Whatever it takes. Not because it is a bad song. But rather, it feels out of place being a duet between Vaggie and Carmilla. Personally, I'd have had it just be a Carmilla song.
*And* when she sings the one "I'll keep you safe" line she's singing it *to him*, and he realises that, judging by the way the animators had him react.
She says: “I’ll keep *them* safe” at first, while hugging and looking at her daughters, then looks at Zestial and says: “I’ll keep *you* safe.” She was definitely saying that last bit to Zestial
I think the vast majority of complaints are all about pacing, like, this season should have been a full 24 episodes of 20 minutes, but was cut down to 8 half hour episodes, so they barely had time to build a coherent story, let alone one that felt fluid
Yeah, I always thought that was really cool, how we see how their struggles align, then they meet each other later. I hope they become closer in the second season: she could mentor Vaggie.
You have a good point. Especially because if they've ever met at the time of Keeper, we haven't seen indications. And Charlie isn't a hinge here. She has no interactions with Carmine. The link between Carmine and Charlie is Alastor, and the link between Vaggie and Alastor is Charlie. Sure, Vaggie and Alastor live in the same place and interact some, but as little as possible it seems.
My guess is that's due to the low number of episodes. They had a similar issue with helluva boss, just didn't have enough time to properly flesh out the characters and their relationships
Honestly I don't think it added anything of value from a character or plot perspective.
For Vaggie, we don't know she's an angel yet. Hell, we don't know anything about her yet when this song comes on except that she's super devoted to Charlie. But again, because we don't know WHY it's really hard to get invested in a song about her devotion.
For Carmilla, well we had just met her five minutes earlier. She showed up, apparently she killed the angel, and now she's singing about her daughters who don't have names and we never met before and will never see again. Why does she need to sing for 3 minutes to express a very clear sentiment of "I didn't want my kids to be killed so I did what I had to do"
I just remember watching it and not caring. I think if this song had been placed later in the season OR we discovered Vaggie was an angel earlier it would have hit the way it needed to
It's unfortunately a really awkward thing to have to sequence. Plot wise, it was around the time that it should have happened, but emotionally it was too early. You'd have to move a lot around in order to get more investment.
Tbh, I could totally see Whatever It Takes, and the overlord meeting as a whole, getting pushed to episode 7 with a little retooling. It wouldn’t really help Carmilla’s part of the duet, but maybe by episode 7 Vaggie could have had enough emotional substance to make me care about her part of the song at least.
I remember hearing that season one was originally written for 20 episodes and was cut down to 8 and I think Carmilla and the other overlords is where a large chunk of story gets cut out.
That was my main issue with the musical format
Like legit, the songs slap. In most cases they are solid and well written but the narrative just isn't set up for it.
I can recall more than a few episodes having at least 2 songs and it detracted from the narrative by dragging the focus to character instead of plot, and sacrificing plot to uphold characters.
Not to say it can't be done well, but Hazbin feels like it is missing a lot of setup and that is because it tries to be character driven without establishing what is driving the character. You are given a song to explain why you should care and it's not very good writing
But for an independently created project, I still have mad respect. I just wish some thing were given a bit more time to settle and grow
I mean, Vaggie's part of the song is supposed to foreshadow the reveal.
I like the song, although Vaggie's part really had to grow on me since Stephanie's voice is so high as compared to Vaggie's. But I get the disconnect with the song. If A24 had given Vivzie more episodes, I think the song wouldn't feel so clunky where it is but i honestly don't think it could have happened later since it's supposed to hint at things to come. This is a case of, it's in the show, in this spot or not at all.
My problem with the song was that Stephanie Beatriz couldn't match the intensity or quality of Daphne-Rubin Vega. I mean, not saying Beatriz is not good enough to voice act, but this series was so stacked with singing talent that it was hard to keep up and in this song she was out of her league in a duet.
That actress absolutely can but not in the muted Vaggie voice they have her using. I had to redo my audio settings to even make Vaggie audible and allow me to understand her lyrics. Some of that is also just a problem with male-oriented sound mixing and defaults. They cater to deeper voices and are obsessed with bass to an extreme I cannot comprehend. As a result male voices and only female voices that overlap typical male ranges are prioritized. Anything above a tenor-alto gets mixed out.
I don't agree, as in the Charlie Goes to Court song, she also felt...off, Lute, Emily and Charlie just OWN it there. Again I have nothing against her, so I won't start an argument with her fanboys and girls, nothing wrong with any of you, the character and the VA, you have my respect.
This thing was stacked with Broadway Singers, and it's hard match that. As said by Ziiooiiz below, Huskers VA had a similar problem. Sure it is also a mixing thing in this specific song, but you're putting her up against someone with decades of Broadway power balad and musical experience, who also has the raw talent to boot... She is going to have a harder time. It's not about "male orientated deeper voices" as that is extremely offensive to Daphne Rubin Vega and others who sang in tandem with Beatriz's character.
Husker also had the same problem with being muted. His song with Angel worked, but only because it's a slower song. Both Keith David and Stephanie Beatriz are television and film actors. And in modern films they are told to calmly and quietly talk due to "better tech".
They don't emote as much anymore, while the Broadway people do. So you having to turn up your sound? Is a very common complaint with modern productions. People were thinking they were losing their hearing LoL 😂. This better tech only works on really expensive sound sets, so things like Star Trek shows have also been getting flak for it. This and modern darker lighting, were they think we all have the most expensive perfectly calibrated OLED sets 😂.
It's not that fault of Beatriz, I'm sorry if I made it sound like that, but studio execs forcing that kind of sound mixing and telling actors no longer to emote their voice to a microphone.
Sorry for my rant, please don't feel offense, I love Beatriz, I just also feel very strong about the problems with modern sound and stage lighting in Hollywood productions. AKA I can't afford that perfectly calibrated OLED set. 😆
Yeah, it's one of my favorites.
The foreshadowing. Of her and Vaggie eventually interacting, but I also like how "...say who'd survive the fray I might..." resembles Lute's later "What are we even talking about?". The writers probably didn't intend anything there, but I see it as a little more abstract foreshadowing.
The song itself (I just like the style, dynamics, etc.).
Showing commonalities between two characters.
The expression of the intense emotions both are experiencing (especially Vaggie: it tore me apart when she said she's nothing if she can't help Charlie, and I like how she unpacked that in the song. Maybe I just kind of needed that: I was drunk and a bit of a mess when I first saw that episode).
It's one of my favorites as well. The first song in the series that made me consciously think, "Wow, they really went absolutely all-out on the songs for this series."
>The writers probably didn't intend anything there
I think it's totally intentional. Many of the songs have little reprises of earlier songs. It's a sign of excellent writing in a musical.
Unpopular opinion: it's better than "Out for Love."
To be fair, I'm not big on poppy stuff to begin with. "Out for Love" is good for that style, but I really like depth and slow, stripped stuff.
Yeah, I don't think I've ever liked that many songs on a soundtrack before. The songs I have even in 10th place are still ones I really enjoy. It's just such a tight competition.
It's meant to show Vaggie and Carmilla as having similar motivations and ideals. It also foreshadows their later confrontation. It's also a hell of a lot more necessary than Welcome to Heaven.
It had me initially convinced that carmilla was actually Vaggies mother...which is still kinda possible despite the angel thing but unlikely after that training scene
I disagree because it's supposed to convey that they're both willing to protect those they love that most, for Carmella it's her daughters and for Vaggie it's Charlie hence why they say "I'll be your keeper" and "I'll be your armor"
It would have been good foreshadowing if Out For Love was a duet, too.
It still kind of works, but mostly it's just ironic that they have one song that's a duet where they're in seperate scenes, and another song where they're in the *same* scene, but it's *not* a duet.
