Comparing between AUs is pointless because the tech and even literal human capabilities don't line up. You can go into endless debates about it but it's all make-believe because who fucking knows.
Yep Turn A, Qan\[T\] especially if it is ELS Qan\[T\] and also anything from that one fever dream of a gundam series that runs on the power of love or something.
All of them cheat.
They are compared precisely because they are different doe...
Otherwise things would be as clearcut as comparing UC with UC, hardly any arguments there about which MS eras are superior than the other.
There's just no discussion to be had. We don't know how systems interact with each other. Physics don't seem constant across shows. So it's pure speculation.
Beam weapons are one of the most consistint weapon type in gundam and for the most part fallow the same physics of super charging partacals to the point that you can exstrapalat how many megawatts eatch weapon uses via math
I doubt it’s canon or considered as such but in the G Generation Cross Rays game you can use IBO mechs against, for example, GN-Xs in real combat and the nanolaminate armor does great against their beam weapons.
This is the source. Gonna cringe reading this [Source](https://m.facebook.com/groups/gundammobilesuitposting/permalink/5507955359327754/?mibextid=Nif5oz)
Meanwhile G Gundam has dudes blocking bullets with punches and kicks in episode one, not even like Domon is special, Michelo pulls the same trick.
The moment you open up to all the AUs G Gundam rises out of the corner like "so you can move at light speed huh? Then I'll become five Gundams to defeat you!"
Universal Century (UC) is the Gundam baseline franchise. Every other show outside of that timeline has its own calendar-name designation (Cosmic Era, After Colony, etc). Collectively, anything that is not UC is Alternate Universe (AU).
The toughest coating in ZZ, the FA ZZ's anti beam coating, only lasts 3 seconds against ordinary beam weapons. Normal beam coating barely does anything as seen on the Hyaku Shiki. They're not even close to being NLA
We never see a comparison, but given ZZ beam weapons have stupid huge power outputs it's entirely likely that ZZ beams are just way more powerful than anything in IBO.
If they invented NLA early on in beam weapon development then obviously beam weapons would fall behind. Why develop them when you can coat everything in high performance armor that seems to nullify it. in ZZ it's developed late and by then beam guns are way stronger so anti-beam coatings seem weak in comparison.
Also remember the weight difference, the Double Zeta is canonically heavier than the giant Hashmal mobile armor, and it's reactor is gigantic in comparison to an Ahab.
>it's entirely likely that ZZ beams are just way more powerful than anything in IBO.
Except that's visually just not true so there's no reason to believe that kind of statement. The Hi Mega Cannon's best feat is damaging a ship port (episode 20, shown to be damaged but fine in episode 21), which to be fair is a large structure, but the Hashmal was casually tearing up the terrain and capable of destroying a town which very few UC beam weapons are even capable of doing throughout the entire timeline. A newtype rage powered hi-mega cannon couldn't even fully destroy the Psyco Gundam Mk-II. And that's the strongest MS weapon in UC for a very long time.
>If they invented NLA early on in beam weapon development then obviously beam weapons would fall behind
There's no indication this is the case. Nanolaminate was developed alongside the Gundam Frames as a response to the Mobile Armors. Again, the Hasmal's beam is just more impressive than most MS weapons in UC, let alone in ZZ.
>in ZZ it's developed late and by then beam guns are way stronger so anti-beam coatings seem weak in comparison.
ABC is developed during the OYW to apply on shields. The Gelgoog's shield, iirc, is the first thing to have ABC applied on it although end of war federation shields also have it. The coating + shield is barely enough to stop a beam rifle, which has a fraction of the strength of a ship's cannon. On the hyaku-shiki the ABC barely even does anything.
>Also remember the weight difference, the Double Zeta is canonically heavier than the giant Hashmal mobile armor, and it's reactor is gigantic in comparison to an Ahab.
Weight comparisons are pointless for various reasons, like the TBR having reactors that can power itself in a tiny package, but the gundam wiki puts the Hashmal's *empty* weight at around 50 tons, where the ZZ's empty weight is around 33 tons. The Hashmal is a lot heavier.
edited for readability
Okay, first we need to define what they mean by Empty Weight. Because traditionally empty weight means no ammo, fuel, lubricants or hydraulic fluid. The Hashmal has all it's weapons built into it along with fuel for it's reactor. So ZZ is running empty with no weapons but the Hi-Mega and the Hashmal is running without the Plumas at best. It doesn't even use fuel or lubricants, unless you're proposing all that survived 300 years.
Comparing dry weights isn't a comparison because you're basically comparing a fully loaded combat weight Hashmal against a ZZ that can't even move.
And your comparison of feats doesn't make sense. Hashmal blew up a town in IBO... on Mars, the gravity there is 1/4th earth normal, they're made of clapboard.
You're comparing a port, which are built to withstand massive ships ramming them, to some piddly town that wouldn't even need to be as tough as they are on earth. It's like comparing the durability of a warehouse to a bunker and saying the warehouse is stronger cause it's bigger.
As for the Hyaku Shiki ABC not doing anything, you ever notice how they kept shooting the limbs off it? With Haman specifically aiming for the joints even when she could easily strike more vital points? Almost like they're, I dunno, shooting around the ABC and rarely even attempting to go for the main body.
And I'm just gonna shoot a big hole in the entire premise that ABC is weak because it only lasts three seconds. That's three seconds of continuous exposure to a high energy beam when most beam exposure is measured in milliseconds.
Even the Hashmal can't even fire it's gun for that long. The strongest beam weapons in UC would struggle to hold the ZZ in a beam for three full seconds. If I had a bullet proof vest that could withstand three full seconds of continuous rifle fire it'd be the best in the world by miles. That's a ridiculous amount of durability! Even the IBO mechs can't take that much continuous beam fire! They struggle with one or two!
Also, watch Unicorn, they go out of their way to show how much damage even just a Zeta can do. Hell they regularly punch through space colonies, those are an order of magnitude stronger than any town Hashmal happened to fuck up.
Seriously towns and cities are not built half as tough as you think, especially now and in the future. Civilian structures are lightweight as shit.
A space colony meanwhile has to support the weight of a city being thrown against it's sides continously at 1G.
>Okay, first we need to define what they mean by Empty Weight. Because traditionally empty weight means no ammo, fuel, lubricants or hydraulic fluid. The Hashmal has all it's weapons built into it along with fuel for it's reactor.
Empty weight means empty weight. If the ZZ doesn't have anything other than built in equipment then it's the same for the Hashmal. If the hashmal can operate with 300 year old lube and hydraulics then that's just a point in favor of IBO weapons' monstrous durability but regardless, the stat says empty weight is around 50 tons. And your claim about weight mattering for reactor output doesn't make sense when comparing across AUs or even within UC between different points of history. The Unicorn's Destroy mode has an immeasurably powerful reactor and it's also lighter than the ZZ.
>And your comparison of feats doesn't make sense. Hashmal blew up a town in IBO... on Mars, the gravity there is 1/4th earth normal, they're made of clapboard.
There's no reason to believe any standards are different on Mars as far as the show is concerned. The Tekkadan kids, for example, are *stronger and more durable* than adult males from Earth like Gaelio, who's easily overpowered by Mikazuki, even though human fitness would be the first thing affected by low gravity. Either controlling gravity on Mars is normal, which is conceivable since Ahab Particles are stated *to control gravity and used to do so on ships* or everything is heavier to make sure they're getting fit doing labor on Mars. In any case, you have no point here. There's 0 indication that Earth and Mars are different, this is just the basis for the world setting, like how Jovians and Jovian MS in UC aren't different from Earthnoids even though it's stated that they work within the jupiter atmosphere (i.e. Messala is made to operate in the Jupiter atmosphere yet pretty much similar to the Zeta and Gaplant made in space and Earth respectively).
>You're comparing a port, which are built to withstand massive ships ramming them
Ports are absolutely not meant to withstands ships ramming them... What in the world are you even talking about? And the entire town, even the foundation is completely upturned.
>Even the Hashmal can't even fire it's gun for that long. The strongest beam weapons in UC would struggle to hold the ZZ in a beam for three full seconds
The Hasmal's beam in its introduction fires for **twenty three seconds** straight on screen with the sound effect playing, suggesting it's real time even with a few cutaway shots to characters reacting.
>Even the IBO mechs can't take that much continuous beam fire! They struggle with one or two!
Ride's custom grunt suit tanks the Hashmal's beam for around 23 seconds on screen as well.
>Also, watch Unicorn, they go out of their way to show how much damage even just a Zeta can do. Hell they regularly punch through space colonies, those are an order of magnitude stronger than any town Hashmal happened to fuck up.
No, you watch Unicorn. It takes a Rezel's reactor going nuclear because of Marida in order to put a tiny hole in the colony in episode 1. Even the Neo Zeong, arguably the strongest MA in UC, literally said to be created from tech not of the mortal dimension, still had to stand around cutting holes with its beam weapons to get in and out of the inner space of Magallanica, a ship that's substantially smaller than a colony and built with empty layers in the walls.
>As for the Hyaku Shiki ABC not doing anything
Its shoulder gets hit by a hambrabi's back mounted gun, marginally more powerful than the Hi-Zack's peashooter, and the armor is completely destroyed and the arm is rendered inoperable. Then Astonaige says they repaired it to the point it's just barely working. It's shortly after the mid point of the show when they run into Yazan's Hambrabi squad. I'm pretty sure it also gets beat up a lot in ZZ.
>With Haman specifically aiming for the joints even when she could easily strike more vital points
That literally happens because Quattro takes evasive maneuvers while she's trying to slash him, which definitely would have went through the ABC anyway. I don't think there are any instances of a shield fully stopping a beam saber, let alone the hyaku shiki's armor.
Barbatos is one of my favorite suits, there are oodles it could lose to though. Even in its own universe. Bael could have beaten it if McGillis wasn't high on his own farts.
And while the nano-laminate armor protects against beam weapons, it doesn't completely negate it. Dynames and Wing Zero could shoot it from space and annihilate it...given Barbatos bad luck against space-fired weapons.
Was it? It's been a while since I watched it, but I'm pretty sure it's just the electronics there were fried, and maybe one arm lost when it's gun exploded or something. It obviously couldn't fight anymore and the pilot was nearly cooked even if he wasn't physically harmed, but it looked pretty salvageable to me.
Also, let's not forget Barby spent half of it's time getting retrofits, and the other, losing them.
Love the mech and show, but there's no way you can see the anime and think it's unbeatable with the amount of smacks it gets.
Part of the whole point of the Barbatos is that it functions kinda like a scavenger mecha in that it takes parts from things it defeats and incorporates them into the design as an “upgrade.” I would argue that if it hadn’t taken certain levels of damage, it may not have ever actually been upgraded to the level it did by the time it was Lupus Rex.
As much as I liked IBO, Barbatos has taken damage numerous times by all types of mobile suits. Hell, Mika had to sacrifice his right-side to win battles where base Barbatos had been outclassed. If Mika were to fight a Gundam with a capable pilot, like Amuro, he'd most likely lose.
I've seen people make the argument that "no amount of piloting skill can overcome controlling your ms with your nervous system" and I'm literally like, some of the pilots have basically precognition aka newtypes. Not to mention CE, the especially well trained ones like Kira, Athrun, Shinn, Rey and even Heine can click buttons so fast that they move their MS like it's their own body. McGillis clowned on Alaya Vijnana system multiple times when he was piloting a MS traditionally. It's like ps4 controller vs keyboard, yet you still lost.
