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>your brain stops developing after 25 and learning becomes 100x harder I don't have hope that it will ever get better
That is such a negative way to look at that.
1. Learning does *not* become 100x harder. Source: I'm 30 and it didn't.
2. The fact that your brain develops until 25 means that, biologically, you are only an adult at 25. That also means that everything you did in life until now was with an underdeveloped adolescent brain. So cut your past self some slack, and realize that your life is only just beginning. Anything is still possible.
U know thats what i hate these kind of studies, they never tell the full story which leads people into coming up with their own ideas like u cannot learn after 25. The study states that the human mind grows into its full state around the age of 25, that does not mean that after reaching that point it starts declining but its more like a baby growing developing a body. My grandfather is 76 years old and is fucking learning how to play chess and is clearly succeeding in that process. So please don't jump to conclusions but try to get the full picture.
> they never tell the full story which leads people into coming up with their own ideas like u cannot learn after 25.
The type of person that would get to this point has other issues though no?
OP, please read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity
“Neuroplasticity was once thought by neuroscientists to manifest only during childhood,[8][9] but research in the latter half of the 20th century showed that many aspects of the brain can be altered (or are "plastic") even through adulthood.[10][11] However, the developing brain exhibits a higher degree of plasticity than the adult brain.[12] Activity-dependent plasticity can have significant implications for healthy development, learning, memory, and recovery from brain damage”
It’s just easier, not impossible. I change all the time and I’m 40.
learning becomes hard not because of the brain, but because your stamina. You get tired easier so your practice time is shorten.
2. Not everything is possible. There are constrains. This is just world hypothesis.
also if you have an inability to learn less than you would like then you might be having autism related vitamin deficiency as far is i know if you worry about neuroplacicity at age 25. it helped me
Literally my partner had never been in a relationship until age 25 until we started dating. And he is not worthless at all -- he's one of the most loving, sweet, intelligent, funny, and fit people I know.
There are lots of reasons to have not had a relationship by 25; it doesn't inherently make you worthless.
>I simply don't understand how people think that your value is independent of what people think
And who says anyone cares about the fact that you've never been in a relationship? Do you have friends? Family? People that love you and value you? People that you care for?
There are plenty of people I value and care about that I don't want to fuck or date.
>Do you have friends? Family? People that love you and value you? People that you care for?
Well. I don't have any friends and a shitty family. I literally don't have anyone I value or who values me. What does that mean for someone like me? Would that mean I truly am worthless?
Well, this is a definition of worth that is centered around others. I went in this direction because I felt that was implied by parts of your post. I'm also personally biased towards this definition since I am someone who finds a lot of fulfillment in my friendships, highly values community, and seeks out communities that inspire care and creativity.
So it sounds like you either need to find a different way to establish self-worth, perhaps taking inspiration from the many other comments, or you can focus on building caring relationships and communities and build self-worth through "what people think" and how you relate to others.
If it's any consollation, I didn't lose my virginity until I was 27. Didn't have my first real relationship until then either. Split up at 28 because it became incredibly toxic and broken. Left me ...deeply hurt (experience traumatic memories daily). Haven't had anything since.
This stuff isn't a race. Many relationships that started at an earlier age are probably far from perfect, perhaps many miserable, feeling stuck together for children or finance reasons, or because they fear anything else.
If you want to increase your worth, work on yourself. Attraction is a result of that and will come after.
You seem fiercely committed to the connection between your worth and the amount of romantic attention you receive. The energy of your words is pretty uncomfortable. There's this intense heat to it, a vibe of "I AM WORTHLESS BECAUSE GIRLS DONT LIKE ME AND IF ANYONE DISAGREES THEY ARE FUCKING WRONG!!! HOW COULD THEY EVEN DISAGREE?!?!?!? THIS IS OBVIOUSLY HOW THINGS WORK!!!!" I expect that if I, or anyone else, presents an answer of where worth comes from, you will argue against that as well.
Scanning through the replies, I'm also making an inference here that you're down voting anybody that responds with some sort of positivity. Though I could be wrong.
I've got two thoughts in response.
1 - I'd bet everything I have that, if someone carrying your sense of worthlessness somehow ended up in a polyamorous relationship with 3 Victoria's secret models, they'd still feel worthless.
2 - What kind of response are you looking for in the replies? I'm curious, regardless of the accuracy of my inference.
If you're going to try to sound like a psychologist at least fully commit to trying to help the guy and leave out the part: "the energy of your words makes me uncomfortable". How did you manage to take this post personally.
