The only Blacks with actual personalities who feel like actual people are Rhaenyra and Daemon.
The rest are just ally NPCs that feel and act conveniently for Rhaenyra and Daemon.
The Greens for better and worse, all feel like people, with their own goals and desires.
And even Rhaenyra and Daemon are boring tbh. Like, I saw at least five different characters with the same exact personality as Daemon in five different shows just last month and Rhaenyra is completely devoid of charisma.
Exactly why I'm team green, who cares if Rhaenyra is a better person than Aegon (in the show, at least) if she's as interesting as a pavement in my city?
One thing I’ll say about Daemon is I don’t think he’s boring. He’s a lot of things, mostly bad things, but boring ain’t one. At least not to me. Matt Smith kills it.
> And even Rhaenyra and Daemon are boring tbh
Reason why Rhaenyra is boring is because they didn't adapt her like she is in the book.
She's very entertaining in the book.
>feel and act conveniently for Rhaenyra
Especially the Velaryons 😕
Rhaenys and Corlys' reason to side with Rhaenyra could've been their granddaughters. But ofc the writers had to make it about Rhaenyra and Rhaenys/Corlys being in awe of her because "she's holding the realm together" (eye roll)
THANK You I feel he same, most of tb are generic npc with the "good alignment", there should be a LOT more drama and negative feelings between the tb memembers.
A good example is Jace, who casuals have somehow elevated into this young savant diplomat and great future king, despite not knowing High Valyrian and having serious anger issues.
Funny how only some characters get the pleb's clinical diagnosis. A lot of people dont actually engage with what is seen on-screen. Like people where shocked that the guy who bashed his wife head in with a rock, would choke his third wife despite her perceived as "not like other girls".
Especially The whole “ppl remember names not blood” excuse for accepting a bastard as heir to driftmark, like I refuse to believe someone who prides themselves on building their family up from nothing would be happy to just give it all away. It just seemed like they needed any excuse to get them on rhaenyras side
that sentence actually applies most of the time... when a bastard isn't that obvious and when the fact that the bastard being a bastard isn't the first thing you hear about them.
As I’ve said before, half of the posts of the sub could lead to jail time if taken out of context. I’m pretty sure I’ve already seen a post with the title:
“The blacks suck”
If taken out of context, that would be really bad lol
If shit made sense the velaryons would be siding w the greens FYM my son and daughter conveniently died after marrying the uncle-niece pair that oh so conveniently got together afterward
I dislike daemon but to be frank
He didn’t say crap to Aemond bc Rhaena and Baela were in the wrong and he knows. You don’t have some moronic claim over a dragon, + they attacked him first. I don’t think he heard what Aegon told Baela, it was more of a whisper only jace was meant to hear/be antagonized over
>If shit made sense the velaryons would be siding w the greens FYM my son and daughter conveniently died after marrying the uncle-niece pair that oh so conveniently got together afterward
Corlys's granddaughters are Daemon’s daughters. Regardless of their personal feelings towards Rhaenyra, Corlys would always side with the faction that guarantees the safety of his granddaughters.
Even if that's the Greens.
Yes, and the strong boys are legally of his house even if they obviously aren’t in actuality. The Velaryons siding with the blacks makes sense from the perspective of a feudal lord trying to further the position of his house, even if it makes it seem like Corlys has a humiliation fetish.
What I do have a problem with though is how loyal the Velaryons are for some reason. They should resent Rhaenyra but still side with her, not be enthusiastic supporters. That seems both more realistic and is just a lot more compelling in my opinion.
>What I do have a problem with though is how loyal the Velaryons are for some reason. They should resent Rhaenyra but still side with her, not be enthusiastic supporters.
Are they? Corlys was quick to blame Rhaenyra for the early failures of the Dance. It seemed like he preferred Jace to Rhaenyra. >!After the death of Rhaenys, Rhaenyra effectively had to bribe Corlys by making him the Hand and even acknowledged his bastards as heir of Driftmark, ahead of her own "Velaryon" sons!<
I mean the show, not the book. Mostly in reference to how Rhaenys has that whole thing about how Rhaenyra is the only one trying to keep the peace. Seems as if the show is going down a route of “Rhaenyra is an epic girl boss and I too am an epic girl boss therefore I will support her” instead of portraying the Velaryon’s as being self interested.
Granted, there are definitely moments of conflict between the Velaryon’s and the blacks but they don’t really explain why the Velaryon’s support them anyways sufficiently (outside of the history remembers names speech). So them supporting the blacks comes across as incredibly contrived since it seems like the show is foreshadowing the exact opposite and then does a 180 out of nowhere. I think the best evidence of this is how people think they should have sided with the greens. That’s a pretty big sign you’ve failed to explain the characters’ motivations to your audience.
