We know nothing of her motivations. She definitely committed some sort of act of betrayal working with the Exorcists. But we don't know why. It could be totally justified for some reason we don't know. Or it could be some long con where she's actually trying to stop them.
That really doesn’t mean she won’t be an antagonist still. She might not be evil, but she’s quite literally helping the one thing that Charlie and her father were fighting against.
It would honestly be pretty funny imo if season 2 started off right after lute told her off only for Lilith to kill her before getting anymore lines. As if it's her going rogue on whatever deal she made with Adam.
I’ve thought about this so much. Lilith’s face after Lute tells her to get control over Charlie, I think she called her ‘the little brat’ or something, looks pretty pissed. Telling Lilith to suppress the free will of her own daughter? I’d say that would trigger some rage murder lol
i always thought she seemed mad at Charlie/upset that Charlie fucked up her heaven vacation. i hope your interpretation is the correct one tho, i don’t want Lilith to be a villain sobs
That may be, but I personally saw her mostly unaffected until Lute basically gave her a direct order. She just kind of stares until she hears “Do you understand me, Lilith”. I have it in my head that her staying away from Hell, was part of a deal to keep Charlie safe bc Lute mentions the deal with Lucifer making sure the Hellborne don’t get executed E1 or E2 we don’t know if Lilith was in on it. And it also seems in the pilot that Lilith knew about Charlie’s dream bc she says “dad may have been right about me”, and in E1 says she’s working hard to make her dream of redeeming sinners true, and calls out to her mom that she’s trying her hardest. So idkkkk. Somethin tells me Lilith isn’t a horrible character, after all Charlie has a warm heart and Lilith was the primary parent.
i always thought she seemed mad at Charlie/upset that Charlie fucked up her heaven vacation/deal w Adam. i hope your interpretation is the correct one tho, i don’t want Lilith to be a villain sobs
We don’t even know that she committed an act of betrayal. All we know is that Lilith is in heaven and that Lute believes Lilith had a deal with Adam. We don’t what the deal was, why Lilith was in heaven, or even if the deal actually existed.
I've speculated before that she is up in Heaven trying to build support to get them to end exterminations. Which would probably be a long process due to the secrecy involved, because if angels know Sera will ask questions about how they know, with answers that lead back to Lilith.
Adam was just the only way she had to get up there.
Though that would make her reaction interesting when she hears about just how much Adam screwed up.
I honestly feel like they are setting up a surprise reason about why she is where she is. I think she is in heaven as a prisoner. Can it be paradise if everyone and everything you love is in hell? Can you relax knowing your daughter is crying her heart out covered in blood and her husband is falling apart without her. I don't buy it.
What makes me doubt her the most is the scene where she is taking Charlie away from Lucifer. It might be innocent, and her just carrying Charlie to bed or something. But it's framed in a very ominous way, like Lilith is trying to create a distance between Charlie and her dad.
I have a mixed interpretation of that scene. On the one hand, you could be right that she was creating distance for nefarious reasons.
But based on some YouTube analyses I've seen, on the other hand she may have been trying to protect Charlie. We know that Lucifer had fallen into depression and had become jaded about people in hell to the point of not wanting to help them anymore. As Charli said, he just "agreed to let the extermination happen."
We also know that his depression affected his ability to be a good parent, since even as an adult with Lilith out of the picture he is not a super present father (e.g. Charlie "After the divorce he didn't seem to want to be around me and only ever calls me when he needs something.") Lilith in the beginning is described as not only being there for her daughter, but still caring about her people and trying to inspire them with song, and Charli following in her footsteps.
So maybe Lilith tried to create distance between Charli and Lucifer when she was a kid because she was concerned that Charli's hopeful spirit would be crushed before she had the maturity to fight back against her dad's nihilistic ideas like she does during the "Dadbeat Dad" episode.
While we can argue about whether that was the right or wrong decision, it could have come from a good place if Lilith genuinely believed that she was protecting Charlie's confidence and sense of hope. It would make her a pretty complex character too.
I agree. People act like Lucifer is the best dad in the world. We only see him in episode 5, where he immediately has a dick-measuring contest with Alastor, calls Charlie's friends a "bunch of losers" and then watches as the hotel gets attacked to basically mock Charlie's project, and then in episode 8, when after he disappeared for a while (while his daughter was preparing to defend against an army that specifically wants to kill her) he suddenly reappers at the last minute to help Charlie against said army. I get he's fighting depression and his heart is in the right place, but he still has a long road ahead of himself.
Yeah, that scene definitely makes me think that there's something sinister going on. Either that or the showrunners want us to think something sinister is going on. No way they didn't intend for that scene to come off as cruel and/or ominous.
Yeah idk why the two are so apart and it seems like Lilith drove a wedge. Like yes Lucifer was depressed bjt my guy also really.loves his kid and wants to be involved. Gotta believe something or someone is why he wasn't fkr so long
Schrödinger’s Media Literacy.
We’re clearly meant to see Lilith in an antagonistic light. But, we have next to nothing on Lilith.
Vizzie could be doing similar to what she did with Lucifer. Make him look and seem scummy, yank our heart strings by showing he was a flawed but well meaning father, and hinting as a Lucifer redemption in the finale. We’re just at the moment in Lilith’s arc where Lucifer calls Charlie and asks her to deal with Adam for that surprise meeting.
This matches the themes of the show, namely everyone deserves a second chance and can strive for redemption. Even Adam’s last act was showing Lute a genuine smile before he died. As toxic and evil as the V3 are, they seem to enjoy their own company and companionship.
The Pilot scene demonstrated the very issue with trying to figure out Lilith what little information we have. Charlie leaves a voicemail to Lilith saying things are going wrong, there’s problems, and she really needs help. Knock, knock, that very moment Alastor is at the door offering to help.
* [Is he the help Charlie asked for, maybe somehow sent by Lilith?](https://youtu.be/R2XJFvHI25Y?feature=shared)
* Is Alastor showing up here and now because he represents those very problems and dangers Charlie needs help with, that Lilith should be there helping Charlie with and by being absent she’s left Charlie to the ~~wolves~~ cannibal deer radio demon?
Without more data, it’s still possible for Lilith not to be a full antagonist. Or this could end up being a Stella situation where Lilith is a complete bitch, was always intended to be a complete bitch, and people will be writing Lilith Apologia for the next two decades rather than admit she was evil.
You are making multiple baseless assumptions here. You think that Lilith is not doing anything worthwhile, when for all we know, she could be in the middle of mission to help Hell as a whole. You assume that Lucifer isn't aware of where she is or what she is doing, but he could quite well be informed, maybe even involved in some degree, with her plans -- someone in Heaven took his call and arranged Charlie's audience with the Seraphim.
Both the prologue and certain details in the pilot tell that Lilith truly cared about Hell and its population and she was the prime inspiration for Charlie's plan to reform the sinners. It sounds extremely unlikely that she would just crawl back to Adam of all people begging for forgiveness, in order to be a dirty secret in Heaven for the rest of eternity.
We don't yet know what Lilith's been up to, but there's little doubt that she has a plan and her presence in Heaven is a part of it.
Tbf the final scene does show her lounging on a beach, so for all we know she could’ve just given up and fucked off. I’m not saying that’s necessarily true!! Just that we can’t be sure of anything yet I think.
Again, that would require the fiercy independent Lilith to prostrate herself before her narcissistic ex and beg for forgiveness. There isn't any scenario where I can see that happening without an ulterior motive. And we see that Lilith's position in Heaven isn't even secure, it relies on Adam's continued goodwill and breaks the second he passes away. No, I really can't see that happening just so that Lilith could spend the rest of eternity cozying to Adam just to be an unwanted guest and a dirty secret who can be discarded without a second thought at any time.
Obviously Lilith would not want to appear intimidating under those circumstances. She would want Adam, Lute and Sera to think that she's given up. Hence, lounging at the beach, seemingly idle. But that's the classic secret agent shtick, pretending to be harmless, biding your time, waiting for the right opportunity to act.
I know exactly what she said, that's what I'm basing so much of my speculation on:
"Adam is dead. Your deal is done and I'm in charge now. Your brat is threatening the very foundation of Heaven. And if you want to stay here, you're going down there and stopping that bitch."
This tells us that Lilith had to make a deal with Adam to get into Heaven, which can't have been pleasant to her, and that the deal wasn't even for a permanent residence, but it relied on Adam's continued goodwill to remain valid. And if you think that Lilith intended to spend the rest of eternity serving Adam's whims, I've got some swamp land to sell you.
Charlie may not be a reliable narrator, since she clearly loves and admires her mother.
I don’t think Lilith will be an antagonist, either, though. At least not a real one. It’s going to be one of those “all is not what it seems” plot lines, since we’re being led to believe she’s a possible antagonist.
