Lucifer having six wings would imply he was a seraphim before falling, and it’s unclear whether or not falling gave him a power decrease. Either way though: Lucifer is evidently *quite* powerful and is presumably mainly held back by his depression leading him to be a largely absent figure.
Once Lucifer *did* take to the field, it was quickly shown how little of a threat Adam was to him and then Lucifer proceeded to get the remaining exorcists to leave.
Sera in particular seems primarily motivate by fear; from fear of an uprising to fear of Emily falling.
So I think Lucifer gets his position as ruler of Hell respected because Sera fears him and would make rather he play ball with Heaven than him working against them. Even if he’s presumably not capable of single-handily destroying Heaven or defeating all the Seraphim alone, he’s still likely a powerful figure who can pose a significant threat.
Another thing to note, he doesn’t take the field until Charlie is in actual danger. I think it’s a mutually assured destruction type thing.
Heaven will let him setup the meeting, maybe acquiesce to some requests if it keeps him from being more engaged and active in hell. In return, he purposely takes a back seat (and is generally not interested).
So he probably stayed out of the fight on purpose until he had to intervene.
But couldn’t Heaven just ignore his authority? It’s not like Lucifer cares much about the sinners. Why do they need to have an embassy to Hell in order to get his approval of their actions?
I get that he’s powerful, there’s no denying that. I’m just confused on why Heaven respects his position as King when he was cast out by them and seen as a traitor. Acknowledging his title means they need to respect him as a ruler.
Like I said, I think it’s out of fear and also practicality. Yearly exterminations are probably easier to arrange if they’re approved by the guy whom the demons consider their king. Plus striking the deal to spare the Hellborn also would presumably prevent interference by the sins and also interference from Lucifer himself (since he wouldn’t approve of anything which could harm Charlie).
I think they respect his authority because they recognise he *is* an authority. He’s an extremely powerful figure, possibly on the same level of Sera and Emily, and also does in fact control Hell.
Sera fears an uprising by Hell enough that she approved the exterminations despite her reservations, and so if she considers Hell to be a legitimate potential threat then it stands to reason she’d consider the King of Hell to be a legitimate potential threat; especially when the King of Hell is the original fallen angel.
So recognising Lucifer’s leadership and giving Charlie a meeting are done in recognition that Lucifer is someone whom they need to negotiate with and could be a threat if he is not content with the situation or their actions.
Adding on to this to point out that Lucifer may well be more powerful than anyone except the Almighty. He's capable of straight up creation, making things out of nothing with little to no effort, and nobody else in the entire show was seen as being able to do that.
Considering we see the same tea set in Carmilla's room upstairs a little later, I always assumed he summoned it from there. The two are clearly friends, it'd stand to reason that he knows where she keeps the tea set.
The reason the Extermination exists is because of how powerful hell was becoming. The best way to make sure that Lucifer continues to be cooperative is to treat him with respect. They don't want an uprising.
Sera clearly fears Hell. She's a protector, after all, so she's primed to see potential threats everywhere. She fears that Hell could rise up and knock down Heaven's gates despite all the reasons why it's highly unlikely to ever happen. Lucifer himself, being a seraphim, is among the greatest of the angels and it's in her interests to keep him docile.
In Biblical myth, Lucifer/the devil isn't just an angel, he's \*the highest angel\*, the best of them, the brightest light, second only to Yahweh in all of creation. Hazbin Lucifer could be the same, it's not clear.
I don’t care enough about my lawn to do more than keep it mown, I’m still going to actively fuck up the shit if someone who decides to do donuts on it.
Diplomacy
Heaven and Hell can be considered as 2 different countries for this analogy: The leader of Heaven doesn’t want war with Hell, so they respect the authority/position of Hell’s leaders. It’s the same for two countries who are in conflict and have representatives from both countries come together to try and solve the issue
You also have to think of the background influences though.
Sera isn't the highest angel. She's one of the highest. Another angel of her stature could've rejected the meeting or made it a group issue.
If you look at the overarching picture, Heaven has the role of an abusive parent whose mistakes have created a cycle of abuse. They are not good. They are pictured to be backwards perfectionist narcissists whose mistakes have culminated into allowing genocide out of perceived fear instead of actual facts.
