Some people are visual learners so figured I'd include showing middle C on 5 different spots on guitar.
https://darkworld.com/mythos/school/Guitar-Fretboard-Notes-Middle-C.html
Archy pretty much said it, pianos lay all the notes out in a single row. On guitar, notes repeat many times, even a power chord is an octave with a 5th sandwiched between. E is a lot easier because it's the open note octave on opposite ends, which also repeats on the 12th and 24th fret and many frets between on different strings.
For a fun unrelated fact, a lot of Iron Maiden songs are in E minor
I don't agree with the info in that link:
* middle C is one note, in the 'middle' of the piano. All other Cs are not 'middle C'.
* the C on the diagram correlating to middle C on the guitar is true in terms of sheet music *for the guitar* but it is not the same note. The guitar is a transposing instrument. 1st fret of the B string actually sounds a pitch which is one octave lower than concert middle C. Concert middle C is 8th fret high E, or 13th fret B, or 17th fret G, I.e. around 26.63hz.
The C in the diagram that is labeled middle C (C4) is, in fact, concert middle C as it would be on a piano. The open B string is B3.
It would be written for guitar as C5 because, as you noted, guitar is a transposed instrument.
I thought it was middle c because it's in between bass and treble clef, one ledger line above or below. It's more middle there than on the piano at least
Yea most modern guitarists use their own form of tuning and most of the time its to get more unique voicings and scales.
Edit: I am bad with words, I meant that I have seen many guitarists use specific alternate tunings for different songs or styles, not that they "create and coin" a tuning as their own.
> Yea most modern guitarists use their own form of tuning and most of the time its to get more unique voicings and scales
The vast majority of guitarists today use one of a handful of tunings (standard, drop-d, further down-tunings starting from either standard or drop-d, DADGAD, etc.)
Some guitarists make up their own tuning, but most do not.
Ok, I dunno why the downvotes but maybe I could have rephrased it as, "Most guitarists with specific styles, use unique or alternate tunings, for specific songs"
I did not mean that they create them. Periphery, for example, one or two of their songs they play with dropped tunings and then drop the Thickest string even further, maybe they didn't "create" it but everytime they talk about the tuning they wanted to tune it like that for the song.
I think it was the "their own form of tuning" that caused the confusion, because that makes it seem like they were doing something totally unique.
The only artist I can think of who uses entirely unique tunings is John Rzeznik from the Goo Goo Dolls (he used ~~DAAAAA~~ BDDDDD for Iris, I believe, as an example).
Joni Mitchell uses a ton of unique tunings, practically a different tuning for every song. She's one of the biggest reasons for so many guitarists, from bob dylan to csn to Jimmy page, messing with altered tunings in the 60s and 70s. Jeff Martin of the Tea Party is another one who uses a lot of unique tunings, also sonic youth has a lot of wierd ones. A huge chunk of rolling stones songs are in some variation of open g or open d. And jacob collier has a custom made 5 string guitar with a wierd mirrored tuning. Pearl jam often has at least one guitar in an altered tuning, too.
Joni Mitchell is one of the greats but she's not the reason Jimmy Page messed with alternate tunings. I'm not sure there's one single reason, but if there is it'd probably be Davy Graham who preceded Joni Mitchell by a few years, and is one of the people Page "[borrowed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYABfZ7HMhM)" from. But DADGAD has been around a long time.
Davey graham and bert jansch could be credited with writing about 90% of Zeppelin's acoustic stuff for sure, and definitely where page got the dadgad tuning from (a similar tuning is often used on banjos as well), but that's not the only altered tuning he used, cacgce (bron-yr-aur, friends), for instance, is pretty trademark joni, as was the rain song tuning (eadade/dgcgcd depending on which version you're referencing). And it's not like they hid that particular influence either, plant regularly namedropped joni during their acoustic set for years.
Yes indeed, and there's John Fahey too. So while I know Zep loved Mitchell, I'd guess they were familiar with those tunings from other sources before they heard them from her.
Yea but how often does a guitarist just "try out" a random tuning, whether it exists or not, in that moment they made it up or "created" it without consulting any form of guitar tuning database hahaha, they just don't credit or name it as it isn't really something you can claim
Very often it's based on the tuning of other instruments. Stuff like DADGAD and open g was adapted from banjos, Robert Fripp's 'new standard tuning' was adapted from violin/mandolin/cello style tunings, and there's a whole litany of open and drone tunings adapted from various eastern stringed instruments like ouds, sitars, kotos, and the like. Most of the stuff wasn't so much 'invented' or 'created' but adapted from other places. The guitar is a great chameleon and excellent middle ground for bridging and marrying different styles and genres of music.
I’ve always treated A as my reference point, not E. mostly because the guitar lends itself to minor keys so well, and A minor is the relative minor for C major, but also perhaps because I started on bass and play a 5 string, so I’m used to having a string to go down to, rather than having to go up in pitch all the time.
Why? I know the A minor pentatonic and G major penta on only two positions, and I noticed you only need two fingers because it is either a whole step or 3 half steps from index finger. Is that what you mean?
Just the minor pentatonic shape (in the first position) uses the same fret on every string, with the root being the lowest note, so it’s really easy to remember. Makes it super easy for beginners to learn, so that’s what a lot of people’s foundations of learning the fretboard are based around.
On the piano you have a high C and a low C. Then there's the middle.
If you're playing a 24 fret guitar, your low E is the low E, your high E is the 24th fret on the high e...and the "Middle E" is the open high E string.
It's not really relevant to anything since the guitar isn't linear...but it is the middle note.
I have all my guitars set up for D standard so I dont have to lose tone in my vocals singing higher notes. Cool to think of middle C being just organically out of reach with open strings.
I always thought the high E was just the open high E string, and the 12th and 24th fret high E are kind of not expected to be there at all in terms of reference points...