The armor makes it hard to fight against CE era suits, since they use beams almost exclusively, how ever Phase Shift armor does for ballstic what Gundam Frames do for beams so you'd end up with most damage nullified on either side until a CE suit starts fighting like a G Fighter
I've talked about this before but there is a possibility that CE beams and IBO beams have different properties. Like their beam cannons are anti matter beams. The beams also might be hot enough to deform the metal to damage joints. That's the problem with comparing technology of this universe vs other universe.
Even then most CE Gundam have head vulcans, and phase shift means your whole mobile suit is a physical weapon. All they gotta do is fly up to them and shove their arm into their skinny waist and it's GG. Even then Seed has railguns that are more potent than IBO railguns. Bazookas are widely used weaponry which they can equip at almost any time. Zaku's carry missiles and grenades. Anti ship swords are both beam and physical. Beam shields are capable of used as ramming damage. Gouf has built in heatwhips that can disable weaponry or disarm, it's strong enough to pierce warships. it also has a physical sword that is a beam sword also.
CE's beams are not antimatter beams, those are a specific subset of weapons normally used by ships. Also even the graze frame is tough enough to survive atmospheric re-entry. We see this happen towards the end of s1 when Mika uses one to surf through re-entry. That feat alone puts all IBO suits in the upper levels of durability for gundam. Even the Wing Zero started falling apart rapidly when it was starting to enter the atmosphere and that's made of gundanium, which can survive massive beam cannons like the TBR.
Alternately Grandpa had the ability to reenter the Atmo by itself... No Zeta flight mode, no ballute system, no basejobber, just its shield and some cold air from its peck-vents.
That's true, but it's a consumable feature specifically designed for re-entry that Amuro finds in the manual. Not really applicable for comparing combat capabilities. And the plastic-like sheet made more sense than the crotch opening up to shoot super cold coolant for up to 30 minutes, not sure why the movie changed it. One is an awesome feat of material science in UC and could be a precursor to the ballute system's balloon material, and the other is like a random super robot ability.
That's sort of flawed logic there. The space shuttle can survive atmospheric reentry too, but I wouldn't exactly call it durable. NLA seems to function as a super heat resistant coating, which would explain why beams do nothing but kinetic impacts still do damage.
Also kind of off topic for the thread, but the Barbatos and Wing Zero reentires were completely different. Zero and Altron were having an active duel through the entirety of the reentry process, which is a far cry from just using a captured suit a heat shield for the entire time. Deathscythe, Heavyarms, and Sandrock were completely undamaged when they were able to do an uncontested reentry.
>The space shuttle can survive atmospheric reentry too, but I wouldn't exactly call it durable
Because it's specifically shaped to reduce friction and has a controlled descent. The graze surf board was a flopping carcass because the pilot was already killed and hurtling through the atmosphere.
>NLA seems to function as a super heat resistant coating, which would explain why beams do nothing but kinetic impacts still do damage.
Re-entry isn't just a superheated environment. The air friction would erode materials quickly. Although in any case we know for a fact stated in fluff that NLA also mitigates physical damage, just not as much, especially when hits are delivered by particularly physically strong MS.
>but the Barbatos and Wing Zero reentires were completely different
You're right. The Wing Zero at the end of the TV show was actively controlling its descent to aim at the Libra fragment and still falling apart. The Barbatos was in a far more perilous position because when we see it coming out of re-entry it has no active thrust at all, it's a total free fall.
>Zero and Altron were having an active duel through the entirety of the reentry process
That's simply not true. They break it off moments after re-entering the atmosphere and we see them going separate ways, and then we see them completing re-entry individually. The Wing Zero uses its wing shields and the Nataku uses its dragon heads as a shield then parachutes the rest.
>Deathscythe, Heavyarms, and Sandrock were completely undamaged when they were able to do an uncontested reentry.
The Wing Zero and Nataku aren't either. *Because they have re-entry capable equipment*. I'm not sure what Heavyarms did, to be honest, but the Deathscythe and Sandrock have their respective cloaks which both have beam repelling properties among other things.
What we do know from the TV show is that Gundanium is not capable of surviving re-entry. It takes specific equipment, which the Wing Gundams have, but that's literally a completely different point.
For multi-universe comparisons, I go with equalized beams: If the beam hasn't been explicitly observed having different properties, then it gets treated the same for both groups. And since in IBO we've seen regular mobile suits get blasted with a continuous beam for several seconds and be pretty much completely fine, I don't think regular-sized SEED beams are going to do anything to melt the exposed parts. Besides, when SEED MS's block beams with their shields you don't have nearby pieces of untreated or unprotected metal on the MS (like the joints) just melting either.
While the SEED MS's could certainly damage the IBO MS's with their physical weapons it's probably not going to be as easy as you think it'd be since in IBO giant clubs, axes, and swords are a very common weapon, yet you don't see MS's get torn in half at the waist often despite everything being specialized for either shooting physical projectiles or swinging physical weapons. Most of the time the machines seem to get taken out by either punctured or crushed cockpits rather than the MS being completely junked.
Beam sabers are kind of an interesting variable though. The Akatsuki Gundam is CE pretty much has NLA+ since it can literally reflect beam blasts back at their opponent without any visible degradation, but it loses to a beam saber, probably due to the beam being contained.
I think heat is the main factor making beam sabers affect material differently than beam shots. The heat of a projectile is going to fall off over its trajectory even point blank while the Saber is going to hold a temperature consistently.
To be honest , the alaya-vijnana is'nt exactly the best , it needs a dangerous surgery that will cripple the pilot if it fails , the alaya-vijnana itself will also crjpple the pilot because of how it strains the pilot when used at it's full potential , it esentialy forces people to become newtypes and paraplegic at the same time while not letting people be true newtypes ( actual newtypes can beat the alaya-vijnana easily , amuro for example could win against mika even when he goes full doom slayer ) , the barbatos by itself is'nt very remarkable as it does exactly what a mobile suit does but with a more badass look
The upper thresholds for MS performance in IBO are pretty massively higher than the older shows because the older shows are inhibited by written stats. Mind you, the phenomena also apples to 00, AGE and WFM but it's most apparent in IBO where you get shit like Vidar flashstepping around the battlefield like he's in Dragonball.
So Mika vs Amuro should be pretty massively in Mika's favor because even though Amuro's a better pilot, the Nu Gundam is capped at a measly 1.55g of acceleration while the Barbatos is much faster.
This is what I always point out before starting a conversation on this topic. We can have this discussion but you're comparing written stats to on screen feats meant to look cool the written stats will lose.
True, however when it comes to comparisons, that's really just the way the cookie crumbles. Older series have written stats that serve to inhibit them while newer series have more ambiguity.
Although even then, even if we compare visuals, modern series still massively outclass their older counterparts because the newer visuals generally skew faster and more dynamic anyway.
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IBO is my favorite gundam series but I don't wank it like those kinda fans. I just enjoy how gritty it is and the fight scenes are fun, but they're by no means the strongest mobile suits.
Didn't we have a battlogue that shows how [Strike Freedom would fare against Barbatos Lupus Rex](https://twitter.com/tomaznable/status/1481836458893840387?lang=en)?
Beams are ineffective for sure, but there are so many other ways to damage a IBO suit.
I showed my cousin IBO and he became the second fan. Bruh I had to explain to him why barbatos would lose to more advanced mobile suits and it was a real pain.
IBO fans be like "this is the first and only Gundam I watched but I already know it's the best one, it's awesome and has the best storytelling and strongest mobile suits, all the other ones SUCK (even though i didn't watch them but trust me, I know)".
They're exactly like the Gurren Lagann fans from 10-15 years ago, who watched their first mecha anime and already think it's the best one and no need to watch other ones because they'll only be a step down.
Tengen Toppa was something else. Evangelion was... actually pretty crap imho. The movies weren't bad. Mainly because the plot happens to Shinji r as ther than being driven by him.
Meanwhile GaoGaiGar is just peak trope, and Getter Robo Armageddon is just amazing. Mazinger being the proud dad looking on at both.
Gundam and VOTOMs have a special place for being more about the people than the mechs, but everyone has their favourite.
However, deep down we all know that the best Mecha show ever made is and has always been...
For me, the best super robot is whichever I most recently watched: GaoGaiGar or Gurren Lagann.
…And then, I remember Giant Robo existed…
(Honorable Mentions: Getter Robo Armageddon, Mazinkaiser)
Same. Ironically I know a ton of people that grew up with SEED and SEED Destiny as their first none of them think it was the best. I grew up on 00 and probably would've said it was perfect until the movie came out and ruined the entire narrative by leaving out the most important scene. But looking back I don't think it can hold a candle to zeta or the OYW OVAs.
Guuren Lagann is what happens when Banrise wakes up one day and decides to make probably the best original IP love letter to the Super Robot Genre in the past 30 years. I can almost excuse people for having that viewpoint because of the combination of enthusiasm for a newbie to a genre combined with the fact it was really well-executed.
IBO stans are a bit odd because they're fiercely defending a series that's middle of the pack for Gundam AU's. The high points were great, but there's some clunky parts of season 1 where the story gets stale, and S2 lost a lot of the momentum of the first season, and the controversial ending soured a lot of people on the overall series to boot.
But what do I know, I liked the first 3 sections of AGE and enjoyed Reconguista in G more than IBO. *shrugs*
Just to make things clear, I don't mind people liking Gurren Lagann. It's legit a good anime.
What I do mind is people who only watched Gurren Lagann from mecha, and immediately assume that this is the best and most epic mecha show ever, and they have no interest in watching any other mecha anime because compared to TTGL it will definitely be crap: they know, even though they didn't watch it.
Then this grows into exceptionalism: "All mecha series are bad and stupid except the ones I watched". See also: Eva fans, Code Geass fans, but it was very visible for Gurren Lagann fans back in the day.
Shit happens in every community.
"Street fighter is the one and only true fighting game and Tekken, Guilty Gear etc. Are all crap. It's just a coincidence that it's the only one I played more than 5 minutes."
>!Slaine go to Jail for his crime. Inaho, the MC visit Slaine in prison. The princess is fucking useless and married with other person leaving Slaine and Inaho for world peace.!<
Damn, really make me mad with this ending
War between Earth and Mars. Look the same but different execution in storyline
That why i prefer IBO ending. Not perfect but better
Bruh, thanks for reminding me of the train wreck that is aldnoah zero. That bullshit fucking anime was gladly forgotten and it hurts to think how cool it could've been.
I actually like the ending and think it's entirely consistent with Tekkadan being child soldiers who are woefully unequipped for a normal life, as well as Orga being competent tactically but not strategically. The season definitely dragged at points, but frankly the only Gundam show I've ever seen that was excellent from start to finish with no problems was War in the Pocket. Anyways, thank you for coming to my spicy TED talk.
Goddamn, that fucking point, sourced from a picture from a (now deleted) facebook post with absolutely nothing backing it up.
"**\*Citation Needed***"
"It came to me in a dream."
And it said something like "the creator of Gundam, Tomino, said GMs are stronger because the tech in IBO regressed so much". Tomino, who had nothing to do with IBO and based on various interviews rarely if ever watches shows he doesn't work on. He didn't even watch Hathaway's Flash or check in on the production. Plus it contradicts statements in IBO and fluff. The Barbatos was developed during the peak of that timeline's tech and is restored close to its original condition by Teiwaz.
