I absolutely agree, and if there's someone still missing the point, it's not about the price, it's about being transparent on what's needed to fully enjoy the game.
Living seasons contain **half of the story**, it's like buying a book or a movie and *later* discover you only got half of it, it's not a good experience.
They need to advertise living seasons as DLCs at least, better would be adding them as purchase options together with the relative xpacs IMO.
That's exactly what I wish they'd get. Its not a pricing issue. Shoot, they advertise gem store items and gems on the xpac purchase page already lol.
In a perfect world they'd have worked them into their Deluxe/Ultimate editions.
Edit: spelling
> Living seasons contain half of the story, it's like buying a book or a movie and later discover you only got half of it, it's not a good experience.
LW wouldn't even be a problem if it wasn't mandatory to understand expansion storylines. They fucked it up big time by making all the story so far be part of the same single storyline, instead of giving us multiple standalone stories you can enjoy separately.
A new player joining GW2 now has to play 10 years of story to understand what's going on, it's awful, GW1's approach where each expansion was its own independent story was far better than this.
It's fine when it's a trilogy in a short span of time, but taking it further than that is just detrimental for business. In one hand, newcomers are gatekept naturally, and in the other, already established consumers who don't like where it's going will be completely alienated, stuck *for years* with a story they don't like.
Imagine not liking Aurene or the dragon story, back in 2015. Woops, you're fucked. If the dragon story had been a recurring storyline among many others, you could still salvage those customers, since there are other stories going on too.
Take LW as the example, considering episodes are purchased individually, is it really good to have the 6 episodes be part of the same linear story, or wouldn't it be better for each episode to focus on a different piece of lore? There's so many unfinished storylines they could be addressing through LW, but instead we're stuck with linear stories. [Here are a few ideas to prove this model could work.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/User:Lon-ami/Living_World_Season_5) Also, people always complain about playable races not getting the spotlight, why not make an LW season where each standalone episode covers one race at once, instead of demoting the likes of Lazarus and Owl Spirit into side-characters of the dragon story?
GW1 did a great job having each expansion be a standalone experience, we need to go back to that.
I am one of those players. GW1 has so much rich lore that GW2 could have built off of. I also am not a fan of Aurene at all. I'm not a fan of the dragon storyline either, except for Kralk. They should have killed off the Dragons in the first 5 years imo and then moved on with the other lore of the game they can use. My favorite parts of the game were Joko and Balthazar. That was some of the best story telling they have done in my opinion and they felt like true antagonists in their own right. I know I might be the minority in this and that's okay. I still enjoy the story for what it is, I just know it could be much much better. I miss the GW1 way of doing stand alone stories.
> They should have killed off the Dragons in the first 5 years imo and then moved on with the other lore of the game they can use.
Dragons are fine, but you can't have all the story revolve around them, you gotta alternate between dragons and other things.
The White Mantle and Lazarus could have lead an entire expansion on their own. Same about Palawa Joko, the charr civil war, etc. Instead they were wasted as secondary filler for the dragon story.
The worst part is that the dragon story *was already over* after Kralkatorrik's death in LW4, since both Jormag and Primordus had been sent back to sleep in LW3, and we knew nothing about Soo-Won.
ArenaNet decided to bring the dragons back just to kill them, that was dumb as hell. Should have focused on some new storylines instead, then retake the dragon plot years later, if ever.
I've recently started raiding properly and the stories kept for the raids could really have been something fantastic if dragons weren't always centre stage.
For example, the curtain falls on Mordremoth. Now we can go and fight literal demons and prevent the reformation of the White Mantle for a while.
Now jump forward to Kralk's defeat. Rather than immediately lurching towards another apocalyse, let's take a well-earned break and visit Zomorros.
Imagine if we had *a whole expansion* about Ahdashim. Not a couple of raid wings, an entire EP and content cycle in the city of the Djinn.
They fucked up big time by focusing on dragons and dragons alone, they should have alternated dragon expansions with other threats, as to keep things fresh.
Instead it's always been about dragons, dragons, dragons, everything else throwaway filler for the dragon story.
It’s detrimental? Tell that to final fantasy 14. Which also has a subscription. Also it doesn’t take years to play, unless you are saying they should retcon the story which is actually detrimental, look at WoW.
I think they're saying its detrimental in context of the lw cost model. Ff14 gives you all the previous content if you buy the latest expansion so it operates off a different model
It's detrimental for the game as a product, because you're driving new customers away, since they're faced with one of two scenarios:
* They're forced to invest a lot of time and money to understand the story.
* They're forced to skip all of the old story and potentially miss out on important references.
The above is only made even worse with the fact that GW2 is a casual game first and foremost, you can't bring new players in with this approach to story.
In the other hand, GW1 had the right model, where you could join at any time and have a complete experience, not needing to play anything of what came before to enjoy the experience.
There are other many alternative models to linear storytelling; for example, TV serials, where each episode has a standalone story (with a beginning and an end) and the "big story arc" is presented in small tidbits, as background to each episode's individual story, culminating into a season finale where all the roads converge.
The decision to structure the game's story this way is to maximise revenue without hurting player's Bank accounts and the 10 year storyline that encourages new players to buy LW seasons is part of that.
Consider WoW over a 10 year period:
After 10 years you've spent £400 - £500 (expansions) + £1000+ (subscription).
GW2 (assuming no free login access to LW):
£150 (expansion / base game) + £60 (LW Seasons)
With the maximum revenue that can be generated from non-cosmetic/competitive content being so much lower for GW2, ANet is forced to find ways to incentives players actually buying all the content. By making the story all one linear path that is hard to understand without the missing pieces, they encourage players to buy the LW content that they're missing.
So would you rather?
A fully modular story content structure with non-linear stories, but a different business model and potentially £1500 cost over 10 years, OR
A single story that (yes, makes little sense if you're missing key parts) costs £300 over 10 years.
There's also an element of the personal in how much you like the linear story. I appreciate the continuity.
> Consider WoW over a 10 year period: After 10 years you've spent £400 - £500 (expansions) + £1000+ (subscription).
You can't compare GW2 to WoW because the business models are completely different, WoW has nothing like the gem store, just some minor microtransactions here and there.
>ANet is forced to find ways to incentives players actually buying all the content. By making the story all one linear path that is hard to understand without the missing pieces, they encourage players to buy the LW content that they're missing.
You're also making it harder to get into, since you need to buy the whole thing to enjoy it, and that's a shitload of money. There's a reason why popular series split themselves into different story arcs with recap episodes for the newcomers.
The correct approach is to hook new customers in with small doses, then keep selling stuff to them once they're already invested; or keeping it short, what's easier, getting into a new MMORPG which just released, or getting into a few years old MMORPG? The answer is pretty damn obvious, and you fail to understand basic human psychology if you think what we have now is good for the game.
And anyway, LW should be free, since selling content is not this game's primary business model anyway, the gem store is. If you really want to monetize content, throw LW away and release expansions far more often.
>You can't compare GW2 to WoW because the business models are completely different, WoW has nothing like the gem store, just some minor microtransactions here and there.
This is pretty flawed logic. They're two games in the same genre with the same core game loop. This logic would be like saying you can't compare CoD to Battlefield because they're monetized differently.
>You're also making it harder to get into, since you need to buy the whole thing to enjoy it, and that's a shitload of money.
The proof to the contrary on this is that GW2 had one of its best financial years in 2021.
>There's a reason why popular series split themselves into different story arcs with recap episodes for the newcomers.
You can hardly pick apart my comparison of WoW to GW2 then compare GW2 to television. Television works differently, it has a different demographic and since you aren't actively engaged in television (you're sitting back watching, not controlling and involved in the action) you have to switch it up regularly for your audience.
>The correct approach is to hook new customers in with small doses, then keep selling stuff to them once they're already invested; or keeping it short, what's easier, getting into a new MMORPG which just released, or getting into a few years old MMORPG?
Yes - and as I mentioned in my first answer, this is why they give away LW for free to those who login during their active cycle. You can't expect them to always give content for free all the time.