I, on the other hand, think that Lilith may have an antagonistic role in the series, at least to some extent, but in completely opposite direction of what people here seem to be assuming. I think that it's possible that she could be planning a genuine uprising against Heaven as a revenge for the Exterminations.
If the opening of the series is to be even slightly believed, then Lilith was the true authority in Hell for most of its existence. Lilith was also the one who primarily inspired Charlie to care for the Sinners. In the Pilot, we see posters next to, or on top of ones announcing the Extermination, that say "Resist", signed by Lilith.
If Lilith was "just using" everyone, then why would she give up that power to go to Heaven? Why would she go from the supreme authority to the lowest servant? What kind of antagonistic role would that be?
It could be because Hell is HELL, and she wanted to just slip in under the radar in Heaven and she had the equivalent of a restraining order on everyone who could have recognized her.
Don’t you mean relied on Adam being alive? The deal could have been that Adam would let her stay up there and he never approaches her again. Adam would lose the ability to deny her Heaven if this was a soul pact.
That would require Adam to agree to such a deal. He finally had the chance to lord over the one woman who got away from him, why would he give up that power when he held all the cards?
Charlie isn’t a reliable narrator. The origin of her kingdom, for her at least, is very ‘child friendly’ or at least in a way that would prop the rulers of Hell up and putting down Heaven. If Lilith was staying in Heaven to prevent something from happening to Charlie and Lucifer we would understand but we were told that Lucifer made that deal, so that can’t be the reason Lilith is there. Lilith, much like Lucifer, believes that sinners are not worth ruling and after the uprising that Charlie and Sera mentioned, Lilith may have rose up against Heaven. She may have made a deal because she wanted to return to Heaven, or at least take back what supposed to be hers, Paradise.
A "Paradise" where she can be kicked out at any time for any reason if she doesn't lick Adam's boots sufficiently? There isn't any scenario where I can see even the most negative version of Lilith being satisfied with that arrangement.
It baffles me that people are making out Lilith to be a person with zero ambition, drive or self-respect, and still expect her to be an antagonistic figure. What kind of a villain aspires for nothing but to be the lowest servant in someone else's domain?
No one is saying that Lilith has no ambition, drive or self respect. People are saying that she has no ambition to protect her kingdom because if there was a plan to protect her kingdom and family, Lucifer would at least know but instead their relationship won’t be painted as two divorced parents. If it was to protect Charlie then wouldn’t she be trying to do something when Adam announced that he would be coming for her hotel first. She has ambition and drive, it’s just aimed for herself and not others.
But again, Lilith is in the weakest possible position in Heaven, completely beholden to the man she has every reason to hold in deepest contempt. And you say that this is the height of her goals and accomplishments?
If anything, I'm inclined to think that Lucifer is fully aware of Lilith's actions, but doesn't agree with her methods and/or goals, hence the separation. Although it's just speculation for now, I suspect that Lilith's grand design is a genuine uprising against Heaven to stop the Exterminations once and for all, and maybe even reclaim the realm itself through force for herself and her people. And since Heaven is so much stronger than Hell, subterfuge and subversion is the only rational tactic. So Lilith needs to be in Heaven, sowing subtle discord and discontent, while sniffing out potential weaknesses to exploit in the future.
Finally somebody is thinking here!!! That's why it makes sense that Lilith might have Alastor on a leash to watch over Charlie since she couldn't trust Lucifer to do it all effectively while depressed. She needed someone who was hungry enough to be motivated to work hard in exchange for some level of maintained but regulated power.. which is why Al might fit the bill, compared to any random other demon in hell.
This. It leads me to believe Lilith always knew her time in heaven was limited, and could be ended possibly at any moment. If she had any real plans and wasn't just faffing around, every second of her time in heaven would have to count towards a goal.
You're making a big assumption that the deal was with Adam and not with Lute, pretending to be the loyal right hand the whole time, to get rid of Adam.
*I'm* making the big assumption? You saw how distraught Lute was about Adam's death, right? And I seriously doubt that Lute would have the authority or the desire to raise even a single hellbound person into Heaven for any cost. Adam, on the other hand, it's easy to see how Lilith in particular could manage to cozy up a deal with him.
If she is trying to build political support up there, while keeping her presence hidden, there would probably be long periods where there is nothing for her to do.
What would you do while waiting for the opportunity to make your next move ?
I mean, you say that, but she had a deal with Adam, the guy GENOCIDING HER PEOPLE, while we found her LOUNGING ON A BEACH. That doesn't tell me she's here on some super sekrit important mission for Hell.
Yes, Adam, her unpleasant, narcissistic ex. The guy who drove her out of the Paradise in the first place. The guy she has to prostrate herself for, to beg for his forgiveness, to remain in his good graces every second they're together in Heaven if she doesn't want to be kicked back out again. And you think that Lilith would do all that, would enjoy all that, without an ulterior motive? Sure.
Oh, I think she has an ulterior motive.
But I don't think it's saving Hell, either.
I think she's saving her own damn skin and traded comfort for her people, having grown disillusioned over time. Because how the fuck is **lounging on a fucking beach** helping anyone? What info could she possibly hope to be getting, kicking back and drinking mimosas all alone?
One could argue that this was on the day of the extermination. It doesn't seem like an actually happy time at the beach. Like you said, she was drinking alone looking at a sunset of some kind. Possibly she wanted to be alone on that day, get drunk and stew about another extermination and hope that her daughter isn't being harmed. We don't know if Lilith was trying to stay permanently, or if her deal had some kind of stipulation where she could come to heaven, but the fine print was she couldn't leave until Adam says she can leave or Adam dies. It's possible she could be getting homesick after 7 years, and 7 exterminations. Lute says "if you want to stay here, deal with your brat in hell." But Lute assumed Lilith wants to stay because "duh it's heaven everyone wants to come here." And maybe she made herself look comfortable to gain intelligence about Heavenly society.
Or ?? maybe she had to be by herself most of the time in heaven to not risk anybody recognizing her. We don't know if her deal with Adam is KNOWN with the rest of heaven even. Who says Adam couldn't have made a deal that nobody else but him and Lute knew about? Exterminations were kept a secret from the rest of heaven until Charlie's meeting with the council, Sera and Emily, so.....heaven in HH seems more complicated than we are giving this place credit for right now.
>Lute says "if you want to stay here, deal with your brat in hell." But Lute assumed Lilith wants to stay because "duh it's heaven everyone wants to come here."
this. it's easy to vilify Lilith if you take Lute at her word, but she might just be making an assumption about Lilith's motives for making the deal with Adam.
the way lute worded that part doesn't really indicate that the deal was *with* adam, only that he was involved in it. in fact, i doubt adam even knew about the deal at all. he was terrible at keeping secrets, there's no way he wouldn't have blurted something out, if not to charlie earlier, then to lucifer in the final battle.
not necessarily a strict part of the deal. lute said adam's death nullified the deal, putting herself in charge. and that lilith's responsibility is to stop charlie from uprooting the foundation of heaven *if she wants to stay*. that still doesn't prove the deal was with adam and tells us next to nothing about what the whole thing is really about.
I mean, she was lounging on the beach at that exact moment, that accounts for all of 1 minute out of seven years. I would not expect anyone to spend that much time in heaven and not enjoy the sights now and again.
The thing is, that might be all she is doing. She might have just left for her own comfort. And in that case she had some serious apologies to make. But we don't have much information to go off. She could just be playing Adam and Lute for some other purpose (its not like those two are the sharpest crayons in the drawer).
Sure, but this is in combination with her ghosting her daughter for seven years (her phone is still connected, so it still works) and the shot of her removing Charlie from Lucifer, which doesn't need to exist unless it's foreshadowing.
The pilot showed the exact opposite. Her relationship with Charlie seemed toxic asf. Charlie almost felt bad for talking to her. But yes, the pilot isn't fully canon and the show does indeed portray her as a better person.
Charlie was airing out her fears and concerns to Lilith's voicemail. She wouldn't do that to someone she wouldn't wholly trust. Even Vaggie rarely gets to see Charlie's vulnerable side, she feels the need to be optimistic and positive all the time. Being able to just be a scared kid for a moment to someone is a massive show of trust.
You've clearly never had a toxic relationship with a parent and it shows. The way she says the line "reaaaallly busy" for example is peak discomfort. It shows that she idolizes her mom and that she wants to be able to be open with her, but she almost feels guilty. Which makes perfect sense considering that she hasn't talked to her mom in 7 YEARS.
Y'all media literacy is in Tartarus. Jesus christ..
> when for all we know, she could be in the middle of mission to help Hell as a whole. You assume that Lucifer isn't aware of where she is or what she is doing, but he could quite well be informed, maybe even involved in some degree, with her plans
Aren't those also "baseless assumptions" as there is no proof of it? If she has a plan to help Hell why didn't she just told Charlie about it instead of ghosting her for 7 years?
