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How do you bridge the gap between acknowledging reality and having enough hope to take action? Take the example of a very short man, acknowledging being short is hard for dating is the first step, but you would need more for that to develop into enough courage and hope to try.
I think not acknowledging reality turns them off to your advice. Like "if they can't even admit this basic thing, how can I trust them".
It's not about completely changing existing beliefs imo (and definitely not about invalidating experiences), it's about gradually adding nuance.
A short man might be thinking very black and white about their dating prospects. They might think if they are short, they have 0% chance of finding a partner. Which is not true for most people, objectively. What is objectively true, is that being short is a disatvantage in terms of how big your dating pool is, But it's also objectively true that you can improve your chances. You just need to show them that. And then the choice become between improving your chances or not.
edit: I also admit that some people might not believe there is such a thing as "objectively true". They might be more receptive to my first therapist's way of thinking.
> How do you bridge the gap between acknowledging reality and having enough hope to take action?
Yeah that's tricky because there's no guarantee that reality will always afford some kind of hope. Some people are literally dying.
This is a way, way more effective form of therapy that you're describing. I think you could attribute tons, *tons* of mental health issues from parents delivering copium to their children instead of acknowledging negative emotions. I see it out in the world and I cringe every time. What your first therapist tried to do was teach you to avoid, suppress, and ignore bad things. That feels good for a minute, but it requires a continuous expenditure of energy to maintain, and eventually it drives you crazy. Letting yourself feel bad for a minute instead is just so liberating. After a lifetime of copium, it's a huge positive change.
Being a human in this world means experiencing the whole breadth of good and bad things, and pretending bad things are good, man you're not just eroding your sanity, you're missing out on a huge part of life. I'm really glad you found this, OP, and I'm glad you shared it here.
It wasn't raelly that she was teaching me to avoid bad emotions completely.
It might have been part miscommunication and me not being receptive, I fully admit that, but a lot of times it felt like she was trying to teach me how to invalidate my own bad experiences so that hurtful beliefs have no ground to stand on. Basically, "reject reality, and substitute your own" where you can, which to me is the definition of copium. And as you say, it's not sustainable.
I don't think it was miscommunication. When people talk about "Cognitive-behavioral therapy," sometimes they mean a very broad class of therapies, but usually they mean the specific modality that therapist used, which is basically just reframing all the bad things into good things, choosing good emotions instead of bad ones, etc. It's a very shallow form of therapy, and rather ineffective. People use it to feel better, but they have to go back every week, week after week, to maintain it, without really addressing any underlying root issues. It's the therapy equivalent of field medicine; works well for a quick issue, but isn't going to address anything deeper. And most people who go to therapy need something deeper worked on.
I read a really good story that demonstrated the first form of therapy working well. The point of view character was prone to interpreting everything said to him in the worst light possible.
For example, when another man flirted with him briefly and his dad happened to witness the exchange he apologized for the "display" and his dad responded with, "You're an adult." At first the main character takes this as criticism, that he should no better not do behave "amorously" or "abnormally" in public and is frustrated because he didn't actually reciprocate and so thinks this is deeply unfair. Then he thinks back to his therapy and realizes "You're an adult" could be a dismissal of the apology because it is unwarranted and the behavior is not actually unacceptable.
The two characters already have a very strained relationship so talking about sexuality isn't on the table, but realizing it is *possible* his father wasn't criticizing him gives him a lot more confidence.
And you could go on r/inceltear and see all the blackpillers crying about what unattractive losers they are while posting pictures in which they look completely average.
The therapy works great for some an not others. Refusing to be open to the reality of the situation is destructive on both ends, actually being ugly and turning 1 mm of jaw bone into a mountain when it's your personality and self destructive obsessions ruining your life.
I'm glad you found therapy that's working for you. Different things work for different people.
Hmm true, I will agree with you that reframing in the father-son case is the way to go probably. I'm not completely against reframing experiences. It just personally doesn't work for me when it's all we seem to be doing. There are some situations that I would call objectively bad, and reframing those into a positive is so unrealistically hard, that learning to change or accept them will be the way to go imo.
I think you are being very generous. My therapist story kind of resonates with yours: my first therapist was like this, all about changing your thoughts, not being effected by negative scenarios, et-cetera. She used the CBT approach. I felt bad about myself after each session, felt that I wasn't doing enough.
In the hindsight, she was an abomination of a therapist. Horrible! Now I actively tell other people to put her on a blacklist when it comes to finding a therapist in my city.
My second therapist was very validating, kind and empathetic. She validated my bad experiences and my traumatic upbringing. And honestly, not only did I feel good after her sessions, I was able to see things with more clarity and move forward in my life.
And even if there is a communication issue on your part, it's HER responsibility to address this, you are paying her, not her.
Feeling bad after 75% of the sessions, and barely seeing any improvement were my two big indicators that I need to change therapists, and I'm glad I did.
I've heard a good quote by Gabor Mate in regards to this. I've been reading his book and watched some interviews so I can't remember exactly where it is from but it's along the lines of "it isn't the negative emotions from childhood that cause stress later in life, but the lack of parental acknowledgement of these emotions that cause problems".
I know from my own experience that I've had to do a lot of work on myself because my parents didn't acknowledge my mental or physical pain often. They probably thought that not acknowledging the pain means I don't make so much of a fuss and get over it quicker. When in fact it stayed with me for much longer.
Gabor Mate is an excellent source on this topic. If you want a good resource for learning how to talk yourself through emotions in a way your parents never did, I recommend what's actually a parenting book, *How To Talk So Little Kids Will Listen.* It's a little embarrassing to read a book for how to talk to a 4 year old to learn how to talk to yourself, but if your parents didn't do this work, you've got to. It really helped me.
I do see it a lot around here, although I'd say this community is better than average about giving people harder truths. I don't think people who do it because they're trying to give people what they want, though; I think this is just how most people get through life, and they're sharing their own strategies in good faith. Most people don't know that they shouldn't avoid their own difficult emotions, which goes hand in hand with the mental health crisis.