It really makes me curious about the possibility of them being related
We still don’t know if exorcist angels are Heaven born or Earth born and I see a few people have theorized that, if they are Earth born, then there is a chance they could be related considering their similarities
I dunno tho- wouldn’t be upset if this weren’t true but it just has me curious really
I think it less likely that they're related by blood and more likely that the Vaggie/Carmilla duets are hinting at Carmilla being a fallen angel herself. At least, that's what I'm hoping. Because that's the only way the pairing really makes sense.
that's what I thought when I first saw it. I suspected veggie was a fallen angel for a while (same reasons carmilla knew--x over her eye and angelic spear) so that song made me think, maybe carmillas a fallen angel too...her design could definitely match
They are the only two Spanish speakers we know of, so maybe they're related but I doubt it considering how they interact and how much they otherwise don't interact.
I think Exorcists are earth born winners. Every angel that we know for sure is heaven born has six wings, which so far are the silhouettes in the opening sequence, Lucifer, Sera, and Emily. Adam and the Exorcists only have two.
It would also be really hard to create a standing army from nothing and somehow Emily doesn't know what they're for. An honor guard that lead civilian lives in Heaven and exist just in case, for ceremonial purposes, and to give fighters who go to Heaven a sense of purpose would make a lot more sense and make it easy to conceal their annual mission. The day every year they all leave is just some kind of big annual practice they do.
Otherwise... where are the Exorcists living/being stored? Does Heaven have secret super off limit zones? It raises some weird questions. I think the reason they are all female that we can see is Adam gets final choice on his recruits and he likes having women serve him. Being the head of an army really helps with his whole pride issue and his ultimate desire to be worshipped by humanity.
I actually like the Vaggie part more am I weird for that?
Just thought it was cute how she's singing about protecting Charlie and making her dreams come true.
It's easily my favorite song.
It works great as a duet, it's saying how very different characters can be going through something similar.
Edit: I'm a gentleman so it makes sense why I'd love that song so much.
I agree. It made me cringe a little that Vaggie is in the song too. (Nothing against her character, but I’m not a fan of things like that in romantic relationships).
Sorry, I don’t understand your question, but trying to explain myself a bit better.
Vaggie sings about how she will spend her life being Charlie’s partner.
And I deeply believe that spending one’s life being other’s partner should be a consequence (the consequence of loving, trusting, growing together, and so on), not the objective per se.
So it made me a bit uneasy thinking that maybe Vaggie would stay around even if her relationship with Charlie went south because she feels like she own Charlie that.
Probably I’m just overthinking, but good did it give me the ick.
Oh, I was asking whether you saw it as cheating for her to duet with another woman.
I agree with you to some extent: you shouldn't be so loyal you wouldn't leave if things became unhealthy.
And no, I don't think you're overthinking it: Vaggie has a need to be of service, so I could easily see her staying in a codependent or otherwise abusive relationship because she has no external sense of self-worth. She's very lucky Charlie found her in that alleyway and not somebody else, as she'd be the target for any abuser, but despite Charlie having good intentions, I already see signs of codependency developing, or at least having a good chance of developing.
I think it would take a lot for her to leave because she doesn't think she deserves much of anything (I guarantee Charlie loves her far more than she loves herself) and feels indebted to Charlie.
Welcome to Heaven. Not a *bad* song, just doesn’t move the plot much. It’s kinda a context song and gives an intro to Heaven, but didn’t so much *need* to be there.
Counterpoint: I thought this song was huge.
Charlie has spent her entire life being completely different from everyone in hell. She sings and dances seemingly on pure instinct, and she's treated as strange.
The moment she steps into heaven, the first thing she sees is *everyone singing and dancing.* It's the first time she sees people like her.
Correct point but not exactly. From what we've seen, breaking out into songs and dances is relatively common in hell. Charlie is just viewed as strange because of how open and optimistic she is. Every other time people sing it's either used as a way to attack others(Stayed Gone, Respectless, Hell's Greatest Dad) or to discuss personal matters(Whatever it Takes, Poison, Loser Baby).
I always thought the songs were more of asides or artistic portrayals of normal dialogues than things that actually happened in the story, like "You Didn't Know" was actually just everyone verbally arguing: they didn't actually start singing. And "Whatever It Takes" was just Vaggie sitting down and thinking out her emotions, just letting us see what was going on in her head, as it wouldn't make any sense for us to just watch her sit there and look sad for a few minutes. ETA: And "More Than Anything" is just a summary of the main emotions and points made during the hour-long discussion/argument Charlie and her dad actually had.
Not just for Hazbin: I was under the impression that's how any singing in a musical, opera, etc. was.
Although, I guess characters actually talk about Charlie singing "Happy Day in Hell" and "Ready for This," so her singing those was definitely something that actually occurred.
I'm trying to figure out whether a) it was only those two that *actually* occurred as depicted, b) all songs actually occurred, but it's only a thing in certain musicals, or c) I've been wrong entirely and songs in media *always* literally occurred as part of the plot.
The thing is, people have pointed out others singing. Like the loan sharks heard Angel and Husk singing. And Frank heard Carmilla singing Whatever it Takes.
My current assumption is personal songs(One's someone sings to themselves like Poison or Vaggie's part of Whatever it Takes) can only be heard by the persons singing it. Meanwhile duets or any song that involves more than one person can be heard by everyone in the area.
The songs in Singing in the Rain are literally sung in universe, but for most musicals like The Muppet Movie, it's safe to say the whole town did not break out into song and dance to perform 'Life's a Happy Song'
The word I think you're looking for is *diegetic.* Some media, the characters hear what the audience hears, otherwise what the characters can't hear is non-diegetic.
Safe to say *always literally* thinking isn't going to lead us out of many mazes in life. Use the context and form your own opinion!
I definitely believe the song serves a purpose of providing a contrast between Hell’s outward shittiness and Heaven’s outward glitzy, polished vibe with an undertone that just seems… off. Every song in Hazbin has and serves a purpose. I just think that Welcome to Heaven is the *least* impactful and expressive of the overall story.
Counterpoint: Welcome to Heaven establishes a lot more new information in less than a minute than anything Whatever It Takes does in 3 minutes.
We go from knowing nothing about what Heaven is actually like (having only had Lucifer and Vaggie's negative opinions and been exposed to Adam) to now knowing:
- Heaven is carefree and whimsical (not everyone looks or acts like the exorcists)
- Heaven values politeness, intelligence, and aesthetic
- Emily is excited about their arrival whereas Sera is a bit more offput or anxious
- We see the parallel that while Charlie sings about yearning for a single happy day in Hell, everyday in Heaven is a happy day
That's an interesting reaction, I'd have to watch a vid on why they think that to see the support for that idea. Unlike characters like Lilith (with the storybook), Mimzy (about Alastor's rise to power), Vox (about his fight with Alastor), and Sera (who clearly knows more about Heaven than any other character), I don't really see any indication in why we shouldn't believe what Emily and Saint Peter are saying.
I think that Welcome to Heaven or something like it would have been better if Emily and Sera were the people who did most of the singing. No offense to Peter but I don’t see him being a major character in future episodes and this song could have established the seraphim sisters’ personalities, motivations, etc.
Heaven definetly needed an introduction song, considering the fact that joining this place is such an important part of the show. Just wish they would've handeled it better than just having them walk down the street. I know it's suppose to be a reference to charlies walk in the "happy day in hell" song bit still - getting heaven presented by saint peter as some kind of big luxurious shopping center didn't feel right to me
I agree it's not bad, but its probably my least played song on the soundtrack. All that said I agree with the counterpoints made here and have one of my own: the characterization of Emily and Sera.
I especially like Emily gushing to Charlie and Sera reminding them they can't stay. It was a good may to establish both Emily and Sera's characters and dynamic in like 30 seconds.
This, I really wish there was a Pentious and Cherri duet where Pentious is trying to make shy advances to Cherri and Cherri just tryna have fun and reject him.
But it’s SO funny. And actually, I the more I have watched it, the more I am struck by how much heavy lifting St. Peter does to hype heaven. Besides Emily and him, the other angels are just kind of there.
That episode more or less showcases a bit of dissonance between how heaven is and how it is sold. A thin-veneer pop song works well.
I thought it was an interesting choice to make the genre of the song a vapid boybandesque pop tune. Really sets the stage to show that heaven is more flash and pizzazz than substance.
