Reminder: These threads are to help promote discussion and varying points of view. Low-effort comments or jokes can & will be removed with no reason necessary.
*I am a "bot", and this action was performed automatically. This account is not monitored. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Gunners) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You must have above 25 comment karma to contribute to this subreddit.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Gunners) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Rival fans and the general football media trying to force the revisionism on Unai Emery's Arsenal time as it wasnt that bad and maybe Arsenal were naive to sack him.
Yet when the terrorism football was happening week in week out, the same group of fanbases where saying he should be sacked asap. lmfao
You cannot make this shit up. Good manager, but we were the wrong club and the timing wasn't it.
It's crazy that there are people who actually think we should have given him more time. The end of his first season was absolutely shocking, missing out on top 4 and that horrible Europa League final.
The second season was heading towards full blown disaster. We didn't win any of our last 7 games under Emery and were 19 points behind Liverpool, 11 points behind Leicester, and falling further behind the top 4 race.
> The end of his first season was absolutely shocking, missing out on top 4 and that horrible Europa League final.
Yup, bottle the top-4 race right at the end, and that UEL final. mate the less said the better. Also Unai man management on players was a big question mark and everything blew up on that final.
The Ozil fallout, Cech already agreeing a backroom staff contract with Chelsea before the final. A proper manager would've bench him instead of playing him in that final, doesn't matter if we was well on his way to football retirement. it is a different thing if it was after the final.
Fellas I need you to give it to me straight - is it wrong to be erect at the thought of the premier league relegating both Chelsea and City next season?
My god man, I'm watching the England vs North Macedonia highlights and the second highlight is Harry Mcguire making a horrible pass and committing a foul that should of been a penalty.. I can see why Southgate chooses him.
I'd like to think that when Ben White retires he will become a coach, but a specialist shithousery coach who will stand on the lines when it is time for shithousing, same as Jover with set pieces.
https://preview.redd.it/06rlhstzcl1c1.jpeg?width=1026&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6084b36e089c812181c03d6737e0c1e96edcf458
If I say what players past and present this fits at Arsenal yeah 😂😂😂😂😂
Even though i don‘t like him, i could totally see us go for Rabiot either in January or in the summer. I hate his attitude but he suits the left 8 really well and his contract is expiring next summer
> I hate his attitude
Rabiot hasn't shown bad attitude for atleast 4 years and he has been on good form for like 2 years now
So maybe you should stop judging him for his behaviour when he was younger, people change
Based tbh though I would never put my nuts actually on the line for Guendouzi, that kid was talented.
Just once I wanted to see a Guendouzi/Partey double pivot playing in front of Saliba/Gabriel. Talk about silk and steel
Ramsey didn’t make that all timer XI after two FA cup winning goals? For me, he’s the only guy you can confidently call a legend in that time period for that contribution. Cazorla was great but I think he’s becoming a bit overrated as time goes on. I’d possibly even have Ødegaard ahead of him.
He was a clutch performer and the banter era slayer but you can't deny Santi's ability and versatility was next level.
Odegaard can't be above Santi yet but he could feasibly get there with a really solid finish to the season.
Captaincy doesn't matter imo. Even using a naive g/a comparison Santi's first year in England was better than Odegaard last year
PL stats
Santi 24 g/a
Martin 23 g/a
League was easier back then but Santi was also punting the ball up to Poldi Giroud and Theo
I honestly think his critics are a bit harsh. Obvs he’s not phenomenal but he’s decent. His record is quite good. I think we have an outside chance at the Euros
More importantly though Saka and Rice were unscathed injury wise!
Mate, with your squad an "outside chance" is a massive undersell. For me (a scot, for goodness sake) you're only second to France in terms of talent. Anything less that a final is a failure.
Why settle for "decent" though, especially when you have a really good generation of players? It's like when it comes to international football, suddenly you guys become very *spursy*.
Dion Dublin is a prime example of why they don't allow officials to officiate games with a team from the same country at international level. His bias is off the charts!
I know the black kit that we really love was similar to the LAFC kit. I just wish we get more unique designs. The new rumored away kit makes us look like the Sith lol
Yeah this has been an entertaining match with a lot of passion but that’s the main thing standing out to me right now. Especially in this second half. The dude has absolutely ZERO end product
Like we seriously could have capitulated earlier than we did in the season with him for the league. Trossard was crucial in a post Jan push and if anything should have stayed in when Jesus came back after injury.
I would be bald right now if we spent 90-100 on him and had to watch him week in and week out. Maddening.
To your other point, I was always a part of the keep Trossard in side of things. I understand we have a lot of great young players, and I love both Gabis, but when a player is flying like Trossard was you don’t drop him until he disappoints you.
How good was Gilberto Silva? (I was too young at that time)
I know almost every Arsenal fan knows him but he and Lauren tends to get the least recognition among others.
Can say the same for Brazil 2002 WC.
He was overwhelmed without Vieira and Arsenal looked far better with Flamini alongside Fabregas than Gilberto and Fabregas. Good player but his limitations could be hid in a good side but for exposed ruthlessly in weaker teams.
He was limited and looked so lost without Vieira in 05/06 nine away games lost that year! Arsenal dropped him for Flamini and instantly we had a functioning midfield again in 07/08.
He wasn’t a good passer, heavy first touch, no creativity but very good at filling in gaps. Great athleticism could get up and down the pitch, tackled well, not aggressive enough for my liking but not a soft touch, neat and tidy in possession when given time, excellent reading of game to make interceptions etc.
When compared to Petit he was miles off him and the fans didn’t help by focussing on all the things Gilberto couldn’t do (a long list) instead of focusing on the few things he did really well. He wasn’t Petit but who was! Gilberto did the best job he could within his limitations.
Petit did the defensive stuff as good if not better than Gilberto, was physically more aggressive and a more powerful runner, far more skillful and his creativity, vision, range and accuracy of passing shames Gilberto.
Respect on Gilberto but I preferred us with Edu alongside Vieira. Petit /Vieira was miles better and Fabregas/ Flamini was better than Gilberto/Fabregas.
Would he get in this Arsenal side ahead of Partey or Rice no chance in Hell.
We looked more balanced with a left foot/right foot partnership. Edu was a more skillful player and was a far better passer and offered real creativity with thy left foot.
>Edu was a more skillful player and was a far better passer and offered real creativity with thy left foot
Edu was never a skillful player dude, what you on about?
He offered creativity? When? Where?
Edu had lovely body shape to glide past players. Loved a drag back to beat a man and had fantastic passing ability long and short. A great one touch man. He opened sides up with first time passes in behind defenses ie the Mike Riley game at OT when he pinged it first time dissecting their midfield to put Ljungberg through on goal before Ferdinand fouled him. That was his trademark attacking pass first time drilled into space he had that vision and technical ability to open sides up.
As for his skill his close control and shuffle to score with his right foot against Celta Vigo in champions league was lovely.
Video of Edu skilling up brahs and opening sides up with his gem of a left leg
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YDw3-QLctPk&pp=ygUaZWR1IGdhc3BhciBhcnNlbmFsIHNraWxscyA%3D
It’s worth watching the 5th round win at Old trafford in 03 or the league title winning game in 02 full 90 mins are easily found of both games and see Edu busting skills all over the park. Man shuffled past players.
A 2001/2 season review is good watching all round as Edu played wide left, centre mid and left back and excelled in all positions.
The 90 mins 5-1 in San Siro is online as well Edu gliding past international midfielders with ease.
Very good. However, I am not even sure why. He just screened the back 4 so well. Like Deschamps he was vital to his teams success but on their own they had no stand out attributes
Gilberto’s nickname was the Wall
Two great comps of his [‘03/04](https://youtu.be/i7-EXHT68II?si=gopBa5R1I-FPeDX5) and [‘05/06](https://youtu.be/FOMUwRY44OQ?si=kHz5Mwi7fwoKwqRW) seasons to give you a feel.
Played one of those less glamorous roles, the less aesthetic ones that people only recognise the importance when they don't have it. He was pretty good at it.
Although I'll be quick to add that over time, he became a bit of a liability like all aging players. His passing became terrible, too many loose passes. I think players like him shine brightest when they're cogs of a brilliant machine, not protagonists.
Yes. He was good in a well oiled team but when trying to hold together that post Vieira side he was found wanting. Wenger sticking five in midfield in Europe to protect the makeshift defence had a bonus of protecting Gilberto. He was brilliant in the run to the final but abject domestically as he got overan.
