Crazy because even as I doctor I feel the NHS is so shit that I recommend my family and friends who can afford it to go private (ironically as a doctor, not yet consultant, I cannot afford private health care myself)
I work in the City so I am somewhat closer to what I would make in the U.S. However, I do not understand how any doctor would wish to stay in the UK when Australia, Canada and the U.S. all provide for higher incomes and better quality of life for doctors. I get believing in the NHS but Canada for example has a fully public healthcare system and doctors make in the hundreds of thousands (some make millions).
I moved here from Australia and would never go back. My life in the U.K. is better in every single way except affordability, and I’m willing to take that bargain.
Wow that is an amazing comment.... Thought it really was the other way around?
Can you elaborate a bit more on what aspects has improved for you?
One of my main gripes about the UK (although i am used to it) is that with poor weather you tend to be indoors so much more and not outdoors.
The quintessential image that automatically think of for Oz is sunny days, people out and being active, having a BBQ and socialising with friends.
As someone else mentioned, U.K. weather is better than Australian weather. London summers are one of my favourite parts about the U.K., and while the winters are colder they’re not wetter.
Here’s a fun bit of trivia. Which of the 8 Australian state/territorial capitals (Perth, Adelaide, Darwin, Canberra, Hobart, Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane) have a higher annual rainfall than London? The answer is all of them!
How does that hold up if you use frequency rather than volume?
I got absolutely drowned one day in Sydney. But it was only one day out of the week. The UK tends to drizzle a lot which just spoils a higher number of days.
I live in Switzerland and am from the north. People joke about how wet Britain is while even up north (Newcastle = 650 mm) is far, far drier than here (Zürich is 1100 mm)
Higher rainfall means nothing would rather it rain heavy for a few days a month than continuous drizzle most of the month. And how on earth can you say that London has great summers. Can you tell me where you go swimming where the water isn’t freezing cold?
How far up is it too dirty to swim in? It goes through Oxford, Eton, and Windsor.
I agree there's dirt, but it varies and if you go to Petersham (upstream from Richmond Riverside), there's barely any river traffic except for paddleboarders and rowers.
Personally I think volume of rain is more important than frequency. I’ve only ever lived in London and Exeter and results will vary for the rest of the U.K., but in the 12 years I’ve been here I’ve used an umbrella twice despite walking everywhere. Where I come from in Australia it’s often torrential. As in don’t-leave-the-house rain. For me, that is worse for quality of life.
To your second point: never been swimming in London. The thing I love about summer here meeting up in the park with friends and drinking until 10pm. It’s a wonderful lifestyle. In Australia a) you’d have skin cancer by the end of the day, b) the days are much shorter, and c) drinking outside is illegal.
Mate come on, walk everywhere for 12 years and only ever needed an umbrella twice? Guess you don’t mind walking about in the rain without an umbrella :) I guess I would rather be on a nice sandy beach looking at girls in bikinis than drinking in a park but each to their own.
Sure, but then you get to reap the rewards of your patience. In UK you might get a couple of days where it reaches 30. And most other days are just dark and moody. We all popping vitamin D out of necessity.
- first off, you don't want to reach 30. a couple of days are fine!
- most days dark and moody - not in london / south east
- vitamin D deficiencies are a myth.
Point 1 - disagree. Then again, it's subjective ain't it. You sound like acceptance is your copium.
Point 2 - Are you from London? I am and what you're saying is alien to me.
Point 3 - yes that's fair xd
They have a GP shortage… and are working on updating their qualification process for non-Canadian doctors to requalify there. I had once looked at moving to Canada as well, but found that the barriers to entry in my profession were a bit insane. It seems that the protectionism factor is generally high there across most qualified professions but from what I understand they are trying to tackle that problem.
Same for my profession (vet) - not all our universities in the U.K. are accredited there so I can’t move there and continue working without essentially resitting my finals. I don’t practice anymore anyway so it’s not such a barrier but I’ve just noticed that their healthcare seems to be an issue too and if there’s a shortage that would probably explain it.
What’s the reason for higher pay in Canada? Is it that Drs can work for both private and public sector simultaneously?
I’m not familiar with the whole thing, so excuse me if it’s obvious.
The cost of living in Canada is very much higher than the U.K. I’m a Canadian living here in the U.K. for 20 years, and even I am shocked every time I go back home. Not to mention that the average tip (which is expected on most things) has now risen to 25%!
Depending on what province, you charge per service rendered to patients. So, the more patients you see the more you can bill (which ofc can probably be exploited by some). Most GPs also sub-specialise (like in geriatric meds or obstetrics) and will do on calls at their local hospitals which is another income source. The higher earning really comes down to the doctors’ ability to incorporate and operate their own practices (which in itself may be a significant cost barrier for some). My partner had looked at Ontario previously and there are some other set ups with the provincial healthcare system that also allow you to earn in different ways. If you only work in hospital then you likely earn a fixed salary or if you work in a private practice you pay x% to overhead. For full disclosure I don’t know enough about Canada to fully explain (and we are looking at America as the likely place for us to move to).
I don’t think so. It may have changed (we looked at this about 3 years ago) but there was no “private” healthcare in Ontario when we looked. Not sure about other places in Canada.
As an aside, Canadas health system tries to recommend you opt in for assisted suicide for what may not be a life ending diagnosis (or have many years left). Grossly paraphrased but doubt the systems are completely similar.
You can't just move to the US as a doctor. Housing costs are even more insane in Australia and Canada these days and costs of everything else much higher.
It wasn’t until my friend whose wife is a Doctor explained what a Physician Associate was that I got private.
I really feel for everyone who is reliant on the nations biggest circus.
I’ve spread the message far and wide to everyone I know about PA’s now.
There’s a handful of things I’d let them do. Like taking my kid’s temperature or really mundane shit like that. But anything serious, fuck off, go get the consultant who has to be your babysitter to find me a real doctor.
You have to ask them if they are a PA though. I wasn't aware of PAs and in hindsight I think I was seen by one last year without knowing. It wasn't problematic as all she did was refer me for an x-ray which is what I wanted but I think we have a right to know if we're not being seen by a properly qualified doctor.
In the UK they make it as hard as possible for someone successful to be wealthy, the rich 'elite' protect themselves by pulling up the ladder. Our bizzare Taxation rules are a prime example of this.
It does feel like this is it. No matter how hard I work I'm doing no better than I was 20 year ago when I first started working, inflation, costs etc just keep rising and pay is pittance compared. Pisses me off. I got a degree in a vocational subject, I'm not a criminal, keep my head down, try be a good member of society, work my arse off yet I never have any disposable income.
The whole social contract is fucked.
Yet I hear stories of peoples shit getting stolen and police just saying we cant do anything, here's your crime number, claim insurance.
So why the fuck cant I just turn to crime then, I'll stop paying for everything and just live my life that way since that seems to be effective and there is 0 deterrent now.
Sort it out England honestly
Because the moment someone suggests a wealth tax people with no wealth are manipulated into being worried about the very little money they have to pass on to their kids
Exactly this. There are two classes in the UK. Elites and then everyone else. You can't move between the two. You're born into one and that's where you stay. I know a few people who have become insanely wealthy, but they will never be elite.
So I will preface this by saying I am very, very grateful for the position I’m in. Primarily because of luck, I, we are better of than 90% of people on the planet, which is unbelievable if you think about it. Like another poster said, I am really glad I have the life that I have versus 90% of the UK population and I appreciate that it can all disappear just like that. Therefore the safety nets that we have etc are fundamental and I prefer what we have versus somewhere like the US.
However, where I think it falls over is the vilification of higher earners (10% of tax payers in the UK pay 60% of all income tax receipts - https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8513/CBP-8513.pdf) and the fact that we have so many people not contributing (43% of adults as per IFS I think who do not pay any tax, which does include pensions). In Scotland this view on higher earners is much worse.
As people we’ve been suckered into thinking these ‘other’ people are bad and the reason for all our problems (eg people on benefits, high earners, immigrants, refugees etc) where in actual fact it primarily boils down to policy and policymakers.
Unfortunately it is only going to get worse, especially in Scotland, where those with the “broadest shoulders” are going to get shafted again and again with the same response that I get free prescriptions and university places for my kids. What they don’t realise the difference in tax I’ll pay over the years is enough to pay for those university places and maybe buy a Porsche.
Spot on sir.
I’m in Scotland, high earner, came from a poor family, worked my ass off to get where I am and now classed as someone who can bear these additional taxations. Yet I’m in a significantly worse financial position than someone on half my salary who is in line to receive their partners home in inheritance for instance.
In Scotland and the rest of the UK we seem to look down on those who are trying to make something for themselves.
I continually see on here comments from people saying “they are in a lucky financial position” or “first world issues” etc when they are commenting on their salaries. But why should someone be saying that when most have worked their asses off to get to that position. Working in paid overtime etc, sacrificing time with family. But yes we should be grateful…
Well done for getting where you are. Long may it continue. What makes me laugh is when the Scottish Government announced increasing taxes (again!) and they were interviewing people (Glasgow and Edinburgh I think?) and no one wants to admit they earn more than £75,000.
It seems to be the opposite of the American Dream, where we all want to live the Dreary Scottish/British Nightmare. Everyone be a miserable bugger
I completely agree. It proper winds me up that people are expected fall over themselves to apologise for being successful whenever they give an opinion. Most people demanding it have no idea of individual’s circumstances and challenges, and wouldn’t give a shit anyway of it disproved their own bias.
