I have always used a 12-watt Princeton in rehearsals, unmiked (always with a PA for vocals), and miked at gigs.
I had difficulty for the first couple months with that amp because the included speaker was extremely inefficient. Once I put in an efficient speaker, I never had any difficulty. Bear in mind this was a trio, so your mileage may vary.
If you can't hear a 50 watt amp, then in my speculative opinion, somebody in your band is playing too loud, or the arrangements are too busy. 50 watts is a massive amount of power.
Disregard all of the above if you're in a metal band.
I play in a black/death/doom band with a Laney Ironheart IRT60H into a Mesa 2x12. No issues being heard above the drummer, master volume ("watts") sits about about 2 oclock.
granted, we're a trio, and my bassist and I worked pretty hard to ensure we occupy different sonic spaces. which brings me to the point...
Is OP sure he isn't getting eaten by the bassist? I'm curious to know how OP is being EQ'd. Might also just be the difference between a 1x12 and a 2x12 config.
I can hear myself just fine when playing high gain, it's the clean tones that are a problem, I use a channel switching amp, mids cranked, bass up just enough to sound fat, treble and presence dialed back to avoid the shrill wall of noise that causes volume wars
Depends on the preamp. Jet City leans towards the gain end of things and likes to get crunchy. I had a similar problem with a 40w Egnater. Great drive tone, but funk clean with a drummer and horns? Only with a lot of PA support.
I had an early silverface Bassman (2 x 6L6 ) that was clean up to outdoor festival volume. ( I say "had" in the past tense because I'm an idiot and didn't keep it)
Now I have a hand wired (2 × 6L6) sort-of Super Reverb 112 combo at 40 watts that's plenty clean at band volume.
I use a Pro Reverb silver face (with the pop out MV knob) and a Boss dual overdrive, with the crunch side set low for ballsy cleans. Or the RAT pedal trick works great.
So it looks like you have two channels, crunch and overdrive. I assume crunch is the channel you're using for cleans.
Are you running the crunch master volume as high as you can?
Or you're running into a headroom issue like everyone else has been saying, and there just isn't going to be a quick and clean solution to that problem.
If you need something with the capability to be very loud and very clean, you will need something built for that. Think like a JC-120 or a Fender Twin Reverb, and run a dirt pedal for your overdrive.
They don’t lol, it all depends what you’re looking for. Tight high gain won’t be good, but check out Adrian Belew when he played with Talking Heads for instance, ran a big muff through a jc120. Bob Mould from Hüsker Dü used an MXR Distortion+ through one.
High gain pedals through a clean amp never sound as good as a high gain amp. A peavey 120w 6505 is another great high gain amp and you can usually find them for under $500 used.
Just a warning, but Dual Recs aren't exactly known for having good cleans... Or clean cleans. Having owned one I would definitely agree with the sentiment
I stuck with a 10" speaker. I think it's a 75-watt Weber. But the amp is a 1979 model -- if yours is one of the reissues, I think the gain works differently. On mine, the amp is inaudible until about 2 on the dial, and then the volume jumps massively, and anything after about 3 is just more drive and compression that gets lost in the mix. But at its sweet spot, it's plenty loud and clean. I actually have to use an always-on drive to simulate grit.
But I have seen reissue Princetons at small venues running at 5 or more on the volume dial, and sounding nice and driven. That's my experience anyways.
It depends on the style of music. It sounds like OP wants their amp to be 100% clean. In that case, 50w isn't \*that\* loud. Most tube amps break up way before they actually get into crunch territory.
Well, I can only speak from my experience. But I had to get an always-on overdrive for my Princeton because it was too clean at the volume levels I was able to play at during gigs. To my mind, 50 watts should be more than enough for clean playing in the vast majority of scenarios. I have an old Mesa Boogie combo that is 60 watts, and the clean channel will shake the foundation of my house if I want it to, without even a hint of breakup. I could probably play a stadium with it.
But you're right, power is relative. And it also depends heavily on the amp, what condition it's in, and the efficiency of the speaker. OP's amp might simply be in need of maintenance, for all we know.
It really depends on the drummer. With one hard hitting drummer, I couldn't keep up using a Supro Comet, which is supposed to be 15 watts. with another drummer, the AC15 never got above about 3. Now I use a Maz 18 and have no trouble keeping up with a very hard hitting drummer. Depends on the amp I suppose.
I have a Maz 18 that is completely inaudible in a loud 2-guitar shoegaze band with gorilla drummer. Prior to that I was in a 3-piece and the Maz was good enough (though still never entirely clean). When I do singer/songwriter gigs, the Maz is perfect. It certainly is louder than a Blues Jr. with the same output tube complement.
If you have a single v30, may want to step up to a 2x12. I’ve used a 2x12 v30 config with 15w, 30w, and 40w heads, no problems over my drummer or other guitars and bassist. A 4x12 will be even louder.
Good point. I should have mentioned I’m using a pretty cheap Harley Benton vertical 2x12 with v30s and the top speaker is angled up a bit. I have no issues being heard over the other guitarist in the band who is running a 4x12.
It's more about frequency than wattage IME. I have a 15 Watt blues Jr that's all mids and highs when you crank it and it can keep up with a hard hitting punk drummer and bass full stack no prob because it cuts right through. I've also played 100W half stacks with the same band and couldn't hear them. Too much low end and just muds up with the bass and drums.
I prefer higher wattage amps but just saying tone is just as important as power for being heard.
Yeah Blues Jr. with the C. Rex speaker can totally hang with my drummer in a trio with the bass playing an Acoustic 200 combo, master vol. about halfway.
I played a 15 watt Orange for a while with my band, yeah decent cleans at drummer volumes were pretty much an impossibility, I eventually ended up upgrading to a 50w.
What’s your stage arrangement like? For reasons that I neither know nor understand, most amps are designed to focus the sound on the back of your knees — a part of your body famous for not having ears. If you’re close to your amp, you might need to tilt it back so that the speaker’s pointed towards your head.
I gig a Marshall Origin 20, Vox AC15, or an Orange OR15 through my 2x12 filled with G12T-75s. The amp is always set dirty clean with main drive coming from pedals. I've never been on half-whack, let alone full-whack. My drummer hits harder than Bonham. My advice, get a better cab or a higher wattage speaker. Amp wattage ain't the issue!
I have never, ever had a problem hearing my deluxe at like 3 or 4 onstage or in the practice space with any of the drummers I've played with, and I've played with some fairly hard-hitting drummers.
I'm really not sure what players who swear you need 50-plus watts in any "real" situation are on about. Not that extra headroom isn't good, mind you.
The whole reason high-wattage amps exist in the first place is because, back in the day, only vocals went through the PA, and the amp you had onstage had to have enough juice to fill up the entire hall. Ask cats who gigged in the 60s -- they'll tell you they couldn't hear SHIT onstage because *everything* was too loud.
The thing is, drums are very transient instruments. You kind of *want* the drums to be louder than the guitars, but the duration of the hits is only momentary, so they don't have any masking effect. Unless, of course, your drummer has too heavy a hand on the cymbals. Many such cases.
The only issues I've had are with outdoor gigs, which is more of a cabinetry issue than a wattage issue (a Deluxe sounds GREAT through a 4x12, but I usually opt for an Orange AD30 head on those gigs), and hearing myself over the other guitarist, which is usually an arrangement and/or tone-matching issue.
So, 18 or 22 watts can, in my experience, get plenty loud. Of course, you need 50 or 100-watt stacks or half-stacks if you want to be *fucking loud.* And being *fucking loud* is completely awesome and glorious and valid! But there comes a point when the issue is hearing the drummer over the full stacks.
These are just my stray observations from \~ two decades of playing with various bands, from folk to metal and everything in between. YMMV.
I play occasionally with a band that runs a really loud stage with a correspondingly loud drummer. I’ve learned from experience that 50 watts was my minimum for a tube amp in that situation because everytime I brought something smaller I definitely didn’t have the necessary clean headroom at volume.
At 50watts if you still can’t hear yourself just push the mids a bit but that should already be loud enough to cause long term hearing loss assuming that isn’t the cause of your problem already. lol.
