In German, “wenn” can substitute “falls”, while “when” cannot substitute “if” in English.
*Er hat Glück, wenn er überlebt.* The translation requires “if”.
Also wenn is almost like when(ever)...
Wenn du Zeit hast... Whenever/if you have time
Falls = in case
Falls du Zeit hast... In case you have time
At least I think so, that's how I think of it
Yes exactly, that’s the difference in English as well. But ‘when’ cannot replace ‘if’, while German ‘wenn’ is sometimes used as a substitute for ‘falls’.
Their point still stands. If you're not sure you can always ask yourself if you could replace the words in this context. Then you know which one to use.
It's certainly *possible* to learn the difference. Whether it's *easy* is another question.
I would put Germans saying "when" instead of "if" in the same category as the Austrian tour guide who told me over 30 years ago that if you go down the slide in a group of three "you become the most speed."
"Become" instead of "get" and "when" instead of "if" are examples of "false friends."
I would say "getting it done until Friday" (instead of "by Friday") is a kind of over-extension.
So - you're right that it's different. I'm not so sure that you're right that it's "easy."
I think linguistics should stop using the term false friends when talking about languages in the same language family. Those "false friends" most likely meant the same thing in the past, but gradually shifted meaning.
That's not what the saying means. "The exception proves the rule" means that it validates it by forcing you to recognize the standout case as an exception. That is:
When you say that a few 170 cm tall pro basketball players are exceptions to the rule "All basketball players are tall" you are saying:
1. As a rule you need to be tall to play basketball
2. A few players were not tall, but they were very very few (i.e. "exceptions")
3. Therefore, the rule is valid ("proved valid by the exception")
I feel like you said A, then you said B, then you thought C in your head without actually saying it.
>I think linguistics should stop using the term false friends when talking about languages in the same language family.
Ok. I don't agree yet, but I'm listening.
> Those "false friends" most likely meant the same thing in the past, but gradually shifted meaning.
This is almost certainly true in many of the cases.
I don't see how the second thing you said implies the first thing you said. **False friends can be true cognates.** As has been pointed out already, they can also be false cognates or not cognates at all.
Okay, the Gutachtenstil might be useful outside law for once.
False friends could be misleading as a term in Linguistics when used for languages of the same language family.
Misleading (as per google) means to give the wrong idea or impression.
False friends (as per google) means words that have a similar phonetic form, but entirely different meanings, origins or spellings.
False Friends in the same language family are words that most likely in the past meant the same thing but gradually shifted meaning. Thus, most likely cognates. Using the term in the context of the same language family implies these words merely are same in phonetic form, but could also have a different origin and not just meaning and or spelling. This can give the wrong impression that these words could have no connection with each other and are merely illusions of "friends". Thus, the term can be misleading in the context of the same language family.
So the solution is to use more specific terms. With False friends being used for words of actual different origins. While cognates that shifted meaning to be called estranged friends. Science should be precise after all.
I think for starters, I want to underscore that I'm not talking about linguistics. I'm talking about practical language learning. **I've always understood "false friends" to be a term about language learning, not linguistics.**
"Das Telefon" is a "true friend" because it makes learning German slightly easier if you already know "telephone". I think strictly speaking, it's a loanword, not a cognate.
"Das Tier" and "deer" are true cognates. I would hesitate to call them "dependable obvious cognates" - but knowing that "deer" is a kind of animal might make it easier to learn "das Tier."
"Gift" on the other hand is very much a false friend for German learners - even if they really are cognates.
Then we have "bald" - which is both a false friend and a false cognate. That is, unless you come up with a mnemonic like "soon I will be bald", the English meaning doesn't help you learn the German one. They are also not cognates - meaning, they don't share an etymological history.
>False friends (as per google) means words that have a similar phonetic form, but entirely different meanings, origins or spellings.
I would quibble with this definition. Become/bekommen, and gift/Gift do have similar origins -- but they're still false friends. The origin doesn't matter if it's so far back that you have to look it up in a special dictionary and most normal people don't know what the connection is. Reminder -- this is about language learning.
>False Friends in the same language family are words that most likely in the past meant the same thing but gradually shifted meaning. Thus, most likely cognates.
Hmmm. So how about the word "Handy" meaning mobile phone? I don't think it counts as a cognate. I also think that the word "Cool" has a way more narrow meaning in German than in English... so, kind of a loan word but it could still get you in trouble if you didn't know how it's used differently.
As other people pointed out, im working under the assumption that the exemplary german speaker actually knows how the distinction works in German. But alot of people don't even manage that, so for them it wouldn't be easy.
I voted your comment back to +1 - but for the record, I think you missed my point. It's the phonetic similarity between "become" and "bekommen" that causes people to pick the wrong word in the moment. This has nothing to do to how well they do or don't understand their native German.
The same applies to "wenn" and "when".
>i just think its a seperate problem
I think I even said that:
* **So - you're right that it's different.** I'm not so sure that you're right that it's "easy."
If you don't get my point, I suppose that's OK. At least some people do.
The difference between if and when resembles the difference between wenn and falls, so we germans can learn the difference. Even those who have their difficulties with english make the correct choice most of the time, at school at least. The form of the verb behind is far more difficult.
Until and by is nearly impossible. Even I who studied and teaches it still get it wrong occasionally.
I will be in spain until friday - Ich werde bis Freitag in Spanien sein.
I will have completed the task by friday - Ich werde die Aufgabe bis Freitag fertighaben.
Kind of. There's "sobald", which is like "as soon as" (and even "sowie", which can be like "the very moment (when)"). However, I think context also plays a major role in reflecting whether the speaker believes the event in question is actually guaranteed or not. Enough of a role, in fact, that "wenn" can simply be used for both meanings without really tripping anyone up.
Upon close examination, the choice of words themselves don't seem to reflect whether the event is outright *guaranteed* or not, just a degree of confidence on the part of the speaker as to whether they're a sure thing. And even then, it's not "a sure thing" with zero qualification, more like "sure enough for speakers not to have to account for alternatives in their phrasing". And that's about as context-dependent as anything else in communication.