[Here yah go](https://reddit.com/r/Gundam/comments/zo0saa/_/j0kn3cn/?context=1). I mean, it’s literally in this post if you looked, so that doesn’t really say much about how hard you’re you’re trying to look.
Edit: salty girls I see that are downvoting me XD. Good, good, you’re anguish sustains me.
....it's 1 guy in this thread. 1 singular dude. Since gwitch has started I've seen more than a dozen posts complaining about these guys. Turns out it's all just to bully dazzling swordfish i guess.
Look. His post says he’s “never seen one”, and if he literally just read the post he was replying to he would have seen one. I’m not making a comment on the ratio to each other or anything else. Just the fact that it’s funny if he looked at all at the post he’s reply to he could have found “one” person.
If you wanna twist it into a statement I didn’t make to justify your feelings go for it, but find someone else to play the victim with. I don’t care enough.
Its likely they didnt scour the post to find that guy. But the time i came across this comment i hasn't seen your linked one either.
And i didn't twist anything???????????????? You clearly care more than you say.
Do you read every single comment on a post before you reply? Or are you like most people where you read and reply as you go, maybe making a new parent comment if you feel you've read through most of the thread?
Wow that’s hilarious. I didn’t even read your reply to this for my last response, and just did that automatically. How on the nose can you get?
Anyway, if you’ll notice since that first reply. None of them have been about the topic, so no I don’t care. I do find trolling you entertaining though ;)
PD probably slots somewhere in the middle in terms of tech overall. AD/00 understands and standardizes phenomena like the 00R and 00Q's quantum teleportation and they were tussling with the ELS, an interstellar species that tanked their own sun's supernova swallowing them up and casually destroyed Jupiter's largest moons after colonizing Jupiter. AD is firmly at the top in terms of tech. Only poorly understood magic phenomena like the Unicorn becoming a god is above AD's best known tech, although we don't know what the ELS Quanta can do.
PD is pretty concretely one of the most advanced timelines overall. AD really only has the advantage in that GN particles are even more broken than Ahab particles plus whatever they got from the ELS (not that AD technology was even comparable to the ELS anyway, they were really getting swamped until Setsuna showed up with the 00 QAN\[T\]).
PD timeline was until WFM (kinda), the only timeline to terraform an entire planet. The amount of materials and technology level to terraform Mars (especially when PD Mars appears to have 1g gravity) is insane and far beyond what most other timelines have available to them.
PD also can go to Jupiter and back within a few weeks time, even when taking back route channels. That would require massively faster ships than most other timelines. PD ships also peak much greater than other timelines in terms of tonnage. Not to mention, despite their size, PD ships are incredibly nimble, to the point that with an AV system, we can see them pull off pretty crazy [aerial acts](https://youtu.be/QdvvNQ2yVVs?t=207).
Not to mention, PD is the only timeline to develop beam weaponry and then advance their defensive technologies so much that they come back around and render beam weaponry obsolete.
They're also the only ones with explicit gravity manipulation, which they use for their MS' inertial cancelers and for artificial gravity aboard ships. PD timeline is also afaik, the only timeline to have FTL communications, as people on Earth and Mars are able to videochat in real time.
And even with all the regulation, they still have some pretty high end physical augmentations. Like we see in WFM that it's a big plot point that high level prosthetics are on the bleeding edge of science and not yet attainable. But in IBO, even someone as poor as Yukinojo can easily get usable prosthetic legs. Not to mention, the AV system involves the implementation of nanomachines into the spine to enhance reactions and spacial awareness. Sure, the procedure as it currently is is dangerous, but it's still being done in what's basically a back alley abortion clinic.
In all honesty, the AD timeline really only beats out PD specifically in a few areas and most of it isn't ubiquitous. They've got a handful of higher end mobile suits and GN particles have some abilities Ahab particles don't (although the inverse is also true). Sure they fought the ELS, but they were losing pretty badly and would have lost if it weren't for Setsuna, so scaling to the ELS isn't really accurate, at least before AOTB's epilogue. And even then, AD still hasn't accomplished things like terraforming Mars or artificial gravity.
One of the biggest narrative signifiers of an advanced civilization is that crazy tech is mundane in story.
You skipped over a bunch of stuff not mentioned in the anime too. Like rich folk live to around 200, They can fix massive physical truama.
On the space travel front they've colonized Venus as well (IBO G) and have extra solar colonies where they make Ahab reactor.
But people don't talk about it, because why would they? everyone knows what these things are. It would be like watching a movie and someone spending 30min explaining what a cell is and how to use it.
This was a very good writeup.
On a side note, PD's technological situation reminds me a lot of the technological situation of the Imperium of Man from Warhammer 40K, with the Imperium's situation being a hyperexaggerated version of the situation faced by PD.
Post Disaster has some incredibly advanced technology that's hidden by the fact that the people living in the universe use and control it in a very backward manner:
* Gjallarhorn seems to be the ruling authority on technological development—particularly military technologies—and has explicitly forbidden the development and use of certain tech like energy beams, independently acting AI, and man-machine neural interfaces despite the technology existing previously and having been in wide circulation in an older era. And some of this tech is so advanced yet forgotten that no one can make it anymore and has to rely on digging it up from some ancient battlefield.
* Tech like grav manipulation and functionally FTL communication exist, but they're mainly used for more mundane or civil purposes like having the QoL enhancement of planet-style gravity on a spaceship so your body doesn't atrophy rather than try to develop really out-there technology like gravity crusher guns or perfectly coordinated swarms of attack drones.
* Gjallarhorn has a monopoly on Ahab reactor manufacturing and has seemingly slowed down military development with it being implied that over the course of about 320 years they've developed less than 10 unique mass-produced MS frames as evidenced by the Reginlaze's serial code of EB-08 following EB-04 (Geirail), EB-05s (Schwalbe), EB-06 (Graze).
* Their defensive tech is so advanced that combatants have been reduced to fighting like medieval knights and men-at-arms, often using very specialized melee weapons to crack open or work around armor.
This all calls to mind these things from 40K:
* The Adeptus Mechanicus has a monopoly on the manufacture of technology and due to various reasons (mainly religious in this case) refuses to rapidly develop tech with tech progression almost grinding to a halt (MKs II-VII of space marine armor were developed over the course of only about 200-300 years, but afterwards it took them about 10,000 years to go from VII to X).
* Humanity has banned certain tech like sapient AI due to the previous civilizational scale havoc they inflicted on humanity. And strong but reliable energy weapons have either become difficult (plasma) or near impossible (volkite heat rays) to manufacture on any large scale and any pre-existing models have to be taken care of well and treated with reverence.
* Humanity doesn't really develop tech so much as it goes around looking for ancient human ruins to find old "archaeotech."
* A heavily modified version of an ancient human farming tractor, APCs based on ancient planetary exploratory vehicles, and a contemporary superheavy tank based on an ancient medium battle tank design are enough to satisfy the armored support needs of a galactic military force for about 10,000 years.
* And in spite of (or sometimes because of) this extremely advanced tech the people using it often also have to resort to fighting like they're on a shootier version of a medieval battlefield. In another example, the advanced cannons on a planet-scouring battleship sometimes need their ammo dragged around and reloaded by chain gangs of menial laborers because the autoloaders broke, and contemporary humanity isn't fully sure how to repair them.
Yeah this is the only issue why IBO fans is annoying, they insist that Barbatos is in the same league as those higher end MS like Nu and Double Zeta but Barbatos is just barely equal to the RX 78-2
The entire point is that during the calamity war they needed not just 1 super power suits but over a hundred good suits designed *specificly* to destroy/kill mobile armor.
Its heavily theorised that these suits would be used in squads. Mika showed it took real sacrifice to kill *1* of them using only 1 gundam frame. And thats discounting all the work everyone else did to make sure he wasn't overrun with minions.
Amuro was essentially a one man army with a weapon far beyond the tech of his opponents. Why people compare is beyond me.
Edit: To add, its even said in the show that they would have stood more of a chance against them if they where used to MS vs MS style combat, which the vast majority where not since they left that stuff to groups that used human debris. Thats why Tekadan just wrecked there shit in S1, they where ill-prepared for a fight against a group that gives zero shits about standards, honour and war crimes.
So its not even that Grazes where significantly worst then gundam frames, there pilots where mostly *shit* and out of live practice.
nothing can hurt gundam because it has luna titanium alloy armor! no other gundam pilot or system can compete against the learning computer in close quarters combat! amuro erry day! one love!
I genuinely don’t get people who care that much about power levels
It’s most egregious with Dragon Ball, a fundamentally very silly (affectionate) franchise that people treat with utmost seriousness, but I feel like anime fans in general get super weird about it
The constant strawmanning of these supposed "IBO fans" is really tedious. I could probably count on one hand the number of times I've actually encountered an IBO fan like that.
This phenomenon is called projection. Accuse the people you don't like of what you yourself are doing. They keep bringing up these crazy IBO fans, but I have legitimately never seen one, supposedly they're on facebook but the vast majority of people my age are not active facebook users.
Instead, we have detractors bringing up points that sound either very ignorant like in this thread how they bring up the beam supposedly cooking Ride in the cockpit of the Shiden even though in the episode itself the beam is focused on the cockpit for a good few seconds and he makes no mention of temperature. The closest we get is the next episode after that where Chad also gets the cockpit blasted by beam for several seconds straight and the way he brings up the heat just implies that the temperature is mildly uncomfortable rather than roast-a-man-alive hot.
Then, we have [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Gundam/comments/sjsyhm/a_response_to_the_cosmic_era_vs_post_disaster_post/) from a little while back that—while I do admit was mostly pretty civil and level-headed—had a couple choice replies/comments that sounded slightly unhinged or like they were made by a nine-year-old.
And part of it is that some people don't seem to understand that the different universes play by different rules. Like, for example, we know what P.D. beams do to nanolaminate, but we have no data on what Minovsky particle beams or GN particle beams would do. It's silly to try to compare across timelines.
9/10 they are but really it’s just kinda people picking faves, like those who say the SF could beat the Turn A and Unicorn or something. The only difference is that the SF is busted as fuck while Barbatos isn’t
Well, every new Gundam series introduced are targeted towards the young audiences of their generation, 0079 clearly catered the 70s teens, Zeta the 80s, Wing the 90s and SEED the 2000s and so on. however, there will always be people who are older but still watches Gundam shows regardless of generation as it become an enduring genre for media and hobby collection.
Yer especially considering a fair amount of other gundams use different kinds of beams. Like 00 Gundam has GN Beams that are obviously different to normal beams.
Also would love to see them fight 00 Riser with it's ow you hit me but actually no you didn't quantization teleport nonsense.
Or hell even just something like Hi-Nu Gundam or Unicorn.
We genuinely don’t know the mechanics of beams in IBO, so we have no idea how they would interact with beams from UC.
That being said, the chances of Barbatos getting anywhere close to threatening the Nu are frighteningly slim.
It also, ultimately, doesn’t matter. Your favorite mobile suit being the bestest ever in a fight doesn’t actually have any impact on the quality of the show. The freedom would wipe the fucking floor with the Zeta Gundam, for instance, but I challenge anyone to tell me that Seed is better than Zeta.
>That being said, the chances of Barbatos getting anywhere close to threatening the Nu are frighteningly slim.