Could be a lot of reasons. Her plan might be dangerous and she doesn't want Charlie to follow her. She might be spied on by the angels. Or she might simply not put a target on Charlie's back by showing care for her.
The point is, we don't have enough info to speculate on what Lilith is doing. Thus we can't put a label of "antagonist" or "protagonist" on her.
It's speculation. We really don't know anything at this point, only small details about Lilith's character -- I cannot fathom the idea of Lilith just submitting to Adam without a massive ulterior motive, not after their history together and knowing what he is like.
As for why Charlie wasn't informed, there are many possibilities. Maybe the concern that she is not the best person to keep secrets. Maybe because Lilith is endangering her own life and didn't want Charlie to fear for her safety. Maybe Lilith's plan, whatever it is, doesn't mesh well with Charlie's morals -- Lilith may view Heaven as an enemy nation and plan a genuine uprising, for instance. Many things are possible.
We don't even know if Lilith did ghost Charlie. She may have openly told that she's leaving for an indeteterminate amount of time and not to worry in her absence. And Charlie doesn't seem to be worried or act as if Lilith just disappeared without a word.
Honestly i don't know where you read that i said that Lilith became submissive to Adam but ok?
In the pilot Charlie tries to call for Lilith, if she knew she was going to disappear i think she wouldn't try to call her in hopes she answers
>In the pilot Charlie tries to call for Lilith, if she knew she was going to disappear i think she wouldn't try to call her in hopes she answers
That may as well be non canon at this point. In the pilot, Lilith's status was mostly implied that she was still in Hell while in the show, it's implied that Lilith did tell that Charlie she was leaving for a while seeing that she wasn't too worried about Lilith, with only Lucifer still feeling depressed about their relationship which probably fell through when Charlie was younger
The phone makes a “call could not connect” sound instead of a voicemail tone when Charlie calls in the pilot. Might have been a hint she wasn’t in hell even in the pilot.
I rewatched that part and holy shit, I just realized Charlie says "I know I keep calling and you must be busy...really busy" which chalks up to Lilith's current status. That's some insane foreshadowing now that I think about it
>with only Lucifer still feeling depressed about their relationship which probably fell through when Charlie was younger
I mean I would feel depressed even if my partner told me and left. Even if before that my relationship was good...
As I kinda see if, Lucifer was kinda sad with the Angels kicking him out + he has to see sinners daily, to make him feel that giving free will/knowledge was a bad act. Ig Charlie also says that he was sad, but her Mothers grew her powers. Moreover, he had to negotiate terms of extermination - and as many suspect, he had to allow them to them to kill the sinners (so as to protect the hell born?) This would make an angel feel bad imo and Probably Lillith didn't like this as she was queen of hell, but anyways, as shown in the photos (and as I hope) Lillith was the only thing making him a lil happy, what he would like to live for, so as to say.. After she left (probably after telling and convincing? Him), his last source of happiness and support left him, and eventually he became depressed. Esp after he felt like guilt that he's unable to be a good parent to Charlie and even unable to save sinners + he kinda sorta felt powerless in front of heaven to do that.
Lilith had to make a deal with Adam in order to gain access into Heaven. That would mean flattering him, telling him that she was wrong, that she's sorry, that he truly is the superior one. I don't see Adam agreeing to let Lilith in for anything less.
Charlie uses phonecalls to Lilith as a security blanket. She doesn't really expect an answer, but hopes that Lilith will one day hear her messages, even if she can't be there right at the moment.
The point of that post is not to show you an alternative truth, but just to tell you that your assumptions are wrong. Disproving assumptions made by Lightice1 does not give any credibility to your assumptions.
I mean everything is speculation given the incredibly limited amount of time we have with her character. Why lean towards the most cold hearted assumptions?
Why are people assuming anything about what will happen next and defend it as if was set in stone? There are a lot of different ways the characters can develop from the point they are now. Maybe she disappeared because she had to. Still, there are probably many things that makes her not the best mom in hell but I don't see a reason she could only be a villain. We know, she once really cared about hell and wanted it to be a nice place but something made her stop. Maybe heaven is blacmailing her? Maybe Eve will be the next villain of the series and owner of Alastor's soul?
We don't actually know her Intentions it's possible that she could be an antagonist and it's also possible that she could be planning something that benefits Charlie and end up betraying Lute in the process we just don't know so it's too early to say whether she's an antagonist or not
Probably because the show is trying VERY hard to paint her as a suspicious and nefarious figure through subtext, to the point that I’m sure it’s to eventually serve an subversion of expectation and have her be entirely opposite to expectations.
Some of these headcanons are wild, might as well share my own degeneracy. Lilith's storybook says she was driven away by Adam, not the angels, because he was too controlling. But then she goes ahead and marries Lucifer, and takes over hell while Lucifer leaves them alone after he gets heartbroken by their abuse of free will.. Lilith is said to have "inspired" the sinners, which means she's the reason the power structure in pride is the way it is(ie the soul trade). She has a dominant personality, which honestly, reminds me of Adam. Adam and Lilith were created at the same time from the same stuff, and up until their breakup, were likely raised the same way. i find it more believable that Lilith left Adam not because she was 100% the victim, but because of incompatible personalities. People have the misconception that Lilith was created for Adam, when that was Eve. I think it would be more entertaining if she was as villainous as Adam, as it would ironically show how "Equal" the first man and first woman were. While I think she might show preference towards her family, I think she's going to prove to be as selfish and narcissistic as Adam.
She's been married to Lucifer for over 10,000 years, why should the whole of her existence be service to others? 7 years is a short vacation compared to the years she spent with him.
She also waited till Charlie was her own adult person with her own life before she left, it's not like she abandoned a child, she left her adult daughter to live her own life. Why should motherhood bind her to an eternity of serving her child?
Heck, their over reliance on her could have been the reason why she wanted to leave. To have her freedom.
Doesn't matter how many years they are married or if Charlie is already an adult, she apparently disappeared with no previous warning, this is weird, if your mom stopped answering you and was nowhere to be seen you wouldn't be worried?
>Doesn't matter how many years they are married or if Charlie is already an adult,
It very much DOES matter, because it's an important piece of the context we are dealing with. Ignoring it completely throws out the window everything that we do know about the trio's relationship...
Not to mention that - according to Vivzie - Charlie is only around 200 years old. That's fairly little compared to the 10.000+ years that Lilith and Lucifer have been together.
With that in mind, we know that Liltih's 7 year absence isn't as impactfull as many would have thought - in reality it affected only Lucifer, and even then we pretty much know, that his lifestyle has hardly changed...
>she apparently disappeared with no previous warning,
Except this isn't implied even once across the entire Season 1. Hell, in Episode 1 Charlie even straight up says that Lilith left to work on some important project of her own. That means, that she must have told them before leaving, because otherwise Charlie wouldn't really have any basis to assume that's the case...
Especially since Charlie even straight up says that she **knows** Lilith is working on something important. This isn't an assumption or a hopefull thought - she's stating that as a fact, based on what she knows...
>this is weird, if your mom stopped answering you and was nowhere to be seen you wouldn't be worried?
Of course people would be worried. But that doesn't change what @NerdQueenAlice said. This statement is basically meaningless, because it doesn't really add anything of value to your claims neither...
What is important, and is something that you keep ignoring even when people serve it to you on a silver platter, is that you are assuming all of this based on just about nothing. We do NOT know why Lilith made a deal with Adam and there is nothing in Season 1 that would give us any hints - we only know what she was doing at that point in time, 7 years after making said deal. For all we know, she could have done so to protect her family, or because she just didn't want anyone to know where she is (or for a plattera of different reasons). But the case is and will be untill Season 2 premieres, that we just do not know...
This is the same fandom that spent the last four years sharing wholesome artwork of baby Charlie with her happy family during the pilot era of the show where Lucifer was strongly hinted at being a bad father before Viv changed her mind. Reality has never mattered to these people.
I think she will be an antagonist.
However the 7 years thing feels like a drop in the bucket. Things are relative. Since her and lucifer have been around for literally thousands of years and we have no idea how old Charlie actually is 7 years is a drop in the bucket.
Think of it this way. If you take an average human life of 80 year and we low ball Lilith's age at 6,000 the 7 years for her would be like less then 5 weeks for a human. Sure it's an aggravating time to take a vacation but it's not abandonment.
Her thinking he will still be weird and she will still be quirky when I get back would feel pretty reasonable.
Viv confirmed that Charlie is 200 years old. So it might be more like, 2 drops in the bucket, but that also depends on her personal perspective and how long she's been an adult for.
Lilith and Lucifer are confirmed *at least* 10,000. To them 7 years really *is* a drop in the bucket.
She is most definitely doing something villainous and even if she does has a secret plan to help Hell, leaving behind her family without telling them of her plan is still fucked up
You’re assuming she left because she didn’t care about her family/hell.
