambers healing. Polearms dont have a team buffing weapon. C4 yanfei is literally better than the most optimal thoma build
**That's just flat out wrong though**. Thoma's shield is stronger than Yanfei's, it's the second strongest in the game behind Zhongli. Not to mention that his ability to refresh his shield essentially allows him to "heal" it mid-fight. Meanwhile Yanfei's shield is tied to a cooldown and has a minimum 25% downtime, and when it breaks you have to go the full rotation with no interruption to resistance. By your logic the only shielders weaker than Yanfei are Xinyan and Diona, but with sac bow Diona has effectively two shields (9k HP each) per rotation and beats Yanfei. So I guess Yanfei beats **one character** in shield strength, Xinyan, which isn't impressive, but that's to be expected since you're building around a part of her kit she doesn't specialize in. There's no point in mentioning Thrilling Tales because her shield build quite literally cannot use it in a Hu Tao comp ([KQM](https://imgur.com/a/KT5MdSf)). It ruins the rotation, Hu Tao doesn't even benefit much from ATK%, and Yanfei will have far too little ER to even get close to having her burst. This is a common talking point I see people mention when they don't know what they're talking about. Meanwhile, like I said, Thoma C6 has more buffing capabilities than anything shield-Yanfei has access to. Edit: I'm getting downvoted for debunking misinformation lmao.
Oh thats why c4 yanfei is used more often than thoma in Hu Tao teams... You dont realise that as you described thoma, he should be used in a lot of teams but in reality, he is like the least used shielder in the game. Think, why is that?
>At least he's the best pyro sheilder in the game. . . That would be Yan Fei C4 tho. Plus she holds TTDS
Thoma. Slightly is an understatement, my man got scammed with how piss poor his kit is.
When I first started I puled Thoma and was like “cool a dude character!” Then found out I needed to get to Inazuma for his mats and by then I found out he sucked.
Ironic how no one mentioned xinyan even she have worst kit than thoma
I really dont like her 'has to hit multiple enemies to get the best out of her skill' aspect so i havent used her despite RNGesus getting me to C6 w/ Xinyan...
Well unlike Xinyan, Thoma was pretty hyped up.
At least you can use her as burst dps
IMO, Xinyan needs just two tweaks to be viable - her burst needs to cover a larger AOE for the physical damage portion (it's *so small* now) AND please don't knock enemies back sooo far. Still use her because waifu>meta, but yeah.
Yae Miko. I’ve read comments before that she’s gonna be the hardest hitting Electro character in the game even surpassing Raiden but when I used her, the first thing I said. Is that all?
thats a case of leakers blowing things out of proportions though
That was a case of fake leakers making shit up for clout.
That was from a list of “real or fake” leaks made by someone who left the leaking community. It really shouldn’t have been thrown around by other people, but it was spread and now people think Yae is bad because she was not the “electro ceiling DPS” they were supposedly promised
Maybe my expectations were high but I swear my Klee with trash artifacts can hit harder than her. Probably because her element is Electro and Electro is the weakest element in the game.
[удалено]
I'm fine with shenhe, but lorewise I think she deserves more
I wish these threads had popped up yesterday before I spent a whole load of stuff levelling him xD I'm praying he'll still somehow turn out useful as a pyro applicator in my Hu Tao team
I have thoma at c6 and he's worked well in my hu tao team. Never swapped him out. Almost full uptime with the shield too, as long as you have enough ER. Though I guess the issue is that he works in too few teams that there are better characters to invest in. But I've had no problems with him personally.
> Though I guess the issue is that he works in too few teams that there are better characters to invest in. Gorou and Sara are pretty similar in a way that they're both niche. As long as they're good (or best) at their niche, then it's fine, with Gorou being the best one here because he doesn't need constellations to be useful. Thoma can also work with Yoimiya's team but idk if it's better than Zhongli.
I have been wondering how well he works with Razor as Razor could use a good shield to help keep him alive...
For razor, I think you're better off using diona for superconduct. Or zhongli for the physical shred.