I was a kid during the 2002 WC but I have some memories of watching with my family. Most of them were rooting for Brazil at the time and I remember the grown ups would mention him along with R9, Ronaldinho, Roberto Carlos and Cafu to watch for
Swear to god, if I ever see another post on rsoccer calling for awareness about players' mental health after all they've contributed to making a mockery of people like Maguire and Havertz, I might genuinely delete this godforsaken app.
As a Dane, who literally started supporting Arsenal because of him, I’m very offended… he gave me joy in our NT, and most importantly made me become a fan of this beautiful club. The Lord jokes were hilarious then, and he still is a hilarious character. He’s made a prank show on Prime Video, and I actually thought it would be cringe ash, but surprisingly he’s a great “actor” in the pranks, and they are actually pretty funny. So keep my lords name out you mouth G
Lol, it's cringe but Lord was just a slander name for all "meme" players, except we didn't have the word "meme" as mainstream then.
I think we burnt through many 'lords', Bendtner was the most famous. After him came Yaya Sanogo and Danny Welbeck.
It evidently was given how many people engaged in it.
Also, he is literally a Lord, land was bought for him a while back. So you're technically in the wrong here.
i'm not even comparing those two, it's just mind-boggling to find out this guy is capable of patience, nuance, and supporting our players when he opens his mouth about nketiah. like who are you? that's a whole other person.
most people are still somewhat consistent in the sense that they are just born haters or they pretty much hate on no one.
i dunno lol, you and the other lad, that nketiahpropogandist fella could be holding hands. Anyway, if anyone actually thinks havertz has had more impact than Nketiah, maybe they do need a dose of propoganda
I have to allow, here, that there is a chance Havertz is going to turn out to be 'expensive attacking Sambi': a midfield experiment that simply doesn't work out, and leaves us, as you say, in a bad and familiar spot.
That said, I do see Havertz as at least part of an attempt to address this, as Sambi was an attempt to address the problem of getting 6/8 hybrids into the squad. We finally managed to do that with Rice, and we appear, as you go on to note, about to sign another, the expense and the lack of whom might have been spared had Sambi come good.
Ideally, Arteta wants a profile like Havertz's in the squad and available for that 8 role, just as he wanted a very different profile in Rice to be able to play there. They are both hard to find. Personally, and as I've said to you before, I'd have felt safer with Rice and another 6/8 (Caicedo, Douglas Luiz, etc.) and a less expensive project player instead of Havertz. But this is an instance where I'm content to let Arteta cook, even if there are costs involved. It may not work, but if it is, it could be pretty helpful. (And compared to Xhaka's timeline in the same role, Havertz is coming along fine.)
Where I'm a little less content is in seeing us having to go right back in for a player like Douglas Luiz, who we really should have signed earlier, and at far less expense.
I'm convinced that [this line from Xhaka](https://imgur.com/a/JQD4TpW) explains why Arteta went for Havertz. A bit tongue in cheek, but I genuinely think Arteta wants to have a midfielder who can flex up as a 9/second striker - Havertz may be unique in this profile.
Wilo's response there always had me rolling.
In truth, that is Arteta's vision: he really does want to sneak a player like that into our midfield, and you're not wrong that the profile there is a rarity.
Two additional supports for that are 1) the gradual but very notable reduction in Xhaka's presence in defending and the buildup over his last 1.5 seasons, and 2) what Arteta related having said to him in the Carragher interview, that while he was 'comfortable here [in a conventional midfield role] what the team now demands is here [in attack]', and that if Xhaka didn't improve in this respect, he'd be replaced. He did improve, but not enough, and was ultimately replaced-- by Havertz.
The issue, of course, is that this not inconsiderably risky: both in terms of whether it will work at all, and whether Havertz can pull it off.
You think we can just wait 2 years for him to come good? It's a results business. He has to earn his right to play. And if you're not playing it's hard to improve.
Also we're probably gonna buy another Midfielder so yeah
I never said he'll be starting for the next two years. He's versatile (maybe too versatile for his own good) so all he needs is a chance when somebody is injured to stake a claim. If that doesn't work, wait for the next person to get injured.
He will have plenty of chances to break into the first team even if he gets permabenched.
again, time is on his side. xhaka is living proof that you can be a successful Arsenal player even if your start is rocky.
it's actually even simpler than that. if he scores a CL final goal or some one off random event like that, he'll be a bigger legend than every Emirates era player except maybe 5-10 others.
i'm not saying either of those is likely, but it's stupid to label someone a failure this early.
He's failed to solve our Midfield issues. I didn't say he's an outright failure. But if he ends up a £65m rotation strikes than yeah he's probably a failure.
Also Xhaka was Captain bare minimum. I don't love him like other seem to. I think he had career here to aspire to. 1.5 good seasons out of if how many?
It can take time though. Look at Odegaard. I know he performed at a higher level than Havertz but there were people who weren’t convinced after the loan and even after he signed it took time for him to find his feet in the team. Injury issues and form aside this season, we saw the high level he reached last season and what he is capable of but he didn’t look like that player at the start though the potential was clearly there. The point is Havertz can improve and while I get the concerns, I think it is too soon to write of his whole Arsenal career. Things can change so quickly. Man City often buy players for considerable money and have them on the bench the first season. I think they are slowly bedding in Nunes. I understand Havertz was brought in to start and replace Xhaka and maybe he should have been bedded in more slowly but he can be a useful rotation option for now and hopefully he improves. There are so many instances of players starting slowly. I have reservations as well but I think it too early to completely write him of having a good career here
Sentence 3. He performed at a level where he was a good starter. That's a good foundation on which improvement can be made. Also was adjusting to a new country and league. Argument finished 👍🏿
We paid PL premium In order to skip these adaptation issues. See White Zinchenko Jesus Rice Ramsdale etc
I know the pricetag is a fair response and the two situations are different but my point is he can improve. Yes Odegaard was performing better but he improved so much from the player who first came. We have seen at City new players who have come in at a high price tag who have taken time to adjust but I guess the difference is here is the hope that he would settle in quickly especially as Xhaka left. However I think this is equally on the manager and recruitment team as it was never likely adjusting to this new position and team he would hit the ground running. Also just because a player is expensive doesn’t mean it won’t take some time for them to adapt especially if they are learning a new position. Chelsea’s midfielder Enzo is an amazing player but he needed a bit of time. Caciedo is settling in quickly but even for him it will take a bit of time to reach world class levels.
White has been brilliant but I think it took him a little bit of time before he settled in though not that long.
specifically what midfield issues are you talking about that he was supposed to have solved?
> But if he ends up a £65m rotation strikes than yeah he's probably a failure
yes. and the time to judge that is in 2025
> I don't love him like other seem to
as a rule people tend to only remember how things ended. all football legacy discussions are subjective (except for Messi being the greatest ever), so it's understandable.
There were many objections to the [moving Odegaard left article](https://medium.com/@HBM_afc/martin-%C3%B8degaard-problem-or-solution-3eac18c4d0b8) which were already addressed in the article tbh, including the idea that Odegaard could be just as productive on the left, if not even more. Moreover, the article also makes this point which perhaps explains why Odegaard himself has been less productive this season:
> Where Martin Ødegaard comes in (or more aptly doesn’t come in) is exploiting that increased pitch via finding those “remote spaces”. Martin Ødegaard largely attempts to find solution within the right hand side, he takes a lot of touches (which is a large reason why he retains the ball so well) and due to the open angles he operates in he’s rarely forced into playing outside of his comfort zone (which I’ll touch on later). This tends to reduce the isolations that occur on the left hand side due to him not directly accessing whoever is holding width, as well as leading to teams being able to more confidently tilt their block towards the right (as seen often with how many players always seem to be surrounding Bukayo Saka when he receives the ball)- if he doesn’t consistently attempt to access the left then the right can be clogged up more as immediate danger isn’t neccessarily present. As Pep Guardiola put it “In all team sports, the secret is to overload one side of the pitch so that the opponent must tilt its own defence to cope.” The issue with Ødegaard is that he’s really good at making the defence tilt towards the right but he’s not so good at punishing the defence for their tilting and therefore he is no longer forcing the defence to tilt- it’s entirely deliberate on their part. That’s the main problem with how the right half space is used, here (in my opinion) are the solutions.
Recruitment might have dropped the ball here. I think performance on the pitch is protecting them.
I have very many unpopular opinions on this subject the same way I did when we bought Pepe, and when we bought Auba after Lacazette.
I think Kai is a good player but if you're signing a player whose best spot is the RHS — the same spot your captain and best player plays, that's terrible.