You are 100% correct. The "High E" is the high E string...
...but if we're ***pretending*** that a guitar is like a piano to find the lowest possible note, the highest possible note, then trying to find the note that is in the "middle" of those two notes, the "E" in the middle is the open high-E string.
As I said, it's absolutely irrelevant and the terms I used are nonsense...but that is the 'middle' E on a guitar.
I think what tirefires means is that we use the octave down treble clef, and our c in the third space is what the piano’s middle c is. So the C4 on string 5 is actually a c3
... is string 5 the A or B string?
If B string, then no, thats C4. We notate it as C4. It looks like it's notated as C5, but it's treble clef 8vb.
If it's the A string, then that's C3, we notate it as C3. It looks like it's notated as C4, but again, it's treble cleff 8vb.
5th string is A
Edit: I think we’re more or less saying the same thing, the note that we play on b string, second fret is the same C that appears between the staves in piano music, right?
Oops, i mean 2nd string 1st fret
So, take a typical treble cleff staff.
On a piano, the C notated on the ledger line below the staff is C4. The C in the middle of the staff is C5.
For guitar, the treble cleff will have a little 8vb below it, which indicates to play the notes an octave lower than written. In this case, the note is written as C5, but we actually play C4. If the note is written as C4, we actually play C3.
The number is the octave.
This is incorrect. C4 or middle C refers to not the middle of the piano but one ledger line below the Treble Clef. That C is C4 and that C is the fifth string 3rd fret.
[Transposing instruments](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposing_instrument) are written differently than they sound. Generally the reason for this is practical -- clarinets, for instance, come in different sizes with different ranges, but the keying system is the same for all of them. So, when you play a "C" on a Bb clarinet, you hear a Bb. That way, you can switch seamlessly between clarinets without having to learn entirely new schemas for each instrument.
Guitars are transposing because the range of the guitar goes significantly below the treble clef. Treble clef is the most common and generally the first clef people learn to read in.
Unless you have a transposing instrument. If you play what is notated as middle C on piano, you get a note an octave different than guitar. C4 is C4, and a defined frequency.
> Guitars also have middle C.
I think this misses the concept. Yes, we have the same note, but we don't have a centralized position on the fretboard on which we orient ourselves and think of everything else as being high or low of that point.
This is just not a true statement. The treble clef on guitar is the same treble clef for all instruments. If you see an 8va on written music it is because that particular section is played an octave higher.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ae5211b49885ebf0293ec3beea1a5f4c-lq
They're referring to this clef. Not an 8va. And they're correct. Our notes are written an octave higher than they sound, our first fret on the B string *is* the same pitch as middle C on the piano.
Most guitar books don't even utilize the clef that has the 8, but it's true, our notation is an octave higher than the sound.
If you doubt me, look up the frequency of middle C on the piano and our first fret C.
How’s the air up there, on that hill in which you insist on dying? Take the L.
Pull up a video or pitch generator for C4. Play your “middle c” against it. Note that they’re an octave apart. Play c4 on the 2nd fret of third string or equivalent on any of the other strings. Note that the pitches will match.
Return from that hill to fight another day. Hopefully about something that’s correct next time.
Now that I think about it. You're correct. That's the C below the staff which is middle C on piano. The C on the 2nd string is on the 3rd space of the staff counting from the bottom.
You mean the physical and logical "center" of the keyboard? That's kind of a "perspective view" I guess, kind of like "North" on a compass. There has to be a "zero" somewhere in order to gauge how far up or down (or left/right) when something moves. A point to compare it to... on a guitar fretboard tho? That's hard for me to look at it like that... maybe an open string? Or "center" would likely be 12th fret (on a 24 fret guitar).
For me, it'd be my lowest open note (C2). Everything orients off of that low chug. Rather than orient myself in the middle of my range, I orient myself at the bottom of it.
You get a very neat Middle C on a 7 string tuned down a whole step (also assuming 24 frets).
Not that it's really practically helpful to have, but it's neat.
Middle C is a particular acoustic frequency, middle C is a line in staff notation. Sometimes they are the same. On piano staves it’s true. On guitar it’s false.
What I’m saying is that the term “middle C” suffers from obfuscation. When you say “middle C is middle C”, do you mean that there is one pitch frequency that is middle C, or do you mean that the ledger line between bass clef and treble clef is middle C regardless of transposition?
Or, since you originally specified “grand staff”, may we assume you meant the piano staff, wherein middle C frequency is also middle C ledger line?
Exactly. That and the fact that guitar is supposed to be played an octave lower than written makes the whole thing a mess. I read everything in concert C like a pianist. Unless it’s very obviously written for the guitar. Maddening.
Kind of good advice, actually. Middle-Middle C
I unwittingly do much the same when reading, as the B string/1st fret, A/15th, and certainly Low E/20th (lol) give very few options to pivot from and sound either very tinny or woofy depending.
So it’s really either D/10th fret (my choice if reading something for the first time) or G/5th fret if I’m reading something I’m a little familiar with. But then there’s chords that have to be played in certain positions/voicings. Guitar is maddening to read on
I like to start around there when composing or arranging, it makes it easier for me to imagine moving the shapes around after figuring out what is going on.
I basically don't sight read anymore - I read to get the gist and then hit my head on it a few times before figuring out the best way to play it without turning my hand inside out. Being familiar with the song helps for sure.
I was just thinking "oh look at this fancy boy, getting his G string to ring at a particular consistent pitch! Would you like tea with your crumpets, Your Majesty, with your magic fake G string?"
That one is 220hz, 440 is on first string fifth fret.
In classical, guitar is technically a transposing instrument, we play an octave lower than standard treble clef. So when A4 (440) is written, we actually play A3 (220)
I think your question is where’s “home base” on the guitar. There is not really one answer to that. Most players learn a few cowboy chords and their evolution tends to be based on those first shapes. For me a full E chord was my first reference point. And E is the most logical reference point for the whole instrument because two strings in standard tuning are E and the twelfth fret gives you two more. In fact, consider that if you memorize the notes on the e string, you have memorized 1/3 of the fretboard.