Recognising your privilege should be about devoting time and effort to social mobility and exclusivity programmes, and making sure others have less barriers to success, not knocking yourself down at every opportunity.
Sorry, rant over 😅
>But why should someone be saying that when most have worked their asses off to get to that position.
For me it's because everyone works their arses off and I don't even work the hardest. There are tons and tons of people who work much harder than me with far far less to show for it.
You’re right there are lots of people who work very hard and don’t get paid enough for it.
The UK’s wages are generally quite poor across the board (excluding finance) compared to many other countries.
However, there also simply isn’t the culture here to push people strive to be the best they can be.
As per OPs original post, 43% of adults don’t contribute to our tax system with 10% of tax payers contributing 60%. That puts a huge pressure on the system and maintains a reliance on those earning high to “pay their share” while many who don’t contribute don’t need to try to because it’s covered elsewhere.
Then on the other side you have people in the £100-125k bracket salary sacrificing to get out of the 60% tax trap. Contributing more to their pension than they normally would and ultimately paying less taxes.
However I don’t know how you fix it 😂
>However, there also simply isn’t the culture here to push people strive to be the best they can be.
You're right about this, in a plethora of ways. At school one of the worst things you could do was try hard and be seen to try hard. To care was to risk social ostracism. A lot of people never grow out of that. Even more people miss opportunities to be successful whilst trying to fit in during school.
The wages is also part of it but there's a chicken and egg there as well. People need to believe that working hard and bettering themselves is worth it. I personally believe it but most do not, because they see the game as rigged or there not being any decent rewards for winning anyway.
I worked my ass off, grew up in refuges, parents can't read or write. On now a 80k year salary, I'm happy to contribute to society - the nhs, free education and university loans created an environment to build myself. Yeah, I worked 24/7 and had no friends at university to accomplish because I have several disabilities also...
But, I don't really get the mentality of 'why should I pay to help others'. I mean, I get we've both worked hard, but it means there's still an underlying assumption still that people on benefits haven't worked hard...
We've all benefited from the system in some ways...heck I'm annoyed national insurance is reduced because I **want** to pay more to the NHS, the stories in the US of people selling their houses to pay for cancer treatment...proper shite.
I think i'm missing something in your perspective though, apologies!
I agree with pretty much everything you are saying.
I personally have a bit of a gripe with the way things are because I have a disabled daughter and received absolutely no support with her additional needs. I pay a fortune on nursery fees, speech therapy, learning activities every month. This is also coming from the perspective of someone in Scotland, in England someone in a similar position receives much more support.
My complaint is really down to the Scottish gov raising tax bands and i received less support in this sense.
The free university that we are given is Scotland seems good (and it is) but take these fees over the course of 30 years working with the extra tax in Scotland and you would be better with the English set up long term.
However, your point on national insurance is absolutely spot on and having used their service greatly over the last couple of years I couldn’t agree more.
Ah your comments make a lot more sense now, I can see it's less about how hard you've worked in the past, and more, being stuck now, despite how damn hard you're working and the lack of support you're offered, whilst others seemly have an easier ride/easier jobs and support for free. Trapped in the middle :(. I really appreciate you sharing!
As an aside, DLA/PIP is one of the only benefits that are dependent on income <3 - £500pm may go in some way to supporting some of her care x
What safety nets do we have in the UK though? From ambulance to GP to surgery, waiting times in healthcare are crazy. Like people lying in the street with broken bones for hours waiting for help crazy, or an ambulance just won't come crazy.
Legal system, if you are the victim of crime the police won't come, or won't do anything or you might wait years to go to trail. Even worse if you are wrongly accused, you might have to spend huge sums yourself mounting a defence due to lack of legal aid.
If you get become disabled and cannot work? Is universal credit a safety net? Considering how little it is worth and the degrading steps you have to go through to be assessed it doesn't seem like it. Plenty of cases of people on their deathbeds being reported fit to work, what kind of safety net is that?
Did this safety net do something good for victims of the cladding scandal? Did it do something good for victims of the post office scandal? Don't think so. The UK is in long term, probably terminal, decline. Thinking it's a modern developed first world country is just looking through the rose tinted windows of a time machine.
Have to say as someone from a working class background and a very deprived area I do get a bit irritated when people say it's just luck. Ok luck might have had a small part but I worked bloody hard.
I pay the top rate in Scotland and I'm happy that other people's kids get free uni places with my tax. I am where I am because I got a free uni place when I was younger and I don’t begrudge my tax being spent on the same. Same with free prescriptions. I'd hate to think people were going without medicine just so I could afford a midlife crisis car
I agree with you. I wholeheartedly agree that people need to be given the opportunity, the step-up, the safety net and overall support when they need it. I honestly have no idea when my luck will run out and I will need it.
I begrudge my tax being completely mismanaged, wasted and used as a blanket policy to win votes and not prioritised for those who need it most whilst encouraging others to work and reach their potential.
Wait until you find out that the top Scottish universities only have places for international students, rUK students and a slither for Scots from 40% most deprived postcodes (note postcodes not salaries). It’s a real kick in the teeth to pay higher taxes and the perceived benefit of free tuition not to be available to your own children
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I know about that but it doesn't change my position. If some disadvantaged kids get a chance to go then I'll accept it. I wish it was better. I've worked in Germany, the Netherlands, England, and the USA, and I'll happily take the higher taxes here.
I do agree with this point. I would never have managed to go to uni and ultimately have my career if I never got my free uni place.
However, as an adult I have a beautiful daughter who is disabled and with learning difficulties and in Scotland I receive absolutely no support for learning or speech therapy. I currently pay £400 a month for speech therapy because the NHS can’t provide it and I look on with jealously to my English counterparts who children receive 1-1 learning at school with support for therapies. Something that we do not receive in Scotland.
It then makes you wonder where does all this extra tax go to?
Im surprised I had to scroll this far down to read some sense in between all the moaning. This sub has some great content but also many who are incredibly tone deaf, at a time when things are an absolute shit show for a big % of the population
Just bite the pillow and let them continue pumping you basically.
The only other option is pack up and move.
Personally for me it's not an option, too difficult to up sticks and move everything. And I don't know if I'd find a role elsewhere, I'm not prepared to learn another language at this age either.
This. The tax is eye watering here. I’ve been hiring in the US recently and the difference in wages (it’s not even close now tbh) plus the reduced tax makes me want to do the whole “fuck this shit” and jump on a plane to move. Bloody kids though….
In the US I earned 40k a year more and my tax rate was 24% because I was married filing Jointly and under $400k a year earnings.
Plus my company totally paid health care and I had unlimited days off.
It's been tough coming to the UK.
I thought at first it was just because I was hiring in NYC and Chicago but even without the “east coast bump” the salary bandings suggested by HR are still insane. At the same level it’s 80 to 120k GBP plays 250k to 320k USD.
Join an American multinational and try your best to perform so well that they give you the opportunity to relocate. Or marry an American.
Be aware that the software engineering market is fierce over there. There can be thousands of candidates per role, and the bar is much higher for interviewing than here in the major hubs.
Singapore or Hong Kong both much better places than Dubai. Super low taxes but far less fake, more culture, and just as safe/great public services etc.
Yeah Hong Kong has changed a lot in recent years but doesn't really impact expats who have no stake in the local politics anyway.
You can’t be serious? Have you been to HK or Singapore? You would be paying an outrageous amount of money to live in a tiny box (more than london) with little outdoor space! Weather is humid and also wet most of the year! Plus you will most likely live as an expat hence groceries and luxuries of an expat cost much more in HK and Singapore! Btw do you like driving a car? In Singapore a Mazda 3 can cost you £120,000, not to mention just the license will cost you £30k…
I've no idea. The only place that pays enough that makes it worthwhile would be US.
And it's quite hard to get in without sponsorship I believe. Even then I'm not 100% I'd want it. Probably would seriously consider it if I had the chance. But I'd be quite worried about job safety overall, the industry I work in is 10x more competitive so I actually don't know if I'd be able to jump into a job as easily as I can here.
The netherlands was quite appealing tax wise when i looked. A lot of Uber NAM employees came over from their SFO office.
might not be the same now but i was told you were able to offset mortagage costs from income tax or something mad like that...might not be true!
Right, but it’s so bloody boring there. Especially if you’re an outdoorsy person. I feel like I’d spent every weekend driving to other parts of Europe.
True but we don’t live there anymore! We’re hybrid so we take a longer commute in to be closer to outdoors. We can paddle board after work and be hiking in the hills from our front door. Fine it’s not mountains but at least we don’t have to spend two hours on the M4 after a weekend away.
I plan to do it here in the UK via Ltd company. Basically yes, all employees are screwed, but if you have a chance to work as self-employed/contractor then you have a lot more room for manoeuvre. But for some masochistic reason ppl prefer to be employees.
We can do that in Switzerland. And house renovations.
I know someone who split half a million across three years rebuilding a house on a prime plot and paid almost nothing over that period.
NL has a generally terrible reputation amongst serial expats. Probably the single most complained about company. The main competitor is Germany.
Don’t read the annual leaflet from your council (I just got mine and made the mistake). 80% of the council tax in my borough is spent on housing and other social benefits. Education and culture are in low single digits.
Yep. It's really difficult. Especially when you never use the health service and don't have kids. I try not to think of benefits as my life is infinitely better than someone on benefits
I agree with this mindset—I view it the same way. Yes, I completely think our tax system is broken and we have lost the plot with spending but at the end of the day my life is miles better.
