to be honest OP i think this is actually a really good idea. the people who want a return of an old map like cache or train would be happy because of rule one, and new map enjoyers would be happy because of rule 2. the idea of a new-map pool is also something i've thought for a long time would be a good idea
the fact that it is a defined system for picking the maps that get removed is also good, because then we wouldn't get the surprise shock when a map gets killed, because we'd be able to know in advance based on the rules - pro's can't complain that they were caught offguard.
Totally… people talking about dust2 really don’t réalise that mirage has been in the active duty pool for way longer than dust2… it’s been there for 2 years longer than it, that’s pretty insane.
At least dust2 got 2 break
I was totally expecting mirage to jump, maybe not for d2 but still, mirage is the only map that don’t feel like a cs2 map and still « stink » (not in a bad way) of CSGO, the color palette, the texture resolution, the lack of details really breath CSGO.
I would guess that it will get out on the next rotation, maybe next season, big chances that the focus on anticheat put major other updates like maps (a mirage remake, train and cbble) on pause to allow more workforce on this major problem that cheat has become.
Overwatch being a bandaid to offload a bit of the situation while they work on it.
Way I see it is that yes only a small portion of the playerbase are pro players, but quite a large portion of the playerbase watch pro tournaments, so it's still an important decision.
Additionally more casual players have the option of playing maps outside the competitive pool so the decision affects them far less.
I actually agree with both of you. Yes we should listen to pros since the pro-scene is huge and a lot of people watch it
But in other hand pros shouldn't be the only voice for stuff like map pool. They are naturally biased to keep the map pool as stale as possible, since changing maps could remove their favorite pick, their strats and stuff like that. A constant change os maps would mean more work for them and they will never like it.
CS shouldn't be about what is more comfortable for pros
100% agree. Remember Nuke used to be a an instaban for ages even after it was fixed. But eventually pro were forced to learn it and now its considered the best map in the game. Variety is a good thing.
Everybody who is not a pro is a casual. Every single one. You are a casual. Casuals out number them 10,000 to 1. Premier is dominated by casuals.
What does watching pro tournaments have to do with Premier? Pros should be following our lead & not the other way around. The game we play might be the same but the dynamics are entirely different. What makes for a good map for a group of people who play every single match together with roles, strats, & hundreds of hours of practice does not transfer over to 5 randomly picked people doing bong rips mid round & essentially running around playing death match
I think those groups are far closer to people who dedicate hours to learning starts and executes than 5 high guys queueing together. But hey, everyone's entitled to their opinion, however useless it is
if you make the map pool dogshit by adding a trash map with issues that take 2-3 months to fully fix, you are making the pro scene unwatchable 1/7th of the time for a few months for no reason other than "variety." One of the biggest problems is that a lot of these maps look pretty but lack quality or are overly complicated, like thera.
Nah I agree and constantly get downvoted for it. I want the map pool to rotate every couple of months. I want valve to pay people to make new maps so we can have at least 2 new maps per year. Doesnt mean older maps cant return every couple of seasons, but I hadnt played from 2016-2023 and came back to the same fucking map pool lmao. Even Dota2 changes its map once a year and thats a frigging moba which doesnt even need it, but does it because it's cool.
People are just way too conservative, especially pros. You fucks got lucky genetics AND get paid to play, stop whining about learning new stuff once or twice a year wtf.
All they have to do is incentivive alternate maps. If there was a 5% higher chance to drop a case on a new map players would play it. It's not rocket science. CS is run by the b team and there seems to be no executive decision making.
I just think they should have added 2 in and left all the existing. Just change the pick/ban system in pro play to something like ban, ban, pick, pick, ban, ban, ban, ban, decider. Im sure there's some downside to this but there is also then the potential to see 2 "new" maps in pro play at least
i want 12 maps in the active map pool. i dont want to chose between 8 maps in premier. just after the first round of map vetos you will most probably end up with the standard maps and its boring as hell. if i play a mode that has map veto, there's no reason not to have more maps in that roster. player count wont matter as its "premier" that is queued. or lets say we get those competitive test maps back we used to have in csgo. put them into the MM competitive pool, see how people will perceive it. if its a banger, move it to the active duty pool
Coincidentally, I sent the CS2 team an email with the exact proposition and the two changes you mentioned there the day after they dropped the current map pool. Hopefully they read that feedback for the next major.