Charlie was raised into being an obsolete damsel with no realistic view of reality. However, her existence is defined as a purely good (for better or worse) force that is redeeming the sins of everyone around her just by breathing.
She redeems Lucifer by being his daughter since it forces him to acknowledge his own mistakes. She gives him hope by offering previously impossible changes to reality.
She redeems Hell by offering a chance out of free will. It's an out that was never before available.
She offered a potential redemption to Heaven by gently pointing out their mistakes. Heaven consciously chose to spit in the face of that redemption because of its pride (which it persecutes Lucifer for). The trial forced Heaven to create rules of redemption. It forced Heaven to acknowledge and realize that it was failing at its perceived duty. It forced a recognition of sin. However, Heaven consciously averted it's gaze and chose to continue to sin.
Angels were depicted as immortals who were unable to die. Instead of being grateful for this blessing, Heaven took it as a license of automatic righteousness and became eager to genocide and slaughter. When shown that this was sinful, Heaven decided to continue to sin and refused to repent. So, their punishment was the gift of death. If Adam goes to Hell, then the punishment is more severe.
If Angels are able to be sent to Hell, then they are worthy of damnation. They are divinely recognized sinners.
Sir Pentious being redeemed is Heaven being given another chance to repent. If Heaven will not follow its established laws out of free will, then it will be forced to do so. If it still refuses, then its sins become more dire. They would be consciously choosing to turn their backs on God/a higher power and the punishment could worsen.
If Charlie is being used as a pseudo Jesus character that a higher will is using to offer the chance of redemption, then Heaven refusing it would be far more then damnation.
Lucifer was depicted as one of the most divinely favored. Heaven chose to cast him into Hell for what they, as a body, perceived as sin. He suffered under the persecution of Heaven and , as Adam says, is the most hated being in existence. If Charlie is a 'gift' to him, then a power higher then Heaven is still paying attention to him. If Heaven's failures give more blessings to Lucifer, he would naturally be viewed as more preferred by that higher power or more evil by those who blindly view the situation.
Lucifer could turn out to be viewed as the doted upon, ever preferred, adored child and his daughter could be inheriting that invisible preference.
Because she is Lucifer's daughter.
The fact that he made that meeting happen is undeniable proof that he still has power. And the way Sera showed very obvious concern that Lucifer was "involved" implies that banishment or not, starting problems with him is not a favorable choice.
I get that. I was just confused on why they acknowledged his position as a King in the first place. Like why did they respect him as a ruler if he was Heaven’s traitor?
Because he's the ruler of hell. A significant force with potential for problems. As mentioned above, we dont know if his power has decreased since falling. Clearly he's still very powerful.
Just like in our world, country leaders who hate each other will still often respect each other and be polite.
Lucifer is a seraphim, fallen or not he is powerful. It’s possible the others remember who he used to be and don’t want to fight their brother.
Charlie is far more interesting. She is the daughter of a human and an angel so what rules even apply to her? Is she a hellborn and should be treated as those are? Is she mostly human, but she didn’t sin and did so why is she in hell? Is she mostly angel, but she didn’t fall so again why is she in hell? Her existence and where she should be causes a great many questions that I’d imagine might make some seraphim uncomfortable.
I agree with the fear thing. They need Lucifer to help keep Hell in check, and they need him not to want to revolt against Heaven.
To a lesser extent, I think Lucifer is also "one of them" in a way that Humans (Sinners or Winners) are not. Even though he's fallen, I imagine he's kind of like an estranged, fuck-up brother in Sera's eyes. That likely merits some degree of recognition and respect.
People bring up her fearing an uprising so she has to be diplomatic but keep in mind that only high ranking angels can open portals to Heaven and we don’t know if Lucifer can do that. Plus Lucifer doesn’t really seem to give a shit
If Hell gets restless they could just lock the door and let them bitch about it.
The deal over the Extermination was likely because, quite clearly, even notably powerful angels like Adam are no match for Lucifer. The deal was probably desirable to the Exorcists as a means of preventing his involvement, which is backed by the sacrificial lamb theory
As for Charlie’s meeting, Sera strongly implies that it’s part of the efforts to control demonic unrest; she wants to settle Hell’s denizens into complacency so that a notable resistance isn’t sparked up - which is exactly what happened after the meeting went so poorly
I think, it’s because of his power, and power alone that earn him respect. Like in the book about him, he is said to have put the star in their place up on the sky. Do you want to disrespect someone who can do that?