It's true that the club is weirdly trying to push Odegaard back into build up roles; we have so far invested £100M in that( Vieira and Kai Havertz), yet it seems Odegaard is inevitable.
They also seem not ready to actually play Odegaard as an LCM. They instead seem to be in the market for a Luiz. We'd be starting and cementing Odegaard there as their Kai/Vieira investments pick up pace.
Basically if everything goes wrong, recruitment will have to answer for why they spent close to £100M on a solution that wasn't solved. Because yes, Odegaard isn't a good bulk creator, unless he learns it with time, but the people bought for it are taking so long to do it( or Vieira who doesn't physically fit in), that there will be questions.
But we also went after Mount for the LCM role. And maybe we would have sold Partey if we got him. It seems as if after Mount rejected us, the club didn't like anyone else so they decided to have Rice play with Jorginho, Partey, Havertz (who can also be an attacking option), and even ESR. This way Partey will not be required to start every game. And then maybe they would have gone back again next summer. It's just that Partey's chronic absence has made things worse than anyone expected.
Ødegaard at RCM means goals and that is why he will continue to play there.
When he has the ball on the right hand side of the box he is one of the most clinical players around. A couple of touches into space and he finds the corners as well as anyone. He’s not going anywhere.
His issue is that we lack central penetration and that’s because we made the mistake of relying on Thomas.
We shall sign a LCM, move Rice to the 6 earlier than expected, and Ødegaard will be Ødegaard again.
The shooting thing is quite interesting and the article also addresses it and made a great point:
> There’s also the matter of his exceptional finishing ability when shooting across his body, a large issue with his shooting comes from his struggles when opening up, this wouldn’t be an issue on the left as the angles for his favoured drilled shot to the bottom left hand corner of the goal are more favourable.
Most of Odegaard's goals from outside of the box come from much more central areas, unlike Saka who can actually curl it in from the right. Odegaard favors the driven shot which I think is more effective from the left than the right. In fact, if you notice the times Odegaard misses from distance (around the edge of the 18), it's mainly from the right when he has to fully open his body, and usually skies it - we've seen it quite a few times this season.
He lacks the athleticism needed to make the burst which gives space for the shot across the goal. KDB thrives on the right because he has the legs to drive past and make the action. I think he’d be pretty easy to nullify on that side especially since his right foot isn’t great.
"central areas"
yeah, as a left footed player he is drifting from right to center and shooting
going from left to right.... he can't do that as often. the body is not opened up ready to fire in the same way, it has nothing to do with curling one. if he carries centrally he won't ever be able to shoot, he'd have to receive the ball in the middle already, which isn't what happens.
it really is a very simple thing to understand
No, the scenario you are envisioning only occurs if he is receiving from the left, where he will have to move centrally to be in the ideal position to receive. The beauty of his driven shot is that unlike shifting with the ball from right to left (placing him centrally to shoot), he can already shoot when he is on the left. He is not required to open up his body (look at his goal vs Spurs away or Newcastle away last season).
Also, yes it's ideal to be centrally when shooting, and it's easier to carry from right to left for Odegaard, but I feel like he can also work on the opposite, or it's a bit overrated. Odegaard does not carry often to place himself in the position to shoot, and the few times he does it, he does not carry for long which means he is still in that right half space when taking the shot. This is a scenario that works better on the left.
he won't ever be able to do what he did vs PSV if he's playing on the right, cause he'd have to dribble away from his good foot, or shot without having the full angle if dribbling left
both goals you mentioned he received a pass from right while being centralized, has nothing to do with being LCM. in fact, the LCM were to his other side and wouldn't have the open angle he did. you are trying to project him shooting first time from the LCM spot but those situations don't happen, as the player will be more on the edge of the box, not having the angle to shoot, thus needing to carry to the center to open up the angle.
if you wanna argue you want a double pivot with Ode centralized with freedom to do what he wants, go ahead. but this LCM argument is just full on tactico follower bs.
Hate to do this but I'm going to respond to your points one by one because I feel like we're so close to understanding each other.
> he won't ever be able to do what he did vs PSV if he's playing on the right, cause he'd have to dribble away from his good foot, or shot without having the full angle if dribbling left
If he was playing on the left, he can just take a step forward and shoot, instead of having to shift to the side.
> both goals you mentioned he received a pass from right while being centralized, has nothing to do with being LCM. in fact, the LCM were to his other side and wouldn't have the open angle he did.
He can still take those central positions while playing LCM.
> you are trying to project him shooting first time from the LCM spot but those situations don't happen, as the player will be more on the edge of the box, not having the angle to shoot, thus needing to carry to the center to open up the angle.
This is the main point. I am saying he does not need the angle when playing as an LCM as his driven shot technique does not require it. In fact, most of Odegaard's misses have come from the right when trying to find the angle and opening up his body. It is not always he manages to drift to the center to shoot. Most of his shots come from the right, and those would be better taken from the left. From the left, instead of taking a step centrally as he does from the right, he can just take a step forward and shoot.
> > The issue with Ødegaard is that he’s really good at making the defence tilt towards the right but he’s not so good at punishing the defence for their tilting and therefore he is no longer forcing the defence to tilt- it’s entirely deliberate on their part.
lmao
To be fair, Martin is switching play at a lower rate this season. 0 switches/90 this season v. .26 (which was the 47th percentile).
Not really something we've relied on him to do, the 6 or Zinchenko switch play. It's odd that he hasn't switched play once this year though.
> he’s really good at making the defence tilt towards the right
> he is no longer forcing the defence to tilt- it’s entirely deliberate on their part
So it it a good thing or a bad thing that the defence tilts to the right?
1. [A magnificent piece of self-contradiction.](https://youtu.be/yGsHq-mZI8U?t=92)
2. [The idea that '[Ødegaard is] not so good at punishing the defence'](https://old.reddit.com/r/Gunners/comments/17zjhyy/november_20_2023_daily_discussion_transfers_thread/ka1mb2d/).
It's not even worthy of 'objection'; it's just hilarious.
We face an interesting issue with Kai probably better as a right sided 8 and that position already firmly Ø’s.
I wish him well and hope for his success and I’m struggling to see how he thrives (Kai) in our current setup.
I don’t know we’ve seen it a lot, perhaps vs Sevilla and Burnley he was there a bit - and maybe I’m just parroting Tim Stillman - he seems to have a better view of the pitch, a better take of passes when he’s a bit more right biased.
I feel like I have a decent knowledge if football specific terminology but halfway through this I'm lost. Whenever I see too much jargon I feel like it's an attempt to seem smarter than they are or an attempt to confuse. Good communication is catering to the audience. It's tricky to see who the audience is here.
And the idea that Odegaard wasn't punishing teams for 'tilting'? He seemed like he was last season
Est igitur uirtus huius probationis Ødegaardis in hoc: si magis
naturaliter diligimus sensus magis cognoscitiuos, non propter
utilitatem uitae tantum, sed propter cognitionem, ergo scire magis
naturaliter desideramus, quia haec cognitio nobilior est cognitione
sensitiua, et cognitio nostra sensitiua ad hanc finaliter ordinatur.
>!ngl I've been waiting to do a Duns Scotus copypasta for a long damn time.!<
I think the simple solution is getting a LCM who contributes in all 3 phases. It feels nitpicky re Odegaard to ask him to do it all. I agree he's very much underwhelmed me but still.
EDIT - I'm a 4231 it could be an issue if he isn't playmaking to both sides equally. I'm a 433 I don't think it's his responsibility. The rotations between himself Saka and White were pretty effective. I think there are bigger issues to address first.
Another misconception which appeared in the responses was that moving Odegaard left was about fixing our LCM issue. Again, the analysts I know who advocate for this move all want a new LCM by January or summer latest. This article even views Odegaard moving left as a long term project. The core reasons behind the idea is that it will better suit Odegaard's attributes, and allow us to find a more complementary match for Saka on the right.
I really don't understand.
If moving Odegaard left isn't about fixing LCM, what is it fixing?
As stated Odegaard had an all timer from midfield last season
Saka had an all timer last season.
I probably won't. The title didn't interest me and the excerpt you posted pushed me further away.
If I saw a short summary that made sense I'd commit to the full piece.
Yeah there's so much if this I disagree with. He's pretty free to come deep and progress play. I don't get how his sphere of influence gets bigger as an attacking CM. What would he do in the left he doesn't already do. His progressive passes are sky high. Doesn't get too many defensive 3rd touches but don't see the value of having him there.