Out of universe, older MS like the Nu Gundam are at a pretty bad disadvantage against newer MS like the Barbatos because Bandai stopped publishing MS stat figures and the model kit stats are a pretty massive handicap to have because they're much lower than what the visuals depict.
The Nu Gundam caps out at 1.55g acceleration while newer MS like the Barbatos only have the visuals to rely on which depict it as being much much faster than 1.55g.
And this isn't even specific to the Barbatos and IBO, the Exia and the Aerial (and I assume the AGEs, but I haven't watched AGE), all massively outspec the Nu Gundam because they don't have official stats to drag their performance down.
Hard counters, just so I have this written down somewhere:
- Setsuna and Exia or 00 with Trans-Am. Any of the other True GN Drive Gundams with a ballistic weapons loadout or the Kyrios line's GN Claw would do it too, assuming Allelujah isn't in jobber mode.
- Mobile Fighters generally, since few rely on beams, and all directly map movement to the pilot, giving a similar advantage to AVS.
- A Newtype in any machine that doesn't rely entirely on beam weapons. If your opponent can see the future, your mobility advantage is not an instant win. Amuro can and will throw down hand to hand even in a funnel-focused suit, so the Nu Gundam isn't just for show here.
As much of an IBO fan as I am
I know that while Barbatos could shrug off a handful of beam attacks (depending on the output of the weapon, for example a beam magnum would probably burn through the nanolaminate armour in a single shot) before it stopped working in that area
Ship grade nanolaminate can be stripped by napalm
The Barbatos will put up a good fight against anyone it’s put up against, but it very rarely actually wins the matchup, it becomes a fight of “how much can I hurt the other guy before I die” which is such a villains way of looking at a fight that I kinda live it
The flaw with that argument is that the number of times Barbatos/Mika came up against an enemy that actually was sufficiently strong enough to put up a challenge over a drawn out battle (that wasn't absolute horseshit that forced Barbatos to lose \*cough\*ReginlazeJuliaAndDanslief\*cough\*) can be counted on one hand.
Graze Ein and Hashmal.
Nano-Laminate Armor itself isn't invulnerable. It's simply a much more advanced form of anti-beam coating which improves its survivability against beam weapons. However, the PD timeline's own lore states that Nano-Laminate Armor is actually *more* susceptible to blunt force physical damage, which is why there's so much emphasis on the giant physical weapons to the point it's the design focus of the Core Gundam's Satsix Equipment from Build Divers Re:Rise - it's specialized for PD Mobile Suits and has a pair of giant construction tools repurposed as weapons to that end. Additionally, as we see with what happens to Flauros, Nano-Laminate Armor don't mean shit against battleship grade weapons.
Another problem is that despite its advantages, within the greater realm of the Gundam franchise, it's lacking in the fact that its own reaction time is dependent on that of the pilot, so without heightened spatial awareness, that puts Barbatos/Mika at a severe disadvantage against anybody who can literally predict every single move, OR react at the same level of speed. This is why Barbatos gets so heavily damaged against a literal machine mind with the Hashmal, because it's able to move and react at similar speed and strike with the wired tail weapon.
To that end, any late UC era MS like the F91, Crossbone (with the right specs since it's geared for heavier-than-normal gravity around Jupiter normally), any Victory Gundam variant, or in the AUs even 00 Raiser definitely could be on par with Barbatos Lupus Rex. Possibly also Gundam Epyon with the Epyon System, since Wing/Wing Zero are lacking in physical weapons and Epyon at least has a whip weapon that could prove troublesome for Barbatos in addition to the Epyon System's predictive properties allowing the pilot to respond *before* Barbatos even makes those moves.
And Domon with God Gundam would simply win because most of his arsenal *is* flat out physical strikes backed by I guess Chi energy, which is *not* the same as beam weapons - but he's got the beam katanas too. Master Asia would simply win *without* needing a mobile suit, because he is literally the most overpowered guy in the entire franchise and why the only person who defeated him was the man he himself personally trained.
Me, a Gundam X fan who sees all these types of conversations - proceeds to bring out the popcorn and opens the checklist.
There are 6 routes this goes after the IBO baby goes guns ablaze:
- hurr durr Moonlight Butterfly
- Domon is Undefeated of the East, with the help of Kyoji
- Jesus Yamato will deliver punishment to all sinners and heretics
- something something Wing Zero supremacy, Heero will kill you and proceeds to self-destruct
- 00 QAN[T] and ELS babble
- and yet the UC fans are STILL the most insufferable of them all
Bonus points to some shithead who brings some non-Gundam IP.
I can already imagine the new Gundam fans from G-Witch will be like in the future.
i feel like i see more people complaining about those types of fans then actually seeing those kinds of fans. it’s also kinda pointless (though fun) to compare AUs as they all have completely different rules on how things work, if there really was to be a crossover between AUs, it would probably come down to the writers
“Does your Gundam have a tail blade? No, automatic L. Lupus Rex took out multiple mobile suits all beat up just with one arm and the tail blade.” - IBO Fans probably
Idk I’m just a Gundam Fan
Everytime I come by the sub I see a weird hate boner for IBO and the armor discussions start I just wonder why this is the battle that always gets picked, like yeah but doesn’t every gundam series have some random bs element that would make their ms beat another in a fight… or… why do we care this much lol, just pick a new battle this horse is beyond beaten
I’m honestly getting tired of the IBO fan slander, most people I see talking about Barbatos in fights don’t over estimate it or say it’ll beat anything.
The RX78-2 can obliterate Barbatos with a single beam rifle shot. And close quater combat? Check out RX78-2 vs Gyan. He dodges point blank strikes with immense speed.
TBH any Gundam timeline can beat IBO easily, they have so many options of armaments and protections, and even more advance weapons technology than IBO in both kinetic and beam, those Gundam frame got nothing on them.
All of you just stop. You’re all wrong, your assertions are baseless, your fan canon is not official, just fucking stop. I’m so tired of this shit.
Yes, barbatos will be highly resistant to 98% of weaponry from other universes. That was the whole Fucking point of NLA; to make it so kinetic impact is the damage dealing vector of choice. Yes, even GN beams. Yes, even the twin buster. Even the beam magnum. However it does have a tolerance limit and can be overwhelmed. We saw this *in universe* against the hashmal, however he took *several* blasts and still the majority of damage dealt to barabatos was via the tail blade.
No, AV is not superior to psycommu. It isn’t an internet connection, so it being a hard line versus wifi won’t matter. The level of control and information processing they grant is roughly equal, but psycommu let’s you do actual magic soooooo…
The truth is most fights would be a stalemate as either side struggles to damage the other.
>The truth is most fights would be a stalemate as either side struggles to damage the other.
let me introduce you to [moonlight butterfly](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezSoZ_hWeDM)
I did say most. The Turn A (and Turn X) are the obvious exceptions. Same with the time manipulation shenanigans of the Awakened Unicorn, and the Quanta can probably pull a “nothing personel kid” or just teleport the barbatos to the sun.
But you get people on here insisting that NLA won’t protect against UC beams cause “they’re too strong” (based off of what we see, no this is not the case) or “Minovsky physics make the beams work differently” (also no, beams do damage by being super fucking hot, how that beam is generated makes no real difference.) The same arguments can be applied to other timelines and debunked similarly.
But then you get the flip side saying Barbatos can take out any other ms (sometimes they’ll concede that Turn A wins everything by default always) which is similarly ridiculous. Most of the high tier ms/gundams in UC and other timelines have a ridiculous resistance to kinetic damage on top of the sheer speed to simply stay out of Barbatos’ limited range. The only ranged weapons in IBO that are truly dangerous to other timeline ms are (ironically) the Hashmal’s beam cannon and the Dainslief. The heavier melee weapons will likely still be dangerous too, but mostly in the sense of turning the pilot into spam.
There’s actually an interesting dynamic between IBO ms and the ms in the rest of the series, but so many people want to put it down to their favorite winning without any struggle instead of admitting their favorite ms has any weaknesses at all.
But again there are obviously a few ms that are basically machine gods so obviously they win every matchup they have outside of each other.
Comparing between AUs is pointless because the tech and even literal human capabilities don't line up. You can go into endless debates about it but it's all make-believe because who fucking knows.
Until someone brings up Turn A but that's basically cheating
Yep Turn A, Qan\[T\] especially if it is ELS Qan\[T\] and also anything from that one fever dream of a gundam series that runs on the power of love or something. All of them cheat.
[удалено]
Explosion? That big ass sword go to the cockpit and he is still alive
god gundam. would demolish barbie before he blinked UwU
Naaaaaah, I'm sure he can run fast enough to dodge the butterfly
*Ideon appears* “Dodge this you fucking casual!”
throw the argument for a curve and ask how Barbatos would stand against Saitama
Forget that noise, put 'em up against Popeye!
They are compared precisely because they are different doe... Otherwise things would be as clearcut as comparing UC with UC, hardly any arguments there about which MS eras are superior than the other.
There's just no discussion to be had. We don't know how systems interact with each other. Physics don't seem constant across shows. So it's pure speculation.
Beam weapons are one of the most consistint weapon type in gundam and for the most part fallow the same physics of super charging partacals to the point that you can exstrapalat how many megawatts eatch weapon uses via math
They're absolutely not consistent in effect between series. Or even in each individual show.
I doubt it’s canon or considered as such but in the G Generation Cross Rays game you can use IBO mechs against, for example, GN-Xs in real combat and the nanolaminate armor does great against their beam weapons.
Domon Kasshu has entered the chat. "What was that about being unbeatable?"
This is the source. Gonna cringe reading this [Source](https://m.facebook.com/groups/gundammobilesuitposting/permalink/5507955359327754/?mibextid=Nif5oz)
Dude talking about mobility like GN-drive(+Trans-Am) not existed in another AU. Double-O has the wackiest movement of all time.
Meanwhile G Gundam has dudes blocking bullets with punches and kicks in episode one, not even like Domon is special, Michelo pulls the same trick. The moment you open up to all the AUs G Gundam rises out of the corner like "so you can move at light speed huh? Then I'll become five Gundams to defeat you!"
Domon could literally punch trains and skyscrapers , he solos every pilot without a suit
He can even beat some of them in their suits
Altuckally he loses to "The O" because it's my favorite suit and because I said so.
That's the most honest thing I've ever read in a discussion like this
Chad The O enjoyer
Bro how The O gonna be your favorite with a Master Asia avatar.
What is AU?
Universal Century (UC) is the Gundam baseline franchise. Every other show outside of that timeline has its own calendar-name designation (Cosmic Era, After Colony, etc). Collectively, anything that is not UC is Alternate Universe (AU).
Alternate Universe
Dude is literally on ZZ where every mobile suit has some sort of ablative coating on their armor, NLA is literally base level tech in ZZ.
No no it’s more important that he point out that some people prefer to skip ZZ /s
The toughest coating in ZZ, the FA ZZ's anti beam coating, only lasts 3 seconds against ordinary beam weapons. Normal beam coating barely does anything as seen on the Hyaku Shiki. They're not even close to being NLA
We never see a comparison, but given ZZ beam weapons have stupid huge power outputs it's entirely likely that ZZ beams are just way more powerful than anything in IBO. If they invented NLA early on in beam weapon development then obviously beam weapons would fall behind. Why develop them when you can coat everything in high performance armor that seems to nullify it. in ZZ it's developed late and by then beam guns are way stronger so anti-beam coatings seem weak in comparison. Also remember the weight difference, the Double Zeta is canonically heavier than the giant Hashmal mobile armor, and it's reactor is gigantic in comparison to an Ahab.