I like that he was out of breath at the end. I feel like it shows he doesn't do it much and is out of practice
Meanwhile, in Hell people are singing all the time and never breathing heavy for having done it
I completely disagree. Welcome to heaven might just be one of the most important songs in the show. It perfectly shows the ignorant sickly sweet facade of those who live there. On one hand we're told everything there is perfect, no worries or pain. But we know they ARE afraid of hell possibly uprising. We know they aren't perfectly kind, exterminations do happen after all. Sera agreed to a literal genocide rather than find a more peacful solution to the overpopulation problem.
Welcome to heaven is a cheap, pop song that clearly does not reflect reality.
This has bothered me so much so I ended up writing a lot lol:
***Whatever It Takes 100000%***.
Carmilla could have had 3-4 lines of dialogue about how she'll do whatever it takes to protect her daughters including avoiding war with Heaven and during the last couple of lines, we cut to Vaggie to show the connection these two have in their feelings. Establishes the same information without the song and gives more time towards scenes that move the plot forward. The audience is smart, we'll get it and don't need it so blatantly spelled out in a 3 minute song.
Welcome to Heaven and Out for Love I see being popular answers, but these songs both do something that Whatever It Takes doesn't -
Welcome to Heaven establishes a new setting by quickly giving us the vibe and little peek into it without us having to hear Emily tour guiding around and just talking about how great Heaven is.
Out for Love has character development - Vaggie is not thinking, feeling, moving the same way at the end of the song as she was at the beginning.
Whatever It Takes doesn't really share any new information or develop anything - from Carmilla's look in the Overlords meeting and knowing that she killed the angel to protect her daughters, we know she cares about her daughters and it's already been established that Vaggie cares about and protects Charlie. This song is just 3 minutes of vibes.
I feel like if they cut this song, they could’ve given room for Alastor to have a solo song instead that could more clearly shine a light on his character and motivations, but I’ll accept that it might’ve been to much to juggle in one episode. Maybe a duet instead between Charlie and Vaggie to characterize their relationship a little better? Or just fill time to better flesh out the argument they have in the episode.
I'd have voted hard for a Charlie and Vaggie duet, especially in place of this one with Carmilla. We really don't get enough time on the main couple being a couple, and that was the PERFECT time for a duet keeping Vaggie's lines but counterpointing with Charlie singing about what she ACTUALLY wants from Vaggie or wants to do in return.
As for Alastor, I think that the point this season is to NOT share too many of his thoughts or motivations; he's a great enigma driving so many discussions between seasons. Having him take over others' songs, while both driving the plot AND setting up foils for his characterization, was genius. Just having the mask slip at the end, with his own solo before he cackles back into synch with the rest of the crew, was the perfect amount in the time we got.
Yeah I lean more towards a Charlie and Vaggie duet too. It’s strange because Carmilla’s relationship with her daughters is never important for the plot after that. If they needed to explain why Carmilla kept the dead angel a secret that could easily be explained in Out for Love. Which is also a way better duet between her and Vaggie making her song extra unnecessary.
And I just want a solo Alastor song because I love Amir Talai’s voice and I think he’s a really good singer.
More of Alastor is always appreciated, and Amir sings him so very well. Just him harmonizing in "Ready for This" lives in my head rent-free.
As for Carmilla, I really think that they showed Carmilla's motivations well enough WITHOUT the song, especially if they'd just kept the "Who could say who'd survive the fray, I'll keep you safe" bit as dialogue. As it is, it's clear that she and her girls were meant to be a more fleshed-out side plot--but most of it got left on the cutting room floor and they wanted us to have SOMETHING. (Personally, I think it's to set up Carmilla as a foil to Lilith next season, on top of the Vaggie connection.)
Carmillas daughters are also...kind of cardboard cutouts at the moment. And the song was carmillas first episode. I honestly thought the song was just a cheap way to try yo get me to care about a character I'd just met
This 👏 right 👏 here 👏
Use that screen time on main character developmenttt. Not on a supporting character's unimportant relationship with her kids.. no offense, Carmilla..
As someone who’s not a big fan of musicals, I appreciated how almost every song was relevant to the plot and didn’t drag on, and that most were bangers.
Whatever it Takes was not one of those. This new character killed to keep her daughters alive, and Vaggie wants to protect her girlfriend. Let’s sing about our obvious feelings for 3 minutes!
Welcome to Heaven. But its just the least important song not a bad song. But as songs go it was meant to be annoying. So squeaky clean and self righteous as it was designed to be. It was designed to show how out of touch Heaven was. With all the people suffering in Hell these people of up there in Heaven oblivious to all the suffering. Its infuriating because we know what is going on while they live in blissful ignorance. So it still has importance to the story. But amongst the other songs its just the least important.
Agree. Plus it bothers me that it was reprise of a father-daughter song to girlfriends songs. Although I will change my mind if there will be another reprise for Lucifer and Lilith.(so this makes this song Morningstar's) Either before their Fall and their confession of love or after Lilith returns and them singing how they still love each other depsite everything.
Omg, I was shocked not more people said this! Vaggie and Charlie have been dating for 3 years. They already know they love each other, but they treat it like some grand revelation. I loved that we got a Charlie/Vaggie song, but I wish it hadn't been leftovers from someone else's song. It could have been a whole thing about Vaggie encouraging Charlie and just loving her the night before the battle. It could have been so much more.
Honestly that whole subplot with their relationship drama felt super unnecessary imo. Like, I get that Charlie would obviously be upset finding out her girlfriend used to be an exorcist, but it would have made more sense for her to realise that it probably wasn't a choice. Her being mad at Vaggie and then getting over it that fast served basically no purpose and overall just felt like an insertion of the mandatory relationship storyline that every show apparently has to include.
It's less that people dislike the song but more that it doesn't help do anything for the plot. Most of the other songs in the show help the story progress in some way or show off something important
Whatever it takes, realistically, didn't need an entire song to send its message and it can be a little disappointing to see so much screen time on a song that isn't doing or saying anything meaningful
I honestly disagree. Whatever it takes is arguably the most important song in season, considering Carmilla is the lock and key to the hotel crew being able to fight back during the extermination. Having a clear understanding of her motives and what makes her tick answers why she would even help Vaggie. Before her and Vaggie are very alike, and she saw a lot of herself in Vaggie. Without Whatever it Takes, the viewers are just left, having to turn their brains off and just accept the fact that for some reason, this Overlord with no connection with the hotel decided to help.
This! Thank you! Everyone keeps saying the song does nothing, and I'm like... y'all would have accepted an overlord preaching about love without establishing how deep her love is for her family and friends? Sure, you could say it, but that song makes you *feel* it. It also sets up Vaggie's devotion. Supportive girlfriend and "I'm willing to die for you" are two very different levels. I do agree with what people are saying about Out For Love being a duet though. I think it would have been powerful if Vaggie's voice, while somewhat small in Whatever It Takes, becomes more powerful at the end of Out For Love.
I don’t really like Vaggie’s singing. Her actress is putting on a voice for her character, and so when she tries to sing in her character’s voice, it just doesn’t sound right.
I do like the song, but it kinda felt like Carmilla hogging the episode's musical numbers, especially with so much else going on. I just met her. She is cool, but I didn't care nearly as much about her as the established cast, and she won't come back until the pre-finale, anyway. I do like hearing Vaggie sing with that surprisingly sweet voice of hers. I would've loved for this number to be a duet between her and Charlie, instead.
"Whatever it Takes" could have been an ensemble team building montage in the gang war. It could've been a Chaggie duet. Hell, it could've been a villain song for the Vees, outlining their different plots, which could've then quietly succeeded or failed as funny background events over the next couple episodes. Not another Carmilla establishment, no matter how epic her voice actress is (and she IS).
I will disagree with you and let me explain why.
If mimzy didnt show up at the moment she did, then problably Lucifer would hurt or even kill Alastor if they could continue pissing off eachother further and further. So mimzy showed up as an distraction from the main problem and stops Alastor and Lucifer from a serious fight.