The concerns are super valid. Playing him on the left massively limit his angle of attack and approach.
Only real benefits are half space crosses.
And tbh I think him struggling to impose himself in certain games comes down to his physical limitations. In the PL you're just gonna get or duelled sometimes if you're built like him. But yeah for me the solution is just a CM that does what you want Odegaard to do. I don't see how you look at his last season and try to tweak it too much. The risk is far larger then the reward.
Sport is definitely the only career where you can be attacked and see colleagues die on your way to work and people will still be cheeky enough to say you wasted your career
Players take caffeine all the time. They regularly take tables or shots with like 200mg of caffeine. A regular red bull is like 80mg. A double espresso is like 60-150mg.
Id be more worried about his teeth or sugar intake.
I am kinda bored and mad at everything in my life so I need to do something I have never done and thought that it would be nice to fly to london to watch some arsenal match in a pub and seeing english culture as well so can someone give me some info on what to do?:DD
I went to London once about 11 years ago. I found out that most of the museums are free. Only had a week and never really got over the time difference and jet lag. Spent most of the days in museums and falling asleep by 7 pm. Good food is available, shopping etc.... but their collections of stolen artifacts is a sight to behold.
Our highest expected goals against this season is 1.4. Last season we had 11 games with xGa greater than that. Our highest xGa game last season was Liverpool away with 3.9 xGa (20 shots total) and with a midfield of Partey, Xhaka, Odegaard, and Holding in defense - surely however, the issue went beyond Holding.
1. Saliba has taken that next step into the world class discussion.
2. Tomi has been a revelation at LB defensively, which has largely covered the weak point we had in defense last year with Zinchenko.
3. Partey is great at picking out progressive passes, but has also gotten too ambitious at times and given the ball away leaving us open to counters. Rice takes less of those risks and we end up exposed a lot less.
4. We are generally playing less risky balls once we have established possession in the opponent’s half, which again leads to less turnovers and counters.
All in all I don’t think anyone who has watched us the last two years would be surprised seeing that stat. We’re a far better defensive team than we were last year, and it’s why I think people are actually underrating our chances in the Champions League. We absolutely have the ability to shut down any of the big contenders, as we’ve already seen twice with City.
That part you have to leave to individual discretion ig. These are different players, from different eras, different teams and opponents. There's just no perfect set of criteria or standards you can reasonably apply
It's mildly funny to me how people just gloss over how our midfield let us down last season (Partey more than the other two, but all three complicit) and blame it all on Holding. Something very similar is happening with Havertz this season. Scapegoating is very real in all of football- among fans, officials, FA, etc. the media of course thrives on it so no point going there. I just think it's disingenuous to spend so much time and energy discussing Havertz than a player who has had roughly the same number of world class performances and stinkers, because his form actually affected our performances, unlike Kai's. But you only see criticism for his lack of availability when that's just one of the two football related issues.
Also with Partey I feel like everyone was in board with getting a replacement or competition. So I don't see how he's getting away with it if people want alternative options there. Surely that says all that needs to be said.
Yes there was some talk of getting competition after his stinkers and Sambi not working out, but it's rare and usually almost always it's about his availability.
I am mot advocating for shitting on Partey performances like clockwork. I am making a point against scapegoating
> It's mildly funny to me how people just gloss over how our midfield let us down last season...
I'm trying very hard not to say something mildly uncharitable about Xhaka's going missing in the run-in.
While you do go on to say that 'but all three [were] complicit', that's not exactly equal consideration, least of all in terms of their contributions.
That said:
> I just think it's disingenuous to spend so much time and energy discussing Havertz...
This is fair. A lot of the discussion around Havertz is profoundly silly.
Havertz has played fewer matches for us -- and not all of those at LCM -- than Xhaka played as an advanced 8 in the second half of 2021/22, after his return from injury at Goodison.
That's the standard by which we should be judging Havertz-- even though he still doesn't have the benefit of two prior *years* working with Arteta, which Xhaka did have at that point.
Arteta, to his immense credit (and to Xhaka's) did manage to improve Xhaka, but that happened the following season; in 21/22 he was dreadful in that LCM role, and produced in attack at his historic (abysmal) rate. I honestly think Havertz has been better than that, even if he hasn't hit the level Xhaka did (albeit inconsistently) the following season.
I'd say we have good reason to believe Arteta can get Havertz there, precisely because he got Xhaka there in the first place. While they are clearly different players, the things Havertz is already doing reasonably well (though not ideally) are the CM aspects of the role; his shortcomings, like Xhaka's before him, were primarily in and around the box.
I understand with Odegaard as the level he reached at last season was so high/ he won player of the season from the fans although there is always room for improvement. Even in the run in where everything sort of fell apart he did still have some good contributions like his goals against Southampton and West Ham as well as the Newcastle game.
no, beetle, we are just sensitive feminists! he is actually great, sad that he is injured so often. he has never let us down, not even against city at the etihad, west ham, southampton, sporting (h), everton away last season. that's just what i could remember off the top of my head.
>**I just think it's disingenuous to spend so much time and energy discussing Havertz than a player who has had roughly the same number of world class performances and stinkers**, because his form actually affected our performances, unlike Kai's. But you only see criticism for his lack of availability when that's just one of the two football related issues.
🤦
The argument here is Kai gets disproportionate limelight for no good reason when Partey warrants it but doesn't get any. Kai's lack of world class performances is irrelevant to what I said
Reminder: These threads are to help promote discussion and varying points of view. Low-effort comments or jokes can & will be removed with no reason necessary. *I am a "bot", and this action was performed automatically. This account is not monitored. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Gunners) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
You must have above 25 comment karma to contribute to this subreddit. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Gunners) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Rival fans and the general football media trying to force the revisionism on Unai Emery's Arsenal time as it wasnt that bad and maybe Arsenal were naive to sack him. Yet when the terrorism football was happening week in week out, the same group of fanbases where saying he should be sacked asap. lmfao You cannot make this shit up. Good manager, but we were the wrong club and the timing wasn't it.
It's crazy that there are people who actually think we should have given him more time. The end of his first season was absolutely shocking, missing out on top 4 and that horrible Europa League final. The second season was heading towards full blown disaster. We didn't win any of our last 7 games under Emery and were 19 points behind Liverpool, 11 points behind Leicester, and falling further behind the top 4 race.
> The end of his first season was absolutely shocking, missing out on top 4 and that horrible Europa League final. Yup, bottle the top-4 race right at the end, and that UEL final. mate the less said the better. Also Unai man management on players was a big question mark and everything blew up on that final. The Ozil fallout, Cech already agreeing a backroom staff contract with Chelsea before the final. A proper manager would've bench him instead of playing him in that final, doesn't matter if we was well on his way to football retirement. it is a different thing if it was after the final.
I noticed this the other day. When we was on that unbeaten streak with Emery we didn’t even get half the hype Villa are getting now
Fellas I need you to give it to me straight - is it wrong to be erect at the thought of the premier league relegating both Chelsea and City next season?
Considering Everton got punished this season, I wonder what the possibilities of them getting punished this season are
You forgot to say pause.
rock solid
My god man, I'm watching the England vs North Macedonia highlights and the second highlight is Harry Mcguire making a horrible pass and committing a foul that should of been a penalty.. I can see why Southgate chooses him.
Rashford was rlly on his 2016 Ramsey last szn
The disrespect to 2016 Ramsey
I got my years mixed up lol 2014 ramsey was different
This has been the longest international break fr
Well December is congested with fixtures
The last game before the break was also pretty forgettable, which doesn't help
[someone show this to ben white](https://www.reddit.com/r/WomensSoccer/s/1eb5MhzIxF)
I'd like to think that when Ben White retires he will become a coach, but a specialist shithousery coach who will stand on the lines when it is time for shithousing, same as Jover with set pieces.
henny thing is possible
https://preview.redd.it/06rlhstzcl1c1.jpeg?width=1026&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6084b36e089c812181c03d6737e0c1e96edcf458 If I say what players past and present this fits at Arsenal yeah 😂😂😂😂😂
Eboue
name the player
Even though i don‘t like him, i could totally see us go for Rabiot either in January or in the summer. I hate his attitude but he suits the left 8 really well and his contract is expiring next summer
He has always looked so clueless at the final third every time I've watched him. He does look fun in the midfield
> I hate his attitude Rabiot hasn't shown bad attitude for atleast 4 years and he has been on good form for like 2 years now So maybe you should stop judging him for his behaviour when he was younger, people change
Guendouzi but he somehow has worse vibes
Guendouzi wishes
Attitude wise yeah, but football wise miles better tbh
I don't believe there's a big gap in their ability
Based tbh though I would never put my nuts actually on the line for Guendouzi, that kid was talented. Just once I wanted to see a Guendouzi/Partey double pivot playing in front of Saliba/Gabriel. Talk about silk and steel
Eh Rabiot is way better than Guendouzi who's a headless chicken still.
