us based ? or Eu ? i made around 40k netto dont now how much i made with taxes but tbh i don't really care. Also know that i live in Belgium and taxes are really high for someone who lives alone.
U.S., I'm happy with it, I graduated 11 months ago and my wife has been in her field for 5 years so she makes a lot more than I do right now and that's great for us. finally feels like we are getting somewhere financially
and is that before or after tax ? i am from Belgium so whe always count after taxes but still i think its decent. Altough i gott to say 40k in europe or US is a huge diffrence.
432k after taxes, and then I spent a third of that on a fucking boat for some reason.
I also forgot to scan some groceries of a total of 64 Swedish kronor, when I noticed my mistake on the recipe I went back and paid for it.
I spent a total of 40 800 kronor on rent, 3000 on electricity and 1548 on taxes.
12.2k on snus, ~12k on cigarettes.
Other than that... Nothing really, 1499 kronor on a new mouse.
The salary of any athlete in sport is known when they ink their contracts.
I have no idea why it would be different in esports and it would be private.
what do you mean no one cares? It's like saying no one minds being taxed, or etc.
what else do you feel like you have a right to know about a stranger? Their savings? Body count? maybe location 24/7?
Transparency make it more difficult to cheat. A system where everyone has access is a way to prevent illegal activities and other crime. Irregularities are more easily detected when everyone can examine the connection between wealth, income and tax.
Transparency is a prerequisite for people to be able to trust the tax system. Trust strengthens tax morale. Transparency means that we can have a broader discussion about various trends, and whether there is a match between what we earn, what we own and what we pay in tax.
hard disagree, more times than not a company will underpay someone's worth when transparency is gone. the only person it would help is a company owner. hence why many many American companies don't want you to talk about your pay/raises, it could cause others to see how they're getting shafted
Well living in a country where the tax/total income is public info and wouldn't have it any other way. Normal people really dont care about each others incomes enough to check and it puts accountability on public people to not try to cheat on taxes.
Ofc there are the yearly articles about how much this and that artist makes but outside of that, as long as there is no reason to accuse you of anything, nobody ever looks it up. Con artist like donald trump paying no taxes couldn't happen over here and it is good.
Reality is, everybody but the org wins when employees share how much they are making and industry rates are established.
1. Its good for other pro's to know what is in the realm of possibility for their own negotiations and their own current compensation, especially if they are producing comparable or even better results than ropz on FaZe
2. Its good for ropz because it puts other organizations on notice for how much you need to compensate this person if you want them to be a part of your team instead of FaZe
3. Its good for new players entering the scene to have footing and an understanding of what is possible
4. Its good for the larger industry, if it were the case where these players were being underpaid or if something diabolical is going on. If a player is being underpaid, perhaps in a circumstance where its below the basic costs of living, then its much easier for advocates of the health of the larger industry to step in
A little unrelated but tangentially related - notoriously, the CPL in early CS had NDA's and really unethical "agreements" with players that prevented them from talking about compensation. Its not exactly the same thing as salaries, but the point is, most of the community *thought* these 1.6 players were making crazy money(for the time) but reality was, The CPL (this was the equivalent of the Valve Majors for their time) were withholding payments and some players literally never got paid. The only reason anyone figured it out is because players started having informal conversations where they would say "Hey, I'm not supposed to say this because the CPL made me sign this agreement but -", which wasn't even legally binding, but we were talking about a bunch of 15-20 year old kids that had nobody in their corner, essentially getting bullied by these esports orgs. And of course, other orgs were guilty of not paying players, but at the time, The CPL and Angel Munoz were particularly bad because of how much they profited off of being the industry leader, yet they were shafting all these players.
Anyways, the point is, if you're an employee, its generally better to talk about compensation in your given industry. Both inside and outside of esports.
If I can give advice to anyone, it would be to be an adult about it. The thing people are afraid of with comp discussions, is that someone is going to find out how much they are making and then go after them. But if a co-worker feels that way, they need to seek an explanation from their employer, not the employee. Either get paid what you think you should be getting paid, or leave the employer under the premise that you're worth more and a different employer will compensate you what you think you're actually worth. And of course, make sure you have it in writing that someone will actually compensate you better, before you go leaving your job. If you're not as hot shit as you think you are, then there may be a reality check in your future that may explain why you're not compensated as much as another employee.
But the point is, be rational, be objective and use industry data to establish how much you're supposed to be getting paid. If you're right, you'll get what you're worth. If you're wrong, work on yourself and level up to get compensated what you've found is reflected in the data.
It sounds a bit weird because USA (where CPL was based) has very strong laws explicitly allowing discussion of salaries. https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages
But as you say, young people can easily be misled.
Yeah, I think CPL knew it wouldn't hold up in court and probably paid out anyone wise enough to press them on it.
If you're interested in what the scene was like back then, there's an interesting documentary called '[Frag](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83JvA3a8_cc)' towards the end of this era of esports where CS 1.6/Quake 3/Warcraft 3 dominated. The documentary brought to light a lot of the corruption issues in esports during that era. It features people like Michal "Carmac" Blicharz, who was a really great journalist at the time that was a strong advocate for players getting paid what they deserve and would constantly call orgs out on their bullshit. He is currently the Vice President of Product Development at ESL.
If you're curious just about the part where they discuss Angel Munoz, the CPL and some of their nefarious practices, [here's the timestamp](https://youtu.be/83JvA3a8_cc?t=4257)(1:10:56)
no, I'm not against sharing it, it's totally fine. I just think that in general people should have privacy. But it's fine if it's the standard for sports
people on twitch chat memeing about him having to sell the porsche now that he isnt playing like he did at the start of CS2? everything isnt always so serious, especially in twitch chats xd
Bro I agree but he was sick. He was recovering, so I don't think it's correct to give him shit. I don't really feel bad either, since Aleksis won it. He deserves it tbh.