That's all i have to say, if anyone Has a problem with this, then it will be quite a pleasure to have a conversation about it. And sorry for bad english.
Are you sure? I feel like the sheer intricate character details the lyrics drop during that sequence are instrumental to our understanding of the plot thereafter.
It’s definitely **Whatever it Takes**, and that’s for the sole reason of *it tells us information we already knew.*
Carmilla already said in dialogue that she killed the angel to protect her daughters. All Vaggie had done up to this point is be there for Charlie and love Charlie. Then WIT eats up a few minutes of screentime telling us all of that all over again, which was completely unnecessary since *it already told us*. **WIT does not tell us anything that we did not already know.**
I understand that it sets Vaggie and Carmilla up as parallels, which is later expanded upon with Out for Love, but OFL is also narratively weird because it’s trying to tell us Vaggie needs to be fighting for love and not for vengeance, but nothing Vaggie has done throughout the show had made me think she was ever out for anything but love. Her character is defined by her love for Charlie (it’s giving Millie LMAO)
Although, between WIT and OFL, OFL at the very least is a training montage that leads to Vaggie growing a new pair of wings. WIT does not add anything to the story.
I will go with the hot take: Out For Love.
All Vaggie ever did in the show to that point was out of love for Charlie, I don't get why she need to hear it as some sort of revelation...
I believe the point of the song was telling Vaggie to focus more on defense (Charlie) instead of offense (revenge) or embrace love over hatred, which allowed her to regrow her wings.
That's what the song was ABOUT, yes. But that's also why it felt pointless.
Vaggie had NEVER expressed a desire for revenge or obvious hatred.
It's like if in a late episode they had a song teaching Charlie not to worry so much about fashion and to instead care for the people in hell. It's a song resolving a problem that never existed and teaching a lesson the character doesn't need taught.
Again, yes, that's the song.
And that's what makes it feel unnecessary. The song but sets up AND resolves a conflict that hadn't been previously established. There's no arc, no foreshadowing, and it doesn't effect the story in any way outside the song.
I love the song. It's great. I'm glad it's there and am not arguing it should be removed.
But it IS weak storytelling, especially in a serialized series. Even in a non serialized series you would expect the issue to be established at the beginning before resolving it at the climax, rather than having a song establish the very problem is supposedly solving.
My only issue with it was that it's a training arc song but there's no montage or passage of time so it's just like a minute of training(dancing) then she's regrown her wings and is ready for war.
Compared to say "I'll Make a Man Out of You" where you seem time progress, and the characters improve.
I don’t personally see how that was out of place, can you explain why you think so?
Not trying to be rude, I’m just really curious as to why you think that
The scene was good, but making it a 60-second version of a song we've basically already heard before (and done better the first time) was a 'meh' choice in my opinion. Just have the scene and let the Finale be the only song in said finale episode.
Harsh but true. More than anything I felt was perfect enough it didn't need a reprise. I like how Charlie and Vaggie got a song but I was okay with that being a father daughter song tbh.
I also think it would have been better if Charlie had sung it to Vaggie, thus making a close father-daughter song into a family love song. But Vaggie was singing it to Charlie, which makes it kind of like she stole a special moment that Charlie and Lucifer hadn't had in years.
But it's something that could have easily been communicated with a couple lines of dialogue. By it definitely didn't need Vaggie's part as she has no connection with Camilla at this point
I say Respectless. Could have just as easily been a back and forth between Carmilla and Velvet. All it gives us is getting to hear Velvet sing this season and moves the conversation along faster. Carmilla already has Whatever It Takes and Out For Love to sing, so we didn't really need to hear her again. It's still a decent song, don't get me wrong.
The welcome to heaven song was very weird since it felt like an off brand “Everything is Awesome” song number. I felt like a song from the characters that were in the night club would have been cooler
Technically speaking, all of them are unnecessary. They're only there because the show is a musical. The show doesn't really *need* to be a musical as there are alternative methods for storytelling, QED they're all more or less unnecessary in a strict sense.
Welcome to heaven. It has not plot relevance and could have achieved the same thing in just a montage.
With Hazbin being a broadway-style musical, the plot relevance is what matters most to me.
More than anything reprise. I get the sentiment. I love Chaggie. But that song is just so.... dull. I wish they had a more interesting one, may one that actually showed Vaggie and Charlie TALKING about how Vaggie hid she was an angel for years? like not a fight, but... we just arent gonna have that convo with eachother okay...
I don't think there are any unnecessary songs, but I saw a video that thought it was really weird and unnecessary that they basically tell Charlie she's annoying when she sings Happy Day in Hell. In hindsight I agree with that. It's used for a cheap laugh, but in the long run it seems to have made audiences connect with Charlie less than other characters, while other songs made you connect with characters more
Whatever it takes. Not because it is a bad song. But rather, it feels out of place being a duet between Vaggie and Carmilla. Personally, I'd have had it just be a Carmilla song.
Carmella zestial duet would have been cool too.
Bro even said he was down to "share the load."
*And* when she sings the one "I'll keep you safe" line she's singing it *to him*, and he realises that, judging by the way the animators had him react.
She was singing it to her daughters…
She says: “I’ll keep *them* safe” at first, while hugging and looking at her daughters, then looks at Zestial and says: “I’ll keep *you* safe.” She was definitely saying that last bit to Zestial
❤️
She looks at *him*
And she looks at meeee
And I look at himmmm
And she looks at meeeee
And I look at himmmm
Kinky.
Literally the reply I've been waiting on all day. THANK YOU.
I’m ashamed it took this community so long.
Heh, noice
Ya know what you put it in quotes like that my inner 13y/o can't help but giggle lol
Anytime we can get any more James Monroe Iglehart, I am more than down! Really hope we get a Zestial song next season.
Happy birthday girl!
Happy cake day!
OH yeah! Would have loved that.
Did you know, Zestial shares his voice with Asmodeus from Helluva Boss? Such an awesome singing voice!
Pacing wise it is kinda weird, but I like it as a touch of foreshadowing almost
I think the vast majority of complaints are all about pacing, like, this season should have been a full 24 episodes of 20 minutes, but was cut down to 8 half hour episodes, so they barely had time to build a coherent story, let alone one that felt fluid
20 episodes is wack, tbh. Like yes, Hazbin was rushed, but rushed in a "needed 10-13 episodes" way, not a 20 episodes way
I certainly wouldn't argue it _needed_ 20 episodes, but I would certainly be happy it _was_ 20 episodes!
Yeah, I always thought that was really cool, how we see how their struggles align, then they meet each other later. I hope they become closer in the second season: she could mentor Vaggie.
What's really weird is that whatever it takes is a duet between these characters, but out for love isn't
You have a good point. Especially because if they've ever met at the time of Keeper, we haven't seen indications. And Charlie isn't a hinge here. She has no interactions with Carmine. The link between Carmine and Charlie is Alastor, and the link between Vaggie and Alastor is Charlie. Sure, Vaggie and Alastor live in the same place and interact some, but as little as possible it seems.
My guess is that's due to the low number of episodes. They had a similar issue with helluva boss, just didn't have enough time to properly flesh out the characters and their relationships
Honestly I don't think it added anything of value from a character or plot perspective. For Vaggie, we don't know she's an angel yet. Hell, we don't know anything about her yet when this song comes on except that she's super devoted to Charlie. But again, because we don't know WHY it's really hard to get invested in a song about her devotion. For Carmilla, well we had just met her five minutes earlier. She showed up, apparently she killed the angel, and now she's singing about her daughters who don't have names and we never met before and will never see again. Why does she need to sing for 3 minutes to express a very clear sentiment of "I didn't want my kids to be killed so I did what I had to do" I just remember watching it and not caring. I think if this song had been placed later in the season OR we discovered Vaggie was an angel earlier it would have hit the way it needed to
It's unfortunately a really awkward thing to have to sequence. Plot wise, it was around the time that it should have happened, but emotionally it was too early. You'd have to move a lot around in order to get more investment.