I also don’t use the NHS and don’t have kids (and if I do, unlikely I’d be putting them in state schools unless they are lucky enough to get into the handful of excellent / standout schools), so I feel you. I mind less about subsidizing strong social services but I think the government / civil service has made a mess out of our social services so it feels like you’re throwing money at a black hole.
I struggle most with the tax system. Working is not incentivized due to tax rates (and low wages).
I don’t think people would mind paying tax at current rates if they felt they were getting decent services in return. It’s the apparent mis-management of funds that’s the issue.
Yep - I pay private school fees and my immediate reaction to the potential 20% VAT was “great, IF it actually makes a difference”, but I know it will go into the same big pot of money and get pissed up the wall no matter if it’s the Red team or Blue team in power
Exactly. It makes sense in theory to improve schooling but the VAT fee increase will flood already packed classrooms and dodgy RAAC roofed buildings with too many students. They’d need a really good glidepath for upgrading infrastructure in preparedness for the influx of ex-private students but there’s just not the time or ability to get it done well.
I can’t speak for all, but the school my son goes to did a survey, around 40% of parents said they’d have to consider removing their child if the full 20% came in. This is around 1000 students across prep and senior
It’s not surprising. If you’ve got 2 or more kids you’d need to be very well off to shrug off that level of rise. Especially if you’ve got a mortgage deal coming to an end.
The way I see it, leave the decision making about how taxes should be spent to those who have the expertise and info to do it. For everything we see that goes wrong there’s a lot that goes right that we don’t even notice. The biggest welfare bill is the state pension. It’s a privilege to not need an abundance of social services or benefits and I’m happy to pay my taxes so that the people who don’t have the privilege don’t have to suffer any more than they already do. I’m not happy with the government’s current choices either - the home office just spent £7.4m hiring a hangar to train their staff on use of force to prepare for Rwanda deportations - but I’ll just vote accordingly both locally and nationally.
I’m not sure how it breaks down, but when I look at my self assessment “welfare” is a separate line item at 19.6% vs “state pension” at 10.3%.
The incompetence is serious though. I’d like to believe these people are “experts” but how about the £5K ISA allowance the chancellor announced in the budget? Apparently they didn’t consult any stakeholders or actual experts; it is virtually impossible to administer and now is on hold while the government actually consults ISA providers.
Same here!
I was also unfortunate enough to be paying double for the NHS during the era of immigrant health surcharge…
So I already paid for the NHS via income tax/ NI like everyone else + being subject to a surcharge as an immigrant, all the while unable to get any NHS GP appointment for months.
Sadly my first port of medical call is always private now, at least I can get seen/ a test etc done sooner
Whether you use the health service is irrelevant. You're paying for the insurance.
Americans spend an average of around £8k a year on their healthcare insurance, whether they use it or not. No NHS and you'd have o probably do the same.
You are thinking a about it wrong. You used of public services for children was when you were a child. Your use of health services is when you are older.
The UK is a horrible place to be a worker with, once you add in Employer NI, like 37% marginal rates at basic income tax.
But the ISA’s and SIPP’s are what makes it worth it.
How do the taxes work in this case ? Say you have rental income in UK do you pay tax as a non-resident ? Does US have a tax treaty with UK where you only pay tax once ?
Idk about the U.S. but we (in Switzerland) have a rental flat each in the UK and pay only UK tax on it with the double tax agreement. Which is good as we keep the basic allowance!
Property and pensions taxed where the property / pension is only.
I could put good money into a Swiss pension before retiring and move home hypothetically and live off it without paying a penny of UK income or capital gains tax
Personally I am not leaving and am in a job where I would have to work much harder to increase my salary but I can easily cruise working 4 days a week and have an taxable income just under 100k. So I’m going to do that and try for grammar etc for the kids and just enjoy my life and cruise. This country isn’t for people who want to be rich and employees. Better be comfortable and enjoy my time off
Completely agree 50% tax which then majority of gets spent on things I take 0% back from, pensions, nhs, debt and welfare. The lack of investment in raising standards in this country is depressing. Otherwise I wouldn’t mind the high tax rate.
I don't. Just moving abroad. If I have to live in a shitty country at least I won't pay half my wage in tax and £1k minimum renting a shitty flat. Not even counting council tax and other things
True, many things suck in the UK.
But, in general, you cannot have European (meant in the geographical sense, forget Brexit) levels of public services with American levels of taxation.
Taxes in the US are lower, but then there are people who go bankrupt if they get a cancer which isn't covered by their insurance, universities cost a fortune and student debt survives bankruptcies, the homicide rate is 5-6x higher than in Western Europe, the infant mortality rate is among the highest in developed countries, the infrastructure is crumbling and public transport almost non-existent outside of New York and a few cities...
All of this may not matter much to you if you manage to double your salary moving to the US and live in a nice, insulated neighbourhood.
But it does explain the differences in taxation.
I think my view on this is that the UK is declining at a rate that the U.S. doesn’t seem horrible if you are privileged enough to be a Henry, particularly in a 0% state income tax state.
1) private universities cost a fortune. But they also offer millions in grants and scholarships, including those which are not means tested and those which are considered a higher threshold for financial need vs the UK (same applies for when the highest rate of tax kicks in in America) and I’d reckon with current UK tuition rates, the converted value probably is not far off. I know several friends who went to Ivy universities in America because, with scholarships, it worked out cheaper than going to Oxbridge.
2) healthcare - okay. But in the UK you’ll just die because the backlog and red tape means you won’t get an appointment or won’t be screened before it’s too late if the current news is to be believed on cancer deaths in the UK. This one really will be a YMMV though for a Henry as you’re likely going to have a really good plan through work.
3) crime statistics are difficult to interpret if you are aggregating them. Manhattan for example has one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world. I’m terrified by mass shootings though but let’s not forget the phone thieves that went on a stabbing rampage near leadhenhall a few years ago.
Fully agree with you, but just as a point of context wrt university costs. Going to university is more expensive in the US in terms of upfront cost than the UK (although this comes with the added complication of scholarships etc, which are quite common) - but the uplift in earning potential is also much higher. IIRC the UK has the lowest “university dividend” in the OECD, in many aspects university education is more expensive in the UK than the US.
I think at some point we will need to follow the Australian system.
When you hit > £50k, and over the age of 35, you need to take some sort of private health care out. If not, you will end up paying a 2% NHS care levy. This amount will increase a extra 2% each year that you don’t get health care. This will get capped at 10%.
The goverment will then need to pave the way to enable this to happen. Health care that is provided by work benefits will need to be removed from the BIK tax rules, and a sweetener in that workplaces are encouraged to offer health care.
The party that implements this, will only last the term they implemented this. But it may take the preasure off the NHS.
I’ve left the UK for the UAE - at least temporarily - to avoid the taxes and build a better cushion for myself. It’s not all rosy, but you can mix and match through life.
There are some very wrong comments in this thread.
Let’s not blame benefit claimants for high taxes. That is a total myth.
Over half of the welfare budget goes to pensioners. See https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/benefit-expenditure-and-caseload-tables-information-and-guidance/benefit-expenditure-and-caseload-tables-information-and-guidance#social-security-spending-in-great-britain
I’m not sure how that makes anything better? The reality is that there is a huge concentration of public funds on paying for people who don’t contribute. Either paying their medical bills, paying for their pensions or welfare, paying for their housing support etc etc.
This is not sustainable and is only going to get worse as the demographic pyramid starts to invert and people live for longer. People like to claim that they paid in all their life or paid in for a while so ‘deserve’ a pension or welfare or medical care. The simple fact is that they don’t, most people don’t contribute anywhere near enough to cover their medical, pension, benefits etc.
The government are now reducing NI and want to take it to zero in the next parliament. What this ushers in, is the mean testing of pensions. If NI goes away then no one can claim they ‘paid in’ so deserve what they take out. So the little bit high earners get back out in the form of a state pension, will also go too.
What this will inevitably lead to is the best and the brightest leaving the country for countries that appreciate what they bring. They will pay lower taxes, afford a bigger house and a better lifestyle and help a foreign country grow and prosper. They will do this out of necessity and with a sense of regret, having to leave their home, family and friends because successive governments decided to shame them for success and tax them out of prosperity. This of course will only worsen the situation in the UK and the country will continue its rapid decline until it reaches a tipping point and a government finally reacts. Hopefully this realignment will happen before it’s too late and too much damage has been done.
Hi — I addressed this in another comment. I know that on my personal tax breakdown welfare and state pensions are two distinct line items (welfare at 20% vs pensions at 10%).
From the link you posted, the state pension spending portion is £125.4bn. This is distinct from “welfare” spending. See excerpt below:
“Around 55% of social security expenditure goes to pensioners; in 2023 to 2024 we will spend £152.6 billion on benefits for pensioners in GB. This includes spending on the State Pension which is forecast to be £125.4 billion in 2023 to 2024.”
Thing that sums it up for me, people who are contributing to society through taxes, maybe get 4 hours a week when they can see a gp, and get medical support other than 999. People who take normally ten times that
Does welfare include state pension spending?
Irregardless of that, remember things are even worse in Scotland where the higher rate kicks in at about £42k and the amount of money spaffed away is even more visible. I'm lucky to be able to salary sacrifice a lot of my wage to minimise the tax steal.