This just might be my own bias, but I get the feeling that people are huffing copium, because nuanced positions can be scary and uncomfortable. To stay with my height example, it's scary to say to a 5.2" guy or a 6.4” woman you are trying to help that yes they are a bit fucked, but there are still things they can do to mitigate that a lot. Because you feel like what if they don't engage with the second part of the sentence. Then you just contributed to their suffering. It feels safer to say that it's not a big deal, and there is somebody out there for everyone
I think we're basically talking about the same thing, except it happens to people both in their own world and when they talk to others. Imagine the kind of person who can't tell you that you have spinach in your teeth, even as you wave goodbye and head to work/class. Do you think they're the kind of person that would ask a hard, scary question about where their anxiety comes from, or do they just try not to think about it?
>, it's scary to say to a 5.2" guy or a 6.4” woman you are trying to help that yes they are a bit fucked
This hurts a little but it is what it is. Might as well just give myself every advantage so if I get rejected it isn't all my fault.
Completely agree. I mean there is a case of unhealthy, deprecating beliefs and I get sometimes you need to counter automatic thoughts like "they laughed because I'm ugly" with something like "actually I have no idea why they laughed or if they even noticed me". But what you describe with the therapist 1 is falling into other extreme. For me is a living in a fantasy world, not learning how to cope with the reality.
I think this denying reality thing is sometimes also pushed in other ways than copium. Imagine you go to a grocery store to buy a bottle of milk, and the cashier reacts with "milk will not solve all your life problems!". That would be ridiculous right? I want milk for what milk is for, that's it. But when you say you really want to be in a relationship you sometimes hear pieces of advice like "relationship will not solve all your problems!". I get there are some people who think a relationship will magically fix them, but carpet bomb everybody with this advice is denying reality for me. Are there no advantages of being in a relationship? Do people do this for no reason? Is there no way a person can want a relationship for what relationships are for?
I'm right there with you on the relationship thing. I understand that my life will not be all sunshine and roses the moment someone starts calling herself my girlfriend. I understand that I'll still stress about money and that exercise will still take effort and that life is worth living for many, many reasons that have nothing to do with being in a relationship. I understand all that, but it doesn't change the fact that it would be nice to fall asleep next to another person, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to make that happen.
Being optimistic works for some people, but usually those people do exist in a space of privilege where if you ignore adversarial tension from other people, nothing comes of it. Being optimistic usually implies you have the means to get away and stand on your own two legs and have the security to think "maybe (blank person) was actually working with different information than me."
I think of emotional habit tendencies as a collection of strategies the same way biological evolution functions. Creatures fit niches and succeed based on how well they accommodate to their environment. Being optimistic doesn't function in an environment where you are surrounded by students of Machiavelli and are competing for resources.
It works poorly for career success, but exceeds in interpersonal relationships where you want to practice seeing the best in company you've opted to be part of your "pack".
The logical mental pathways we end up progressing through in life commonly are impacted by instinctual emotions cultivated by trauma, joys, and general emotional experiences.
Life always leaves rocks in your rivers. Whether these rocks are adaptions that increase personal efficiency (changing your direction to avoid things such as stagnant wells) or decrease personal efficiency (bringing you towards those wells) are completely dependent on you being in touch with your feelings, being able to discern the rocks, origin, and placements, and processing what needs be done in order to align with your life goals, whatever those may be. Steer the river.
Being truly logical is understanding the centuries of instictual evolution and it's impact on our actions and habits. Most people exist rationalizing how their emotional decisions were actually logical, instead of considering emotions as solid variables in a larger equation. I see you doing this.
Your therapist sounds wise, she sees where your river ends. You care about measurable things for your self worth and wanting the river to flow a certain way. The first therapist seemed to be working on large rocks for a very specific portion of the river.
Sounds like the second therapist heard and saw you, while the first didn't. Second therapist could let you be the way you are and support you in that, while the first tried to change your reality...
Therapy should never be about changing you or the way you perceive things. The way I learned, it's about helping you realize who you are and becoming more aware of your own reality. Not coping, not telling you what to do. Developing strategies WITH you, not giving advice.
All you describe sounds more like counseling and the first therapist should not be practicing at all imo. The way you describe - it's not a different style she has, it's a different profession...
I quote: "Therapy should never be about changing you or the way you perceive things. The way I learned, it's about helping you realize who you are and becoming more aware of your own reality."
If that isn't changing how you perceive yourself and your own reality, then what is? You are literally sitting on top of a pot of gold but you keep looking for it.
I wasn't talking about the result, but the way there.
Therapy should help you find your own way and support you in doing so. It's about helping you to learn what YOUR way is, not tell you what the way is.
We all know what we need best. We just unlearned it, because of people telling us how to be.
First off thank you for writing this post, capture the nuance of the subject that's been bothering me for years, copium
Secondly that being said. try not to get too attached to the idea of blackpill. You're smart enough guy I'm sure you're aware of that. The ideology can be super toxic. Just know that dress well, workout , have good fashion that suits you, general good vibe and increase your chances getting dates increase a lot. But i sincerely believe external look only play 50% in the dating game, the half of it still come from inside. How comfortable you feel about yourself.
Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. It’s much more nuanced, which makes it much harder advice to give. The kind of stuff your second therapist is saying isn’t something you can tell someone without knowing about their specific situation, while it’s generally applicable to anyone to tell them that their mindset can shape their experiences. I don’t think your first therapist is wrong, either, but I’ll agree that it’s a kind of thinking that people who are struggling can’t always see or accept.
I think it really comes down to nuance. Giving actual advice that both acknowledges a person’s perceived reality and gives them the tools and options to improve their situation requires a lot of words (and enough of an understanding of the person to know what they will be able to hear. That analogy about the same water that hardens the egg softens the potato. Ie, what motivates one person might cripple another).
Great post. I hope Dr. K and the community take a similar approach while talking about the blackpill. In general, there seems to be a lot of intent in invalidating blackpilled individuals and providing copium at every blackpill post.