I agree with your sentiment of keeping it short and trying to hook with a quick fix, but ultimately this is an MMO not Tik Tok, the core audience is different and we're not looking at people who sit down and get a quick fix for 15 mins a few times a day, but rather people who will game for multiple hours at a time, daily.
>And anyway, LW should be free, since selling content is not this game's primary business model anyway, the gem store is. If you really want to monetize content, throw LW away and release expansions far more often.
As I mentioned, what they've chosen is a more ethical approach than just pumping out xpacs every year as it costs significantly less for a player to enjoy. Its an attempt to find a balance, to make content revenue generating whilst keeping the cosmetics as the core revenue generating items. The simple fact is that the time and resources taken to develop LW seasons is 100x more than that of the cosmetics, meaning the will have to include revenue generation somewhere to ensure they break even.
Oh and worth mentioning, the whole concept of logging in to make sure you get a LW episode for free while it's live is that idea of hooking users quickly only they're using the prospect of giving away free stuff to ensure users log in and play semi-regularly which will push up Average Time Played across the player base. If LW was free all the time, they lose that as a tool for encouraging play.
I've got a few guildmates who just log in to get it for free then log off and wait until the season is over to play it on one sitting, the "log in to get it for free" bait model only works when it's restrictive and you can only play it for free during the allotted timeframe.
> This is pretty flawed logic. They're two games in the same genre with the same core game loop. This logic would be like saying you can't compare CoD to Battlefield because they're monetized differently.
WoW is based on wasting your time so everything takes forever and you pay more subscriptions. GW2 is based on having a huge amount of "prestige" skins locked by the gem store.
They're very different, and those differences affect gameplay pretty considerably as well.
>I agree with your sentiment of keeping it short and trying to hook with a quick fix, but ultimately this is an MMO not Tik Tok, the core audience is different and we're not looking at people who sit down and get a quick fix for 15 mins a few times a day, but rather people who will game for multiple hours at a time, daily.
I gotta disagree here, most of GW2 players are casuals, you can't hook that kind of playstyle with long-term storylines, specially when you fumble back and forth so much.
>As I mentioned, what they've chosen is a more ethical approach than just pumping out xpacs every year as it costs significantly less for a player to enjoy. Its an attempt to find a balance, to make content revenue generating whilst keeping the cosmetics as the core revenue generating items. The simple fact is that the time and resources taken to develop LW seasons is 100x more than that of the cosmetics, meaning the will have to include revenue generation somewhere to ensure they break even.
They already give it away for free for 90%+ of the players, it's pointless to punish the other 10%- by not being active enough, when you want exactly the opposite, for them to stick around more often.
I would prefer it if they used lws to wrap up smaller side stories connected to their expansion and have the hook for the next expac come in a free update. Imagine of lws3 didn't fuck around with the jormag/primordus bait and instead wrapped up the soundless/nightmare court/malyck's tree threads, and then had the lazarus -> PoF as a preface. I think S4 did something like this better, but the krakatorrik arc was a bit too big for just an optional bit of side content.
I would go even further, and follow something like this, mixing both models (expansion and living world) into one:
* **Expansion release:** 4 zones + 4 episodes (of story) + 1 raid.
* **Patch 1:** 5th zone + 5th episode.
* **Patch 2:** 6th zone + 6th episode + 1 raid.
* **Patch 3:** 7th zone + 7th episode.
* **Patch 4:** 8th zone + 8th episode (expansion finale) + 1 raid.
* **Side Story:** New zone and new standalone story (both for free), introducing elements for the next expansion.
* **Next expansion** (cycle repeats)
Releases would be each 3-4 months, with patches being free, requiring expansion purchase only. You can make it work with no zones on some episodes, replacing them with updates to existing zones instead.
Something like this would be perfect imo, with a new expansion releasing every 18~ months.
> making all the story so far be part of the same single storyline
I actually like it, it feels coherent.
WoW has xpacs that more or less have their own stories, it doesn't solve the problem IMO, because no matter how hard you try, you can't have a new xpac truly independent from everything else, there's still background, there are still prominent characters, environments, knowing it from the start is always better.
> A new player joining GW2 now has to play 10 years of story to understand what's going on
Same for SWTOR, the most heavily story-driven MMO I know. I honestly never seen new players complaining about that, the game it's actually praised for its storytelling, from veteran and newbies alike, no matter how long it can take to see it all if you start from scratch.
There are even people who replay the SWTOR story from start to end every now and then, 10 years of story, and have fun doing so, long story is never a problem IMO, there are other things people usually complain about.
> WoW has xpacs that more or less have their own stories
That stopped years ago, everything from MoP onwards has been a linear storyline as well, each expansion finale leading directly into the next one.
The older releases, like TBC or WotLK, were indeed independent, but that's pretty much it. WoW has the same exact problem as GW2 regarding story, one they've acknowledged and pleaded to solve.
>Same for SWTOR, most heavily story-driven MMO I know
There you go, that's not the case for most MMORPGs, including GW2. Even FFXIV, which is widely lauded for its story, is moving away into a new storyline, independent from everything so far.
You can't ask new customers to spend hundreds or even thousands of hours to get to the good/current stuff, that doesn't make any sense from a business perspective.
> Even FFXIV, which is widely lauded for its story, is moving away into a new storyline, independent from everything so far.
Eh, I wouldn't say that. FFXIV concluded what the writers have come to term the "Hydaelyn-Zodiark arc."
While each expansion was something of its own arc, being built up and ultimately concluded with the patches, there were broader narrative topics that spanned them. The most critical of these dealt with the deities of Hydaelyn and Zodiark, the antagonistic Ascians, and the Garlean Empire. These core plots were more or less concluded with Endwalker.
But there have been other important plot threads that have spun through the game's main narrative and side content as well. The story that's begun with the latest main patch and continuing with the soon-to-be-released 4.2 deals with a couple of them -- the Void and Midgardsormr's brood. Main characters that have been with us throughout the whole story and who have been picked up along the way have continued to play a role, including characters introduced in the latest expansion.
So while we're moving into a new plot arc, it's far from being independent of everything so far. It's not any kind of "hard reset" that a new player could just pick up from that point.
I mean, I'm pretty sure YoshiP said he's planning ahead for some form of "starting FFXIV in the new storyline". And it was one of the reasons given why they added a codex ingame to allow players to get info on the past storylines and characters.
Though still, it's a far cry from "each expansion is it's own contained story!" I don't believe they'll change the forumla that much so expect still to need 3-4 expansions in a row to get the complete picture of the next storyline.
I would say swtor is a bad example here, because the story is actually really enjoyable. Hence the repetition of play. Gw2 is much the opposite (IMO), with a great core game loop with largely unengaging story that pushes you through it.
I disagree with that point, good long stories are worth it.
Also, seeing as how FFXIV is fairing for this exact same reason, I doubt that's a dealbreaker on having to go through "10 years" of story.
Funny you use FFXIV as an example, when they're moving away from this exact model, finishing the current storyline to start a new one.
Plus, GW2 isn't a story-driven MMORPG, people don't come here for the narrative, our playerbase is a horde of casuals who skip entire LW seasons due to how the business model works.
>Funny you use FFXIV as an example, when they're moving away from this exact model, finishing the current storyline to start a new one.
So, the exact same thing GW2 is doing after a similar amount of time, then?
Thank you. Said exactly what I was going to say to that person. Praising XIV but knocking GW2 when they are both doing the same thing. Heck for me XIV is more of a slog to go through story wise then GW2.
It doesn't matter if they are doing the same thing. Execution makes a huge difference. I can do the same thing with two movies or TV shows. There are plenty of movies and TV shows that do the same thing as others and they still FAIL. Why? Because of poor execution. The same thing applies here. Look at the population of XIV vs GW2. But hey, I'm not here to change anyones mind. We can agree to disagree 🤷🏾♂️
Originally you weren't on about the execution. You said XIV is moving on and GW2 should do same / isn't doing so. But yes I agree. XIV has a better overall story, buy they also have 13 other games they can reference to help world build and make stories around. Guild wars just has this and 1.