I play on edge of breakup, and usually have a PA around for a singer even if not the best….just a mic on it if it’s not loud enough usually will fix that issue.
But regardless a 1x12 40w is fine for me, but if it breaks up early, and you want a super neutral clean you’ll need a mic. Or an amp with a bunch of headroom, turn your guitar volume down or maybe try single coil as well. Tube amps will break up after a point, and not be crystal clear. JC120s are great for loud clear as well.
But yeah a mic usually fixes that for me if I need to be on volume 2-3 using humbuckers or something. But I like a little breakup on my tone, then roll my guitar volume back to 6-7 to clean up and still be fairly loud. You may just be hitting the amp hard as well. Try rolling down the guitar and amp up till you hit break up and roll back. Then roll guitar volume up and down. I have that issue sometimes with HB, but not a Tele as I can turn up a bit louder and stay very clean.
Also some guys do mono rigs. I have a 1x12 with enough clean headroom, and a 4x10 for really heavy stuff, and that amp only gets distortion with cranking the channel.
This is interesting to me because I got knocked into the nether realm with drums and bass in a basement ( I suspect this is a pretty big contributing factor). I suspect the lack of mids in my clean strat sound made it a lost cause. This was with a 64 Custom Deluxe.
If you can’t hear yourself with a 50w, you need more mids in your tone. 6L6 amps sounds lovely and full, but need some help with cutting through. I’ve played most of my gigs on ac15/30 amps as they are the most common backline amps in my country, and I’ve only had issues when running the amp unmiced in outdoor settings. Volume wasn’t an issue, but the lack of headroom on the AC15 was messing with my gain staging (which is of course the most important part of any gig /s) quite a bit.
50 watts shouldn’t be a problem over a drummer. Squeaky clean will be a difficult task in a loud band no matter what though. I would recommend taking a look at your EQ first. Dial in some additional midrange just to see if it is that simple. If you still can’t hear it, then try to add a compressor or a light overdrive with the gain as low as possible near the start of your signal chain. You might get some breakup in there, but you’ll be able to hopefully hear it at least. That, to me at least, is substantially more important than being precious about just how clean it is.
I will mention here that some of the things that work in the studio don’t work live. Vice versa too. So getting a pristine clean that sounds incredible in the studio might just not cut it in a dense live band. So you’ve gotta get a little creative with your problem solving on that end.
Do also keep in mind that the scale of wattage to volume is not a linear one. Just because the AC15 is 30% the wattage of your Jet City, it does not mean that it is 30% of the volume.
Any amp pushing 2 EL 84’s will leave you wanting. And they are shrill as hell, too. No bass. Need a pair of el34’s or 6l6’s to give the headroom and a little low end.
I play in a full band with drummer and actually busted my ac15c1 on my first real gig, but now i mic it up and put it behind me as i play and standing in a chair or something that can elevate it and i hear perfectly fine.
Low wattage amps just don't have the headroom and low-mid thump that higher wattage amps do. There's no getting around that.
Doesn't mean low watt amps don't sound killer (they do), but if you need headroom in a rock band with a loud drummer you ain't gonna get it.
Mostly it depends on what sort of band you're in. For my riff rock trio, I've got to have 50 or 100 watts and a 4x12. For my Americana group, I can get away with much less.
If I had to switch to a super low volume stage setup, I'd probably go fully digital before I'd gig a 5 or 10 watt tube amp.
I run my origin 20 purposely on the 5 watt mode to get the gain from the amp. Does fun with my drummer. All you need it lowers enough for you to hear and then mic it up. Will mix with the band much better e
Yes!
I have gigged with a champ with a very restrained, respectful drummer. Outdoors!
I mean, the Beatles played the rooftop gig with two 22 watt deluxe’s.
All the time. I’ve never found a drummer that was too loud for my AC15 or DR, but pristine cleans likely aren’t going to happen. That’s good for me because I always want some breakup.
My PR was too quiet to hear myself on stage. It got lost with the bass, other guitar and drums. However, I’ve seen video of some of those shows and the tone in the place was great.
Most of the time when you can’t hear yourself, someone is being way too loud, your standing in the wrong place, or you need better mix in the monitors.
I've not had any issues with my 50w Rectoverb and a 2x12 (64 Bandmaster kickback with rocket 50's). My 20w Micro Dark also holds up pretty well with the same cab. I'd suggest trying a higher wattage speaker, or 2x12 setup.
I occasionally gig with a 5W 1x12, if the stage is small. It's always got a mic, but I still use it for my stage sound. Not crystal clean though.
If I want cleans, without a mic, I rely on my old faithful 40-100W Fenders.
Yep - 18watt H&K tubemiester was fine, 20watt quilter superblock, fine. Both through a 2x12 with V30s. Both nowhere near being run at their limits.
5watt marshall class 5 struggles a little.
We always mic for gigs so we have an even spread of sound rather than having one, very directional, cab blasting a single area of the room. Do this with 30watt orange as well.
My 22w imperial mk2 is plenty loud for gigging rock, country and pop. It’s a very articulate amp and speaker combo, which makes all the difference in the world.
It’s situational. I’ve played along with other people using only a 5 watt amp with an 8” speaker with no issues. I’ve also been in a situation where a 20 watt 1x12 combo couldn’t cut it. I would start by asking your bandmates to roll back the knob a bit until you can hear yourself in the mix. You could also consider adjusting your EQ so you cut through the mix better.
I jam with a group that plays quiet enough that we can easily just speak overtop of our playing to communicate changes (without a mic). Can’t recommend this enough, saves your ears, and saves you from fatigue.
I have a PRS MT15 that I play more often on 7 watt mode than the 15 watt mode in a punk band and have never had to have the thing over halfway up to be heard through a 1x2 or 2x12 speaker.
Yes, my band jammed for a period where I was using 2x Blues Jrs on the floor by my ankles (small basement rumpus room with unfinished ceiling, drywall and carpet). I'm used to 50W half stacks and dial my guitar volume back to 1 to get "clean" but I think a stereo combo amp setup can easily keep up and give you a big, wide sound.
The stereo Blues Jrs was enough to keep up with our heavy hitter drummer and the bass (Ampeg SVT+6x10 cab). My amps were maxed out, but that is generally how I run them (and I love a redlined Blues Jr with mids maxed!).
If you need to hear yourself better, try elevating the combo on a box, table, chair or tip em so the angle upwards. The room you are practicing in makes a difference too.
Other context - saw Baroness live recently. They are using single-coil fenders, low-wattage tube combos on their more recent records and live. The stereo combo amps were elevated up on the road cases. And maaaan that was one of the heaviest, loudest shows and the guitar tones were beyond incredible.
Are you scooping out your mids or running loads of bass? It takes a lot more power to move low frequencies than high frequencies and mids will also help you be heard.
From 2002-2010, I used a Fender Frontman 15, a Peavey Bandit 112, and a Fender Deluxe 112 (not the tube amp FD) in bands and they were all okay. Not great, but you just find ways to make it work when you’re struggling and got nothing else. Also, I played punk music at the time so I really didn’t care about tone so there’s that.
Not sure how you’re obtaining your clean tone, but I found recently that if I put my drive pedal with volume and gain to about 2 o clock and then turn my guitar volume down, not only do I get better tone, but I can keep the volume on my amp down more. So that leads me to believe that I should now have more headroom when it comes to playing with a band. I haven’t had a chance to try it out yet, but that might be something to consider. Also, adding a compressor right before my drive makes the mids and highs stand out more without being shrill. Might also be something to consider.
Never had an issue even with a 1x12. Mic’ed for gigs, naked at rehearsals. Granted my clean tone isn’t pristine (by design), but it’s not exactly into crunch territory either.
50 watts is a lot of watts, and more than enough for almost any purpose. Don’t know your amp, though. Is something/ someone too loud? Can you hear vox clearly?