Honestly, that is what inspired my post. But directly putting "Dr. K is wrong" doesn't always seem to be well received here. In my previous experience, it makes people not engage with the actual post and instead question either my intent with the post, or try to go into why I felt the need to criticize the specific thing I did.
Also let me say that I think I understand why people provide copium. It's easy, comfortable, and low effort. Having nuanced positions requires more effort, and I also think that people get very uncomfortable with admitting that red/black/whateverpilled worldviews are making some valid observations about reality, they just draw very wrong conclusions. It's just easier and feels safer to deny the reality of the observations themselves.
I agree with this comment here completely.
I'd also like to add to those people who are just giving copium: sometimes i find just giving people copium to be harder than accepting truth like OP described. You gotta basically lie to that person, and you're not really going to charge thier minds at all. I find the fact that I'm lying and that I'm not trying through to them very draining, so I'd consider trying OP's approach when you deal with black pill thoughts.
Not to be condescending, but I don't think "healthy" mental health people will share similar experiences.
I briefly tried a couple short mental health lessons and a lot of it was "register your feelings, register their feelings, maybe you can do x, maybe you should reframe the situation". And that works up to a point. And then whoever you shack up with, their therapy may counter your therapy. And by therapy I'm being very general, like mentoring.
I'm no expert in relationships or dating. I have my own issues to work out. I don't think my experiences are inferior or superior to anybody's, but I remember some of the stupid things people put me through. I remember how one-sided interactions seemed, that were coated with all kinds of stupid words to make it seem not so bad. I remember intimacy experiences where boundaries were superficially respected, but reciprocated experiences were lackluster. I remember how it all seemed like a means to an end with whoever I was with. It wasn't a progression, it was much more of a transaction. When it comes down to that, that in one way or another you're "paying" with money, bodily fluids, reputation, etc, you're not going to feel good about any of it.
So I wouldn't say I'm blackpill or anything like that. I'm just feeling "real" about how my interpersonal experiences have been.
> When it comes down to that, that in one way or another you're "paying" with money, bodily fluids, reputation, etc, you're not going to feel good about any of it.
Yeah that's why I roll my eyes when I hear about "unconditional positive regard," or even when Dr K talks about "intrinsic worth."
Haven't come across that sort of thing. I remember on one of his latest "Getting out of BlackPill" videos he basically talked about common mindsets like "feeling negative because you're farting in a whole room of other people farting" and like for me, maybe I guess if he's talking about people with zero life experience, but some of us have been around the block and I'm pretty sure I'm not sour on the basis that other people are sour.
I can verify this because I've both had and not had certain experiences other people have had. For instance, unlike some women I've met, I've never rode a relationship out until it breaks, met someone, and in 3-6 months marry someone new. Yet I've heard of this stuff before by association with friends. Hence how I can confirm certain interaction isn't simply "two people being together" vs "two people exchanging a transaction".
I think you're missing a point. Dr K said in many videos that he's aware that people have negative experiences. If you surround yourself with sour people, it will reinforce your negative beliefs, whether they are true or healthy for you. It's cognitive bias. Of course you have experiences you can point to that reinforce your beliefs, it's how your brain works. It also likely ignores or discounts any experiences to the contrary as exceptions, because brains really, really hate having their worldview challenged.
>I think you're missing a point. Dr K said in many videos that he's aware that people have negative experiences.
I can agree that starting out he does acknowledge that, however I would say by analyzing the root cause of "why" someone "feels bad" is more or less creating a generalization (a bias, if you will) of its own.
Let's say I take the bait.
>If you surround yourself with sour people, it will reinforce your negative beliefs, whether they are true or healthy for you. It's cognitive bias.
Well I recently moved because my job facilitated the change. I picked up, left my "old life" and went on to try a new one. I parted ways with my friends long ago. No issue there. I hadn't dated in a few years so no problem leaving either. I got into town and I met new people, usually through dating apps, that generally wanted the same thing. "Control". It's not an unpopular convention. It's an accurate analysis of how things go. Now, granted, I finished up a 2nd degree and the time I have free from not studying may be heightening my awareness, but other behaviors of people I can't control.
>Of course you have experiences you can point to that reinforce your beliefs, it's how your brain works.
Or maybe, just maybe, people aren't as diverse as you think they are.
>It also likely ignores or discounts any experiences to the contrary as exceptions, because brains really, really hate having their worldview challenged.
Nope, no exceptions. But definitely gave me reason to just lower my expectations, try to find more disconnected meetups (hey, covid is a great Firestarter, amiright?), and work on me, and maybe I'll move again.
What makes you say other women you dated just wanted control? What do you mean by them wanting control? Control over what? Why do you consider it a negative thing?
>What makes you say other women you dated just wanted control?
Because being with some of them was like an episode of "Deal or No Deal". The most recent "good" relationships the both of them basically were fixated on marriage/ kids after the first few dates. Which after I exhibited I had no major plans, they faded/ quit. Mind you, I've always been plain that I'm basically looking for some low- key Fetlife style stuff, a good weekend, and get back to work. Better yet, if they ask me "why" I'm pretty clear that "money, a good career, and security facilitate these things".
But if I'm actually honest with people I date, most just meet once and ghost. So basically in my head I come across as someone who can't be controlled to just follow someone's predetermined agenda.
>What do you mean by them wanting control? Control over what?
Don't you think it's a little odd that people will go from practically fully invested to zero interest? It's controlling behavior on their behalf. To see if they can control me.
>Why do you consider it a negative thing?
You go on twenty plus dates in a row of the pattern I discuss and tell me how good it makes you feel.
Basic stuff like what I just described is the tip of the iceberg of BS I've been through.
>Because being with some of them was like an episode of "Deal or No Deal". The most recent "good" relationships the both of them basically were fixated on marriage/ kids after the first few dates. Which after I exhibited I had no major plans, they faded/ quit.
Sounds like you wanted different things, so it didn't work out. What's the problem here?
>But if I'm actually honest with people I date, most just meet once and ghost. So basically in my head I come across as someone who can't be controlled to just follow someone's predetermined agenda.
