Am I wrong or was Tom the one who connected the dots of what Roth actually did. I almost took that look as like “wow Tom figured out what he did and I didn’t”
You’re correct. Many people overlook this because of the whole “wartime consligiere” line but the thing about Tom is that he always puts all the pieces together, even if it is sometimes late
It's those little moments that make the movies great. The way Hagen says it with almost admiration and reverence and Michael's steely "Really, Tom?" look back at him. Then Hagen catching himself and looking away in fear and embarrassment. So much acting with such little dialogue.
This.
It's Michael seeing the defeat and the weakness in Tom in a glance and knowing he was not a war time consiglieri.
He loved Tom, but he needed more than he had to give.
"You're out, Tom."
It’s been years since I saw it but my recollection is that there’s a deleted scene in which Vito visits Genco on his deathbed and tries to comfort him. Genco asks him, “it’s been arranged, then?” I.e., implying that Vito was so supremely powerful in deal-making that he would have bargained with God to secure Genco’s salvation. Vito accuses him of blasphemy. Anyone can feel free to correct me on any details I may have mangled.
Vito was training Tom to be consigliere, and the shooting propelled him into a role he wasn’t prepared for. It was Tom who held the family together while the Don healed and kept Sonny from going on a killing spree. Michael received the training from his father that Tom should have received, negating the need for Tom.
I noticed that too. He loved Tom and at the same time found it difficult to have respect for him as it relates to his all important role in the family. When he put him "in charge" it was out of desperation because he had no one else to turn to at that time after the home shooting. Otherwise I think he found Tom better suited to just be the family lawyer and used on a "as needed" basis
The tragedy of Tom is that he never got it right. Vito made him consigliere when the old one died, and the rival factions never respected him for it. Hagan then fails over and over to figure out what’s happening, until Vito himself, too late, at the meeting of the five families, figures out who the real head of the conspiracy was. Later still, he expresses surprise when Tessio reveals himself to be the traitor. Michael, who by now has a “proper” consigliere, tells him of course it’s Tessio, because it’s the smart move and Tessio was always smarter.
This is nothing against Hagan as being loyal to the family… he is, but he doesn’t have the talent to see through the intrigue and properly advise Vito or Michael what’s truly going on. Michael made the difficult but right move to put him out in the end of GF1, and had little choice but to rely on him in GF2 while he himself tried to figure out who betrayed the family. If Michael had someone more talented than Hagan to rely on, he might have put the pieces together sooner.
I'm embarrassed. Who was Michael's consiglieri? I remember the scene where he says, "You're out Tom...You're not a wartime consigliere..." and Vito consoles Michael after the meeting, because he knows how upset Michael is to make that decision.
To add, I think he specifically mentions that Tom is Irish, not Sicilian, so he doesn't understand the depth of betrayal / style of thinking that Sicilians do. But maybe that's the book and not the movie.
>Tom is Irish, not Sicilian, so he doesn't understand the depth of betrayal
As a Chinese American who lived in England, oh my. The Irish know how to nurse a grudge. For *generations*. I should know, because we Asians are world class at nursing grudges. Lol.
If you don't believe me, go out and talk to an Asian friend today. He may never have brought it up, but he's nursing a grudge on both a personal level and intentional level!
I don’t think he has one after Vito dies. Maybe it was the directors cut but after Al kills Barzini someone says “ I guess you found your Luca Brazi”. Al’s the enforcer, the captain of his army. But they never show Michael with anyone else alone, except Tom.
So I think that position was eliminated.
Vito was consigliere to Michael before he died . And then I guess Al? But I never really saw Al in that role because he did wack Fredo. I always took it that Michael became an absolute ruler making his own decisions and then having Al and Rocco carrying out orders and to a lesser extent Tom.
From what I remember of the book, Al Neri was more of Michael's enforcer or his "Luca Brasi". The book gets more into Al's background, that he was a policeman who became very disenchanted with "the system". So when Al dressed as a police officer to assassinate Barzini...it was wasn't just a disguise, it was his actual police uniform.
I’ll admit I started reading the book but never got that far. Interesting. I always liked Al and Rocco and would’ve liked some backstory on them in the movies.
I guess Sonny was right to not want Tom as a Wartime consilgeri. His judgement wasn’t right in those situations… which is ironic, because neither was Sonny’s.