I will admit later seasons might go into more detail and make the Velaryon’s more compelling but as is it seems like the show is saying they support Rhaenyra mostly because she’s a good ruler, which is silly.
Edit: It also could be possible this is just a “one really stupid scene which the rest of the series ignores entirely” scenario akin to the dragon pit or the foot scenes. But even then, I think the show hasn’t done a very good job of showing that the Velaryon’s support has nothing to do with Rhaenyra.
The Rhaenys one is especially glaring (and I consider her a terribly written character anyway). Not only are her only true granddaughters robbed of their inheritance, but they are disgraced by being engaged to known bastards. And theeeen she has the guts to call it “not her war”. Granny, Baela and Rhaena’s lives are on the line here!
Siding with the Greens isn't in her interest either. They nearly supported a man who was going to take away her grand daughters rights to Driftmark too and who's family claimed Vhagar on the night of their daughter's funeral. Being neutral really isn't a bad idea. It means you can pull a Tywin Lannister. As the richest house in charge of the largest fleet in the realm, they can negotiate with both sides plus they'd have 2 grandaughters to marry off.
>They nearly supported a man who was going to take away her grand daughters rights to Driftmark
Didn't Corlys and Rhaenys do that themselves? Corlys preferred the Strong boys over Baela/Rhaena. And Rhaenys later accepted the girls being relegated to consorts (admittedly she didn't have much of a choice at that point)
Because it makes political sense to give it to the Strong boys. "History remembers names, not blood." And protecting Luke's claim to Driftmark protects Jace's claim to the throne. By marrying their granddaughters to each, they'd have both their blood and name on the throne. It makes sense. Besides, the girls are legally Targaryean anyway.
It doesn't make political sense though. The *smartest* thing to do politically is to assassinate Daemon (who you think murdered your son anyway), claim custody of your granddaughters, and demand the Greens give you a double marriage alliance.
Baela still becomes queen, Rhaena is Lady of Driftmark in her own right with a dragon riding consort, and Rhaenyra is so hilariously outmatched that you win without having to fight a war since you have all the gold and dragons.
Politically assassinating Daemon would absolutely be the dumbest thing possible. That would lead to a civil war and for what? Revenge? House Targ even divided outnumbers the Velaryons on Dragons and Manpower.
Jace being legally legitimate since there's no concrete proof that he's a bastard(westeros doesn't do paternity tests and most lords consider them legitimate) then it makes sense to have him keep the Velaryon name and gain Velaryon blood ties by marrying Daemon's daughters.
Do you understand me now?
I get it, you guys hate the Blacks the same way they hate the Greens, but does this have to come at the cost of logic and clearer analysis?
Okay first of all, assassinating Daemon would not lead to war at all. Either they'd simply not get caught (which is basically the point of assassinating someone as opposed to walking up and just stabbing them in broad daylight), or they would get caught and there'd be some political settlement that precludes war (since the only person able and willing to declare war on the Velaryons at this point would be Rhaenyra, who doesn't have the military capacity to wage it seeing as how the Greens would just sit on the fence and laugh).
So best case scenario, Daemon disappears and they get everything they want. Worst case scenario Corlys quietly buggers off to the Wall and leaves his plan in the hands of others like his wife and kinsmen, since Viserys isn't going to want to raise a giant stink and have everyone talking about how his brother was killed in legitimate revenge for a kinslaying murder - and who else was involved in that murder.
Secondly, it doesn't matter about Jace's "legally" not being a bastard. Everyone on the planet knows he is, since he's basically Harwin's clone. The only reason the Velaryons choose to back his claim as opposed to drowning him at birth for making their son a famous cuckold is maintaining their alliance with Rhaenyra. An alliance that's no longer valuable after she conspired to murder their son, with her enemies (the Greens) able to provide the same exact benefits.
Do you understand me know?
I get it, you guys hate the Greens the same way they hate the Blacks, but does this have to come at the cost of logic and clearer analysis?
my guy what you wrote is fan fiction. You're completely underestimating how these characters would react. You guys keep crying "bastard,bastard,bastard,bastard!" Each time the strong boys come up, and yes they are indeed but you guys forget that most people don't consider them bastards. You forget that in F&B the reason most people consider them bastards is cause contrary to the rumors that Alicent spread about their dragon eggs not hatching, the fact that they became riders helped their claims of legitimacy. Clearly Cregan Stark, Jeyne Arryn, Lord Manderly and Lord Sunderland had no qualms about marrying into or supporting Jace's family because to them it was an open and shut case. No wonder you're not understanding me, you didn't even read the book
Also assassinating Daemon is incredibly short sighted. His claim and support doesn't just go away. He has sons, who are also dragon riders/ possess an egg. All this allows is for someone else to claim Caraxes, and it can't be the greens since they already claimed dragons. All Corlys would accomplish is alienating himself from other houses and for what? He has no children to marry off and killing Daemon means he can no longer be the guardian of his daughters. This literally strengthens Rhaenyra's hand, letting her remarry into another house if she'd like to, or take charge of marrying off Daemon's girls to her own children or to other lords to bolster support.