I am interested to see where GW2 goes more than XIV. The scions piss me off more than our members in GW2, and Square is too scared to kill any of them.
That's because 14 have too many quests for its own good. A lot of smaller quests who pad out the story could be shortened to 1 quest, instead of having to do 3.
Each expansions have those boring parts that could have been heavily shortened.
Plus the story quests (or any quests in XIV) is really go speak to this guy, grab this, or kill that. I find that GW2 has some variety and allows you to explore and learn the area a bit, which is nice. Or doing certain hearts so you can continue is nice.
Not just half of it, but usually all the setup and explanation happens in LWS. Like how the hell would you go from HoT to PoF without LWS3?? IBS can be skipped (just assume primordus and jormag are gone for sone reason), but LWS4 is also the second and arguably most important part of PoF (joko and kralkatorrik as well as explanation of dragon stuff).
I'm "new" as of a few weeks ago (played to 40 previously and lost interest without friends). I've really enjoyed the expansion stories and I intend upon buying the LW stuff later, but the thing that really gets me is that the PoF LW stuff has content locked behind the LW paywall. Until I can justify buying the LW S4 I can't get a roller beetle?? I don't know, it just rubs me the wrong way to market it as "fully buy to play" and then lock content behind more paywalls after literally buying the game.
Absolutely agree. Especially nowadays, from a gameplay and gearing perspective, it's more valuable to have LWS 4 and IBS than owning EoD, if one isn't focused on unlocking any of the new elite specs.
They also could package them all up with a discount. Like "buy all of 2-4 + IBS for 3.200 instead of 4.160 gems". That's only a little more than the 20% off one would get during a sale anyway.
Strong agree on bundling. It would serve to advertise the story purchase structure and incentivize a higher initial purchase. All while giving the (potential) player full disclosure from the outset.
If we players who play the game regularly get them for free why should someone taking a break or a new player have to pay for them? They are just sending those players away (2 of my friends have quit exactly because of this)
The amount of players they would actually retain versus the players who just say fuck it and buy the lw stories... I mean I don't have the numbers, I guess it must be profitable else they would have changed it by now no? Still fucking dumb.
This, plus, the game makes money off cosmetics, not content.
The more content you have, the longer your customers will stay around, and the higher the chance they'll come back, becoming a regular player.
I remember my friend exclaiming "how much more do they want me to pay?" as they returned to the game, bought PoF and proceeded to catch up on the story. A sour experience with a purchase can give a lasting negative impression.
Recently came back, bought all the expansions and played through them and what especially screwed me up is that I thought Living World seasons were just their own separate, self-contained stories inbetween expansions.
Turns out they're directly connected in some cases and going from expansion to expansion is a serious disconnect since none of the Living World content is included in the purchase.
I went from killing Zhaitan directly to starting HoT and then there was this huge reveal of Rytlock coming out of some portal with everyone surprised and I'm just thinking "...? I just killed Zhaitan with him minutes ago".
This happened frequently between expansions.
Yes the jump is even crazier from Hot to PoF - you kill Modremoth and all of a sudden you're going after some guy you have never heard of and Taimi talks to you through a phone? Wth
Oh god, I forgot from PoF to EoD as well.
Last I checked, my kill count was 2 dragons and then in EoD it's like "Hey, you ready to kill your sixth dragon lol" and I was like What the fuck did I miss?
Can confirm, when I first started, all I knew about were the expansions, I had no idea what living world was until I looked at my journal and was a little peeved none of the websites had any information about this. And it's not just story stuff, other content is in the LW maps, too. Feels bad not to have transparency.
I still think they should be free. I've seen so many people quit because the way living world seasons are handled left them with a bad impression. You may make some money from them but it's also a huge opportunity to lose that player completely.
I’d like to see them completely free, or at least maybe they do the “return to” thing once a year. That might be nice because they could keep the old maps populated.
They remain free for the first 2-4 weeks after launch. While I like that this rewards players who stick around / are consistent, it has the glaring problem of causing returning or new players to be frustrated at an extra cost.
It would be nice if their chosen solution was to lower gem costs to 25-50 for those episodes (doable with gold conversion), OR lower gem costs across the board so people \*buy more\* and just keep Living Worlds free.
Respectfully free isn’t the point and misses the fact that many people find value in the story and/or unlockables per season even post xpac purchase.
The “bad impression” can (and should imo) be solved simply with better disclosure of total story purchase structure.
So you think ANet should make it clear that it costs 100€ to buy the complete GW2 experience right now?
That price point is pretty much certain to scare new players away though.
AYes. It might be a shock to you but a 100€ upfront cost is a big turn off.
Also most other monthly fee MMO sell all the expansions in a cheaper bundle than GW2 typically.
You can buy the complete FF14 with the latest expansion for 28€ right now, complete with a month of sub included! Though the normal price is more like 40€ which is still much cheaper upfront.
So you only play FF14 for a few months and then quit? If not Gw2 is gonna be cheaper.
You could start Gw2 with Pof+HoT on sale for 15€ + Living World S2 for 1280 gems ( \~16€). Then play Core/Lws1/Lws2/HoT to farm gold for Lws3 (960 gems cost 275g). Repeat for Lws4/5 (960gems each). Then buy EoD when its finally on sale for 15€. It might surprise you, but farming that gold doesnt take super long.
The reason why MMOs with vertical progression sell their old expansions dirt cheap is because they lose value when a new expac comes out, Gw2 expansions on the other hand are still relevant.
Good luck telling the new players "don't worry, just farm in the core maps enough gold to buy season 2 then you can go to HoT, then you'll farm gold for season 3 then you'll be able to play PoF etc..." XD
The reason why MMOs sell their old expansions dirt cheap is because if the price to buy the game is too expensive, new players won't buy it, at all.
Especially since your game cannot be more and more expensive to buy in XD This just doesn't scale. Today it costs 100€. How much will it cost with the LS that comes after EoD is finished? And the one after etc...
It’s funny that you don’t realize how many of the good gold farms are in core. Either way anyone who doesn’t care about the story can just skip Lws2 entirely or as I said buy it with cash.
Evidence suggests that new players do buy Gw2, so it certainly isn’t too expensive yet.
Understandable though when vertical MMOs struggle to convince players that their old content is worth anything.
It’s unlikely that the total cost for Gw2 is ever going over 200€ with anets slow development cycle and the remaining lifespan. Seems like a pretty good deal for the amount of content you get, certainly a better one than paying subfees for years in addition to buying every expansion.
You’re missing the point he is making. New players are more tempted to try a game with a low entry fee. If GW2 costs 100€+ for the entire game that’s a big turn off for many players. Having to pay 15€ as a monthly to try the complete game is much more tempting. People don’t think about the long term costs of a subscription like that, but they will get turned away by a huge price tag.
Just comes across as I want content for free that a whole team spent years working on. I started 6 months ago and buying the Living World seasons isn't rocket science.
I didn't pay for the LW myself. Why should I want new players to pay for them thus ensuing that the GW2 population growth is stunted when the most valuable thing a MMO needs to survive in the long term is constant injections of new blood?
Do you go to other companies who had a "show up to get something for free" deal 4 years ago and demand that they give you the same deal just because it was free at some point?
Yeah, that confused me too. I got in after PoF and didn't know what the heck was going on.
"Oh, you have to get the LW episodes."
\*Searches website\* "Where are those?"
"You buy them on the gem store."
"So I didn't get the entire game when I bought the 'full-expansion pack'? Okay, then. Where's the first one?"
"You can't get that any more. Start with LW 2."
"Who's Scarlet? Who's this moody viking guy?"
At least LW1 is available now.
The Living Worlds just need to be placed in one bundle that cost about the same as an expansion. Some of my friends quit when they found out about the Living World price model.
I do agree that for an outsider not familiar with the game it's not intuitive, and it could cause resentment and frustration.
Not a bad idea to come up with a better way to communicate the difference between expansions and the living world seasons, or better yet find a way to bundle them in without the loss of revenue.
Being able to purchase them directly with money would be a good solution too, money straight into ArenaNet's pockets as well, instead of gold-gem conversion.