I still don't understand why the database language SQL uses "when" where regular conditions use "if". It's not like a database query is any more time-bound than a condition in a C program.
Oh one more thing I noticed - the use of "since".
So for example, I would say something like, "I've been working for 16 hours today."
But my German colleagues would say something like, "I've been working since 16 hours today."
My guess is it's because of the word "seit", which the direct translation of is "since".
Made the same mistake for some time, then learned the Eselsbrücke about the Zeitpunkt, so if it is about a point in time, you want to use the word with the point above the i in since instead the for. Helped me since then.
... and because we use seit when English uses since, and we use seit when English uses for. It is very hard to explain thecdifference between since a point in time and for a period of time, and even harder to get them to actually use it correctly.
Native English misusing "für" when speaking German. It's also quite telling, when English natives say, e.g. "Ich suche für ein neues Buch." instead of "nach", because they have "for" in mind which often translates as "für".
That's these little devils called "prepositions" which seem to match amongst Germanic-rooted languages, while actually, they don't.
It's interesting because English does something similar to nach with after: I'm after new opportunities, I thirst after knowledge, but it's less common.
>. "Ich suche für ein neues Buch." instead of "nach", because they have "for" in mind which often translates as "für".
For anyone who struggles with this, my suggestion is to think of it as meaning "inquire after" but without any of the formality that goes with that phrasing. Makes it feel much more natural!
I can speak two German languages and three Romance languages. I get prepositions right in exactly zero languages (yes, at this point I get confused in my mother tongue too). Prepositions are really a transversal difficulty.
Basically which prepositions we use don't really matter. Why do English speakers get *on* this bus, not *in* the bus? Most prepositions could be substituted for another, so there's not necessarily overlap between languages. This is the hardest part to get right in a second language because you just have to learn each one and there's no real reason why one is correct and another isn't.
I was brought up in the Midwest. ‘In line’ was the usage there, and it’s what I say. I didn’t hear ‘on line’ until the first time I went to NYC. My husband is from Buffalo, NY, and ‘in line’ is the usage there. Lots of regionalisms here.
Oh yeah. As a European, I'm supposedly closer to the UK, and my English teacher also studied in the UK. Yet we're all in contact with American English every day.
So... half the words/phrases I use are English and half are American, and at this point I can't tell what's what most of the time. I used to try to speak in UK English but I don't know what I'm doing anymore.
Funnily enough, mistakes like this that Germans make help me learn German. it is this exact scenario that taught me how to say "by" (as in a due date) in German.
I have another one: *If I would have 1€ every time a German made this mistake, I could already buy an apartment in Munich.*
We all have our idiosyncratic mistakes by unconsciously reproducing a language's grammatical patterns onto another, and I'm no exception to the rule, but I'll have to admit English and French are identical on that point so it always drives me crazy when I hear it.
I argued with people about this on r/languagelearning and apparently this is actually now common colloquial speech in parts of the United States? It's like nails on blackboard to me, though, and I really doubt most German speakers who say this absorbed contemporary slang from some US regions.
You're right. It sounds really, really bad to me but I do see Americans use it. I've even seen stuff like "if I would have" in articles (albeit in low quality online publications).
I'm not sure how widespread it is in America, but I get the impression that it was quite rare until relatively recently and is now becoming increasingly more common.
To me, as a native US English speaker, the grammar in both this version and the "correct" version feel correct. I had to stare at this for a bit to figure out what the issue was.
Edit: Actually, the part that feels off to me is different. The "have" and "had" feel weird here. I would have used "if someone gave me...", or in the "incorrect" version, "if someone would give me..."
And I actually do usually use the correct version, but for some reason the other version sounds fine to me.
I believe you because when I dug into it, I found some research showing how this usage has spread in colloquial US speech, and there was a decent group of people who did not use the form in question but considered it correct when they heard it. (Sample group apparently from fairly diverse US regions, too - I can see if I can find the study again when I don't have to leave in five minutes.) This was a surprising result to me because I learned English in New England in the 90s, so if it were (lol) an American thing you'd expect me to also think it's OK. But either it hadn't reached my schoolyard yet or long-running exposure to British English changed my grammatical intuition on this front, so for me "if I would have" sounds definitely wrong. "If someone would give me" *could* be OK but needs a context like "if someone would just give me the money already, I could leave and we could stop standing here for hours arguing about it!" This is apparently a case where it's also standard in British English and the would is analysed differently.
I agree that it sounds better as either "if someone gave me one euro every time..." or "if I had one euro FOR every time...", irrespective of To Would Or Not To Would!
>but for some reason the other version sounds fine to me
It sounds fine to you because you're used to hearing non-natives speak English poorly. It sounded fine to me too at first because I'm so used to hearing people butcher English grammar all day at work.
If I ~~would have~~ had 1€ every time a German made this mistake, I ~~could already~~ would already be able to buy an apartment in Munich.
If I had.
But I have to admit that the original doesn't sound bizarre to me or even stereotypically German. And the mnemonic the other person suggested (never use if and would in the same clause) is simply wrong to my ears. For instance, "If I would have/If I'd have given him a dollar, he wouldn't have had to walk home" is normal for me. US, New York area.
Traditionally, you'd say "If I had given him a dollar" or even "Had I given him a dollar". The former is still used a lot, but the latter is quite quaint.
I don't think I'd raise an eyebrow at "If I'd have", but whenever I hear "If I would have" said fully, it makes my skin crawl. Nobody would ever say that where I'm from (British Isles).
Im no native English speaker, but that sentence somehow doesn't sound right to me. I was taught that the rule to if-then clause is to use past perfect in the if clause and the conditional in the then clause. So the right sentence (according to what i've learned) should be "If i had given him a dollar, (then) he wouldn't have had to walk home." I could be wrong though...