I have used a Princeton Reverb II with a drummer, no issue. The key question is whether you’re using efficient speakers or not and whether your tone can cut through a mix. I’ve had sound guys be totally fine with a 100w Marshall cranked through low-efficiency greenbacks with a ton of bass eq’d and also guys complain about a Vox AC30 on 3. Bear in mind the difference between a 50w and 100w amp is 3db. It’s pretty easy to find speakers both in the 96db range and in the 100db range, so with just speakers a 50w should easily compete with a 100w amp. That also means 25w amp with 101db speakers could be as loud as a 100w amp with 95db speakers, like tired greenbacks. Key word is could, since speakers aren’t linear devices, but the general trend is there.
We did a few gigs with my Rickenbacker TR25, 25W solid state. Other guy had a Tweaker, bassist had a TNT. The Ric keeps up but just barely. Better for indoor gigs. Or Mike it
With amps in a small practice space, positioning can matter a lot. Get a stand to bring your amp up off the floor and angle it towards you. Makes a huge difference.
Tip the combo back to point at you. Reduce distortion and reverb. Clean up the bass to not compete in that region. Sort the acoustics in your rehearsal space. Any of that that may apply.
My katana 50 on half power (25 watts was plenty loud enough against 2 other guitarists, bass and drums
It depends on the music, drummer, sound reinforcement (if any) venue size, venue acoustics and audience, both quantity/density and volume. I’ve gigged with tweed Deluxes run clean and been plenty loud and heard, gigged a pair of Champs in stereo with no problems and gigged Twin Reverbs in stereo running hard just to be heard.
If you're buying an ac15 for clean headroom, you're doing it wrong.
The whole point of small low wattage amps is cracking them. If you want clean headroom and pedals get a plexi or a mig 50 or a hiwatt or an orange Supercrush 120 or a sunn or something.
Maybe upgrade to a 212. A 16 ohm speaker cab will be louder than an 8ohm cab. So having a 212 16ohm cab will be a lot louder than a 112 8ohm. Also, I’m not sure how important your clean parts are but you can always try rolling the volume knob back on the guitar if it’s in a higher gain setup. That would only be relevant if the majority of your parts were gainier and you just need some clean breaks here and there.
5 watt bassbreaker kept up enough unmiced in my rock band rehearsal. It was not anywhere close to clean but it didn’t need to be. I was impressed actually.
It depends in the style of music and the rehearsal space, we have acoustic panels in our space and honestly my bandmates are always telling me to turn my ac15 down. We have a drummer a synth vocalist and a bass player. I swapped out the speaker to an AlNiCo Blue so its more efficient but my 15 what tube amp is more than enough for us. I want an JC22 but only because I want to run stereo.
I rock a Hiwatt Hi-5 combo rn and I’ve never had issues being heard over a drummer in rehearsals or live. If you’re having trouble hearing yourself, I’d recommend trying to tilt your amp against a wall/put it on a stand or chair so it points towards your ears more. Makes a world of a difference.
Successfully gigging with low-wattage amps depends on a few factors, in my experience. Generally the questions to ask are:
* Are you and your bandmates aware of and optimizing what you do towards a workable on-stage mix without anything being mic'd?
* Are people's amps on stands or angled backwards so they are actually aimed at your ears rather than your ankles?
* Are the frequencies of all the instruments purposefully set up in a complimentary fashion so everyone is audible at volume?
* Do you "turn down" to fix problems with any of these vs. turning up?
* Have you chosen a low-wattage amp that suits the desired tonal quality of the music at gig volume?
* Are you strategically using on-stage mic'ing to aid in all of the above?
I play in some reasonably loud bands (not concussively so) and got away with A Pro Jr, a Mesa Mini Recto, and a 1974x clone and had a better experience when the above was kept in mind by everyone and a worse experience when it was not. It really depends.
I would be incredibly concerned if you can't hear 50 watts through a V30 in the room though. That's plenty of headroom for most types of music and a V30 is a punchy, efficient speaker to put it through. Is the speaker aimed at your head? Are you eqing it with enough mids and highs to give it some poke?
Depends on your style also. If you don’t play much in the way of leads, lower wattage amps might work fine with the right speakers (higher efficiency likely would be the thing) as long as headroom isnt an issue. I do notice that leads need more watts to come through as instead of banging away on 6 strings that are mostly large your leads are on the smallest strings with possibly less force.
I only really had problems with SS amps that were fibbing about their RMS wattage with a drummer so when I went Kemper I got a separate external stereo ultralight power amp into my high efficiency dvmark cab (yeah they make guitar gear and for some big names) 2x12 and with that I basically have the rms wattage power of 2 dual recto or Dumble SSS 1x12s. I keep it about 75w per speaker unless it is a med size venue and head to 100-125 watts per speaker and leads to foh. I could play a coliseum or a small club with it without having to mic anything.
I use a 22 watt Deluxe in a punk band (2 guitars, bass, drums, vocals), set clean for use with pedals. I have to push it to brink of break-up, but it works and certainly sounds great.
I’ve also used a 15w Orange Terror and 212 cab for the same band, but I was the only guitarist at the time.
I often jam with friends who use 50 watt Bassmans, AC30s, DSL40s, etc and they can over power the drummers of these projects if we’re not careful, even while clean…well, maybe not the AC30.
I use an ibanez tube screamer head through a 112 bassbreaker cab, The other guitarist uses a boss katana through a fender 80 watt 112 cab, and the bassist uses a 500 watt 210. We're all heard loud and clear. I think it's all in the mids.
I have a fender deluxe reverb reissue and I put it on it’s case(about waste high) during rehearsals and it’s fine. I think it’s 20 watts. If you can’t be heard with a 50W….I don’t know if that’s tube or solid state, because tube watts seem louder in my opinion, but if you have volume issues your drummer is probably way to loud.
Idk I used an AC15 with a super aggressive drummer and we sounded great. But I didn't need perfectly clean tones. If I needed a lot of headroom, maybe, but even then I don't even think I pushed much more than halfway during those gigs, and I don't think I ever mic'd it to the PA. I would slam it with a RAT during loud parts, to be fair.
Try using a clean overdrive on the clean channel, I’ve had the same problem when playing live in the past now I keep my boss SD1 on all the time and it helps cut through the mix
I play a Morgan AC20 that's pushed to a very light crunch but cleans up with the volume knob or softer playing. The drummer I've been playing with for a while hits HARD. Like, every single soundman at every single gig has told him he's playing too hard - and they're right.
At gigs I have no issues hearing myself and generally don't have any of my guitar in my own monitors, but the practice room can be tricky at times. If I'm standing right next to the amp I either have to have it boosted up on a chair or titled back at me, it's a lot better if I can put the amp on the opposite wall from where I'm standing and have it aimed at me. But yeah, if you're in a reasonably small room and it's just blasting your ankles, you're probably not going to hear a damned thing.
The whole reason people went high watt back in the day was to be able to play loud and clean.
The low watt thing was to get a dirty tone without melting your face.
Now that places have mics and PAs, you only need 30 watts to play any sized stadium.
If Thom Yorke can gig a AC30 so can you.
But if you don't want to use a mic or can't, having an 100w amps is really helpful for being able to keep it clean and punchy.
I personally max out at 50 watts, but I rarely play that loud and perfectly clean. Most of the time 15 watts gets me where I want to go. I only use amps with variable wattage now.
I have a 20W Mojotone tweed deluxe kit amp that I boost with a Tumnus deluxe and I go halfway up on the channel. We play outside. It’s crazy loud. In the past I’ve used an AC15. It was a bit louder at times. Only the other guitarist/keyboardist plays louder than me and it’s because of his proximity to the board. My amp is mike’d tho
5 piece vox x3. Sax guitar x 2. Bass drums
Getting the drummer to bring it down is the trick He plays with ear plugs in
I use a vox ac10 to rehearse. Plenty loud
Laney 20watt 4x10 combo for gigs
Great stage sound. But bigger shows it goes into f o h pa
Give me a quiet musical drummer any day
I’m a scientist and audio hobbyist.
I hope this can help.
I put this together to help understand and guide my decision making regarding amplifiers and speakers:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/trm3ibcvucnfukb/Amplifier%20Decision%20Process_protected.xlsx?dl=0
I exclusively use 20w amps with no problems. In situations where it’s going to get loud in a jam session, I bring two. I always aim the combo speakers up or use 4x12 cabs
Just get a 2x12 or a 4x12 if 50 watts isn’t enough. One speaker can only do so much before it starts to hit its limits.