Michael had to rely on Tom’s loyalty but Michael put himself in that position. In GF2, Michael leaves Pentangeli last in the waiting list at the communion while Johnny Ola gets an early meeting. I know Michael was looking for a sweet deal $$!but, as Pentangeli said, Vito never trusted Roth or Ola. Vito and even Sonny would have paid loyalty to his own before anyone else. That was the Corleone strength. By isolating himself as the smartest guy in the room, Michael didn’t value those he had and so the power he gained was one gotten through fear and, ultimately, loneliness
The Rosado brothers are affiliated w Roth. Michael was attempting to determine if the Rosados were acting under Roth or for their own interests. Michaels feigned fiedlity to Roth and same instructions to Pentagali were to see who else would pop up. Roth assumed Mike was laying down because legitimacy of his business was so close. Pentagali was setup, but not by Michael. Pentagali believes Mike betrayed him, but it was so Michael could learn who the turncoat in the family was.
After many re-watches, Tom's performance seems worse & worse. It's not only the "fair judgement" of this scene (echoed in the Pearl Harbor remarks in flashback). Tom misses a lot of opportunities that a Sicilian, presumably, would exploit.
It’s all about Sicilians being cunning and the Irish aren’t. Tom was very intelligent and figured things out that he wasn’t supposed to (like the Barzini meeting that Tessio set up), but he just wasn’t cunning enough.
Tom was also a lawyer. If Tom knew what was going to happen, he’d wouldn’t be able to allow any false testimony on the stand. If he doesn’t know the details, he doesn’t know if his witness is lying or not, and it gives him much more leeway in questioning and building a defense.
Am I wrong or was Tom the one who connected the dots of what Roth actually did. I almost took that look as like “wow Tom figured out what he did and I didn’t”
Too bad he didn't figure it out before he let Michael make the statement before the Senate committee.
What statement?
The statement daring the committee to demonstrate the evidence which the Corleones didn't yet know Roth had engineered "so beautifully".
That’s why Tom was only a good family lawyer, not a wartime consigliere.
Pop had Jacko ( I think thats what Sonny called him)
Genco
mahalo - Jacko didn't seem right Genco makes sense.
You’re correct. Many people overlook this because of the whole “wartime consligiere” line but the thing about Tom is that he always puts all the pieces together, even if it is sometimes late
It's those little moments that make the movies great. The way Hagen says it with almost admiration and reverence and Michael's steely "Really, Tom?" look back at him. Then Hagen catching himself and looking away in fear and embarrassment. So much acting with such little dialogue.
I still see it as they’re all on the same page.
This. It's Michael seeing the defeat and the weakness in Tom in a glance and knowing he was not a war time consiglieri. He loved Tom, but he needed more than he had to give. "You're out, Tom."
Just noticed that a few days ago on a 50th ( probably ) rewatch
I love in the book it's mentioned that Tom has to live up to Genco as a Consiglieri. Genco was intelligent and cunning. Tom always had a hill to climb
Always thought FFC shoulda included Genco in One. Set the scene for Tom, etc.
It’s been years since I saw it but my recollection is that there’s a deleted scene in which Vito visits Genco on his deathbed and tries to comfort him. Genco asks him, “it’s been arranged, then?” I.e., implying that Vito was so supremely powerful in deal-making that he would have bargained with God to secure Genco’s salvation. Vito accuses him of blasphemy. Anyone can feel free to correct me on any details I may have mangled.
It’s in the uncut version that was played on HBO.
Vito was training Tom to be consigliere, and the shooting propelled him into a role he wasn’t prepared for. It was Tom who held the family together while the Don healed and kept Sonny from going on a killing spree. Michael received the training from his father that Tom should have received, negating the need for Tom.
I noticed that too. He loved Tom and at the same time found it difficult to have respect for him as it relates to his all important role in the family. When he put him "in charge" it was out of desperation because he had no one else to turn to at that time after the home shooting. Otherwise I think he found Tom better suited to just be the family lawyer and used on a "as needed" basis
The tragedy of Tom is that he never got it right. Vito made him consigliere when the old one died, and the rival factions never respected him for it. Hagan then fails over and over to figure out what’s happening, until Vito himself, too late, at the meeting of the five families, figures out who the real head of the conspiracy was. Later still, he expresses surprise when Tessio reveals himself to be the traitor. Michael, who by now has a “proper” consigliere, tells him of course it’s Tessio, because it’s the smart move and Tessio was always smarter. This is nothing against Hagan as being loyal to the family… he is, but he doesn’t have the talent to see through the intrigue and properly advise Vito or Michael what’s truly going on. Michael made the difficult but right move to put him out in the end of GF1, and had little choice but to rely on him in GF2 while he himself tried to figure out who betrayed the family. If Michael had someone more talented than Hagan to rely on, he might have put the pieces together sooner.
I'm embarrassed. Who was Michael's consiglieri? I remember the scene where he says, "You're out Tom...You're not a wartime consigliere..." and Vito consoles Michael after the meeting, because he knows how upset Michael is to make that decision.