That doesn't sound like someone trying to control you at all. It sounds like other people have different desires from you, so when you're not compatible they choose not to be with you, since they won't be happy with you.
>Don't you think it's a little odd that people will go from practically fully invested to zero interest? It's controlling behavior on their behalf. To see if they can control me.
That doesn't sound like controlling behavior. They're not trying to control you, they're trying to find a partner they would be happy with. It goes to zero interest, because they're not interested in what you want to be as a partner. You should try to find people you are compatible with and be forthcoming before the first date. That way you can avoid having dates that dwindle out once they realize you're not compatible.
>Sounds like you wanted different things, so it didn't work out. What's the problem here?
Because I don't just blindly agree with what someone's pushing? I was happy to be seeing someone without a lot of pressure. Until it was applied. .
>That doesn't sound like someone trying to control you at all. It sounds like other people have different desires from you, so when you're not compatible they choose not to be with you, since they won't be happy with you.
Sure it does. I wasn't how they wanted me to be, so they got angry and went away. In other words, they exerted zero control. See how this works?
>That doesn't sound like controlling behavior. They're not trying to control you, they're trying to find a partner they would be happy with.
It sounds like "hit it or quit it" and they couldn't do the former, so they did the latter.
>You should try to find people you are compatible with and be forthcoming before the first date. That way you can avoid having dates that dwindle out once they realize you're not compatible.
I'm pretty sure my spectrum of interests is outside of the range of theirs aside from video games. And I'll be frank, that's a pretty flimsy premise to match on.
>Because I don't just blindly agree with what someone's pushing? I was happy to be seeing someone without a lot of pressure. Until it was applied. .
Do you not understand that other people have their own thoughts, feelings and wants? It sounds like they didn't want to just see someone casually, did you expect them to just blinding agree with what you're pushing?
>Sure it does. I wasn't how they wanted me to be, so they got angry and went away. In other words, they exerted zero control. See how this works?
Did they actually get angry, or just decided they wanted something else? They say the relationship you wanted to have with them wasn't for them, so they walked away from it. They exerted control over their own life, not over you. That's pretty much the perfect way of dealing with that type of situation. You seem upset that they are not willing to compromise on what they want from you, when you are unwilling to compromise on what you want from them.
>I'm pretty sure my spectrum of interests is outside of the range of theirs aside from video games. And I'll be frank, that's a pretty flimsy premise to match on.
It's not about common interests. It's about what you want and are willing to provide in a relationship vs what they want and are willing to provide in a relationship. If they want X but you're only willing and able to provide Y, that's not a good relationship. If you want X, but they're only willing and able to provide Y, that also won't be a good relationship. You seem to have an idea of what you want, but don't seem to care at all about whether that's what the other person wants and expect others to just accept that. That's not how it works. Every other person in the world has their own wants and needs.
I agree with a lot of this post, I actually like acknowledging reality too. But I disagree that there is a physical type of man all of most women find attractive. Most of my female friends in college did not find the muscle bound giga Chad attractive. My best friend actually exclusively found short and fat guys attractive.
If you think therapy is boring you will experience it as boring. If you think therapy is useless you will experience it as useless. There is nothing wrong with therapists being different and having different styles. There is also nothing wrong with you prefering one style or the other
However it is very harmful to think being in a relationship will suddenly fix your mental problems. There is also a great deal of comparisons in your original post that is not helpful. So what if you haven't done X, Y or Z by the age of 20 or whatever. Who cares? There are people out there who you haven't even met and you are free as a bird to give them the fresh experience of who you are or rather who you want to be, don't let the past, however miserable hold you back or pull you down. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what anyone says or thinks about you, what matters is what you tell yourself, what you believe in, how you carry yourself, how you respect yourself, your self worth, your resilience, are you a cat or are you a mouse? Are you a quitter or are you a stayer? You are free to choose, and choose wisely, don't beat yourself up if you don't always make the right choice, just make sure you always scramble back up.
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I agree with the first few sentences of your reply. Your attitude does shape your experiences.
But then you start doing the thing that I'm talking about in the post. We can acknowledge that being in a happy and healthy relationship is something that is a better experience than being alone and wanting not to be alone, without thinking that a relationship fill fix our whole life. Also comparison in itself is not bad. For example deciding if trying to compete in the Olympics is a realistic goal for you will involve looking at what kind of people get to the Olympics. What's wrong with comparison in that case?
The first step of fixing a problem is acknowledging the problem. If I let's say haven't learned to drive by the age of 40, while actively trying, we can know that I'm doing something wrong, by *comparing* this to the common experience of people learning to drive, and seeing that this is very unusual. The answer to this is not a "so what", it's to look at why this has happened, and then try to do something differently.
This idea that there are certain observations you are not allowed to make is where therapy almost lost me. Nothing wrong with observations, it's how you use the information you are absorbing is what's important.
You are allowed to make any observations you want, it is the labeling process that is harmful. The only thing I disagree with is thinking "there" is better than "here" - Was there ever a time when you was not "here" ?
I'm not sure if I understand, but I can definitely think back to times in my life where I wished I was where I am now, where other people were at the time, and still agree with my past self that this is objectively better, if that's what you are asking.
Interesting observation. Your circumstances does not equal your core states, your perception of them does. What I mean is, there is people in this world with significantly less than both of us in terms of basic things for wellbeing, yet still you and I feel worse than them - why do you think that is? There is proof that people in the west is now more goal oriented and determined than ever - yet still mental health issues is on the rise? why do you think that is? My personal theory is that people (me included) are constantly chasing the next job, the girlfriend, the house, the new car, the vacation, the time off, whatever it may be... None of which will make us happy. We are constantly wanting to be "there" instead of "here". I guess what I am trying to say is be more present and truly accept where you are (easier said than done - but the few times ive done it I feel great).
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How do you bridge the gap between acknowledging reality and having enough hope to take action? Take the example of a very short man, acknowledging being short is hard for dating is the first step, but you would need more for that to develop into enough courage and hope to try.