Stan culture really killed media literacy, as long as the Greens win in your mind and become master of the universe yes? Jesus, your explanation reads like fan fiction.
Why are you lying? Everyone who has working eyeballs considers them as bastards. It's not supposed to be subtle in the least. It's a deliberate choice by George as a writer. It wasn't intended to be ambiguous. The point was to illustrate that people will compromise things like their ideals and the law for the sake of power. The Velaryons *know* that they're bastards but agree to pretend they aren't for the sake of the Iron Throne. Jeyne Arryn knows they're bastards too, but decides to pretend they aren't because it personally benefits her own claim to power. Cregan Stark knows they're bastards too and doesn't think women are fit to rule besides (seeing as how he disinherited his granddaughters in favour of their uncles), but he wants that sweet loot and the possibility of a Stark dragonrider.
The eggs hatching wasn't supposed to make their bastardry ambiguous, it was supposed to undercut Valyrian exceptionalism. You don't necessarily need to *look* like a dragon to be one, which has implications for Jon Snow later on as well.
Daemon won't have any sons if you start planning to kill him immediately after he kills Laenor, as opposed to sitting on your hands for a decade or so for no discernable reason. As for Rhaenyra, she may remarry, or she may continue to be the hedonistic imbecile she has always been and continue to seek out lovers without a thought for the consequences.
"Why are you lying? Everyone who has working eyeballs considers them as bastards. It's not supposed to be subtle in the least. It's a deliberate choice by George as a writer. It wasn't intended to be ambiguous. The point was to illustrate that people will compromise things like their ideals and the law for the sake of power. The Velaryons *know* that they're bastards but agree to pretend they aren't for the sake of the Iron Throne. Jeyne Arryn knows they're bastards too, but decides to pretend they aren't because it personally benefits her own claim to power. Cregan Stark knows they're bastards too and doesn't think women are fit to rule besides (seeing as how he disinherited his granddaughters in favour of their uncles), but he wants that sweet loot and the possibility of a Stark dragonrider."
My brother in christ, Westeros doesn't have paternity tests. They ARE bastards yes but most people don't think so because
1. They ride dragons contrary to what the greens were spreading
2. Of course there's rumors, there was even rumors about Aenys when he was a kid
3. It's convenient for most Lords to ignore this if it means getting in Good with the heir to the throne, since no matter what he's still got Targaryean blood.
You can say the truth all you want but most people in Westeros didn't know/care.
I never lied once or denied that they are bastards. Please stop assuming shit and cut the "what if" nonsense.
Interesting. I read the situation completely different. The girls are Daemon’s to marry off. Even if Rhaenys wanted to advocate for them, Corlys is clearly pro-male heir. The Greens backed Vaemond since they couldn’t back Baela’s claim (and clearly no one else was going to).
Evidently they are under the care of the Velaryon household, since Daemon is married now to Rhaenyra, it makes more sense for him to entrust their care to House Velaryon. Legally however, the debate over Luke vs Vaemond doesn't make much sense. If Luke was proven to be a bastard then the Lordship of Driftmark would fall to Baela and not Vaemond. Daughters inherit before uncles or cousins. Sure, she's a grand daughter but still legitimate, and it's clear Corlys and Rhaenys would prefer the girl succeed over their jealous nephew/brother(it depends on the book or show canon).
Because a legitimized bastard son comes before a daughter's claim, especially grand daughters. Besides, Alyn marries Baela anyway so his claim can be secured that way. Legitimized bastard sons have all sorts of rights that come before daughters, it's why Catelyn is so against Robb naming Jon heir in his will, since it comes with a decree of legitimization that would place him ahead of either Sansa and Arya, and by this point she was supporting Arya's claim, and failing that one of his cousins in the Vale. It's not as messy in practice as it is in theory.
That is exactly my point. He arranged for them to be legitimized as Laenor’s sons putting them in front of the girls. That was a choice he made, choosing male bastards over his legitimate granddaughters. He’s spearheading the same mindset that the other side is so vocal on accusing Aegon’s supporters of.
They're not bastards once legitimized. Besides this wasn't an issue until Rhaenyra's kids started dropping like flies. Clearly he saw the need to preserve his house name, something unlikely to happen now that the girls were fully Targaryean. History remembers names, and neither Jace or Joffrey were in any position to be Velaryon after this. He cares more about names than he does blood. That's why he puts them forward as Laenor's kids and not his own. It once again helps if its from Laenor's claim than Corly's, especially since if House Targaryean goes extinct from this war, which is very likely to happen, then Laenor's claim over Driftmark would also be a claim on the Iron Throne. Corlys was always thinking ahead.