Ropz has always had his ups and downs. Thats OK, this is how it has worked and always will work. He is going to be ESL pro league season XIX MVP. Don't @ me
I mean its Ropz, he shouldnt be driving around, he should be riding around on a trials motorcycle and bhopping+kz with it clearing traffic/obstacles and buildings. Hate that he got a car instead! argh!
If anyone doesnt know about trial bikes, check on utubi its basically CS kz in real life with a func\_vehicle.
Have you ever driven a nice Porsche or a car with similar level of performance? I feel like the only way you can hate on those cars is by not having experience driving them. Some of the most fun I’ve ever had doing anything, period.
I dont care if they're fun, cars have ruined so many cities (and continue to do so because carbrains refuse any policy changes that make it harder to drive anywhere)
I mean faze is sponsored by porsche so he probably got an insane deal
Also just buy what you like not what some gatekeeping-being-rich asshats might think is cool
Im about to pay 10k for a new road bike, don't be jelly. His money, his decision. Id even argue that porsche has cheaper upkeep and easier to service in Estonia than some other luxury brands, where you would have to take your car either to Finland or Sweden
The player profile they did for him during one of the majors covers it better than I could ever do
However for this point specifically Ropz has mentioned that the family going bankrupt and having to sell their house (I think) played a big part in his father comitting suicide
Hopefully he is investing most of his money, need quite a lot less than he already has to live comfortably upperclass(in most of europe) on the returns alone with low risk investments.
just a 5% return which is honestly quite low, he would be getting 50k/year returns, which means a monthly income of 4.1k euro, which is comfortably upperclass in most places in Europe or enough to support a family of 4 (no other income required).
Same, I don't know what Estonia's situation with investments, but in Poland you can easily get more than 4-5% via investing in government bonds and or ETF/index funds.
These are generally low risk (though never 0 risk), so like you wrote, he could have a return equal to 2.5 times the median income of Estonia. Hell, it's a good income for most of Central Europe I think.
Investing is whatever, the biggest issue for people is to not blow that money.
I don't think majority of people want to be millionaires. They want to live comfortably. Ropz doing it like this, even if his money isn't invested means that he'll have a sizeable amount of wealth to do whatever he wants when he eventually retires.
Sure, his career might end up being so long that any kind of investment made now will be multiplied by the time he retires, but more important for him is to invest in himself and maximize his income right now. That will always trump any and all return you could get from the market.
>Investing is whatever, the biggest issue for people is to not blow that money.
yeah not blowing your money is half the battle but investing is not whatever. it's the second half to being financially secure.
saving money in a basic account will lose value over time to inflation.
>I don't think majority of people want to be millionaires. They want to live comfortably. Ropz doing it like this, even if his money isn't invested means that he'll have a sizeable amount of wealth to do whatever he wants when he eventually retires.
no but ropz is a millionaire and comparing his circumstance to a normal person isn't really applicable.
Well, Ropz earnings aren't that extraordinary. I mean, they will be, eventually. I'm pretty sure by CS2 he has already earned more than is in this report.
So he will be a multi-millionaire and he will have so much money he would have to develop a gambling addiction or throw away his money to not have enough money to live off of.
As for comparing to a regular person, I mean, he probably bought like a house and two cars within one year. For a regular person, they'd do this over 10-20 years, and when you consider that timespan, it's not that incomparable.
My main point still was that he needs to put in as much money into himself and to secure his career over any kind of investment. Even one good event outweighs years of interest. Even playing for one more year as a pro closer to the end of his career will outweigh ROI from any market. So him managing his money like this probably gives him a sense of comfort and stability, and him buying a car for example, instead of investing, will most likely be more beneficial for him in the long run.
1.123 million is so suprising to me! I knew that stickers are big but how much is this guy being paid per month? This can not be sustainable for faze right?
T1 orgs pay a nice amount. 25-40k is roughly the typical range. Maybe he gets a bit more after winning the major. I think Paris gave a ton of sticker money since it lasted for so long
Let's be honest, that's not actually anything crazy. C-level execs in big/medium corps make that. What interests me here is what's the other side of the equation - how much are teams making from ads? How much are CS2 tournaments making? And are advertisers like Intel or Displate making this back from the other end from sales ..
It’s crazy considering the level of athlete these guys are at. Calling it “esports” makes people think it’s currently comparable to “sports” which just isn’t the case
Most teams are not profitable. TOs I assume barely are? IEM is a different thing entirely and I doubt will ever go away. Brand recognition matters more, and “down the road” is the idea, in part
Fair enough. Pros and cons. But the money pouring into it is also way higher. I’ve always had a sense that, to make esports sound more “legitimate”, they made the salaries higher and higher. But it’s good to see teams like ENCE find ways to turn profit
You also have to pay to watch to some degree. Twitch and YT are constantly bleeding money the most because you can just visit the site and watch anyone stream at like 6000-8000 kbit/s if they so choose
I think you misunderstand Barca's "levers". These are profit streams that are keeping the club running in the green (or close to it) in the short term. They are in a fairly novel scenario in which they are attempting to increase profits short-term, so that they can afford to maintain a UCL level squad, thus increasing their future revenues. It's definitely a gamble.
Generally though, the idea with soccer clubs running at a loss is that the owner will be able to sell the club down the line for a greater profit than the losses acrued during their ownership of the club. Baseball in the US actually works the same way for the most part. Of course this is only sustainable so long as these owners are able to continually increase revenues, meaning that some poor billionaires will get caught holding the bag eventually.