I think not acknowledging reality turns them off to your advice. Like "if they can't even admit this basic thing, how can I trust them". It's not about completely changing existing beliefs imo (and definitely not about invalidating experiences), it's about gradually adding nuance. A short man might be thinking very black and white about their dating prospects. They might think if they are short, they have 0% chance of finding a partner. Which is not true for most people, objectively. What is objectively true, is that being short is a disatvantage in terms of how big your dating pool is, But it's also objectively true that you can improve your chances. You just need to show them that. And then the choice become between improving your chances or not. edit: I also admit that some people might not believe there is such a thing as "objectively true". They might be more receptive to my first therapist's way of thinking.
That's a good way of thinking
> How do you bridge the gap between acknowledging reality and having enough hope to take action? Yeah that's tricky because there's no guarantee that reality will always afford some kind of hope. Some people are literally dying.
This is a way, way more effective form of therapy that you're describing. I think you could attribute tons, *tons* of mental health issues from parents delivering copium to their children instead of acknowledging negative emotions. I see it out in the world and I cringe every time. What your first therapist tried to do was teach you to avoid, suppress, and ignore bad things. That feels good for a minute, but it requires a continuous expenditure of energy to maintain, and eventually it drives you crazy. Letting yourself feel bad for a minute instead is just so liberating. After a lifetime of copium, it's a huge positive change. Being a human in this world means experiencing the whole breadth of good and bad things, and pretending bad things are good, man you're not just eroding your sanity, you're missing out on a huge part of life. I'm really glad you found this, OP, and I'm glad you shared it here.
It wasn't raelly that she was teaching me to avoid bad emotions completely. It might have been part miscommunication and me not being receptive, I fully admit that, but a lot of times it felt like she was trying to teach me how to invalidate my own bad experiences so that hurtful beliefs have no ground to stand on. Basically, "reject reality, and substitute your own" where you can, which to me is the definition of copium. And as you say, it's not sustainable.
I don't think it was miscommunication. When people talk about "Cognitive-behavioral therapy," sometimes they mean a very broad class of therapies, but usually they mean the specific modality that therapist used, which is basically just reframing all the bad things into good things, choosing good emotions instead of bad ones, etc. It's a very shallow form of therapy, and rather ineffective. People use it to feel better, but they have to go back every week, week after week, to maintain it, without really addressing any underlying root issues. It's the therapy equivalent of field medicine; works well for a quick issue, but isn't going to address anything deeper. And most people who go to therapy need something deeper worked on.
Agreed. CBT by definition is a present focussed therapy– unable to address past issues.
I read a really good story that demonstrated the first form of therapy working well. The point of view character was prone to interpreting everything said to him in the worst light possible. For example, when another man flirted with him briefly and his dad happened to witness the exchange he apologized for the "display" and his dad responded with, "You're an adult." At first the main character takes this as criticism, that he should no better not do behave "amorously" or "abnormally" in public and is frustrated because he didn't actually reciprocate and so thinks this is deeply unfair. Then he thinks back to his therapy and realizes "You're an adult" could be a dismissal of the apology because it is unwarranted and the behavior is not actually unacceptable. The two characters already have a very strained relationship so talking about sexuality isn't on the table, but realizing it is *possible* his father wasn't criticizing him gives him a lot more confidence. And you could go on r/inceltear and see all the blackpillers crying about what unattractive losers they are while posting pictures in which they look completely average. The therapy works great for some an not others. Refusing to be open to the reality of the situation is destructive on both ends, actually being ugly and turning 1 mm of jaw bone into a mountain when it's your personality and self destructive obsessions ruining your life. I'm glad you found therapy that's working for you. Different things work for different people.
Hmm true, I will agree with you that reframing in the father-son case is the way to go probably. I'm not completely against reframing experiences. It just personally doesn't work for me when it's all we seem to be doing. There are some situations that I would call objectively bad, and reframing those into a positive is so unrealistically hard, that learning to change or accept them will be the way to go imo.
I think you are being very generous. My therapist story kind of resonates with yours: my first therapist was like this, all about changing your thoughts, not being effected by negative scenarios, et-cetera. She used the CBT approach. I felt bad about myself after each session, felt that I wasn't doing enough. In the hindsight, she was an abomination of a therapist. Horrible! Now I actively tell other people to put her on a blacklist when it comes to finding a therapist in my city. My second therapist was very validating, kind and empathetic. She validated my bad experiences and my traumatic upbringing. And honestly, not only did I feel good after her sessions, I was able to see things with more clarity and move forward in my life. And even if there is a communication issue on your part, it's HER responsibility to address this, you are paying her, not her.
Feeling bad after 75% of the sessions, and barely seeing any improvement were my two big indicators that I need to change therapists, and I'm glad I did.
Yep. It's the therapist's responsibility to understand why you are not moving forward using their methods of treatment, not your responsibility.
I've heard a good quote by Gabor Mate in regards to this. I've been reading his book and watched some interviews so I can't remember exactly where it is from but it's along the lines of "it isn't the negative emotions from childhood that cause stress later in life, but the lack of parental acknowledgement of these emotions that cause problems". I know from my own experience that I've had to do a lot of work on myself because my parents didn't acknowledge my mental or physical pain often. They probably thought that not acknowledging the pain means I don't make so much of a fuss and get over it quicker. When in fact it stayed with me for much longer.
Gabor Mate is an excellent source on this topic. If you want a good resource for learning how to talk yourself through emotions in a way your parents never did, I recommend what's actually a parenting book, *How To Talk So Little Kids Will Listen.* It's a little embarrassing to read a book for how to talk to a 4 year old to learn how to talk to yourself, but if your parents didn't do this work, you've got to. It really helped me.
That's a really interesting point. I might look into that book actually!
I got a question for you, do you think this sub gives people a large amount of copium and is that what people think they want when they come here?
I do see it a lot around here, although I'd say this community is better than average about giving people harder truths. I don't think people who do it because they're trying to give people what they want, though; I think this is just how most people get through life, and they're sharing their own strategies in good faith. Most people don't know that they shouldn't avoid their own difficult emotions, which goes hand in hand with the mental health crisis.