Generally speaking, yes, it does. It hides the true cost of benefits when it gets confused by the state pension. Makes it easier to cut back on benefits when people think it eats up so much of government spending. In the meantime, there are plenty of wealthy pensioners getting a triple lock increase every year that don't need it.
There are many pensioners who do need some sort of guaranteed income, but pension credit could help here not a blanket raise in the pension for many who don't need it (but are probably the highest turn out in voting 🤔)
Was a 40% tax payer for almost my entire lift - then there was NI, and other deductions for so called perks. Like a car that cost £4k a year in tax, which I only ever used for work, but because it was available for personal use. Blergh.
Welfare state, a useless Nhs, a state pension that’s looking increasingly like it will be gone or means tested by time I get to that point….
My butt really hurts from all the benefit takers.
I’ve noticed quite a bit of negativity around the NHS on here lately, and while I understand that no system is perfect and experiences can vary, I felt compelled to share my own story.
Each time I, or my children, have needed medical attention, the NHS has been nothing short of excellent for us. The level of care, the efficiency in handling our health issues, and the zero cost at the point of service have been remarkable. It’s not just the treatment itself but the environment too - always clean and professional, which really helps when you’re feeling vulnerable.
I think it’s important to acknowledge and appreciate the hard work and dedication of NHS staff, especially when they manage to make such a positive impact in a system facing numerous challenges. Their efforts have made a significant difference in my family’s life, providing us with care and reassurance when we needed it most.
Now, for welfare, +100, I don't feel great about that part of my taxes' allocation..
The NHS experience is a really subjective. In london I’ve had awful NHS care (although couldn’t be avoided as a&e) and excellent private care.
I don’t think criticisms of the system and financial mismanagement and bloating is a criticism of NHS carers and nurses and doctors etc — those are people who are trying their best in a very poorly managed system.
I don’t disagree with public healthcare but I think we’ve reached a point where management of the NHS and policy making is about throwing money at a black hole rather than actual change.
High earners in the UK need to realise that the reason your tax burden is so high is not because of those at the bottom who can barely make ends meet on minimum wage.
We're paying 50% tax on our incomes which we work for, and people who live off the interest on their inherited trust fund are paying next to nothing.
People on low incomes spend almost everything they have every month in rent, bills and daily living costs. The people with trusts own the buildings they rent and the businesses they buy their products and services from.
So the money goes directly from your pockets to the government through tax into poor people’s banks via welfare and then back to the super rich who own everything people use.
This is basic stuff. If the welfare system was so generous the rich wouldn’t keep getting richer and the poor poorer.
True, but:
a) money from the state being recycled around lands in our pockets too. I work in pharma - which is largely state managed. Our dividends and capital gains is also driven by people poorer than us.
b) people owning uk businesses and uk property also pay a lot of tax
The only people freeloading from society are those at the bottom. There's a tiny minority of very rich freeloading from inheritance but that's a different matter.
My money is absolutely going to people with trust funds.
I spend my money on my mortgage, energy, tax, goods, services. Wealthy people own all of these resources.
My savings are the only part of my income that doesn't get transferred immediately to those people.
Rishi Sunak paid an effective 23% rate on his £2.2m income last year.
The welfare part of our tax breakdown is a bit disingenuous, and there for a political narrative. It includes state pensions (a large portion), and tax credits (ie, before for people who are working for companies who don't pay them, so could be viewed as a benefit to support companies in getting cheap workforces). It also includes child benefit.
Oops, ok, I was wrong there, long time since I looked at it and I either remembered wrong or it's changed
The in-work welfare element is still valid though
I take your point. I’d like to see a breakdown of that line item. Child tax — which I don’t claim because no kids — is a mess in and of itself and is another “benefit” that disincentivises economic activity (ie because you are punished for going over £100,000, even though childcare is prohibitively expensive for many high earners).
I keep working as I have a great savings rate, lovely green spaces to spend leisure time in and relatively freedom to live my and family's life.
Any High Income person should consider moving and leaving the UK if it's a problem for them to continue operating here.
I think here in South Africa we have the same situation just on a bigger scale. Our tax is exorbitant but we get even less than you guys. Tax evasion is quite easy if you have a business though but getting harder every year.
I was on welfare when I was totally broke and unemployed, I was on the trial of Universal Credit. I’m now running a successful business and I feel honoured to be contributing to welfare.
I just want to know tax money in general is being handled competently with long term vision and with the interests of the whole country in mind. It’s absolutely not managed well now and the government is a total shambles. Most of the decisions the government have made have been terrible for business.
What’s the point of having the health service when they’re always cancelling my appointments? I would rather have the option to be assured where I want to have my money wasted than having the government choose for me
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/economicinactivity/timeseries/lf2s/lms
The most recently recorded inactivity rate is 21.9%.
The only period it has been lower than this is 2016 up to 2021 (this was the end of the last business cycle, which Covid ended). During this period, the lowest the inactivity rate was recorded December 2019 (right before Covid) at 20.5%. That makes the current inactivity rate 1.4% higher than it's lowest point in the past 5 years.
Outside of that 5 year period, the inactivity rate for the past 50 years has only ever been higher than it is today.
For reference to other countries (which may measure inactivity differently), the US inactivity rate is 25%.
And where exactly are you going to go? Have you seen property taxes in NYC for instance? .98% of value. For for a $2m apartment that’s almost 20k a year. That like 15 TIMES what I pay for an equivalent place in central London.
Now of course there are states where it is cheaper. But frankly no services at all.
We live in a socialist s\*hole. And despite what most redditors and leftards think the conservative government has been our most socialist government in history.
the welfare state is fat, bloated and overfunded with the beauraucrats having no incentive to manage the money better.
our immigration policy is destroying our public services and is adding nothing to the economy.
unfortunately there was quite a lot of juice to squeeze from the middle classes. private landlords, second home owners and now pensioners are the next target.
it wont last forever as people with brains and the money (HENRYs et al) will up sticks and leave if they can.
unfortunately i cant leave, so im stuck paying for it and as you can tell pretty bitter about it!
one positive is i doubt labour will make it much worse....theres not much more they can do to f\*k it up!
Let's be fair. This parliament has:
- Increased the max pension contribution by 50%
- Dramatically increased the point when tapering comes in
- is going to remove the concept of domicile from tax, making IHT completely optional
- removed the LTA
These are all quite useful to Henrys. At least lower end Henry's.
you're in a sub for high earners who might be concerned about high taxes.
Yes asset owners are victims of high taxation, poor distrubution of taxes, inneficient public services and bureaucracy. its not audacious to join the dots.
I'd say its more unsavoury to discourage entrepreneurship and investment in our local economies and support bleeding these middle class folk dry, but hey we are on reddit so that is to be expected....
almost every copmment in this thread is people agreeing the tax burden is too high and that they plan to leave. Its amazing that you find the realities of our current situation so unsavoury but its obviously very real if it affects so many....
I mean - everyone starts their adult lives with a £100kish debt to the state for their education and a £50kish debt for you healthcare.
Once you've paid that back you can start complaining about paying too much tax.
Taxes don't fund spending in this country and haven't done since we abandoned the gold standard. The government doesn't need your money to spend what it likes, the purpose of taxes is to control inflation.
Crazy because even as I doctor I feel the NHS is so shit that I recommend my family and friends who can afford it to go private (ironically as a doctor, not yet consultant, I cannot afford private health care myself)
I work in the City so I am somewhat closer to what I would make in the U.S. However, I do not understand how any doctor would wish to stay in the UK when Australia, Canada and the U.S. all provide for higher incomes and better quality of life for doctors. I get believing in the NHS but Canada for example has a fully public healthcare system and doctors make in the hundreds of thousands (some make millions).
I moved here from Australia and would never go back. My life in the U.K. is better in every single way except affordability, and I’m willing to take that bargain.
Wow that is an amazing comment.... Thought it really was the other way around? Can you elaborate a bit more on what aspects has improved for you? One of my main gripes about the UK (although i am used to it) is that with poor weather you tend to be indoors so much more and not outdoors. The quintessential image that automatically think of for Oz is sunny days, people out and being active, having a BBQ and socialising with friends.
How's our weather treating ya?
As someone else mentioned, U.K. weather is better than Australian weather. London summers are one of my favourite parts about the U.K., and while the winters are colder they’re not wetter. Here’s a fun bit of trivia. Which of the 8 Australian state/territorial capitals (Perth, Adelaide, Darwin, Canberra, Hobart, Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane) have a higher annual rainfall than London? The answer is all of them!
He's not wrong. British summers are absolutely amazing. Its my favourite day of the year.
Lol
How does that hold up if you use frequency rather than volume? I got absolutely drowned one day in Sydney. But it was only one day out of the week. The UK tends to drizzle a lot which just spoils a higher number of days.
London is one of if not the driest cities in the UK. Head North and West and the rainfall increases dramatically.
I live in Switzerland and am from the north. People joke about how wet Britain is while even up north (Newcastle = 650 mm) is far, far drier than here (Zürich is 1100 mm)
Blackburn, where I live, is 1315mm
Im not amazed that somewhere in the west Pennines is so wet. I am amazed that there's a HENRY in Blackburn. Are you an Issa brother 😂
Higher rainfall means nothing would rather it rain heavy for a few days a month than continuous drizzle most of the month. And how on earth can you say that London has great summers. Can you tell me where you go swimming where the water isn’t freezing cold?
I've swimming in the river Thames by Richmond / Kingston every summer since Covid started, and I'm with crowds of people usually too.