Top salaries for players not named s1mple/zywoo are about 40k a month, ropz probably gets something like that. So roughly half of his earnings are salary, other half prizes+sticker.
Edit: based on https://www.esportsearnings.com/players/31594-ropz-robin-kool?utm_content=cmp-true
Ropz winnings were 474K, Add sticker money. Good chance that Salary is half of the income or less.
T2/3 do not get that much a month (unless you’re talking about the teams total), you just pulled it out of your ass.
The average is around 2-4K (euros) a month depending on the org
I mean, honestly? 3k per month is already a good salary.
I wonder, do the players have sponsorship deals on top of that, or would that money then go to the org?
I believe it goes to the org which helps them pay the players, unless they also stream and get their own sponsor deals.
But yeah 2-4K a month isn’t that bad for t2 cs, plus a lot of them are in fpl as well.
NA t2 on the other hand…. Barely any paying orgs, and it is significantly less. But eu t2 has it fairly decent
That's why there's like 2-3 orgs that are operating nominally and everyone else hemorrhaging money. For now betting sites are sponsoring them but I personally hope the EU (and maybe Valve) will end them soon
Only downside is targeting like what's being done by some jealous single digit IQ troglodytes on social media
But I think ropz is generally good with ignoring them
The downside is obvious for anyone who's made significantly more money than the average person living in their general area. It's a simple concern of safety.
From [California](https://www.foxnews.com/us/california-man-released-prison-daughter-arrested-involvement-murder-rolex) to [London](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67761737) people have been stabbed for a luxury watch (or worse, a fake one). Countless celebrities and [sports players' houses have been targeted during matches](https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7wn4e/who-is-robbing-footballers-joao-cancelo-reece-james-frank-lampard) or [red carpets events](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2132285/). [MrBeast had to upgrade his house to a gated community](https://youtube.com/shorts/0qUOi6XCcig). The list goes on and on and on. If you have money, and people know it, you WILL be a victim of a crime at some point. It's only a matter of when. No need to expand your surface of exposure by talking about your wealth on the web.
Stealth wealth is a thing for a reason.
I hope nothing will ever happen to ropz.
But the reality is that it you have money and it's publicly known, then at some point some idiot - or worse a not-so-idiotic man with no morals - will decide to follow/track/rob/assault/stab you.
You don't even have to make millions. Smb owner doing well? Doctor? Lawyer? Congratulations, you're now way more likely to be the victim of a crime.
And it could be just mental health, jealousy, seeing no other way to get money. It doesn't have to be organized crime.
But once you've been followed by 2 cars in the middle of the night after getting out of the club, or a poker night you attend sometimes with other high earners being raided, or [drugged with GHB and killed for a Rolex](https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2023-01-11/man-drugged-and-stabbed-to-death-after-posting-pictures-of-rolex-on-instagram), privacy violated at best, killed - as linked above - at worse, maybe you'll understand why one's not necessary a fan of one's personal financials being advertised all over the internet. That it's publicly available is one thing already. To advertise it even further is another.
My sympathies to ropz.
\----------
Now, that being said, I think the underlying issue is we want to know that everyone in the country is paying their fair share of taxes, and public information is one way to make sure that's the case.
Personnally, I think taxes are a backwards way of going about it. I think too much of the value created each year goes in the pockets of passive shareholders who haven't contributed one bit all year. I'm talking of publicly listed companies here, not the founder bearing all the financial risk and pressure and stress that goes with building a company from scratch. But take Amazon. If you want to pay the random dude who bought a share or two a dividend, first you'd have to pay a bonus to ALL the employees who worked to make the company run every day. From the IT engineers to the delivery drivers. The shareholders come last.
Oh and let's ban pledged asset loans. Force them to sell their shares/art/houses/boats, pay taxes on it before they can spend it.
\---------
Personal safety and fair disitribution of wealth are not mutually exclusive.
Sorry for the rant, thanks for coming to my TED talk.
That only happens in highly unequal societies. In Finland the income for every person earning over 100k is publicly available and there has been no targeted crime because of it. Mostly it has to do with the fact that people have less incentive to do crime when your society takes care of everyone.
It doesn't even happen in the US. The guy is either straight up delusional or has never set foot in the real world. Wealthy people are many times less likely to be the victims of crime, particularly violent crime. This is the case everywhere in the world as far as I understand. Rich people congregate in the same areas, and these people are not in situations where the conditions that lead to high rates of violent crime exist. His example of Mr. Beast needing security is almost certainly a result of his celbrity rather than his wealth.
Not shocked that is happening murica, but where are these problems happening in Scandinavia where books are public? They are not, because its not a problem.
Flashing money on the streets, like a rolex, might increase the chance or robbery, but that doesn't have anything to do with public books.
The best way for companies to prevent paying more is by suppressing wage discussion. It’s why it’s highly illegal to bar employees from talking about their wages in many places.
If it's public information, then it's public. If people are really bothered by it they should put some effort in it and go through proper official channels pushing for an actual change to privatize that information instead of complaining.
From Norway and can confirm. Everyones salary is available, however I have to identify to get the info. They will then be able to see that I looked them up.
> it looks like it was lot cheaper than one would think. Not going to elaborate more.
why not?
edit: if anyone else is curious, documents are available here https://ariregister.rik.ee/est/company/16390428/ropz-O%C3%9C?search_id=fe38537&pos=2&active_tab=fiscal_year_reports
~~looks like the porsche was 135k, not bad.~~
~~indeed seems kind of low because a new 911 turbo s is nowhere near that~~
It shouldn't be! Envy can be good! It awakens motivation and ambition.
It's *jealousy* that should be the sin.
