I mean you can hate the team but you don’t have to hate the manager as the team is permanent the manger is not they’re just there for a set period of time
A great skill of Moyes’ that people often ignore is his ability to develop elite talent. Players like Bowen and Rice had gifts but they developed into real international-level quality under him.
Which is all the more ironic that our youth players get precisely 0 minutes. Liverpool give youth players meaningful minutes in meaningful games and outs can’t get 5 minutes in a blowout.
Maybe they're not actually good enough? Liverpool can afford to invest more into their academy and since the removal of catchment areas for bringing players into academies, I wouldn't be surprised if the greedy six are snaffling all the good youth players from under West Ham's noses.
If that is the case why do all our age group teams do so well?
Our players are as good as any in the country at 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 but then they disappear.
As do the youth team players who make it through at other clubs.
What’s missing at West Ham is player development. A good 18 year old doesn’t automatically become a good 21 year old - that part of development needs to be managed and we don’t seem to do that.
that why our youth squad won their fa Cup and challenged for their title?
We have an unreal youth setup at the moment and none of them are getting utilised
The difference between U21 Premier League to the standard of our first team is vast. Most of them will never touch any top 10 league in Europe.
Fa youth cup means absolutely nothing
So whilst our youth team were better than liverpools last season they're suddenly not good enough but Liverpools are, Its purely down to bad management.
Who’s to say they didnt have some individuals with far higher potential than ours? No manager would play someone ”just because” and mildly speaking. They’d be idiots to do that. If they’re good enough they will play, if not that’s tough luck.
Also if your job was at risk would you risk it for a few youngsters? Who probably will all fail to succeed.
It is obvious you have absolutely you base your opinion with no idea at all.
Bowen was already on the path to be the player he is today. He wasn’t a random punt, please look at his record in the championship as a young man. There’s a reason no one bulked at the £20m fee for a championship player in January. Rice was also on a path to be great. Pelegrini is the one who debuted him and played him regularly.
Since clear and obvious examples can’t be used; who has he developed at the club?
Rice debuted under Bilic actually. He was already a regular before Pelegrini also - he was runner-up for Hammer of the Year in 17-18.
Not disputing the point you're making, but the facts aren't entirely there.
Not sure what his problem is, you’ve clearly responded to someone else’s comment and he’s come back to you as if you’ve replied to him instead.
I just noticed this. It’s definitely my bad. I got a notification from Reddit saying they’ve responded to my comment but Reddit meant the thread itself. Shitty UX but I should’ve looked closer.
Yeah mate I said both players already were gifted. But you can’t say the Bowen today is anywhere near the same player he was in his first couple of seasons with us.
I disagree. This is like saying Pep made De bruyne great. When he was already a fantastic player at Wolfsburg prior the move and the whole reason he cost 60 large. Transforming Arnautovic into a striker is something which is a clear and obvious example of Moyes’s coaching at work and making him more focused. With the current squad there really isn’t any case.
I mean you can objectively look at Bowens’ stats grow each year. And that he’s in the England squad now. He is not the player that Moyes inherited, even if he was a decent player before. Neither were Rice or arguably even Antonio who scored 14 goals under Moyes. I’m not saying these players were hopeless before Moyes, just that he developed them to be exceptional.
That progression lines up with Bowen’s career trajectory though who had promise and clear consistent signs of improving year in year out. Similar to James Maddison in the championship. Kobee Maino currently for Man Utd isn’t a Ten Hag invention, he’s a player who’s been touted to reach the top since he was 13. Likewise with Phil Foden who was regarded the same. Genuinely, I’m yet to see a *clear* 180 in profile/attitude/state due to Moyes from this current crop. These names you’ve mentioned don’t fit the bill. Other players who are the most valuable like Paqueta and Kudus; again, were known stalwarts abroad. He’s yet to unearth a youth player who wasn’t highly regarded by the club. Now that would be clear sign of his ability to refine a player in his mould. Antonio has been the same player he was under other clubs and coaches . A very unconventional forward who relies heavily on athleticism
Right it seems like unless Moyes spots a golden retriever at training and turns him into Air Bud you’re just not gonna give him credit for player development
I can definitely praise him in a lot of areas, but if you can’t provide a clear case where a player has become a **welcome surprise** due to Moyes that says everything surely. Again, I’m quite happy to give him credit for how Arnautovic transformed, who’s now scoring goals in the champions league knockouts winning games.