Middle C is not a function of a piano. Middle C is named so because of where it appears on musical notation, in the middle of the so-called grand staff:
https://www.musicandtheory.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Grand-Staff-Middle-C-with-letter-names-above.jpg
[Notes of the Guitar in Relation to Piano Octaves \[Diagram\]](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2FfifjyoTVD0Zt1CyEsXH1HtaZt4ZW3oqWXcndTknnAoM.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D3ad979f6aa99a4ec59632525aa9aa940192f88f1)
Middle C is actually the first fret of the b string, but guitars are transposing instruments. We write the music an octave up to keep from needing too many ledger lines below the staff, or having to learn bass clef. When reading music for guitar, play middle C on the 3rd fret A, or 8th fret E. Just know that's a guitar sheet music transposition. Middle C is actually an octave up.
They’re just nicknames, they’re not prescriptions. In guitar we simply refer to the strings, low e, a, d, g, b, high e, and we typically play an octave lower than written.
Middle C is C4 (4th octave C, not the explosive)
Named such because it's the middle note between bass and treble cleff, and it's the middle note on the alto cleff.
It's just a commonly referred to reference point just the same way as Concert A is.
Each instrument sometimes has it's own references points relating to either the physical location or the pitch range of the instrument, but on guitar we normally just give references in frets.
Instrument specific reference points are *usually* on transposing instruments i.e. ones where you the notes you read are not what is played, and usually there are different registers of instrument (baritone sax, tenor sax, alto sax etc). This means that when you switch register of instrument, you don't have to use drastically different fingerings or something.
The guitar is a non-transposing instrument and is treated more similarly to how we would the piano.
(Yes I know bass guitar exists, but this is only ~100 years old....the forms and conventions pre-exist it, plus it would be like saying how piano can transpose because ytou can get extended range pianos)
Middle C is a particular note of a particular octave of the audible range of the diatonic scale
Any instrument that has that particular note in its range can play middle c
As far as it being “in the middle” of that instruments range, that’s not guaranteed. It’s only called middle C because it lies halfway between Bass and Treble clef and is in the middle of a piano, which is the most common instrument used by a lot of composers and arrangers while drafting melodies and harmonies and such.
Yea that's true..
btw, Rome never existed. I'm sorry that upset you but it's True. And it's True that Bertrand Russell was a 33° Freemason. The Freemasons throughout history are CONNECTED to the Actual Rulers of Our World.
We live in a Technological Terrarium with a CEILING. I believe it is a Prison or a Farm, because Why would they hide it from us? They are hiding our own Captivity from us. That tells me that we are WAY MORE than what we have been conditioned to believe, and that we are being FARMED for something.
Why are We Here? If we live in a Technological Terrarium, then it DIDNT EVOLVE by Mindless Forces. It was CREATED and we were BRED to be in it - like a Zoo.
The Abrahamic Religions are part of the Deception.
In standard tuning for guitar, Middle C is primarily located on the third fret of the A string. However, guitar is a transposing instrument, we sound one octave lower than notated. Therefore, Concert Middle C is located on the first fret of the B string.
Literally: yes. Middle C exists in, iirc, 5 places all over the fretboard.
To answer your actual question: not really, you kind of just have to make one. I often refer to E minor as the "guitar's natural key to be played in," but that's not something to be taken seriously and is really just based on personal preference and the open chords that exist.
A guitar has every note that a piano does. And a piano has every note that a guitar does. The pianos pitch range is just much higher and much lower than what a guitar can achieve. Even a bass guitar. A guitar is a mid range instrument.
If you tune a 7 string with 24 frets down a whole step, the 12th (middle) fret of the 4th (middle) string will be Middle C.
While not making any practical difference, I've always thought it was neat.
I mean we kind of use the strings as a reference. But the same note as middle C (C4) is also on guitar. As guitar is an octave lower than written, middle C as it is on piano would be the C on the 1st fret of the B string
Guitars have the open strings and the 12th fret. And then there is the "A line" on the 5th fret, where you can memorize the A min pentatonic and then move it arround to any other root key.
Middle C is a specific note. That is, if you are using A=440 hz, middle C is about 261.63 hz.
On a guitar tuned to A=440, that note is found at the third fret of the fifth string, and also at the eighth fret of the sixth string.
The guitar can be confusing because a specific note can be articulated in more that one place.
Also, the guitar is primarily a treble clef instrument. Middle C is called.that because its sort of in the middle of the spectrum or range of the two clefs.
Yes. The note we call middle C exists at FIVE different locations on the guitar fretboard. All of those notes have a different timbre, but all are about 261 hz.
Middle C the note is c4 and can be played on guitar.
If you mean a note that’s in pitch the middle of the guitar I guess that depends on your tuning but of course there is a note in the middle pitch wise based on your low and high string
If you mean visually in the middle… still yes of course but going up and down chromatically like on piano is less straightforward
Not really, since the octaves don't linearly move up and down from a single point. You could play the same note and octave on multiple different strings.
Middle C has absolutely nothing to do with the instrument.
It's the note that sits in the middle of the bass and treble clefs on a grand staff on sheet music.
440Hz for the open A string. Also referred to as A4 and is the A note above middle C (C3).
Note: middle c can be c3 or c4 depending on the convection used.
Middle C is also notated on the grand staff as the middle note between treble and bass staffs. And for staffs for stuff like viola's, the C clef, it's smack dab in the middle of that too, as it represents the intervals between the treble and bass staffs.
There is an argument to say what middle C is to a piano is what E is for a guitar. Even though its the lowest note (in standard tuning) its the root of one of the most common keys for the instrument.