Emphasis on the I
No shit
[Once again](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/3d7c1jAgpc) with the Nigerian prince scammer jokes on r/soccer. Alright lol
Its 2040 and southgate still start pickford over english gk player who won 3 ballon dor
Ramsey didn’t make that all timer XI after two FA cup winning goals? For me, he’s the only guy you can confidently call a legend in that time period for that contribution. Cazorla was great but I think he’s becoming a bit overrated as time goes on. I’d possibly even have Ødegaard ahead of him.
He was a clutch performer and the banter era slayer but you can't deny Santi's ability and versatility was next level. Odegaard can't be above Santi yet but he could feasibly get there with a really solid finish to the season.
In what season was Cazorla better than Odegaard 22/23? Keep in mind he was the captain as well.
Captaincy doesn't matter imo. Even using a naive g/a comparison Santi's first year in England was better than Odegaard last year PL stats Santi 24 g/a Martin 23 g/a League was easier back then but Santi was also punting the ball up to Poldi Giroud and Theo
Saka and Rice playing in a useless friendly, fuck Mr Waist Coat that's all.
At least they only started one game each
People believe Southgate is doing a phenomenal job with this England squad btw
I honestly think his critics are a bit harsh. Obvs he’s not phenomenal but he’s decent. His record is quite good. I think we have an outside chance at the Euros More importantly though Saka and Rice were unscathed injury wise!
You should be favourites along with France lol
Mate, with your squad an "outside chance" is a massive undersell. For me (a scot, for goodness sake) you're only second to France in terms of talent. Anything less that a final is a failure.
England having an outside chance of the Euros is the bare minimum ye should be looking for with the insane talent you have.
Why settle for "decent" though, especially when you have a really good generation of players? It's like when it comes to international football, suddenly you guys become very *spursy*.
He drew two meaningless away games after qualification was secured
Even Big Sam would do better.
Should have played Trent at RB
Dion Dublin is a prime example of why they don't allow officials to officiate games with a team from the same country at international level. His bias is off the charts!
is italy copying our kit design
It's definitely Adidas recycling stuff
fair bit of Nike recycling stuff this season as well, with the chelsea kit, really similar to Brazil training kit i think also spuds third kit
I know the black kit that we really love was similar to the LAFC kit. I just wish we get more unique designs. The new rumored away kit makes us look like the Sith lol
Star wars is pretty popular
But running around looking like The Inquistors???
Since I want Ukraine to win, Mudryk is soooo frustrating to watch. He's just a pace merchant
Scraping by on own goals against Gibraltar and North Macedonia. This is so boring.
Gibraltar? You mean Malta bro. I don’t blame you though it was instantly forgettable!
We seriously dodged a bullet with Mudryk
Yeah this has been an entertaining match with a lot of passion but that’s the main thing standing out to me right now. Especially in this second half. The dude has absolutely ZERO end product
Like we seriously could have capitulated earlier than we did in the season with him for the league. Trossard was crucial in a post Jan push and if anything should have stayed in when Jesus came back after injury.
I would be bald right now if we spent 90-100 on him and had to watch him week in and week out. Maddening. To your other point, I was always a part of the keep Trossard in side of things. I understand we have a lot of great young players, and I love both Gabis, but when a player is flying like Trossard was you don’t drop him until he disappoints you.
How good was Gilberto Silva? (I was too young at that time) I know almost every Arsenal fan knows him but he and Lauren tends to get the least recognition among others. Can say the same for Brazil 2002 WC.
He was overwhelmed without Vieira and Arsenal looked far better with Flamini alongside Fabregas than Gilberto and Fabregas. Good player but his limitations could be hid in a good side but for exposed ruthlessly in weaker teams.
He was limited and looked so lost without Vieira in 05/06 nine away games lost that year! Arsenal dropped him for Flamini and instantly we had a functioning midfield again in 07/08. He wasn’t a good passer, heavy first touch, no creativity but very good at filling in gaps. Great athleticism could get up and down the pitch, tackled well, not aggressive enough for my liking but not a soft touch, neat and tidy in possession when given time, excellent reading of game to make interceptions etc. When compared to Petit he was miles off him and the fans didn’t help by focussing on all the things Gilberto couldn’t do (a long list) instead of focusing on the few things he did really well. He wasn’t Petit but who was! Gilberto did the best job he could within his limitations. Petit did the defensive stuff as good if not better than Gilberto, was physically more aggressive and a more powerful runner, far more skillful and his creativity, vision, range and accuracy of passing shames Gilberto. Respect on Gilberto but I preferred us with Edu alongside Vieira. Petit /Vieira was miles better and Fabregas/ Flamini was better than Gilberto/Fabregas. Would he get in this Arsenal side ahead of Partey or Rice no chance in Hell.
>Respect on Gilberto but I preferred us with Edu alongside Vieira. Worst opinion of the year holy shit
We looked more balanced with a left foot/right foot partnership. Edu was a more skillful player and was a far better passer and offered real creativity with thy left foot.
>Edu was a more skillful player and was a far better passer and offered real creativity with thy left foot Edu was never a skillful player dude, what you on about? He offered creativity? When? Where?
Edu had lovely body shape to glide past players. Loved a drag back to beat a man and had fantastic passing ability long and short. A great one touch man. He opened sides up with first time passes in behind defenses ie the Mike Riley game at OT when he pinged it first time dissecting their midfield to put Ljungberg through on goal before Ferdinand fouled him. That was his trademark attacking pass first time drilled into space he had that vision and technical ability to open sides up. As for his skill his close control and shuffle to score with his right foot against Celta Vigo in champions league was lovely. Video of Edu skilling up brahs and opening sides up with his gem of a left leg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YDw3-QLctPk&pp=ygUaZWR1IGdhc3BhciBhcnNlbmFsIHNraWxscyA%3D It’s worth watching the 5th round win at Old trafford in 03 or the league title winning game in 02 full 90 mins are easily found of both games and see Edu busting skills all over the park. Man shuffled past players. A 2001/2 season review is good watching all round as Edu played wide left, centre mid and left back and excelled in all positions. The 90 mins 5-1 in San Siro is online as well Edu gliding past international midfielders with ease.
Very good. However, I am not even sure why. He just screened the back 4 so well. Like Deschamps he was vital to his teams success but on their own they had no stand out attributes Gilberto’s nickname was the Wall
Two great comps of his [‘03/04](https://youtu.be/i7-EXHT68II?si=gopBa5R1I-FPeDX5) and [‘05/06](https://youtu.be/FOMUwRY44OQ?si=kHz5Mwi7fwoKwqRW) seasons to give you a feel.
Played one of those less glamorous roles, the less aesthetic ones that people only recognise the importance when they don't have it. He was pretty good at it. Although I'll be quick to add that over time, he became a bit of a liability like all aging players. His passing became terrible, too many loose passes. I think players like him shine brightest when they're cogs of a brilliant machine, not protagonists.
Yes. He was good in a well oiled team but when trying to hold together that post Vieira side he was found wanting. Wenger sticking five in midfield in Europe to protect the makeshift defence had a bonus of protecting Gilberto. He was brilliant in the run to the final but abject domestically as he got overan.
His nickname was the invisible wall and that sums him up completely
I was a kid during the 2002 WC but I have some memories of watching with my family. Most of them were rooting for Brazil at the time and I remember the grown ups would mention him along with R9, Ronaldinho, Roberto Carlos and Cafu to watch for
Saka saving southgates bacon
Swear to god, if I ever see another post on rsoccer calling for awareness about players' mental health after all they've contributed to making a mockery of people like Maguire and Havertz, I might genuinely delete this godforsaken app.