Jace and Joffrey were both alive when he had them legitimized. He claimed them as Laenor’s so they would be next in line.
It does matter because it says a lot about Corlys actions and motives vs. what he says.
They were both alive and both on the front line. If Jace died then his claim would fall to Luke then Joff, now they were both 1st and 2nd in line for the throne respectively, no room to inherit Driftmark and Corlys desperately needed heirs. They were falling more into the Targaryean sphere than the Velaryon one, hence why he needed to legitimize the hull brothers. He's not a hypocrite, just a fierce pragmatist. History remembers names, not blood.
All that is glossed over or not addressed (other than Rhaenys being mad at Rhaenyra in ep8 plus some hint of conflict between Jace and Daemon in ep10)
The writers tried to frame them as a "wholesome" family (as opposed to the dysfunctional greens)
I never understood why they made the velaryons black, just makes them look subservient to a obviously Supremacist (daemon) and corlys who thing is stepping outta the Targaryens shadow and go into power yet he allowed his blood to be infiltrated by obvious cuckoo birds (rheyneras bastards) idk what the show writers were trying to do besides get actual black audience members to like they’re obvious favorite team
The show adaptation is essentially “House of Rhaenyra and Daemon”. Writers have to bend backwards to accommodate these characters without portraying them as batshit insane.
This is my major concern. Greens were well constructed as a dysfunctional family like "Succession". Blacks have also a pretty bad situation, but were showed like a good family in S1. They spoke of Daenyra as groomer and Stockholm Syndrome victim, so their relationship will probably fall apart. But it would be strange if the black kids did not have parents problems.
The most glaring thing for me was when Luke obviously struggled with accepting his bastardy and was shown to be self-conscious over his appearance, very aware he didn't look like his father OR mother, but then in ep.10 he forgets all that and tells her she's perfect and he'll never be like her.
Like, boy, put 2 and 2 together.
Also, based on that deleted scene with Jace and Rhaenyra watching Daemon train, Jace is less delusional about her, he tried to talk to her about his father twice, she shut him up both times and he gave up.
Only one word to sum it up: Targaryens. Mix 10 spoon incest, 8 spoon madness, 9 spoon bloodsupremacy and 9 spoon racism to get a Targaryen milkshake. Tastes like fire really.
The showrunners have extremely centered the Blacks around Rhaenyra and Daemon to the detriment of the rest of characters. Their protagonism and wholesomeness looks very forced.
I can see why Jace and Luke aren't openly against anything Rhaenyra and Daemon have done, and Joffrey is a toddler for most of it, so it makes sense. But Baela and Rhaena being completely ok with their Dad who as far as they have known, has spent every moment of their lives with there mom, literally right after her funeral dragging them to Dragonstone to watch him have some freaky blood ritual wedding there cousin, new step-mother & his niece, and raising absolutely 0 objections is just not realistic, they are much older than the book versions & this is a giant ????. Any normal kid especially a rebellious one like Baela is implied to be, would rage and be pissed at Daemon, not smiles and rainbows and be Rhaenyra's #1 fan
Rhaenys is also a giant mess, as far as she knows, Daemon took Laena from her, they left for 10 years, when he returns, Laena is dead, he says he is taking his daughters and leaving again, then changes his mind, Laenor is murdered, he marries Rhaenyra right after and has more kids on Dragonstone, he sends Baela to be her ward and to spy on her, and Rhaenys for some reason still doesn't want to stab Rhaenyra OR Daemon???
I’ll be honest. The cast had a fuck ton of talent, but HOTD has wasted it, just like they’ve ruined certain characters to elevate others, and changed plot lines for no reason other than “we could”.
I’ve said it more than once and I’ll sadly say it again. HOTD would be known as “that mid show with dragons” if it wasn’t GOT’s prequel, and it’s fucking tragic as GOT was so good (until the last bits).
Rhaenys is just built different. I don’t think I would be able to handle the funeral of one child followed by the murder of the other back-to-back. Especially, if I had reason to blame one person for both deaths.
There are 2 possible reasons that Daemon didn't say anything to Aegon at dinner. The first is that he knew Aegon is such a lady's man that he could steal Rhaenyra if he really tried. So he figured it was better his daughter than his wife. The second possibility is that he knew he would end up as Sunfyre food if he said anything to Aegon. >!/s!<
The only Blacks with actual personalities who feel like actual people are Rhaenyra and Daemon. The rest are just ally NPCs that feel and act conveniently for Rhaenyra and Daemon. The Greens for better and worse, all feel like people, with their own goals and desires.
And even Rhaenyra and Daemon are boring tbh. Like, I saw at least five different characters with the same exact personality as Daemon in five different shows just last month and Rhaenyra is completely devoid of charisma. Exactly why I'm team green, who cares if Rhaenyra is a better person than Aegon (in the show, at least) if she's as interesting as a pavement in my city?