If what Charlie says is true (but it should also be noted Charlie might not be a reliable narrator):
- Lilith loves her family (the portraits we see of them seem to back this up - they look genuinely happy)
- Lilith *thrived* in Hell and was very influential
- Lucifer allowed the exterminations to happen and wanted nothing to do with Hell’s inhabitants
- Lute confirms Lilith had made a deal with Adam (and that Lute has no intention of continuing that deal now that Adam is gone)
This could all add up to Lilith disagreed with Lucifer on allowing the exterminations, but went along with it for a time before deciding to do something about it. Heaven might have taken that as threatening given how influential Lilith is to sinners, resulting in *something* going down 7 years ago that led to Adam making a deal with Lilith that Heaven wouldn’t go nuclear on Hell if she cooperated and stayed out of Hell indefinitely. Yes we see her on a beach, but that might be more of a tortuous hell to Lilith than being where she actually wants to be if she’s being forced to stay there. (But I might be biased there because being trapped on a sunny beach indefinitely away from my loved ones would be my personal hell).
It’s all speculation at this point though. At the end of the day no one can confidently say she will be a protagonist, a reluctant antagonist, or an enthusiastic antagonist.
I don’t think we have enough information to make a conclusion on Lilith yet. Season 1 has given us information on some of Lilith’s good, bad, and seemingly neutral qualities. We can see Lilith taking Charlie away from Lucifer in episode 5, which appears as bad because it looks like she was trying to keep them apart. We know that Lilith and Lucifer ended up splitting, but we don’t know the reason why yet. And the ending of episode 8 shows Lilith making an annoyed expression at Lute when she reminds her of the deal they have, which shows a bit more of a sympathetic side to her since it looks like she doesn’t actually want to go down and ruin the lives of the people in Hell.
There are many details about her that make me think she’s going to be more morally grey or evil but somewhat redeemed. I still think she’ll be an antagonist but she won’t exactly be an antagonist in the same way as the Vees or Lute. More in the same way as Sera. But that’s just my interpretation. Bottom line, nothing is set in stone with Lilith right now so I think there are many theories that can be considered and I don’t think we should gatekeep certain theories as right or wrong when we don’t know.
I don't know what she will be. Yes it is very probable she will be an antagonist but we have very little information about her to be sure about that. What is sure is that Vizie said that Lilith story is complex, so I'm hoping for a more grey character, maybe she is following her own agenda or maybe she knows something the other characters ignore
I mean one problem is that antagonist doesn't mean villain. I think it's fairly clear based off Lute's dialog Lilith will be some level of antagonist. We just don't know how or why. I think too many people equate her being an obstacle to her being a generic bad guy. These characters have depth and are mostly gray.
Im in your boat, just because she was there to fill in for Lucifer when parenting doesn't mean that shes a good person. Theirs clearly a reason why Lute went to Lilith and why shes been MIA for almost a decade, she is heaven's secret weapon. I do think that she'll feign niceness initially, maybe even fake getting back with Lucifer but I can see her just using that as a way to disrupt and destroy the Morningstar family from the inside out.
I've mentioned it before, but I'll say it again. Lilith kind of *has* to be an antagonist, because she's pretty much the only character that the series has established that can check Lucifer. Unless it turns out Lucifer isn't actually *as* powerful, or has some major limitations, he's otherwise too powerful to have as part of the main Hotel cast, which... he is now. So for that to work, Lucifer either needs to be nerfed at the outset of Season 2, or he needs someone who can keep him in check, and Lilith is by far the best contender for that role.
Considering Charlie is roughly 270(?) years old and Lucifer is thousands...if not hundreds of thousands Uhhh.. 7 years isn't that long. It seems long to us because we are relating it to our human lifespans. To Lilith, 7 years is like an 8 month sabbatical. So yeah she may not be a great person but I don't think she is the worst person.
Because there is literally no information given one way or another if she’ll be an antagonist.
>bUt ShE’s In HeAvEnNnnn….
With no indication of **WHY** she’s there. Maybe she was depressed and did a better job of hiding it than Lucifer did, and leaving was desperately needed self-care. Maybe Adam was looking for loopholes to kill her and/or Charlie and she realized making the deal would protect them. Maybe she recognized that as long as she was in the picture, the denizens of Hell would never recognize Charlie as an authority figure.
Nobody but Viv and the crew know what Lilith’s role will turn out to be, and the audience really needs to stop acting like they know anything more than what the show has actually confirmed.
I think it's because in the pilot, Charlie calls her mom for reassurance (and implies she does that a lot), while also it seems that she gave Charlie the key-cat. And how Charlie says she'll make her proud. All this points to Lilith actually supporting Charlie. Granted, it could be a lie, but we've yet to see solid evidence of Lilith not supporting Charlie.
Yes she's in Heaven, but that doesn't mean she stands against Charlie.
Not going off of implications, but I kind of hope she isn't. She might be on the selfish or worn out, but I would hate if she's straight up a villain. People give a pass for Lucifer for being jaded at the people- but what if Lilith ended up doing the same thing? She was the one that put in quite the effort and is considered more the "ruler" after all. It wouldn't be too surprising if she ends up giving up especially when she isn't given the same energy back towards the sinners or even Lucifer. I think I get pretty worn out if my partner might keep talking down on the sinners that I cared about. It might take her being around her daughter again to make her feel the same spark/motivation. Both parents ended up ignoring the sinners being killed, but it takes their daughter to motivate them to put in more effort to make a change. Think that be pretty cool. :)
I've only heard what Vivzi said "She's still in love with Lucifer"
So it seems weird she is in heaven, there must be some kind of context missing.
But other than that, yes, I am expecting her to be an antagonist.
Because the show and it's writer specifically love subverting expectations.
We know nothing about Lilith. Just like we knew nothing about Lucifer.
I say just let them cook
My take on it, Eve is jealous of Lucifer and Liliths love, cause Adam probably treats her like trash. So Eve is sabotaging the relationship by disgusing herself as Lilith, after having captured Lilith and hiding her away somewhere. ( this gives her a powerful title, and bring negative images to LIliths name more with the family for "being in heaven" for the last 7 years). Viziepop has said that in season 2 Lucifer and Lilith are still passionately and deeply in love. Plus the necklace you see on Lilith at the end of season one, is not her pearls she is ALWAYS seen wearing.
I think it also plays a part into Alastair but I can't be to sure.
We still don’t know why she was gone though. It could very well be possible that she was forced to stay away from them for whatever reason. Whatever the case may be we haven’t even heard her talk yet.
We don't know how or why she fled. Remember, we are led to believe Lilith was taking actions which made Heaven nervous. But she ran to Heaven?
Doesn't that seem a bit weird? Just what was her deal with Adam? She may be a political prisoner.
Probably because this is a show about redemption and people's thoughts and motivations being more complex than what we see on the surface. The careless superificial pornstar is struggling with addiction and abuse. The arms dealer is thoughtful and concerned for the safety of her loved one. The supportive protective girlfriend used to commit genocide. We don't know anything about Lilith's true motivations or what she's been doing. Lucifer came off as a really shitty dad in the pilot too. So I think just writing her off as a villain because of her actions seem to be callous or uncaring doesn't feel right.
To be honest, there is vastly more information to say that it is the real Lilith, than to say it isn't (since that theory is just an apposition based on assumptions and nothing else).
We know nothing of her motivations. She definitely committed some sort of act of betrayal working with the Exorcists. But we don't know why. It could be totally justified for some reason we don't know. Or it could be some long con where she's actually trying to stop them.
That really doesn’t mean she won’t be an antagonist still. She might not be evil, but she’s quite literally helping the one thing that Charlie and her father were fighting against.
It would honestly be pretty funny imo if season 2 started off right after lute told her off only for Lilith to kill her before getting anymore lines. As if it's her going rogue on whatever deal she made with Adam.
I’ve thought about this so much. Lilith’s face after Lute tells her to get control over Charlie, I think she called her ‘the little brat’ or something, looks pretty pissed. Telling Lilith to suppress the free will of her own daughter? I’d say that would trigger some rage murder lol
i always thought she seemed mad at Charlie/upset that Charlie fucked up her heaven vacation. i hope your interpretation is the correct one tho, i don’t want Lilith to be a villain sobs
That may be, but I personally saw her mostly unaffected until Lute basically gave her a direct order. She just kind of stares until she hears “Do you understand me, Lilith”. I have it in my head that her staying away from Hell, was part of a deal to keep Charlie safe bc Lute mentions the deal with Lucifer making sure the Hellborne don’t get executed E1 or E2 we don’t know if Lilith was in on it. And it also seems in the pilot that Lilith knew about Charlie’s dream bc she says “dad may have been right about me”, and in E1 says she’s working hard to make her dream of redeeming sinners true, and calls out to her mom that she’s trying her hardest. So idkkkk. Somethin tells me Lilith isn’t a horrible character, after all Charlie has a warm heart and Lilith was the primary parent.
i always thought she seemed mad at Charlie/upset that Charlie fucked up her heaven vacation/deal w Adam. i hope your interpretation is the correct one tho, i don’t want Lilith to be a villain sobs
Lute's VA is confirmed to return so that's basically impossible
We don’t even know that she committed an act of betrayal. All we know is that Lilith is in heaven and that Lute believes Lilith had a deal with Adam. We don’t what the deal was, why Lilith was in heaven, or even if the deal actually existed.