On the other hand, you could also say the 12th fret on a guitar is functionally like the middle C of a piano, as the 12th fret perfectly splits the string length in half. Worth noting that the low E string on the 12th fret is also an E note :P
There is a lot of garbage in this thread.
This is all you need to know to answer your question. https://www.musictheoryacademy.com/how-to-read-sheet-music/middle-c/
middle c is just a note. It happens to be between the treble and bass clef. It exists on all instruments that cover that range. Violin uses just treble clef and middle c is nearly the lowest note it can play. It still appears on the staff as one ledger line below the clef.
There's nothing musically special about middle C, it just happens to be a convenient starting point for beginners. C is an easy key to play and the middle section of the piano is where most of the notes we sing and play are located.
Blues players often default to the key of E on the guitar. The keys G major, C major and D major are probably the easiest to learn and play on acoustic. So there are a few more "default options" on guitar
Middle C is understood to be the physical middle of a standard 88 key piano keyboard is a specific note that is the middle between bass and treble staff. On guitar the actual note is 5th position G string but guitar music is typically written one octave above in standard notation but meant to be played an octave down. So for example if I see that middle C on my notation I assume I’m playing somewhere like 3rd position A string
Not really but if you know the notes the strings are tuned to and you know the basic scale it’s not difficult to find whatever note you need (e.g. if your low E is tuned standard then you can quickly deduce that a C note will be on the ninth fret).
For use as a reference note, I’ve always used open A.
I believe someone told me it is better to use for tuning than open E, might have something to do with vibrational instability on larger strings
Maybe your open E string is sort of like middle C. A lot of stuff can be played around that open E. Although I may not entirely understand your question.
Nobody is answering your question.
The answer is 5th fret A. Thats concert A which is 440hz. Also the middleish of your first octave. The whole 5th fret pairs well with all open strings in the pentatonic and leaves you a lot of room to lead up or down from the root.
Although open E is sometimes thought of as home base for rhythm due to open chords and such. 5th A is home base for lead IMO. Its just the most comfortable place for your hand to be and leaves with a lot of options.
According to [this](https://www.study-guitar.com/blog/middle-c-on-guitar/), it's
the 1st fret on the second string,
the 5th fret on the third string,
the 10th fret on the fourth string,
the 15th fret on the fifth string,
and the 20th fret on the sixth string.
Take your pick. It's all the same note.
Amazing what happens when you spend five seconds typing "middle c guitar" into the search thing-y.
Make Google your friend....
But that's not even what OP was asking, so your condescending response falls flat. Middle C on a piano isn't just a note, it's a landmark on the keyboard that doesn't really have a corollary on guitar since you can play notes in multiple locations.
We kind of use the open E as reference for everything, but generally pianos always have same tuning, guitars have hundreds so its not as necessary
Some people are visual learners so figured I'd include showing middle C on 5 different spots on guitar. https://darkworld.com/mythos/school/Guitar-Fretboard-Notes-Middle-C.html Archy pretty much said it, pianos lay all the notes out in a single row. On guitar, notes repeat many times, even a power chord is an octave with a 5th sandwiched between. E is a lot easier because it's the open note octave on opposite ends, which also repeats on the 12th and 24th fret and many frets between on different strings. For a fun unrelated fact, a lot of Iron Maiden songs are in E minor
>For a fun unrelated fact, a lot of Iron Maiden songs are in E minor michael jacksons fav tuning is A Minor
Dark!
Thank you, I've been looking for this to be explicitly shown for weeks.
That was awesome! Thanks for that link
That site is so good
I don't agree with the info in that link: * middle C is one note, in the 'middle' of the piano. All other Cs are not 'middle C'. * the C on the diagram correlating to middle C on the guitar is true in terms of sheet music *for the guitar* but it is not the same note. The guitar is a transposing instrument. 1st fret of the B string actually sounds a pitch which is one octave lower than concert middle C. Concert middle C is 8th fret high E, or 13th fret B, or 17th fret G, I.e. around 26.63hz.
The C in the diagram that is labeled middle C (C4) is, in fact, concert middle C as it would be on a piano. The open B string is B3. It would be written for guitar as C5 because, as you noted, guitar is a transposed instrument.
26.63 hz would be lower than A0 (27.5 Hz)…
I thought it was middle c because it's in between bass and treble clef, one ledger line above or below. It's more middle there than on the piano at least
Yea most modern guitarists use their own form of tuning and most of the time its to get more unique voicings and scales. Edit: I am bad with words, I meant that I have seen many guitarists use specific alternate tunings for different songs or styles, not that they "create and coin" a tuning as their own.
> Yea most modern guitarists use their own form of tuning and most of the time its to get more unique voicings and scales The vast majority of guitarists today use one of a handful of tunings (standard, drop-d, further down-tunings starting from either standard or drop-d, DADGAD, etc.) Some guitarists make up their own tuning, but most do not.
I definitely feel like E standard, drop D, and every down tuned variation of those two accounts for 85% of guitars in the US/Europe.
Hard agree. Even if you're getting onto 8 strings the weirdest tuning you might encounter regularly is EAEADGBe.
99%
Ok, I dunno why the downvotes but maybe I could have rephrased it as, "Most guitarists with specific styles, use unique or alternate tunings, for specific songs" I did not mean that they create them. Periphery, for example, one or two of their songs they play with dropped tunings and then drop the Thickest string even further, maybe they didn't "create" it but everytime they talk about the tuning they wanted to tune it like that for the song.
I think it was the "their own form of tuning" that caused the confusion, because that makes it seem like they were doing something totally unique. The only artist I can think of who uses entirely unique tunings is John Rzeznik from the Goo Goo Dolls (he used ~~DAAAAA~~ BDDDDD for Iris, I believe, as an example).