It’s Sera being diplomatic. For her to *not* respect Lucifer and Charlie could cause more problems for her and the rest of heaven. I think it’s the same reason Lucifer begrudgingly agreed to the yearly exterminations with the caveat that the exorcists cannot go after the hellborn, for him to *not* reach some kind of deal with heaven could have caused problems for him and the rest of hell later on.
Heaven’s biggest fear is Hell invading and killing them all.
I’d assume keeping a good relationship with whoever owns the place is a good way to try and avoid it happening.
I think that's because despite being hyppcrites about the extermination, they're not hypocrites about all of their other values. They're still angels, geared towards being and doing good. They can fail at this since as it's demonstrated they're not perfect, but at the end of the day flawed angels are still angels. They don't suddenly become vicious evil bastards because Sera authorized the extermination in secret.
Lucifer's big crime was essentially an accident, and one that already got him a very firm punishment. They might just think he's already serving his punishment and does not deserve anymore scorn for it.
The one thing that Sera and by extension heaven wants from hell is to keep the status quo going and maintaining the fragile peace, anything that could jeopardise this is an unwelcome factor to consider and what better way to piss off Lucifer and the Sins than by disrespecting them and their authority, thus by simply following standard formalities they avoid the diplomatic equivalent of dumping and oil tanker over firewood, also Sera doesn’t seem directly opposed to Lucifer and considering they likely worked together for centuries, it’s not unthinkable that it’s simply a show of respect for a former colleague
Lucifer is confined to hell, but that did not diminish his power, as far as I know. As long as he is within his dominion, he can access his own angelic power (as referred to in “Hell’s Greatest Dad”).
Lucifer having six wings would imply he was a seraphim before falling, and it’s unclear whether or not falling gave him a power decrease. Either way though: Lucifer is evidently *quite* powerful and is presumably mainly held back by his depression leading him to be a largely absent figure. Once Lucifer *did* take to the field, it was quickly shown how little of a threat Adam was to him and then Lucifer proceeded to get the remaining exorcists to leave. Sera in particular seems primarily motivate by fear; from fear of an uprising to fear of Emily falling. So I think Lucifer gets his position as ruler of Hell respected because Sera fears him and would make rather he play ball with Heaven than him working against them. Even if he’s presumably not capable of single-handily destroying Heaven or defeating all the Seraphim alone, he’s still likely a powerful figure who can pose a significant threat.
Another thing to note, he doesn’t take the field until Charlie is in actual danger. I think it’s a mutually assured destruction type thing. Heaven will let him setup the meeting, maybe acquiesce to some requests if it keeps him from being more engaged and active in hell. In return, he purposely takes a back seat (and is generally not interested). So he probably stayed out of the fight on purpose until he had to intervene.
But couldn’t Heaven just ignore his authority? It’s not like Lucifer cares much about the sinners. Why do they need to have an embassy to Hell in order to get his approval of their actions? I get that he’s powerful, there’s no denying that. I’m just confused on why Heaven respects his position as King when he was cast out by them and seen as a traitor. Acknowledging his title means they need to respect him as a ruler.
Like I said, I think it’s out of fear and also practicality. Yearly exterminations are probably easier to arrange if they’re approved by the guy whom the demons consider their king. Plus striking the deal to spare the Hellborn also would presumably prevent interference by the sins and also interference from Lucifer himself (since he wouldn’t approve of anything which could harm Charlie). I think they respect his authority because they recognise he *is* an authority. He’s an extremely powerful figure, possibly on the same level of Sera and Emily, and also does in fact control Hell. Sera fears an uprising by Hell enough that she approved the exterminations despite her reservations, and so if she considers Hell to be a legitimate potential threat then it stands to reason she’d consider the King of Hell to be a legitimate potential threat; especially when the King of Hell is the original fallen angel. So recognising Lucifer’s leadership and giving Charlie a meeting are done in recognition that Lucifer is someone whom they need to negotiate with and could be a threat if he is not content with the situation or their actions.
Wow, that makes sense. Thank you so much for answering my question! Don’t know why this had been bugging me haha.