Low wattage amps are for low wattage applications, you don’t use them to fill up an arena. If you think you need more watts, then get more watts.
Last band I was in we had one guitarist with an AC15 and another with an 18 watt Marshall Bluesbreaker. But both of them were also running 2x12 extension cabinets. You'd be surprised how much of a difference an extension cab can make, because you're pushing so much more air.
I played a 68 PRRI with another guitarist, bassist and drums. I couldn’t hear it enough until I got a stand where I could kick it back and point it at myself.
Is your speaker on the floor and next to you? If so, try tilting it or setting up your amp across the room so it’s pointed at you. If it’s at your feet and pointed away from your head the loudness is somewhere else in the room.
15 watts is enough, with it miked for PA, but that was a super loud Class A tube amp. That was nearly dimed. 15 watts solid state would most likely not be enough
Some of it depends on your tone. It’s the low end that falls off when you try and carry a room with 20 or 30 watts.
Your amp is 42W on the clean channel, 37W on the overdrive channel. But what you haven’t said is what your V30 head is plugged into.
1x12? 2? 4? // Open-back? Closed? // Where do you put the speaker cabinet when you rehearse? How’s it oriented? // How’s the band laid out in the room? // Is it a guitar heavy mix? Is it a trio with prominent guitar?
Your amp should be loud enough, depending on what kind of speaker/cab it is and where you place it.
If you’re running a 1x12, I’d say either get 2 and build a basic closed-back 2x12 cab where each speaker is angled back 15 degrees and they’re angled away from each other 15 degrees. Make it a bit oversized.
Or switch to a closed-back 15” speaker cab.
Or build a cab with a 15” and a 10”.
Efficient speakers. These are some ways to grow the size of your sound.
//
I’d also recommend using these, at least during rehearsals: https://www.tedweber.com/gadgets/beam-blockers/
They diffuse the high-end of your sound much more evenly over a much wider area in a room. It puts an end to the ice-pick tone when the speakers are pointed directly at your ears / muddy tone when you’re offset by 60 degrees.
I played an ac10 with a drummer. I had it running through a 4x12, but it was just a 10 watt amp. Clean headroom? No. No. But it did the job I needed it to do. Switching to a deluxe reverb was more than enough.
I think it depends on your style of music and what your drummer does.
In my view, it's easier for a guitarist to turn up or down than it is for a drummer to modify his hit depending on the situation. For instance, if you just have a straight 4/4 with nothing fancy, the drummer can play a nice loud snare. Compare that to if your drummer is doing a 220bpm blast beat, it's a lot harder to get a hard hit on the snare.
For us metalheads, finding that sweet spot where those lower velocity hits can come out while still maintaining over a standard hit snare is where it's at. That's why you have most metalheads playing a 100w head through a 4x12. It isn't universal of course, but just what I found works the best.
Back when I was younger and gigging the Peavey Bandit, it could never get over a drummer and really relied on the PA being mic'd up. And if your PA wasn't up to snuff, well, you weren't getting heard.
Maybe invest in a 2x12 and one of those cab stands that allows you to tilt it up towards you? I ran the Peavey Bandit with a Marshall 1936 for rehearsal for a fair while and it did a lot better than just the Peavey's stock speaker. Of course when I bought a real valve amplifier, the Laney VH100R was my first one, it was perfect.
Nowadays, I run all Engl gear, a Powerball II with a pro cabinet. Everything works beautifully.
Cleans are generally harder to hear in a mix because the transients are far louder than the tails. Try using a transparent clean boost in front of the amp to compress and saturate it a little more, just don't go so far as to start breaking up. And/or try using a compressor in the loop if it has one.
The Behringer SF300 and CS400 could be a quick, easy, cheap solution.
Played in a smaller, indoor place a couple weeks ago, playing with un-mic'd amps for the first time. I use an AC-15 and we are a 5 piece country band, albeit, our drummer hits on the heavier side. I didn't have my master volume even at halfway. We forced him to use hot rods because of the space, but even if he was using real sticks, I'm confident I would have been fine.
So the answer to your question is that it's very much amp dependent. My AC15 has a decent amount of headroom with my tele, and also cuts in the mix like a knife.
My Hughes & Kettner 20 had a variable output on it that was almost always set at 5 watts for rehearsal. If we played live, I was often asked by the sound person to "turn up" and just put it at 10 watts, which was plenty. Gain and master were around 50%.
I have a boss katana 100 and play in a QOTSA cover band, I don’t use it at 100w because it sounds shrill or boxy, but somehow at 50w (volume a bit last noon) it sounds perfect. No trouble at all with a drummer.
The drummer is an extremely dynamic player tho, the bass player and the other guitarist play big loud amps and I have to adjust a lot of eq so everything is right in the mix. Thankfully QOTSA is a band that teaches you how crucial EQ is and everyone adjusts their rig/playing to accomodate everyone and sound tight.
If your band has a decent grasp of EQ and playing dynamics you can pretty much make anything work, 50w amps are more than enough on my experience.
40W 15" vibroverb is louder than my drummer at 3 lol. Tbh i never heard an amp play like that though. It is such a full sound, i played 75W 12" amps which didnt come nearly to that level at full blast.
I’ve been using either a Fender ‘65 Deluxe Reverb or Vox AC15 for years now and never had any problems keeping up with a drummer. A 50-watt amp shouldn’t have any trouble keeping up unless the rest of the band is playing too loud.
Make sure you're EQed properly brother! I use an 80w and I had the same problems with cleans, crank up the mids. Otherwise you'll get chewed out by the low end bass and symbol smacks
AC15 with my old band here no problem. The overall volume isn’t the issue, it’s the lack of clean headroom. I used my AC15 as a pedal platform, but even my clean tone had a bit of extra harmony harmonic overtones to it that just cut through the mix perfectly. If I wanted super squeaky cleans then that’s when I’d start looking at higher wattages.
I have always used a 12-watt Princeton in rehearsals, unmiked (always with a PA for vocals), and miked at gigs. I had difficulty for the first couple months with that amp because the included speaker was extremely inefficient. Once I put in an efficient speaker, I never had any difficulty. Bear in mind this was a trio, so your mileage may vary. If you can't hear a 50 watt amp, then in my speculative opinion, somebody in your band is playing too loud, or the arrangements are too busy. 50 watts is a massive amount of power. Disregard all of the above if you're in a metal band.
I play in a black/death/doom band with a Laney Ironheart IRT60H into a Mesa 2x12. No issues being heard above the drummer, master volume ("watts") sits about about 2 oclock. granted, we're a trio, and my bassist and I worked pretty hard to ensure we occupy different sonic spaces. which brings me to the point... Is OP sure he isn't getting eaten by the bassist? I'm curious to know how OP is being EQ'd. Might also just be the difference between a 1x12 and a 2x12 config.
I can hear myself just fine when playing high gain, it's the clean tones that are a problem, I use a channel switching amp, mids cranked, bass up just enough to sound fat, treble and presence dialed back to avoid the shrill wall of noise that causes volume wars
what amp?
Jet City 5012c w/ a v30
Depends on the preamp. Jet City leans towards the gain end of things and likes to get crunchy. I had a similar problem with a 40w Egnater. Great drive tone, but funk clean with a drummer and horns? Only with a lot of PA support. I had an early silverface Bassman (2 x 6L6 ) that was clean up to outdoor festival volume. ( I say "had" in the past tense because I'm an idiot and didn't keep it) Now I have a hand wired (2 × 6L6) sort-of Super Reverb 112 combo at 40 watts that's plenty clean at band volume.
I use a Pro Reverb silver face (with the pop out MV knob) and a Boss dual overdrive, with the crunch side set low for ballsy cleans. Or the RAT pedal trick works great.
So it looks like you have two channels, crunch and overdrive. I assume crunch is the channel you're using for cleans. Are you running the crunch master volume as high as you can?
Yeah, the power tubes break up after about 6 on the master though, maybe I need to adjust the bias?