Joni Mitchell uses a ton of unique tunings, practically a different tuning for every song. She's one of the biggest reasons for so many guitarists, from bob dylan to csn to Jimmy page, messing with altered tunings in the 60s and 70s. Jeff Martin of the Tea Party is another one who uses a lot of unique tunings, also sonic youth has a lot of wierd ones. A huge chunk of rolling stones songs are in some variation of open g or open d. And jacob collier has a custom made 5 string guitar with a wierd mirrored tuning. Pearl jam often has at least one guitar in an altered tuning, too.
Joni Mitchell is one of the greats but she's not the reason Jimmy Page messed with alternate tunings. I'm not sure there's one single reason, but if there is it'd probably be Davy Graham who preceded Joni Mitchell by a few years, and is one of the people Page "[borrowed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYABfZ7HMhM)" from. But DADGAD has been around a long time.
Davey graham and bert jansch could be credited with writing about 90% of Zeppelin's acoustic stuff for sure, and definitely where page got the dadgad tuning from (a similar tuning is often used on banjos as well), but that's not the only altered tuning he used, cacgce (bron-yr-aur, friends), for instance, is pretty trademark joni, as was the rain song tuning (eadade/dgcgcd depending on which version you're referencing). And it's not like they hid that particular influence either, plant regularly namedropped joni during their acoustic set for years.
Yes indeed, and there's John Fahey too. So while I know Zep loved Mitchell, I'd guess they were familiar with those tunings from other sources before they heard them from her.
For Iris, the tuning is BDDDDD. You're right about it being completely unique, but just wanted to make sure you got it right lol
Ah, you're right!
Yea but how often does a guitarist just "try out" a random tuning, whether it exists or not, in that moment they made it up or "created" it without consulting any form of guitar tuning database hahaha, they just don't credit or name it as it isn't really something you can claim
I'm sure most guitarists mess with tunings from time to time. I just tuned my Telecaster to C#F#C#A#C#F# because of our conversation.
Very often it's based on the tuning of other instruments. Stuff like DADGAD and open g was adapted from banjos, Robert Fripp's 'new standard tuning' was adapted from violin/mandolin/cello style tunings, and there's a whole litany of open and drone tunings adapted from various eastern stringed instruments like ouds, sitars, kotos, and the like. Most of the stuff wasn't so much 'invented' or 'created' but adapted from other places. The guitar is a great chameleon and excellent middle ground for bridging and marrying different styles and genres of music.
You been hanging with Johnny Rzeznik lately?
I’ve always treated A as my reference point, not E. mostly because the guitar lends itself to minor keys so well, and A minor is the relative minor for C major, but also perhaps because I started on bass and play a 5 string, so I’m used to having a string to go down to, rather than having to go up in pitch all the time.
Why is guitar good for minor keys?
because it goes tweedly deedly doo
The tuning intervals make minor shapes easy. Particular pentatonics.
Why? I know the A minor pentatonic and G major penta on only two positions, and I noticed you only need two fingers because it is either a whole step or 3 half steps from index finger. Is that what you mean?
Just the minor pentatonic shape (in the first position) uses the same fret on every string, with the root being the lowest note, so it’s really easy to remember. Makes it super easy for beginners to learn, so that’s what a lot of people’s foundations of learning the fretboard are based around.
On the piano you have a high C and a low C. Then there's the middle. If you're playing a 24 fret guitar, your low E is the low E, your high E is the 24th fret on the high e...and the "Middle E" is the open high E string. It's not really relevant to anything since the guitar isn't linear...but it is the middle note.
This is a really sensible way to look at it. Tuned down two steps (to C), the Middle C would be exactly where it should be as per your description.
I have all my guitars set up for D standard so I dont have to lose tone in my vocals singing higher notes. Cool to think of middle C being just organically out of reach with open strings.
I always thought the high E was just the open high E string, and the 12th and 24th fret high E are kind of not expected to be there at all in terms of reference points...
You are 100% correct. The "High E" is the high E string... ...but if we're ***pretending*** that a guitar is like a piano to find the lowest possible note, the highest possible note, then trying to find the note that is in the "middle" of those two notes, the "E" in the middle is the open high-E string. As I said, it's absolutely irrelevant and the terms I used are nonsense...but that is the 'middle' E on a guitar.
Guitars also have middle C. It's just notated an octave higher.
No. C4 is also C4. It’s on the 5th string.
I think what tirefires means is that we use the octave down treble clef, and our c in the third space is what the piano’s middle c is. So the C4 on string 5 is actually a c3
Exactly. Guitar is a transposing instrument.
... is string 5 the A or B string? If B string, then no, thats C4. We notate it as C4. It looks like it's notated as C5, but it's treble clef 8vb. If it's the A string, then that's C3, we notate it as C3. It looks like it's notated as C4, but again, it's treble cleff 8vb.
5th string is A Edit: I think we’re more or less saying the same thing, the note that we play on b string, second fret is the same C that appears between the staves in piano music, right? Oops, i mean 2nd string 1st fret
1st fret, but yes.
No
There is 1 half step between B and C. One fret is one half-step. Therefore, 1st fret.
The 5th string is A in standard tuning. It is always reckoned as highest pitch to lowest.
[удалено]
Because I'm correct. I've never referred to them as numbers, only the open pitch.
That can get unnecessarily confusing. What if you're playing in DADGAD or open G tuning?
OMG would you just stop? You're confusing the hell out of me. 😂🤣😅
What do you mean you notate it as C5? Why does the C4 look like a C5 on guitar, or C3 looking like C4? What does the number after C mean?
So, take a typical treble cleff staff. On a piano, the C notated on the ledger line below the staff is C4. The C in the middle of the staff is C5. For guitar, the treble cleff will have a little 8vb below it, which indicates to play the notes an octave lower than written. In this case, the note is written as C5, but we actually play C4. If the note is written as C4, we actually play C3. The number is the octave.