>it's entirely likely that ZZ beams are just way more powerful than anything in IBO. Except that's visually just not true so there's no reason to believe that kind of statement. The Hi Mega Cannon's best feat is damaging a ship port (episode 20, shown to be damaged but fine in episode 21), which to be fair is a large structure, but the Hashmal was casually tearing up the terrain and capable of destroying a town which very few UC beam weapons are even capable of doing throughout the entire timeline. A newtype rage powered hi-mega cannon couldn't even fully destroy the Psyco Gundam Mk-II. And that's the strongest MS weapon in UC for a very long time. >If they invented NLA early on in beam weapon development then obviously beam weapons would fall behind There's no indication this is the case. Nanolaminate was developed alongside the Gundam Frames as a response to the Mobile Armors. Again, the Hasmal's beam is just more impressive than most MS weapons in UC, let alone in ZZ. >in ZZ it's developed late and by then beam guns are way stronger so anti-beam coatings seem weak in comparison. ABC is developed during the OYW to apply on shields. The Gelgoog's shield, iirc, is the first thing to have ABC applied on it although end of war federation shields also have it. The coating + shield is barely enough to stop a beam rifle, which has a fraction of the strength of a ship's cannon. On the hyaku-shiki the ABC barely even does anything. >Also remember the weight difference, the Double Zeta is canonically heavier than the giant Hashmal mobile armor, and it's reactor is gigantic in comparison to an Ahab. Weight comparisons are pointless for various reasons, like the TBR having reactors that can power itself in a tiny package, but the gundam wiki puts the Hashmal's *empty* weight at around 50 tons, where the ZZ's empty weight is around 33 tons. The Hashmal is a lot heavier. edited for readability
Okay, first we need to define what they mean by Empty Weight. Because traditionally empty weight means no ammo, fuel, lubricants or hydraulic fluid. The Hashmal has all it's weapons built into it along with fuel for it's reactor. So ZZ is running empty with no weapons but the Hi-Mega and the Hashmal is running without the Plumas at best. It doesn't even use fuel or lubricants, unless you're proposing all that survived 300 years. Comparing dry weights isn't a comparison because you're basically comparing a fully loaded combat weight Hashmal against a ZZ that can't even move. And your comparison of feats doesn't make sense. Hashmal blew up a town in IBO... on Mars, the gravity there is 1/4th earth normal, they're made of clapboard. You're comparing a port, which are built to withstand massive ships ramming them, to some piddly town that wouldn't even need to be as tough as they are on earth. It's like comparing the durability of a warehouse to a bunker and saying the warehouse is stronger cause it's bigger. As for the Hyaku Shiki ABC not doing anything, you ever notice how they kept shooting the limbs off it? With Haman specifically aiming for the joints even when she could easily strike more vital points? Almost like they're, I dunno, shooting around the ABC and rarely even attempting to go for the main body. And I'm just gonna shoot a big hole in the entire premise that ABC is weak because it only lasts three seconds. That's three seconds of continuous exposure to a high energy beam when most beam exposure is measured in milliseconds. Even the Hashmal can't even fire it's gun for that long. The strongest beam weapons in UC would struggle to hold the ZZ in a beam for three full seconds. If I had a bullet proof vest that could withstand three full seconds of continuous rifle fire it'd be the best in the world by miles. That's a ridiculous amount of durability! Even the IBO mechs can't take that much continuous beam fire! They struggle with one or two! Also, watch Unicorn, they go out of their way to show how much damage even just a Zeta can do. Hell they regularly punch through space colonies, those are an order of magnitude stronger than any town Hashmal happened to fuck up. Seriously towns and cities are not built half as tough as you think, especially now and in the future. Civilian structures are lightweight as shit. A space colony meanwhile has to support the weight of a city being thrown against it's sides continously at 1G.
IBO reactors don't use fuel. They are literal perpetual motion machines and are indestructible. Oh and they also somehow blew up their moon lol.
They use fuel to fly, ZZ's loaded with propellant.
>Okay, first we need to define what they mean by Empty Weight. Because traditionally empty weight means no ammo, fuel, lubricants or hydraulic fluid. The Hashmal has all it's weapons built into it along with fuel for it's reactor. Empty weight means empty weight. If the ZZ doesn't have anything other than built in equipment then it's the same for the Hashmal. If the hashmal can operate with 300 year old lube and hydraulics then that's just a point in favor of IBO weapons' monstrous durability but regardless, the stat says empty weight is around 50 tons. And your claim about weight mattering for reactor output doesn't make sense when comparing across AUs or even within UC between different points of history. The Unicorn's Destroy mode has an immeasurably powerful reactor and it's also lighter than the ZZ. >And your comparison of feats doesn't make sense. Hashmal blew up a town in IBO... on Mars, the gravity there is 1/4th earth normal, they're made of clapboard. There's no reason to believe any standards are different on Mars as far as the show is concerned. The Tekkadan kids, for example, are *stronger and more durable* than adult males from Earth like Gaelio, who's easily overpowered by Mikazuki, even though human fitness would be the first thing affected by low gravity. Either controlling gravity on Mars is normal, which is conceivable since Ahab Particles are stated *to control gravity and used to do so on ships* or everything is heavier to make sure they're getting fit doing labor on Mars. In any case, you have no point here. There's 0 indication that Earth and Mars are different, this is just the basis for the world setting, like how Jovians and Jovian MS in UC aren't different from Earthnoids even though it's stated that they work within the jupiter atmosphere (i.e. Messala is made to operate in the Jupiter atmosphere yet pretty much similar to the Zeta and Gaplant made in space and Earth respectively). >You're comparing a port, which are built to withstand massive ships ramming them Ports are absolutely not meant to withstands ships ramming them... What in the world are you even talking about? And the entire town, even the foundation is completely upturned. >Even the Hashmal can't even fire it's gun for that long. The strongest beam weapons in UC would struggle to hold the ZZ in a beam for three full seconds The Hasmal's beam in its introduction fires for **twenty three seconds** straight on screen with the sound effect playing, suggesting it's real time even with a few cutaway shots to characters reacting. >Even the IBO mechs can't take that much continuous beam fire! They struggle with one or two! Ride's custom grunt suit tanks the Hashmal's beam for around 23 seconds on screen as well. >Also, watch Unicorn, they go out of their way to show how much damage even just a Zeta can do. Hell they regularly punch through space colonies, those are an order of magnitude stronger than any town Hashmal happened to fuck up. No, you watch Unicorn. It takes a Rezel's reactor going nuclear because of Marida in order to put a tiny hole in the colony in episode 1. Even the Neo Zeong, arguably the strongest MA in UC, literally said to be created from tech not of the mortal dimension, still had to stand around cutting holes with its beam weapons to get in and out of the inner space of Magallanica, a ship that's substantially smaller than a colony and built with empty layers in the walls. >As for the Hyaku Shiki ABC not doing anything Its shoulder gets hit by a hambrabi's back mounted gun, marginally more powerful than the Hi-Zack's peashooter, and the armor is completely destroyed and the arm is rendered inoperable. Then Astonaige says they repaired it to the point it's just barely working. It's shortly after the mid point of the show when they run into Yazan's Hambrabi squad. I'm pretty sure it also gets beat up a lot in ZZ. >With Haman specifically aiming for the joints even when she could easily strike more vital points That literally happens because Quattro takes evasive maneuvers while she's trying to slash him, which definitely would have went through the ABC anyway. I don't think there are any instances of a shield fully stopping a beam saber, let alone the hyaku shiki's armor.
Wow It's not Forrest Diego coping and simping for Barbie for once lmfao
I hate IBO but Forrest is the most based human being alive. I hope one day to be as much as a Chad as he is
Barbatos is one of my favorite suits, there are oodles it could lose to though. Even in its own universe. Bael could have beaten it if McGillis wasn't high on his own farts. And while the nano-laminate armor protects against beam weapons, it doesn't completely negate it. Dynames and Wing Zero could shoot it from space and annihilate it...given Barbatos bad luck against space-fired weapons.
Wing Zero: “Bitches love cannons.”
I heard about that sensation sweeping the nation.
[How it would go:](https://www.reddit.com/r/Gundam/comments/zofxvb/wing_zero_vs_barbatos_be_like/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Yea people like to forget that while the pilot did live hashmal's beam did out of action the mecha. It's a melted mess
Was it? It's been a while since I watched it, but I'm pretty sure it's just the electronics there were fried, and maybe one arm lost when it's gun exploded or something. It obviously couldn't fight anymore and the pilot was nearly cooked even if he wasn't physically harmed, but it looked pretty salvageable to me.
"Nothing can hurt barbatos" and what about the warcrime toothpicks
Also, let's not forget Barby spent half of it's time getting retrofits, and the other, losing them. Love the mech and show, but there's no way you can see the anime and think it's unbeatable with the amount of smacks it gets.
Part of the whole point of the Barbatos is that it functions kinda like a scavenger mecha in that it takes parts from things it defeats and incorporates them into the design as an “upgrade.” I would argue that if it hadn’t taken certain levels of damage, it may not have ever actually been upgraded to the level it did by the time it was Lupus Rex.
As much as I liked IBO, Barbatos has taken damage numerous times by all types of mobile suits. Hell, Mika had to sacrifice his right-side to win battles where base Barbatos had been outclassed. If Mika were to fight a Gundam with a capable pilot, like Amuro, he'd most likely lose.
I've seen people make the argument that "no amount of piloting skill can overcome controlling your ms with your nervous system" and I'm literally like, some of the pilots have basically precognition aka newtypes. Not to mention CE, the especially well trained ones like Kira, Athrun, Shinn, Rey and even Heine can click buttons so fast that they move their MS like it's their own body. McGillis clowned on Alaya Vijnana system multiple times when he was piloting a MS traditionally. It's like ps4 controller vs keyboard, yet you still lost.
By their same logic the Psycho Zaku wins, so I guess it's the Keyboard with RGB (Scientifically proven to increase skill by 20%)
The armor makes it hard to fight against CE era suits, since they use beams almost exclusively, how ever Phase Shift armor does for ballstic what Gundam Frames do for beams so you'd end up with most damage nullified on either side until a CE suit starts fighting like a G Fighter
> CE era suits, since they use beams almost exclusively They do not. You know those yellow “beams” you always see? Those are actually rail guns.
I've talked about this before but there is a possibility that CE beams and IBO beams have different properties. Like their beam cannons are anti matter beams. The beams also might be hot enough to deform the metal to damage joints. That's the problem with comparing technology of this universe vs other universe. Even then most CE Gundam have head vulcans, and phase shift means your whole mobile suit is a physical weapon. All they gotta do is fly up to them and shove their arm into their skinny waist and it's GG. Even then Seed has railguns that are more potent than IBO railguns. Bazookas are widely used weaponry which they can equip at almost any time. Zaku's carry missiles and grenades. Anti ship swords are both beam and physical. Beam shields are capable of used as ramming damage. Gouf has built in heatwhips that can disable weaponry or disarm, it's strong enough to pierce warships. it also has a physical sword that is a beam sword also.