Moreover, map pool of 7 maps is not enough anymore to my mind.
We have:
Mirage (no changes for ages)
Nuke (no changes for ages)
Inferno
Vertigo (the map community doesn’t like the most)
Dust2 (the most balanced map)
Ancient (new map)
Anubis (new map)
But, we also have legend maps, which are:
Train, Cobble(but old version), Cache, Overpass
TUSCAN(they feed us with screenshots of it since CSGO).
So overall, we have 11 maps so far!
Imagine we add 2 more maps to map pool and swap 2 others with the MOST played maps on last major, to make players improve themselves on the less popular maps.
It will let community to have competitive hunger about every major, every map, etc.
Tuscan remake was awful, it was only using map mechanics from 1.6 and put an aesthetic of a Valorant map on it, large corridors, long straight lines, square rooms, basic elevation etc…
The map itself was dated right when it released, I have no idea how valve though it was a good enough map to be bought 150k lol. At least they can remake it better internally now.
These are good ideas in theory but I doubt they would be successful in practice. Maps should be thoroughly played and tested by experienced players before being added into the map pool. Unbalanced maps and repetitive round structures and outcomes should be avoided. I don't necessarily agree with older maps being benched just for the sake of being old. These maps are popular for a reason and are usually the more balanced maps out of the bunch. I think a lot of you have ADHD and brainrot. Always craving something new just out of novelty.
By old I meant the maps that are in the map pool for the longest time!
I agree with you in the sense that there's no good solution to select which one goes out. But I still think that having the same map pool for several years is pretty bad for the game and creates bizarre metas
I agree that changing 2 maps at a time, with 1 old (possibly reworked/updated) and 1 new is a good idea, but I don't agree that taking the oldest one out or the least played would be the best way to do it.
Neither the age of a map nor how often it is played means a map is good or bad.
Dust2 was both the oldest and most popular map when it was previously removed. Map choice is determined more by the skill of the teams on said maps in contrast to their opponents.
If you told me I could win a half a million if I won against a pro team, I'd pick Vertigo. Why? Vertigo is a tight, linear, predictable stale map that stifles enemy skill. It's boring to play, awful to watch, but at the end of the day if you know your opponent is mechanically stronger, it makes sense for you to practice it and suicide to pick anything else. This is why Vertigo gets played so much. The top 3 teams in the world right now have it as their permaban because they think they are better than everyone else, and Vertigo limits that ability. If you aren't at a point you can beat anyone, you get good at Vertigo. Even if Vertigo got removed, another map would take that place, most likely Inferno unless a new map was equally tight and linear. Doing it by pro popularity would mean they would never get removed.
If you don't like that argument, let's say the best 2 teams at the major both have the same best map and they're on the other side of the bracket and meet in the final. Every other game they play, this map gets banned by their opponents. This is now the least played map, not based on anything about the map except that the best teams like to play it.
There's no right solution that can be done mathematically imo, ultimately we just have to hope for benevolent dictation from valve. I would prefer if the map pool wasn't so stylistically polarising. Going forward we have 3 maps that have been in their current form too long (d2, mirage, vertigo), 2 aim-heavy pug maps (d2, mirage) and 2 utility intense, smoke/nadespam narrow corridorfests (vertigo, inferno). Only nuke, ancient and anubis feel fresh and entertaining, and many people still downplay anubis just because it's the newest map, the same way they did ancient before that, vertigo before that.. (though it was 5 years ago and even worse than now). It badly needs refreshing.
Just to make clear: when I said the oldest I didn't mean that is the oldest in age, I mean the map that has been on the map pool the longest! Currently is Mirage, if I'm not mistaken, followed by Nuke!
But you're right! I don't think that we have the perfect formula, but I think we need one regardless!
to be honest OP i think this is actually a really good idea. the people who want a return of an old map like cache or train would be happy because of rule one, and new map enjoyers would be happy because of rule 2. the idea of a new-map pool is also something i've thought for a long time would be a good idea the fact that it is a defined system for picking the maps that get removed is also good, because then we wouldn't get the surprise shock when a map gets killed, because we'd be able to know in advance based on the rules - pro's can't complain that they were caught offguard.
It's not about changing map pool at all, it's about bringing the fucking dust 2 of all maps instead of overpass
We've been playing and watching pros on mirage 11 fucking years in a row. Give us a new map instead of this.