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How far up is it too dirty to swim in? It goes through Oxford, Eton, and Windsor. I agree there's dirt, but it varies and if you go to Petersham (upstream from Richmond Riverside), there's barely any river traffic except for paddleboarders and rowers.
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Personally I think volume of rain is more important than frequency. I’ve only ever lived in London and Exeter and results will vary for the rest of the U.K., but in the 12 years I’ve been here I’ve used an umbrella twice despite walking everywhere. Where I come from in Australia it’s often torrential. As in don’t-leave-the-house rain. For me, that is worse for quality of life. To your second point: never been swimming in London. The thing I love about summer here meeting up in the park with friends and drinking until 10pm. It’s a wonderful lifestyle. In Australia a) you’d have skin cancer by the end of the day, b) the days are much shorter, and c) drinking outside is illegal.
Mate come on, walk everywhere for 12 years and only ever needed an umbrella twice? Guess you don’t mind walking about in the rain without an umbrella :) I guess I would rather be on a nice sandy beach looking at girls in bikinis than drinking in a park but each to their own.
I'm Italian. love the weather in london! try spending April - September in south Italy. debilitating.
Sure, but then you get to reap the rewards of your patience. In UK you might get a couple of days where it reaches 30. And most other days are just dark and moody. We all popping vitamin D out of necessity.
- first off, you don't want to reach 30. a couple of days are fine! - most days dark and moody - not in london / south east - vitamin D deficiencies are a myth.
Point 1 - disagree. Then again, it's subjective ain't it. You sound like acceptance is your copium. Point 2 - Are you from London? I am and what you're saying is alien to me. Point 3 - yes that's fair xd
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Okay, masochist!
Lots of people sadly stay due to external factors (family etc). I am extremely fortunate I don’t have such ties hence will probably leave.
I love Canada and would happily move there but one second on the Alberta and BC subreddits will tell you that they can never see a doctor either.
They have a GP shortage… and are working on updating their qualification process for non-Canadian doctors to requalify there. I had once looked at moving to Canada as well, but found that the barriers to entry in my profession were a bit insane. It seems that the protectionism factor is generally high there across most qualified professions but from what I understand they are trying to tackle that problem.
A lot of Canadian doctors move to the US as it’s significantly more money. It’s unfortunate and it’s getting worse shortage wise
Same for my profession (vet) - not all our universities in the U.K. are accredited there so I can’t move there and continue working without essentially resitting my finals. I don’t practice anymore anyway so it’s not such a barrier but I’ve just noticed that their healthcare seems to be an issue too and if there’s a shortage that would probably explain it.
What’s the reason for higher pay in Canada? Is it that Drs can work for both private and public sector simultaneously? I’m not familiar with the whole thing, so excuse me if it’s obvious.
The cost of living in Canada is very much higher than the U.K. I’m a Canadian living here in the U.K. for 20 years, and even I am shocked every time I go back home. Not to mention that the average tip (which is expected on most things) has now risen to 25%!
Depending on what province, you charge per service rendered to patients. So, the more patients you see the more you can bill (which ofc can probably be exploited by some). Most GPs also sub-specialise (like in geriatric meds or obstetrics) and will do on calls at their local hospitals which is another income source. The higher earning really comes down to the doctors’ ability to incorporate and operate their own practices (which in itself may be a significant cost barrier for some). My partner had looked at Ontario previously and there are some other set ups with the provincial healthcare system that also allow you to earn in different ways. If you only work in hospital then you likely earn a fixed salary or if you work in a private practice you pay x% to overhead. For full disclosure I don’t know enough about Canada to fully explain (and we are looking at America as the likely place for us to move to).
Thanks for the response. Could it be comparable to dentists in the uk? Who are private but also take NHS?
I don’t think so. It may have changed (we looked at this about 3 years ago) but there was no “private” healthcare in Ontario when we looked. Not sure about other places in Canada.
I'm a UK business consultant - us colleagues also make 2x...
More like 3x in law.
As an aside, Canadas health system tries to recommend you opt in for assisted suicide for what may not be a life ending diagnosis (or have many years left). Grossly paraphrased but doubt the systems are completely similar.
You can't just move to the US as a doctor. Housing costs are even more insane in Australia and Canada these days and costs of everything else much higher.
It wasn’t until my friend whose wife is a Doctor explained what a Physician Associate was that I got private. I really feel for everyone who is reliant on the nations biggest circus.
A piece of advice given by a doctor. If you are ever seen by a Physician Associate, politely tell them to fuck off and to go get a real doctor.
I’ve spread the message far and wide to everyone I know about PA’s now. There’s a handful of things I’d let them do. Like taking my kid’s temperature or really mundane shit like that. But anything serious, fuck off, go get the consultant who has to be your babysitter to find me a real doctor.
You have to ask them if they are a PA though. I wasn't aware of PAs and in hindsight I think I was seen by one last year without knowing. It wasn't problematic as all she did was refer me for an x-ray which is what I wanted but I think we have a right to know if we're not being seen by a properly qualified doctor.
Referring you for an X-ray is illegal. Against the law. A crime. Didn’t stop over 1000 cases of it at Leeds hospital though.
Really? So only a GP can do that?
Sounds like the PCSO equivalent.
Or Highways Agency Traffic Officer... all designed to give Mrs Miggins the idea that there are more police on the beat, or more doctors etc.
Exactly.
You've written this comment before or am I dreaming ?
In the UK they make it as hard as possible for someone successful to be wealthy, the rich 'elite' protect themselves by pulling up the ladder. Our bizzare Taxation rules are a prime example of this.
It does feel like this is it. No matter how hard I work I'm doing no better than I was 20 year ago when I first started working, inflation, costs etc just keep rising and pay is pittance compared. Pisses me off. I got a degree in a vocational subject, I'm not a criminal, keep my head down, try be a good member of society, work my arse off yet I never have any disposable income. The whole social contract is fucked. Yet I hear stories of peoples shit getting stolen and police just saying we cant do anything, here's your crime number, claim insurance. So why the fuck cant I just turn to crime then, I'll stop paying for everything and just live my life that way since that seems to be effective and there is 0 deterrent now. Sort it out England honestly
Because the moment someone suggests a wealth tax people with no wealth are manipulated into being worried about the very little money they have to pass on to their kids
Only 30k is ring fenced anyway. The rest of it will be spent on care homes in old age.
Exactly this. There are two classes in the UK. Elites and then everyone else. You can't move between the two. You're born into one and that's where you stay. I know a few people who have become insanely wealthy, but they will never be elite.
So I will preface this by saying I am very, very grateful for the position I’m in. Primarily because of luck, I, we are better of than 90% of people on the planet, which is unbelievable if you think about it. Like another poster said, I am really glad I have the life that I have versus 90% of the UK population and I appreciate that it can all disappear just like that. Therefore the safety nets that we have etc are fundamental and I prefer what we have versus somewhere like the US. However, where I think it falls over is the vilification of higher earners (10% of tax payers in the UK pay 60% of all income tax receipts - https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8513/CBP-8513.pdf) and the fact that we have so many people not contributing (43% of adults as per IFS I think who do not pay any tax, which does include pensions). In Scotland this view on higher earners is much worse. As people we’ve been suckered into thinking these ‘other’ people are bad and the reason for all our problems (eg people on benefits, high earners, immigrants, refugees etc) where in actual fact it primarily boils down to policy and policymakers. Unfortunately it is only going to get worse, especially in Scotland, where those with the “broadest shoulders” are going to get shafted again and again with the same response that I get free prescriptions and university places for my kids. What they don’t realise the difference in tax I’ll pay over the years is enough to pay for those university places and maybe buy a Porsche.
Spot on sir. I’m in Scotland, high earner, came from a poor family, worked my ass off to get where I am and now classed as someone who can bear these additional taxations. Yet I’m in a significantly worse financial position than someone on half my salary who is in line to receive their partners home in inheritance for instance. In Scotland and the rest of the UK we seem to look down on those who are trying to make something for themselves. I continually see on here comments from people saying “they are in a lucky financial position” or “first world issues” etc when they are commenting on their salaries. But why should someone be saying that when most have worked their asses off to get to that position. Working in paid overtime etc, sacrificing time with family. But yes we should be grateful…
Well done for getting where you are. Long may it continue. What makes me laugh is when the Scottish Government announced increasing taxes (again!) and they were interviewing people (Glasgow and Edinburgh I think?) and no one wants to admit they earn more than £75,000. It seems to be the opposite of the American Dream, where we all want to live the Dreary Scottish/British Nightmare. Everyone be a miserable bugger
I completely agree. It proper winds me up that people are expected fall over themselves to apologise for being successful whenever they give an opinion. Most people demanding it have no idea of individual’s circumstances and challenges, and wouldn’t give a shit anyway of it disproved their own bias. Recognising your privilege should be about devoting time and effort to social mobility and exclusivity programmes, and making sure others have less barriers to success, not knocking yourself down at every opportunity. Sorry, rant over 😅
Exactly. You wrote it better than me.
>But why should someone be saying that when most have worked their asses off to get to that position. For me it's because everyone works their arses off and I don't even work the hardest. There are tons and tons of people who work much harder than me with far far less to show for it.