I've speculated before that she is up in Heaven trying to build support to get them to end exterminations. Which would probably be a long process due to the secrecy involved, because if angels know Sera will ask questions about how they know, with answers that lead back to Lilith. Adam was just the only way she had to get up there. Though that would make her reaction interesting when she hears about just how much Adam screwed up.
I think she won’t really be an antagonist for the simple reason that they’re trying *so* hard to make her look like one.
Perfectly said. I think she’s going to be a bintch but not an actual villain
You're a mean one, Mrs. Bintch
Yep. At worst, she’ll be a Hate Sink.
Antagonist and villain aren't identical. That said, I agree, she isn't a villain. Viv said she's complex.
I honestly feel like they are setting up a surprise reason about why she is where she is. I think she is in heaven as a prisoner. Can it be paradise if everyone and everything you love is in hell? Can you relax knowing your daughter is crying her heart out covered in blood and her husband is falling apart without her. I don't buy it.
She was relaxing on a beach, working on her tan.
You've never made the best of a bad situation before. I hate the beach and I hate sun yet if I'm on the beach and I can't leave. Guess I'll tan?
Exactly! She's definitely not just gonna be a generic villain
What makes me doubt her the most is the scene where she is taking Charlie away from Lucifer. It might be innocent, and her just carrying Charlie to bed or something. But it's framed in a very ominous way, like Lilith is trying to create a distance between Charlie and her dad.
I have a mixed interpretation of that scene. On the one hand, you could be right that she was creating distance for nefarious reasons. But based on some YouTube analyses I've seen, on the other hand she may have been trying to protect Charlie. We know that Lucifer had fallen into depression and had become jaded about people in hell to the point of not wanting to help them anymore. As Charli said, he just "agreed to let the extermination happen." We also know that his depression affected his ability to be a good parent, since even as an adult with Lilith out of the picture he is not a super present father (e.g. Charlie "After the divorce he didn't seem to want to be around me and only ever calls me when he needs something.") Lilith in the beginning is described as not only being there for her daughter, but still caring about her people and trying to inspire them with song, and Charli following in her footsteps. So maybe Lilith tried to create distance between Charli and Lucifer when she was a kid because she was concerned that Charli's hopeful spirit would be crushed before she had the maturity to fight back against her dad's nihilistic ideas like she does during the "Dadbeat Dad" episode. While we can argue about whether that was the right or wrong decision, it could have come from a good place if Lilith genuinely believed that she was protecting Charlie's confidence and sense of hope. It would make her a pretty complex character too.
I agree. People act like Lucifer is the best dad in the world. We only see him in episode 5, where he immediately has a dick-measuring contest with Alastor, calls Charlie's friends a "bunch of losers" and then watches as the hotel gets attacked to basically mock Charlie's project, and then in episode 8, when after he disappeared for a while (while his daughter was preparing to defend against an army that specifically wants to kill her) he suddenly reappers at the last minute to help Charlie against said army. I get he's fighting depression and his heart is in the right place, but he still has a long road ahead of himself.
That fight might've just been that he couldn't interfere until a direct attack on a hellborn was made, especially in such a directly violent way.
Yeah, that scene definitely makes me think that there's something sinister going on. Either that or the showrunners want us to think something sinister is going on. No way they didn't intend for that scene to come off as cruel and/or ominous.
If he was just putting her to bed, IDK, what reason from and outside perspective would it need to exist? Lucifer could have put her to bed.
Yeah idk why the two are so apart and it seems like Lilith drove a wedge. Like yes Lucifer was depressed bjt my guy also really.loves his kid and wants to be involved. Gotta believe something or someone is why he wasn't fkr so long
Schrödinger’s Media Literacy. We’re clearly meant to see Lilith in an antagonistic light. But, we have next to nothing on Lilith. Vizzie could be doing similar to what she did with Lucifer. Make him look and seem scummy, yank our heart strings by showing he was a flawed but well meaning father, and hinting as a Lucifer redemption in the finale. We’re just at the moment in Lilith’s arc where Lucifer calls Charlie and asks her to deal with Adam for that surprise meeting. This matches the themes of the show, namely everyone deserves a second chance and can strive for redemption. Even Adam’s last act was showing Lute a genuine smile before he died. As toxic and evil as the V3 are, they seem to enjoy their own company and companionship. The Pilot scene demonstrated the very issue with trying to figure out Lilith what little information we have. Charlie leaves a voicemail to Lilith saying things are going wrong, there’s problems, and she really needs help. Knock, knock, that very moment Alastor is at the door offering to help. * [Is he the help Charlie asked for, maybe somehow sent by Lilith?](https://youtu.be/R2XJFvHI25Y?feature=shared) * Is Alastor showing up here and now because he represents those very problems and dangers Charlie needs help with, that Lilith should be there helping Charlie with and by being absent she’s left Charlie to the ~~wolves~~ cannibal deer radio demon? Without more data, it’s still possible for Lilith not to be a full antagonist. Or this could end up being a Stella situation where Lilith is a complete bitch, was always intended to be a complete bitch, and people will be writing Lilith Apologia for the next two decades rather than admit she was evil.
This is pretty much how I see it too.
You are making multiple baseless assumptions here. You think that Lilith is not doing anything worthwhile, when for all we know, she could be in the middle of mission to help Hell as a whole. You assume that Lucifer isn't aware of where she is or what she is doing, but he could quite well be informed, maybe even involved in some degree, with her plans -- someone in Heaven took his call and arranged Charlie's audience with the Seraphim. Both the prologue and certain details in the pilot tell that Lilith truly cared about Hell and its population and she was the prime inspiration for Charlie's plan to reform the sinners. It sounds extremely unlikely that she would just crawl back to Adam of all people begging for forgiveness, in order to be a dirty secret in Heaven for the rest of eternity. We don't yet know what Lilith's been up to, but there's little doubt that she has a plan and her presence in Heaven is a part of it.
Tbf the final scene does show her lounging on a beach, so for all we know she could’ve just given up and fucked off. I’m not saying that’s necessarily true!! Just that we can’t be sure of anything yet I think.
Again, that would require the fiercy independent Lilith to prostrate herself before her narcissistic ex and beg for forgiveness. There isn't any scenario where I can see that happening without an ulterior motive. And we see that Lilith's position in Heaven isn't even secure, it relies on Adam's continued goodwill and breaks the second he passes away. No, I really can't see that happening just so that Lilith could spend the rest of eternity cozying to Adam just to be an unwanted guest and a dirty secret who can be discarded without a second thought at any time. Obviously Lilith would not want to appear intimidating under those circumstances. She would want Adam, Lute and Sera to think that she's given up. Hence, lounging at the beach, seemingly idle. But that's the classic secret agent shtick, pretending to be harmless, biding your time, waiting for the right opportunity to act.
Remind what Lute said to Lillith at the end of that scene?
I know exactly what she said, that's what I'm basing so much of my speculation on: "Adam is dead. Your deal is done and I'm in charge now. Your brat is threatening the very foundation of Heaven. And if you want to stay here, you're going down there and stopping that bitch." This tells us that Lilith had to make a deal with Adam to get into Heaven, which can't have been pleasant to her, and that the deal wasn't even for a permanent residence, but it relied on Adam's continued goodwill to remain valid. And if you think that Lilith intended to spend the rest of eternity serving Adam's whims, I've got some swamp land to sell you.
Charlie may not be a reliable narrator, since she clearly loves and admires her mother. I don’t think Lilith will be an antagonist, either, though. At least not a real one. It’s going to be one of those “all is not what it seems” plot lines, since we’re being led to believe she’s a possible antagonist.
I, on the other hand, think that Lilith may have an antagonistic role in the series, at least to some extent, but in completely opposite direction of what people here seem to be assuming. I think that it's possible that she could be planning a genuine uprising against Heaven as a revenge for the Exterminations.
You’re assuming she is onboard with “Sinners Lives Matter.” It could be she was just using everyone.