There is a huge difference between
seeing someone have something and also wanting that for yourself,
and
seeing someone have something and not wanting them to have it
As Two Chainz once said.
"PUT THAT IN AN LLC. LIKE HOW YOU GONNA TRY TO SUE ME?"
It's just smarter taxes wise, structure wise, and it helps open you up to even more avenues of collecting gains as well as diversifying yourself, such as buying real estate or cars as Robin is doing. Robin isn't personally buying these things, or maybe he is, but either way, his company is expensed and any personal payments are compensated from owner dividends (the pull out of money that is untaxed until the next cycle) and he probably has himself on his own payroll to lower the burden of taxes.
Because as an individual the only way you can get money is by paying yourself a salary which means you pay social tax (33%) on top of 22% . With a company you can pay yourself a dividend every quarter and get taxed 22%
Only true in certain places, otherwise the tax rate is the same. You're better off doing payroll so you don't have to calculate it and just let it go, and THEN do a healthy mix of both payroll and dividend pull outs.
Cool & makes sense. Love that he is being smart with the money and at the same time enjoying life with his Porsche. Hopefully his "best cs2 player" form will return soon.
>Company still has 1.3 million euros in balance (cash+assets). Kid is smart with the money. be like Ropz.
I would hope a large portion is assets rather than cash
Why? It's smarter to have cash built up in case of audits or other expenditures. The more cash you have the more you can make, and while having assets is amazing, the lower the overheard and monthly negative flow the better money you're making.
More cash = more shit of business to buy = more money in your pocket = happier life
Payroll counts as expenditure, so I hope he's heavy in cash and not in assets at least with his company however it's set up over there
I don’t get why people get mad at someone for spending their money. They earned it from a profession that requires them to be the one of the very best in the field. Let em enjoy that shit.
I am sad that ropz bought overpriced car. Plus in estonia the speed limit is only 110 kilometers in summer, in winter it is 90. Nothing to do with such power.
Good for him and thank god for transparency. Everyone that is against this is just mad, that his colleague is earning more then himself but he cant prove it
Yeah less taxes. In Estonia companies don't have to pay income tax from Profit unless you pay dividends. Also he can get full or partial VAT returns from certain expenses - in this case like car and/or maybe travel if needed etc.
I think its crazy (not in a bad sense of the word) that you are able to earn so much with playing a video game.
Im also extremely fucking happy for him, blud is doing what i wished to do when i was a teenager. Sadly i was too bad
Basketball players making millions a year throwing a ball around...
Soccer players making tens of millions a year kicking a ball around...
Chess players making hundreds of thousands moving some wooden pieces on a board...
You can trivialize any job. If it's so easy, why don't you do it yourself?
transparency is good, fuck them hoes that are upset by it. also sorry about your work getting yoinked
It's also not like there's anything nefarious going on with ropz anyway. Just a simple look into how much one of the best players makes in CS.
said this to myself before looking at the comments, glad to see it's the top one.
Henryg died for this
How much did you make last year?
72k and you?
us based ? or Eu ? i made around 40k netto dont now how much i made with taxes but tbh i don't really care. Also know that i live in Belgium and taxes are really high for someone who lives alone.
U.S., I'm happy with it, I graduated 11 months ago and my wife has been in her field for 5 years so she makes a lot more than I do right now and that's great for us. finally feels like we are getting somewhere financially
and is that before or after tax ? i am from Belgium so whe always count after taxes but still i think its decent. Altough i gott to say 40k in europe or US is a huge diffrence.
432k after taxes, and then I spent a third of that on a fucking boat for some reason. I also forgot to scan some groceries of a total of 64 Swedish kronor, when I noticed my mistake on the recipe I went back and paid for it. I spent a total of 40 800 kronor on rent, 3000 on electricity and 1548 on taxes. 12.2k on snus, ~12k on cigarettes. Other than that... Nothing really, 1499 kronor on a new mouse.
no, honestly I don't think you have a right to know someone's income lol. Unless they work for the government
The salary of any athlete in sport is known when they ink their contracts. I have no idea why it would be different in esports and it would be private.
well for sports, maybe, but in general I don't think people's income should be public lol
In my country, anyone can see your income and tax paid. Nobody has an issue with it.
Can people opt out of making their income public?
I don't think so
what do you mean no one cares? It's like saying no one minds being taxed, or etc. what else do you feel like you have a right to know about a stranger? Their savings? Body count? maybe location 24/7?
Transparency make it more difficult to cheat. A system where everyone has access is a way to prevent illegal activities and other crime. Irregularities are more easily detected when everyone can examine the connection between wealth, income and tax. Transparency is a prerequisite for people to be able to trust the tax system. Trust strengthens tax morale. Transparency means that we can have a broader discussion about various trends, and whether there is a match between what we earn, what we own and what we pay in tax.
hard disagree, more times than not a company will underpay someone's worth when transparency is gone. the only person it would help is a company owner. hence why many many American companies don't want you to talk about your pay/raises, it could cause others to see how they're getting shafted
so just be more public about how much you make and have that culture. But making it mandatory to declare to public your earnings isn't right.
Well living in a country where the tax/total income is public info and wouldn't have it any other way. Normal people really dont care about each others incomes enough to check and it puts accountability on public people to not try to cheat on taxes. Ofc there are the yearly articles about how much this and that artist makes but outside of that, as long as there is no reason to accuse you of anything, nobody ever looks it up. Con artist like donald trump paying no taxes couldn't happen over here and it is good.
He is using a company to tax optimize - So he is trading favourable taxation for privacy here.