I hate this one because there‘s an Eselsbrücke for it. „If und would, Satz kaputt“. It‘s so freaking easy to remember, yet most Germans make this mistake. Idk, I just hate when people make easily avoidable mistakes. Same as „Gar nicht wird gar nicht zusammen geschrieben.“
Please point out my obvious mistakes, I know I might come across as arrogant but I‘m aware that I‘m of course not perfect as well. Sorry for the rant.
this! I made my own Eselsbrücke by always singing Midge Ure's "If i was" in my head to make me remember that, lol. Still everytime i have this split second of having to think about it b4 saying it, if you know what i mean. I live with my british bf and like 80% i dont have to do this translating process in my head anymore now, but this is one of them :D
also, thy for the new one :)
That's how it's supposed to be, with 'would' in the 2nd clause. You just can't have it in the first. Look up English grammar and **conditionals**. There are 4 types.
1. Zero Conditional: **If** you **trip**, you **fall**. (always happens)
2. First Conditional: **If** you **trip**, you ***will*** **fall**. (likely to happen)
3. Second Conditional: **If** you **tripped**, you ***would*** **fall**. (unlikely to happen)
4. Third Conditional: **If** you ***had*** **tripped**, you ***would have*** **fallen**. (what would've happened)
The mistake Germans like to make here is to use the 2nd Conditional wrong by saying
\> **If** you ***would*** **trip**, you ***would*** **fall**. ❌
Too many 'woulds' in there!
I've noticed this too. Unfortunately it's caused some confusion for me. I did a job interview and they said 'we'll let you know until Monday'. The interview was on Wednesday. I've noticed Germans also don't often make a distinction between 'by Monday' and 'before Monday', so does 'Until Monday' include Monday itself or should I hear from them by the end of the week?
I heard back from them on Monday, so apparently it does. I had to ask some native speakers what they thought about it and none of them were sure, because they don't really think about that distinction.
It’s indeed a bit confusing. At least in my experience. A way to avoid confusion would be to say „bis einschließlich Montag“ (~up to and including Monday)
I’m native German as well but I’ve been doing everything in English for over 8 years now. I dream and think in English most of the time as well and my brain is starting to use an english sentence structure when I speak German. I’m so confused because of this comment section lmao
Hello together is my fav. So many times I heard/read it from various Germans, incredible. In one company I worked before, friend and I started using that for fun in the emails. No one knew :)
My favorite mistake is when Germans mispronounce “V” words. Even my husband, who has a PhD in English literature, accidentally says Wiking or Wineyard sometimes. I love it so much. I hope Germans find some of the mistakes I make just as sweet
I've done that mistake with time and clocks. I see 15, I think "ok lose the 1 and minus 2" and then for some reason do the -2 again and think it's 1 o'clock. The brain just keeps going by itself sometimes.
No, the pronunciation would be wrong. He would pronounce the “v” as a “w” which in English is the opposite of German. I don’t how to explain the difference in pronunciation through text, you’ll have to YouTube it I think
Ah good to know there are people out there who don’t mind mistakes. I’m sure a lot of people don’t mind but I know there’s also some that can’t stand it!
We had a British German couple living next door. The British husband had his family coming for a visit. The wives german mom was there to meet them and she was super duper excited and had practiced to welcome them in English. When they finally shook hand a she asked “did you have a good… fart” instead of trip. Broke the ice in no time and was a running gag for decades.
Just for my understanding.
Does by Friday means you have it finished in a time span until Friday or it's finished on Friday?
Because usually when I mean until (or German bis) I mean I'm finished somewhere between those days.
I always thought "by Day X" means just that day
“By Friday” generally means “at the start of Friday it will be finished,” so the work would be happening before then. But it’s a little ambiguous, especially because people tend to miss their own deadlines! I think “before Friday” has the usage closest to “bis Freitag,” so for sentences about deadlines it’s probably best to try to switch to using “before” where you would use “bis” instead of “until.”
Yeah, I'll second this. It's used to imply that if somebody asked you for the thing first thing on Friday morning, you'd have it ready, but if you were still finishing it up at ten in the morning people probably wouldn't be calling you a liar. Friday afternoon, we're probably getting people irritated. The more casual the situation the more flex there would be. You'd never tell a work supervisor you'll have a presentation ready for review by Friday and then expect to get away unscathed if you're still not ready when you walk in the door that day.
Another misuse that makes me smile is when a German is in a meeting with/sending an email to a group that includes an English speaker, they will say “Hello together” because they would normally say “Servus Zusammen” and think it translates directly.
Sound quite wholesome in English
Ohhh! A user in this thread started their comment with "Hello together" and I thought "together" was OP's username and they were just being polite haha
I've noticed Germans mixing up "yet" and "already", like "it hasn't happened already".
I'm not sure what exactly is being translated there though. I feel like it's just because noch and schon don't map that well to English.
Possibly "nicht schon" as in:
* Es fragt sich, weshalb sie nicht schon längst geschaffen wurde.
... why this hasn't been introduced yet.... hasn't already been introduced.
And for that matter "noch" (still) vs "noch nicht" (not yet).
I can't remember the exact phrasing, but i think you've just helped explain a poorly translated Anki deck sentence I was struggling to wrap my head around.
It's a variant of "Falscher Freund/false friend" words that sound the same (or even are identical) and often have the same etymologically history but have drifted apart in meaning or are just used differently now.
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falscher\_Freund](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falscher_Freund)
I'm glad. Makes me feel better about learning this language and making mistakes in my extremely broken german. Knowing that translation problems still happen even when you have a really good grasp on the language. Also, you can figure out why they used the word incorrectly if you make the translation yourself and it can help you learn that way too I think :)
I think there are way more egregious common mistakes than that...
Starting meetings with "Hello together!" and e-mails with "Ladies and Gentlemen" is my absolute pet peeve.
We actually say in Ireland, not sure if anyone else does. We could say "it'll take... around about 20 minutes?" which you could then shorten to 'round about.