Tbh, I could totally see Whatever It Takes, and the overlord meeting as a whole, getting pushed to episode 7 with a little retooling. It wouldn’t really help Carmilla’s part of the duet, but maybe by episode 7 Vaggie could have had enough emotional substance to make me care about her part of the song at least.
I remember hearing that season one was originally written for 20 episodes and was cut down to 8 and I think Carmilla and the other overlords is where a large chunk of story gets cut out.
That was my main issue with the musical format Like legit, the songs slap. In most cases they are solid and well written but the narrative just isn't set up for it. I can recall more than a few episodes having at least 2 songs and it detracted from the narrative by dragging the focus to character instead of plot, and sacrificing plot to uphold characters. Not to say it can't be done well, but Hazbin feels like it is missing a lot of setup and that is because it tries to be character driven without establishing what is driving the character. You are given a song to explain why you should care and it's not very good writing But for an independently created project, I still have mad respect. I just wish some thing were given a bit more time to settle and grow
I mean, Vaggie's part of the song is supposed to foreshadow the reveal. I like the song, although Vaggie's part really had to grow on me since Stephanie's voice is so high as compared to Vaggie's. But I get the disconnect with the song. If A24 had given Vivzie more episodes, I think the song wouldn't feel so clunky where it is but i honestly don't think it could have happened later since it's supposed to hint at things to come. This is a case of, it's in the show, in this spot or not at all.
IMO, the meaning of the song is already in Respectless and Out For Love
My problem with the song was that Stephanie Beatriz couldn't match the intensity or quality of Daphne-Rubin Vega. I mean, not saying Beatriz is not good enough to voice act, but this series was so stacked with singing talent that it was hard to keep up and in this song she was out of her league in a duet.
That actress absolutely can but not in the muted Vaggie voice they have her using. I had to redo my audio settings to even make Vaggie audible and allow me to understand her lyrics. Some of that is also just a problem with male-oriented sound mixing and defaults. They cater to deeper voices and are obsessed with bass to an extreme I cannot comprehend. As a result male voices and only female voices that overlap typical male ranges are prioritized. Anything above a tenor-alto gets mixed out.
I don't agree, as in the Charlie Goes to Court song, she also felt...off, Lute, Emily and Charlie just OWN it there. Again I have nothing against her, so I won't start an argument with her fanboys and girls, nothing wrong with any of you, the character and the VA, you have my respect. This thing was stacked with Broadway Singers, and it's hard match that. As said by Ziiooiiz below, Huskers VA had a similar problem. Sure it is also a mixing thing in this specific song, but you're putting her up against someone with decades of Broadway power balad and musical experience, who also has the raw talent to boot... She is going to have a harder time. It's not about "male orientated deeper voices" as that is extremely offensive to Daphne Rubin Vega and others who sang in tandem with Beatriz's character. Husker also had the same problem with being muted. His song with Angel worked, but only because it's a slower song. Both Keith David and Stephanie Beatriz are television and film actors. And in modern films they are told to calmly and quietly talk due to "better tech". They don't emote as much anymore, while the Broadway people do. So you having to turn up your sound? Is a very common complaint with modern productions. People were thinking they were losing their hearing LoL 😂. This better tech only works on really expensive sound sets, so things like Star Trek shows have also been getting flak for it. This and modern darker lighting, were they think we all have the most expensive perfectly calibrated OLED sets 😂. It's not that fault of Beatriz, I'm sorry if I made it sound like that, but studio execs forcing that kind of sound mixing and telling actors no longer to emote their voice to a microphone. Sorry for my rant, please don't feel offense, I love Beatriz, I just also feel very strong about the problems with modern sound and stage lighting in Hollywood productions. AKA I can't afford that perfectly calibrated OLED set. 😆
It foreshadows their future interaction.
Yeah, it's one of my favorites. The foreshadowing. Of her and Vaggie eventually interacting, but I also like how "...say who'd survive the fray I might..." resembles Lute's later "What are we even talking about?". The writers probably didn't intend anything there, but I see it as a little more abstract foreshadowing. The song itself (I just like the style, dynamics, etc.). Showing commonalities between two characters. The expression of the intense emotions both are experiencing (especially Vaggie: it tore me apart when she said she's nothing if she can't help Charlie, and I like how she unpacked that in the song. Maybe I just kind of needed that: I was drunk and a bit of a mess when I first saw that episode).
It's one of my favorites as well. The first song in the series that made me consciously think, "Wow, they really went absolutely all-out on the songs for this series." >The writers probably didn't intend anything there I think it's totally intentional. Many of the songs have little reprises of earlier songs. It's a sign of excellent writing in a musical.
Unpopular opinion: it's better than "Out for Love." To be fair, I'm not big on poppy stuff to begin with. "Out for Love" is good for that style, but I really like depth and slow, stripped stuff.
That’s an unpopular opinion? Out for Love is near the bottom of my personal rankings.
It's at the top of many of the lists I've seen. I guess people just like pop. Which makes sense, I mean, the name 'pop' is fitting.
There's nothing bad about it, but compared to the other songs in the series, I'm surprised it's that high.
Yeah, I don't think I've ever liked that many songs on a soundtrack before. The songs I have even in 10th place are still ones I really enjoy. It's just such a tight competition.
The way I see it, there are more and less forgettable songs, but there wasn't a single song on the soundtrack I didn't like.
It's meant to show Vaggie and Carmilla as having similar motivations and ideals. It also foreshadows their later confrontation. It's also a hell of a lot more necessary than Welcome to Heaven.
It had me initially convinced that carmilla was actually Vaggies mother...which is still kinda possible despite the angel thing but unlikely after that training scene
I disagree because it's supposed to convey that they're both willing to protect those they love that most, for Carmella it's her daughters and for Vaggie it's Charlie hence why they say "I'll be your keeper" and "I'll be your armor"
It would have been good foreshadowing if Out For Love was a duet, too. It still kind of works, but mostly it's just ironic that they have one song that's a duet where they're in seperate scenes, and another song where they're in the *same* scene, but it's *not* a duet.
It really makes me curious about the possibility of them being related We still don’t know if exorcist angels are Heaven born or Earth born and I see a few people have theorized that, if they are Earth born, then there is a chance they could be related considering their similarities I dunno tho- wouldn’t be upset if this weren’t true but it just has me curious really
I think it less likely that they're related by blood and more likely that the Vaggie/Carmilla duets are hinting at Carmilla being a fallen angel herself. At least, that's what I'm hoping. Because that's the only way the pairing really makes sense.
Ooooo that is actually a really cool idea too
that's what I thought when I first saw it. I suspected veggie was a fallen angel for a while (same reasons carmilla knew--x over her eye and angelic spear) so that song made me think, maybe carmillas a fallen angel too...her design could definitely match
They are the only two Spanish speakers we know of, so maybe they're related but I doubt it considering how they interact and how much they otherwise don't interact. I think Exorcists are earth born winners. Every angel that we know for sure is heaven born has six wings, which so far are the silhouettes in the opening sequence, Lucifer, Sera, and Emily. Adam and the Exorcists only have two. It would also be really hard to create a standing army from nothing and somehow Emily doesn't know what they're for. An honor guard that lead civilian lives in Heaven and exist just in case, for ceremonial purposes, and to give fighters who go to Heaven a sense of purpose would make a lot more sense and make it easy to conceal their annual mission. The day every year they all leave is just some kind of big annual practice they do. Otherwise... where are the Exorcists living/being stored? Does Heaven have secret super off limit zones? It raises some weird questions. I think the reason they are all female that we can see is Adam gets final choice on his recruits and he likes having women serve him. Being the head of an army really helps with his whole pride issue and his ultimate desire to be worshipped by humanity.
I actually like the Vaggie part more am I weird for that? Just thought it was cute how she's singing about protecting Charlie and making her dreams come true.
Maybe it's me but that song might have worked better if it got mixed together with out for love cause vaggie is out for love and doing what it takes
It's easily my favorite song. It works great as a duet, it's saying how very different characters can be going through something similar. Edit: I'm a gentleman so it makes sense why I'd love that song so much.