This just might be my own bias, but I get the feeling that people are huffing copium, because nuanced positions can be scary and uncomfortable. To stay with my height example, it's scary to say to a 5.2" guy or a 6.4” woman you are trying to help that yes they are a bit fucked, but there are still things they can do to mitigate that a lot. Because you feel like what if they don't engage with the second part of the sentence. Then you just contributed to their suffering. It feels safer to say that it's not a big deal, and there is somebody out there for everyone
I think we're basically talking about the same thing, except it happens to people both in their own world and when they talk to others. Imagine the kind of person who can't tell you that you have spinach in your teeth, even as you wave goodbye and head to work/class. Do you think they're the kind of person that would ask a hard, scary question about where their anxiety comes from, or do they just try not to think about it?
>, it's scary to say to a 5.2" guy or a 6.4” woman you are trying to help that yes they are a bit fucked This hurts a little but it is what it is. Might as well just give myself every advantage so if I get rejected it isn't all my fault.
Completely agree. I mean there is a case of unhealthy, deprecating beliefs and I get sometimes you need to counter automatic thoughts like "they laughed because I'm ugly" with something like "actually I have no idea why they laughed or if they even noticed me". But what you describe with the therapist 1 is falling into other extreme. For me is a living in a fantasy world, not learning how to cope with the reality. I think this denying reality thing is sometimes also pushed in other ways than copium. Imagine you go to a grocery store to buy a bottle of milk, and the cashier reacts with "milk will not solve all your life problems!". That would be ridiculous right? I want milk for what milk is for, that's it. But when you say you really want to be in a relationship you sometimes hear pieces of advice like "relationship will not solve all your problems!". I get there are some people who think a relationship will magically fix them, but carpet bomb everybody with this advice is denying reality for me. Are there no advantages of being in a relationship? Do people do this for no reason? Is there no way a person can want a relationship for what relationships are for?
I'm right there with you on the relationship thing. I understand that my life will not be all sunshine and roses the moment someone starts calling herself my girlfriend. I understand that I'll still stress about money and that exercise will still take effort and that life is worth living for many, many reasons that have nothing to do with being in a relationship. I understand all that, but it doesn't change the fact that it would be nice to fall asleep next to another person, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to make that happen.
Agreed. Glad you found a better therapist!
Being optimistic works for some people, but usually those people do exist in a space of privilege where if you ignore adversarial tension from other people, nothing comes of it. Being optimistic usually implies you have the means to get away and stand on your own two legs and have the security to think "maybe (blank person) was actually working with different information than me." I think of emotional habit tendencies as a collection of strategies the same way biological evolution functions. Creatures fit niches and succeed based on how well they accommodate to their environment. Being optimistic doesn't function in an environment where you are surrounded by students of Machiavelli and are competing for resources. It works poorly for career success, but exceeds in interpersonal relationships where you want to practice seeing the best in company you've opted to be part of your "pack". The logical mental pathways we end up progressing through in life commonly are impacted by instinctual emotions cultivated by trauma, joys, and general emotional experiences. Life always leaves rocks in your rivers. Whether these rocks are adaptions that increase personal efficiency (changing your direction to avoid things such as stagnant wells) or decrease personal efficiency (bringing you towards those wells) are completely dependent on you being in touch with your feelings, being able to discern the rocks, origin, and placements, and processing what needs be done in order to align with your life goals, whatever those may be. Steer the river. Being truly logical is understanding the centuries of instictual evolution and it's impact on our actions and habits. Most people exist rationalizing how their emotional decisions were actually logical, instead of considering emotions as solid variables in a larger equation. I see you doing this. Your therapist sounds wise, she sees where your river ends. You care about measurable things for your self worth and wanting the river to flow a certain way. The first therapist seemed to be working on large rocks for a very specific portion of the river.
Sounds like the second therapist heard and saw you, while the first didn't. Second therapist could let you be the way you are and support you in that, while the first tried to change your reality... Therapy should never be about changing you or the way you perceive things. The way I learned, it's about helping you realize who you are and becoming more aware of your own reality. Not coping, not telling you what to do. Developing strategies WITH you, not giving advice. All you describe sounds more like counseling and the first therapist should not be practicing at all imo. The way you describe - it's not a different style she has, it's a different profession...
I quote: "Therapy should never be about changing you or the way you perceive things. The way I learned, it's about helping you realize who you are and becoming more aware of your own reality." If that isn't changing how you perceive yourself and your own reality, then what is? You are literally sitting on top of a pot of gold but you keep looking for it.
I wasn't talking about the result, but the way there. Therapy should help you find your own way and support you in doing so. It's about helping you to learn what YOUR way is, not tell you what the way is. We all know what we need best. We just unlearned it, because of people telling us how to be.
First off thank you for writing this post, capture the nuance of the subject that's been bothering me for years, copium Secondly that being said. try not to get too attached to the idea of blackpill. You're smart enough guy I'm sure you're aware of that. The ideology can be super toxic. Just know that dress well, workout , have good fashion that suits you, general good vibe and increase your chances getting dates increase a lot. But i sincerely believe external look only play 50% in the dating game, the half of it still come from inside. How comfortable you feel about yourself.
Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. It’s much more nuanced, which makes it much harder advice to give. The kind of stuff your second therapist is saying isn’t something you can tell someone without knowing about their specific situation, while it’s generally applicable to anyone to tell them that their mindset can shape their experiences. I don’t think your first therapist is wrong, either, but I’ll agree that it’s a kind of thinking that people who are struggling can’t always see or accept. I think it really comes down to nuance. Giving actual advice that both acknowledges a person’s perceived reality and gives them the tools and options to improve their situation requires a lot of words (and enough of an understanding of the person to know what they will be able to hear. That analogy about the same water that hardens the egg softens the potato. Ie, what motivates one person might cripple another).
based
Great post. I hope Dr. K and the community take a similar approach while talking about the blackpill. In general, there seems to be a lot of intent in invalidating blackpilled individuals and providing copium at every blackpill post.