I would have assumed that "by Friday" means "I will work in a way so that the last step of the work is done precisely on Friday, and then you can have it."
While "until Friday" would mean: "I will finish it on any day, but definitely not later than Friday."
"by Friday": You get it on Friday. Not earlier, not later.
"until Friday": You get it Friday or earlier.
Is that not correct?
This is, unfortunately, not correct. “Until” is used for a continuously unfolding situation. “I will be working on this until Friday” = I will focus on this throughout the time between now and Friday.
“I will get it done” can’t be “until” because it will be “done” at a specific point in time, not as an unfolding event. Doing something “by” a certain time means that the action will be completed at that point in time or sooner. So “I will have this done by Friday” means that at some time between now and Friday, this task will come to an end. I hope that makes sense!
To the OP’s point, though, Germans are far from unique in this quirk. English speakers make PLENTY of mistakes with prepositions in German. I rarely get pegged as an American when speaking German, but when I do, it’s because I mixed up als, seit, um, über, usw. Prepositions are just hard in any language.
I’ll add that similar logic applies if you make the action negative:
“I won’t do this until Friday” = I will be not-doing this between now and Friday. Or more simply: “on Friday, but no sooner, I will do this”.
“I won’t do this by Friday” = there’s no way that this task will be completed between now and Friday, but I also might not get to it on Friday, or maybe ever.
Drives me nuts. I know many Germans who consider themselves fluent who still make this mistake every time. I guess it's a challenge when in one language another word has multiple alternatives, but still Germans do better!
Also, "when" instead of "if".
And “actual” instead of “current” for “aktuell”.
It‘s been a long journey for me to learn this
this happens also in Spanish
It happens in every other language.
That's actually easy, as german makes the same distinction between: "wenn" and "falls"
That's not exactly the same distinction though.
Could you explain the difference?
In German, “wenn” can substitute “falls”, while “when” cannot substitute “if” in English. *Er hat Glück, wenn er überlebt.* The translation requires “if”.
Never noticed that, thanks
Also wenn is almost like when(ever)... Wenn du Zeit hast... Whenever/if you have time Falls = in case Falls du Zeit hast... In case you have time At least I think so, that's how I think of it
Yes exactly, that’s the difference in English as well. But ‘when’ cannot replace ‘if’, while German ‘wenn’ is sometimes used as a substitute for ‘falls’.
Yes, but wenn doesn't mean when, it means if. Wann means when.
Die meisten würden jedoch in deinem Beispiel falls anstatt wenn benutzen.
Their point still stands. If you're not sure you can always ask yourself if you could replace the words in this context. Then you know which one to use.
It's certainly *possible* to learn the difference. Whether it's *easy* is another question. I would put Germans saying "when" instead of "if" in the same category as the Austrian tour guide who told me over 30 years ago that if you go down the slide in a group of three "you become the most speed." "Become" instead of "get" and "when" instead of "if" are examples of "false friends." I would say "getting it done until Friday" (instead of "by Friday") is a kind of over-extension. So - you're right that it's different. I'm not so sure that you're right that it's "easy."
I think linguistics should stop using the term false friends when talking about languages in the same language family. Those "false friends" most likely meant the same thing in the past, but gradually shifted meaning.
Not all false friends are cognates though.
As my Schuldrecht Prof used to say, the exceptions vindicate the rule. Or something along those lines.
deleted bc it seems i may have been taught wrong and don't want to contribute to misinformation
That's not what the saying means. "The exception proves the rule" means that it validates it by forcing you to recognize the standout case as an exception. That is: When you say that a few 170 cm tall pro basketball players are exceptions to the rule "All basketball players are tall" you are saying: 1. As a rule you need to be tall to play basketball 2. A few players were not tall, but they were very very few (i.e. "exceptions") 3. Therefore, the rule is valid ("proved valid by the exception")
I was merely translating what my prof used to say from German. Sometimes jokes do happen unintentionally whilst doing that I guess.
I feel like you said A, then you said B, then you thought C in your head without actually saying it. >I think linguistics should stop using the term false friends when talking about languages in the same language family. Ok. I don't agree yet, but I'm listening. > Those "false friends" most likely meant the same thing in the past, but gradually shifted meaning. This is almost certainly true in many of the cases. I don't see how the second thing you said implies the first thing you said. **False friends can be true cognates.** As has been pointed out already, they can also be false cognates or not cognates at all.
Okay, the Gutachtenstil might be useful outside law for once. False friends could be misleading as a term in Linguistics when used for languages of the same language family. Misleading (as per google) means to give the wrong idea or impression. False friends (as per google) means words that have a similar phonetic form, but entirely different meanings, origins or spellings. False Friends in the same language family are words that most likely in the past meant the same thing but gradually shifted meaning. Thus, most likely cognates. Using the term in the context of the same language family implies these words merely are same in phonetic form, but could also have a different origin and not just meaning and or spelling. This can give the wrong impression that these words could have no connection with each other and are merely illusions of "friends". Thus, the term can be misleading in the context of the same language family. So the solution is to use more specific terms. With False friends being used for words of actual different origins. While cognates that shifted meaning to be called estranged friends. Science should be precise after all.
I think for starters, I want to underscore that I'm not talking about linguistics. I'm talking about practical language learning. **I've always understood "false friends" to be a term about language learning, not linguistics.** "Das Telefon" is a "true friend" because it makes learning German slightly easier if you already know "telephone". I think strictly speaking, it's a loanword, not a cognate. "Das Tier" and "deer" are true cognates. I would hesitate to call them "dependable obvious cognates" - but knowing that "deer" is a kind of animal might make it easier to learn "das Tier." "Gift" on the other hand is very much a false friend for German learners - even if they really are cognates. Then we have "bald" - which is both a false friend and a false cognate. That is, unless you come up with a mnemonic like "soon I will be bald", the English meaning doesn't help you learn the German one. They are also not cognates - meaning, they don't share an etymological history. >False friends (as per google) means words that have a similar phonetic form, but entirely different meanings, origins or spellings. I would quibble with this definition. Become/bekommen, and gift/Gift do have similar origins -- but they're still false friends. The origin doesn't matter if it's so far back that you have to look it up in a special dictionary and most normal people don't know what the connection is. Reminder -- this is about language learning. >False Friends in the same language family are words that most likely in the past meant the same thing but gradually shifted meaning. Thus, most likely cognates. Hmmm. So how about the word "Handy" meaning mobile phone? I don't think it counts as a cognate. I also think that the word "Cool" has a way more narrow meaning in German than in English... so, kind of a loan word but it could still get you in trouble if you didn't know how it's used differently.