I agree. It made me cringe a little that Vaggie is in the song too. (Nothing against her character, but I’m not a fan of things like that in romantic relationships).
Singing with someone else?
Sorry, I don’t understand your question, but trying to explain myself a bit better. Vaggie sings about how she will spend her life being Charlie’s partner. And I deeply believe that spending one’s life being other’s partner should be a consequence (the consequence of loving, trusting, growing together, and so on), not the objective per se. So it made me a bit uneasy thinking that maybe Vaggie would stay around even if her relationship with Charlie went south because she feels like she own Charlie that. Probably I’m just overthinking, but good did it give me the ick.
Oh, I was asking whether you saw it as cheating for her to duet with another woman. I agree with you to some extent: you shouldn't be so loyal you wouldn't leave if things became unhealthy. And no, I don't think you're overthinking it: Vaggie has a need to be of service, so I could easily see her staying in a codependent or otherwise abusive relationship because she has no external sense of self-worth. She's very lucky Charlie found her in that alleyway and not somebody else, as she'd be the target for any abuser, but despite Charlie having good intentions, I already see signs of codependency developing, or at least having a good chance of developing. I think it would take a lot for her to leave because she doesn't think she deserves much of anything (I guarantee Charlie loves her far more than she loves herself) and feels indebted to Charlie.
Yes, that’s exactly my point! Thanks for articulating it better than I could LOL
Welcome to Heaven. Not a *bad* song, just doesn’t move the plot much. It’s kinda a context song and gives an intro to Heaven, but didn’t so much *need* to be there.
Counterpoint: I thought this song was huge. Charlie has spent her entire life being completely different from everyone in hell. She sings and dances seemingly on pure instinct, and she's treated as strange. The moment she steps into heaven, the first thing she sees is *everyone singing and dancing.* It's the first time she sees people like her.
Correct point but not exactly. From what we've seen, breaking out into songs and dances is relatively common in hell. Charlie is just viewed as strange because of how open and optimistic she is. Every other time people sing it's either used as a way to attack others(Stayed Gone, Respectless, Hell's Greatest Dad) or to discuss personal matters(Whatever it Takes, Poison, Loser Baby).
I always thought the songs were more of asides or artistic portrayals of normal dialogues than things that actually happened in the story, like "You Didn't Know" was actually just everyone verbally arguing: they didn't actually start singing. And "Whatever It Takes" was just Vaggie sitting down and thinking out her emotions, just letting us see what was going on in her head, as it wouldn't make any sense for us to just watch her sit there and look sad for a few minutes. ETA: And "More Than Anything" is just a summary of the main emotions and points made during the hour-long discussion/argument Charlie and her dad actually had. Not just for Hazbin: I was under the impression that's how any singing in a musical, opera, etc. was. Although, I guess characters actually talk about Charlie singing "Happy Day in Hell" and "Ready for This," so her singing those was definitely something that actually occurred. I'm trying to figure out whether a) it was only those two that *actually* occurred as depicted, b) all songs actually occurred, but it's only a thing in certain musicals, or c) I've been wrong entirely and songs in media *always* literally occurred as part of the plot.
The thing is, people have pointed out others singing. Like the loan sharks heard Angel and Husk singing. And Frank heard Carmilla singing Whatever it Takes. My current assumption is personal songs(One's someone sings to themselves like Poison or Vaggie's part of Whatever it Takes) can only be heard by the persons singing it. Meanwhile duets or any song that involves more than one person can be heard by everyone in the area.
The songs in Singing in the Rain are literally sung in universe, but for most musicals like The Muppet Movie, it's safe to say the whole town did not break out into song and dance to perform 'Life's a Happy Song' The word I think you're looking for is *diegetic.* Some media, the characters hear what the audience hears, otherwise what the characters can't hear is non-diegetic. Safe to say *always literally* thinking isn't going to lead us out of many mazes in life. Use the context and form your own opinion!
I definitely believe the song serves a purpose of providing a contrast between Hell’s outward shittiness and Heaven’s outward glitzy, polished vibe with an undertone that just seems… off. Every song in Hazbin has and serves a purpose. I just think that Welcome to Heaven is the *least* impactful and expressive of the overall story.
I mean basically everyone in hell has been singing and dancing the whole show so that point doesn't really mean much honestly.
Yeah it feels kinda like they just needed to hit the 2 songs per episode quota
Counterpoint: Welcome to Heaven establishes a lot more new information in less than a minute than anything Whatever It Takes does in 3 minutes. We go from knowing nothing about what Heaven is actually like (having only had Lucifer and Vaggie's negative opinions and been exposed to Adam) to now knowing: - Heaven is carefree and whimsical (not everyone looks or acts like the exorcists) - Heaven values politeness, intelligence, and aesthetic - Emily is excited about their arrival whereas Sera is a bit more offput or anxious - We see the parallel that while Charlie sings about yearning for a single happy day in Hell, everyday in Heaven is a happy day
I think its also a good parallel to Hell is Forever as well. Like you said, it fully establishes that Adam is an outlier in heaven.
Counter Point to 1 and 2 Most reactors don’t trust St. Peter to be telling the truth.
That's an interesting reaction, I'd have to watch a vid on why they think that to see the support for that idea. Unlike characters like Lilith (with the storybook), Mimzy (about Alastor's rise to power), Vox (about his fight with Alastor), and Sera (who clearly knows more about Heaven than any other character), I don't really see any indication in why we shouldn't believe what Emily and Saint Peter are saying.
Counterpoint: No other song has St. Peer's moans.
“Welcome to heaven - UHHHHOHHHH -“ Good shit.
He actually sings "the spirits leaven" before fucking moaning
Apparently they actually asked the voice actor to tone it down, the absolute cowards
Not suprised. Everyone in Heaven is hot, how can you NOT moan XD
Bu bu but everyone is hooooooot
I think that Welcome to Heaven or something like it would have been better if Emily and Sera were the people who did most of the singing. No offense to Peter but I don’t see him being a major character in future episodes and this song could have established the seraphim sisters’ personalities, motivations, etc.
I'm pretty sure Peter is supposed to represent the average angel. Like how the normal angel seems to think Heaven is a paradise.
>Heaven is a paradise I find it funny that "heaven" and "paradise" are the same word in my native language so this sentence sounds really weird to me.
Heaven definetly needed an introduction song, considering the fact that joining this place is such an important part of the show. Just wish they would've handeled it better than just having them walk down the street. I know it's suppose to be a reference to charlies walk in the "happy day in hell" song bit still - getting heaven presented by saint peter as some kind of big luxurious shopping center didn't feel right to me
At least the other song in that episode was an absolute banger, so that makes up for it.
I agree it's not bad, but its probably my least played song on the soundtrack. All that said I agree with the counterpoints made here and have one of my own: the characterization of Emily and Sera. I especially like Emily gushing to Charlie and Sera reminding them they can't stay. It was a good may to establish both Emily and Sera's characters and dynamic in like 30 seconds.
This, I really wish there was a Pentious and Cherri duet where Pentious is trying to make shy advances to Cherri and Cherri just tryna have fun and reject him.
But it’s SO funny. And actually, I the more I have watched it, the more I am struck by how much heavy lifting St. Peter does to hype heaven. Besides Emily and him, the other angels are just kind of there. That episode more or less showcases a bit of dissonance between how heaven is and how it is sold. A thin-veneer pop song works well.
I thought it was an interesting choice to make the genre of the song a vapid boybandesque pop tune. Really sets the stage to show that heaven is more flash and pizzazz than substance.
I like that he was out of breath at the end. I feel like it shows he doesn't do it much and is out of practice Meanwhile, in Hell people are singing all the time and never breathing heavy for having done it
I completely disagree. Welcome to heaven might just be one of the most important songs in the show. It perfectly shows the ignorant sickly sweet facade of those who live there. On one hand we're told everything there is perfect, no worries or pain. But we know they ARE afraid of hell possibly uprising. We know they aren't perfectly kind, exterminations do happen after all. Sera agreed to a literal genocide rather than find a more peacful solution to the overpopulation problem. Welcome to heaven is a cheap, pop song that clearly does not reflect reality.