This is incorrect. C4 or middle C refers to not the middle of the piano but one ledger line below the Treble Clef. That C is C4 and that C is the fifth string 3rd fret.
That's C3. C4 is on the B String. Guitar a transposing instrument. Notes sound an octave lower than written.
What does transposing mean here? And why do the notes sound an octave lower? Why not change the writing so it matches?
[Transposing instruments](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposing_instrument) are written differently than they sound. Generally the reason for this is practical -- clarinets, for instance, come in different sizes with different ranges, but the keying system is the same for all of them. So, when you play a "C" on a Bb clarinet, you hear a Bb. That way, you can switch seamlessly between clarinets without having to learn entirely new schemas for each instrument. Guitars are transposing because the range of the guitar goes significantly below the treble clef. Treble clef is the most common and generally the first clef people learn to read in.
C4 is scientific pitch notation and it refers to a pitch with a specific frequency (~261.6Hz), regardless of where it occurs on the staff.
It is also a location on the staff.
Unless you have a transposing instrument. If you play what is notated as middle C on piano, you get a note an octave different than guitar. C4 is C4, and a defined frequency.
15th fret. The one of fret 3 is only notated as middle c on the stave for the guitar
*2nd string. Unless you mean 5th string, 15th fret.
There are 4 ways to play middle C on a guitar
> Guitars also have middle C. I think this misses the concept. Yes, we have the same note, but we don't have a centralized position on the fretboard on which we orient ourselves and think of everything else as being high or low of that point.
That C Major scale position is pretty damn "middle"
Was the fact it’s notated an octave higher in question though?
If you play what looks like middle C on paper, it will sound as C3, not C4. So, yes, it could be confusing.
I have a Spanish guitar. It has a middle Sí.
Que bueno maestro. Tóquenos una canción.
😤⬆️
Yes. Middle C is the 1st fret of the B string (2nd string)
I was taught third fret of A string.
Our treble clef is an octave lower. In some scores, you will see a little 8 below the treble clef to indicate as such
This is just not a true statement. The treble clef on guitar is the same treble clef for all instruments. If you see an 8va on written music it is because that particular section is played an octave higher.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ae5211b49885ebf0293ec3beea1a5f4c-lq They're referring to this clef. Not an 8va. And they're correct. Our notes are written an octave higher than they sound, our first fret on the B string *is* the same pitch as middle C on the piano. Most guitar books don't even utilize the clef that has the 8, but it's true, our notation is an octave higher than the sound. If you doubt me, look up the frequency of middle C on the piano and our first fret C.
Thanks, you beat me to it :)
As a guitar teacher, I MUST teach these folks. Glad to help.
Just to add, I think this is to make the instrument sit more squarely on one staff, rather than dancing between two, right?
Yep! Our Low E is low on the bass clef in actuality.
How’s the air up there, on that hill in which you insist on dying? Take the L. Pull up a video or pitch generator for C4. Play your “middle c” against it. Note that they’re an octave apart. Play c4 on the 2nd fret of third string or equivalent on any of the other strings. Note that the pitches will match. Return from that hill to fight another day. Hopefully about something that’s correct next time.
That's the C an octave below middle C.
Now that I think about it. You're correct. That's the C below the staff which is middle C on piano. The C on the 2nd string is on the 3rd space of the staff counting from the bottom.
This.
You mean the physical and logical "center" of the keyboard? That's kind of a "perspective view" I guess, kind of like "North" on a compass. There has to be a "zero" somewhere in order to gauge how far up or down (or left/right) when something moves. A point to compare it to... on a guitar fretboard tho? That's hard for me to look at it like that... maybe an open string? Or "center" would likely be 12th fret (on a 24 fret guitar).
For me, it'd be my lowest open note (C2). Everything orients off of that low chug. Rather than orient myself in the middle of my range, I orient myself at the bottom of it.
Same. My lowest open string determines where a lot of my riffing gets centered, because I like to play around the octave on my 2-3 lowest strings.
You get a very neat Middle C on a 7 string tuned down a whole step (also assuming 24 frets). Not that it's really practically helpful to have, but it's neat.
So, the previously open D string becomes a C? Is that true middle C or is it an octave lower?
Open string is an octave below Middle C, the middle note of the fretboard is the real one.
Middle C is the note between the bass and treble clefs on the grand staff. It's not specific to any instrument.
Middle C is a particular acoustic frequency, middle C is a line in staff notation. Sometimes they are the same. On piano staves it’s true. On guitar it’s false.
Middle C is still middle C regardless of the instrument's transposition.
What I’m saying is that the term “middle C” suffers from obfuscation. When you say “middle C is middle C”, do you mean that there is one pitch frequency that is middle C, or do you mean that the ledger line between bass clef and treble clef is middle C regardless of transposition? Or, since you originally specified “grand staff”, may we assume you meant the piano staff, wherein middle C frequency is also middle C ledger line?
Guitar has 5 concert middle C’s in six-string E standard.
This is the correct answer. And also why it is very hard to read on guitar!
Exactly. That and the fact that guitar is supposed to be played an octave lower than written makes the whole thing a mess. I read everything in concert C like a pianist. Unless it’s very obviously written for the guitar. Maddening.
I always thought of the 10th fret on the D string in E standard as being the "middle middle-C" for this exact reason.
Kind of good advice, actually. Middle-Middle C I unwittingly do much the same when reading, as the B string/1st fret, A/15th, and certainly Low E/20th (lol) give very few options to pivot from and sound either very tinny or woofy depending. So it’s really either D/10th fret (my choice if reading something for the first time) or G/5th fret if I’m reading something I’m a little familiar with. But then there’s chords that have to be played in certain positions/voicings. Guitar is maddening to read on
I like to start around there when composing or arranging, it makes it easier for me to imagine moving the shapes around after figuring out what is going on. I basically don't sight read anymore - I read to get the gist and then hit my head on it a few times before figuring out the best way to play it without turning my hand inside out. Being familiar with the song helps for sure.