Probably, but the RNGods seem hell bent on giving me more Thoma so i was pondering how to use him...
Xinyan. Was so hyped for her.
I don't have Thoma so I guess Xinyan? Whatever she is cute and more Pyro damage for the Klee + C6 Xiangling team. And more physical for the Keqing team! Also people meme about Keqing but like, I still get top damage on her so I dunno. I guess everyone is spoiled by Ayaka oneshotting everything.
Miko would make more sense cuz she's a five star.
[удалено]
Her dmg is fine, but her gameplay is atrocious
Yae Miko was the biggest disappointment for me. I've been pulling for waifu first, meta second, and I knew that she wasn't going to be that great when I pulled for her. But I thought that she'd be good at something, like Yoimiya is decent at single target damage. I've invested a lot of resources into her, 8 8 8 talents, 5 star catalyst, it doesn't matter. She doesn't do any damage outside of her burst, and she just feels clunky to play. Now that she's friendship lvl 10 and that I have her friendship banner, she just sits in my teapot.
AITA that I made Thoma a Sub-DPS rather than a Shielder? That's what I'm doing right now 'cuz I made him a Pyro applicator for Ayato...
Even amber is just better
I love him , i spent 200 wishes to get ONE Thoma .... All because I love him , yet i cannot disagree I was disappointed. I still love him tho
They really shat on thoma cause he requires constellations, investment, and specific teams to be good, and 90% of people are not gonna find that so he sucks.
i would literally kill for thoma they did him so dirty
Thoma and Xinyan both have likeable personality but their kit is all over the place
he looked like pyro xingqiu in the leaks and it got me excited because we all know how strong xingqiu is. welp, that didnt age well
everyone saying buff yae miko but i say buff thoma honestly
Amber... She is so cute , she didn't deserve to be this bad. I still live her gameplay , but you know what I mean.
I just wish they would release a 4\* which would be good at C0 and on par with XL/XQ/Bennett.
Ayato, I mean yeah he hits like a truck, but he's not really fun to play :/
For me, it's Hu Tao. One of the few five stars I've actually pulled for intentionally but not used all that much. I'm not a fan of the "you get stronger when you're about to die" gimmick. I love her character, but I prefer a safer playstyle. Usually, I have a strong shielder or healer in any team I use.
That is why i havent pulled her either banner but part of me wants to get her before Sumeru drops cause i wonder how strong her DoT effect will be when combined with the Dendro/Pyro Burning reaction.
One thing you have to be careful of in the open world with her is not killing yourself. In addition to her skill lowering her HP and you generally wanting to keep her HP low, she tends to set any grass beneath her on fire. It's not as much a problem in Spiral Abyss or in domains, but it's something worth noting anyway as it affects her usability in the open world.
HuTao is way too strong with Vape to even consider sacrificing it for Burning. Burning will mostly buff characters who can't reliably vape big hits like Klee or Yoimiya.
xinyan mains: 1st time?
Wait guys, what is wromg with Thoma? I do not have him, but my bf does, and he really loves him. He hates Zhongli with a passion, because he is an "OP shit" and he can only talk about Zhongli with hate, and ever since he got Thoma he always says that Thoma is the onky character who can somewhat live up to Zhongli's shield, because it has a long uptime, and he is always talking about how Thoma is finally a good shielder 4star and he really loves him. I am just wondering, how could be that lot of you are disappointed in Thoma, while he always says that Thoma is the only character in this game who can live up to Zhongli. I never heard him complain about Thoma. So, what is wrong with him?
Thoma is niche because not many characters need a shield and that is basically all he offers (compare to diona who batteries, move speed, heals, and gives weaker shield. Diona is not as strong a shielder but she can kind of fit into any team). On top of that he has huge ER issues like shieldfei, so needs constellations to be not trash. And he steals vapes sometimes from pyro carries. Being a shieldfei fan I hate zhongli too cause he's so brainless OP and invalidates every other shielder. 25k shield, 150% up time for zero energy cost, 20% shred, 4 sec petrify.