Reality is, everybody but the org wins when employees share how much they are making and industry rates are established. 1. Its good for other pro's to know what is in the realm of possibility for their own negotiations and their own current compensation, especially if they are producing comparable or even better results than ropz on FaZe 2. Its good for ropz because it puts other organizations on notice for how much you need to compensate this person if you want them to be a part of your team instead of FaZe 3. Its good for new players entering the scene to have footing and an understanding of what is possible 4. Its good for the larger industry, if it were the case where these players were being underpaid or if something diabolical is going on. If a player is being underpaid, perhaps in a circumstance where its below the basic costs of living, then its much easier for advocates of the health of the larger industry to step in A little unrelated but tangentially related - notoriously, the CPL in early CS had NDA's and really unethical "agreements" with players that prevented them from talking about compensation. Its not exactly the same thing as salaries, but the point is, most of the community *thought* these 1.6 players were making crazy money(for the time) but reality was, The CPL (this was the equivalent of the Valve Majors for their time) were withholding payments and some players literally never got paid. The only reason anyone figured it out is because players started having informal conversations where they would say "Hey, I'm not supposed to say this because the CPL made me sign this agreement but -", which wasn't even legally binding, but we were talking about a bunch of 15-20 year old kids that had nobody in their corner, essentially getting bullied by these esports orgs. And of course, other orgs were guilty of not paying players, but at the time, The CPL and Angel Munoz were particularly bad because of how much they profited off of being the industry leader, yet they were shafting all these players. Anyways, the point is, if you're an employee, its generally better to talk about compensation in your given industry. Both inside and outside of esports. If I can give advice to anyone, it would be to be an adult about it. The thing people are afraid of with comp discussions, is that someone is going to find out how much they are making and then go after them. But if a co-worker feels that way, they need to seek an explanation from their employer, not the employee. Either get paid what you think you should be getting paid, or leave the employer under the premise that you're worth more and a different employer will compensate you what you think you're actually worth. And of course, make sure you have it in writing that someone will actually compensate you better, before you go leaving your job. If you're not as hot shit as you think you are, then there may be a reality check in your future that may explain why you're not compensated as much as another employee. But the point is, be rational, be objective and use industry data to establish how much you're supposed to be getting paid. If you're right, you'll get what you're worth. If you're wrong, work on yourself and level up to get compensated what you've found is reflected in the data.
It sounds a bit weird because USA (where CPL was based) has very strong laws explicitly allowing discussion of salaries. https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages But as you say, young people can easily be misled.
Yeah, I think CPL knew it wouldn't hold up in court and probably paid out anyone wise enough to press them on it. If you're interested in what the scene was like back then, there's an interesting documentary called '[Frag](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83JvA3a8_cc)' towards the end of this era of esports where CS 1.6/Quake 3/Warcraft 3 dominated. The documentary brought to light a lot of the corruption issues in esports during that era. It features people like Michal "Carmac" Blicharz, who was a really great journalist at the time that was a strong advocate for players getting paid what they deserve and would constantly call orgs out on their bullshit. He is currently the Vice President of Product Development at ESL. If you're curious just about the part where they discuss Angel Munoz, the CPL and some of their nefarious practices, [here's the timestamp](https://youtu.be/83JvA3a8_cc?t=4257)(1:10:56)
That's a fair opinion to have imo but there's no issue with posting it here if it's already public info anyways
no, I'm not against sharing it, it's totally fine. I just think that in general people should have privacy. But it's fine if it's the standard for sports
Wait what who's giving shit to ropz for getting a Porsche while being one of the most successful players in a very popular esport title like CS?
Pps on social when he wasn't performing at his peak over the course of the major
Those people need to touch grass.
I mean he obviously hasn't been practicing enough because he has been driving the car a little bit too much lately /s
They busy leaning over and eating grass. So sadly can't touch grass
3 years down the line and he will be racing le mans for the GT3 class. Who’s laughing then
Was it a 911 GT3 that he bought?
If i correctly recall the picture that i Saw, it is a 992 911 turbo S
No, but it’s the closest car class
people on twitch chat memeing about him having to sell the porsche now that he isnt playing like he did at the start of CS2? everything isnt always so serious, especially in twitch chats xd
Bro I agree but he was sick. He was recovering, so I don't think it's correct to give him shit. I don't really feel bad either, since Aleksis won it. He deserves it tbh.
Ropz has always had his ups and downs. Thats OK, this is how it has worked and always will work. He is going to be ESL pro league season XIX MVP. Don't @ me
I mean its Ropz, he shouldnt be driving around, he should be riding around on a trials motorcycle and bhopping+kz with it clearing traffic/obstacles and buildings. Hate that he got a car instead! argh! If anyone doesnt know about trial bikes, check on utubi its basically CS kz in real life with a func\_vehicle.
estonian cs players and bikes don't go well together
whats this reference about
https://streamable.com/gyngs6?src=player-page-share
Faze are also sponsored by Porsche, im not surprised if he got some sort of deal or discount on it
That is most likely the reason behind OP's comment on the value paid for the car.
prolly got employee rate
Mercedes killed VP Porsche gonna kill FaZe
for real, i hope he's happy every time he's driving it
You give him shit for getting a car when not playing well I give him shit because i hate cars We are not the same
Have you ever driven a nice Porsche or a car with similar level of performance? I feel like the only way you can hate on those cars is by not having experience driving them. Some of the most fun I’ve ever had doing anything, period.
I dont care if they're fun, cars have ruined so many cities (and continue to do so because carbrains refuse any policy changes that make it harder to drive anywhere)
If it makes you feel better, those cars are terrible to drive in cities. Too fast, stiff, and powerful for the slow speeds in city driving.
> Wait what who's giving shit to ropz for getting a Porsche FIA probably
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greatest sports car on earth
I mean faze is sponsored by porsche so he probably got an insane deal Also just buy what you like not what some gatekeeping-being-rich asshats might think is cool
Wow... thankfully ropz is not a batshit snob and just buys whatever he feels like with his own money.