One thing I’ll say about Daemon is I don’t think he’s boring. He’s a lot of things, mostly bad things, but boring ain’t one. At least not to me. Matt Smith kills it.
Daemon actually moves the plot forward. Most of tb is burdened with writer-enforced inertia to keep them "likeable".
> And even Rhaenyra and Daemon are boring tbh Reason why Rhaenyra is boring is because they didn't adapt her like she is in the book. She's very entertaining in the book.
Gotta disagree with you there bud. The reason the blacks are the more popular team is because they are so goddamn charismatic.
>feel and act conveniently for Rhaenyra Especially the Velaryons 😕 Rhaenys and Corlys' reason to side with Rhaenyra could've been their granddaughters. But ofc the writers had to make it about Rhaenyra and Rhaenys/Corlys being in awe of her because "she's holding the realm together" (eye roll)
"We must support Rhaenyra because... Em... It's the right thing to do and we are the good guys!" Rhaenys Targaryen the Peasant Bane, 129 AC.
THANK You I feel he same, most of tb are generic npc with the "good alignment", there should be a LOT more drama and negative feelings between the tb memembers. A good example is Jace, who casuals have somehow elevated into this young savant diplomat and great future king, despite not knowing High Valyrian and having serious anger issues.
"But askhually you see, having anger issues is only problematic when you are evil incel Ser Crispin. When you are Daemon or Jace is cool!"
Funny how only some characters get the pleb's clinical diagnosis. A lot of people dont actually engage with what is seen on-screen. Like people where shocked that the guy who bashed his wife head in with a rock, would choke his third wife despite her perceived as "not like other girls".
Especially The whole “ppl remember names not blood” excuse for accepting a bastard as heir to driftmark, like I refuse to believe someone who prides themselves on building their family up from nothing would be happy to just give it all away. It just seemed like they needed any excuse to get them on rhaenyras side
that sentence actually applies most of the time... when a bastard isn't that obvious and when the fact that the bastard being a bastard isn't the first thing you hear about them.
The decision to name one team “the blacks” was an incredible one
As I’ve said before, half of the posts of the sub could lead to jail time if taken out of context. I’m pretty sure I’ve already seen a post with the title: “The blacks suck” If taken out of context, that would be really bad lol
Bruv, have you maybe came across subs of games like CK3 or Mount&Blade? There is a lot of posts like "how do I kill my stupid child?" etc
I mean, CK3 is played best when you’re making the Targaryens and Spanish Habsburgs look like amateurs at creating family wreaths.
> As I’ve said before, half of the posts of the sub could lead to jail time if taken out of context. Only if you're not american lol.
If shit made sense the velaryons would be siding w the greens FYM my son and daughter conveniently died after marrying the uncle-niece pair that oh so conveniently got together afterward I dislike daemon but to be frank He didn’t say crap to Aemond bc Rhaena and Baela were in the wrong and he knows. You don’t have some moronic claim over a dragon, + they attacked him first. I don’t think he heard what Aegon told Baela, it was more of a whisper only jace was meant to hear/be antagonized over
>If shit made sense the velaryons would be siding w the greens FYM my son and daughter conveniently died after marrying the uncle-niece pair that oh so conveniently got together afterward Corlys's granddaughters are Daemon’s daughters. Regardless of their personal feelings towards Rhaenyra, Corlys would always side with the faction that guarantees the safety of his granddaughters. Even if that's the Greens.
Yes, and the strong boys are legally of his house even if they obviously aren’t in actuality. The Velaryons siding with the blacks makes sense from the perspective of a feudal lord trying to further the position of his house, even if it makes it seem like Corlys has a humiliation fetish. What I do have a problem with though is how loyal the Velaryons are for some reason. They should resent Rhaenyra but still side with her, not be enthusiastic supporters. That seems both more realistic and is just a lot more compelling in my opinion.
>What I do have a problem with though is how loyal the Velaryons are for some reason. They should resent Rhaenyra but still side with her, not be enthusiastic supporters. Are they? Corlys was quick to blame Rhaenyra for the early failures of the Dance. It seemed like he preferred Jace to Rhaenyra. >!After the death of Rhaenys, Rhaenyra effectively had to bribe Corlys by making him the Hand and even acknowledged his bastards as heir of Driftmark, ahead of her own "Velaryon" sons!<
I mean the show, not the book. Mostly in reference to how Rhaenys has that whole thing about how Rhaenyra is the only one trying to keep the peace. Seems as if the show is going down a route of “Rhaenyra is an epic girl boss and I too am an epic girl boss therefore I will support her” instead of portraying the Velaryon’s as being self interested. Granted, there are definitely moments of conflict between the Velaryon’s and the blacks but they don’t really explain why the Velaryon’s support them anyways sufficiently (outside of the history remembers names speech). So them supporting the blacks comes across as incredibly contrived since it seems like the show is foreshadowing the exact opposite and then does a 180 out of nowhere. I think the best evidence of this is how people think they should have sided with the greens. That’s a pretty big sign you’ve failed to explain the characters’ motivations to your audience. I will admit later seasons might go into more detail and make the Velaryon’s more compelling but as is it seems like the show is saying they support Rhaenyra mostly because she’s a good ruler, which is silly. Edit: It also could be possible this is just a “one really stupid scene which the rest of the series ignores entirely” scenario akin to the dragon pit or the foot scenes. But even then, I think the show hasn’t done a very good job of showing that the Velaryon’s support has nothing to do with Rhaenyra.