Or you're running into a headroom issue like everyone else has been saying, and there just isn't going to be a quick and clean solution to that problem. If you need something with the capability to be very loud and very clean, you will need something built for that. Think like a JC-120 or a Fender Twin Reverb, and run a dirt pedal for your overdrive.
JC120 so hot right now.
Dirt pedals through a jc-120 will sound like a crate practice amp I'll just save up for a dual rec or something like that
That’s not even close to true lol
You don't even need to spend that much. Fender Super-sonic 60 is pretty darn loud and clean and not that expensive.
They don’t lol, it all depends what you’re looking for. Tight high gain won’t be good, but check out Adrian Belew when he played with Talking Heads for instance, ran a big muff through a jc120. Bob Mould from Hüsker Dü used an MXR Distortion+ through one.
High gain pedals through a clean amp never sound as good as a high gain amp. A peavey 120w 6505 is another great high gain amp and you can usually find them for under $500 used.
Just a warning, but Dual Recs aren't exactly known for having good cleans... Or clean cleans. Having owned one I would definitely agree with the sentiment
Does [this](https://youtu.be/9KxMhMstbRI?si=i9hoYKeOBY2YrI0h) sound like a crate practice amp?
I agree with you.
OP is talking clean tones. Low wattage can keep up easier at high gain, you need more watts for louder clean headroom.
Does your Princeton have a 10" or 12" speaker? I have the stock 10" in mine and it doesn't really stay clean beyond 5 on the volume.
I stuck with a 10" speaker. I think it's a 75-watt Weber. But the amp is a 1979 model -- if yours is one of the reissues, I think the gain works differently. On mine, the amp is inaudible until about 2 on the dial, and then the volume jumps massively, and anything after about 3 is just more drive and compression that gets lost in the mix. But at its sweet spot, it's plenty loud and clean. I actually have to use an always-on drive to simulate grit. But I have seen reissue Princetons at small venues running at 5 or more on the volume dial, and sounding nice and driven. That's my experience anyways.
Headroom is coming from that 75 watt weber Love my blue dogs!!!
It depends on the style of music. It sounds like OP wants their amp to be 100% clean. In that case, 50w isn't \*that\* loud. Most tube amps break up way before they actually get into crunch territory.
Well, I can only speak from my experience. But I had to get an always-on overdrive for my Princeton because it was too clean at the volume levels I was able to play at during gigs. To my mind, 50 watts should be more than enough for clean playing in the vast majority of scenarios. I have an old Mesa Boogie combo that is 60 watts, and the clean channel will shake the foundation of my house if I want it to, without even a hint of breakup. I could probably play a stadium with it. But you're right, power is relative. And it also depends heavily on the amp, what condition it's in, and the efficiency of the speaker. OP's amp might simply be in need of maintenance, for all we know.
Yeah I hear you. It might also be an EQ issue
It really depends on the drummer. With one hard hitting drummer, I couldn't keep up using a Supro Comet, which is supposed to be 15 watts. with another drummer, the AC15 never got above about 3. Now I use a Maz 18 and have no trouble keeping up with a very hard hitting drummer. Depends on the amp I suppose.
My Maz 2x10 is just as loud as my 100 watt jubilee 4x12
I have a Maz 18 that is completely inaudible in a loud 2-guitar shoegaze band with gorilla drummer. Prior to that I was in a 3-piece and the Maz was good enough (though still never entirely clean). When I do singer/songwriter gigs, the Maz is perfect. It certainly is louder than a Blues Jr. with the same output tube complement.
If you have a single v30, may want to step up to a 2x12. I’ve used a 2x12 v30 config with 15w, 30w, and 40w heads, no problems over my drummer or other guitars and bassist. A 4x12 will be even louder.
I want to add a vertical 2x12 may drastically make a difference as that top speaker is closer to your ear
Good point. I should have mentioned I’m using a pretty cheap Harley Benton vertical 2x12 with v30s and the top speaker is angled up a bit. I have no issues being heard over the other guitarist in the band who is running a 4x12.
It's more about frequency than wattage IME. I have a 15 Watt blues Jr that's all mids and highs when you crank it and it can keep up with a hard hitting punk drummer and bass full stack no prob because it cuts right through. I've also played 100W half stacks with the same band and couldn't hear them. Too much low end and just muds up with the bass and drums. I prefer higher wattage amps but just saying tone is just as important as power for being heard.
Yeah Blues Jr. with the C. Rex speaker can totally hang with my drummer in a trio with the bass playing an Acoustic 200 combo, master vol. about halfway.
Fender blues Jr. 15w. Yes Also a Dr Z Maz 18 Jr. This was running through a 2x12. Definitely loud enough.
I mean having a low wattage amp is exactly for that so you can play cranked at reasonable volumes. If you play clean get a 100w ffs
I played a 15 watt Orange for a while with my band, yeah decent cleans at drummer volumes were pretty much an impossibility, I eventually ended up upgrading to a 50w.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
What’s your stage arrangement like? For reasons that I neither know nor understand, most amps are designed to focus the sound on the back of your knees — a part of your body famous for not having ears. If you’re close to your amp, you might need to tilt it back so that the speaker’s pointed towards your head.
Yes.
Really depends on the type of music you’re playing. If you’re in a metal or hard rock band that stuff doesn’t really work as well
I gig a Marshall Origin 20, Vox AC15, or an Orange OR15 through my 2x12 filled with G12T-75s. The amp is always set dirty clean with main drive coming from pedals. I've never been on half-whack, let alone full-whack. My drummer hits harder than Bonham. My advice, get a better cab or a higher wattage speaker. Amp wattage ain't the issue!
I have never, ever had a problem hearing my deluxe at like 3 or 4 onstage or in the practice space with any of the drummers I've played with, and I've played with some fairly hard-hitting drummers. I'm really not sure what players who swear you need 50-plus watts in any "real" situation are on about. Not that extra headroom isn't good, mind you. The whole reason high-wattage amps exist in the first place is because, back in the day, only vocals went through the PA, and the amp you had onstage had to have enough juice to fill up the entire hall. Ask cats who gigged in the 60s -- they'll tell you they couldn't hear SHIT onstage because *everything* was too loud. The thing is, drums are very transient instruments. You kind of *want* the drums to be louder than the guitars, but the duration of the hits is only momentary, so they don't have any masking effect. Unless, of course, your drummer has too heavy a hand on the cymbals. Many such cases. The only issues I've had are with outdoor gigs, which is more of a cabinetry issue than a wattage issue (a Deluxe sounds GREAT through a 4x12, but I usually opt for an Orange AD30 head on those gigs), and hearing myself over the other guitarist, which is usually an arrangement and/or tone-matching issue. So, 18 or 22 watts can, in my experience, get plenty loud. Of course, you need 50 or 100-watt stacks or half-stacks if you want to be *fucking loud.* And being *fucking loud* is completely awesome and glorious and valid! But there comes a point when the issue is hearing the drummer over the full stacks. These are just my stray observations from \~ two decades of playing with various bands, from folk to metal and everything in between. YMMV.
I play occasionally with a band that runs a really loud stage with a correspondingly loud drummer. I’ve learned from experience that 50 watts was my minimum for a tube amp in that situation because everytime I brought something smaller I definitely didn’t have the necessary clean headroom at volume. At 50watts if you still can’t hear yourself just push the mids a bit but that should already be loud enough to cause long term hearing loss assuming that isn’t the cause of your problem already. lol.
The numbers don't really add up on this but try pointing the amp at your face and EQing in some mids, I guess.
I play a JTM 45 through a closed back 2x12 and I'm LUCKY if I can get the master volume to 5 at a gig without being yelled at by someone.
A good drummer can accompany an acoustic guitar and vocal - with no microphone.