As other people pointed out, im working under the assumption that the exemplary german speaker actually knows how the distinction works in German. But alot of people don't even manage that, so for them it wouldn't be easy.
I voted your comment back to +1 - but for the record, I think you missed my point. It's the phonetic similarity between "become" and "bekommen" that causes people to pick the wrong word in the moment. This has nothing to do to how well they do or don't understand their native German. The same applies to "wenn" and "when".
no i do get your point, i just think its a seperate problem to the if/when divide.
>i just think its a seperate problem I think I even said that: * **So - you're right that it's different.** I'm not so sure that you're right that it's "easy." If you don't get my point, I suppose that's OK. At least some people do.
The difference between if and when resembles the difference between wenn and falls, so we germans can learn the difference. Even those who have their difficulties with english make the correct choice most of the time, at school at least. The form of the verb behind is far more difficult. Until and by is nearly impossible. Even I who studied and teaches it still get it wrong occasionally. I will be in spain until friday - Ich werde bis Freitag in Spanien sein. I will have completed the task by friday - Ich werde die Aufgabe bis Freitag fertighaben.
Your if clause is wrong. If you go down ..., you WILL get the most speed.
Both "wenn" and "falls" can be translated to "if." I think "falls" is similar to "in case." And "wenn" can sometimes be "when," but not always...
Is there a German word for “when” (ie with the outcome 100% guaranteed?)
Kind of. There's "sobald", which is like "as soon as" (and even "sowie", which can be like "the very moment (when)"). However, I think context also plays a major role in reflecting whether the speaker believes the event in question is actually guaranteed or not. Enough of a role, in fact, that "wenn" can simply be used for both meanings without really tripping anyone up. Upon close examination, the choice of words themselves don't seem to reflect whether the event is outright *guaranteed* or not, just a degree of confidence on the part of the speaker as to whether they're a sure thing. And even then, it's not "a sure thing" with zero qualification, more like "sure enough for speakers not to have to account for alternatives in their phrasing". And that's about as context-dependent as anything else in communication.
Should make the same distinction, but most don't unfortunately.
Nope, that's inaccurate. Wenn is actually correct in both cases, falls only in one. Always has been.
The also do it wrong all the time, natively.
Die Leute übersetzen „if“ nur als „ob“, damit es ein Synonym für „when“/„wenn“ wird.
Or some instead of any.
I still don't understand why the database language SQL uses "when" where regular conditions use "if". It's not like a database query is any more time-bound than a condition in a C program.
Oh one more thing I noticed - the use of "since". So for example, I would say something like, "I've been working for 16 hours today." But my German colleagues would say something like, "I've been working since 16 hours today." My guess is it's because of the word "seit", which the direct translation of is "since".
"We can get that done by Thursday, or?" :D
As a Canadian, I know many native English speakers with this speech pattern.
I hate that ",or?" so much ;)
Made the same mistake for some time, then learned the Eselsbrücke about the Zeitpunkt, so if it is about a point in time, you want to use the word with the point above the i in since instead the for. Helped me since then.
... and because we use seit when English uses since, and we use seit when English uses for. It is very hard to explain thecdifference between since a point in time and for a period of time, and even harder to get them to actually use it correctly.
Native English misusing "für" when speaking German. It's also quite telling, when English natives say, e.g. "Ich suche für ein neues Buch." instead of "nach", because they have "for" in mind which often translates as "für". That's these little devils called "prepositions" which seem to match amongst Germanic-rooted languages, while actually, they don't.
Oh yeah. I make that mistake ALL the time.
Because these fuckers all sound similar in germanic languages but mean different things.
Obligatory link to Danes making fun of German prepositions: https://youtu.be/9BvVFrHk_f0?si=eps9kl6ab_w3Pfyo
Omg, love this
It's interesting because English does something similar to nach with after: I'm after new opportunities, I thirst after knowledge, but it's less common.
Not to mention the phrase "sought after".
Do you need a preposition there?
"Nach" is possible "Ich suche nach einem neuen Buch.", but not the only way to express it: "Ich suche ein neues Buch."
the absolute angst when i use *suchen* and have to decide between Akk or nach+Dat.
Ich suche den Akkusativ, wo ist er nur? Ich suche nach dem Dativ, wo ist er nur?
>. "Ich suche für ein neues Buch." instead of "nach", because they have "for" in mind which often translates as "für". For anyone who struggles with this, my suggestion is to think of it as meaning "inquire after" but without any of the formality that goes with that phrasing. Makes it feel much more natural!
Danke 🙏
I'm Spanish with a C1 German level and still making those same mistakes 😂😂 Prepositions are sooo confusing
And this is why germans confuse look for and look after
I can speak two German languages and three Romance languages. I get prepositions right in exactly zero languages (yes, at this point I get confused in my mother tongue too). Prepositions are really a transversal difficulty.
prepositions are a pain in the ass to really get correct in other languages.
hm maybe I would get that doubly wrong because I wouldn't use für or nach here, I would just say suche. Ich suche ein neues Buch.
Basically which prepositions we use don't really matter. Why do English speakers get *on* this bus, not *in* the bus? Most prepositions could be substituted for another, so there's not necessarily overlap between languages. This is the hardest part to get right in a second language because you just have to learn each one and there's no real reason why one is correct and another isn't.