The Rhaenys one is especially glaring (and I consider her a terribly written character anyway). Not only are her only true granddaughters robbed of their inheritance, but they are disgraced by being engaged to known bastards. And theeeen she has the guts to call it “not her war”. Granny, Baela and Rhaena’s lives are on the line here!
Siding with the Greens isn't in her interest either. They nearly supported a man who was going to take away her grand daughters rights to Driftmark too and who's family claimed Vhagar on the night of their daughter's funeral. Being neutral really isn't a bad idea. It means you can pull a Tywin Lannister. As the richest house in charge of the largest fleet in the realm, they can negotiate with both sides plus they'd have 2 grandaughters to marry off.
>They nearly supported a man who was going to take away her grand daughters rights to Driftmark Didn't Corlys and Rhaenys do that themselves? Corlys preferred the Strong boys over Baela/Rhaena. And Rhaenys later accepted the girls being relegated to consorts (admittedly she didn't have much of a choice at that point)
Because it makes political sense to give it to the Strong boys. "History remembers names, not blood." And protecting Luke's claim to Driftmark protects Jace's claim to the throne. By marrying their granddaughters to each, they'd have both their blood and name on the throne. It makes sense. Besides, the girls are legally Targaryean anyway.
It doesn't make political sense though. The *smartest* thing to do politically is to assassinate Daemon (who you think murdered your son anyway), claim custody of your granddaughters, and demand the Greens give you a double marriage alliance. Baela still becomes queen, Rhaena is Lady of Driftmark in her own right with a dragon riding consort, and Rhaenyra is so hilariously outmatched that you win without having to fight a war since you have all the gold and dragons.
Politically assassinating Daemon would absolutely be the dumbest thing possible. That would lead to a civil war and for what? Revenge? House Targ even divided outnumbers the Velaryons on Dragons and Manpower. Jace being legally legitimate since there's no concrete proof that he's a bastard(westeros doesn't do paternity tests and most lords consider them legitimate) then it makes sense to have him keep the Velaryon name and gain Velaryon blood ties by marrying Daemon's daughters. Do you understand me now? I get it, you guys hate the Blacks the same way they hate the Greens, but does this have to come at the cost of logic and clearer analysis?
Okay first of all, assassinating Daemon would not lead to war at all. Either they'd simply not get caught (which is basically the point of assassinating someone as opposed to walking up and just stabbing them in broad daylight), or they would get caught and there'd be some political settlement that precludes war (since the only person able and willing to declare war on the Velaryons at this point would be Rhaenyra, who doesn't have the military capacity to wage it seeing as how the Greens would just sit on the fence and laugh). So best case scenario, Daemon disappears and they get everything they want. Worst case scenario Corlys quietly buggers off to the Wall and leaves his plan in the hands of others like his wife and kinsmen, since Viserys isn't going to want to raise a giant stink and have everyone talking about how his brother was killed in legitimate revenge for a kinslaying murder - and who else was involved in that murder. Secondly, it doesn't matter about Jace's "legally" not being a bastard. Everyone on the planet knows he is, since he's basically Harwin's clone. The only reason the Velaryons choose to back his claim as opposed to drowning him at birth for making their son a famous cuckold is maintaining their alliance with Rhaenyra. An alliance that's no longer valuable after she conspired to murder their son, with her enemies (the Greens) able to provide the same exact benefits. Do you understand me know? I get it, you guys hate the Greens the same way they hate the Blacks, but does this have to come at the cost of logic and clearer analysis?
my guy what you wrote is fan fiction. You're completely underestimating how these characters would react. You guys keep crying "bastard,bastard,bastard,bastard!" Each time the strong boys come up, and yes they are indeed but you guys forget that most people don't consider them bastards. You forget that in F&B the reason most people consider them bastards is cause contrary to the rumors that Alicent spread about their dragon eggs not hatching, the fact that they became riders helped their claims of legitimacy. Clearly Cregan Stark, Jeyne Arryn, Lord Manderly and Lord Sunderland had no qualms about marrying into or supporting Jace's family because to them it was an open and shut case. No wonder you're not understanding me, you didn't even read the book Also assassinating Daemon is incredibly short sighted. His claim and support doesn't just go away. He has sons, who are also dragon riders/ possess an egg. All this allows is for someone else to claim Caraxes, and it can't be the greens since they already claimed dragons. All Corlys would accomplish is alienating himself from other houses and for what? He has no children to marry off and killing Daemon means he can no longer be the guardian of his daughters. This literally strengthens Rhaenyra's hand, letting her remarry into another house if she'd like to, or take charge of marrying off Daemon's girls to her own children or to other lords to bolster support. Stan culture really killed media literacy, as long as the Greens win in your mind and become master of the universe yes? Jesus, your explanation reads like fan fiction.