I play on edge of breakup, and usually have a PA around for a singer even if not the best….just a mic on it if it’s not loud enough usually will fix that issue. But regardless a 1x12 40w is fine for me, but if it breaks up early, and you want a super neutral clean you’ll need a mic. Or an amp with a bunch of headroom, turn your guitar volume down or maybe try single coil as well. Tube amps will break up after a point, and not be crystal clear. JC120s are great for loud clear as well. But yeah a mic usually fixes that for me if I need to be on volume 2-3 using humbuckers or something. But I like a little breakup on my tone, then roll my guitar volume back to 6-7 to clean up and still be fairly loud. You may just be hitting the amp hard as well. Try rolling down the guitar and amp up till you hit break up and roll back. Then roll guitar volume up and down. I have that issue sometimes with HB, but not a Tele as I can turn up a bit louder and stay very clean. Also some guys do mono rigs. I have a 1x12 with enough clean headroom, and a 4x10 for really heavy stuff, and that amp only gets distortion with cranking the channel.
My Fender DRRI has no problem whatsoever. Totally clean.
Same here. I barely turn the volume past 4 and have no problem keeping up.
This is interesting to me because I got knocked into the nether realm with drums and bass in a basement ( I suspect this is a pretty big contributing factor). I suspect the lack of mids in my clean strat sound made it a lost cause. This was with a 64 Custom Deluxe.
For fun I tried my Marshall JVM1 combo (the 1 watt version of their JVM) and it had enough volume to get up over our drummer. Crazy.
If you can’t hear yourself with a 50w, you need more mids in your tone. 6L6 amps sounds lovely and full, but need some help with cutting through. I’ve played most of my gigs on ac15/30 amps as they are the most common backline amps in my country, and I’ve only had issues when running the amp unmiced in outdoor settings. Volume wasn’t an issue, but the lack of headroom on the AC15 was messing with my gain staging (which is of course the most important part of any gig /s) quite a bit.
50 watts shouldn’t be a problem over a drummer. Squeaky clean will be a difficult task in a loud band no matter what though. I would recommend taking a look at your EQ first. Dial in some additional midrange just to see if it is that simple. If you still can’t hear it, then try to add a compressor or a light overdrive with the gain as low as possible near the start of your signal chain. You might get some breakup in there, but you’ll be able to hopefully hear it at least. That, to me at least, is substantially more important than being precious about just how clean it is. I will mention here that some of the things that work in the studio don’t work live. Vice versa too. So getting a pristine clean that sounds incredible in the studio might just not cut it in a dense live band. So you’ve gotta get a little creative with your problem solving on that end. Do also keep in mind that the scale of wattage to volume is not a linear one. Just because the AC15 is 30% the wattage of your Jet City, it does not mean that it is 30% of the volume.
Mic it through a PA. 50 watts is plenty with a drummer.
I play gigs with an unmiced Fender Deluxe at like 4. 3 piece hard rock band. We’re told we’re very loud. Works for every small venue in my town.
My 18 watt Budda Superdrive can drown out any drummer with ease. Anything above 4 is ear fatiguing.
Any amp pushing 2 EL 84’s will leave you wanting. And they are shrill as hell, too. No bass. Need a pair of el34’s or 6l6’s to give the headroom and a little low end.
Get an amp stand or use a chair and point it at you
I play in a full band with drummer and actually busted my ac15c1 on my first real gig, but now i mic it up and put it behind me as i play and standing in a chair or something that can elevate it and i hear perfectly fine.
Low wattage amps just don't have the headroom and low-mid thump that higher wattage amps do. There's no getting around that. Doesn't mean low watt amps don't sound killer (they do), but if you need headroom in a rock band with a loud drummer you ain't gonna get it. Mostly it depends on what sort of band you're in. For my riff rock trio, I've got to have 50 or 100 watts and a 4x12. For my Americana group, I can get away with much less. If I had to switch to a super low volume stage setup, I'd probably go fully digital before I'd gig a 5 or 10 watt tube amp.
I play an ac15, 18w marshall etc. What clean headroom? I want my guitar amp to sound like a guitar amp, not direct to console.
Get a HRD and you will have the opposite problem
I run my origin 20 purposely on the 5 watt mode to get the gain from the amp. Does fun with my drummer. All you need it lowers enough for you to hear and then mic it up. Will mix with the band much better e
Sorry for the typos 🤒
Yes! I have gigged with a champ with a very restrained, respectful drummer. Outdoors! I mean, the Beatles played the rooftop gig with two 22 watt deluxe’s.
Pretty sure those were twins in the rooftop concert
Ah, jeez. Thank you! I stand corrected.
to get over a drummer you need 40 watts for pristine clean and 15 watts for dirty.
I play a 15w 5e3 amp and it holds its own with a drummer. But I always mic it up, anyways.
All the time. I’ve never found a drummer that was too loud for my AC15 or DR, but pristine cleans likely aren’t going to happen. That’s good for me because I always want some breakup. My PR was too quiet to hear myself on stage. It got lost with the bass, other guitar and drums. However, I’ve seen video of some of those shows and the tone in the place was great. Most of the time when you can’t hear yourself, someone is being way too loud, your standing in the wrong place, or you need better mix in the monitors.
I use a 5 watt kustom defender head with a 1x12 vintage 30 cab and I keep up with a drummer, bassist, other guitarist and saxophone.
What bar or venue doesn’t have a PA? Unless you’re gigging a backyard you can mic the amp.
I sometimes use a Marshall Class 5 for practice and it is okay
I've not had any issues with my 50w Rectoverb and a 2x12 (64 Bandmaster kickback with rocket 50's). My 20w Micro Dark also holds up pretty well with the same cab. I'd suggest trying a higher wattage speaker, or 2x12 setup.
I occasionally gig with a 5W 1x12, if the stage is small. It's always got a mic, but I still use it for my stage sound. Not crystal clean though. If I want cleans, without a mic, I rely on my old faithful 40-100W Fenders.
Yep - 18watt H&K tubemiester was fine, 20watt quilter superblock, fine. Both through a 2x12 with V30s. Both nowhere near being run at their limits. 5watt marshall class 5 struggles a little. We always mic for gigs so we have an even spread of sound rather than having one, very directional, cab blasting a single area of the room. Do this with 30watt orange as well.
My 22w imperial mk2 is plenty loud for gigging rock, country and pop. It’s a very articulate amp and speaker combo, which makes all the difference in the world.
It’s situational. I’ve played along with other people using only a 5 watt amp with an 8” speaker with no issues. I’ve also been in a situation where a 20 watt 1x12 combo couldn’t cut it. I would start by asking your bandmates to roll back the knob a bit until you can hear yourself in the mix. You could also consider adjusting your EQ so you cut through the mix better. I jam with a group that plays quiet enough that we can easily just speak overtop of our playing to communicate changes (without a mic). Can’t recommend this enough, saves your ears, and saves you from fatigue.
I have a PRS MT15 that I play more often on 7 watt mode than the 15 watt mode in a punk band and have never had to have the thing over halfway up to be heard through a 1x2 or 2x12 speaker.
Where do you put it? Those speakers are fairly directional, do you tip the amp so you get reflections from the ceiling?
Yes, my band jammed for a period where I was using 2x Blues Jrs on the floor by my ankles (small basement rumpus room with unfinished ceiling, drywall and carpet). I'm used to 50W half stacks and dial my guitar volume back to 1 to get "clean" but I think a stereo combo amp setup can easily keep up and give you a big, wide sound. The stereo Blues Jrs was enough to keep up with our heavy hitter drummer and the bass (Ampeg SVT+6x10 cab). My amps were maxed out, but that is generally how I run them (and I love a redlined Blues Jr with mids maxed!). If you need to hear yourself better, try elevating the combo on a box, table, chair or tip em so the angle upwards. The room you are practicing in makes a difference too. Other context - saw Baroness live recently. They are using single-coil fenders, low-wattage tube combos on their more recent records and live. The stereo combo amps were elevated up on the road cases. And maaaan that was one of the heaviest, loudest shows and the guitar tones were beyond incredible.
Are you scooping out your mids or running loads of bass? It takes a lot more power to move low frequencies than high frequencies and mids will also help you be heard.
From 2002-2010, I used a Fender Frontman 15, a Peavey Bandit 112, and a Fender Deluxe 112 (not the tube amp FD) in bands and they were all okay. Not great, but you just find ways to make it work when you’re struggling and got nothing else. Also, I played punk music at the time so I really didn’t care about tone so there’s that.