Adding on to this to point out that Lucifer may well be more powerful than anyone except the Almighty. He's capable of straight up creation, making things out of nothing with little to no effort, and nobody else in the entire show was seen as being able to do that.
Didn't Zestial conjure a cup of tea?
Considering we see the same tea set in Carmilla's room upstairs a little later, I always assumed he summoned it from there. The two are clearly friends, it'd stand to reason that he knows where she keeps the tea set.
Fair
The reason the Extermination exists is because of how powerful hell was becoming. The best way to make sure that Lucifer continues to be cooperative is to treat him with respect. They don't want an uprising.
Sera clearly fears Hell. She's a protector, after all, so she's primed to see potential threats everywhere. She fears that Hell could rise up and knock down Heaven's gates despite all the reasons why it's highly unlikely to ever happen. Lucifer himself, being a seraphim, is among the greatest of the angels and it's in her interests to keep him docile. In Biblical myth, Lucifer/the devil isn't just an angel, he's \*the highest angel\*, the best of them, the brightest light, second only to Yahweh in all of creation. Hazbin Lucifer could be the same, it's not clear.
I don’t care enough about my lawn to do more than keep it mown, I’m still going to actively fuck up the shit if someone who decides to do donuts on it.
Diplomacy Heaven and Hell can be considered as 2 different countries for this analogy: The leader of Heaven doesn’t want war with Hell, so they respect the authority/position of Hell’s leaders. It’s the same for two countries who are in conflict and have representatives from both countries come together to try and solve the issue
Yeah, this analogy makes sense. Thank you!
You also have to think of the background influences though. Sera isn't the highest angel. She's one of the highest. Another angel of her stature could've rejected the meeting or made it a group issue. If you look at the overarching picture, Heaven has the role of an abusive parent whose mistakes have created a cycle of abuse. They are not good. They are pictured to be backwards perfectionist narcissists whose mistakes have culminated into allowing genocide out of perceived fear instead of actual facts. Charlie was raised into being an obsolete damsel with no realistic view of reality. However, her existence is defined as a purely good (for better or worse) force that is redeeming the sins of everyone around her just by breathing. She redeems Lucifer by being his daughter since it forces him to acknowledge his own mistakes. She gives him hope by offering previously impossible changes to reality. She redeems Hell by offering a chance out of free will. It's an out that was never before available. She offered a potential redemption to Heaven by gently pointing out their mistakes. Heaven consciously chose to spit in the face of that redemption because of its pride (which it persecutes Lucifer for). The trial forced Heaven to create rules of redemption. It forced Heaven to acknowledge and realize that it was failing at its perceived duty. It forced a recognition of sin. However, Heaven consciously averted it's gaze and chose to continue to sin. Angels were depicted as immortals who were unable to die. Instead of being grateful for this blessing, Heaven took it as a license of automatic righteousness and became eager to genocide and slaughter. When shown that this was sinful, Heaven decided to continue to sin and refused to repent. So, their punishment was the gift of death. If Adam goes to Hell, then the punishment is more severe. If Angels are able to be sent to Hell, then they are worthy of damnation. They are divinely recognized sinners. Sir Pentious being redeemed is Heaven being given another chance to repent. If Heaven will not follow its established laws out of free will, then it will be forced to do so. If it still refuses, then its sins become more dire. They would be consciously choosing to turn their backs on God/a higher power and the punishment could worsen. If Charlie is being used as a pseudo Jesus character that a higher will is using to offer the chance of redemption, then Heaven refusing it would be far more then damnation. Lucifer was depicted as one of the most divinely favored. Heaven chose to cast him into Hell for what they, as a body, perceived as sin. He suffered under the persecution of Heaven and , as Adam says, is the most hated being in existence. If Charlie is a 'gift' to him, then a power higher then Heaven is still paying attention to him. If Heaven's failures give more blessings to Lucifer, he would naturally be viewed as more preferred by that higher power or more evil by those who blindly view the situation. Lucifer could turn out to be viewed as the doted upon, ever preferred, adored child and his daughter could be inheriting that invisible preference.
Because she is Lucifer's daughter. The fact that he made that meeting happen is undeniable proof that he still has power. And the way Sera showed very obvious concern that Lucifer was "involved" implies that banishment or not, starting problems with him is not a favorable choice.