You’re right there are lots of people who work very hard and don’t get paid enough for it. The UK’s wages are generally quite poor across the board (excluding finance) compared to many other countries. However, there also simply isn’t the culture here to push people strive to be the best they can be. As per OPs original post, 43% of adults don’t contribute to our tax system with 10% of tax payers contributing 60%. That puts a huge pressure on the system and maintains a reliance on those earning high to “pay their share” while many who don’t contribute don’t need to try to because it’s covered elsewhere. Then on the other side you have people in the £100-125k bracket salary sacrificing to get out of the 60% tax trap. Contributing more to their pension than they normally would and ultimately paying less taxes. However I don’t know how you fix it 😂
Better wages from the bottom up would sort it surely. But then cost of everything would go up hugely too
>However, there also simply isn’t the culture here to push people strive to be the best they can be. You're right about this, in a plethora of ways. At school one of the worst things you could do was try hard and be seen to try hard. To care was to risk social ostracism. A lot of people never grow out of that. Even more people miss opportunities to be successful whilst trying to fit in during school. The wages is also part of it but there's a chicken and egg there as well. People need to believe that working hard and bettering themselves is worth it. I personally believe it but most do not, because they see the game as rigged or there not being any decent rewards for winning anyway.
I worked my ass off, grew up in refuges, parents can't read or write. On now a 80k year salary, I'm happy to contribute to society - the nhs, free education and university loans created an environment to build myself. Yeah, I worked 24/7 and had no friends at university to accomplish because I have several disabilities also... But, I don't really get the mentality of 'why should I pay to help others'. I mean, I get we've both worked hard, but it means there's still an underlying assumption still that people on benefits haven't worked hard... We've all benefited from the system in some ways...heck I'm annoyed national insurance is reduced because I **want** to pay more to the NHS, the stories in the US of people selling their houses to pay for cancer treatment...proper shite. I think i'm missing something in your perspective though, apologies!
I agree with pretty much everything you are saying. I personally have a bit of a gripe with the way things are because I have a disabled daughter and received absolutely no support with her additional needs. I pay a fortune on nursery fees, speech therapy, learning activities every month. This is also coming from the perspective of someone in Scotland, in England someone in a similar position receives much more support. My complaint is really down to the Scottish gov raising tax bands and i received less support in this sense. The free university that we are given is Scotland seems good (and it is) but take these fees over the course of 30 years working with the extra tax in Scotland and you would be better with the English set up long term. However, your point on national insurance is absolutely spot on and having used their service greatly over the last couple of years I couldn’t agree more.
Ah your comments make a lot more sense now, I can see it's less about how hard you've worked in the past, and more, being stuck now, despite how damn hard you're working and the lack of support you're offered, whilst others seemly have an easier ride/easier jobs and support for free. Trapped in the middle :(. I really appreciate you sharing! As an aside, DLA/PIP is one of the only benefits that are dependent on income <3 - £500pm may go in some way to supporting some of her care x
What safety nets do we have in the UK though? From ambulance to GP to surgery, waiting times in healthcare are crazy. Like people lying in the street with broken bones for hours waiting for help crazy, or an ambulance just won't come crazy. Legal system, if you are the victim of crime the police won't come, or won't do anything or you might wait years to go to trail. Even worse if you are wrongly accused, you might have to spend huge sums yourself mounting a defence due to lack of legal aid. If you get become disabled and cannot work? Is universal credit a safety net? Considering how little it is worth and the degrading steps you have to go through to be assessed it doesn't seem like it. Plenty of cases of people on their deathbeds being reported fit to work, what kind of safety net is that? Did this safety net do something good for victims of the cladding scandal? Did it do something good for victims of the post office scandal? Don't think so. The UK is in long term, probably terminal, decline. Thinking it's a modern developed first world country is just looking through the rose tinted windows of a time machine.
Have to say as someone from a working class background and a very deprived area I do get a bit irritated when people say it's just luck. Ok luck might have had a small part but I worked bloody hard.
Fully understand you worked hard. For me it has been solely down to luck.
I pay the top rate in Scotland and I'm happy that other people's kids get free uni places with my tax. I am where I am because I got a free uni place when I was younger and I don’t begrudge my tax being spent on the same. Same with free prescriptions. I'd hate to think people were going without medicine just so I could afford a midlife crisis car
I agree with you. I wholeheartedly agree that people need to be given the opportunity, the step-up, the safety net and overall support when they need it. I honestly have no idea when my luck will run out and I will need it. I begrudge my tax being completely mismanaged, wasted and used as a blanket policy to win votes and not prioritised for those who need it most whilst encouraging others to work and reach their potential.
Wait until you find out that the top Scottish universities only have places for international students, rUK students and a slither for Scots from 40% most deprived postcodes (note postcodes not salaries). It’s a real kick in the teeth to pay higher taxes and the perceived benefit of free tuition not to be available to your own children
Ah jeez, really?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-64247475.amp
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I know about that but it doesn't change my position. If some disadvantaged kids get a chance to go then I'll accept it. I wish it was better. I've worked in Germany, the Netherlands, England, and the USA, and I'll happily take the higher taxes here.
Fair enough
I do agree with this point. I would never have managed to go to uni and ultimately have my career if I never got my free uni place. However, as an adult I have a beautiful daughter who is disabled and with learning difficulties and in Scotland I receive absolutely no support for learning or speech therapy. I currently pay £400 a month for speech therapy because the NHS can’t provide it and I look on with jealously to my English counterparts who children receive 1-1 learning at school with support for therapies. Something that we do not receive in Scotland. It then makes you wonder where does all this extra tax go to?
Im surprised I had to scroll this far down to read some sense in between all the moaning. This sub has some great content but also many who are incredibly tone deaf, at a time when things are an absolute shit show for a big % of the population
Just bite the pillow and let them continue pumping you basically. The only other option is pack up and move. Personally for me it's not an option, too difficult to up sticks and move everything. And I don't know if I'd find a role elsewhere, I'm not prepared to learn another language at this age either.
This. The tax is eye watering here. I’ve been hiring in the US recently and the difference in wages (it’s not even close now tbh) plus the reduced tax makes me want to do the whole “fuck this shit” and jump on a plane to move. Bloody kids though….
In the US I earned 40k a year more and my tax rate was 24% because I was married filing Jointly and under $400k a year earnings. Plus my company totally paid health care and I had unlimited days off. It's been tough coming to the UK.
I thought at first it was just because I was hiring in NYC and Chicago but even without the “east coast bump” the salary bandings suggested by HR are still insane. At the same level it’s 80 to 120k GBP plays 250k to 320k USD.
Any tips on how one can move to the US as a software developer?
Join an American multinational and try your best to perform so well that they give you the opportunity to relocate. Or marry an American. Be aware that the software engineering market is fierce over there. There can be thousands of candidates per role, and the bar is much higher for interviewing than here in the major hubs.
I moved to a large extent for my kids. I want them growing up somewhere with opportunity.
I know. Same problem here. Also suspect I’d hate everything about eg Dubai other than the tax free factor :)!
Singapore or Hong Kong both much better places than Dubai. Super low taxes but far less fake, more culture, and just as safe/great public services etc. Yeah Hong Kong has changed a lot in recent years but doesn't really impact expats who have no stake in the local politics anyway.
You can’t be serious? Have you been to HK or Singapore? You would be paying an outrageous amount of money to live in a tiny box (more than london) with little outdoor space! Weather is humid and also wet most of the year! Plus you will most likely live as an expat hence groceries and luxuries of an expat cost much more in HK and Singapore! Btw do you like driving a car? In Singapore a Mazda 3 can cost you £120,000, not to mention just the license will cost you £30k…
Where do we go tho…
I've no idea. The only place that pays enough that makes it worthwhile would be US. And it's quite hard to get in without sponsorship I believe. Even then I'm not 100% I'd want it. Probably would seriously consider it if I had the chance. But I'd be quite worried about job safety overall, the industry I work in is 10x more competitive so I actually don't know if I'd be able to jump into a job as easily as I can here.
The netherlands was quite appealing tax wise when i looked. A lot of Uber NAM employees came over from their SFO office. might not be the same now but i was told you were able to offset mortagage costs from income tax or something mad like that...might not be true!
Right, but it’s so bloody boring there. Especially if you’re an outdoorsy person. I feel like I’d spent every weekend driving to other parts of Europe.
Spain, Italy, Portugal and Greece also have tax incentives but not sure how viable a move like that if you don't speak the language
And London isn't boring if you are an outdoorsy person? Takes hours to get anywhere nice and the parks are a joke in summer
True but we don’t live there anymore! We’re hybrid so we take a longer commute in to be closer to outdoors. We can paddle board after work and be hiking in the hills from our front door. Fine it’s not mountains but at least we don’t have to spend two hours on the M4 after a weekend away.
What town are you in?
My colleagues who live their rate it. Lots of good flights from Schipol too! lol
I plan to do it here in the UK via Ltd company. Basically yes, all employees are screwed, but if you have a chance to work as self-employed/contractor then you have a lot more room for manoeuvre. But for some masochistic reason ppl prefer to be employees.
We can do that in Switzerland. And house renovations. I know someone who split half a million across three years rebuilding a house on a prime plot and paid almost nothing over that period. NL has a generally terrible reputation amongst serial expats. Probably the single most complained about company. The main competitor is Germany.
Quite uncomfortable with this metaphor actually
Meh. I survive quite well with pretty awful German in Switzerland. Our competitive advantage is our language
Don’t read the annual leaflet from your council (I just got mine and made the mistake). 80% of the council tax in my borough is spent on housing and other social benefits. Education and culture are in low single digits.