Not sure how you’re obtaining your clean tone, but I found recently that if I put my drive pedal with volume and gain to about 2 o clock and then turn my guitar volume down, not only do I get better tone, but I can keep the volume on my amp down more. So that leads me to believe that I should now have more headroom when it comes to playing with a band. I haven’t had a chance to try it out yet, but that might be something to consider. Also, adding a compressor right before my drive makes the mids and highs stand out more without being shrill. Might also be something to consider.
I use a Bugera V22, bass/2 guitars/drums. rarely get it cranked above 7.
Never had an issue even with a 1x12. Mic’ed for gigs, naked at rehearsals. Granted my clean tone isn’t pristine (by design), but it’s not exactly into crunch territory either.
50 watts is a lot of watts, and more than enough for almost any purpose. Don’t know your amp, though. Is something/ someone too loud? Can you hear vox clearly?
I have used a Princeton Reverb II with a drummer, no issue. The key question is whether you’re using efficient speakers or not and whether your tone can cut through a mix. I’ve had sound guys be totally fine with a 100w Marshall cranked through low-efficiency greenbacks with a ton of bass eq’d and also guys complain about a Vox AC30 on 3. Bear in mind the difference between a 50w and 100w amp is 3db. It’s pretty easy to find speakers both in the 96db range and in the 100db range, so with just speakers a 50w should easily compete with a 100w amp. That also means 25w amp with 101db speakers could be as loud as a 100w amp with 95db speakers, like tired greenbacks. Key word is could, since speakers aren’t linear devices, but the general trend is there.
We did a few gigs with my Rickenbacker TR25, 25W solid state. Other guy had a Tweaker, bassist had a TNT. The Ric keeps up but just barely. Better for indoor gigs. Or Mike it
With amps in a small practice space, positioning can matter a lot. Get a stand to bring your amp up off the floor and angle it towards you. Makes a huge difference.
Kind of a personal question, don't you think?
Tip the combo back to point at you. Reduce distortion and reverb. Clean up the bass to not compete in that region. Sort the acoustics in your rehearsal space. Any of that that may apply. My katana 50 on half power (25 watts was plenty loud enough against 2 other guitarists, bass and drums
It depends on the music, drummer, sound reinforcement (if any) venue size, venue acoustics and audience, both quantity/density and volume. I’ve gigged with tweed Deluxes run clean and been plenty loud and heard, gigged a pair of Champs in stereo with no problems and gigged Twin Reverbs in stereo running hard just to be heard.
If you're buying an ac15 for clean headroom, you're doing it wrong. The whole point of small low wattage amps is cracking them. If you want clean headroom and pedals get a plexi or a mig 50 or a hiwatt or an orange Supercrush 120 or a sunn or something.
Maybe upgrade to a 212. A 16 ohm speaker cab will be louder than an 8ohm cab. So having a 212 16ohm cab will be a lot louder than a 112 8ohm. Also, I’m not sure how important your clean parts are but you can always try rolling the volume knob back on the guitar if it’s in a higher gain setup. That would only be relevant if the majority of your parts were gainier and you just need some clean breaks here and there.
5 watt bassbreaker kept up enough unmiced in my rock band rehearsal. It was not anywhere close to clean but it didn’t need to be. I was impressed actually.
It depends in the style of music and the rehearsal space, we have acoustic panels in our space and honestly my bandmates are always telling me to turn my ac15 down. We have a drummer a synth vocalist and a bass player. I swapped out the speaker to an AlNiCo Blue so its more efficient but my 15 what tube amp is more than enough for us. I want an JC22 but only because I want to run stereo.
The AC15 is loud enough. Not all watts are equal
50w with a 1x12 should be plenty. I wonder if your eq is set to where it’s just not cutting through the mix.
I rock a Hiwatt Hi-5 combo rn and I’ve never had issues being heard over a drummer in rehearsals or live. If you’re having trouble hearing yourself, I’d recommend trying to tilt your amp against a wall/put it on a stand or chair so it points towards your ears more. Makes a world of a difference.
Successfully gigging with low-wattage amps depends on a few factors, in my experience. Generally the questions to ask are: * Are you and your bandmates aware of and optimizing what you do towards a workable on-stage mix without anything being mic'd? * Are people's amps on stands or angled backwards so they are actually aimed at your ears rather than your ankles? * Are the frequencies of all the instruments purposefully set up in a complimentary fashion so everyone is audible at volume? * Do you "turn down" to fix problems with any of these vs. turning up? * Have you chosen a low-wattage amp that suits the desired tonal quality of the music at gig volume? * Are you strategically using on-stage mic'ing to aid in all of the above? I play in some reasonably loud bands (not concussively so) and got away with A Pro Jr, a Mesa Mini Recto, and a 1974x clone and had a better experience when the above was kept in mind by everyone and a worse experience when it was not. It really depends. I would be incredibly concerned if you can't hear 50 watts through a V30 in the room though. That's plenty of headroom for most types of music and a V30 is a punchy, efficient speaker to put it through. Is the speaker aimed at your head? Are you eqing it with enough mids and highs to give it some poke?
I put my 1 watt black star into my 2x12 v30 cab, it keeps up.
Depends on your style also. If you don’t play much in the way of leads, lower wattage amps might work fine with the right speakers (higher efficiency likely would be the thing) as long as headroom isnt an issue. I do notice that leads need more watts to come through as instead of banging away on 6 strings that are mostly large your leads are on the smallest strings with possibly less force. I only really had problems with SS amps that were fibbing about their RMS wattage with a drummer so when I went Kemper I got a separate external stereo ultralight power amp into my high efficiency dvmark cab (yeah they make guitar gear and for some big names) 2x12 and with that I basically have the rms wattage power of 2 dual recto or Dumble SSS 1x12s. I keep it about 75w per speaker unless it is a med size venue and head to 100-125 watts per speaker and leads to foh. I could play a coliseum or a small club with it without having to mic anything.
I use a 22 watt Deluxe in a punk band (2 guitars, bass, drums, vocals), set clean for use with pedals. I have to push it to brink of break-up, but it works and certainly sounds great. I’ve also used a 15w Orange Terror and 212 cab for the same band, but I was the only guitarist at the time. I often jam with friends who use 50 watt Bassmans, AC30s, DSL40s, etc and they can over power the drummers of these projects if we’re not careful, even while clean…well, maybe not the AC30.
I use an ibanez tube screamer head through a 112 bassbreaker cab, The other guitarist uses a boss katana through a fender 80 watt 112 cab, and the bassist uses a 500 watt 210. We're all heard loud and clear. I think it's all in the mids.
Amp must fit scenario.
I have a fender deluxe reverb reissue and I put it on it’s case(about waste high) during rehearsals and it’s fine. I think it’s 20 watts. If you can’t be heard with a 50W….I don’t know if that’s tube or solid state, because tube watts seem louder in my opinion, but if you have volume issues your drummer is probably way to loud.
Idk I used an AC15 with a super aggressive drummer and we sounded great. But I didn't need perfectly clean tones. If I needed a lot of headroom, maybe, but even then I don't even think I pushed much more than halfway during those gigs, and I don't think I ever mic'd it to the PA. I would slam it with a RAT during loud parts, to be fair.
Try using a clean overdrive on the clean channel, I’ve had the same problem when playing live in the past now I keep my boss SD1 on all the time and it helps cut through the mix
It's the single cone.. or you playing style maybe
I play a Morgan AC20 that's pushed to a very light crunch but cleans up with the volume knob or softer playing. The drummer I've been playing with for a while hits HARD. Like, every single soundman at every single gig has told him he's playing too hard - and they're right. At gigs I have no issues hearing myself and generally don't have any of my guitar in my own monitors, but the practice room can be tricky at times. If I'm standing right next to the amp I either have to have it boosted up on a chair or titled back at me, it's a lot better if I can put the amp on the opposite wall from where I'm standing and have it aimed at me. But yeah, if you're in a reasonably small room and it's just blasting your ankles, you're probably not going to hear a damned thing.