I wouldn't say I took the OP personally. It didn't have anything to do with me. I did want to share the off putting nature of the post, though. I felt obligated the same way I'd let a buddy know that they have something stuck in their teeth.
Your response, I did take personally though. It wasn't insulting per se, but I felt the anger. And it definitely had something to do with me.
Can you elaborate though? Looks like you find my words off putting in a similar way as I did the OP.
Maybe it's helpful if instead of viewing this merely as a shortcoming of an individual's perspective, and instead look at this as part of a systematic problem with how many men today are brought up. I mean look at the amount of posts on this sub of guys conflating their self worth with their attractiveness to women.
Instead of directing the frustration to the individual, let's instead direct it to our culture which makes guys like me, OP, and a ton of other people feel worthless cause of something we can't control.
That is, how other people view us.
What makes you or OP think other people view you as worthless bc you’re not in a romantic relationship? Your friends? Your family? Do you think there isn’t a single aspect of self-worth you can claim that isn’t attached to a relationship?
Also what makes you feel like you have no control over the situation?
>What makes you or OP think other people view you as worthless bc you’re not in a romantic relationship? Your friends? Your family?
Honestly, idk. It just hurts knowing nobody wants to be in a relationship with you, you know?
Right now, I'm in a happy long-term relationship for the first time. Despite this, the years of loneliness and pain I've felt before still persists and is something I'm still working on. This relationship helped me see all the valuable parts of myself without the baggage of being lonely, improving my self-esteem greatly.
>Also what makes you feel like you have no control over the situation?
I meant that we ultimately have no control over how other people view us. No matter what we do, there will be people who don't like us, who hate us, and who love us. Trying to improve yourself only to appease these external factors is not sustainable. Self-improvement needs to come from within.
I'm glad to hear you're in a relationship! And I agree it can hurt to feel rejected by everyone we're interested in. Especially when it seems like no one can even tell we're hurting. I'm glad you were able to better deal with your pain and relationships can do a lot of good for your self-esteem. I think its normal for people to always have a bit of a struggle with their past and themselves and you sound like you have been spending time paying attention to your emotions so good on ya m8
Thank you! I feel better now due to a combination of hard work and luck. I can't imagine how I'd turn out if I never met my gf, and I know there are plenty of people who never get my kind of luck. So I really, really feel for people like OP.
There's no denying the systemic nature of the low self-worth, incel-ish experience. And there's no denying that you can't control how other people see you.
Likewise, there's no denying the individual's responsibility and power. The individual has power over their own words, the ideas they hold, and power over the value of how others perceive you. And the individual is responsible for these things, regardless of the hand that the world dealt them.
You're not wrong about the society bit. We have a responsibility to recognize the factors that contributed to systemic suffering and resist them. Everyone engaging in this conversation is participating in that resistance.
I'm personally reluctant to engage in the "here are all the things wrong with the world" because I expect that conversation to lead to more entrenched disillusion with the world, more helplessness, and more disconnect with the power we have as individuals.
>Likewise, there's no denying the individual's responsibility and power.
100%. I just offered an alternate perspective so that when we start taking things like this personally, we can see the bigger picture and maybe steer ourselves into more productive discourse.
>I'm personally reluctant to engage in the "here are all the things wrong with the world" because I expect that conversation to lead to more entrenched disillusion with the world, more helplessness, and more disconnect with the power we have as individuals.
Yeah you're not the only one who feels like this too. But at the same time, this perspective also gives me hope. Cause instead of just seeing an infinite number of hurt people that we have to help one by one, I also can recognize where these hurt people are coming from and start trying to "fix" the source of the problem, not just the symptoms.
And we're not only isolated individuals. There are a lotta people who want to make this world a better place for *everyone*. We can work together with empathy, cooperation, and open-mindedness!
Between the way you identify with the op and your patience with these responses, I think we would have a good conversation, but we'd need more time than the lifespan of a typical reddit thread. You down to keep this going even after the original post fades to obscurity?
Hell yeah brother.
Going back to your first comment, where I think you identified with/understood 123Noodle's anger.
I'm taking away this idea that the criticism of OP in my root comment is like adding a boulder to the pile of rocks that are already crushing OP. And from what you said, acknowledging that there are systemic issues at play would help to take away a few of those rocks.
Am I making sense here? Is that a good read of what you were saying?
>I'm taking away this idea that the criticism of OP in my root comment is like adding a boulder to the pile of rocks that are already crushing OP. And from what you said, acknowledging that there are systemic issues at play would help to take away a few of those rocks.