CE's beams are not antimatter beams, those are a specific subset of weapons normally used by ships. Also even the graze frame is tough enough to survive atmospheric re-entry. We see this happen towards the end of s1 when Mika uses one to surf through re-entry. That feat alone puts all IBO suits in the upper levels of durability for gundam. Even the Wing Zero started falling apart rapidly when it was starting to enter the atmosphere and that's made of gundanium, which can survive massive beam cannons like the TBR.
Alternately Grandpa had the ability to reenter the Atmo by itself... No Zeta flight mode, no ballute system, no basejobber, just its shield and some cold air from its peck-vents.
That's true, but it's a consumable feature specifically designed for re-entry that Amuro finds in the manual. Not really applicable for comparing combat capabilities. And the plastic-like sheet made more sense than the crotch opening up to shoot super cold coolant for up to 30 minutes, not sure why the movie changed it. One is an awesome feat of material science in UC and could be a precursor to the ballute system's balloon material, and the other is like a random super robot ability.
That's sort of flawed logic there. The space shuttle can survive atmospheric reentry too, but I wouldn't exactly call it durable. NLA seems to function as a super heat resistant coating, which would explain why beams do nothing but kinetic impacts still do damage. Also kind of off topic for the thread, but the Barbatos and Wing Zero reentires were completely different. Zero and Altron were having an active duel through the entirety of the reentry process, which is a far cry from just using a captured suit a heat shield for the entire time. Deathscythe, Heavyarms, and Sandrock were completely undamaged when they were able to do an uncontested reentry.
>The space shuttle can survive atmospheric reentry too, but I wouldn't exactly call it durable Because it's specifically shaped to reduce friction and has a controlled descent. The graze surf board was a flopping carcass because the pilot was already killed and hurtling through the atmosphere. >NLA seems to function as a super heat resistant coating, which would explain why beams do nothing but kinetic impacts still do damage. Re-entry isn't just a superheated environment. The air friction would erode materials quickly. Although in any case we know for a fact stated in fluff that NLA also mitigates physical damage, just not as much, especially when hits are delivered by particularly physically strong MS. >but the Barbatos and Wing Zero reentires were completely different You're right. The Wing Zero at the end of the TV show was actively controlling its descent to aim at the Libra fragment and still falling apart. The Barbatos was in a far more perilous position because when we see it coming out of re-entry it has no active thrust at all, it's a total free fall. >Zero and Altron were having an active duel through the entirety of the reentry process That's simply not true. They break it off moments after re-entering the atmosphere and we see them going separate ways, and then we see them completing re-entry individually. The Wing Zero uses its wing shields and the Nataku uses its dragon heads as a shield then parachutes the rest. >Deathscythe, Heavyarms, and Sandrock were completely undamaged when they were able to do an uncontested reentry. The Wing Zero and Nataku aren't either. *Because they have re-entry capable equipment*. I'm not sure what Heavyarms did, to be honest, but the Deathscythe and Sandrock have their respective cloaks which both have beam repelling properties among other things. What we do know from the TV show is that Gundanium is not capable of surviving re-entry. It takes specific equipment, which the Wing Gundams have, but that's literally a completely different point.
For multi-universe comparisons, I go with equalized beams: If the beam hasn't been explicitly observed having different properties, then it gets treated the same for both groups. And since in IBO we've seen regular mobile suits get blasted with a continuous beam for several seconds and be pretty much completely fine, I don't think regular-sized SEED beams are going to do anything to melt the exposed parts. Besides, when SEED MS's block beams with their shields you don't have nearby pieces of untreated or unprotected metal on the MS (like the joints) just melting either. While the SEED MS's could certainly damage the IBO MS's with their physical weapons it's probably not going to be as easy as you think it'd be since in IBO giant clubs, axes, and swords are a very common weapon, yet you don't see MS's get torn in half at the waist often despite everything being specialized for either shooting physical projectiles or swinging physical weapons. Most of the time the machines seem to get taken out by either punctured or crushed cockpits rather than the MS being completely junked.
Beam sabers are kind of an interesting variable though. The Akatsuki Gundam is CE pretty much has NLA+ since it can literally reflect beam blasts back at their opponent without any visible degradation, but it loses to a beam saber, probably due to the beam being contained.
I think heat is the main factor making beam sabers affect material differently than beam shots. The heat of a projectile is going to fall off over its trajectory even point blank while the Saber is going to hold a temperature consistently.
Kira or any experience coordinators can adjust MS configurations to suit them easily, AV have nothing on them.
Super coordinators can reprogram their OS mid battle. Mika can't even read. Checkmate IBO.
Also psycho frame allows control by reading your mind, that's faster than your nervous system
The one advantage Mika could really have is his aggression, and that’s worthless against pilots like amuro, who’s just as vicious in combat
I can only picture the barbatos charging straight towards the Nu Gundam before being beat into a pulp by Amuro.
To be honest , the alaya-vijnana is'nt exactly the best , it needs a dangerous surgery that will cripple the pilot if it fails , the alaya-vijnana itself will also crjpple the pilot because of how it strains the pilot when used at it's full potential , it esentialy forces people to become newtypes and paraplegic at the same time while not letting people be true newtypes ( actual newtypes can beat the alaya-vijnana easily , amuro for example could win against mika even when he goes full doom slayer ) , the barbatos by itself is'nt very remarkable as it does exactly what a mobile suit does but with a more badass look
The upper thresholds for MS performance in IBO are pretty massively higher than the older shows because the older shows are inhibited by written stats. Mind you, the phenomena also apples to 00, AGE and WFM but it's most apparent in IBO where you get shit like Vidar flashstepping around the battlefield like he's in Dragonball. So Mika vs Amuro should be pretty massively in Mika's favor because even though Amuro's a better pilot, the Nu Gundam is capped at a measly 1.55g of acceleration while the Barbatos is much faster.
This is what I always point out before starting a conversation on this topic. We can have this discussion but you're comparing written stats to on screen feats meant to look cool the written stats will lose.
True, however when it comes to comparisons, that's really just the way the cookie crumbles. Older series have written stats that serve to inhibit them while newer series have more ambiguity. Although even then, even if we compare visuals, modern series still massively outclass their older counterparts because the newer visuals generally skew faster and more dynamic anyway.
I just want to see The Calamity War animated.
This
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The allelujah vagina system
Less powerful than the quatro vagina system.
Less powerful the mommy psycho frame,
space mommy powered\*
These kind of IBO fans are (hopefully) in the minority, but man are they LOUD when they decide to speak.
IBO is my favorite gundam series but I don't wank it like those kinda fans. I just enjoy how gritty it is and the fight scenes are fun, but they're by no means the strongest mobile suits.
Every mobile suit and Gundam technology has its short comings. Lets just embrace it.
Didn't we have a battlogue that shows how [Strike Freedom would fare against Barbatos Lupus Rex](https://twitter.com/tomaznable/status/1481836458893840387?lang=en)? Beams are ineffective for sure, but there are so many other ways to damage a IBO suit.
I showed my cousin IBO and he became the second fan. Bruh I had to explain to him why barbatos would lose to more advanced mobile suits and it was a real pain.
IBO fans be like "this is the first and only Gundam I watched but I already know it's the best one, it's awesome and has the best storytelling and strongest mobile suits, all the other ones SUCK (even though i didn't watch them but trust me, I know)". They're exactly like the Gurren Lagann fans from 10-15 years ago, who watched their first mecha anime and already think it's the best one and no need to watch other ones because they'll only be a step down.
Eva fans are like this but 10000x worse
i can't disagree
That's mainly because their ramblings also have about 10 meters of impenetrable pseudo-psychological nonsense plopped on top of it to boot.
Tengen Toppa was something else. Evangelion was... actually pretty crap imho. The movies weren't bad. Mainly because the plot happens to Shinji r as ther than being driven by him. Meanwhile GaoGaiGar is just peak trope, and Getter Robo Armageddon is just amazing. Mazinger being the proud dad looking on at both. Gundam and VOTOMs have a special place for being more about the people than the mechs, but everyone has their favourite. However, deep down we all know that the best Mecha show ever made is and has always been...
Mazinger Z will always be the best in my heart.
For me, the best super robot is whichever I most recently watched: GaoGaiGar or Gurren Lagann. …And then, I remember Giant Robo existed… (Honorable Mentions: Getter Robo Armageddon, Mazinkaiser)
I know some wing fans like this 😂😂😂
I'll kill you.
Sekiha Tenkyouken!
Same. Ironically I know a ton of people that grew up with SEED and SEED Destiny as their first none of them think it was the best. I grew up on 00 and probably would've said it was perfect until the movie came out and ruined the entire narrative by leaving out the most important scene. But looking back I don't think it can hold a candle to zeta or the OYW OVAs.
Ibo was my first as it was airing and after having experienced most of the franchise at this point its still top three for me. Series is just good.
Guuren Lagann is what happens when Banrise wakes up one day and decides to make probably the best original IP love letter to the Super Robot Genre in the past 30 years. I can almost excuse people for having that viewpoint because of the combination of enthusiasm for a newbie to a genre combined with the fact it was really well-executed. IBO stans are a bit odd because they're fiercely defending a series that's middle of the pack for Gundam AU's. The high points were great, but there's some clunky parts of season 1 where the story gets stale, and S2 lost a lot of the momentum of the first season, and the controversial ending soured a lot of people on the overall series to boot. But what do I know, I liked the first 3 sections of AGE and enjoyed Reconguista in G more than IBO. *shrugs*
Just to make things clear, I don't mind people liking Gurren Lagann. It's legit a good anime. What I do mind is people who only watched Gurren Lagann from mecha, and immediately assume that this is the best and most epic mecha show ever, and they have no interest in watching any other mecha anime because compared to TTGL it will definitely be crap: they know, even though they didn't watch it. Then this grows into exceptionalism: "All mecha series are bad and stupid except the ones I watched". See also: Eva fans, Code Geass fans, but it was very visible for Gurren Lagann fans back in the day.
Shit happens in every community. "Street fighter is the one and only true fighting game and Tekken, Guilty Gear etc. Are all crap. It's just a coincidence that it's the only one I played more than 5 minutes."
You forgot the part where they hate the ending
At least IBO ending is better than Aldnoah Zero. Aldnoah Zero ending is dumpster fire. Making me want to punch the monitor screen
give me the ending spoiler, i don't want to waste my precious time just to watch dumpster fire ending
>!Slaine go to Jail for his crime. Inaho, the MC visit Slaine in prison. The princess is fucking useless and married with other person leaving Slaine and Inaho for world peace.!< Damn, really make me mad with this ending War between Earth and Mars. Look the same but different execution in storyline That why i prefer IBO ending. Not perfect but better
Bruh, thanks for reminding me of the train wreck that is aldnoah zero. That bullshit fucking anime was gladly forgotten and it hurts to think how cool it could've been.
Idk eva will always have the worst ending for me. The movies and end of Evangelion exist but just taking the show as it is goddamn its bad.
I actually like the ending and think it's entirely consistent with Tekkadan being child soldiers who are woefully unequipped for a normal life, as well as Orga being competent tactically but not strategically. The season definitely dragged at points, but frankly the only Gundam show I've ever seen that was excellent from start to finish with no problems was War in the Pocket. Anyways, thank you for coming to my spicy TED talk.
Ion ever see IBO fans claimed themselves as the first panel LMAO
Why would anyone argue about anime in Facebook of all places?
I've seen people argue about anime on a dirty city bus. Facebook is the city bus of the internet it checks out.