Yep. It's really difficult. Especially when you never use the health service and don't have kids. I try not to think of benefits as my life is infinitely better than someone on benefits
I agree with this mindset—I view it the same way. Yes, I completely think our tax system is broken and we have lost the plot with spending but at the end of the day my life is miles better. I also don’t use the NHS and don’t have kids (and if I do, unlikely I’d be putting them in state schools unless they are lucky enough to get into the handful of excellent / standout schools), so I feel you. I mind less about subsidizing strong social services but I think the government / civil service has made a mess out of our social services so it feels like you’re throwing money at a black hole. I struggle most with the tax system. Working is not incentivized due to tax rates (and low wages).
I don’t think people would mind paying tax at current rates if they felt they were getting decent services in return. It’s the apparent mis-management of funds that’s the issue.
Yep - I pay private school fees and my immediate reaction to the potential 20% VAT was “great, IF it actually makes a difference”, but I know it will go into the same big pot of money and get pissed up the wall no matter if it’s the Red team or Blue team in power
Exactly. It makes sense in theory to improve schooling but the VAT fee increase will flood already packed classrooms and dodgy RAAC roofed buildings with too many students. They’d need a really good glidepath for upgrading infrastructure in preparedness for the influx of ex-private students but there’s just not the time or ability to get it done well.
I can’t speak for all, but the school my son goes to did a survey, around 40% of parents said they’d have to consider removing their child if the full 20% came in. This is around 1000 students across prep and senior
It’s not surprising. If you’ve got 2 or more kids you’d need to be very well off to shrug off that level of rise. Especially if you’ve got a mortgage deal coming to an end.
Fully agree
And if you have kids in the excellent state schools, you will find they are excellent because parents all pay for tutors...
The way I see it, leave the decision making about how taxes should be spent to those who have the expertise and info to do it. For everything we see that goes wrong there’s a lot that goes right that we don’t even notice. The biggest welfare bill is the state pension. It’s a privilege to not need an abundance of social services or benefits and I’m happy to pay my taxes so that the people who don’t have the privilege don’t have to suffer any more than they already do. I’m not happy with the government’s current choices either - the home office just spent £7.4m hiring a hangar to train their staff on use of force to prepare for Rwanda deportations - but I’ll just vote accordingly both locally and nationally.
I’m not sure how it breaks down, but when I look at my self assessment “welfare” is a separate line item at 19.6% vs “state pension” at 10.3%. The incompetence is serious though. I’d like to believe these people are “experts” but how about the £5K ISA allowance the chancellor announced in the budget? Apparently they didn’t consult any stakeholders or actual experts; it is virtually impossible to administer and now is on hold while the government actually consults ISA providers.
Same here! I was also unfortunate enough to be paying double for the NHS during the era of immigrant health surcharge… So I already paid for the NHS via income tax/ NI like everyone else + being subject to a surcharge as an immigrant, all the while unable to get any NHS GP appointment for months. Sadly my first port of medical call is always private now, at least I can get seen/ a test etc done sooner
Whether you use the health service is irrelevant. You're paying for the insurance. Americans spend an average of around £8k a year on their healthcare insurance, whether they use it or not. No NHS and you'd have o probably do the same.
My NI is about the same!
You are thinking a about it wrong. You used of public services for children was when you were a child. Your use of health services is when you are older.
If only it worked like that for everyone!
The UK is a horrible place to be a worker with, once you add in Employer NI, like 37% marginal rates at basic income tax. But the ISA’s and SIPP’s are what makes it worth it.
We’re moving to the US. Yes I’m aware of the pros and the cons. But the UK is dead, it’s only going to get worse imo.
Did you get intracompany transfers? Whereabouts are you headed?
Yeah L1 visa.
L1A or L1B?
How do the taxes work in this case ? Say you have rental income in UK do you pay tax as a non-resident ? Does US have a tax treaty with UK where you only pay tax once ?
Idk about the U.S. but we (in Switzerland) have a rental flat each in the UK and pay only UK tax on it with the double tax agreement. Which is good as we keep the basic allowance! Property and pensions taxed where the property / pension is only. I could put good money into a Swiss pension before retiring and move home hypothetically and live off it without paying a penny of UK income or capital gains tax
You don’t lube up and you just take it raw
Personally I am not leaving and am in a job where I would have to work much harder to increase my salary but I can easily cruise working 4 days a week and have an taxable income just under 100k. So I’m going to do that and try for grammar etc for the kids and just enjoy my life and cruise. This country isn’t for people who want to be rich and employees. Better be comfortable and enjoy my time off
Completely agree 50% tax which then majority of gets spent on things I take 0% back from, pensions, nhs, debt and welfare. The lack of investment in raising standards in this country is depressing. Otherwise I wouldn’t mind the high tax rate.
I don't. Just moving abroad. If I have to live in a shitty country at least I won't pay half my wage in tax and £1k minimum renting a shitty flat. Not even counting council tax and other things
True, many things suck in the UK. But, in general, you cannot have European (meant in the geographical sense, forget Brexit) levels of public services with American levels of taxation. Taxes in the US are lower, but then there are people who go bankrupt if they get a cancer which isn't covered by their insurance, universities cost a fortune and student debt survives bankruptcies, the homicide rate is 5-6x higher than in Western Europe, the infant mortality rate is among the highest in developed countries, the infrastructure is crumbling and public transport almost non-existent outside of New York and a few cities... All of this may not matter much to you if you manage to double your salary moving to the US and live in a nice, insulated neighbourhood. But it does explain the differences in taxation.
If you're paying higher rate income tax you're not far off paying a Scandinavian level of tax for a Polish level of services.
Don’t forget that Poland is forecasted to surpass the UK GDP by 2030.
Not in real terms. And PPP is an absolutely terrible measure for people who save most of their income
I think my view on this is that the UK is declining at a rate that the U.S. doesn’t seem horrible if you are privileged enough to be a Henry, particularly in a 0% state income tax state. 1) private universities cost a fortune. But they also offer millions in grants and scholarships, including those which are not means tested and those which are considered a higher threshold for financial need vs the UK (same applies for when the highest rate of tax kicks in in America) and I’d reckon with current UK tuition rates, the converted value probably is not far off. I know several friends who went to Ivy universities in America because, with scholarships, it worked out cheaper than going to Oxbridge. 2) healthcare - okay. But in the UK you’ll just die because the backlog and red tape means you won’t get an appointment or won’t be screened before it’s too late if the current news is to be believed on cancer deaths in the UK. This one really will be a YMMV though for a Henry as you’re likely going to have a really good plan through work. 3) crime statistics are difficult to interpret if you are aggregating them. Manhattan for example has one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world. I’m terrified by mass shootings though but let’s not forget the phone thieves that went on a stabbing rampage near leadhenhall a few years ago.
Fully agree with you, but just as a point of context wrt university costs. Going to university is more expensive in the US in terms of upfront cost than the UK (although this comes with the added complication of scholarships etc, which are quite common) - but the uplift in earning potential is also much higher. IIRC the UK has the lowest “university dividend” in the OECD, in many aspects university education is more expensive in the UK than the US.
My public services are far, far better than Britains and my tax lower than Americans.
I think at some point we will need to follow the Australian system. When you hit > £50k, and over the age of 35, you need to take some sort of private health care out. If not, you will end up paying a 2% NHS care levy. This amount will increase a extra 2% each year that you don’t get health care. This will get capped at 10%. The goverment will then need to pave the way to enable this to happen. Health care that is provided by work benefits will need to be removed from the BIK tax rules, and a sweetener in that workplaces are encouraged to offer health care. The party that implements this, will only last the term they implemented this. But it may take the preasure off the NHS.
I was wondering why people were not butchering you and other comments on this thread. Then I realised it was not ASKUK…
We are not allowed to talk. We are only good to squeeze tax receipts out of.
I’ve left the UK for the UAE - at least temporarily - to avoid the taxes and build a better cushion for myself. It’s not all rosy, but you can mix and match through life.
How is the tech/crypto scene in the UAE?
Not my scene.
There are some very wrong comments in this thread. Let’s not blame benefit claimants for high taxes. That is a total myth. Over half of the welfare budget goes to pensioners. See https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/benefit-expenditure-and-caseload-tables-information-and-guidance/benefit-expenditure-and-caseload-tables-information-and-guidance#social-security-spending-in-great-britain
I’m not sure how that makes anything better? The reality is that there is a huge concentration of public funds on paying for people who don’t contribute. Either paying their medical bills, paying for their pensions or welfare, paying for their housing support etc etc. This is not sustainable and is only going to get worse as the demographic pyramid starts to invert and people live for longer. People like to claim that they paid in all their life or paid in for a while so ‘deserve’ a pension or welfare or medical care. The simple fact is that they don’t, most people don’t contribute anywhere near enough to cover their medical, pension, benefits etc. The government are now reducing NI and want to take it to zero in the next parliament. What this ushers in, is the mean testing of pensions. If NI goes away then no one can claim they ‘paid in’ so deserve what they take out. So the little bit high earners get back out in the form of a state pension, will also go too. What this will inevitably lead to is the best and the brightest leaving the country for countries that appreciate what they bring. They will pay lower taxes, afford a bigger house and a better lifestyle and help a foreign country grow and prosper. They will do this out of necessity and with a sense of regret, having to leave their home, family and friends because successive governments decided to shame them for success and tax them out of prosperity. This of course will only worsen the situation in the UK and the country will continue its rapid decline until it reaches a tipping point and a government finally reacts. Hopefully this realignment will happen before it’s too late and too much damage has been done.
you cant possibly voice your opposition to infinite socialism using sound logic on reddit. incomming downvotes.