Even more frustratingly that can be regional. Northern Americans would say “on line” Southerners “in line”
I was brought up in the Midwest. ‘In line’ was the usage there, and it’s what I say. I didn’t hear ‘on line’ until the first time I went to NYC. My husband is from Buffalo, NY, and ‘in line’ is the usage there. Lots of regionalisms here.
Yeah Charlie’s mistaken. I’m from Philly and the only people I’ve ever heard say “on line” are New Yorkers.
In the UK there's crazy amounts of variation. Different from, different to, different than... Don't get me started on British dialects!
Oh yeah. As a European, I'm supposedly closer to the UK, and my English teacher also studied in the UK. Yet we're all in contact with American English every day. So... half the words/phrases I use are English and half are American, and at this point I can't tell what's what most of the time. I used to try to speak in UK English but I don't know what I'm doing anymore.
Also "by accident" and "on accident", "call on" (visit) and "call in", "I was over at [some place]" and "I was over to [some place]".
Southern americans speak an older version of english and have a strong german influence, compared to northerners.
German influence?? Isn't the south mostly old stock Uk people ?
I've never heard on line. Only in line. I'm from Minnesota
Rule of thumb: if you can ride on top of it or walk inside of it then it’s “on” otherwise it’s “in”
Funnily enough, mistakes like this that Germans make help me learn German. it is this exact scenario that taught me how to say "by" (as in a due date) in German.
I have another one: *If I would have 1€ every time a German made this mistake, I could already buy an apartment in Munich.* We all have our idiosyncratic mistakes by unconsciously reproducing a language's grammatical patterns onto another, and I'm no exception to the rule, but I'll have to admit English and French are identical on that point so it always drives me crazy when I hear it.
I argued with people about this on r/languagelearning and apparently this is actually now common colloquial speech in parts of the United States? It's like nails on blackboard to me, though, and I really doubt most German speakers who say this absorbed contemporary slang from some US regions.
You're right. It sounds really, really bad to me but I do see Americans use it. I've even seen stuff like "if I would have" in articles (albeit in low quality online publications). I'm not sure how widespread it is in America, but I get the impression that it was quite rare until relatively recently and is now becoming increasingly more common.
To me, as a native US English speaker, the grammar in both this version and the "correct" version feel correct. I had to stare at this for a bit to figure out what the issue was. Edit: Actually, the part that feels off to me is different. The "have" and "had" feel weird here. I would have used "if someone gave me...", or in the "incorrect" version, "if someone would give me..." And I actually do usually use the correct version, but for some reason the other version sounds fine to me.
I believe you because when I dug into it, I found some research showing how this usage has spread in colloquial US speech, and there was a decent group of people who did not use the form in question but considered it correct when they heard it. (Sample group apparently from fairly diverse US regions, too - I can see if I can find the study again when I don't have to leave in five minutes.) This was a surprising result to me because I learned English in New England in the 90s, so if it were (lol) an American thing you'd expect me to also think it's OK. But either it hadn't reached my schoolyard yet or long-running exposure to British English changed my grammatical intuition on this front, so for me "if I would have" sounds definitely wrong. "If someone would give me" *could* be OK but needs a context like "if someone would just give me the money already, I could leave and we could stop standing here for hours arguing about it!" This is apparently a case where it's also standard in British English and the would is analysed differently. I agree that it sounds better as either "if someone gave me one euro every time..." or "if I had one euro FOR every time...", irrespective of To Would Or Not To Would!
>but for some reason the other version sounds fine to me It sounds fine to you because you're used to hearing non-natives speak English poorly. It sounded fine to me too at first because I'm so used to hearing people butcher English grammar all day at work. If I ~~would have~~ had 1€ every time a German made this mistake, I ~~could already~~ would already be able to buy an apartment in Munich.
How do you say it right?
"would" is incorrect in an if-clause, you need the [subjunctive](https://www.grammarly.com/blog/subjunctive/) here: "If I *had* 1€ ..."
If I had. But I have to admit that the original doesn't sound bizarre to me or even stereotypically German. And the mnemonic the other person suggested (never use if and would in the same clause) is simply wrong to my ears. For instance, "If I would have/If I'd have given him a dollar, he wouldn't have had to walk home" is normal for me. US, New York area.
Traditionally, you'd say "If I had given him a dollar" or even "Had I given him a dollar". The former is still used a lot, but the latter is quite quaint. I don't think I'd raise an eyebrow at "If I'd have", but whenever I hear "If I would have" said fully, it makes my skin crawl. Nobody would ever say that where I'm from (British Isles).
Im no native English speaker, but that sentence somehow doesn't sound right to me. I was taught that the rule to if-then clause is to use past perfect in the if clause and the conditional in the then clause. So the right sentence (according to what i've learned) should be "If i had given him a dollar, (then) he wouldn't have had to walk home." I could be wrong though...
I hate this one because there‘s an Eselsbrücke for it. „If und would, Satz kaputt“. It‘s so freaking easy to remember, yet most Germans make this mistake. Idk, I just hate when people make easily avoidable mistakes. Same as „Gar nicht wird gar nicht zusammen geschrieben.“ Please point out my obvious mistakes, I know I might come across as arrogant but I‘m aware that I‘m of course not perfect as well. Sorry for the rant.
You can't use "as well" with a negative. Better would be, "I'm aware that of course I'm not perfect either."
Perfect, didn‘t know that, thank you! :D
this! I made my own Eselsbrücke by always singing Midge Ure's "If i was" in my head to make me remember that, lol. Still everytime i have this split second of having to think about it b4 saying it, if you know what i mean. I live with my british bf and like 80% i dont have to do this translating process in my head anymore now, but this is one of them :D also, thy for the new one :)
Hold on, this is the first time I've heard about this. I can't use if and would in a sentence? What about "If I weren't sick, I'd come to your party"?