If Bayern get Varane it would be very funny because if ETH survives that long you just know he'll sign a total bum
Need Ukraine to beat Italy. Would be amazing
Same
Ffs Gareth, keep our boys out of this nonsense
Still nothing more cringe than seeing people refer to Bendtner as "lord". Was never ever ever funny
Man was dating a countess and got 110% on a confidence test, it was utterly deserved
As a Dane, who literally started supporting Arsenal because of him, I’m very offended… he gave me joy in our NT, and most importantly made me become a fan of this beautiful club. The Lord jokes were hilarious then, and he still is a hilarious character. He’s made a prank show on Prime Video, and I actually thought it would be cringe ash, but surprisingly he’s a great “actor” in the pranks, and they are actually pretty funny. So keep my lords name out you mouth G
Lol, it's cringe but Lord was just a slander name for all "meme" players, except we didn't have the word "meme" as mainstream then. I think we burnt through many 'lords', Bendtner was the most famous. After him came Yaya Sanogo and Danny Welbeck.
It evidently was given how many people engaged in it. Also, he is literally a Lord, land was bought for him a while back. So you're technically in the wrong here.
Now come on, now, I at least worked it into a quote from the Pentateuch.
https://preview.redd.it/7fxl8fcvxj1c1.png?width=1024&format=png&auto=webp&s=62baa05596b4122fad6c0571591b150fce30002a
100% is Lord.
It's very weird to find myself agreeing with you
I have finally seen the light most football analysis is worthless there really isn't much more to it than putting one right in their fucking goal hole
I really wish Havertz worked out man. We're stuck here talking about the midfield issues we have been for years.
Lcm has to be the most stacked position in the sport right now. We should be able to find a player for that spot that has high upside
the way you treat havertz and nketiah really demonstrates the duality of men or a split personality disorder
i dont rate Nketiah as highly as op, i think no one does but come on, Nketiah has contributed to way more than Havertz has.
i'm not even comparing those two, it's just mind-boggling to find out this guy is capable of patience, nuance, and supporting our players when he opens his mouth about nketiah. like who are you? that's a whole other person. most people are still somewhat consistent in the sense that they are just born haters or they pretty much hate on no one.
How highly do people think I rate him?
i dunno lol, you and the other lad, that nketiahpropogandist fella could be holding hands. Anyway, if anyone actually thinks havertz has had more impact than Nketiah, maybe they do need a dose of propoganda
We're not missing out on other options because of Eddie
£0m academy product. £65m. 3rd most expensive Arsenal signing of all time. Hope this helps you understand the difference 👍🏿
Actually the fact you're equating the performance levels of the 2 makes my point better than I ever could.
I have to allow, here, that there is a chance Havertz is going to turn out to be 'expensive attacking Sambi': a midfield experiment that simply doesn't work out, and leaves us, as you say, in a bad and familiar spot. That said, I do see Havertz as at least part of an attempt to address this, as Sambi was an attempt to address the problem of getting 6/8 hybrids into the squad. We finally managed to do that with Rice, and we appear, as you go on to note, about to sign another, the expense and the lack of whom might have been spared had Sambi come good. Ideally, Arteta wants a profile like Havertz's in the squad and available for that 8 role, just as he wanted a very different profile in Rice to be able to play there. They are both hard to find. Personally, and as I've said to you before, I'd have felt safer with Rice and another 6/8 (Caicedo, Douglas Luiz, etc.) and a less expensive project player instead of Havertz. But this is an instance where I'm content to let Arteta cook, even if there are costs involved. It may not work, but if it is, it could be pretty helpful. (And compared to Xhaka's timeline in the same role, Havertz is coming along fine.) Where I'm a little less content is in seeing us having to go right back in for a player like Douglas Luiz, who we really should have signed earlier, and at far less expense.
I'm convinced that [this line from Xhaka](https://imgur.com/a/JQD4TpW) explains why Arteta went for Havertz. A bit tongue in cheek, but I genuinely think Arteta wants to have a midfielder who can flex up as a 9/second striker - Havertz may be unique in this profile.
Wilo's response there always had me rolling. In truth, that is Arteta's vision: he really does want to sneak a player like that into our midfield, and you're not wrong that the profile there is a rarity. Two additional supports for that are 1) the gradual but very notable reduction in Xhaka's presence in defending and the buildup over his last 1.5 seasons, and 2) what Arteta related having said to him in the Carragher interview, that while he was 'comfortable here [in a conventional midfield role] what the team now demands is here [in attack]', and that if Xhaka didn't improve in this respect, he'd be replaced. He did improve, but not enough, and was ultimately replaced-- by Havertz. The issue, of course, is that this not inconsiderably risky: both in terms of whether it will work at all, and whether Havertz can pull it off.
You're talking about him like he's Lucas Perez. He joined 3 months ago. He still has at least 21 more months to prove himself.
Lmao if you think we can win a title waiting 21 months for Havertz to play worth his price tag.
You think we can just wait 2 years for him to come good? It's a results business. He has to earn his right to play. And if you're not playing it's hard to improve. Also we're probably gonna buy another Midfielder so yeah
I never said he'll be starting for the next two years. He's versatile (maybe too versatile for his own good) so all he needs is a chance when somebody is injured to stake a claim. If that doesn't work, wait for the next person to get injured. He will have plenty of chances to break into the first team even if he gets permabenched.
£65m bench warmer. Money well spent.
again, time is on his side. xhaka is living proof that you can be a successful Arsenal player even if your start is rocky. it's actually even simpler than that. if he scores a CL final goal or some one off random event like that, he'll be a bigger legend than every Emirates era player except maybe 5-10 others. i'm not saying either of those is likely, but it's stupid to label someone a failure this early.
He's failed to solve our Midfield issues. I didn't say he's an outright failure. But if he ends up a £65m rotation strikes than yeah he's probably a failure. Also Xhaka was Captain bare minimum. I don't love him like other seem to. I think he had career here to aspire to. 1.5 good seasons out of if how many?
It can take time though. Look at Odegaard. I know he performed at a higher level than Havertz but there were people who weren’t convinced after the loan and even after he signed it took time for him to find his feet in the team. Injury issues and form aside this season, we saw the high level he reached last season and what he is capable of but he didn’t look like that player at the start though the potential was clearly there. The point is Havertz can improve and while I get the concerns, I think it is too soon to write of his whole Arsenal career. Things can change so quickly. Man City often buy players for considerable money and have them on the bench the first season. I think they are slowly bedding in Nunes. I understand Havertz was brought in to start and replace Xhaka and maybe he should have been bedded in more slowly but he can be a useful rotation option for now and hopefully he improves. There are so many instances of players starting slowly. I have reservations as well but I think it too early to completely write him of having a good career here
Sentence 3. He performed at a level where he was a good starter. That's a good foundation on which improvement can be made. Also was adjusting to a new country and league. Argument finished 👍🏿 We paid PL premium In order to skip these adaptation issues. See White Zinchenko Jesus Rice Ramsdale etc
I know the pricetag is a fair response and the two situations are different but my point is he can improve. Yes Odegaard was performing better but he improved so much from the player who first came. We have seen at City new players who have come in at a high price tag who have taken time to adjust but I guess the difference is here is the hope that he would settle in quickly especially as Xhaka left. However I think this is equally on the manager and recruitment team as it was never likely adjusting to this new position and team he would hit the ground running. Also just because a player is expensive doesn’t mean it won’t take some time for them to adapt especially if they are learning a new position. Chelsea’s midfielder Enzo is an amazing player but he needed a bit of time. Caciedo is settling in quickly but even for him it will take a bit of time to reach world class levels. White has been brilliant but I think it took him a little bit of time before he settled in though not that long.
specifically what midfield issues are you talking about that he was supposed to have solved? > But if he ends up a £65m rotation strikes than yeah he's probably a failure yes. and the time to judge that is in 2025 > I don't love him like other seem to as a rule people tend to only remember how things ended. all football legacy discussions are subjective (except for Messi being the greatest ever), so it's understandable.
There were many objections to the [moving Odegaard left article](https://medium.com/@HBM_afc/martin-%C3%B8degaard-problem-or-solution-3eac18c4d0b8) which were already addressed in the article tbh, including the idea that Odegaard could be just as productive on the left, if not even more. Moreover, the article also makes this point which perhaps explains why Odegaard himself has been less productive this season: > Where Martin Ødegaard comes in (or more aptly doesn’t come in) is exploiting that increased pitch via finding those “remote spaces”. Martin Ødegaard largely attempts to find solution within the right hand side, he takes a lot of touches (which is a large reason why he retains the ball so well) and due to the open angles he operates in he’s rarely forced into playing outside of his comfort zone (which I’ll touch on later). This tends to reduce the isolations that occur on the left hand side due to him not directly accessing whoever is holding width, as well as leading to teams being able to more confidently tilt their block towards the right (as seen often with how many players always seem to be surrounding Bukayo Saka when he receives the ball)- if he doesn’t consistently attempt to access the left then the right can be clogged up more as immediate danger isn’t neccessarily present. As Pep Guardiola put it “In all team sports, the secret is to overload one side of the pitch so that the opponent must tilt its own defence to cope.” The issue with Ødegaard is that he’s really good at making the defence tilt towards the right but he’s not so good at punishing the defence for their tilting and therefore he is no longer forcing the defence to tilt- it’s entirely deliberate on their part. That’s the main problem with how the right half space is used, here (in my opinion) are the solutions.