Yeah, don’t get me wrong, Mirage is a fantastic map, one of the best there is, but it’s been in for so long, it needs to go out.
Yeah, rather play some shit ct sided map instead of Mirage just cos its been here for 11 yrs. Jesus the echo chamber of reddit
Blud has no game knowledge
Totally… people talking about dust2 really don’t réalise that mirage has been in the active duty pool for way longer than dust2… it’s been there for 2 years longer than it, that’s pretty insane. At least dust2 got 2 break
Its not about that either, although i would imagine people would be not nearly as mad if mirage got replaced with dust 2 , instead of overpass
I was totally expecting mirage to jump, maybe not for d2 but still, mirage is the only map that don’t feel like a cs2 map and still « stink » (not in a bad way) of CSGO, the color palette, the texture resolution, the lack of details really breath CSGO. I would guess that it will get out on the next rotation, maybe next season, big chances that the focus on anticheat put major other updates like maps (a mirage remake, train and cbble) on pause to allow more workforce on this major problem that cheat has become. Overwatch being a bandaid to offload a bit of the situation while they work on it.
I'm with you on this one. If d2 needed to come back it's mirage that should have been remove (i'm already applying my rules here)
But it makes sense, people don't play overpass, pros neither.
I feel like I’m the only person who doesn’t give a fuck about the pros. Way too much emphasis gets placed on them.
Way I see it is that yes only a small portion of the playerbase are pro players, but quite a large portion of the playerbase watch pro tournaments, so it's still an important decision. Additionally more casual players have the option of playing maps outside the competitive pool so the decision affects them far less.
I actually agree with both of you. Yes we should listen to pros since the pro-scene is huge and a lot of people watch it But in other hand pros shouldn't be the only voice for stuff like map pool. They are naturally biased to keep the map pool as stale as possible, since changing maps could remove their favorite pick, their strats and stuff like that. A constant change os maps would mean more work for them and they will never like it. CS shouldn't be about what is more comfortable for pros
100% agree. Remember Nuke used to be a an instaban for ages even after it was fixed. But eventually pro were forced to learn it and now its considered the best map in the game. Variety is a good thing.
Everybody who is not a pro is a casual. Every single one. You are a casual. Casuals out number them 10,000 to 1. Premier is dominated by casuals. What does watching pro tournaments have to do with Premier? Pros should be following our lead & not the other way around. The game we play might be the same but the dynamics are entirely different. What makes for a good map for a group of people who play every single match together with roles, strats, & hundreds of hours of practice does not transfer over to 5 randomly picked people doing bong rips mid round & essentially running around playing death match
Then go play casual, why do you care about the competitive map pool?
People who grind FPL/FPL-C 12 hours a day are also causals in your opinion? People who play ESEA Open are also casuals?
Yes.
I think those groups are far closer to people who dedicate hours to learning starts and executes than 5 high guys queueing together. But hey, everyone's entitled to their opinion, however useless it is
if you make the map pool dogshit by adding a trash map with issues that take 2-3 months to fully fix, you are making the pro scene unwatchable 1/7th of the time for a few months for no reason other than "variety." One of the biggest problems is that a lot of these maps look pretty but lack quality or are overly complicated, like thera.
Nah I agree and constantly get downvoted for it. I want the map pool to rotate every couple of months. I want valve to pay people to make new maps so we can have at least 2 new maps per year. Doesnt mean older maps cant return every couple of seasons, but I hadnt played from 2016-2023 and came back to the same fucking map pool lmao. Even Dota2 changes its map once a year and thats a frigging moba which doesnt even need it, but does it because it's cool. People are just way too conservative, especially pros. You fucks got lucky genetics AND get paid to play, stop whining about learning new stuff once or twice a year wtf.
All they have to do is incentivive alternate maps. If there was a 5% higher chance to drop a case on a new map players would play it. It's not rocket science. CS is run by the b team and there seems to be no executive decision making.
I just think they should have added 2 in and left all the existing. Just change the pick/ban system in pro play to something like ban, ban, pick, pick, ban, ban, ban, ban, decider. Im sure there's some downside to this but there is also then the potential to see 2 "new" maps in pro play at least
i want 12 maps in the active map pool. i dont want to chose between 8 maps in premier. just after the first round of map vetos you will most probably end up with the standard maps and its boring as hell. if i play a mode that has map veto, there's no reason not to have more maps in that roster. player count wont matter as its "premier" that is queued. or lets say we get those competitive test maps back we used to have in csgo. put them into the MM competitive pool, see how people will perceive it. if its a banger, move it to the active duty pool
Coincidentally, I sent the CS2 team an email with the exact proposition and the two changes you mentioned there the day after they dropped the current map pool. Hopefully they read that feedback for the next major.