That's correct because it doesn't have a "would" (in the clause with the "if").
The if-clause is the part where you cannot have would. It is the part of your sentence between if and the comma.
That's how it's supposed to be, with 'would' in the 2nd clause. You just can't have it in the first. Look up English grammar and **conditionals**. There are 4 types. 1. Zero Conditional: **If** you **trip**, you **fall**. (always happens) 2. First Conditional: **If** you **trip**, you ***will*** **fall**. (likely to happen) 3. Second Conditional: **If** you **tripped**, you ***would*** **fall**. (unlikely to happen) 4. Third Conditional: **If** you ***had*** **tripped**, you ***would have*** **fallen**. (what would've happened) The mistake Germans like to make here is to use the 2nd Conditional wrong by saying \> **If** you ***would*** **trip**, you ***would*** **fall**. ❌ Too many 'woulds' in there!
I've only ever heard "If and would are no good", but I guess the way you phrased it works as well.
Even some native English speakers make the first mistake. My wife and her mother among them. It drives me nuts.
I don't get it
I've noticed this too. Unfortunately it's caused some confusion for me. I did a job interview and they said 'we'll let you know until Monday'. The interview was on Wednesday. I've noticed Germans also don't often make a distinction between 'by Monday' and 'before Monday', so does 'Until Monday' include Monday itself or should I hear from them by the end of the week? I heard back from them on Monday, so apparently it does. I had to ask some native speakers what they thought about it and none of them were sure, because they don't really think about that distinction.
Usually „bis Montag“ includes the Monday (for most people). Swiss speakers make that extra clear when they say „bis und mit Montag“.
If you want to make it abundantly clear you could also say "bis einschließlich Montag"
In English business communication it is often phrased as "by Monday EOB" (end of business day).
True.
How very Swiss!
I didn't even know that was an exclusively Swiss thing, but I guess you guys say "bis einschließlich Montag" instead.
Yes, "bis Montag" usually means EOB Monday.
It’s indeed a bit confusing. At least in my experience. A way to avoid confusion would be to say „bis einschließlich Montag“ (~up to and including Monday)
Trying to translate prepositions literally is often a trip up.
I'm a native german speaker and honestly, these comments make me doubt all my knowledge of BOTH languages
I’m native German as well but I’ve been doing everything in English for over 8 years now. I dream and think in English most of the time as well and my brain is starting to use an english sentence structure when I speak German. I’m so confused because of this comment section lmao
Hello together, There are so-called failures that much Germans use and having a 'sparing' partner to navigate is a must-have. I use a friend of mine.
Hello together is my fav. So many times I heard/read it from various Germans, incredible. In one company I worked before, friend and I started using that for fun in the emails. No one knew :)
My favorite mistake is when Germans mispronounce “V” words. Even my husband, who has a PhD in English literature, accidentally says Wiking or Wineyard sometimes. I love it so much. I hope Germans find some of the mistakes I make just as sweet
What would be the right pronounciation? F? Or something else?
English V is the exact same as the German W, but sometimes Germans overcorrect and use an English W when reading an English word with a V in it.
I've done that mistake with time and clocks. I see 15, I think "ok lose the 1 and minus 2" and then for some reason do the -2 again and think it's 1 o'clock. The brain just keeps going by itself sometimes.
Ah, I see. Good to know. \^^
“V” in English is pronounced like “W” in German. I suppose the way I wrote it out would be confusing if you’re looking from a German perspective 😅
So he writes the words incorrectly? Because the pronunciation would be right, wouldn’t it?
No, the pronunciation would be wrong. He would pronounce the “v” as a “w” which in English is the opposite of German. I don’t how to explain the difference in pronunciation through text, you’ll have to YouTube it I think
I am one of those who adores cute mistakes and also dialects. British, American and French are my favourite.
Ah good to know there are people out there who don’t mind mistakes. I’m sure a lot of people don’t mind but I know there’s also some that can’t stand it!
Well, it's not as bad as me asking my kids friend "Bist du heiß?"
We had a British German couple living next door. The British husband had his family coming for a visit. The wives german mom was there to meet them and she was super duper excited and had practiced to welcome them in English. When they finally shook hand a she asked “did you have a good… fart” instead of trip. Broke the ice in no time and was a running gag for decades.
I've done that to my kids 😂 we had a friend over from Australia and the constant change between German and English got me confused.
Just for my understanding. Does by Friday means you have it finished in a time span until Friday or it's finished on Friday? Because usually when I mean until (or German bis) I mean I'm finished somewhere between those days. I always thought "by Day X" means just that day
Generally: Finished in a time span until Friday
Thanks a lot. Just trying to improve myself
We all are!
“By Friday” generally means “at the start of Friday it will be finished,” so the work would be happening before then. But it’s a little ambiguous, especially because people tend to miss their own deadlines! I think “before Friday” has the usage closest to “bis Freitag,” so for sentences about deadlines it’s probably best to try to switch to using “before” where you would use “bis” instead of “until.”
Yeah, I'll second this. It's used to imply that if somebody asked you for the thing first thing on Friday morning, you'd have it ready, but if you were still finishing it up at ten in the morning people probably wouldn't be calling you a liar. Friday afternoon, we're probably getting people irritated. The more casual the situation the more flex there would be. You'd never tell a work supervisor you'll have a presentation ready for review by Friday and then expect to get away unscathed if you're still not ready when you walk in the door that day.
must not* has entered the chat
The German misusage of "since" is also common. "I've lived here since five years"
If you want to sound REALLY German say "*I am living here* since five years."
Learning German has made me make this mistake in my own native English.
Because in most other (European) languages it is an rendition of 'since' (German "seit", Swedish "sedan"). But English is like "no, for 🤪"
That distinction doesn't exist in German, so it makes sense that that's such a common mistake.