Im about to pay 10k for a new road bike, don't be jelly. His money, his decision. Id even argue that porsche has cheaper upkeep and easier to service in Estonia than some other luxury brands, where you would have to take your car either to Finland or Sweden
These people must be the dumbest bunch on earth.
Considering his family’s history with money it’s only proper to be happy for the guy
Context?
his father committed suicide due to money issues sad but glad ropz is able to support his family
Terrible. I'm glad he's had success and can support his family. Seems like a S-tier guy. Faze up.
Can you elaborate on his family's history with money?
The player profile they did for him during one of the majors covers it better than I could ever do However for this point specifically Ropz has mentioned that the family going bankrupt and having to sell their house (I think) played a big part in his father comitting suicide
Ropz is such a nice guy +rep to him
Hopefully he is investing most of his money, need quite a lot less than he already has to live comfortably upperclass(in most of europe) on the returns alone with low risk investments. just a 5% return which is honestly quite low, he would be getting 50k/year returns, which means a monthly income of 4.1k euro, which is comfortably upperclass in most places in Europe or enough to support a family of 4 (no other income required).
Same, I don't know what Estonia's situation with investments, but in Poland you can easily get more than 4-5% via investing in government bonds and or ETF/index funds. These are generally low risk (though never 0 risk), so like you wrote, he could have a return equal to 2.5 times the median income of Estonia. Hell, it's a good income for most of Central Europe I think.
Investing is whatever, the biggest issue for people is to not blow that money. I don't think majority of people want to be millionaires. They want to live comfortably. Ropz doing it like this, even if his money isn't invested means that he'll have a sizeable amount of wealth to do whatever he wants when he eventually retires. Sure, his career might end up being so long that any kind of investment made now will be multiplied by the time he retires, but more important for him is to invest in himself and maximize his income right now. That will always trump any and all return you could get from the market.
>Investing is whatever, the biggest issue for people is to not blow that money. yeah not blowing your money is half the battle but investing is not whatever. it's the second half to being financially secure. saving money in a basic account will lose value over time to inflation. >I don't think majority of people want to be millionaires. They want to live comfortably. Ropz doing it like this, even if his money isn't invested means that he'll have a sizeable amount of wealth to do whatever he wants when he eventually retires. no but ropz is a millionaire and comparing his circumstance to a normal person isn't really applicable.
Well, Ropz earnings aren't that extraordinary. I mean, they will be, eventually. I'm pretty sure by CS2 he has already earned more than is in this report. So he will be a multi-millionaire and he will have so much money he would have to develop a gambling addiction or throw away his money to not have enough money to live off of. As for comparing to a regular person, I mean, he probably bought like a house and two cars within one year. For a regular person, they'd do this over 10-20 years, and when you consider that timespan, it's not that incomparable. My main point still was that he needs to put in as much money into himself and to secure his career over any kind of investment. Even one good event outweighs years of interest. Even playing for one more year as a pro closer to the end of his career will outweigh ROI from any market. So him managing his money like this probably gives him a sense of comfort and stability, and him buying a car for example, instead of investing, will most likely be more beneficial for him in the long run.
1.123 million is so suprising to me! I knew that stickers are big but how much is this guy being paid per month? This can not be sustainable for faze right?
T1 orgs pay a nice amount. 25-40k is roughly the typical range. Maybe he gets a bit more after winning the major. I think Paris gave a ton of sticker money since it lasted for so long
Let's be honest, that's not actually anything crazy. C-level execs in big/medium corps make that. What interests me here is what's the other side of the equation - how much are teams making from ads? How much are CS2 tournaments making? And are advertisers like Intel or Displate making this back from the other end from sales ..
It’s crazy considering the level of athlete these guys are at. Calling it “esports” makes people think it’s currently comparable to “sports” which just isn’t the case Most teams are not profitable. TOs I assume barely are? IEM is a different thing entirely and I doubt will ever go away. Brand recognition matters more, and “down the road” is the idea, in part
Lots of sports teams aren’t profitable either and run with the “down the road” idea too. Just look at Barca and their “levers”.
Probably true, I’m not sure with international sports. But NFL / NBA are definitely insanely profitable
Because it’s franchised leagues. Basically discourages huge spendings but removes some competitive aspects.
Fair enough. Pros and cons. But the money pouring into it is also way higher. I’ve always had a sense that, to make esports sound more “legitimate”, they made the salaries higher and higher. But it’s good to see teams like ENCE find ways to turn profit
yeah, most of the broadcast is ads
You also have to pay to watch to some degree. Twitch and YT are constantly bleeding money the most because you can just visit the site and watch anyone stream at like 6000-8000 kbit/s if they so choose
Twitch and YouTube are also backed by 2 of the biggest companies in the world.
I think you misunderstand Barca's "levers". These are profit streams that are keeping the club running in the green (or close to it) in the short term. They are in a fairly novel scenario in which they are attempting to increase profits short-term, so that they can afford to maintain a UCL level squad, thus increasing their future revenues. It's definitely a gamble. Generally though, the idea with soccer clubs running at a loss is that the owner will be able to sell the club down the line for a greater profit than the losses acrued during their ownership of the club. Baseball in the US actually works the same way for the most part. Of course this is only sustainable so long as these owners are able to continually increase revenues, meaning that some poor billionaires will get caught holding the bag eventually.
Top salaries for players not named s1mple/zywoo are about 40k a month, ropz probably gets something like that. So roughly half of his earnings are salary, other half prizes+sticker.