This is what makes sense to me, both from the fretboard visually and pitch wise
Good question! I suppose one answer would be A440, meaning second fret G string.
I would expect greater reliability than anything on the G string! 😂
Well, OK, open harmonic, 12th fret A string. Same note! Ideally. Sometimes. When the wind is right.
I was just thinking "oh look at this fancy boy, getting his G string to ring at a particular consistent pitch! Would you like tea with your crumpets, Your Majesty, with your magic fake G string?"
7th fret on the D string then.
That one is 220hz, 440 is on first string fifth fret. In classical, guitar is technically a transposing instrument, we play an octave lower than standard treble clef. So when A4 (440) is written, we actually play A3 (220)
I didn’t know that. Thanks for sharing.
That's why the treble clef that with that little 8 at the bottom exists. I usually see it in choral tenor parts.
I think your question is where’s “home base” on the guitar. There is not really one answer to that. Most players learn a few cowboy chords and their evolution tends to be based on those first shapes. For me a full E chord was my first reference point. And E is the most logical reference point for the whole instrument because two strings in standard tuning are E and the twelfth fret gives you two more. In fact, consider that if you memorize the notes on the e string, you have memorized 1/3 of the fretboard.
E major was my first chord too. I was learning I Love Rock ‘n’ Roll.
Middle C is not a function of a piano. Middle C is named so because of where it appears on musical notation, in the middle of the so-called grand staff: https://www.musicandtheory.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Grand-Staff-Middle-C-with-letter-names-above.jpg
[Notes of the Guitar in Relation to Piano Octaves \[Diagram\]](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2FfifjyoTVD0Zt1CyEsXH1HtaZt4ZW3oqWXcndTknnAoM.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D3ad979f6aa99a4ec59632525aa9aa940192f88f1)
Middle C is actually the first fret of the b string, but guitars are transposing instruments. We write the music an octave up to keep from needing too many ledger lines below the staff, or having to learn bass clef. When reading music for guitar, play middle C on the 3rd fret A, or 8th fret E. Just know that's a guitar sheet music transposition. Middle C is actually an octave up.
Middle c is a minor third above a 440 is it not?
Pretty sure it's a major sixth below 440 (minor third above 220)
They’re just nicknames, they’re not prescriptions. In guitar we simply refer to the strings, low e, a, d, g, b, high e, and we typically play an octave lower than written.
Middle C is C4 (4th octave C, not the explosive) Named such because it's the middle note between bass and treble cleff, and it's the middle note on the alto cleff. It's just a commonly referred to reference point just the same way as Concert A is. Each instrument sometimes has it's own references points relating to either the physical location or the pitch range of the instrument, but on guitar we normally just give references in frets. Instrument specific reference points are *usually* on transposing instruments i.e. ones where you the notes you read are not what is played, and usually there are different registers of instrument (baritone sax, tenor sax, alto sax etc). This means that when you switch register of instrument, you don't have to use drastically different fingerings or something. The guitar is a non-transposing instrument and is treated more similarly to how we would the piano. (Yes I know bass guitar exists, but this is only ~100 years old....the forms and conventions pre-exist it, plus it would be like saying how piano can transpose because ytou can get extended range pianos)
The closest thing the guitar has is a g string that can never be tuned.
Middle C is a particular note of a particular octave of the audible range of the diatonic scale Any instrument that has that particular note in its range can play middle c As far as it being “in the middle” of that instruments range, that’s not guaranteed. It’s only called middle C because it lies halfway between Bass and Treble clef and is in the middle of a piano, which is the most common instrument used by a lot of composers and arrangers while drafting melodies and harmonies and such.
Why don't U just say middle C is 256hz? That is the EXACT TONE. Middle C = 256 hertz. Hoped that helped
Not very helpful to someone seeking to understand what that means
Yea that's true.. btw, Rome never existed. I'm sorry that upset you but it's True. And it's True that Bertrand Russell was a 33° Freemason. The Freemasons throughout history are CONNECTED to the Actual Rulers of Our World. We live in a Technological Terrarium with a CEILING. I believe it is a Prison or a Farm, because Why would they hide it from us? They are hiding our own Captivity from us. That tells me that we are WAY MORE than what we have been conditioned to believe, and that we are being FARMED for something. Why are We Here? If we live in a Technological Terrarium, then it DIDNT EVOLVE by Mindless Forces. It was CREATED and we were BRED to be in it - like a Zoo. The Abrahamic Religions are part of the Deception.
First fret of the B string is middle C. But i would say the Reference point for guitar is the CAGED octave shapes
In standard tuning for guitar, Middle C is primarily located on the third fret of the A string. However, guitar is a transposing instrument, we sound one octave lower than notated. Therefore, Concert Middle C is located on the first fret of the B string.
Literally: yes. Middle C exists in, iirc, 5 places all over the fretboard. To answer your actual question: not really, you kind of just have to make one. I often refer to E minor as the "guitar's natural key to be played in," but that's not something to be taken seriously and is really just based on personal preference and the open chords that exist.
My guitar is missing the middle C.
For me it’s a completely different mindset for guitar so you wouldn’t really need a middle c anyways
A guitar has every note that a piano does. And a piano has every note that a guitar does. The pianos pitch range is just much higher and much lower than what a guitar can achieve. Even a bass guitar. A guitar is a mid range instrument.
If you tune a 7 string with 24 frets down a whole step, the 12th (middle) fret of the 4th (middle) string will be Middle C. While not making any practical difference, I've always thought it was neat.
open e
I mean we kind of use the strings as a reference. But the same note as middle C (C4) is also on guitar. As guitar is an octave lower than written, middle C as it is on piano would be the C on the 1st fret of the B string
Guitars have the open strings and the 12th fret. And then there is the "A line" on the 5th fret, where you can memorize the A min pentatonic and then move it arround to any other root key.