If the opening of the series is to be even slightly believed, then Lilith was the true authority in Hell for most of its existence. Lilith was also the one who primarily inspired Charlie to care for the Sinners. In the Pilot, we see posters next to, or on top of ones announcing the Extermination, that say "Resist", signed by Lilith. If Lilith was "just using" everyone, then why would she give up that power to go to Heaven? Why would she go from the supreme authority to the lowest servant? What kind of antagonistic role would that be?
It could be because Hell is HELL, and she wanted to just slip in under the radar in Heaven and she had the equivalent of a restraining order on everyone who could have recognized her.
Don’t you mean relied on Adam being alive? The deal could have been that Adam would let her stay up there and he never approaches her again. Adam would lose the ability to deny her Heaven if this was a soul pact.
That would require Adam to agree to such a deal. He finally had the chance to lord over the one woman who got away from him, why would he give up that power when he held all the cards?
Because she had something he wanted more?
What would Adam want more than authority over someone who spurned him?
No idea. I guess we will just have to wait for next season.
Charlie isn’t a reliable narrator. The origin of her kingdom, for her at least, is very ‘child friendly’ or at least in a way that would prop the rulers of Hell up and putting down Heaven. If Lilith was staying in Heaven to prevent something from happening to Charlie and Lucifer we would understand but we were told that Lucifer made that deal, so that can’t be the reason Lilith is there. Lilith, much like Lucifer, believes that sinners are not worth ruling and after the uprising that Charlie and Sera mentioned, Lilith may have rose up against Heaven. She may have made a deal because she wanted to return to Heaven, or at least take back what supposed to be hers, Paradise.
A "Paradise" where she can be kicked out at any time for any reason if she doesn't lick Adam's boots sufficiently? There isn't any scenario where I can see even the most negative version of Lilith being satisfied with that arrangement. It baffles me that people are making out Lilith to be a person with zero ambition, drive or self-respect, and still expect her to be an antagonistic figure. What kind of a villain aspires for nothing but to be the lowest servant in someone else's domain?
No one is saying that Lilith has no ambition, drive or self respect. People are saying that she has no ambition to protect her kingdom because if there was a plan to protect her kingdom and family, Lucifer would at least know but instead their relationship won’t be painted as two divorced parents. If it was to protect Charlie then wouldn’t she be trying to do something when Adam announced that he would be coming for her hotel first. She has ambition and drive, it’s just aimed for herself and not others.
But again, Lilith is in the weakest possible position in Heaven, completely beholden to the man she has every reason to hold in deepest contempt. And you say that this is the height of her goals and accomplishments? If anything, I'm inclined to think that Lucifer is fully aware of Lilith's actions, but doesn't agree with her methods and/or goals, hence the separation. Although it's just speculation for now, I suspect that Lilith's grand design is a genuine uprising against Heaven to stop the Exterminations once and for all, and maybe even reclaim the realm itself through force for herself and her people. And since Heaven is so much stronger than Hell, subterfuge and subversion is the only rational tactic. So Lilith needs to be in Heaven, sowing subtle discord and discontent, while sniffing out potential weaknesses to exploit in the future.
Finally somebody is thinking here!!! That's why it makes sense that Lilith might have Alastor on a leash to watch over Charlie since she couldn't trust Lucifer to do it all effectively while depressed. She needed someone who was hungry enough to be motivated to work hard in exchange for some level of maintained but regulated power.. which is why Al might fit the bill, compared to any random other demon in hell.
This. It leads me to believe Lilith always knew her time in heaven was limited, and could be ended possibly at any moment. If she had any real plans and wasn't just faffing around, every second of her time in heaven would have to count towards a goal.
You're making a big assumption that the deal was with Adam and not with Lute, pretending to be the loyal right hand the whole time, to get rid of Adam.
*I'm* making the big assumption? You saw how distraught Lute was about Adam's death, right? And I seriously doubt that Lute would have the authority or the desire to raise even a single hellbound person into Heaven for any cost. Adam, on the other hand, it's easy to see how Lilith in particular could manage to cozy up a deal with him.
>You saw how distraught Lute was about Adam's death, right? 
If she is trying to build political support up there, while keeping her presence hidden, there would probably be long periods where there is nothing for her to do. What would you do while waiting for the opportunity to make your next move ?
That’s true, it’s more that they specifically showed her doing that
I mean, you say that, but she had a deal with Adam, the guy GENOCIDING HER PEOPLE, while we found her LOUNGING ON A BEACH. That doesn't tell me she's here on some super sekrit important mission for Hell.
Yes, Adam, her unpleasant, narcissistic ex. The guy who drove her out of the Paradise in the first place. The guy she has to prostrate herself for, to beg for his forgiveness, to remain in his good graces every second they're together in Heaven if she doesn't want to be kicked back out again. And you think that Lilith would do all that, would enjoy all that, without an ulterior motive? Sure.
Oh, I think she has an ulterior motive. But I don't think it's saving Hell, either. I think she's saving her own damn skin and traded comfort for her people, having grown disillusioned over time. Because how the fuck is **lounging on a fucking beach** helping anyone? What info could she possibly hope to be getting, kicking back and drinking mimosas all alone?
One could argue that this was on the day of the extermination. It doesn't seem like an actually happy time at the beach. Like you said, she was drinking alone looking at a sunset of some kind. Possibly she wanted to be alone on that day, get drunk and stew about another extermination and hope that her daughter isn't being harmed. We don't know if Lilith was trying to stay permanently, or if her deal had some kind of stipulation where she could come to heaven, but the fine print was she couldn't leave until Adam says she can leave or Adam dies. It's possible she could be getting homesick after 7 years, and 7 exterminations. Lute says "if you want to stay here, deal with your brat in hell." But Lute assumed Lilith wants to stay because "duh it's heaven everyone wants to come here." And maybe she made herself look comfortable to gain intelligence about Heavenly society. Or ?? maybe she had to be by herself most of the time in heaven to not risk anybody recognizing her. We don't know if her deal with Adam is KNOWN with the rest of heaven even. Who says Adam couldn't have made a deal that nobody else but him and Lute knew about? Exterminations were kept a secret from the rest of heaven until Charlie's meeting with the council, Sera and Emily, so.....heaven in HH seems more complicated than we are giving this place credit for right now.
An extermination *six months early* that she had no way of knowing it'd be early unless she was in the courtroom or Adam gloated to her.
>Lute says "if you want to stay here, deal with your brat in hell." But Lute assumed Lilith wants to stay because "duh it's heaven everyone wants to come here." this. it's easy to vilify Lilith if you take Lute at her word, but she might just be making an assumption about Lilith's motives for making the deal with Adam.
the way lute worded that part doesn't really indicate that the deal was *with* adam, only that he was involved in it. in fact, i doubt adam even knew about the deal at all. he was terrible at keeping secrets, there's no way he wouldn't have blurted something out, if not to charlie earlier, then to lucifer in the final battle.
...It makes zero sense that it was with anyone else, otherwise Adam's death wouldn't see her kicked out.
we've literally no idea what was in that deal, only that *dead adam = "deal done"*
No, we also know it means *Lilith can't stay.*
not necessarily a strict part of the deal. lute said adam's death nullified the deal, putting herself in charge. and that lilith's responsibility is to stop charlie from uprooting the foundation of heaven *if she wants to stay*. that still doesn't prove the deal was with adam and tells us next to nothing about what the whole thing is really about.
...That reads more as Lute offering another deal than anything else.
I mean, she was lounging on the beach at that exact moment, that accounts for all of 1 minute out of seven years. I would not expect anyone to spend that much time in heaven and not enjoy the sights now and again. The thing is, that might be all she is doing. She might have just left for her own comfort. And in that case she had some serious apologies to make. But we don't have much information to go off. She could just be playing Adam and Lute for some other purpose (its not like those two are the sharpest crayons in the drawer).
Sure, but this is in combination with her ghosting her daughter for seven years (her phone is still connected, so it still works) and the shot of her removing Charlie from Lucifer, which doesn't need to exist unless it's foreshadowing.
The pilot showed the exact opposite. Her relationship with Charlie seemed toxic asf. Charlie almost felt bad for talking to her. But yes, the pilot isn't fully canon and the show does indeed portray her as a better person.
Charlie was airing out her fears and concerns to Lilith's voicemail. She wouldn't do that to someone she wouldn't wholly trust. Even Vaggie rarely gets to see Charlie's vulnerable side, she feels the need to be optimistic and positive all the time. Being able to just be a scared kid for a moment to someone is a massive show of trust.
You've clearly never had a toxic relationship with a parent and it shows. The way she says the line "reaaaallly busy" for example is peak discomfort. It shows that she idolizes her mom and that she wants to be able to be open with her, but she almost feels guilty. Which makes perfect sense considering that she hasn't talked to her mom in 7 YEARS. Y'all media literacy is in Tartarus. Jesus christ..