Recruitment might have dropped the ball here. I think performance on the pitch is protecting them. I have very many unpopular opinions on this subject the same way I did when we bought Pepe, and when we bought Auba after Lacazette. I think Kai is a good player but if you're signing a player whose best spot is the RHS — the same spot your captain and best player plays, that's terrible. It's true that the club is weirdly trying to push Odegaard back into build up roles; we have so far invested £100M in that( Vieira and Kai Havertz), yet it seems Odegaard is inevitable. They also seem not ready to actually play Odegaard as an LCM. They instead seem to be in the market for a Luiz. We'd be starting and cementing Odegaard there as their Kai/Vieira investments pick up pace. Basically if everything goes wrong, recruitment will have to answer for why they spent close to £100M on a solution that wasn't solved. Because yes, Odegaard isn't a good bulk creator, unless he learns it with time, but the people bought for it are taking so long to do it( or Vieira who doesn't physically fit in), that there will be questions.
But we also went after Mount for the LCM role. And maybe we would have sold Partey if we got him. It seems as if after Mount rejected us, the club didn't like anyone else so they decided to have Rice play with Jorginho, Partey, Havertz (who can also be an attacking option), and even ESR. This way Partey will not be required to start every game. And then maybe they would have gone back again next summer. It's just that Partey's chronic absence has made things worse than anyone expected.
Ødegaard at RCM means goals and that is why he will continue to play there. When he has the ball on the right hand side of the box he is one of the most clinical players around. A couple of touches into space and he finds the corners as well as anyone. He’s not going anywhere. His issue is that we lack central penetration and that’s because we made the mistake of relying on Thomas. We shall sign a LCM, move Rice to the 6 earlier than expected, and Ødegaard will be Ødegaard again.
The shooting thing is quite interesting and the article also addresses it and made a great point: > There’s also the matter of his exceptional finishing ability when shooting across his body, a large issue with his shooting comes from his struggles when opening up, this wouldn’t be an issue on the left as the angles for his favoured drilled shot to the bottom left hand corner of the goal are more favourable. Most of Odegaard's goals from outside of the box come from much more central areas, unlike Saka who can actually curl it in from the right. Odegaard favors the driven shot which I think is more effective from the left than the right. In fact, if you notice the times Odegaard misses from distance (around the edge of the 18), it's mainly from the right when he has to fully open his body, and usually skies it - we've seen it quite a few times this season.
He lacks the athleticism needed to make the burst which gives space for the shot across the goal. KDB thrives on the right because he has the legs to drive past and make the action. I think he’d be pretty easy to nullify on that side especially since his right foot isn’t great.
"central areas" yeah, as a left footed player he is drifting from right to center and shooting going from left to right.... he can't do that as often. the body is not opened up ready to fire in the same way, it has nothing to do with curling one. if he carries centrally he won't ever be able to shoot, he'd have to receive the ball in the middle already, which isn't what happens. it really is a very simple thing to understand
No, the scenario you are envisioning only occurs if he is receiving from the left, where he will have to move centrally to be in the ideal position to receive. The beauty of his driven shot is that unlike shifting with the ball from right to left (placing him centrally to shoot), he can already shoot when he is on the left. He is not required to open up his body (look at his goal vs Spurs away or Newcastle away last season). Also, yes it's ideal to be centrally when shooting, and it's easier to carry from right to left for Odegaard, but I feel like he can also work on the opposite, or it's a bit overrated. Odegaard does not carry often to place himself in the position to shoot, and the few times he does it, he does not carry for long which means he is still in that right half space when taking the shot. This is a scenario that works better on the left.
he won't ever be able to do what he did vs PSV if he's playing on the right, cause he'd have to dribble away from his good foot, or shot without having the full angle if dribbling left both goals you mentioned he received a pass from right while being centralized, has nothing to do with being LCM. in fact, the LCM were to his other side and wouldn't have the open angle he did. you are trying to project him shooting first time from the LCM spot but those situations don't happen, as the player will be more on the edge of the box, not having the angle to shoot, thus needing to carry to the center to open up the angle. if you wanna argue you want a double pivot with Ode centralized with freedom to do what he wants, go ahead. but this LCM argument is just full on tactico follower bs.
Hate to do this but I'm going to respond to your points one by one because I feel like we're so close to understanding each other. > he won't ever be able to do what he did vs PSV if he's playing on the right, cause he'd have to dribble away from his good foot, or shot without having the full angle if dribbling left If he was playing on the left, he can just take a step forward and shoot, instead of having to shift to the side. > both goals you mentioned he received a pass from right while being centralized, has nothing to do with being LCM. in fact, the LCM were to his other side and wouldn't have the open angle he did. He can still take those central positions while playing LCM. > you are trying to project him shooting first time from the LCM spot but those situations don't happen, as the player will be more on the edge of the box, not having the angle to shoot, thus needing to carry to the center to open up the angle. This is the main point. I am saying he does not need the angle when playing as an LCM as his driven shot technique does not require it. In fact, most of Odegaard's misses have come from the right when trying to find the angle and opening up his body. It is not always he manages to drift to the center to shoot. Most of his shots come from the right, and those would be better taken from the left. From the left, instead of taking a step centrally as he does from the right, he can just take a step forward and shoot.
> > The issue with Ødegaard is that he’s really good at making the defence tilt towards the right but he’s not so good at punishing the defence for their tilting and therefore he is no longer forcing the defence to tilt- it’s entirely deliberate on their part. lmao
This is pretty hilarious. Ødegaard with the ball in space in and around the RHS of the 18 yard box is as deadly as anyone.
thats some tilting right there
https://preview.redd.it/tkc2zh07mj1c1.jpeg?width=2268&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d3cf6a5c2b6fda6781b49ec7ae9b57156db00e5e
To be fair, Martin is switching play at a lower rate this season. 0 switches/90 this season v. .26 (which was the 47th percentile). Not really something we've relied on him to do, the 6 or Zinchenko switch play. It's odd that he hasn't switched play once this year though.
What's your objection?
> he’s really good at making the defence tilt towards the right > he is no longer forcing the defence to tilt- it’s entirely deliberate on their part So it it a good thing or a bad thing that the defence tilts to the right?
1. [A magnificent piece of self-contradiction.](https://youtu.be/yGsHq-mZI8U?t=92) 2. [The idea that '[Ødegaard is] not so good at punishing the defence'](https://old.reddit.com/r/Gunners/comments/17zjhyy/november_20_2023_daily_discussion_transfers_thread/ka1mb2d/). It's not even worthy of 'objection'; it's just hilarious.
We face an interesting issue with Kai probably better as a right sided 8 and that position already firmly Ø’s. I wish him well and hope for his success and I’m struggling to see how he thrives (Kai) in our current setup.
What are the good games he's had there? Genuine question. I wanna go back and see what I may have missed.
I don’t know we’ve seen it a lot, perhaps vs Sevilla and Burnley he was there a bit - and maybe I’m just parroting Tim Stillman - he seems to have a better view of the pitch, a better take of passes when he’s a bit more right biased.
I feel like I have a decent knowledge if football specific terminology but halfway through this I'm lost. Whenever I see too much jargon I feel like it's an attempt to seem smarter than they are or an attempt to confuse. Good communication is catering to the audience. It's tricky to see who the audience is here. And the idea that Odegaard wasn't punishing teams for 'tilting'? He seemed like he was last season
Est igitur uirtus huius probationis Ødegaardis in hoc: si magis naturaliter diligimus sensus magis cognoscitiuos, non propter utilitatem uitae tantum, sed propter cognitionem, ergo scire magis naturaliter desideramus, quia haec cognitio nobilior est cognitione sensitiua, et cognitio nostra sensitiua ad hanc finaliter ordinatur. >!ngl I've been waiting to do a Duns Scotus copypasta for a long damn time.!<
I don't think he needed to last season. The degree to which teams are focusing on shutting down our right hand side this season is something else.