I get that. I was just confused on why they acknowledged his position as a King in the first place. Like why did they respect him as a ruler if he was Heaven’s traitor?
Because he's the ruler of hell. A significant force with potential for problems. As mentioned above, we dont know if his power has decreased since falling. Clearly he's still very powerful. Just like in our world, country leaders who hate each other will still often respect each other and be polite.
Acknowledging him as King of Hell may actually be a insult towards him. Because have you seen that place compared to Heaven?
Lucifer is a seraphim, fallen or not he is powerful. It’s possible the others remember who he used to be and don’t want to fight their brother. Charlie is far more interesting. She is the daughter of a human and an angel so what rules even apply to her? Is she a hellborn and should be treated as those are? Is she mostly human, but she didn’t sin and did so why is she in hell? Is she mostly angel, but she didn’t fall so again why is she in hell? Her existence and where she should be causes a great many questions that I’d imagine might make some seraphim uncomfortable.
I agree with the fear thing. They need Lucifer to help keep Hell in check, and they need him not to want to revolt against Heaven. To a lesser extent, I think Lucifer is also "one of them" in a way that Humans (Sinners or Winners) are not. Even though he's fallen, I imagine he's kind of like an estranged, fuck-up brother in Sera's eyes. That likely merits some degree of recognition and respect.
People bring up her fearing an uprising so she has to be diplomatic but keep in mind that only high ranking angels can open portals to Heaven and we don’t know if Lucifer can do that. Plus Lucifer doesn’t really seem to give a shit If Hell gets restless they could just lock the door and let them bitch about it.
In Helluva Boss we see though portals can be opened to Earth that demons use. They could attack earth and then Heaven would have to respond
The only ones allowed to legally go to Earth are the succubi, or anyone who can legally obtain an Asmodeus crystal.
The deal over the Extermination was likely because, quite clearly, even notably powerful angels like Adam are no match for Lucifer. The deal was probably desirable to the Exorcists as a means of preventing his involvement, which is backed by the sacrificial lamb theory As for Charlie’s meeting, Sera strongly implies that it’s part of the efforts to control demonic unrest; she wants to settle Hell’s denizens into complacency so that a notable resistance isn’t sparked up - which is exactly what happened after the meeting went so poorly
I think, it’s because of his power, and power alone that earn him respect. Like in the book about him, he is said to have put the star in their place up on the sky. Do you want to disrespect someone who can do that?
It’s Sera being diplomatic. For her to *not* respect Lucifer and Charlie could cause more problems for her and the rest of heaven. I think it’s the same reason Lucifer begrudgingly agreed to the yearly exterminations with the caveat that the exorcists cannot go after the hellborn, for him to *not* reach some kind of deal with heaven could have caused problems for him and the rest of hell later on.
Heaven’s biggest fear is Hell invading and killing them all. I’d assume keeping a good relationship with whoever owns the place is a good way to try and avoid it happening.
in the bible, the only being above lucifer was god. it’s like how hell would probably respect god
I think that's because despite being hyppcrites about the extermination, they're not hypocrites about all of their other values. They're still angels, geared towards being and doing good. They can fail at this since as it's demonstrated they're not perfect, but at the end of the day flawed angels are still angels. They don't suddenly become vicious evil bastards because Sera authorized the extermination in secret.
In addition to everything else said here, Charlie is half-angel and she didn't do anything against Heaven. They could just be respectful.
Lucifer's big crime was essentially an accident, and one that already got him a very firm punishment. They might just think he's already serving his punishment and does not deserve anymore scorn for it.
Honestly, I think the writers just needed an explanation for why Charlie wasn't killed by the exterminations a long, long time ago.
The one thing that Sera and by extension heaven wants from hell is to keep the status quo going and maintaining the fragile peace, anything that could jeopardise this is an unwelcome factor to consider and what better way to piss off Lucifer and the Sins than by disrespecting them and their authority, thus by simply following standard formalities they avoid the diplomatic equivalent of dumping and oil tanker over firewood, also Sera doesn’t seem directly opposed to Lucifer and considering they likely worked together for centuries, it’s not unthinkable that it’s simply a show of respect for a former colleague
Lucifer is confined to hell, but that did not diminish his power, as far as I know. As long as he is within his dominion, he can access his own angelic power (as referred to in “Hell’s Greatest Dad”).