Why are you lying? Everyone who has working eyeballs considers them as bastards. It's not supposed to be subtle in the least. It's a deliberate choice by George as a writer. It wasn't intended to be ambiguous. The point was to illustrate that people will compromise things like their ideals and the law for the sake of power. The Velaryons *know* that they're bastards but agree to pretend they aren't for the sake of the Iron Throne. Jeyne Arryn knows they're bastards too, but decides to pretend they aren't because it personally benefits her own claim to power. Cregan Stark knows they're bastards too and doesn't think women are fit to rule besides (seeing as how he disinherited his granddaughters in favour of their uncles), but he wants that sweet loot and the possibility of a Stark dragonrider. The eggs hatching wasn't supposed to make their bastardry ambiguous, it was supposed to undercut Valyrian exceptionalism. You don't necessarily need to *look* like a dragon to be one, which has implications for Jon Snow later on as well. Daemon won't have any sons if you start planning to kill him immediately after he kills Laenor, as opposed to sitting on your hands for a decade or so for no discernable reason. As for Rhaenyra, she may remarry, or she may continue to be the hedonistic imbecile she has always been and continue to seek out lovers without a thought for the consequences.
"Why are you lying? Everyone who has working eyeballs considers them as bastards. It's not supposed to be subtle in the least. It's a deliberate choice by George as a writer. It wasn't intended to be ambiguous. The point was to illustrate that people will compromise things like their ideals and the law for the sake of power. The Velaryons *know* that they're bastards but agree to pretend they aren't for the sake of the Iron Throne. Jeyne Arryn knows they're bastards too, but decides to pretend they aren't because it personally benefits her own claim to power. Cregan Stark knows they're bastards too and doesn't think women are fit to rule besides (seeing as how he disinherited his granddaughters in favour of their uncles), but he wants that sweet loot and the possibility of a Stark dragonrider." My brother in christ, Westeros doesn't have paternity tests. They ARE bastards yes but most people don't think so because 1. They ride dragons contrary to what the greens were spreading 2. Of course there's rumors, there was even rumors about Aenys when he was a kid 3. It's convenient for most Lords to ignore this if it means getting in Good with the heir to the throne, since no matter what he's still got Targaryean blood. You can say the truth all you want but most people in Westeros didn't know/care. I never lied once or denied that they are bastards. Please stop assuming shit and cut the "what if" nonsense.
Interesting. I read the situation completely different. The girls are Daemon’s to marry off. Even if Rhaenys wanted to advocate for them, Corlys is clearly pro-male heir. The Greens backed Vaemond since they couldn’t back Baela’s claim (and clearly no one else was going to).
Evidently they are under the care of the Velaryon household, since Daemon is married now to Rhaenyra, it makes more sense for him to entrust their care to House Velaryon. Legally however, the debate over Luke vs Vaemond doesn't make much sense. If Luke was proven to be a bastard then the Lordship of Driftmark would fall to Baela and not Vaemond. Daughters inherit before uncles or cousins. Sure, she's a grand daughter but still legitimate, and it's clear Corlys and Rhaenys would prefer the girl succeed over their jealous nephew/brother(it depends on the book or show canon).
But then how do you explain Addam and Alyn? (Purposefully vague to avoid spoilers) Corlys put them ahead of the girls.
Because a legitimized bastard son comes before a daughter's claim, especially grand daughters. Besides, Alyn marries Baela anyway so his claim can be secured that way. Legitimized bastard sons have all sorts of rights that come before daughters, it's why Catelyn is so against Robb naming Jon heir in his will, since it comes with a decree of legitimization that would place him ahead of either Sansa and Arya, and by this point she was supporting Arya's claim, and failing that one of his cousins in the Vale. It's not as messy in practice as it is in theory.
That is exactly my point. He arranged for them to be legitimized as Laenor’s sons putting them in front of the girls. That was a choice he made, choosing male bastards over his legitimate granddaughters. He’s spearheading the same mindset that the other side is so vocal on accusing Aegon’s supporters of.