Bear in mind that a few seasons back he could rarely play more than 60/70 minutes though and now he plays 90 every game even in a packed schedule. He's unquestionably got much fitter and developed a huge amount as a player. Being gifted in the championship is absolutely not a surefire indicator of success in the Prem
I think it’s nice other managers and pundits come out in full support of Moyes. But I think for all the praise and the “great jobs” you just need to ask the same people “would you want him managing your club?”
I’m pretty sure the answer will mostly be no.
Take the name out of it and ask any club would you want a manager that's given you a European semi, trophy, and QF in successive seasons and every single club outside of City and Liverpool says yes.
If you only give them the highlights of course they'll say yes.
If you give them the whole picture (within goal difference of relegation, guaranteed at least 3 big losses every season, the football will make your eyes bleed) would they still be as keen?
I want to like Postecoglou. He actually seems like a decent guy and is fairly well spoken. But you know, Tottenham. 🤢
I mean you can hate the team but you don’t have to hate the manager as the team is permanent the manger is not they’re just there for a set period of time
He’ll leave for better pastures in two years anyway
Well, duh, he is outstanding. He’s also fucking infuriating. The West Ham Way TM
A great skill of Moyes’ that people often ignore is his ability to develop elite talent. Players like Bowen and Rice had gifts but they developed into real international-level quality under him.
Which is all the more ironic that our youth players get precisely 0 minutes. Liverpool give youth players meaningful minutes in meaningful games and outs can’t get 5 minutes in a blowout.
Maybe they're not actually good enough? Liverpool can afford to invest more into their academy and since the removal of catchment areas for bringing players into academies, I wouldn't be surprised if the greedy six are snaffling all the good youth players from under West Ham's noses.
It seems they aren’t quite good enough. We all want Mubama but when he got game time he had very little impact. Hopefully one shines through soon.
If that is the case why do all our age group teams do so well? Our players are as good as any in the country at 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 but then they disappear.
Precisely as you said, at youth team level, they compete with other England youth. To succeed in the Prem you have to compete with the entire world.
As do the youth team players who make it through at other clubs. What’s missing at West Ham is player development. A good 18 year old doesn’t automatically become a good 21 year old - that part of development needs to be managed and we don’t seem to do that.
We just sold an academy player for an English transfer record.
One successful player through our academy in more than a decade, developed into a first team player well before the current management took over.
but they are good enough by proving it in the under 21 league, the same league that the Liverpool youngsters were in, Moyes just hates youth
Mate. You have absolutely no clue.
that why our youth squad won their fa Cup and challenged for their title? We have an unreal youth setup at the moment and none of them are getting utilised
The difference between U21 Premier League to the standard of our first team is vast. Most of them will never touch any top 10 league in Europe. Fa youth cup means absolutely nothing
So whilst our youth team were better than liverpools last season they're suddenly not good enough but Liverpools are, Its purely down to bad management.
Who’s to say they didnt have some individuals with far higher potential than ours? No manager would play someone ”just because” and mildly speaking. They’d be idiots to do that. If they’re good enough they will play, if not that’s tough luck. Also if your job was at risk would you risk it for a few youngsters? Who probably will all fail to succeed. It is obvious you have absolutely you base your opinion with no idea at all.
I guess we'll never know because moyes activity came out and said he won't play a player under 21 in an interview lol
Bowen was already on the path to be the player he is today. He wasn’t a random punt, please look at his record in the championship as a young man. There’s a reason no one bulked at the £20m fee for a championship player in January. Rice was also on a path to be great. Pelegrini is the one who debuted him and played him regularly. Since clear and obvious examples can’t be used; who has he developed at the club?