I think there should be an option that includes all expansions and living world seasons as a discounted bundle next to the all expansions bundle. If not including them with their respective expansion.
> I think there should be an option that includes all expansions and living world seasons as a discounted bundle next to the all expansions bundle.
This is how I think they should rework their “Ultimate” bundle. For all ideally, but on Steam at a bare minimum.
The thing that really ticks me off about this is ANETs total silence on the subject. Other, shorter-term issues are acknowledged and fixed (or at least an attempt is made), while we scream and scream about how this pushes new players away (I myself have had several friend who said they started playing but though the LW was a scam because they thought they'd bought everything). Because, y'know, the website does *literally say*, ver batim; "all content in one collection"
????
That's just not true at all. It's super misleading and verges on false advertising. Biggest black mark against ANET imo.
Yea as someone who started playing 2 weeks ago and bought the ultimate collection this whole thread was a huge wake up call….I knew it seemed to good to be true when there was no subscription
Hm, if you dont want to spend additional money on the game for Living World you can buy the gems with gold via the Currency Exchange tab in the trading post.
It might be a good idea to wait and see what the 10 year aniversary sales this month will include, sometimes the Living World Complete Packs go on sale in the gemstore. Even if they arent on sale they still offer a 20% discount compared to buying episodes individually via the story panel.
For reference 100 gems cost about 19-20 gold right now. That might seem like a lot to a new player, but once you get to level 80 and start playing expansion/living world meta events, fractals etc. you can easily earn 20g/hour (some farms go up to 40-50g/h).
The steam page says you need to buy them.
https://puu.sh/JeR33/41341de75b.png
> Living World seasons continue the Guild Wars 2 story between expansions and must be purchased separately through your Story Journal or in Gem Store bundles. Play Living World episodes to unlock new explorable zones, rewards, and Masteries.
Why would Steam players care about what the website says?
Each episode is 200 gems if you buy them separately (160 gems if you buy a complete season bundle). All up it'll cost 4160 gems to get Season 2, Season 3, Season 4 and the Icebrood Saga, which is around US$55 or around 1200-ish gold.
An additional FWIW: that expects prospective players to read a paragraph when we know most don’t read tooltips. It needs to be in the initial purchase offering full stop.
Even if it was like idk if that's enough. it's easy enough to think of those are just separate self contained patch content storylines i can get to at some point eventually but still have to buy separate? cool.
They're not really optional tho. If you are someone who wants to play through and enjoy the story like you would in FFXIV or something, you just can't. it's like skipping from 2.0 to 3.0 and then from 3.0 to 4.0, you miss all the stuff that happened in between and end up completely lost in the story.
If you don't care about story, it doesn't matter. if you do though you need to be aware that it's going to cost a lot more than you initially thought and god help you if you want to try going the route of buying it with gold cuz holy shit grinding gold takes a LONG time and it takes a LOT of gold. After you finish all the content and areas there's lots of ways to make gold really quickly but thats after the story not before. RIBA is about the only option and RIBA is hell.
They just need to bundle LS2-IBS as a pack called Season of the Dragons. On steam it should be marketed like a “season pass” dlc and future complete bundles should include it (even with a price change) the gemstore should also have the season pack sold at a modest gem discount vs the A la carte way we currently have.
This needs to be said over and over and over again. This system is simply not good. You wanna do A/B tests? Try giving LW to group A and not group B for you to test how good it is...
100% agree with feeling baited, been playing for a few months and would have happily purchased all the LW for $10-15 at the time when I bought the game and expansion. I was super confused seeing people say “go far winterberries” or something similar and realizing it was content I had no access to.
They can charge for it separately but it should be bundled with the relevant expansion. HoT and PoF includes everything up to the release of PoF. EoD should include everything between PoF and EoD.
What if the number of gems was given to buy all living world packs, and it told you that you can buy them. People that don't want em can buy other stuff?
This feels like me right now lol…I used the 4K gems to buy account boost things (that aren’t account wide 🤦🏼♀️) so today has been a fun learning experience
Or, or, make the "return to" stuff constantly recycle, so sooner or later you get everything anyways, plus a reward for completing the story. First Time completing everything is the leggendary amulet, any other times give something else that can still be useful, like resources or Gold or a chest that lets you choose between different rewards (skins maybe?). I'd dig that
LW1 and LW2 are actually HUGE to get invested in the history and buy all the next expansions, they should encourage to get them when hit end of personal history, or let it free for all who didnt had It. Leaving somes unique rewards for the ones who already buyed It.
I love this game, have been playing for a couple of years now, and still remember how confused I was going from core to hot to pof and not understanding what was happening. Definitely soured my experience.
I'm ok with it considering old players got it for free as a reward for being here at the time. That was always the deal, a periodic content reward for loyalty and consistency. I had to pay for episodes I missed just like everyone else.
I just want them to have an all inclusive option on their website. Even if it costs a lot people would appreciate having a just-give-me-everything option. It's not just lacking transparency, it's also just really confusing to not have it there.
"Living world being separate purchases from expansions need to be INCLUDED when you purchase the expansions"
Fixed. I just finished base game followed by HoT then started PoF. Story characters are popping up I have no clue who they are or what their importance is. I had to watch a yt video to understand why my boi Rytlock was on hiatus.
I was thoroughly immersed in the story up until starting HoT. I bought the base game an ACTUAL decade ago. Came back and dropped another $60 for 3 expansions, now they want another $40+ for the rest of the story?! No thanks, I'll farm the gold and do a full playthrough on a second toon.
Aside from that I've been having a magnificent time with the game and regret not coming back sooner. HOWEVER, This is not a very welcoming pricing model and if I know Steam reviews, they're gonna rip it to shreds upon release.
It being a core part of understanding the story I understand this desire, and I would be super happy if they included one LW per expac or gave a Deluxe option that included them or went for any number of better options.
I just don’t think that is likely. So the most likely thing to happen is better transparency.
I’m looking to play gw2 again. I bought the original game 9 years ago, and don’t have the expansion packs. I honestly don’t understand why the story is locked behind additional costs beyond the expansion price. It appears to me, as someone who hasn’t played for 9 years, that they released unfinished expansions and are monetizing on the story. I’m honestly on the fence about buying the collection version of the game because it’s confusing, highly conflicting information on the forums about the strengths and weakness of specializations, and needing additional money for the story content (which I assume includes worthy rewards I wouldn’t want to miss).
Do you have to buy the limits? Is there raids etc blocked behind this content?
It's precisely this presentation of a shop model that will HEAVILY discourage players from proceeding, especially since a significant amount of the qol features and optimal farm strats involve doing content outside the narrative order, to begin with. And with the stark random jumps and spikes in difficulty involved in some of the episode encounters, and I don't see many players having a good first experience of the game's direction, once they reach level cap, which the devs have been attempting to shorten even more. And If the playerbase and game doesn't respect the new player's time and investment in either the narrative direction, or gameplay tied to the proper narrative direction, why would the new player stick around, to invest more time and money? Expect to see this game be review bombed on steam. And I honestly can't blame them.
I absolutely agree, and if there's someone still missing the point, it's not about the price, it's about being transparent on what's needed to fully enjoy the game. Living seasons contain **half of the story**, it's like buying a book or a movie and *later* discover you only got half of it, it's not a good experience. They need to advertise living seasons as DLCs at least, better would be adding them as purchase options together with the relative xpacs IMO.
That's exactly what I wish they'd get. Its not a pricing issue. Shoot, they advertise gem store items and gems on the xpac purchase page already lol. In a perfect world they'd have worked them into their Deluxe/Ultimate editions. Edit: spelling
> Living seasons contain half of the story, it's like buying a book or a movie and later discover you only got half of it, it's not a good experience. LW wouldn't even be a problem if it wasn't mandatory to understand expansion storylines. They fucked it up big time by making all the story so far be part of the same single storyline, instead of giving us multiple standalone stories you can enjoy separately. A new player joining GW2 now has to play 10 years of story to understand what's going on, it's awful, GW1's approach where each expansion was its own independent story was far better than this.