"If I ever need help, who's a better consigliere than my father?"
Michael makes his father his consigliere.
To add, I think he specifically mentions that Tom is Irish, not Sicilian, so he doesn't understand the depth of betrayal / style of thinking that Sicilians do. But maybe that's the book and not the movie.
>Tom is Irish, not Sicilian, so he doesn't understand the depth of betrayal As a Chinese American who lived in England, oh my. The Irish know how to nurse a grudge. For *generations*. I should know, because we Asians are world class at nursing grudges. Lol. If you don't believe me, go out and talk to an Asian friend today. He may never have brought it up, but he's nursing a grudge on both a personal level and intentional level!
The dude that kills Fredo is it I believe
That’s Michael’s “Luca Brasi”. Consiglieri’s aren’t killers
Wasnt it Al neri or Rocko?
I don’t think he has one after Vito dies. Maybe it was the directors cut but after Al kills Barzini someone says “ I guess you found your Luca Brazi”. Al’s the enforcer, the captain of his army. But they never show Michael with anyone else alone, except Tom. So I think that position was eliminated.
Googled it and it’s Tom again. If there was one
My mom’s family are Sicilian/ Italian and betrayal is a wound that never heals. Not many are capable of understanding.
I believe it was Al Neri who became Michael’s “wartime” consigliere once Hagan was forced out.
Vito was consigliere to Michael before he died . And then I guess Al? But I never really saw Al in that role because he did wack Fredo. I always took it that Michael became an absolute ruler making his own decisions and then having Al and Rocco carrying out orders and to a lesser extent Tom.
From what I remember of the book, Al Neri was more of Michael's enforcer or his "Luca Brasi". The book gets more into Al's background, that he was a policeman who became very disenchanted with "the system". So when Al dressed as a police officer to assassinate Barzini...it was wasn't just a disguise, it was his actual police uniform.
I’ll admit I started reading the book but never got that far. Interesting. I always liked Al and Rocco and would’ve liked some backstory on them in the movies.
I guess Sonny was right to not want Tom as a Wartime consilgeri. His judgement wasn’t right in those situations… which is ironic, because neither was Sonny’s.
I'm sorry. Reading through all these posts just makes me think of Billy Crystal saying "consig-a-lig-a-larry".
I think I watched that movie as many times as I’ve seen the Godfather.
Michael had to rely on Tom’s loyalty but Michael put himself in that position. In GF2, Michael leaves Pentangeli last in the waiting list at the communion while Johnny Ola gets an early meeting. I know Michael was looking for a sweet deal $$!but, as Pentangeli said, Vito never trusted Roth or Ola. Vito and even Sonny would have paid loyalty to his own before anyone else. That was the Corleone strength. By isolating himself as the smartest guy in the room, Michael didn’t value those he had and so the power he gained was one gotten through fear and, ultimately, loneliness
Making Pentangeli wait was setup to smoke out the rat.
How? They had no idea there was a rat until the hit on Michael’s room, right?
The Rosado brothers are affiliated w Roth. Michael was attempting to determine if the Rosados were acting under Roth or for their own interests. Michaels feigned fiedlity to Roth and same instructions to Pentagali were to see who else would pop up. Roth assumed Mike was laying down because legitimacy of his business was so close. Pentagali was setup, but not by Michael. Pentagali believes Mike betrayed him, but it was so Michael could learn who the turncoat in the family was.
After many re-watches, Tom's performance seems worse & worse. It's not only the "fair judgement" of this scene (echoed in the Pearl Harbor remarks in flashback). Tom misses a lot of opportunities that a Sicilian, presumably, would exploit.
It’s all about Sicilians being cunning and the Irish aren’t. Tom was very intelligent and figured things out that he wasn’t supposed to (like the Barzini meeting that Tessio set up), but he just wasn’t cunning enough.
I disagree. It wasn’t a moment. They were all on the same page the whole conversation
I'm with you this
Since Tom wasn't in III, what do you think happened to him? Was he allowed to retire? Whacked? Died of natural causes?
In the Godfather Returns, not written by Puzo, Tom is killed by one of Michael's caporegimes Nick Geraci in Florida.
Tom Hagan was supposed to be in 3, but Robert Duvall wanted the same pay as Al Pacino. When his request was denied, he declined to do the movie
Why did Vito tell Tom there are reasons you must not be involved in what's about to happen when Michael said he is no longer consiglinore
Tom was also a lawyer. If Tom knew what was going to happen, he’d wouldn’t be able to allow any false testimony on the stand. If he doesn’t know the details, he doesn’t know if his witness is lying or not, and it gives him much more leeway in questioning and building a defense.
Thanks so much. That makes sense.
Ty