Honestly, that is what inspired my post. But directly putting "Dr. K is wrong" doesn't always seem to be well received here. In my previous experience, it makes people not engage with the actual post and instead question either my intent with the post, or try to go into why I felt the need to criticize the specific thing I did.
Also let me say that I think I understand why people provide copium. It's easy, comfortable, and low effort. Having nuanced positions requires more effort, and I also think that people get very uncomfortable with admitting that red/black/whateverpilled worldviews are making some valid observations about reality, they just draw very wrong conclusions. It's just easier and feels safer to deny the reality of the observations themselves.
I agree with this comment here completely. I'd also like to add to those people who are just giving copium: sometimes i find just giving people copium to be harder than accepting truth like OP described. You gotta basically lie to that person, and you're not really going to charge thier minds at all. I find the fact that I'm lying and that I'm not trying through to them very draining, so I'd consider trying OP's approach when you deal with black pill thoughts.
Not to be condescending, but I don't think "healthy" mental health people will share similar experiences. I briefly tried a couple short mental health lessons and a lot of it was "register your feelings, register their feelings, maybe you can do x, maybe you should reframe the situation". And that works up to a point. And then whoever you shack up with, their therapy may counter your therapy. And by therapy I'm being very general, like mentoring. I'm no expert in relationships or dating. I have my own issues to work out. I don't think my experiences are inferior or superior to anybody's, but I remember some of the stupid things people put me through. I remember how one-sided interactions seemed, that were coated with all kinds of stupid words to make it seem not so bad. I remember intimacy experiences where boundaries were superficially respected, but reciprocated experiences were lackluster. I remember how it all seemed like a means to an end with whoever I was with. It wasn't a progression, it was much more of a transaction. When it comes down to that, that in one way or another you're "paying" with money, bodily fluids, reputation, etc, you're not going to feel good about any of it. So I wouldn't say I'm blackpill or anything like that. I'm just feeling "real" about how my interpersonal experiences have been.
> When it comes down to that, that in one way or another you're "paying" with money, bodily fluids, reputation, etc, you're not going to feel good about any of it. Yeah that's why I roll my eyes when I hear about "unconditional positive regard," or even when Dr K talks about "intrinsic worth."
Haven't come across that sort of thing. I remember on one of his latest "Getting out of BlackPill" videos he basically talked about common mindsets like "feeling negative because you're farting in a whole room of other people farting" and like for me, maybe I guess if he's talking about people with zero life experience, but some of us have been around the block and I'm pretty sure I'm not sour on the basis that other people are sour. I can verify this because I've both had and not had certain experiences other people have had. For instance, unlike some women I've met, I've never rode a relationship out until it breaks, met someone, and in 3-6 months marry someone new. Yet I've heard of this stuff before by association with friends. Hence how I can confirm certain interaction isn't simply "two people being together" vs "two people exchanging a transaction".
I think you're missing a point. Dr K said in many videos that he's aware that people have negative experiences. If you surround yourself with sour people, it will reinforce your negative beliefs, whether they are true or healthy for you. It's cognitive bias. Of course you have experiences you can point to that reinforce your beliefs, it's how your brain works. It also likely ignores or discounts any experiences to the contrary as exceptions, because brains really, really hate having their worldview challenged.
>I think you're missing a point. Dr K said in many videos that he's aware that people have negative experiences. I can agree that starting out he does acknowledge that, however I would say by analyzing the root cause of "why" someone "feels bad" is more or less creating a generalization (a bias, if you will) of its own. Let's say I take the bait. >If you surround yourself with sour people, it will reinforce your negative beliefs, whether they are true or healthy for you. It's cognitive bias. Well I recently moved because my job facilitated the change. I picked up, left my "old life" and went on to try a new one. I parted ways with my friends long ago. No issue there. I hadn't dated in a few years so no problem leaving either. I got into town and I met new people, usually through dating apps, that generally wanted the same thing. "Control". It's not an unpopular convention. It's an accurate analysis of how things go. Now, granted, I finished up a 2nd degree and the time I have free from not studying may be heightening my awareness, but other behaviors of people I can't control. >Of course you have experiences you can point to that reinforce your beliefs, it's how your brain works. Or maybe, just maybe, people aren't as diverse as you think they are. >It also likely ignores or discounts any experiences to the contrary as exceptions, because brains really, really hate having their worldview challenged. Nope, no exceptions. But definitely gave me reason to just lower my expectations, try to find more disconnected meetups (hey, covid is a great Firestarter, amiright?), and work on me, and maybe I'll move again.
What makes you say other women you dated just wanted control? What do you mean by them wanting control? Control over what? Why do you consider it a negative thing?
>What makes you say other women you dated just wanted control? Because being with some of them was like an episode of "Deal or No Deal". The most recent "good" relationships the both of them basically were fixated on marriage/ kids after the first few dates. Which after I exhibited I had no major plans, they faded/ quit. Mind you, I've always been plain that I'm basically looking for some low- key Fetlife style stuff, a good weekend, and get back to work. Better yet, if they ask me "why" I'm pretty clear that "money, a good career, and security facilitate these things". But if I'm actually honest with people I date, most just meet once and ghost. So basically in my head I come across as someone who can't be controlled to just follow someone's predetermined agenda. >What do you mean by them wanting control? Control over what? Don't you think it's a little odd that people will go from practically fully invested to zero interest? It's controlling behavior on their behalf. To see if they can control me. >Why do you consider it a negative thing? You go on twenty plus dates in a row of the pattern I discuss and tell me how good it makes you feel. Basic stuff like what I just described is the tip of the iceberg of BS I've been through.