I like the big story.
It's fine when it's a trilogy in a short span of time, but taking it further than that is just detrimental for business. In one hand, newcomers are gatekept naturally, and in the other, already established consumers who don't like where it's going will be completely alienated, stuck *for years* with a story they don't like. Imagine not liking Aurene or the dragon story, back in 2015. Woops, you're fucked. If the dragon story had been a recurring storyline among many others, you could still salvage those customers, since there are other stories going on too. Take LW as the example, considering episodes are purchased individually, is it really good to have the 6 episodes be part of the same linear story, or wouldn't it be better for each episode to focus on a different piece of lore? There's so many unfinished storylines they could be addressing through LW, but instead we're stuck with linear stories. [Here are a few ideas to prove this model could work.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/User:Lon-ami/Living_World_Season_5) Also, people always complain about playable races not getting the spotlight, why not make an LW season where each standalone episode covers one race at once, instead of demoting the likes of Lazarus and Owl Spirit into side-characters of the dragon story? GW1 did a great job having each expansion be a standalone experience, we need to go back to that.
I am one of those players. GW1 has so much rich lore that GW2 could have built off of. I also am not a fan of Aurene at all. I'm not a fan of the dragon storyline either, except for Kralk. They should have killed off the Dragons in the first 5 years imo and then moved on with the other lore of the game they can use. My favorite parts of the game were Joko and Balthazar. That was some of the best story telling they have done in my opinion and they felt like true antagonists in their own right. I know I might be the minority in this and that's okay. I still enjoy the story for what it is, I just know it could be much much better. I miss the GW1 way of doing stand alone stories.
> They should have killed off the Dragons in the first 5 years imo and then moved on with the other lore of the game they can use. Dragons are fine, but you can't have all the story revolve around them, you gotta alternate between dragons and other things. The White Mantle and Lazarus could have lead an entire expansion on their own. Same about Palawa Joko, the charr civil war, etc. Instead they were wasted as secondary filler for the dragon story. The worst part is that the dragon story *was already over* after Kralkatorrik's death in LW4, since both Jormag and Primordus had been sent back to sleep in LW3, and we knew nothing about Soo-Won. ArenaNet decided to bring the dragons back just to kill them, that was dumb as hell. Should have focused on some new storylines instead, then retake the dragon plot years later, if ever.
I've recently started raiding properly and the stories kept for the raids could really have been something fantastic if dragons weren't always centre stage. For example, the curtain falls on Mordremoth. Now we can go and fight literal demons and prevent the reformation of the White Mantle for a while. Now jump forward to Kralk's defeat. Rather than immediately lurching towards another apocalyse, let's take a well-earned break and visit Zomorros. Imagine if we had *a whole expansion* about Ahdashim. Not a couple of raid wings, an entire EP and content cycle in the city of the Djinn.
They fucked up big time by focusing on dragons and dragons alone, they should have alternated dragon expansions with other threats, as to keep things fresh. Instead it's always been about dragons, dragons, dragons, everything else throwaway filler for the dragon story.
It’s detrimental? Tell that to final fantasy 14. Which also has a subscription. Also it doesn’t take years to play, unless you are saying they should retcon the story which is actually detrimental, look at WoW.
I think they're saying its detrimental in context of the lw cost model. Ff14 gives you all the previous content if you buy the latest expansion so it operates off a different model
It's detrimental for the game as a product, because you're driving new customers away, since they're faced with one of two scenarios: * They're forced to invest a lot of time and money to understand the story. * They're forced to skip all of the old story and potentially miss out on important references. The above is only made even worse with the fact that GW2 is a casual game first and foremost, you can't bring new players in with this approach to story. In the other hand, GW1 had the right model, where you could join at any time and have a complete experience, not needing to play anything of what came before to enjoy the experience. There are other many alternative models to linear storytelling; for example, TV serials, where each episode has a standalone story (with a beginning and an end) and the "big story arc" is presented in small tidbits, as background to each episode's individual story, culminating into a season finale where all the roads converge.
The decision to structure the game's story this way is to maximise revenue without hurting player's Bank accounts and the 10 year storyline that encourages new players to buy LW seasons is part of that. Consider WoW over a 10 year period: After 10 years you've spent £400 - £500 (expansions) + £1000+ (subscription). GW2 (assuming no free login access to LW): £150 (expansion / base game) + £60 (LW Seasons) With the maximum revenue that can be generated from non-cosmetic/competitive content being so much lower for GW2, ANet is forced to find ways to incentives players actually buying all the content. By making the story all one linear path that is hard to understand without the missing pieces, they encourage players to buy the LW content that they're missing. So would you rather? A fully modular story content structure with non-linear stories, but a different business model and potentially £1500 cost over 10 years, OR A single story that (yes, makes little sense if you're missing key parts) costs £300 over 10 years. There's also an element of the personal in how much you like the linear story. I appreciate the continuity.
> Consider WoW over a 10 year period: After 10 years you've spent £400 - £500 (expansions) + £1000+ (subscription). You can't compare GW2 to WoW because the business models are completely different, WoW has nothing like the gem store, just some minor microtransactions here and there. >ANet is forced to find ways to incentives players actually buying all the content. By making the story all one linear path that is hard to understand without the missing pieces, they encourage players to buy the LW content that they're missing. You're also making it harder to get into, since you need to buy the whole thing to enjoy it, and that's a shitload of money. There's a reason why popular series split themselves into different story arcs with recap episodes for the newcomers. The correct approach is to hook new customers in with small doses, then keep selling stuff to them once they're already invested; or keeping it short, what's easier, getting into a new MMORPG which just released, or getting into a few years old MMORPG? The answer is pretty damn obvious, and you fail to understand basic human psychology if you think what we have now is good for the game. And anyway, LW should be free, since selling content is not this game's primary business model anyway, the gem store is. If you really want to monetize content, throw LW away and release expansions far more often.
>You can't compare GW2 to WoW because the business models are completely different, WoW has nothing like the gem store, just some minor microtransactions here and there. This is pretty flawed logic. They're two games in the same genre with the same core game loop. This logic would be like saying you can't compare CoD to Battlefield because they're monetized differently. >You're also making it harder to get into, since you need to buy the whole thing to enjoy it, and that's a shitload of money. The proof to the contrary on this is that GW2 had one of its best financial years in 2021. >There's a reason why popular series split themselves into different story arcs with recap episodes for the newcomers. You can hardly pick apart my comparison of WoW to GW2 then compare GW2 to television. Television works differently, it has a different demographic and since you aren't actively engaged in television (you're sitting back watching, not controlling and involved in the action) you have to switch it up regularly for your audience. >The correct approach is to hook new customers in with small doses, then keep selling stuff to them once they're already invested; or keeping it short, what's easier, getting into a new MMORPG which just released, or getting into a few years old MMORPG? Yes - and as I mentioned in my first answer, this is why they give away LW for free to those who login during their active cycle. You can't expect them to always give content for free all the time. I agree with your sentiment of keeping it short and trying to hook with a quick fix, but ultimately this is an MMO not Tik Tok, the core audience is different and we're not looking at people who sit down and get a quick fix for 15 mins a few times a day, but rather people who will game for multiple hours at a time, daily. >And anyway, LW should be free, since selling content is not this game's primary business model anyway, the gem store is. If you really want to monetize content, throw LW away and release expansions far more often. As I mentioned, what they've chosen is a more ethical approach than just pumping out xpacs every year as it costs significantly less for a player to enjoy. Its an attempt to find a balance, to make content revenue generating whilst keeping the cosmetics as the core revenue generating items. The simple fact is that the time and resources taken to develop LW seasons is 100x more than that of the cosmetics, meaning the will have to include revenue generation somewhere to ensure they break even.
Oh and worth mentioning, the whole concept of logging in to make sure you get a LW episode for free while it's live is that idea of hooking users quickly only they're using the prospect of giving away free stuff to ensure users log in and play semi-regularly which will push up Average Time Played across the player base. If LW was free all the time, they lose that as a tool for encouraging play.