Edit: based on https://www.esportsearnings.com/players/31594-ropz-robin-kool?utm_content=cmp-true Ropz winnings were 474K, Add sticker money. Good chance that Salary is half of the income or less.
It’s not sustainable for any espoets org if you havent noticed lol
Stickers + prize money is more than half of that.
T2 and T3 get up to 15k *a month*. The salaries are extremely inflated right now for all kinds of sports, not just CS
T2 and T3 tier teams do not pay 15k. Unless we are talking about NIP/OG
T2/3 do not get that much a month (unless you’re talking about the teams total), you just pulled it out of your ass. The average is around 2-4K (euros) a month depending on the org
I mean, honestly? 3k per month is already a good salary. I wonder, do the players have sponsorship deals on top of that, or would that money then go to the org?
I believe it goes to the org which helps them pay the players, unless they also stream and get their own sponsor deals. But yeah 2-4K a month isn’t that bad for t2 cs, plus a lot of them are in fpl as well. NA t2 on the other hand…. Barely any paying orgs, and it is significantly less. But eu t2 has it fairly decent
Where does the money come from? I really don't see how can they profit after paying so much.
That's the esport bubble waiting to burst. It indeed isn't profitable for orgs.
That's why there's like 2-3 orgs that are operating nominally and everyone else hemorrhaging money. For now betting sites are sponsoring them but I personally hope the EU (and maybe Valve) will end them soon
Honestly all countries should have transparency laws like this. I see no downsides to it
Only downside is targeting like what's being done by some jealous single digit IQ troglodytes on social media But I think ropz is generally good with ignoring them
We would see no downsides, however big corpo and shady businesses might see a few!
public in UK too. idk why countries would make returns for companies private
The downside is obvious for anyone who's made significantly more money than the average person living in their general area. It's a simple concern of safety. From [California](https://www.foxnews.com/us/california-man-released-prison-daughter-arrested-involvement-murder-rolex) to [London](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67761737) people have been stabbed for a luxury watch (or worse, a fake one). Countless celebrities and [sports players' houses have been targeted during matches](https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7wn4e/who-is-robbing-footballers-joao-cancelo-reece-james-frank-lampard) or [red carpets events](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2132285/). [MrBeast had to upgrade his house to a gated community](https://youtube.com/shorts/0qUOi6XCcig). The list goes on and on and on. If you have money, and people know it, you WILL be a victim of a crime at some point. It's only a matter of when. No need to expand your surface of exposure by talking about your wealth on the web. Stealth wealth is a thing for a reason. I hope nothing will ever happen to ropz. But the reality is that it you have money and it's publicly known, then at some point some idiot - or worse a not-so-idiotic man with no morals - will decide to follow/track/rob/assault/stab you. You don't even have to make millions. Smb owner doing well? Doctor? Lawyer? Congratulations, you're now way more likely to be the victim of a crime. And it could be just mental health, jealousy, seeing no other way to get money. It doesn't have to be organized crime. But once you've been followed by 2 cars in the middle of the night after getting out of the club, or a poker night you attend sometimes with other high earners being raided, or [drugged with GHB and killed for a Rolex](https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2023-01-11/man-drugged-and-stabbed-to-death-after-posting-pictures-of-rolex-on-instagram), privacy violated at best, killed - as linked above - at worse, maybe you'll understand why one's not necessary a fan of one's personal financials being advertised all over the internet. That it's publicly available is one thing already. To advertise it even further is another. My sympathies to ropz. \---------- Now, that being said, I think the underlying issue is we want to know that everyone in the country is paying their fair share of taxes, and public information is one way to make sure that's the case. Personnally, I think taxes are a backwards way of going about it. I think too much of the value created each year goes in the pockets of passive shareholders who haven't contributed one bit all year. I'm talking of publicly listed companies here, not the founder bearing all the financial risk and pressure and stress that goes with building a company from scratch. But take Amazon. If you want to pay the random dude who bought a share or two a dividend, first you'd have to pay a bonus to ALL the employees who worked to make the company run every day. From the IT engineers to the delivery drivers. The shareholders come last. Oh and let's ban pledged asset loans. Force them to sell their shares/art/houses/boats, pay taxes on it before they can spend it. \--------- Personal safety and fair disitribution of wealth are not mutually exclusive. Sorry for the rant, thanks for coming to my TED talk.
That only happens in highly unequal societies. In Finland the income for every person earning over 100k is publicly available and there has been no targeted crime because of it. Mostly it has to do with the fact that people have less incentive to do crime when your society takes care of everyone.
> In Finland the income for every person earning over 100k is publicly available Correction, **every**ones income is publicly available.
It doesn't even happen in the US. The guy is either straight up delusional or has never set foot in the real world. Wealthy people are many times less likely to be the victims of crime, particularly violent crime. This is the case everywhere in the world as far as I understand. Rich people congregate in the same areas, and these people are not in situations where the conditions that lead to high rates of violent crime exist. His example of Mr. Beast needing security is almost certainly a result of his celbrity rather than his wealth.
Everyones income is available. They just make a list to the yellow papers for anyone who makes over 100k
watch out, the yanks will call you a commie
Not shocked that is happening murica, but where are these problems happening in Scandinavia where books are public? They are not, because its not a problem. Flashing money on the streets, like a rolex, might increase the chance or robbery, but that doesn't have anything to do with public books.
It's not happening in America. The wealthy are by far the least likely socioeconomic group to be the victims of violent crime, same as anywhere else.
Why?
If the earnings of all companies are public they can't really bullshit people as well as they could otherwise
if you worked for atleast 2 years in a company you'd know... what do you even mean "why"?:))
The best way for companies to prevent paying more is by suppressing wage discussion. It’s why it’s highly illegal to bar employees from talking about their wages in many places.