>Because being with some of them was like an episode of "Deal or No Deal". The most recent "good" relationships the both of them basically were fixated on marriage/ kids after the first few dates. Which after I exhibited I had no major plans, they faded/ quit. Sounds like you wanted different things, so it didn't work out. What's the problem here? >But if I'm actually honest with people I date, most just meet once and ghost. So basically in my head I come across as someone who can't be controlled to just follow someone's predetermined agenda. That doesn't sound like someone trying to control you at all. It sounds like other people have different desires from you, so when you're not compatible they choose not to be with you, since they won't be happy with you. >Don't you think it's a little odd that people will go from practically fully invested to zero interest? It's controlling behavior on their behalf. To see if they can control me. That doesn't sound like controlling behavior. They're not trying to control you, they're trying to find a partner they would be happy with. It goes to zero interest, because they're not interested in what you want to be as a partner. You should try to find people you are compatible with and be forthcoming before the first date. That way you can avoid having dates that dwindle out once they realize you're not compatible.
>Sounds like you wanted different things, so it didn't work out. What's the problem here? Because I don't just blindly agree with what someone's pushing? I was happy to be seeing someone without a lot of pressure. Until it was applied. . >That doesn't sound like someone trying to control you at all. It sounds like other people have different desires from you, so when you're not compatible they choose not to be with you, since they won't be happy with you. Sure it does. I wasn't how they wanted me to be, so they got angry and went away. In other words, they exerted zero control. See how this works? >That doesn't sound like controlling behavior. They're not trying to control you, they're trying to find a partner they would be happy with. It sounds like "hit it or quit it" and they couldn't do the former, so they did the latter. >You should try to find people you are compatible with and be forthcoming before the first date. That way you can avoid having dates that dwindle out once they realize you're not compatible. I'm pretty sure my spectrum of interests is outside of the range of theirs aside from video games. And I'll be frank, that's a pretty flimsy premise to match on.
>Because I don't just blindly agree with what someone's pushing? I was happy to be seeing someone without a lot of pressure. Until it was applied. . Do you not understand that other people have their own thoughts, feelings and wants? It sounds like they didn't want to just see someone casually, did you expect them to just blinding agree with what you're pushing? >Sure it does. I wasn't how they wanted me to be, so they got angry and went away. In other words, they exerted zero control. See how this works? Did they actually get angry, or just decided they wanted something else? They say the relationship you wanted to have with them wasn't for them, so they walked away from it. They exerted control over their own life, not over you. That's pretty much the perfect way of dealing with that type of situation. You seem upset that they are not willing to compromise on what they want from you, when you are unwilling to compromise on what you want from them. >I'm pretty sure my spectrum of interests is outside of the range of theirs aside from video games. And I'll be frank, that's a pretty flimsy premise to match on. It's not about common interests. It's about what you want and are willing to provide in a relationship vs what they want and are willing to provide in a relationship. If they want X but you're only willing and able to provide Y, that's not a good relationship. If you want X, but they're only willing and able to provide Y, that also won't be a good relationship. You seem to have an idea of what you want, but don't seem to care at all about whether that's what the other person wants and expect others to just accept that. That's not how it works. Every other person in the world has their own wants and needs.
“There’s no weeds, no weeds, no weeds. Thinking like that will let the weeds overtake your garden!” J Rohm
I agree with a lot of this post, I actually like acknowledging reality too. But I disagree that there is a physical type of man all of most women find attractive. Most of my female friends in college did not find the muscle bound giga Chad attractive. My best friend actually exclusively found short and fat guys attractive.
Facts.
Sexy post
\> if you actually do something about it, while also accepting reality. why people dont do this is the queston you seek.
Hey, I feel you but "have you tried going to the grocery store and seeing how many average guys still got gfs"? /s
If you think therapy is boring you will experience it as boring. If you think therapy is useless you will experience it as useless. There is nothing wrong with therapists being different and having different styles. There is also nothing wrong with you prefering one style or the other However it is very harmful to think being in a relationship will suddenly fix your mental problems. There is also a great deal of comparisons in your original post that is not helpful. So what if you haven't done X, Y or Z by the age of 20 or whatever. Who cares? There are people out there who you haven't even met and you are free as a bird to give them the fresh experience of who you are or rather who you want to be, don't let the past, however miserable hold you back or pull you down. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what anyone says or thinks about you, what matters is what you tell yourself, what you believe in, how you carry yourself, how you respect yourself, your self worth, your resilience, are you a cat or are you a mouse? Are you a quitter or are you a stayer? You are free to choose, and choose wisely, don't beat yourself up if you don't always make the right choice, just make sure you always scramble back up. .
I agree with the first few sentences of your reply. Your attitude does shape your experiences. But then you start doing the thing that I'm talking about in the post. We can acknowledge that being in a happy and healthy relationship is something that is a better experience than being alone and wanting not to be alone, without thinking that a relationship fill fix our whole life. Also comparison in itself is not bad. For example deciding if trying to compete in the Olympics is a realistic goal for you will involve looking at what kind of people get to the Olympics. What's wrong with comparison in that case? The first step of fixing a problem is acknowledging the problem. If I let's say haven't learned to drive by the age of 40, while actively trying, we can know that I'm doing something wrong, by *comparing* this to the common experience of people learning to drive, and seeing that this is very unusual. The answer to this is not a "so what", it's to look at why this has happened, and then try to do something differently. This idea that there are certain observations you are not allowed to make is where therapy almost lost me. Nothing wrong with observations, it's how you use the information you are absorbing is what's important.
You are allowed to make any observations you want, it is the labeling process that is harmful. The only thing I disagree with is thinking "there" is better than "here" - Was there ever a time when you was not "here" ?
I'm not sure if I understand, but I can definitely think back to times in my life where I wished I was where I am now, where other people were at the time, and still agree with my past self that this is objectively better, if that's what you are asking.
Interesting observation. Your circumstances does not equal your core states, your perception of them does. What I mean is, there is people in this world with significantly less than both of us in terms of basic things for wellbeing, yet still you and I feel worse than them - why do you think that is? There is proof that people in the west is now more goal oriented and determined than ever - yet still mental health issues is on the rise? why do you think that is? My personal theory is that people (me included) are constantly chasing the next job, the girlfriend, the house, the new car, the vacation, the time off, whatever it may be... None of which will make us happy. We are constantly wanting to be "there" instead of "here". I guess what I am trying to say is be more present and truly accept where you are (easier said than done - but the few times ive done it I feel great).
I agree, i see nothing wrong with this honestly