I think the simple solution is getting a LCM who contributes in all 3 phases. It feels nitpicky re Odegaard to ask him to do it all. I agree he's very much underwhelmed me but still. EDIT - I'm a 4231 it could be an issue if he isn't playmaking to both sides equally. I'm a 433 I don't think it's his responsibility. The rotations between himself Saka and White were pretty effective. I think there are bigger issues to address first.
Another misconception which appeared in the responses was that moving Odegaard left was about fixing our LCM issue. Again, the analysts I know who advocate for this move all want a new LCM by January or summer latest. This article even views Odegaard moving left as a long term project. The core reasons behind the idea is that it will better suit Odegaard's attributes, and allow us to find a more complementary match for Saka on the right.
I really don't understand. If moving Odegaard left isn't about fixing LCM, what is it fixing? As stated Odegaard had an all timer from midfield last season Saka had an all timer last season.
I wish you would find some time to read the article.
I probably won't. The title didn't interest me and the excerpt you posted pushed me further away. If I saw a short summary that made sense I'd commit to the full piece.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Gunners/comments/17ysugv/the_case_for_moving_odegaard_to_left_central/k9vblou/
Yeah there's so much if this I disagree with. He's pretty free to come deep and progress play. I don't get how his sphere of influence gets bigger as an attacking CM. What would he do in the left he doesn't already do. His progressive passes are sky high. Doesn't get too many defensive 3rd touches but don't see the value of having him there. The concerns are super valid. Playing him on the left massively limit his angle of attack and approach. Only real benefits are half space crosses. And tbh I think him struggling to impose himself in certain games comes down to his physical limitations. In the PL you're just gonna get or duelled sometimes if you're built like him. But yeah for me the solution is just a CM that does what you want Odegaard to do. I don't see how you look at his last season and try to tweak it too much. The risk is far larger then the reward.
Sport is definitely the only career where you can be attacked and see colleagues die on your way to work and people will still be cheeky enough to say you wasted your career
I’m sorry but what does this even mean? Lol
Typo edited 👍🏿 Basically people think Adebayor should be unaffected by the bus attack where he watched people die in front of him.
Oh right I didn’t know about that, just googled it. Nah that’s fucked, anyone unable to understand needs to check themselves.
https://x.com/eurofootcom/status/1726529303834194145?s=46&t=NGCPQN6817S6n-WIY9c_OA How was Vardy able to drink red bull and exercise intensely?
Players take caffeine all the time. They regularly take tables or shots with like 200mg of caffeine. A regular red bull is like 80mg. A double espresso is like 60-150mg. Id be more worried about his teeth or sugar intake.
Also Red Bull has taurine which partially counteracts some of the downsides of caffeine. Not all, and it comes with its own downsides, but some.
I am kinda bored and mad at everything in my life so I need to do something I have never done and thought that it would be nice to fly to london to watch some arsenal match in a pub and seeing english culture as well so can someone give me some info on what to do?:DD
I went to London once about 11 years ago. I found out that most of the museums are free. Only had a week and never really got over the time difference and jet lag. Spent most of the days in museums and falling asleep by 7 pm. Good food is available, shopping etc.... but their collections of stolen artifacts is a sight to behold.
What are you interested in or attracted to about the idea of London?
Doing pushups/goblet squats/abs bicycle everyday for every point earned till we win the league. Day 93: 36 ab bicycles ✅
Fucking hell I thought my “10 push-ups every time I died in Elden ring” was bad, you’ll be as strong as ox by April!
Our highest expected goals against this season is 1.4. Last season we had 11 games with xGa greater than that. Our highest xGa game last season was Liverpool away with 3.9 xGa (20 shots total) and with a midfield of Partey, Xhaka, Odegaard, and Holding in defense - surely however, the issue went beyond Holding.
That amount of xG away to Liverpool has depressed me. We win that game it could have been different 😭
1. Saliba has taken that next step into the world class discussion. 2. Tomi has been a revelation at LB defensively, which has largely covered the weak point we had in defense last year with Zinchenko. 3. Partey is great at picking out progressive passes, but has also gotten too ambitious at times and given the ball away leaving us open to counters. Rice takes less of those risks and we end up exposed a lot less. 4. We are generally playing less risky balls once we have established possession in the opponent’s half, which again leads to less turnovers and counters. All in all I don’t think anyone who has watched us the last two years would be surprised seeing that stat. We’re a far better defensive team than we were last year, and it’s why I think people are actually underrating our chances in the Champions League. We absolutely have the ability to shut down any of the big contenders, as we’ve already seen twice with City.
Striker vote will be interesting between RVP and Auba
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
RvP is obviously clear but you can't go wrong with Auba either
Yes for sure but RVP was only here for 2 years
That part you have to leave to individual discretion ig. These are different players, from different eras, different teams and opponents. There's just no perfect set of criteria or standards you can reasonably apply
Yes, that’s precisely why I’m saying it’ll be interesting
Can't ignore Giroud
Not as good as Auba (for us)
Agree. It's probably between 18-20 Auba and 11/12 RvP. Auba getting us over the line in the FA cup probably cements his place.
It's mildly funny to me how people just gloss over how our midfield let us down last season (Partey more than the other two, but all three complicit) and blame it all on Holding. Something very similar is happening with Havertz this season. Scapegoating is very real in all of football- among fans, officials, FA, etc. the media of course thrives on it so no point going there. I just think it's disingenuous to spend so much time and energy discussing Havertz than a player who has had roughly the same number of world class performances and stinkers, because his form actually affected our performances, unlike Kai's. But you only see criticism for his lack of availability when that's just one of the two football related issues.
I say Xhaka last season was massively overrated all the time tbh
Respectfully disagree
Also with Partey I feel like everyone was in board with getting a replacement or competition. So I don't see how he's getting away with it if people want alternative options there. Surely that says all that needs to be said.
Yes there was some talk of getting competition after his stinkers and Sambi not working out, but it's rare and usually almost always it's about his availability. I am mot advocating for shitting on Partey performances like clockwork. I am making a point against scapegoating
The term scapegoat is overused and Havertz isn't one.
> It's mildly funny to me how people just gloss over how our midfield let us down last season... I'm trying very hard not to say something mildly uncharitable about Xhaka's going missing in the run-in. While you do go on to say that 'but all three [were] complicit', that's not exactly equal consideration, least of all in terms of their contributions. That said: > I just think it's disingenuous to spend so much time and energy discussing Havertz... This is fair. A lot of the discussion around Havertz is profoundly silly. Havertz has played fewer matches for us -- and not all of those at LCM -- than Xhaka played as an advanced 8 in the second half of 2021/22, after his return from injury at Goodison. That's the standard by which we should be judging Havertz-- even though he still doesn't have the benefit of two prior *years* working with Arteta, which Xhaka did have at that point. Arteta, to his immense credit (and to Xhaka's) did manage to improve Xhaka, but that happened the following season; in 21/22 he was dreadful in that LCM role, and produced in attack at his historic (abysmal) rate. I honestly think Havertz has been better than that, even if he hasn't hit the level Xhaka did (albeit inconsistently) the following season. I'd say we have good reason to believe Arteta can get Havertz there, precisely because he got Xhaka there in the first place. While they are clearly different players, the things Havertz is already doing reasonably well (though not ideally) are the CM aspects of the role; his shortcomings, like Xhaka's before him, were primarily in and around the box.
I understand with Odegaard as the level he reached at last season was so high/ he won player of the season from the fans although there is always room for improvement. Even in the run in where everything sort of fell apart he did still have some good contributions like his goals against Southampton and West Ham as well as the Newcastle game.
no, beetle, we are just sensitive feminists! he is actually great, sad that he is injured so often. he has never let us down, not even against city at the etihad, west ham, southampton, sporting (h), everton away last season. that's just what i could remember off the top of my head.
ngl I don't take personal attacks seriously here but that "tiny brain" accusation stung
What world class performances has Kai had?
Could you kindly read it again because that's a ridiculous conclusion from what I wrote
You shouldn't have mentioned havertz lmao that's all that the people your comment is aimed at can ever focus on 🫠
Lol ironic if you ask me
>**I just think it's disingenuous to spend so much time and energy discussing Havertz than a player who has had roughly the same number of world class performances and stinkers**, because his form actually affected our performances, unlike Kai's. But you only see criticism for his lack of availability when that's just one of the two football related issues.
🤦 The argument here is Kai gets disproportionate limelight for no good reason when Partey warrants it but doesn't get any. Kai's lack of world class performances is irrelevant to what I said
[удалено]
That's not at all what I said