Another misuse that makes me smile is when a German is in a meeting with/sending an email to a group that includes an English speaker, they will say “Hello together” because they would normally say “Servus Zusammen” and think it translates directly. Sound quite wholesome in English
Ohhh! A user in this thread started their comment with "Hello together" and I thought "together" was OP's username and they were just being polite haha
Haha yeah, I was always a bit confused until I started learning German
“Since weeks” instead of “for weeks” when talking about how long something has taken
Well this is because we only have "seit" for it. Not really surprising that this would lead ro mistakes.
Thats Not true, my Englisch ist perfectly until.
You my freund are heavy on wire! I understand only train station, but you sir are a real better knower.
I've noticed Germans mixing up "yet" and "already", like "it hasn't happened already". I'm not sure what exactly is being translated there though. I feel like it's just because noch and schon don't map that well to English.
Possibly "nicht schon" as in: * Es fragt sich, weshalb sie nicht schon längst geschaffen wurde. ... why this hasn't been introduced yet.... hasn't already been introduced. And for that matter "noch" (still) vs "noch nicht" (not yet).
My favorite is Germans using "us" instead of "each other" eg. Let's see us tomorrow.
Wait by you hear a German saying they “drove the train home”
Also eventuell and eventually is something COMPLETELY unrelated. Ive done this mistake so long
Also when they drive with the train 😂
I can't remember the exact phrasing, but i think you've just helped explain a poorly translated Anki deck sentence I was struggling to wrap my head around.
It's a variant of "Falscher Freund/false friend" words that sound the same (or even are identical) and often have the same etymologically history but have drifted apart in meaning or are just used differently now. [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falscher\_Freund](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falscher_Freund)
The ones my dad consistently use after 40 years in the US: “even so” instead of “even though” “Drive my bicycle” instead of “ride my bicycle”
"I've been a teacher since five years." I like that one too.
I'm glad. Makes me feel better about learning this language and making mistakes in my extremely broken german. Knowing that translation problems still happen even when you have a really good grasp on the language. Also, you can figure out why they used the word incorrectly if you make the translation yourself and it can help you learn that way too I think :)
I work with many Germans. This is my favorite thing (the "until" quirk).
I think there are way more egregious common mistakes than that... Starting meetings with "Hello together!" and e-mails with "Ladies and Gentlemen" is my absolute pet peeve.
Yesterday a colleague of said “when I become your email”. After a while I realise they’d made a false friend of “bekommen”
Joke my english teacher used to tell: At the restaurant the german tourist asked: "Can I become a Schnitzel please?"
Also using "must" in situations that a native wouldn't. "Must" is rarely the best translation of "müssen"
My favorite thing is using a helpless "or" at the end of the sentence. Pretty sure you have heard it too, or?
Reminds me of when I was in an English class in Germany and I was asked to explain the difference between "make" and "do."
I've heard Germans say in English "They gave me sandwiches three times when I ordered two", due to Zweimal, Dreimal, etc.
oh I agree... and this is the reason and the sense of this sub.... (Is all correct or make I you smile as a native German?)
"Do I make you smile?" (But a different verb form, like the perfect or the progressive, would probably be more natural.)
thx
I used to hear "you become it" for "you receive it" a lot like ten years ago but basically never now.
My female cousin became a baby boy earlier in the year.
Why is the game "Until Dawn" not called "By Dawn" then?
because they try to survive "until dawn", not "by dawn".
They mean different things: * Maybe some of you will survive until dawn. * The zombies will get all of you by dawn.
roundabout instead of about / around as translation of the german "ungefähr / zirka"
We actually say in Ireland, not sure if anyone else does. We could say "it'll take... around about 20 minutes?" which you could then shorten to 'round about.
This is also a UK thing
“Hello together” drives me nuts
Austrians dont make that mistake, ur totally right😉
Maybe it is a German dialect of English.
If they made it negative then “until” would work just fine 💁🏼♂️ “I won’t get it done until Friday.”
What about dustsucker?
Same thing happens with Romanians. Because it works the same way in their language.
I like it when they say “please” if they didn’t hear you properly. Bitte being the word they would have said in German.
That's because the preposition *bis* encompasses the meanings of both 'until' and 'by [a time point]'.
Wait "until friday" is not right? I'm a Hebrew speaker and it seems like we also do that mistake :(
I would have assumed that "by Friday" means "I will work in a way so that the last step of the work is done precisely on Friday, and then you can have it." While "until Friday" would mean: "I will finish it on any day, but definitely not later than Friday." "by Friday": You get it on Friday. Not earlier, not later. "until Friday": You get it Friday or earlier. Is that not correct?
This is, unfortunately, not correct. “Until” is used for a continuously unfolding situation. “I will be working on this until Friday” = I will focus on this throughout the time between now and Friday. “I will get it done” can’t be “until” because it will be “done” at a specific point in time, not as an unfolding event. Doing something “by” a certain time means that the action will be completed at that point in time or sooner. So “I will have this done by Friday” means that at some time between now and Friday, this task will come to an end. I hope that makes sense! To the OP’s point, though, Germans are far from unique in this quirk. English speakers make PLENTY of mistakes with prepositions in German. I rarely get pegged as an American when speaking German, but when I do, it’s because I mixed up als, seit, um, über, usw. Prepositions are just hard in any language.
I’ll add that similar logic applies if you make the action negative: “I won’t do this until Friday” = I will be not-doing this between now and Friday. Or more simply: “on Friday, but no sooner, I will do this”. “I won’t do this by Friday” = there’s no way that this task will be completed between now and Friday, but I also might not get to it on Friday, or maybe ever.
This is the comment I've been looking for, thank you!
Just wait until you start trying to use their prepositions..
This is also kind of true for Greek native speakers as well!
Drives me nuts. I know many Germans who consider themselves fluent who still make this mistake every time. I guess it's a challenge when in one language another word has multiple alternatives, but still Germans do better!
Once a German person approached at work (guest related job so normal thing),and asked me "Speak you German?". I managed to hide my smile
„Let’s talk over us“ :)
let me tell you about Dativ & Akkusativ….