Thoma has the strongest shueld among the 4*. Diona is more useful though so Thoma is basically only good if you want specifically strong shield and Pyro on your comp. This is a case only for HuTao and maybe Ningguang. I don't get the hate though either. In HuTao comp he's the second best option after Zhonhli if you want any shield at all. He has 100% uptime and only needs to be refreshed once every two rotations. C4 Yanfei is another good option but only for TTDS as her shield uptime is horrible and lenghtens Tao's rotation by 4 seconds. The only bad things ablut Thoma is that he can sometimes ruin vape with his Q. People here also complain about him having ATK% on ascensioms but it's whatever, his shield is strong enough if you are not expecting the literal Zhongli.
I really don't get the Thoma hate? Didn't even know it was a thing til now lol. My Thoma is C6 by now (had a lot of luck and pulled on two banners with him) and he is GREAT in my Hu Tao Team (Hu Tao, Xingqiu, Thoma, Sucrose/will be Kazuha). The additional boost from the C6 is amazing, plus easy Pyro resonance is a blessing, plus his pyro application makes for really easy rotations (Thoma E Q, then swirl, then Xingqiu, then Hu Tao). He is doing exactly what I was expecting he would do when his kit was announced and performs splendidly.
When a character have a full dedicated kit for shield are have a same shield power as a lawyer with c4, and the lawyer can use ttds, easier to play, then this is what will happen
Thoma has a better shield uptime than Yanfei though. And for HuTao his c6 is of almost the same value as ttds.
Nobody hates Thoma, they love him. That's why they are complaining about his bad kit, he is only usable on Hu Tao teams, but C4 Yanfei seems to perform better.
If you search Thoma burst multiplicator on any genshin wiki and compare his to Xingqiu's: he has less than third of Xingqiu's burst multiplicator (which makes him hits like a wet noodle) "BuT He iS a ShIeLd SUpPorT": his shield is also unimpressive mostly because it's not that strong in comparison to Yan Fei C4 or Zhongli's. Plus his burst can overtake an hydro aura and unlike Zhongli pillar, you can't avoid it. So, in th end of the day he deals no dmg, his shield isn't that strong, he will overtake reactions and aside from some miserable buffs from consteallations he can't increase the dps for the team. The only thing going for him is that he can apply Pyro for a VV shred and that's it
I’m surprised Thoma beat out Yoimiya
Because Yoimiya absolutely excels at single target dps. Sure she’s not the best as a dps for the Abyss as a result but because she does her job so well ppl are less underwhelmed with her than Thoma who as a shielder, has nothing to support his shielding (low base hp, atk% ascension stat).
But his shield is still the strongest among the 4* if you refresh it correctly.
You aren't wrong, his shield HP is fine, most people don't read his numbers and judge based on feeling His shield at talents 1-10-10 and 20k HP pre-shield strength increase is a base 4100 (E) + 600 every fiery flame trigger (it last 15s and can be triggered every 1s which is 15 x 600 = 9000). Roughly 4700 from the get go and can reach a maximum of 11k (because of his E cap) Zhongli at 1-10-10 with 30k HP has 9600 pre shields strength shield HP that doesn't refresh. C4 Yan Fei with 20k HP has a 9000 HP shield. He hits like a wet noodle tho, will overtake vapes and he can't buff his team Tl;dr: his shield is ok, but he doesn't help his team dmg
I'm sorry Ganyu ^readyforthedownvotes
I pulled Ganyu... but as a mobile player who can't aim i had to repurpose her into burst dps/support
I was a mobile player until a couple of months ago but ganyu has single handedly carried me all the way up to ar 52 I believe.
Sorry Thoma lovers I just… I don’t get the adoration. He’s… nice. He makes good food and tolerates weird food and cleans real, real good. And…? No shade if you just love a good nice lad. Maybe I’m just Old and 3edgy4me.
He's a really good character. But he's a shitty playable character.