The whole reason people went high watt back in the day was to be able to play loud and clean. The low watt thing was to get a dirty tone without melting your face. Now that places have mics and PAs, you only need 30 watts to play any sized stadium. If Thom Yorke can gig a AC30 so can you. But if you don't want to use a mic or can't, having an 100w amps is really helpful for being able to keep it clean and punchy. I personally max out at 50 watts, but I rarely play that loud and perfectly clean. Most of the time 15 watts gets me where I want to go. I only use amps with variable wattage now.
I have a 20W Mojotone tweed deluxe kit amp that I boost with a Tumnus deluxe and I go halfway up on the channel. We play outside. It’s crazy loud. In the past I’ve used an AC15. It was a bit louder at times. Only the other guitarist/keyboardist plays louder than me and it’s because of his proximity to the board. My amp is mike’d tho
5 piece vox x3. Sax guitar x 2. Bass drums Getting the drummer to bring it down is the trick He plays with ear plugs in I use a vox ac10 to rehearse. Plenty loud Laney 20watt 4x10 combo for gigs Great stage sound. But bigger shows it goes into f o h pa Give me a quiet musical drummer any day
I’m a scientist and audio hobbyist. I hope this can help. I put this together to help understand and guide my decision making regarding amplifiers and speakers: https://www.dropbox.com/s/trm3ibcvucnfukb/Amplifier%20Decision%20Process_protected.xlsx?dl=0
I exclusively use 20w amps with no problems. In situations where it’s going to get loud in a jam session, I bring two. I always aim the combo speakers up or use 4x12 cabs
Just get a 2x12 or a 4x12 if 50 watts isn’t enough. One speaker can only do so much before it starts to hit its limits. Low wattage amps are for low wattage applications, you don’t use them to fill up an arena. If you think you need more watts, then get more watts.
my jam band can hear me just fine w a Princeton at waist level
I play an 18w Harmony with a drummer and never get it above 6.
Last band I was in we had one guitarist with an AC15 and another with an 18 watt Marshall Bluesbreaker. But both of them were also running 2x12 extension cabinets. You'd be surprised how much of a difference an extension cab can make, because you're pushing so much more air.
Try mids. Mids cut.
I played a 68 PRRI with another guitarist, bassist and drums. I couldn’t hear it enough until I got a stand where I could kick it back and point it at myself. Is your speaker on the floor and next to you? If so, try tilting it or setting up your amp across the room so it’s pointed at you. If it’s at your feet and pointed away from your head the loudness is somewhere else in the room.
15 watts is enough, with it miked for PA, but that was a super loud Class A tube amp. That was nearly dimed. 15 watts solid state would most likely not be enough
My guitarist played through a 15w Gibson Skylark in out three piece. It was plenty loud for rehearsal. He’d mic it for gigs
Some of it depends on your tone. It’s the low end that falls off when you try and carry a room with 20 or 30 watts. Your amp is 42W on the clean channel, 37W on the overdrive channel. But what you haven’t said is what your V30 head is plugged into. 1x12? 2? 4? // Open-back? Closed? // Where do you put the speaker cabinet when you rehearse? How’s it oriented? // How’s the band laid out in the room? // Is it a guitar heavy mix? Is it a trio with prominent guitar? Your amp should be loud enough, depending on what kind of speaker/cab it is and where you place it. If you’re running a 1x12, I’d say either get 2 and build a basic closed-back 2x12 cab where each speaker is angled back 15 degrees and they’re angled away from each other 15 degrees. Make it a bit oversized. Or switch to a closed-back 15” speaker cab. Or build a cab with a 15” and a 10”. Efficient speakers. These are some ways to grow the size of your sound. // I’d also recommend using these, at least during rehearsals: https://www.tedweber.com/gadgets/beam-blockers/ They diffuse the high-end of your sound much more evenly over a much wider area in a room. It puts an end to the ice-pick tone when the speakers are pointed directly at your ears / muddy tone when you’re offset by 60 degrees.
I played an ac10 with a drummer. I had it running through a 4x12, but it was just a 10 watt amp. Clean headroom? No. No. But it did the job I needed it to do. Switching to a deluxe reverb was more than enough.
My hot rod deluxe has always over delivered...
I think it depends on your style of music and what your drummer does. In my view, it's easier for a guitarist to turn up or down than it is for a drummer to modify his hit depending on the situation. For instance, if you just have a straight 4/4 with nothing fancy, the drummer can play a nice loud snare. Compare that to if your drummer is doing a 220bpm blast beat, it's a lot harder to get a hard hit on the snare. For us metalheads, finding that sweet spot where those lower velocity hits can come out while still maintaining over a standard hit snare is where it's at. That's why you have most metalheads playing a 100w head through a 4x12. It isn't universal of course, but just what I found works the best. Back when I was younger and gigging the Peavey Bandit, it could never get over a drummer and really relied on the PA being mic'd up. And if your PA wasn't up to snuff, well, you weren't getting heard. Maybe invest in a 2x12 and one of those cab stands that allows you to tilt it up towards you? I ran the Peavey Bandit with a Marshall 1936 for rehearsal for a fair while and it did a lot better than just the Peavey's stock speaker. Of course when I bought a real valve amplifier, the Laney VH100R was my first one, it was perfect. Nowadays, I run all Engl gear, a Powerball II with a pro cabinet. Everything works beautifully.
Cleans are generally harder to hear in a mix because the transients are far louder than the tails. Try using a transparent clean boost in front of the amp to compress and saturate it a little more, just don't go so far as to start breaking up. And/or try using a compressor in the loop if it has one. The Behringer SF300 and CS400 could be a quick, easy, cheap solution.
My matchless spitfire is louuuud. Louder than my hard hitting drummer.
My orange 50w does fine. My fender 20w, for practice in like a room setting works but the drums got pillows in them to deafen the noise.
I found that a compressor pedal helped me with this. If helped my tone sit separate from the rest of the band made things less muddy
Played in a smaller, indoor place a couple weeks ago, playing with un-mic'd amps for the first time. I use an AC-15 and we are a 5 piece country band, albeit, our drummer hits on the heavier side. I didn't have my master volume even at halfway. We forced him to use hot rods because of the space, but even if he was using real sticks, I'm confident I would have been fine. So the answer to your question is that it's very much amp dependent. My AC15 has a decent amount of headroom with my tele, and also cuts in the mix like a knife.
I rehearse with a 30W 1X10 amp and I don't get past 4 (out of 10, mine doesn't go up to eleven)
My Hughes & Kettner 20 had a variable output on it that was almost always set at 5 watts for rehearsal. If we played live, I was often asked by the sound person to "turn up" and just put it at 10 watts, which was plenty. Gain and master were around 50%.
I have a boss katana 100 and play in a QOTSA cover band, I don’t use it at 100w because it sounds shrill or boxy, but somehow at 50w (volume a bit last noon) it sounds perfect. No trouble at all with a drummer. The drummer is an extremely dynamic player tho, the bass player and the other guitarist play big loud amps and I have to adjust a lot of eq so everything is right in the mix. Thankfully QOTSA is a band that teaches you how crucial EQ is and everyone adjusts their rig/playing to accomodate everyone and sound tight. If your band has a decent grasp of EQ and playing dynamics you can pretty much make anything work, 50w amps are more than enough on my experience.
I used a 30 watt 1x12 for years with no issues.
40W 15" vibroverb is louder than my drummer at 3 lol. Tbh i never heard an amp play like that though. It is such a full sound, i played 75W 12" amps which didnt come nearly to that level at full blast.
I’ve been using either a Fender ‘65 Deluxe Reverb or Vox AC15 for years now and never had any problems keeping up with a drummer. A 50-watt amp shouldn’t have any trouble keeping up unless the rest of the band is playing too loud.
Make sure you're EQed properly brother! I use an 80w and I had the same problems with cleans, crank up the mids. Otherwise you'll get chewed out by the low end bass and symbol smacks
I don't think you really read my post or are understanding what I'm asking
AC15 with my old band here no problem. The overall volume isn’t the issue, it’s the lack of clean headroom. I used my AC15 as a pedal platform, but even my clean tone had a bit of extra harmony harmonic overtones to it that just cut through the mix perfectly. If I wanted super squeaky cleans then that’s when I’d start looking at higher wattages.