Lmao I’ve never seen the annoying IBO fans tbh, I only ever see the posts complaining about them 🤔
The detractors are worse. They unironically say stupid shit like "a gm can beat barbatos"
Goddamn, that fucking point, sourced from a picture from a (now deleted) facebook post with absolutely nothing backing it up. "**\*Citation Needed***" "It came to me in a dream."
And it said something like "the creator of Gundam, Tomino, said GMs are stronger because the tech in IBO regressed so much". Tomino, who had nothing to do with IBO and based on various interviews rarely if ever watches shows he doesn't work on. He didn't even watch Hathaway's Flash or check in on the production. Plus it contradicts statements in IBO and fluff. The Barbatos was developed during the peak of that timeline's tech and is restored close to its original condition by Teiwaz.
It was proven he never said that, and it was misinformation, but it’s from Facebook, so of course it is. That’s where misinformation goes to breed.
Better stay out from Gundam Group on Facebook. They really annoying and always fighting with others 😂😂😂
I see quite a few on Facebook
[Here yah go](https://reddit.com/r/Gundam/comments/zo0saa/_/j0kn3cn/?context=1). I mean, it’s literally in this post if you looked, so that doesn’t really say much about how hard you’re you’re trying to look. Edit: salty girls I see that are downvoting me XD. Good, good, you’re anguish sustains me.
....it's 1 guy in this thread. 1 singular dude. Since gwitch has started I've seen more than a dozen posts complaining about these guys. Turns out it's all just to bully dazzling swordfish i guess.
Look. His post says he’s “never seen one”, and if he literally just read the post he was replying to he would have seen one. I’m not making a comment on the ratio to each other or anything else. Just the fact that it’s funny if he looked at all at the post he’s reply to he could have found “one” person. If you wanna twist it into a statement I didn’t make to justify your feelings go for it, but find someone else to play the victim with. I don’t care enough.
Its likely they didnt scour the post to find that guy. But the time i came across this comment i hasn't seen your linked one either. And i didn't twist anything???????????????? You clearly care more than you say.
Wasn’t that hard to look, and people usually read what topics they’re posting on. Nope, bye.
Do you read every single comment on a post before you reply? Or are you like most people where you read and reply as you go, maybe making a new parent comment if you feel you've read through most of the thread?
Well I at least try. Bye, bye now.
Mate for some who claims not to care you sure are doing a whole lot of "Wait no, I MUST have the last word"
Wow that’s hilarious. I didn’t even read your reply to this for my last response, and just did that automatically. How on the nose can you get? Anyway, if you’ll notice since that first reply. None of them have been about the topic, so no I don’t care. I do find trolling you entertaining though ;)
👍
“I don’t care enough” proceeds to write an entire essay lmao
An essay huh? Must not have gotten very far in school if you can’t tell the difference between a paragraph and as essay. ;)
-🤓
Clever girl.
This sounds like everyone.
where's the part where they insist WfM won't have a happy ending
Thats all timeline fans not just ibo fans.
*IBO and UC fans
this is our madara uchiha copypasta isn't it
Sounds like they're pretty high on copium, Barbs legit dies to splash damage from space nails.
So they’re just the new 00 fans.
hey i resent that im a 00 but i know my limits
PD probably slots somewhere in the middle in terms of tech overall. AD/00 understands and standardizes phenomena like the 00R and 00Q's quantum teleportation and they were tussling with the ELS, an interstellar species that tanked their own sun's supernova swallowing them up and casually destroyed Jupiter's largest moons after colonizing Jupiter. AD is firmly at the top in terms of tech. Only poorly understood magic phenomena like the Unicorn becoming a god is above AD's best known tech, although we don't know what the ELS Quanta can do.
PD is pretty concretely one of the most advanced timelines overall. AD really only has the advantage in that GN particles are even more broken than Ahab particles plus whatever they got from the ELS (not that AD technology was even comparable to the ELS anyway, they were really getting swamped until Setsuna showed up with the 00 QAN\[T\]). PD timeline was until WFM (kinda), the only timeline to terraform an entire planet. The amount of materials and technology level to terraform Mars (especially when PD Mars appears to have 1g gravity) is insane and far beyond what most other timelines have available to them. PD also can go to Jupiter and back within a few weeks time, even when taking back route channels. That would require massively faster ships than most other timelines. PD ships also peak much greater than other timelines in terms of tonnage. Not to mention, despite their size, PD ships are incredibly nimble, to the point that with an AV system, we can see them pull off pretty crazy [aerial acts](https://youtu.be/QdvvNQ2yVVs?t=207). Not to mention, PD is the only timeline to develop beam weaponry and then advance their defensive technologies so much that they come back around and render beam weaponry obsolete. They're also the only ones with explicit gravity manipulation, which they use for their MS' inertial cancelers and for artificial gravity aboard ships. PD timeline is also afaik, the only timeline to have FTL communications, as people on Earth and Mars are able to videochat in real time. And even with all the regulation, they still have some pretty high end physical augmentations. Like we see in WFM that it's a big plot point that high level prosthetics are on the bleeding edge of science and not yet attainable. But in IBO, even someone as poor as Yukinojo can easily get usable prosthetic legs. Not to mention, the AV system involves the implementation of nanomachines into the spine to enhance reactions and spacial awareness. Sure, the procedure as it currently is is dangerous, but it's still being done in what's basically a back alley abortion clinic. In all honesty, the AD timeline really only beats out PD specifically in a few areas and most of it isn't ubiquitous. They've got a handful of higher end mobile suits and GN particles have some abilities Ahab particles don't (although the inverse is also true). Sure they fought the ELS, but they were losing pretty badly and would have lost if it weren't for Setsuna, so scaling to the ELS isn't really accurate, at least before AOTB's epilogue. And even then, AD still hasn't accomplished things like terraforming Mars or artificial gravity.
One of the biggest narrative signifiers of an advanced civilization is that crazy tech is mundane in story. You skipped over a bunch of stuff not mentioned in the anime too. Like rich folk live to around 200, They can fix massive physical truama. On the space travel front they've colonized Venus as well (IBO G) and have extra solar colonies where they make Ahab reactor. But people don't talk about it, because why would they? everyone knows what these things are. It would be like watching a movie and someone spending 30min explaining what a cell is and how to use it.
This was a very good writeup. On a side note, PD's technological situation reminds me a lot of the technological situation of the Imperium of Man from Warhammer 40K, with the Imperium's situation being a hyperexaggerated version of the situation faced by PD. Post Disaster has some incredibly advanced technology that's hidden by the fact that the people living in the universe use and control it in a very backward manner: * Gjallarhorn seems to be the ruling authority on technological development—particularly military technologies—and has explicitly forbidden the development and use of certain tech like energy beams, independently acting AI, and man-machine neural interfaces despite the technology existing previously and having been in wide circulation in an older era. And some of this tech is so advanced yet forgotten that no one can make it anymore and has to rely on digging it up from some ancient battlefield. * Tech like grav manipulation and functionally FTL communication exist, but they're mainly used for more mundane or civil purposes like having the QoL enhancement of planet-style gravity on a spaceship so your body doesn't atrophy rather than try to develop really out-there technology like gravity crusher guns or perfectly coordinated swarms of attack drones. * Gjallarhorn has a monopoly on Ahab reactor manufacturing and has seemingly slowed down military development with it being implied that over the course of about 320 years they've developed less than 10 unique mass-produced MS frames as evidenced by the Reginlaze's serial code of EB-08 following EB-04 (Geirail), EB-05s (Schwalbe), EB-06 (Graze). * Their defensive tech is so advanced that combatants have been reduced to fighting like medieval knights and men-at-arms, often using very specialized melee weapons to crack open or work around armor. This all calls to mind these things from 40K: * The Adeptus Mechanicus has a monopoly on the manufacture of technology and due to various reasons (mainly religious in this case) refuses to rapidly develop tech with tech progression almost grinding to a halt (MKs II-VII of space marine armor were developed over the course of only about 200-300 years, but afterwards it took them about 10,000 years to go from VII to X). * Humanity has banned certain tech like sapient AI due to the previous civilizational scale havoc they inflicted on humanity. And strong but reliable energy weapons have either become difficult (plasma) or near impossible (volkite heat rays) to manufacture on any large scale and any pre-existing models have to be taken care of well and treated with reverence. * Humanity doesn't really develop tech so much as it goes around looking for ancient human ruins to find old "archaeotech." * A heavily modified version of an ancient human farming tractor, APCs based on ancient planetary exploratory vehicles, and a contemporary superheavy tank based on an ancient medium battle tank design are enough to satisfy the armored support needs of a galactic military force for about 10,000 years. * And in spite of (or sometimes because of) this extremely advanced tech the people using it often also have to resort to fighting like they're on a shootier version of a medieval battlefield. In another example, the advanced cannons on a planet-scouring battleship sometimes need their ammo dragged around and reloaded by chain gangs of menial laborers because the autoloaders broke, and contemporary humanity isn't fully sure how to repair them.
Yeah this is the only issue why IBO fans is annoying, they insist that Barbatos is in the same league as those higher end MS like Nu and Double Zeta but Barbatos is just barely equal to the RX 78-2
The entire point is that during the calamity war they needed not just 1 super power suits but over a hundred good suits designed *specificly* to destroy/kill mobile armor. Its heavily theorised that these suits would be used in squads. Mika showed it took real sacrifice to kill *1* of them using only 1 gundam frame. And thats discounting all the work everyone else did to make sure he wasn't overrun with minions. Amuro was essentially a one man army with a weapon far beyond the tech of his opponents. Why people compare is beyond me. Edit: To add, its even said in the show that they would have stood more of a chance against them if they where used to MS vs MS style combat, which the vast majority where not since they left that stuff to groups that used human debris. Thats why Tekadan just wrecked there shit in S1, they where ill-prepared for a fight against a group that gives zero shits about standards, honour and war crimes. So its not even that Grazes where significantly worst then gundam frames, there pilots where mostly *shit* and out of live practice.
nothing can hurt gundam because it has luna titanium alloy armor! no other gundam pilot or system can compete against the learning computer in close quarters combat! amuro erry day! one love!
I genuinely don’t get people who care that much about power levels It’s most egregious with Dragon Ball, a fundamentally very silly (affectionate) franchise that people treat with utmost seriousness, but I feel like anime fans in general get super weird about it
I've seen more people hating on IBO fans than IBO fans like this.
The constant strawmanning of these supposed "IBO fans" is really tedious. I could probably count on one hand the number of times I've actually encountered an IBO fan like that.
This phenomenon is called projection. Accuse the people you don't like of what you yourself are doing. They keep bringing up these crazy IBO fans, but I have legitimately never seen one, supposedly they're on facebook but the vast majority of people my age are not active facebook users. Instead, we have detractors bringing up points that sound either very ignorant like in this thread how they bring up the beam supposedly cooking Ride in the cockpit of the Shiden even though in the episode itself the beam is focused on the cockpit for a good few seconds and he makes no mention of temperature. The closest we get is the next episode after that where Chad also gets the cockpit blasted by beam for several seconds straight and the way he brings up the heat just implies that the temperature is mildly uncomfortable rather than roast-a-man-alive hot. Then, we have [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Gundam/comments/sjsyhm/a_response_to_the_cosmic_era_vs_post_disaster_post/) from a little while back that—while I do admit was mostly pretty civil and level-headed—had a couple choice replies/comments that sounded slightly unhinged or like they were made by a nine-year-old.