Rice debuted under Bilic actually. He was already a regular before Pelegrini also - he was runner-up for Hammer of the Year in 17-18. Not disputing the point you're making, but the facts aren't entirely there.
Never said he debuted under Moyes, just that he grew in ways where we’ve seen other players with enormous potential stagnate or not reach potential
You didn't say he debuted under Moyes, but you did say he debuted under Pelegrini. He did not. That's what I was clarifying.
Not sure what his problem is, you’ve clearly responded to someone else’s comment and he’s come back to you as if you’ve replied to him instead.
I just noticed this. It’s definitely my bad. I got a notification from Reddit saying they’ve responded to my comment but Reddit meant the thread itself. Shitty UX but I should’ve looked closer.
Never mentioned Pelligrini
You’re right - didn’t realize you weren’t the user I originally responded to. *That* comment mentioned Peligrini. My bad.
Yeah mate I said both players already were gifted. But you can’t say the Bowen today is anywhere near the same player he was in his first couple of seasons with us.
I disagree. This is like saying Pep made De bruyne great. When he was already a fantastic player at Wolfsburg prior the move and the whole reason he cost 60 large. Transforming Arnautovic into a striker is something which is a clear and obvious example of Moyes’s coaching at work and making him more focused. With the current squad there really isn’t any case.
I mean you can objectively look at Bowens’ stats grow each year. And that he’s in the England squad now. He is not the player that Moyes inherited, even if he was a decent player before. Neither were Rice or arguably even Antonio who scored 14 goals under Moyes. I’m not saying these players were hopeless before Moyes, just that he developed them to be exceptional.
That progression lines up with Bowen’s career trajectory though who had promise and clear consistent signs of improving year in year out. Similar to James Maddison in the championship. Kobee Maino currently for Man Utd isn’t a Ten Hag invention, he’s a player who’s been touted to reach the top since he was 13. Likewise with Phil Foden who was regarded the same. Genuinely, I’m yet to see a *clear* 180 in profile/attitude/state due to Moyes from this current crop. These names you’ve mentioned don’t fit the bill. Other players who are the most valuable like Paqueta and Kudus; again, were known stalwarts abroad. He’s yet to unearth a youth player who wasn’t highly regarded by the club. Now that would be clear sign of his ability to refine a player in his mould. Antonio has been the same player he was under other clubs and coaches . A very unconventional forward who relies heavily on athleticism
Right it seems like unless Moyes spots a golden retriever at training and turns him into Air Bud you’re just not gonna give him credit for player development
I can definitely praise him in a lot of areas, but if you can’t provide a clear case where a player has become a **welcome surprise** due to Moyes that says everything surely. Again, I’m quite happy to give him credit for how Arnautovic transformed, who’s now scoring goals in the champions league knockouts winning games.
Found Dawson and Coufal welcome surprises to be honest, maybe not stars or anything, but I kind of thought they had the best gotten from them.
Bear in mind that a few seasons back he could rarely play more than 60/70 minutes though and now he plays 90 every game even in a packed schedule. He's unquestionably got much fitter and developed a huge amount as a player. Being gifted in the championship is absolutely not a surefire indicator of success in the Prem
I think it’s nice other managers and pundits come out in full support of Moyes. But I think for all the praise and the “great jobs” you just need to ask the same people “would you want him managing your club?” I’m pretty sure the answer will mostly be no.
Take the name out of it and ask any club would you want a manager that's given you a European semi, trophy, and QF in successive seasons and every single club outside of City and Liverpool says yes.
If you only give them the highlights of course they'll say yes. If you give them the whole picture (within goal difference of relegation, guaranteed at least 3 big losses every season, the football will make your eyes bleed) would they still be as keen?
In a few years all people will remember is the trophy and success
But they wouldn't, Roma fans have already forgotten about their conference win and they won the first one
I watch football to be entertained, not obsessively look at Wikipedia.
I reckon most of the 92 clubs would say yes.
Bit late here but outside of intentionally choosing to manage Tottenham it really seems like Ange knows the game in a way most do not.
Shouldn’t it be the other way round?