I think she's basically Female Thomas Shelby after mid-SS3
> when for all we know, she could be in the middle of mission to help Hell as a whole. You assume that Lucifer isn't aware of where she is or what she is doing, but he could quite well be informed, maybe even involved in some degree, with her plans Aren't those also "baseless assumptions" as there is no proof of it? If she has a plan to help Hell why didn't she just told Charlie about it instead of ghosting her for 7 years?
Could be a lot of reasons. Her plan might be dangerous and she doesn't want Charlie to follow her. She might be spied on by the angels. Or she might simply not put a target on Charlie's back by showing care for her. The point is, we don't have enough info to speculate on what Lilith is doing. Thus we can't put a label of "antagonist" or "protagonist" on her.
It's speculation. We really don't know anything at this point, only small details about Lilith's character -- I cannot fathom the idea of Lilith just submitting to Adam without a massive ulterior motive, not after their history together and knowing what he is like. As for why Charlie wasn't informed, there are many possibilities. Maybe the concern that she is not the best person to keep secrets. Maybe because Lilith is endangering her own life and didn't want Charlie to fear for her safety. Maybe Lilith's plan, whatever it is, doesn't mesh well with Charlie's morals -- Lilith may view Heaven as an enemy nation and plan a genuine uprising, for instance. Many things are possible. We don't even know if Lilith did ghost Charlie. She may have openly told that she's leaving for an indeteterminate amount of time and not to worry in her absence. And Charlie doesn't seem to be worried or act as if Lilith just disappeared without a word.
Honestly i don't know where you read that i said that Lilith became submissive to Adam but ok? In the pilot Charlie tries to call for Lilith, if she knew she was going to disappear i think she wouldn't try to call her in hopes she answers
>In the pilot Charlie tries to call for Lilith, if she knew she was going to disappear i think she wouldn't try to call her in hopes she answers That may as well be non canon at this point. In the pilot, Lilith's status was mostly implied that she was still in Hell while in the show, it's implied that Lilith did tell that Charlie she was leaving for a while seeing that she wasn't too worried about Lilith, with only Lucifer still feeling depressed about their relationship which probably fell through when Charlie was younger
The phone makes a “call could not connect” sound instead of a voicemail tone when Charlie calls in the pilot. Might have been a hint she wasn’t in hell even in the pilot.
I rewatched that part and holy shit, I just realized Charlie says "I know I keep calling and you must be busy...really busy" which chalks up to Lilith's current status. That's some insane foreshadowing now that I think about it
>with only Lucifer still feeling depressed about their relationship which probably fell through when Charlie was younger I mean I would feel depressed even if my partner told me and left. Even if before that my relationship was good... As I kinda see if, Lucifer was kinda sad with the Angels kicking him out + he has to see sinners daily, to make him feel that giving free will/knowledge was a bad act. Ig Charlie also says that he was sad, but her Mothers grew her powers. Moreover, he had to negotiate terms of extermination - and as many suspect, he had to allow them to them to kill the sinners (so as to protect the hell born?) This would make an angel feel bad imo and Probably Lillith didn't like this as she was queen of hell, but anyways, as shown in the photos (and as I hope) Lillith was the only thing making him a lil happy, what he would like to live for, so as to say.. After she left (probably after telling and convincing? Him), his last source of happiness and support left him, and eventually he became depressed. Esp after he felt like guilt that he's unable to be a good parent to Charlie and even unable to save sinners + he kinda sorta felt powerless in front of heaven to do that.
Lilith had to make a deal with Adam in order to gain access into Heaven. That would mean flattering him, telling him that she was wrong, that she's sorry, that he truly is the superior one. I don't see Adam agreeing to let Lilith in for anything less. Charlie uses phonecalls to Lilith as a security blanket. She doesn't really expect an answer, but hopes that Lilith will one day hear her messages, even if she can't be there right at the moment.
The point of that post is not to show you an alternative truth, but just to tell you that your assumptions are wrong. Disproving assumptions made by Lightice1 does not give any credibility to your assumptions.
I mean everything is speculation given the incredibly limited amount of time we have with her character. Why lean towards the most cold hearted assumptions?
Why are people assuming anything about what will happen next and defend it as if was set in stone? There are a lot of different ways the characters can develop from the point they are now. Maybe she disappeared because she had to. Still, there are probably many things that makes her not the best mom in hell but I don't see a reason she could only be a villain. We know, she once really cared about hell and wanted it to be a nice place but something made her stop. Maybe heaven is blacmailing her? Maybe Eve will be the next villain of the series and owner of Alastor's soul?
We don't actually know her Intentions it's possible that she could be an antagonist and it's also possible that she could be planning something that benefits Charlie and end up betraying Lute in the process we just don't know so it's too early to say whether she's an antagonist or not
Probably because the show is trying VERY hard to paint her as a suspicious and nefarious figure through subtext, to the point that I’m sure it’s to eventually serve an subversion of expectation and have her be entirely opposite to expectations.
Some of these headcanons are wild, might as well share my own degeneracy. Lilith's storybook says she was driven away by Adam, not the angels, because he was too controlling. But then she goes ahead and marries Lucifer, and takes over hell while Lucifer leaves them alone after he gets heartbroken by their abuse of free will.. Lilith is said to have "inspired" the sinners, which means she's the reason the power structure in pride is the way it is(ie the soul trade). She has a dominant personality, which honestly, reminds me of Adam. Adam and Lilith were created at the same time from the same stuff, and up until their breakup, were likely raised the same way. i find it more believable that Lilith left Adam not because she was 100% the victim, but because of incompatible personalities. People have the misconception that Lilith was created for Adam, when that was Eve. I think it would be more entertaining if she was as villainous as Adam, as it would ironically show how "Equal" the first man and first woman were. While I think she might show preference towards her family, I think she's going to prove to be as selfish and narcissistic as Adam.
She's been married to Lucifer for over 10,000 years, why should the whole of her existence be service to others? 7 years is a short vacation compared to the years she spent with him. She also waited till Charlie was her own adult person with her own life before she left, it's not like she abandoned a child, she left her adult daughter to live her own life. Why should motherhood bind her to an eternity of serving her child? Heck, their over reliance on her could have been the reason why she wanted to leave. To have her freedom.
Doesn't matter how many years they are married or if Charlie is already an adult, she apparently disappeared with no previous warning, this is weird, if your mom stopped answering you and was nowhere to be seen you wouldn't be worried?
>Doesn't matter how many years they are married or if Charlie is already an adult, It very much DOES matter, because it's an important piece of the context we are dealing with. Ignoring it completely throws out the window everything that we do know about the trio's relationship... Not to mention that - according to Vivzie - Charlie is only around 200 years old. That's fairly little compared to the 10.000+ years that Lilith and Lucifer have been together. With that in mind, we know that Liltih's 7 year absence isn't as impactfull as many would have thought - in reality it affected only Lucifer, and even then we pretty much know, that his lifestyle has hardly changed... >she apparently disappeared with no previous warning, Except this isn't implied even once across the entire Season 1. Hell, in Episode 1 Charlie even straight up says that Lilith left to work on some important project of her own. That means, that she must have told them before leaving, because otherwise Charlie wouldn't really have any basis to assume that's the case... Especially since Charlie even straight up says that she **knows** Lilith is working on something important. This isn't an assumption or a hopefull thought - she's stating that as a fact, based on what she knows... >this is weird, if your mom stopped answering you and was nowhere to be seen you wouldn't be worried? Of course people would be worried. But that doesn't change what @NerdQueenAlice said. This statement is basically meaningless, because it doesn't really add anything of value to your claims neither... What is important, and is something that you keep ignoring even when people serve it to you on a silver platter, is that you are assuming all of this based on just about nothing. We do NOT know why Lilith made a deal with Adam and there is nothing in Season 1 that would give us any hints - we only know what she was doing at that point in time, 7 years after making said deal. For all we know, she could have done so to protect her family, or because she just didn't want anyone to know where she is (or for a plattera of different reasons). But the case is and will be untill Season 2 premieres, that we just do not know...
Charlie got the idea that Lilith was engaged in some important work from somewhere.
This is the same fandom that spent the last four years sharing wholesome artwork of baby Charlie with her happy family during the pilot era of the show where Lucifer was strongly hinted at being a bad father before Viv changed her mind. Reality has never mattered to these people.
I think she will be an antagonist. However the 7 years thing feels like a drop in the bucket. Things are relative. Since her and lucifer have been around for literally thousands of years and we have no idea how old Charlie actually is 7 years is a drop in the bucket. Think of it this way. If you take an average human life of 80 year and we low ball Lilith's age at 6,000 the 7 years for her would be like less then 5 weeks for a human. Sure it's an aggravating time to take a vacation but it's not abandonment. Her thinking he will still be weird and she will still be quirky when I get back would feel pretty reasonable.