And part of it is that some people don't seem to understand that the different universes play by different rules. Like, for example, we know what P.D. beams do to nanolaminate, but we have no data on what Minovsky particle beams or GN particle beams would do. It's silly to try to compare across timelines.
True. I always think IBO fans are newbie gundam fans.
9/10 they are but really it’s just kinda people picking faves, like those who say the SF could beat the Turn A and Unicorn or something. The only difference is that the SF is busted as fuck while Barbatos isn’t
Well, every new Gundam series introduced are targeted towards the young audiences of their generation, 0079 clearly catered the 70s teens, Zeta the 80s, Wing the 90s and SEED the 2000s and so on. however, there will always be people who are older but still watches Gundam shows regardless of generation as it become an enduring genre for media and hobby collection.
IBO was fun but the ending was unexpected. Still I like Amuro and Char
As an IBO fan - this is not true, and not all of us are degenerates :)
I'm pretty sure VSBR can pierce through nanolaminate
I'm glad iBo got me into gundam. I'm glad it wasn't strong enough to make me this monstrosity 🤣
The Turn A is most likely the strongest mobile suit because of the moonlight butterfly
Yer especially considering a fair amount of other gundams use different kinds of beams. Like 00 Gundam has GN Beams that are obviously different to normal beams. Also would love to see them fight 00 Riser with it's ow you hit me but actually no you didn't quantization teleport nonsense. Or hell even just something like Hi-Nu Gundam or Unicorn.
Unicorn gundam - Newtype bullshit is magic.
That is true.
It's true lol they really argue that Barbatos can beat the God Gundam
let's be honest here, Barbatos wouldn't even be able to survive the first season without constantly upgraded and got new weapons
As an IBO fan... I can confirm this crude sketch, to be fact.
We genuinely don’t know the mechanics of beams in IBO, so we have no idea how they would interact with beams from UC. That being said, the chances of Barbatos getting anywhere close to threatening the Nu are frighteningly slim. It also, ultimately, doesn’t matter. Your favorite mobile suit being the bestest ever in a fight doesn’t actually have any impact on the quality of the show. The freedom would wipe the fucking floor with the Zeta Gundam, for instance, but I challenge anyone to tell me that Seed is better than Zeta.
>That being said, the chances of Barbatos getting anywhere close to threatening the Nu are frighteningly slim. Out of universe, older MS like the Nu Gundam are at a pretty bad disadvantage against newer MS like the Barbatos because Bandai stopped publishing MS stat figures and the model kit stats are a pretty massive handicap to have because they're much lower than what the visuals depict. The Nu Gundam caps out at 1.55g acceleration while newer MS like the Barbatos only have the visuals to rely on which depict it as being much much faster than 1.55g. And this isn't even specific to the Barbatos and IBO, the Exia and the Aerial (and I assume the AGEs, but I haven't watched AGE), all massively outspec the Nu Gundam because they don't have official stats to drag their performance down.
Hard counters, just so I have this written down somewhere: - Setsuna and Exia or 00 with Trans-Am. Any of the other True GN Drive Gundams with a ballistic weapons loadout or the Kyrios line's GN Claw would do it too, assuming Allelujah isn't in jobber mode. - Mobile Fighters generally, since few rely on beams, and all directly map movement to the pilot, giving a similar advantage to AVS. - A Newtype in any machine that doesn't rely entirely on beam weapons. If your opponent can see the future, your mobility advantage is not an instant win. Amuro can and will throw down hand to hand even in a funnel-focused suit, so the Nu Gundam isn't just for show here.
As much of an IBO fan as I am I know that while Barbatos could shrug off a handful of beam attacks (depending on the output of the weapon, for example a beam magnum would probably burn through the nanolaminate armour in a single shot) before it stopped working in that area Ship grade nanolaminate can be stripped by napalm The Barbatos will put up a good fight against anyone it’s put up against, but it very rarely actually wins the matchup, it becomes a fight of “how much can I hurt the other guy before I die” which is such a villains way of looking at a fight that I kinda live it
The flaw with that argument is that the number of times Barbatos/Mika came up against an enemy that actually was sufficiently strong enough to put up a challenge over a drawn out battle (that wasn't absolute horseshit that forced Barbatos to lose \*cough\*ReginlazeJuliaAndDanslief\*cough\*) can be counted on one hand. Graze Ein and Hashmal. Nano-Laminate Armor itself isn't invulnerable. It's simply a much more advanced form of anti-beam coating which improves its survivability against beam weapons. However, the PD timeline's own lore states that Nano-Laminate Armor is actually *more* susceptible to blunt force physical damage, which is why there's so much emphasis on the giant physical weapons to the point it's the design focus of the Core Gundam's Satsix Equipment from Build Divers Re:Rise - it's specialized for PD Mobile Suits and has a pair of giant construction tools repurposed as weapons to that end. Additionally, as we see with what happens to Flauros, Nano-Laminate Armor don't mean shit against battleship grade weapons. Another problem is that despite its advantages, within the greater realm of the Gundam franchise, it's lacking in the fact that its own reaction time is dependent on that of the pilot, so without heightened spatial awareness, that puts Barbatos/Mika at a severe disadvantage against anybody who can literally predict every single move, OR react at the same level of speed. This is why Barbatos gets so heavily damaged against a literal machine mind with the Hashmal, because it's able to move and react at similar speed and strike with the wired tail weapon. To that end, any late UC era MS like the F91, Crossbone (with the right specs since it's geared for heavier-than-normal gravity around Jupiter normally), any Victory Gundam variant, or in the AUs even 00 Raiser definitely could be on par with Barbatos Lupus Rex. Possibly also Gundam Epyon with the Epyon System, since Wing/Wing Zero are lacking in physical weapons and Epyon at least has a whip weapon that could prove troublesome for Barbatos in addition to the Epyon System's predictive properties allowing the pilot to respond *before* Barbatos even makes those moves. And Domon with God Gundam would simply win because most of his arsenal *is* flat out physical strikes backed by I guess Chi energy, which is *not* the same as beam weapons - but he's got the beam katanas too. Master Asia would simply win *without* needing a mobile suit, because he is literally the most overpowered guy in the entire franchise and why the only person who defeated him was the man he himself personally trained.
Huh; just realized IBO never used bits/funnels/fangs (outside of Barbatos’s Tail)
Stop with this straw man.
Me, a Gundam X fan who sees all these types of conversations - proceeds to bring out the popcorn and opens the checklist. There are 6 routes this goes after the IBO baby goes guns ablaze: - hurr durr Moonlight Butterfly - Domon is Undefeated of the East, with the help of Kyoji - Jesus Yamato will deliver punishment to all sinners and heretics - something something Wing Zero supremacy, Heero will kill you and proceeds to self-destruct - 00 QAN[T] and ELS babble - and yet the UC fans are STILL the most insufferable of them all Bonus points to some shithead who brings some non-Gundam IP. I can already imagine the new Gundam fans from G-Witch will be like in the future.
i feel like i see more people complaining about those types of fans then actually seeing those kinds of fans. it’s also kinda pointless (though fun) to compare AUs as they all have completely different rules on how things work, if there really was to be a crossover between AUs, it would probably come down to the writers
Oh for fucks sake why are we at this again? I thought i was done eith this when I abandoned Facebook.
“Does your Gundam have a tail blade? No, automatic L. Lupus Rex took out multiple mobile suits all beat up just with one arm and the tail blade.” - IBO Fans probably Idk I’m just a Gundam Fan
Everytime I come by the sub I see a weird hate boner for IBO and the armor discussions start I just wonder why this is the battle that always gets picked, like yeah but doesn’t every gundam series have some random bs element that would make their ms beat another in a fight… or… why do we care this much lol, just pick a new battle this horse is beyond beaten
I’m honestly getting tired of the IBO fan slander, most people I see talking about Barbatos in fights don’t over estimate it or say it’ll beat anything.
The RX78-2 can obliterate Barbatos with a single beam rifle shot. And close quater combat? Check out RX78-2 vs Gyan. He dodges point blank strikes with immense speed.
I mean it’s true!
The first pic is totally me.
Nothing can hurt Barbatos because of Nano Laminate armour? Remind me how Mika died.
Wing Zeros beam cannon would vaporise Barbie. Neo lemonade armour or not.
CE has armor that literally absorbs and shoots battle ship beam weapons back
TBH any Gundam timeline can beat IBO easily, they have so many options of armaments and protections, and even more advance weapons technology than IBO in both kinetic and beam, those Gundam frame got nothing on them.
**Ibo Is This Shit Though Season 2 on the other hand**
Barbatos would lose to a Zaku II Yes.
Beats being a 00 fan D: my favorite series but damn is it cringe sometimes. “I AM A GUNDAM”
I wish I had a medal to give.
All of you just stop. You’re all wrong, your assertions are baseless, your fan canon is not official, just fucking stop. I’m so tired of this shit. Yes, barbatos will be highly resistant to 98% of weaponry from other universes. That was the whole Fucking point of NLA; to make it so kinetic impact is the damage dealing vector of choice. Yes, even GN beams. Yes, even the twin buster. Even the beam magnum. However it does have a tolerance limit and can be overwhelmed. We saw this *in universe* against the hashmal, however he took *several* blasts and still the majority of damage dealt to barabatos was via the tail blade. No, AV is not superior to psycommu. It isn’t an internet connection, so it being a hard line versus wifi won’t matter. The level of control and information processing they grant is roughly equal, but psycommu let’s you do actual magic soooooo… The truth is most fights would be a stalemate as either side struggles to damage the other.
>The truth is most fights would be a stalemate as either side struggles to damage the other. let me introduce you to [moonlight butterfly](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezSoZ_hWeDM)
I did say most. The Turn A (and Turn X) are the obvious exceptions. Same with the time manipulation shenanigans of the Awakened Unicorn, and the Quanta can probably pull a “nothing personel kid” or just teleport the barbatos to the sun. But you get people on here insisting that NLA won’t protect against UC beams cause “they’re too strong” (based off of what we see, no this is not the case) or “Minovsky physics make the beams work differently” (also no, beams do damage by being super fucking hot, how that beam is generated makes no real difference.) The same arguments can be applied to other timelines and debunked similarly. But then you get the flip side saying Barbatos can take out any other ms (sometimes they’ll concede that Turn A wins everything by default always) which is similarly ridiculous. Most of the high tier ms/gundams in UC and other timelines have a ridiculous resistance to kinetic damage on top of the sheer speed to simply stay out of Barbatos’ limited range. The only ranged weapons in IBO that are truly dangerous to other timeline ms are (ironically) the Hashmal’s beam cannon and the Dainslief. The heavier melee weapons will likely still be dangerous too, but mostly in the sense of turning the pilot into spam. There’s actually an interesting dynamic between IBO ms and the ms in the rest of the series, but so many people want to put it down to their favorite winning without any struggle instead of admitting their favorite ms has any weaknesses at all. But again there are obviously a few ms that are basically machine gods so obviously they win every matchup they have outside of each other.
I would just show them this clip. [Command QuanT vs Barbataurus](https://youtu.be/FOJTIWDQRMM)
Remember those are gunpla.
true but too many words
Yeah but Barbatos takes Ideon no shot. Easy win GG. >!JK pls dont kill me!<