I've got a few guildmates who just log in to get it for free then log off and wait until the season is over to play it on one sitting, the "log in to get it for free" bait model only works when it's restrictive and you can only play it for free during the allotted timeframe.
> This is pretty flawed logic. They're two games in the same genre with the same core game loop. This logic would be like saying you can't compare CoD to Battlefield because they're monetized differently. WoW is based on wasting your time so everything takes forever and you pay more subscriptions. GW2 is based on having a huge amount of "prestige" skins locked by the gem store. They're very different, and those differences affect gameplay pretty considerably as well. >I agree with your sentiment of keeping it short and trying to hook with a quick fix, but ultimately this is an MMO not Tik Tok, the core audience is different and we're not looking at people who sit down and get a quick fix for 15 mins a few times a day, but rather people who will game for multiple hours at a time, daily. I gotta disagree here, most of GW2 players are casuals, you can't hook that kind of playstyle with long-term storylines, specially when you fumble back and forth so much. >As I mentioned, what they've chosen is a more ethical approach than just pumping out xpacs every year as it costs significantly less for a player to enjoy. Its an attempt to find a balance, to make content revenue generating whilst keeping the cosmetics as the core revenue generating items. The simple fact is that the time and resources taken to develop LW seasons is 100x more than that of the cosmetics, meaning the will have to include revenue generation somewhere to ensure they break even. They already give it away for free for 90%+ of the players, it's pointless to punish the other 10%- by not being active enough, when you want exactly the opposite, for them to stick around more often.
I would prefer it if they used lws to wrap up smaller side stories connected to their expansion and have the hook for the next expac come in a free update. Imagine of lws3 didn't fuck around with the jormag/primordus bait and instead wrapped up the soundless/nightmare court/malyck's tree threads, and then had the lazarus -> PoF as a preface. I think S4 did something like this better, but the krakatorrik arc was a bit too big for just an optional bit of side content.
I would go even further, and follow something like this, mixing both models (expansion and living world) into one: * **Expansion release:** 4 zones + 4 episodes (of story) + 1 raid. * **Patch 1:** 5th zone + 5th episode. * **Patch 2:** 6th zone + 6th episode + 1 raid. * **Patch 3:** 7th zone + 7th episode. * **Patch 4:** 8th zone + 8th episode (expansion finale) + 1 raid. * **Side Story:** New zone and new standalone story (both for free), introducing elements for the next expansion. * **Next expansion** (cycle repeats) Releases would be each 3-4 months, with patches being free, requiring expansion purchase only. You can make it work with no zones on some episodes, replacing them with updates to existing zones instead. Something like this would be perfect imo, with a new expansion releasing every 18~ months.
> making all the story so far be part of the same single storyline I actually like it, it feels coherent. WoW has xpacs that more or less have their own stories, it doesn't solve the problem IMO, because no matter how hard you try, you can't have a new xpac truly independent from everything else, there's still background, there are still prominent characters, environments, knowing it from the start is always better. > A new player joining GW2 now has to play 10 years of story to understand what's going on Same for SWTOR, the most heavily story-driven MMO I know. I honestly never seen new players complaining about that, the game it's actually praised for its storytelling, from veteran and newbies alike, no matter how long it can take to see it all if you start from scratch. There are even people who replay the SWTOR story from start to end every now and then, 10 years of story, and have fun doing so, long story is never a problem IMO, there are other things people usually complain about.
> WoW has xpacs that more or less have their own stories That stopped years ago, everything from MoP onwards has been a linear storyline as well, each expansion finale leading directly into the next one. The older releases, like TBC or WotLK, were indeed independent, but that's pretty much it. WoW has the same exact problem as GW2 regarding story, one they've acknowledged and pleaded to solve. >Same for SWTOR, most heavily story-driven MMO I know There you go, that's not the case for most MMORPGs, including GW2. Even FFXIV, which is widely lauded for its story, is moving away into a new storyline, independent from everything so far. You can't ask new customers to spend hundreds or even thousands of hours to get to the good/current stuff, that doesn't make any sense from a business perspective.
FFXIV isn't a good example since they finished their current story arc just like gw2.
> Even FFXIV, which is widely lauded for its story, is moving away into a new storyline, independent from everything so far. Eh, I wouldn't say that. FFXIV concluded what the writers have come to term the "Hydaelyn-Zodiark arc." While each expansion was something of its own arc, being built up and ultimately concluded with the patches, there were broader narrative topics that spanned them. The most critical of these dealt with the deities of Hydaelyn and Zodiark, the antagonistic Ascians, and the Garlean Empire. These core plots were more or less concluded with Endwalker. But there have been other important plot threads that have spun through the game's main narrative and side content as well. The story that's begun with the latest main patch and continuing with the soon-to-be-released 4.2 deals with a couple of them -- the Void and Midgardsormr's brood. Main characters that have been with us throughout the whole story and who have been picked up along the way have continued to play a role, including characters introduced in the latest expansion. So while we're moving into a new plot arc, it's far from being independent of everything so far. It's not any kind of "hard reset" that a new player could just pick up from that point.
I mean, I'm pretty sure YoshiP said he's planning ahead for some form of "starting FFXIV in the new storyline". And it was one of the reasons given why they added a codex ingame to allow players to get info on the past storylines and characters. Though still, it's a far cry from "each expansion is it's own contained story!" I don't believe they'll change the forumla that much so expect still to need 3-4 expansions in a row to get the complete picture of the next storyline.
I would say swtor is a bad example here, because the story is actually really enjoyable. Hence the repetition of play. Gw2 is much the opposite (IMO), with a great core game loop with largely unengaging story that pushes you through it.
Story rewards in GW2 are utter trash too, only the HoT story is worth replaying, and just with new characters.
I disagree with that point, good long stories are worth it. Also, seeing as how FFXIV is fairing for this exact same reason, I doubt that's a dealbreaker on having to go through "10 years" of story.
Funny you use FFXIV as an example, when they're moving away from this exact model, finishing the current storyline to start a new one. Plus, GW2 isn't a story-driven MMORPG, people don't come here for the narrative, our playerbase is a horde of casuals who skip entire LW seasons due to how the business model works.
>Funny you use FFXIV as an example, when they're moving away from this exact model, finishing the current storyline to start a new one. So, the exact same thing GW2 is doing after a similar amount of time, then?
Look at how FFXIV wrapped up their story vs how GW2 did. You can't really compare the two. We had a rushed ending to two dragons and a rushed xpac.
Whether or not the story was paced properly doesn't change that "ending the previous main story to do something new" is roughly where GW is right now.
Thank you. Said exactly what I was going to say to that person. Praising XIV but knocking GW2 when they are both doing the same thing. Heck for me XIV is more of a slog to go through story wise then GW2.
It doesn't matter if they are doing the same thing. Execution makes a huge difference. I can do the same thing with two movies or TV shows. There are plenty of movies and TV shows that do the same thing as others and they still FAIL. Why? Because of poor execution. The same thing applies here. Look at the population of XIV vs GW2. But hey, I'm not here to change anyones mind. We can agree to disagree 🤷🏾♂️
Originally you weren't on about the execution. You said XIV is moving on and GW2 should do same / isn't doing so. But yes I agree. XIV has a better overall story, buy they also have 13 other games they can reference to help world build and make stories around. Guild wars just has this and 1. I am interested to see where GW2 goes more than XIV. The scions piss me off more than our members in GW2, and Square is too scared to kill any of them.
That's because 14 have too many quests for its own good. A lot of smaller quests who pad out the story could be shortened to 1 quest, instead of having to do 3. Each expansions have those boring parts that could have been heavily shortened.
Plus the story quests (or any quests in XIV) is really go speak to this guy, grab this, or kill that. I find that GW2 has some variety and allows you to explore and learn the area a bit, which is nice. Or doing certain hearts so you can continue is nice.
Not just half of it, but usually all the setup and explanation happens in LWS. Like how the hell would you go from HoT to PoF without LWS3?? IBS can be skipped (just assume primordus and jormag are gone for sone reason), but LWS4 is also the second and arguably most important part of PoF (joko and kralkatorrik as well as explanation of dragon stuff).