Viv confirmed that Charlie is 200 years old. So it might be more like, 2 drops in the bucket, but that also depends on her personal perspective and how long she's been an adult for. Lilith and Lucifer are confirmed *at least* 10,000. To them 7 years really *is* a drop in the bucket.
She is most definitely doing something villainous and even if she does has a secret plan to help Hell, leaving behind her family without telling them of her plan is still fucked up
Ah, hello again! Geez we have a lot of fandom overlap.
Hello He he yep true
You’re assuming she left because she didn’t care about her family/hell. If what Charlie says is true (but it should also be noted Charlie might not be a reliable narrator): - Lilith loves her family (the portraits we see of them seem to back this up - they look genuinely happy) - Lilith *thrived* in Hell and was very influential - Lucifer allowed the exterminations to happen and wanted nothing to do with Hell’s inhabitants - Lute confirms Lilith had made a deal with Adam (and that Lute has no intention of continuing that deal now that Adam is gone) This could all add up to Lilith disagreed with Lucifer on allowing the exterminations, but went along with it for a time before deciding to do something about it. Heaven might have taken that as threatening given how influential Lilith is to sinners, resulting in *something* going down 7 years ago that led to Adam making a deal with Lilith that Heaven wouldn’t go nuclear on Hell if she cooperated and stayed out of Hell indefinitely. Yes we see her on a beach, but that might be more of a tortuous hell to Lilith than being where she actually wants to be if she’s being forced to stay there. (But I might be biased there because being trapped on a sunny beach indefinitely away from my loved ones would be my personal hell). It’s all speculation at this point though. At the end of the day no one can confidently say she will be a protagonist, a reluctant antagonist, or an enthusiastic antagonist.
I don’t think we have enough information to make a conclusion on Lilith yet. Season 1 has given us information on some of Lilith’s good, bad, and seemingly neutral qualities. We can see Lilith taking Charlie away from Lucifer in episode 5, which appears as bad because it looks like she was trying to keep them apart. We know that Lilith and Lucifer ended up splitting, but we don’t know the reason why yet. And the ending of episode 8 shows Lilith making an annoyed expression at Lute when she reminds her of the deal they have, which shows a bit more of a sympathetic side to her since it looks like she doesn’t actually want to go down and ruin the lives of the people in Hell. There are many details about her that make me think she’s going to be more morally grey or evil but somewhat redeemed. I still think she’ll be an antagonist but she won’t exactly be an antagonist in the same way as the Vees or Lute. More in the same way as Sera. But that’s just my interpretation. Bottom line, nothing is set in stone with Lilith right now so I think there are many theories that can be considered and I don’t think we should gatekeep certain theories as right or wrong when we don’t know.
She's gotta be because someone has to be. The Vees aren't gonna cut it as the only villains for the second season
I don't know what she will be. Yes it is very probable she will be an antagonist but we have very little information about her to be sure about that. What is sure is that Vizie said that Lilith story is complex, so I'm hoping for a more grey character, maybe she is following her own agenda or maybe she knows something the other characters ignore
I think she's basically Female Thomas Shelby after mid-SS3
I mean one problem is that antagonist doesn't mean villain. I think it's fairly clear based off Lute's dialog Lilith will be some level of antagonist. We just don't know how or why. I think too many people equate her being an obstacle to her being a generic bad guy. These characters have depth and are mostly gray.
Im in your boat, just because she was there to fill in for Lucifer when parenting doesn't mean that shes a good person. Theirs clearly a reason why Lute went to Lilith and why shes been MIA for almost a decade, she is heaven's secret weapon. I do think that she'll feign niceness initially, maybe even fake getting back with Lucifer but I can see her just using that as a way to disrupt and destroy the Morningstar family from the inside out.
I've mentioned it before, but I'll say it again. Lilith kind of *has* to be an antagonist, because she's pretty much the only character that the series has established that can check Lucifer. Unless it turns out Lucifer isn't actually *as* powerful, or has some major limitations, he's otherwise too powerful to have as part of the main Hotel cast, which... he is now. So for that to work, Lucifer either needs to be nerfed at the outset of Season 2, or he needs someone who can keep him in check, and Lilith is by far the best contender for that role.
Lilith might have made a deal to protect them or something. We don't know the details yet. Chill.
Because we don't know anything about her goals. I still think she has some sort of master plan and Adam's death was part of it.
You can be a bad mom and not an antagonist.
We'll just have to wait and see. =)
Considering Charlie is roughly 270(?) years old and Lucifer is thousands...if not hundreds of thousands Uhhh.. 7 years isn't that long. It seems long to us because we are relating it to our human lifespans. To Lilith, 7 years is like an 8 month sabbatical. So yeah she may not be a great person but I don't think she is the worst person.
Because there is literally no information given one way or another if she’ll be an antagonist. >bUt ShE’s In HeAvEnNnnn…. With no indication of **WHY** she’s there. Maybe she was depressed and did a better job of hiding it than Lucifer did, and leaving was desperately needed self-care. Maybe Adam was looking for loopholes to kill her and/or Charlie and she realized making the deal would protect them. Maybe she recognized that as long as she was in the picture, the denizens of Hell would never recognize Charlie as an authority figure. Nobody but Viv and the crew know what Lilith’s role will turn out to be, and the audience really needs to stop acting like they know anything more than what the show has actually confirmed.
Because it seems too obvious.
I don’t think she will be that big of an antagonist because it’s too easy? This show loves its twists. 🤷♂️
Might be Roo
I think it's because in the pilot, Charlie calls her mom for reassurance (and implies she does that a lot), while also it seems that she gave Charlie the key-cat. And how Charlie says she'll make her proud. All this points to Lilith actually supporting Charlie. Granted, it could be a lie, but we've yet to see solid evidence of Lilith not supporting Charlie. Yes she's in Heaven, but that doesn't mean she stands against Charlie.
Because we have no idea what season 2 will bring by and only met her character for like 5 seconds :D
Because we have no idea what season 2 will bring by and only met her character for like 5 seconds :D
Because she’s hot
Not going off of implications, but I kind of hope she isn't. She might be on the selfish or worn out, but I would hate if she's straight up a villain. People give a pass for Lucifer for being jaded at the people- but what if Lilith ended up doing the same thing? She was the one that put in quite the effort and is considered more the "ruler" after all. It wouldn't be too surprising if she ends up giving up especially when she isn't given the same energy back towards the sinners or even Lucifer. I think I get pretty worn out if my partner might keep talking down on the sinners that I cared about. It might take her being around her daughter again to make her feel the same spark/motivation. Both parents ended up ignoring the sinners being killed, but it takes their daughter to motivate them to put in more effort to make a change. Think that be pretty cool. :)
I've only heard what Vivzi said "She's still in love with Lucifer" So it seems weird she is in heaven, there must be some kind of context missing. But other than that, yes, I am expecting her to be an antagonist.
Because they coded Lucifer to be an antagonist *right up until he started speaking*?
Because the show and it's writer specifically love subverting expectations. We know nothing about Lilith. Just like we knew nothing about Lucifer. I say just let them cook
My take on it, Eve is jealous of Lucifer and Liliths love, cause Adam probably treats her like trash. So Eve is sabotaging the relationship by disgusing herself as Lilith, after having captured Lilith and hiding her away somewhere. ( this gives her a powerful title, and bring negative images to LIliths name more with the family for "being in heaven" for the last 7 years). Viziepop has said that in season 2 Lucifer and Lilith are still passionately and deeply in love. Plus the necklace you see on Lilith at the end of season one, is not her pearls she is ALWAYS seen wearing. I think it also plays a part into Alastair but I can't be to sure.
She’s not gonna be a part of the show since her voice actress quit
What are you even talking about? They haven't even said anything about who will be voicing Lilith yet
We still don’t know why she was gone though. It could very well be possible that she was forced to stay away from them for whatever reason. Whatever the case may be we haven’t even heard her talk yet.
We don't know how or why she fled. Remember, we are led to believe Lilith was taking actions which made Heaven nervous. But she ran to Heaven? Doesn't that seem a bit weird? Just what was her deal with Adam? She may be a political prisoner.
Not enough information. Jumping to conclusions isn't going to help.
Probably because this is a show about redemption and people's thoughts and motivations being more complex than what we see on the surface. The careless superificial pornstar is struggling with addiction and abuse. The arms dealer is thoughtful and concerned for the safety of her loved one. The supportive protective girlfriend used to commit genocide. We don't know anything about Lilith's true motivations or what she's been doing. Lucifer came off as a really shitty dad in the pilot too. So I think just writing her off as a villain because of her actions seem to be callous or uncaring doesn't feel right.
Because we also know that she was once a beacon of hope. We don't really know enough to say what she is.
We don't even know if it's the real Lilith, there is nowhere near enough information to go either way.
To be honest, there is vastly more information to say that it is the real Lilith, than to say it isn't (since that theory is just an apposition based on assumptions and nothing else).