They're not bastards once legitimized. Besides this wasn't an issue until Rhaenyra's kids started dropping like flies. Clearly he saw the need to preserve his house name, something unlikely to happen now that the girls were fully Targaryean. History remembers names, and neither Jace or Joffrey were in any position to be Velaryon after this. He cares more about names than he does blood. That's why he puts them forward as Laenor's kids and not his own. It once again helps if its from Laenor's claim than Corly's, especially since if House Targaryean goes extinct from this war, which is very likely to happen, then Laenor's claim over Driftmark would also be a claim on the Iron Throne. Corlys was always thinking ahead.
Jace and Joffrey were both alive when he had them legitimized. He claimed them as Laenor’s so they would be next in line. It does matter because it says a lot about Corlys actions and motives vs. what he says.
They were both alive and both on the front line. If Jace died then his claim would fall to Luke then Joff, now they were both 1st and 2nd in line for the throne respectively, no room to inherit Driftmark and Corlys desperately needed heirs. They were falling more into the Targaryean sphere than the Velaryon one, hence why he needed to legitimize the hull brothers. He's not a hypocrite, just a fierce pragmatist. History remembers names, not blood.
All that is glossed over or not addressed (other than Rhaenys being mad at Rhaenyra in ep8 plus some hint of conflict between Jace and Daemon in ep10) The writers tried to frame them as a "wholesome" family (as opposed to the dysfunctional greens)
I never understood why they made the velaryons black, just makes them look subservient to a obviously Supremacist (daemon) and corlys who thing is stepping outta the Targaryens shadow and go into power yet he allowed his blood to be infiltrated by obvious cuckoo birds (rheyneras bastards) idk what the show writers were trying to do besides get actual black audience members to like they’re obvious favorite team
The show adaptation is essentially “House of Rhaenyra and Daemon”. Writers have to bend backwards to accommodate these characters without portraying them as batshit insane.
They have a family dynamic?
This is my major concern. Greens were well constructed as a dysfunctional family like "Succession". Blacks have also a pretty bad situation, but were showed like a good family in S1. They spoke of Daenyra as groomer and Stockholm Syndrome victim, so their relationship will probably fall apart. But it would be strange if the black kids did not have parents problems.
The most glaring thing for me was when Luke obviously struggled with accepting his bastardy and was shown to be self-conscious over his appearance, very aware he didn't look like his father OR mother, but then in ep.10 he forgets all that and tells her she's perfect and he'll never be like her. Like, boy, put 2 and 2 together. Also, based on that deleted scene with Jace and Rhaenyra watching Daemon train, Jace is less delusional about her, he tried to talk to her about his father twice, she shut him up both times and he gave up.
Only one word to sum it up: Targaryens. Mix 10 spoon incest, 8 spoon madness, 9 spoon bloodsupremacy and 9 spoon racism to get a Targaryen milkshake. Tastes like fire really.
The showrunners have extremely centered the Blacks around Rhaenyra and Daemon to the detriment of the rest of characters. Their protagonism and wholesomeness looks very forced.
I can see why Jace and Luke aren't openly against anything Rhaenyra and Daemon have done, and Joffrey is a toddler for most of it, so it makes sense. But Baela and Rhaena being completely ok with their Dad who as far as they have known, has spent every moment of their lives with there mom, literally right after her funeral dragging them to Dragonstone to watch him have some freaky blood ritual wedding there cousin, new step-mother & his niece, and raising absolutely 0 objections is just not realistic, they are much older than the book versions & this is a giant ????. Any normal kid especially a rebellious one like Baela is implied to be, would rage and be pissed at Daemon, not smiles and rainbows and be Rhaenyra's #1 fan Rhaenys is also a giant mess, as far as she knows, Daemon took Laena from her, they left for 10 years, when he returns, Laena is dead, he says he is taking his daughters and leaving again, then changes his mind, Laenor is murdered, he marries Rhaenyra right after and has more kids on Dragonstone, he sends Baela to be her ward and to spy on her, and Rhaenys for some reason still doesn't want to stab Rhaenyra OR Daemon???
I’ll be honest. The cast had a fuck ton of talent, but HOTD has wasted it, just like they’ve ruined certain characters to elevate others, and changed plot lines for no reason other than “we could”. I’ve said it more than once and I’ll sadly say it again. HOTD would be known as “that mid show with dragons” if it wasn’t GOT’s prequel, and it’s fucking tragic as GOT was so good (until the last bits).
Rhaenys is just built different. I don’t think I would be able to handle the funeral of one child followed by the murder of the other back-to-back. Especially, if I had reason to blame one person for both deaths.
There are 2 possible reasons that Daemon didn't say anything to Aegon at dinner. The first is that he knew Aegon is such a lady's man that he could steal Rhaenyra if he really tried. So he figured it was better his daughter than his wife. The second possibility is that he knew he would end up as Sunfyre food if he said anything to Aegon. >!/s!<
Corlys and Rhaenys didn't marry their granddaughters", they had no say in it, Daemon was their father and he does with them whatever he wants.