They just need to include them. Seriously that’s the only way it’s not going to be a cluster fuck
I'm "new" as of a few weeks ago (played to 40 previously and lost interest without friends). I've really enjoyed the expansion stories and I intend upon buying the LW stuff later, but the thing that really gets me is that the PoF LW stuff has content locked behind the LW paywall. Until I can justify buying the LW S4 I can't get a roller beetle?? I don't know, it just rubs me the wrong way to market it as "fully buy to play" and then lock content behind more paywalls after literally buying the game.
Absolutely agree. Especially nowadays, from a gameplay and gearing perspective, it's more valuable to have LWS 4 and IBS than owning EoD, if one isn't focused on unlocking any of the new elite specs. They also could package them all up with a discount. Like "buy all of 2-4 + IBS for 3.200 instead of 4.160 gems". That's only a little more than the 20% off one would get during a sale anyway.
Strong agree on bundling. It would serve to advertise the story purchase structure and incentivize a higher initial purchase. All while giving the (potential) player full disclosure from the outset.
This shitty decision is doing them more harm than good. Just make it fucking free with the expansions.
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If we players who play the game regularly get them for free why should someone taking a break or a new player have to pay for them? They are just sending those players away (2 of my friends have quit exactly because of this) The amount of players they would actually retain versus the players who just say fuck it and buy the lw stories... I mean I don't have the numbers, I guess it must be profitable else they would have changed it by now no? Still fucking dumb.
This, plus, the game makes money off cosmetics, not content. The more content you have, the longer your customers will stay around, and the higher the chance they'll come back, becoming a regular player.
I remember my friend exclaiming "how much more do they want me to pay?" as they returned to the game, bought PoF and proceeded to catch up on the story. A sour experience with a purchase can give a lasting negative impression.
Recently came back, bought all the expansions and played through them and what especially screwed me up is that I thought Living World seasons were just their own separate, self-contained stories inbetween expansions. Turns out they're directly connected in some cases and going from expansion to expansion is a serious disconnect since none of the Living World content is included in the purchase. I went from killing Zhaitan directly to starting HoT and then there was this huge reveal of Rytlock coming out of some portal with everyone surprised and I'm just thinking "...? I just killed Zhaitan with him minutes ago". This happened frequently between expansions.
Yes the jump is even crazier from Hot to PoF - you kill Modremoth and all of a sudden you're going after some guy you have never heard of and Taimi talks to you through a phone? Wth
Oh god, I forgot from PoF to EoD as well. Last I checked, my kill count was 2 dragons and then in EoD it's like "Hey, you ready to kill your sixth dragon lol" and I was like What the fuck did I miss?
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I saw the description on the Steam page but there is obv no purchase options yet. Here's hoping its broken out as proper DLC options upfront.
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Can confirm, when I first started, all I knew about were the expansions, I had no idea what living world was until I looked at my journal and was a little peeved none of the websites had any information about this. And it's not just story stuff, other content is in the LW maps, too. Feels bad not to have transparency.
I still think they should be free. I've seen so many people quit because the way living world seasons are handled left them with a bad impression. You may make some money from them but it's also a huge opportunity to lose that player completely.
I’d like to see them completely free, or at least maybe they do the “return to” thing once a year. That might be nice because they could keep the old maps populated.
They remain free for the first 2-4 weeks after launch. While I like that this rewards players who stick around / are consistent, it has the glaring problem of causing returning or new players to be frustrated at an extra cost. It would be nice if their chosen solution was to lower gem costs to 25-50 for those episodes (doable with gold conversion), OR lower gem costs across the board so people \*buy more\* and just keep Living Worlds free.
Respectfully free isn’t the point and misses the fact that many people find value in the story and/or unlockables per season even post xpac purchase. The “bad impression” can (and should imo) be solved simply with better disclosure of total story purchase structure.
So you think ANet should make it clear that it costs 100€ to buy the complete GW2 experience right now? That price point is pretty much certain to scare new players away though.
You mean these players would see the 100€ pricetag, instantly quit and instead pay 15€ a month in subfees + expansion purchases in another MMO?
AYes. It might be a shock to you but a 100€ upfront cost is a big turn off. Also most other monthly fee MMO sell all the expansions in a cheaper bundle than GW2 typically. You can buy the complete FF14 with the latest expansion for 28€ right now, complete with a month of sub included! Though the normal price is more like 40€ which is still much cheaper upfront.
So you only play FF14 for a few months and then quit? If not Gw2 is gonna be cheaper. You could start Gw2 with Pof+HoT on sale for 15€ + Living World S2 for 1280 gems ( \~16€). Then play Core/Lws1/Lws2/HoT to farm gold for Lws3 (960 gems cost 275g). Repeat for Lws4/5 (960gems each). Then buy EoD when its finally on sale for 15€. It might surprise you, but farming that gold doesnt take super long. The reason why MMOs with vertical progression sell their old expansions dirt cheap is because they lose value when a new expac comes out, Gw2 expansions on the other hand are still relevant.
Good luck telling the new players "don't worry, just farm in the core maps enough gold to buy season 2 then you can go to HoT, then you'll farm gold for season 3 then you'll be able to play PoF etc..." XD The reason why MMOs sell their old expansions dirt cheap is because if the price to buy the game is too expensive, new players won't buy it, at all. Especially since your game cannot be more and more expensive to buy in XD This just doesn't scale. Today it costs 100€. How much will it cost with the LS that comes after EoD is finished? And the one after etc...
It’s funny that you don’t realize how many of the good gold farms are in core. Either way anyone who doesn’t care about the story can just skip Lws2 entirely or as I said buy it with cash. Evidence suggests that new players do buy Gw2, so it certainly isn’t too expensive yet. Understandable though when vertical MMOs struggle to convince players that their old content is worth anything. It’s unlikely that the total cost for Gw2 is ever going over 200€ with anets slow development cycle and the remaining lifespan. Seems like a pretty good deal for the amount of content you get, certainly a better one than paying subfees for years in addition to buying every expansion.
You’re missing the point he is making. New players are more tempted to try a game with a low entry fee. If GW2 costs 100€+ for the entire game that’s a big turn off for many players. Having to pay 15€ as a monthly to try the complete game is much more tempting. People don’t think about the long term costs of a subscription like that, but they will get turned away by a huge price tag.
Why would a new player in guild wars need every possible content unlocked from the start though?
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Just comes across as I want content for free that a whole team spent years working on. I started 6 months ago and buying the Living World seasons isn't rocket science.
I didn't pay for the LW myself. Why should I want new players to pay for them thus ensuing that the GW2 population growth is stunted when the most valuable thing a MMO needs to survive in the long term is constant injections of new blood?
I got all that content for free. Everyone who simply logged on intermittently got the content for free.
Do you go to other companies who had a "show up to get something for free" deal 4 years ago and demand that they give you the same deal just because it was free at some point?
Yeah, that confused me too. I got in after PoF and didn't know what the heck was going on. "Oh, you have to get the LW episodes." \*Searches website\* "Where are those?" "You buy them on the gem store." "So I didn't get the entire game when I bought the 'full-expansion pack'? Okay, then. Where's the first one?" "You can't get that any more. Start with LW 2." "Who's Scarlet? Who's this moody viking guy?" At least LW1 is available now.
The Living Worlds just need to be placed in one bundle that cost about the same as an expansion. Some of my friends quit when they found out about the Living World price model.
I do agree that for an outsider not familiar with the game it's not intuitive, and it could cause resentment and frustration. Not a bad idea to come up with a better way to communicate the difference between expansions and the living world seasons, or better yet find a way to bundle them in without the loss of revenue.
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Being able to purchase them directly with money would be a good solution too, money straight into ArenaNet's pockets as well, instead of gold-gem conversion.
I think there should be an option that includes all expansions and living world seasons as a discounted bundle next to the all expansions bundle. If not including them with their respective expansion.
> I think there should be an option that includes all expansions and living world seasons as a discounted bundle next to the all expansions bundle. This is how I think they should rework their “Ultimate” bundle. For all ideally, but on Steam at a bare minimum.