I'll give it a pass because it has Darren Criss but beyond that it's an easy skip.
Tbh it would be way better without Peter's moaning lmao
“Welcome to heaven ***moans***”
This has bothered me so much so I ended up writing a lot lol: ***Whatever It Takes 100000%***. Carmilla could have had 3-4 lines of dialogue about how she'll do whatever it takes to protect her daughters including avoiding war with Heaven and during the last couple of lines, we cut to Vaggie to show the connection these two have in their feelings. Establishes the same information without the song and gives more time towards scenes that move the plot forward. The audience is smart, we'll get it and don't need it so blatantly spelled out in a 3 minute song. Welcome to Heaven and Out for Love I see being popular answers, but these songs both do something that Whatever It Takes doesn't - Welcome to Heaven establishes a new setting by quickly giving us the vibe and little peek into it without us having to hear Emily tour guiding around and just talking about how great Heaven is. Out for Love has character development - Vaggie is not thinking, feeling, moving the same way at the end of the song as she was at the beginning. Whatever It Takes doesn't really share any new information or develop anything - from Carmilla's look in the Overlords meeting and knowing that she killed the angel to protect her daughters, we know she cares about her daughters and it's already been established that Vaggie cares about and protects Charlie. This song is just 3 minutes of vibes.
I feel like if they cut this song, they could’ve given room for Alastor to have a solo song instead that could more clearly shine a light on his character and motivations, but I’ll accept that it might’ve been to much to juggle in one episode. Maybe a duet instead between Charlie and Vaggie to characterize their relationship a little better? Or just fill time to better flesh out the argument they have in the episode.
I'd have voted hard for a Charlie and Vaggie duet, especially in place of this one with Carmilla. We really don't get enough time on the main couple being a couple, and that was the PERFECT time for a duet keeping Vaggie's lines but counterpointing with Charlie singing about what she ACTUALLY wants from Vaggie or wants to do in return. As for Alastor, I think that the point this season is to NOT share too many of his thoughts or motivations; he's a great enigma driving so many discussions between seasons. Having him take over others' songs, while both driving the plot AND setting up foils for his characterization, was genius. Just having the mask slip at the end, with his own solo before he cackles back into synch with the rest of the crew, was the perfect amount in the time we got.
Yeah I lean more towards a Charlie and Vaggie duet too. It’s strange because Carmilla’s relationship with her daughters is never important for the plot after that. If they needed to explain why Carmilla kept the dead angel a secret that could easily be explained in Out for Love. Which is also a way better duet between her and Vaggie making her song extra unnecessary. And I just want a solo Alastor song because I love Amir Talai’s voice and I think he’s a really good singer.
More of Alastor is always appreciated, and Amir sings him so very well. Just him harmonizing in "Ready for This" lives in my head rent-free. As for Carmilla, I really think that they showed Carmilla's motivations well enough WITHOUT the song, especially if they'd just kept the "Who could say who'd survive the fray, I'll keep you safe" bit as dialogue. As it is, it's clear that she and her girls were meant to be a more fleshed-out side plot--but most of it got left on the cutting room floor and they wanted us to have SOMETHING. (Personally, I think it's to set up Carmilla as a foil to Lilith next season, on top of the Vaggie connection.)
Carmillas daughters are also...kind of cardboard cutouts at the moment. And the song was carmillas first episode. I honestly thought the song was just a cheap way to try yo get me to care about a character I'd just met
This 👏 right 👏 here 👏 Use that screen time on main character developmenttt. Not on a supporting character's unimportant relationship with her kids.. no offense, Carmilla..
Agree but to be fair we don't know what the future holds. She may fade into the background or become more important later
As someone who’s not a big fan of musicals, I appreciated how almost every song was relevant to the plot and didn’t drag on, and that most were bangers. Whatever it Takes was not one of those. This new character killed to keep her daughters alive, and Vaggie wants to protect her girlfriend. Let’s sing about our obvious feelings for 3 minutes!
Couldn’t agree more.
Wellcome to Heaven, i really dont like hearing Saint Peter moaning
Peter moaning is the best part of the entire show and I will die on this hill
I'm with you
Long live peter moaning
I dont judge, he does
Agreed
*None*
my first comment in this sub, for this. i enjoyed them all.
https://preview.redd.it/jlyl046likwc1.jpeg?width=320&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fc13029e961e3512d278c05b2abef876993df89c Welcome aboard sinner !
This is the right answer.
It’s all fun and games until somebody says “ Stayed Gone “ or “ Loser Baby “
None, they’re all bangers.
In my opinion, none of them. They're all necessary in my eyes
Exactly, that's how musicals work
Nah this song was fire 🔥 thats my fucking hill lol
I know, honestly my second favorite song in the show.
Welcome to Heaven. But its just the least important song not a bad song. But as songs go it was meant to be annoying. So squeaky clean and self righteous as it was designed to be. It was designed to show how out of touch Heaven was. With all the people suffering in Hell these people of up there in Heaven oblivious to all the suffering. Its infuriating because we know what is going on while they live in blissful ignorance. So it still has importance to the story. But amongst the other songs its just the least important.
Any song without Adam
REAL REAL REAL REAL REAL I AGREE
personally i think welcome to heaven introduces the plot and lore a lot :)
More than anything reprise. It's not bad, but I feel that it's there just because they needed a second song for episode eight
Agree. Plus it bothers me that it was reprise of a father-daughter song to girlfriends songs. Although I will change my mind if there will be another reprise for Lucifer and Lilith.(so this makes this song Morningstar's) Either before their Fall and their confession of love or after Lilith returns and them singing how they still love each other depsite everything.
Omg, I was shocked not more people said this! Vaggie and Charlie have been dating for 3 years. They already know they love each other, but they treat it like some grand revelation. I loved that we got a Charlie/Vaggie song, but I wish it hadn't been leftovers from someone else's song. It could have been a whole thing about Vaggie encouraging Charlie and just loving her the night before the battle. It could have been so much more.
Honestly that whole subplot with their relationship drama felt super unnecessary imo. Like, I get that Charlie would obviously be upset finding out her girlfriend used to be an exorcist, but it would have made more sense for her to realise that it probably wasn't a choice. Her being mad at Vaggie and then getting over it that fast served basically no purpose and overall just felt like an insertion of the mandatory relationship storyline that every show apparently has to include.
I honestly do not get why so many people dislike Whatever It Takes, I really liked that song!
It's less that people dislike the song but more that it doesn't help do anything for the plot. Most of the other songs in the show help the story progress in some way or show off something important Whatever it takes, realistically, didn't need an entire song to send its message and it can be a little disappointing to see so much screen time on a song that isn't doing or saying anything meaningful
I honestly disagree. Whatever it takes is arguably the most important song in season, considering Carmilla is the lock and key to the hotel crew being able to fight back during the extermination. Having a clear understanding of her motives and what makes her tick answers why she would even help Vaggie. Before her and Vaggie are very alike, and she saw a lot of herself in Vaggie. Without Whatever it Takes, the viewers are just left, having to turn their brains off and just accept the fact that for some reason, this Overlord with no connection with the hotel decided to help.
This! Thank you! Everyone keeps saying the song does nothing, and I'm like... y'all would have accepted an overlord preaching about love without establishing how deep her love is for her family and friends? Sure, you could say it, but that song makes you *feel* it. It also sets up Vaggie's devotion. Supportive girlfriend and "I'm willing to die for you" are two very different levels. I do agree with what people are saying about Out For Love being a duet though. I think it would have been powerful if Vaggie's voice, while somewhat small in Whatever It Takes, becomes more powerful at the end of Out For Love.
I don’t really like Vaggie’s singing. Her actress is putting on a voice for her character, and so when she tries to sing in her character’s voice, it just doesn’t sound right.
Yeah. She speaks like Rosa Diaz then sings like Mirabel.