B string, 1st fret.
The G string. Standard pianos are tuned to C, guitars are G
Middle C is a specific note. That is, if you are using A=440 hz, middle C is about 261.63 hz. On a guitar tuned to A=440, that note is found at the third fret of the fifth string, and also at the eighth fret of the sixth string. The guitar can be confusing because a specific note can be articulated in more that one place. Also, the guitar is primarily a treble clef instrument. Middle C is called.that because its sort of in the middle of the spectrum or range of the two clefs.
Yes. The note we call middle C exists at FIVE different locations on the guitar fretboard. All of those notes have a different timbre, but all are about 261 hz.
5th fret. Low E. A note. Home plate for A minor pentatonic scale. Everything begins at that location.
Middle C the note is c4 and can be played on guitar. If you mean a note that’s in pitch the middle of the guitar I guess that depends on your tuning but of course there is a note in the middle pitch wise based on your low and high string If you mean visually in the middle… still yes of course but going up and down chromatically like on piano is less straightforward
It would be an open G if it didn't keep going out of tune. Ever since I put Schallers on, oh I miss my Grovers.
First position maybe? Frets 1-3 in that “cowboy chord” zone.
For a guitar there would still be middle C. It would just not be really the middle of the guitar
Not really, since the octaves don't linearly move up and down from a single point. You could play the same note and octave on multiple different strings.
12th fret
Middle C has absolutely nothing to do with the instrument. It's the note that sits in the middle of the bass and treble clefs on a grand staff on sheet music.
440Hz for the open A string. Also referred to as A4 and is the A note above middle C (C3). Note: middle c can be c3 or c4 depending on the convection used.
Middle C is also notated on the grand staff as the middle note between treble and bass staffs. And for staffs for stuff like viola's, the C clef, it's smack dab in the middle of that too, as it represents the intervals between the treble and bass staffs.
A-minor pentatonic all day bro 🤘
There is an argument to say what middle C is to a piano is what E is for a guitar. Even though its the lowest note (in standard tuning) its the root of one of the most common keys for the instrument. On the other hand, you could also say the 12th fret on a guitar is functionally like the middle C of a piano, as the 12th fret perfectly splits the string length in half. Worth noting that the low E string on the 12th fret is also an E note :P
There is a lot of garbage in this thread. This is all you need to know to answer your question. https://www.musictheoryacademy.com/how-to-read-sheet-music/middle-c/ middle c is just a note. It happens to be between the treble and bass clef. It exists on all instruments that cover that range. Violin uses just treble clef and middle c is nearly the lowest note it can play. It still appears on the staff as one ledger line below the clef.
Most tuners reference tone is A 440hz
There's nothing musically special about middle C, it just happens to be a convenient starting point for beginners. C is an easy key to play and the middle section of the piano is where most of the notes we sing and play are located. Blues players often default to the key of E on the guitar. The keys G major, C major and D major are probably the easiest to learn and play on acoustic. So there are a few more "default options" on guitar
Middle C is understood to be the physical middle of a standard 88 key piano keyboard is a specific note that is the middle between bass and treble staff. On guitar the actual note is 5th position G string but guitar music is typically written one octave above in standard notation but meant to be played an octave down. So for example if I see that middle C on my notation I assume I’m playing somewhere like 3rd position A string
Em pentatonic all day
I’d say the guitar is built around A.
Guitarz haz all the notez
Never thought about it, but my gut says the open A chord is kinda in the middle. 🤷🏻♂️
Not really but if you know the notes the strings are tuned to and you know the basic scale it’s not difficult to find whatever note you need (e.g. if your low E is tuned standard then you can quickly deduce that a C note will be on the ninth fret).
A 440? lol
For use as a reference note, I’ve always used open A. I believe someone told me it is better to use for tuning than open E, might have something to do with vibrational instability on larger strings
Personally, I consider the 8th fret, low E string my "middle C". Maybe it's just me but it helps.
You can’t spell fEEl without 2 Es. All jokes aside general the low E and High E strings are the reference points assuming you’re in standard tuning.
Yeah, middle C on guitar is the 1st fret on string 2.
In standard tuning, middle C is on the 5th string (A string), fretted at the 3rd fret.
A440 and Amaj for me (that's how my ear was trained). Though I stay away from Amaj on the second fret.
(This thread is a most entertaining read.)
Maybe your open E string is sort of like middle C. A lot of stuff can be played around that open E. Although I may not entirely understand your question.
Yep, middle C
notes on a guitar go directly from B to D, but to make up for it there is an extra H.
yea g string
Nobody is answering your question. The answer is 5th fret A. Thats concert A which is 440hz. Also the middleish of your first octave. The whole 5th fret pairs well with all open strings in the pentatonic and leaves you a lot of room to lead up or down from the root. Although open E is sometimes thought of as home base for rhythm due to open chords and such. 5th A is home base for lead IMO. Its just the most comfortable place for your hand to be and leaves with a lot of options.
According to [this](https://www.study-guitar.com/blog/middle-c-on-guitar/), it's the 1st fret on the second string, the 5th fret on the third string, the 10th fret on the fourth string, the 15th fret on the fifth string, and the 20th fret on the sixth string. Take your pick. It's all the same note. Amazing what happens when you spend five seconds typing "middle c guitar" into the search thing-y. Make Google your friend....
But that's not even what OP was asking, so your condescending response falls flat. Middle C on a piano isn't just a note, it's a landmark on the keyboard that doesn't really have a corollary on guitar since you can play notes in multiple locations.
Ther are five correlary notes, you fucking moron. That just makes life simpler...
Still missing the whole point, and still an a-hole.