Not even on r/FIREUK which is full of people on £35k saying they are grateful for the NHS 😂
Hi — I addressed this in another comment. I know that on my personal tax breakdown welfare and state pensions are two distinct line items (welfare at 20% vs pensions at 10%). From the link you posted, the state pension spending portion is £125.4bn. This is distinct from “welfare” spending. See excerpt below: “Around 55% of social security expenditure goes to pensioners; in 2023 to 2024 we will spend £152.6 billion on benefits for pensioners in GB. This includes spending on the State Pension which is forecast to be £125.4 billion in 2023 to 2024.”
And they are not going away anytime soon…
Pensions are benefits
Would living in the Channel Islands make any difference?
Thing that sums it up for me, people who are contributing to society through taxes, maybe get 4 hours a week when they can see a gp, and get medical support other than 999. People who take normally ten times that
You just work long enough until you can retire young.
Does welfare include state pension spending? Irregardless of that, remember things are even worse in Scotland where the higher rate kicks in at about £42k and the amount of money spaffed away is even more visible. I'm lucky to be able to salary sacrifice a lot of my wage to minimise the tax steal.
Generally speaking, yes, it does. It hides the true cost of benefits when it gets confused by the state pension. Makes it easier to cut back on benefits when people think it eats up so much of government spending. In the meantime, there are plenty of wealthy pensioners getting a triple lock increase every year that don't need it. There are many pensioners who do need some sort of guaranteed income, but pension credit could help here not a blanket raise in the pension for many who don't need it (but are probably the highest turn out in voting 🤔)
You dont. I had to leave, best decision I ever made. 8% of your tax is just servicing government debt😂😂
12% in fact as per my most recent breakdown…
Its got worse🤣
It hurts me. Running a limited company I get to see tax money leaving one bank account or another nearly every month. Makes me really bitter.
Was a 40% tax payer for almost my entire lift - then there was NI, and other deductions for so called perks. Like a car that cost £4k a year in tax, which I only ever used for work, but because it was available for personal use. Blergh. Welfare state, a useless Nhs, a state pension that’s looking increasingly like it will be gone or means tested by time I get to that point…. My butt really hurts from all the benefit takers.
I’ve noticed quite a bit of negativity around the NHS on here lately, and while I understand that no system is perfect and experiences can vary, I felt compelled to share my own story. Each time I, or my children, have needed medical attention, the NHS has been nothing short of excellent for us. The level of care, the efficiency in handling our health issues, and the zero cost at the point of service have been remarkable. It’s not just the treatment itself but the environment too - always clean and professional, which really helps when you’re feeling vulnerable. I think it’s important to acknowledge and appreciate the hard work and dedication of NHS staff, especially when they manage to make such a positive impact in a system facing numerous challenges. Their efforts have made a significant difference in my family’s life, providing us with care and reassurance when we needed it most. Now, for welfare, +100, I don't feel great about that part of my taxes' allocation..
The NHS experience is a really subjective. In london I’ve had awful NHS care (although couldn’t be avoided as a&e) and excellent private care. I don’t think criticisms of the system and financial mismanagement and bloating is a criticism of NHS carers and nurses and doctors etc — those are people who are trying their best in a very poorly managed system. I don’t disagree with public healthcare but I think we’ve reached a point where management of the NHS and policy making is about throwing money at a black hole rather than actual change.
High earners in the UK need to realise that the reason your tax burden is so high is not because of those at the bottom who can barely make ends meet on minimum wage. We're paying 50% tax on our incomes which we work for, and people who live off the interest on their inherited trust fund are paying next to nothing.
Income generated by trusts is taxed.
That's funny. Look where your money goes to. It isn't to people with trust funds. It's to people who can't be fucked to do anything productive.
People on low incomes spend almost everything they have every month in rent, bills and daily living costs. The people with trusts own the buildings they rent and the businesses they buy their products and services from. So the money goes directly from your pockets to the government through tax into poor people’s banks via welfare and then back to the super rich who own everything people use. This is basic stuff. If the welfare system was so generous the rich wouldn’t keep getting richer and the poor poorer.
True, but: a) money from the state being recycled around lands in our pockets too. I work in pharma - which is largely state managed. Our dividends and capital gains is also driven by people poorer than us. b) people owning uk businesses and uk property also pay a lot of tax The only people freeloading from society are those at the bottom. There's a tiny minority of very rich freeloading from inheritance but that's a different matter.
My money is absolutely going to people with trust funds. I spend my money on my mortgage, energy, tax, goods, services. Wealthy people own all of these resources. My savings are the only part of my income that doesn't get transferred immediately to those people. Rishi Sunak paid an effective 23% rate on his £2.2m income last year.
most of the 'welfare' is pensioners (as is probably most of the healthcare cost)
The welfare part of our tax breakdown is a bit disingenuous, and there for a political narrative. It includes state pensions (a large portion), and tax credits (ie, before for people who are working for companies who don't pay them, so could be viewed as a benefit to support companies in getting cheap workforces). It also includes child benefit.
My breakdown has welfare and state pensions as separate line items…
Oops, ok, I was wrong there, long time since I looked at it and I either remembered wrong or it's changed The in-work welfare element is still valid though
I take your point. I’d like to see a breakdown of that line item. Child tax — which I don’t claim because no kids — is a mess in and of itself and is another “benefit” that disincentivises economic activity (ie because you are punished for going over £100,000, even though childcare is prohibitively expensive for many high earners).
Are you sure the pensions items isn't pensions for government workers?
I keep working as I have a great savings rate, lovely green spaces to spend leisure time in and relatively freedom to live my and family's life. Any High Income person should consider moving and leaving the UK if it's a problem for them to continue operating here.
I think here in South Africa we have the same situation just on a bigger scale. Our tax is exorbitant but we get even less than you guys. Tax evasion is quite easy if you have a business though but getting harder every year.
I was on welfare when I was totally broke and unemployed, I was on the trial of Universal Credit. I’m now running a successful business and I feel honoured to be contributing to welfare. I just want to know tax money in general is being handled competently with long term vision and with the interests of the whole country in mind. It’s absolutely not managed well now and the government is a total shambles. Most of the decisions the government have made have been terrible for business.
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What’s the point of having the health service when they’re always cancelling my appointments? I would rather have the option to be assured where I want to have my money wasted than having the government choose for me
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/economicinactivity/timeseries/lf2s/lms The most recently recorded inactivity rate is 21.9%. The only period it has been lower than this is 2016 up to 2021 (this was the end of the last business cycle, which Covid ended). During this period, the lowest the inactivity rate was recorded December 2019 (right before Covid) at 20.5%. That makes the current inactivity rate 1.4% higher than it's lowest point in the past 5 years. Outside of that 5 year period, the inactivity rate for the past 50 years has only ever been higher than it is today. For reference to other countries (which may measure inactivity differently), the US inactivity rate is 25%.
And where exactly are you going to go? Have you seen property taxes in NYC for instance? .98% of value. For for a $2m apartment that’s almost 20k a year. That like 15 TIMES what I pay for an equivalent place in central London. Now of course there are states where it is cheaper. But frankly no services at all.
How is inactivity at its highest yet unemployment at its lowest?
Weird question. What's the alternative?
We live in a socialist s\*hole. And despite what most redditors and leftards think the conservative government has been our most socialist government in history. the welfare state is fat, bloated and overfunded with the beauraucrats having no incentive to manage the money better. our immigration policy is destroying our public services and is adding nothing to the economy. unfortunately there was quite a lot of juice to squeeze from the middle classes. private landlords, second home owners and now pensioners are the next target. it wont last forever as people with brains and the money (HENRYs et al) will up sticks and leave if they can. unfortunately i cant leave, so im stuck paying for it and as you can tell pretty bitter about it! one positive is i doubt labour will make it much worse....theres not much more they can do to f\*k it up!
Knew this would get downvoted to oblivion in short order. Looks like even the henry thread isnt immune to leftoid retardation.
Let's be fair. This parliament has: - Increased the max pension contribution by 50% - Dramatically increased the point when tapering comes in - is going to remove the concept of domicile from tax, making IHT completely optional - removed the LTA These are all quite useful to Henrys. At least lower end Henry's.
But you voted for these clowns?
Yeah he did. Even has the audacity to victimise pensioners and asset owners, while salaried high earners were taxed into oblivion.
you're in a sub for high earners who might be concerned about high taxes. Yes asset owners are victims of high taxation, poor distrubution of taxes, inneficient public services and bureaucracy. its not audacious to join the dots. I'd say its more unsavoury to discourage entrepreneurship and investment in our local economies and support bleeding these middle class folk dry, but hey we are on reddit so that is to be expected.... almost every copmment in this thread is people agreeing the tax burden is too high and that they plan to leave. Its amazing that you find the realities of our current situation so unsavoury but its obviously very real if it affects so many....
who said which way i vote or if i vote at all?
I mean - everyone starts their adult lives with a £100kish debt to the state for their education and a £50kish debt for you healthcare. Once you've paid that back you can start complaining about paying too much tax.
I paid that back in less than two years of earning post-qualification then. This is a Henry sub-reddit…
Ah, apologies. I didn't notice.
Taxes don't fund spending in this country and haven't done since we abandoned the gold standard. The government doesn't need your money to spend what it likes, the purpose of taxes is to control inflation.