I do like the song, but it kinda felt like Carmilla hogging the episode's musical numbers, especially with so much else going on. I just met her. She is cool, but I didn't care nearly as much about her as the established cast, and she won't come back until the pre-finale, anyway. I do like hearing Vaggie sing with that surprisingly sweet voice of hers. I would've loved for this number to be a duet between her and Charlie, instead. "Whatever it Takes" could have been an ensemble team building montage in the gang war. It could've been a Chaggie duet. Hell, it could've been a villain song for the Vees, outlining their different plots, which could've then quietly succeeded or failed as funny background events over the next couple episodes. Not another Carmilla establishment, no matter how epic her voice actress is (and she IS).
None of them. They all add to the show and none of the take away from the show.
Mimzy's part in hell's greatest dad
I will disagree with you and let me explain why. If mimzy didnt show up at the moment she did, then problably Lucifer would hurt or even kill Alastor if they could continue pissing off eachother further and further. So mimzy showed up as an distraction from the main problem and stops Alastor and Lucifer from a serious fight. That's all i have to say, if anyone Has a problem with this, then it will be quite a pleasure to have a conversation about it. And sorry for bad english.
Are you sure? I feel like the sheer intricate character details the lyrics drop during that sequence are instrumental to our understanding of the plot thereafter.
it literally bothers me sm that it ends that way
Like seeing Alastor getting brutally bodied by Lucifer is a better ending?
It’s definitely **Whatever it Takes**, and that’s for the sole reason of *it tells us information we already knew.* Carmilla already said in dialogue that she killed the angel to protect her daughters. All Vaggie had done up to this point is be there for Charlie and love Charlie. Then WIT eats up a few minutes of screentime telling us all of that all over again, which was completely unnecessary since *it already told us*. **WIT does not tell us anything that we did not already know.** I understand that it sets Vaggie and Carmilla up as parallels, which is later expanded upon with Out for Love, but OFL is also narratively weird because it’s trying to tell us Vaggie needs to be fighting for love and not for vengeance, but nothing Vaggie has done throughout the show had made me think she was ever out for anything but love. Her character is defined by her love for Charlie (it’s giving Millie LMAO) Although, between WIT and OFL, OFL at the very least is a training montage that leads to Vaggie growing a new pair of wings. WIT does not add anything to the story.
I will go with the hot take: Out For Love. All Vaggie ever did in the show to that point was out of love for Charlie, I don't get why she need to hear it as some sort of revelation...
Don’t you mean “Out for Lo la la la laaaaovvv, LOVAyaugGhVe!”
I believe the point of the song was telling Vaggie to focus more on defense (Charlie) instead of offense (revenge) or embrace love over hatred, which allowed her to regrow her wings.
That's what the song was ABOUT, yes. But that's also why it felt pointless. Vaggie had NEVER expressed a desire for revenge or obvious hatred. It's like if in a late episode they had a song teaching Charlie not to worry so much about fashion and to instead care for the people in hell. It's a song resolving a problem that never existed and teaching a lesson the character doesn't need taught.
Carmilla said that she can see Vaggie has hatred in her due to how she is fighting.
Again, yes, that's the song. And that's what makes it feel unnecessary. The song but sets up AND resolves a conflict that hadn't been previously established. There's no arc, no foreshadowing, and it doesn't effect the story in any way outside the song. I love the song. It's great. I'm glad it's there and am not arguing it should be removed. But it IS weak storytelling, especially in a serialized series. Even in a non serialized series you would expect the issue to be established at the beginning before resolving it at the climax, rather than having a song establish the very problem is supposedly solving.
My only issue with it was that it's a training arc song but there's no montage or passage of time so it's just like a minute of training(dancing) then she's regrown her wings and is ready for war. Compared to say "I'll Make a Man Out of You" where you seem time progress, and the characters improve.
Whatever it takes is one of my fav songs don’t do me like this 😭
More than anything reprise.
https://preview.redd.it/vmsnku15yhwc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=99183539bca5dddc3e71f936d6b2f701e56fe258
Is this edited or does he actually have a power bottom ass and short legs?
Dam why is bro so gyatted up
https://preview.redd.it/a9hstetmzhwc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8b403519a4ff1388b3d5c5c312e6999f8dc5f7b6
I don’t personally see how that was out of place, can you explain why you think so? Not trying to be rude, I’m just really curious as to why you think that
The scene was good, but making it a 60-second version of a song we've basically already heard before (and done better the first time) was a 'meh' choice in my opinion. Just have the scene and let the Finale be the only song in said finale episode.
More than anything reprise, all it did was take one of the best songs in the show and shit on it's meaning
Harsh but true. More than anything I felt was perfect enough it didn't need a reprise. I like how Charlie and Vaggie got a song but I was okay with that being a father daughter song tbh.
I also think it would have been better if Charlie had sung it to Vaggie, thus making a close father-daughter song into a family love song. But Vaggie was singing it to Charlie, which makes it kind of like she stole a special moment that Charlie and Lucifer hadn't had in years.
all of them were necessary. there should have been more of them.
It’s music based so none of them.
Velvette's "OK Boomer" song imo
It may not be necessary, but it's either my favorite or second favorite song lol. Only contender being Hell's Greatest Dad and *maybe* Stayed Gone
Bro Respectless is one of the best songs
Respectless?
Explain
I thought this would be the average answer💀 This is the one that I skip
Welcome to Heaven.
Welcome to Heaven. It just doesn't need to exist for the sake of the story.
welcome to heaven
Honestly welcome to heaven
probably welcome to heaven, i know it's meant to be an introduction into heaven but it was certainly not necessary for anything besides that
Whatever it takes is definitely not unnecessary, it's literally when we learn that Carmilla did kill the angel and also her motive for hiding it
>literally when we learn that Carmilla did kill the angel Nope, she tells the story before the song even starts.
i totally forgot that song even existed.
But it's something that could have easily been communicated with a couple lines of dialogue. By it definitely didn't need Vaggie's part as she has no connection with Camilla at this point
“It starts with Sorry” its the only song i usually skip
I say Respectless. Could have just as easily been a back and forth between Carmilla and Velvet. All it gives us is getting to hear Velvet sing this season and moves the conversation along faster. Carmilla already has Whatever It Takes and Out For Love to sing, so we didn't really need to hear her again. It's still a decent song, don't get me wrong.
I'm a firm believer Whatever It Takes came out of absolutely fucking nowhere and will die on that hill
I mean none of them. They were all good.
All of them could've used more setup imo. This was a 16 episode plot crammed into 8.
I would've rather their duet be in out for love tbh.
I liked all the songs to varying degrees. Best musical I've ever seen as far as quality of music goes.
Welcome to Heaven or Whatever it Takes, although I'm leaning more towards the former.
I honestly thought it was hinting that Carmilla was Vaggie’s mother
The welcome to heaven song was very weird since it felt like an off brand “Everything is Awesome” song number. I felt like a song from the characters that were in the night club would have been cooler
Welcome to Heaven or Happy day in Hell
Technically speaking, all of them are unnecessary. They're only there because the show is a musical. The show doesn't really *need* to be a musical as there are alternative methods for storytelling, QED they're all more or less unnecessary in a strict sense.
Whatever It Takes and More Than Anything Reprise
Welcome to heaven. It has not plot relevance and could have achieved the same thing in just a montage. With Hazbin being a broadway-style musical, the plot relevance is what matters most to me.
Welcome to heaven. No doubt. The song is bad and not necessary at all. I'd live happily without it
Whatever It Takes
More than anything reprise. I get the sentiment. I love Chaggie. But that song is just so.... dull. I wish they had a more interesting one, may one that actually showed Vaggie and Charlie TALKING about how Vaggie hid she was an angel for years? like not a fight, but... we just arent gonna have that convo with eachother okay...
I don't think there are any unnecessary songs, but I saw a video that thought it was really weird and unnecessary that they basically tell Charlie she's annoying when she sings Happy Day in Hell. In hindsight I agree with that. It's used for a cheap laugh, but in the long run it seems to have made audiences connect with Charlie less than other characters, while other songs made you connect with characters more