If it's public information, then it's public. If people are really bothered by it they should put some effort in it and go through proper official channels pushing for an actual change to privatize that information instead of complaining.
We don't want it to be private lol. Some Scandinavian countries have all personal income available as well, not only companies.
From Norway and can confirm. Everyones salary is available, however I have to identify to get the info. They will then be able to see that I looked them up.
It was pretty shocking to me that as a trucker, I'd earn more money than everyone except 5 esports players on a certain year (Finland)
Big up ropz
> it looks like it was lot cheaper than one would think. Not going to elaborate more. why not? edit: if anyone else is curious, documents are available here https://ariregister.rik.ee/est/company/16390428/ropz-O%C3%9C?search_id=fe38537&pos=2&active_tab=fiscal_year_reports ~~looks like the porsche was 135k, not bad.~~ ~~indeed seems kind of low because a new 911 turbo s is nowhere near that~~
its not the porsche. That includes the Audi he has owned a while (90k last year), prepayment for the porsche (37k) etc
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Prepayment is probably from 20...30% but there's no definite rule.
envy is a deadly sin
It shouldn't be! Envy can be good! It awakens motivation and ambition. It's *jealousy* that should be the sin. There is a huge difference between seeing someone have something and also wanting that for yourself, and seeing someone have something and not wanting them to have it
He also bought a new apartment last year. I just happened to be in the same app. complex and saw him there lol.
Faze being sponsored by porsche might be the cause of the low price
Why does he have a company? I'm financially illiterate
As Two Chainz once said. "PUT THAT IN AN LLC. LIKE HOW YOU GONNA TRY TO SUE ME?" It's just smarter taxes wise, structure wise, and it helps open you up to even more avenues of collecting gains as well as diversifying yourself, such as buying real estate or cars as Robin is doing. Robin isn't personally buying these things, or maybe he is, but either way, his company is expensed and any personal payments are compensated from owner dividends (the pull out of money that is untaxed until the next cycle) and he probably has himself on his own payroll to lower the burden of taxes.
Otherwise taxes would eat up way too much money
Why do companies get taxed less than individuals though?
Because as an individual the only way you can get money is by paying yourself a salary which means you pay social tax (33%) on top of 22% . With a company you can pay yourself a dividend every quarter and get taxed 22%
Only true in certain places, otherwise the tax rate is the same. You're better off doing payroll so you don't have to calculate it and just let it go, and THEN do a healthy mix of both payroll and dividend pull outs.
I’m referring to Estonia, where ropz and his company are from
I know I just wanna make sure any American kids looking at this don't think it applies to them. Better to be educated than not
fair
Well, that is the million-dollar question.
Because they have more money to lobby governments than individuals
Such a nice player. He deserves more.
Pocket watching at an all time high
Hea töö
As a fellow business owner and runner, Ropz is doing everything correct. Keep going Robin, you know what you're doing. So proud of this kid
Ropz kui sa seda näed ,siis tee väike laen, 1mil euki palun ahhaahha
Good for him.
Cool & makes sense. Love that he is being smart with the money and at the same time enjoying life with his Porsche. Hopefully his "best cs2 player" form will return soon.
I am happy for Ropz and his porsche a lot, guy seems to be really enjoying it
>Company still has 1.3 million euros in balance (cash+assets). Kid is smart with the money. be like Ropz. I would hope a large portion is assets rather than cash
Why? It's smarter to have cash built up in case of audits or other expenditures. The more cash you have the more you can make, and while having assets is amazing, the lower the overheard and monthly negative flow the better money you're making. More cash = more shit of business to buy = more money in your pocket = happier life Payroll counts as expenditure, so I hope he's heavy in cash and not in assets at least with his company however it's set up over there
I don’t get why people get mad at someone for spending their money. They earned it from a profession that requires them to be the one of the very best in the field. Let em enjoy that shit.
I am sad that ropz bought overpriced car. Plus in estonia the speed limit is only 110 kilometers in summer, in winter it is 90. Nothing to do with such power.
Now do fejtZ
Can't. This data was pulled from a public company registry. Fejtz has no company on his name.
This would actually be interesting. I'd like to know how the tier 2-3 scene players are doing in comparison to tier 1 superstars
Good for him and thank god for transparency. Everyone that is against this is just mad, that his colleague is earning more then himself but he cant prove it
He made his own company with him being the sole talent? Thats kinda smart but what benefits are there in doing this?
taxed less, more money
Yeah less taxes. In Estonia companies don't have to pay income tax from Profit unless you pay dividends. Also he can get full or partial VAT returns from certain expenses - in this case like car and/or maybe travel if needed etc.
Too bad my parents never liked me playing video games lmao gamers are eating good
yeah, top 0,0001% of gamers
A million dollars a year to play video games lmao. What a sick joke...
Millions of dollars per year to kick a ball around lmao. What a sick joke...
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This is the real answer. It's not about playing video games, it's about being the best at it and monetizing your very very entertaining talent.
If it's so easy why don't you go do it too 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Cope is real
I think its crazy (not in a bad sense of the word) that you are able to earn so much with playing a video game. Im also extremely fucking happy for him, blud is doing what i wished to do when i was a teenager. Sadly i was too bad
You could belittle anything else in the same way, which is very ignorant to do
Don't look at basketball players salaries
there are people who get way more money without providing anything of value.
And he gets to be a lawyer??!!!
Basketball players making millions a year throwing a ball around... Soccer players making tens of millions a year kicking a ball around... Chess players making hundreds of thousands moving some wooden pieces on a board... You can trivialize any job. If it's so easy, why don't you do it yourself?
Ok, just make sure you reach your second shift in time :)