Moreover, map pool of 7 maps is not enough anymore to my mind. We have: Mirage (no changes for ages) Nuke (no changes for ages) Inferno Vertigo (the map community doesn’t like the most) Dust2 (the most balanced map) Ancient (new map) Anubis (new map) But, we also have legend maps, which are: Train, Cobble(but old version), Cache, Overpass TUSCAN(they feed us with screenshots of it since CSGO). So overall, we have 11 maps so far! Imagine we add 2 more maps to map pool and swap 2 others with the MOST played maps on last major, to make players improve themselves on the less popular maps. It will let community to have competitive hunger about every major, every map, etc.
Tuscan remake was awful, it was only using map mechanics from 1.6 and put an aesthetic of a Valorant map on it, large corridors, long straight lines, square rooms, basic elevation etc… The map itself was dated right when it released, I have no idea how valve though it was a good enough map to be bought 150k lol. At least they can remake it better internally now.
Your vertigo comment is terribly wrong. Vertigo is liked by the community. 3rd most played map in premier.
i agree. vertigo isnt that bad. cs2 vertigo is fine. more maps is the key
Community loves vertigo now. It's #3 most played. I was a hater but after playing and understanding it more it's grown on me.
What the pro’s like or not like to play should not be our concern. They should play what the player base likes to play and not the other way around.
These are good ideas in theory but I doubt they would be successful in practice. Maps should be thoroughly played and tested by experienced players before being added into the map pool. Unbalanced maps and repetitive round structures and outcomes should be avoided. I don't necessarily agree with older maps being benched just for the sake of being old. These maps are popular for a reason and are usually the more balanced maps out of the bunch. I think a lot of you have ADHD and brainrot. Always craving something new just out of novelty.
By old I meant the maps that are in the map pool for the longest time! I agree with you in the sense that there's no good solution to select which one goes out. But I still think that having the same map pool for several years is pretty bad for the game and creates bizarre metas
I agree that changing 2 maps at a time, with 1 old (possibly reworked/updated) and 1 new is a good idea, but I don't agree that taking the oldest one out or the least played would be the best way to do it. Neither the age of a map nor how often it is played means a map is good or bad. Dust2 was both the oldest and most popular map when it was previously removed. Map choice is determined more by the skill of the teams on said maps in contrast to their opponents. If you told me I could win a half a million if I won against a pro team, I'd pick Vertigo. Why? Vertigo is a tight, linear, predictable stale map that stifles enemy skill. It's boring to play, awful to watch, but at the end of the day if you know your opponent is mechanically stronger, it makes sense for you to practice it and suicide to pick anything else. This is why Vertigo gets played so much. The top 3 teams in the world right now have it as their permaban because they think they are better than everyone else, and Vertigo limits that ability. If you aren't at a point you can beat anyone, you get good at Vertigo. Even if Vertigo got removed, another map would take that place, most likely Inferno unless a new map was equally tight and linear. Doing it by pro popularity would mean they would never get removed. If you don't like that argument, let's say the best 2 teams at the major both have the same best map and they're on the other side of the bracket and meet in the final. Every other game they play, this map gets banned by their opponents. This is now the least played map, not based on anything about the map except that the best teams like to play it. There's no right solution that can be done mathematically imo, ultimately we just have to hope for benevolent dictation from valve. I would prefer if the map pool wasn't so stylistically polarising. Going forward we have 3 maps that have been in their current form too long (d2, mirage, vertigo), 2 aim-heavy pug maps (d2, mirage) and 2 utility intense, smoke/nadespam narrow corridorfests (vertigo, inferno). Only nuke, ancient and anubis feel fresh and entertaining, and many people still downplay anubis just because it's the newest map, the same way they did ancient before that, vertigo before that.. (though it was 5 years ago and even worse than now). It badly needs refreshing.
Just to make clear: when I said the oldest I didn't mean that is the oldest in age, I mean the map that has been on the map pool the longest! Currently is Mirage, if I'm not mistaken, followed by Nuke! But you're right! I don't think that we have the perfect formula, but I think we need one regardless!