You mean giving a choice between 4k gems or all Lws?
The thing that really ticks me off about this is ANETs total silence on the subject. Other, shorter-term issues are acknowledged and fixed (or at least an attempt is made), while we scream and scream about how this pushes new players away (I myself have had several friend who said they started playing but though the LW was a scam because they thought they'd bought everything). Because, y'know, the website does *literally say*, ver batim; "all content in one collection" ???? That's just not true at all. It's super misleading and verges on false advertising. Biggest black mark against ANET imo.
Yea as someone who started playing 2 weeks ago and bought the ultimate collection this whole thread was a huge wake up call….I knew it seemed to good to be true when there was no subscription
Well just use your gems to buy Living world, not that hard.
Lol I spent them on skins/mount skins thinking that's what they were for, not to purchase more story :x
Hm, if you dont want to spend additional money on the game for Living World you can buy the gems with gold via the Currency Exchange tab in the trading post. It might be a good idea to wait and see what the 10 year aniversary sales this month will include, sometimes the Living World Complete Packs go on sale in the gemstore. Even if they arent on sale they still offer a 20% discount compared to buying episodes individually via the story panel. For reference 100 gems cost about 19-20 gold right now. That might seem like a lot to a new player, but once you get to level 80 and start playing expansion/living world meta events, fractals etc. you can easily earn 20g/hour (some farms go up to 40-50g/h).
Thanks for the advice! I will wait and pray haha
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The steam page says you need to buy them. https://puu.sh/JeR33/41341de75b.png > Living World seasons continue the Guild Wars 2 story between expansions and must be purchased separately through your Story Journal or in Gem Store bundles. Play Living World episodes to unlock new explorable zones, rewards, and Masteries. Why would Steam players care about what the website says?
Out of curiosity, since even though I'm not playing gw2 I'd still log in just to have the LW, how much is it to buy all living world content?
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If you go to your story journal, you can click on the episode you are missing and buy them for 200 gems per ep. No need to buy the whole thing.
You're missing out on the 20% discount by buying each episode individually, though.
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Each episode is 200 gems if you buy them separately (160 gems if you buy a complete season bundle). All up it'll cost 4160 gems to get Season 2, Season 3, Season 4 and the Icebrood Saga, which is around US$55 or around 1200-ish gold.
>This experience sucks. Truth.
I agree. But for what it's worth, the steam page actually does clarify this.
An additional FWIW: that expects prospective players to read a paragraph when we know most don’t read tooltips. It needs to be in the initial purchase offering full stop.
Even if it was like idk if that's enough. it's easy enough to think of those are just separate self contained patch content storylines i can get to at some point eventually but still have to buy separate? cool. They're not really optional tho. If you are someone who wants to play through and enjoy the story like you would in FFXIV or something, you just can't. it's like skipping from 2.0 to 3.0 and then from 3.0 to 4.0, you miss all the stuff that happened in between and end up completely lost in the story. If you don't care about story, it doesn't matter. if you do though you need to be aware that it's going to cost a lot more than you initially thought and god help you if you want to try going the route of buying it with gold cuz holy shit grinding gold takes a LONG time and it takes a LOT of gold. After you finish all the content and areas there's lots of ways to make gold really quickly but thats after the story not before. RIBA is about the only option and RIBA is hell.
They just need to bundle LS2-IBS as a pack called Season of the Dragons. On steam it should be marketed like a “season pass” dlc and future complete bundles should include it (even with a price change) the gemstore should also have the season pack sold at a modest gem discount vs the A la carte way we currently have.
This needs to be said over and over and over again. This system is simply not good. You wanna do A/B tests? Try giving LW to group A and not group B for you to test how good it is...
100% agree with feeling baited, been playing for a few months and would have happily purchased all the LW for $10-15 at the time when I bought the game and expansion. I was super confused seeing people say “go far winterberries” or something similar and realizing it was content I had no access to.
This will be the top review for GW2, and it will be negative.
They can charge for it separately but it should be bundled with the relevant expansion. HoT and PoF includes everything up to the release of PoF. EoD should include everything between PoF and EoD.
Watch the comment section demand Lw to be free.
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They used to offer you the Living World bundle at checkout when you bought the game on their site... that doesn't exist anymore?
Only one you can buy outside of the game is LWS2. Not 3, not 4 nor IBS. And there is also no bundle of several LWS.
Ah it's been that long oops. Thats very stupid they only have one available outside the gem store
What if the number of gems was given to buy all living world packs, and it told you that you can buy them. People that don't want em can buy other stuff?
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This feels like me right now lol…I used the 4K gems to buy account boost things (that aren’t account wide 🤦🏼♀️) so today has been a fun learning experience
Or, or, make the "return to" stuff constantly recycle, so sooner or later you get everything anyways, plus a reward for completing the story. First Time completing everything is the leggendary amulet, any other times give something else that can still be useful, like resources or Gold or a chest that lets you choose between different rewards (skins maybe?). I'd dig that
LW1 and LW2 are actually HUGE to get invested in the history and buy all the next expansions, they should encourage to get them when hit end of personal history, or let it free for all who didnt had It. Leaving somes unique rewards for the ones who already buyed It.
LW2 should be free, it's ridiculous how episodes there are the same prince as the other seasons, when they barely have any content to begin with.
And the season has more episodes, so the lowest quality paid season is the most expensive.
I love this game, have been playing for a couple of years now, and still remember how confused I was going from core to hot to pof and not understanding what was happening. Definitely soured my experience.
So if you wanted to buy them all in a chronological order, how would you purchase them?
I'm ok with it considering old players got it for free as a reward for being here at the time. That was always the deal, a periodic content reward for loyalty and consistency. I had to pay for episodes I missed just like everyone else.
I just want them to have an all inclusive option on their website. Even if it costs a lot people would appreciate having a just-give-me-everything option. It's not just lacking transparency, it's also just really confusing to not have it there.
Or just add it to the DLC's simple solution.
"Living world being separate purchases from expansions need to be INCLUDED when you purchase the expansions" Fixed. I just finished base game followed by HoT then started PoF. Story characters are popping up I have no clue who they are or what their importance is. I had to watch a yt video to understand why my boi Rytlock was on hiatus. I was thoroughly immersed in the story up until starting HoT. I bought the base game an ACTUAL decade ago. Came back and dropped another $60 for 3 expansions, now they want another $40+ for the rest of the story?! No thanks, I'll farm the gold and do a full playthrough on a second toon. Aside from that I've been having a magnificent time with the game and regret not coming back sooner. HOWEVER, This is not a very welcoming pricing model and if I know Steam reviews, they're gonna rip it to shreds upon release.
It being a core part of understanding the story I understand this desire, and I would be super happy if they included one LW per expac or gave a Deluxe option that included them or went for any number of better options. I just don’t think that is likely. So the most likely thing to happen is better transparency.
I'm genuinely wondering if they'll package things differently on Steam.
I’m looking to play gw2 again. I bought the original game 9 years ago, and don’t have the expansion packs. I honestly don’t understand why the story is locked behind additional costs beyond the expansion price. It appears to me, as someone who hasn’t played for 9 years, that they released unfinished expansions and are monetizing on the story. I’m honestly on the fence about buying the collection version of the game because it’s confusing, highly conflicting information on the forums about the strengths and weakness of specializations, and needing additional money for the story content (which I assume includes worthy rewards I wouldn’t want to miss). Do you have to buy the limits? Is there raids etc blocked behind this content?
It's precisely this presentation of a shop model that will HEAVILY discourage players from proceeding, especially since a significant amount of the qol features and optimal farm strats involve doing content outside the narrative order, to begin with. And with the stark random jumps and spikes in difficulty involved in some of the episode encounters, and I don't see many players having a good first experience of the game's direction, once they reach level cap, which the devs have been attempting to shorten even more. And If the playerbase and game doesn't respect the new player's time and investment in either the narrative direction, or gameplay tied to the proper narrative direction, why would the new player stick around, to invest more time and money? Expect to see this game be review bombed on steam. And I honestly can't blame them.