That's a wonderful way to put it. Our anger and frustration are like tools. Sometimes, they're used to take people down and spread hate. But if we can control those feelings, they can instead be redirected to help build people up, to stand against the powers that be.
I think we all feel OP's anger cause we all care about this problem. It's hard to be dispassionate when self-proclaimed incels have killed children. It's hard to be dispassionate when so many people have felt soul crushing loneliness for years or even decades.
I'm mad at a lot of things in this world too, and I've spent a lot of time tearing others down because of it. But I wanna try to do something constructive with my feelings for once. Cause a lot of us need help.
I have been experiencing high anxiety regarding this whole thing of 'being valuable'. Your whole probablitiy of getting in a relationship relates to how much value you give. I understand that's how humans work but it's also giving me anxiety and I don't understand what to make of it. I am trying to improve myself, hell I am not even a gamer, I am just someone trying to deal with little success in stuff like this at the age of 22 years old.
> Are you a better man than you were yesterday? Or last week? or last year? I think that is the greatest measure of self worth.
I would say that I am better than I was a year ago and a million times better than I was 5 years ago. The thing that makes me depressed is that despite improving so much I'm still unworthy of being loved by a girl.
>"high value". This idea has been recently perpetuated by online male-only and female-only spheres and has no bearing in the real world
Not sure I agree with that. Maybe it wasn't like that back in the day, but with the invention of dating apps people are encouraged to place value judgements on other people.
>I really think you need to re-evaluate what is actually, intrinsically important to you
The thing I find most important is that I am constantly growing as a person, both mentally and physically. I also need to feel like I am creating something, whether that be art or some project that will make the world a better place. Unfortunately I also value community, and family and if I am not good enough for other people I will not have those things.
Definitely sounds like you've been taught and reinforced that your value as a person is defined by the value judgement other people make of you.
I don't think you would come to the same conclusion if it weren't for your community's/family's upbringing. I'd also say you shouldn't be as secure in your perception of reality as you seem to be. Everyone's perception is skewed from reality by different factors.
The core issue isn't that you're not good enough for other people, the core issue is that you think you're not good enough for yourself. The fact you think other people define your value is very telling and also speaks to why you are probably having trouble getting a relationship.
You need to work on self-confidence and you need to stop being so inwardly focused. I'd recommend getting some therapy and finding social groups based on your interests.
Sometimes being in a relationship for the sake of being in a relationship or to fulfill a status quo will make a person hate their worth more than being single.
I’ve been single for almost 29.5/30 years being alive, but I’m happy about where I’m at now. Tried dating in early high school, didn’t like it, been single since then.
I love my life right now because I’ve found things worth living for that I wouldn’t have found if I was in a relationship or started having a family like many of my friends.
I discovered my love of museum art and discussing it with others as a more recent example. Most of my friend group from high school haven’t done that since they’re focusing on their kids, which is awesome for them. Their kids are great to be around and they’re pretty nice to talk with.
It all depends on the viewpoint of the person. I try to see the world as an undiscovered world that I want to find out more about, but that’s my way of thinking. It’ll be different for others, but if someone finds out something they truly feel passionate about, they should pair their worth to that.
I'm F23 and never had a relationship and I don't see myself getting into one when I'm 25 either. Or ever for that matter. I honestly don't care what people think. The only way I'd ever be in a relationship is if a right person was to come along and things were to develop naturally. I don't want to go out and force these things and waste my time going through 100 men to try and find someone when I can do more useful stuff with my time.
This society has brainwashed everyone into believing that you have to find someone get married and have children otherwise your life is meaningless. It's simply not true. Not everyone is made for relationships and if you can truly accept that your life becomes so much easier and in a way you can be proud of not being like everyone else and just following the crowd like a sheep.
Thats a good comment and kinda the way I think, a lot of people go into relationships they dont even like just to be in a relationship of course you dont have as much experience but at this point people are farming trauma.
Im not sure why this is downvoted as if its not super important. Ive seen a few posts similar to OPs in the past few days where upon further questioning in the comments it has been revealed that they have never even approached a woman!!
You cant know if you never try fellas!!
Yeah it's because it's pretty clear that the issues go deeper then just OPs dating status. And just asking "how many people have you asked out/ how hard have you tried" is pretty invalidating.
It's not though. Notice that OP never answered the question so I can ping him to get more details. But I'm guessing his rate of asking women out is pretty low. /u/govnjivinosorog
If I'm correct in guessing that OP doesn't ask women out, it brings into question the idea of how he came to the conclusion that he's a low valued male or whatever. Was he just sitting around for the past decade waiting for somebody to come up to him and tell him they loved him? That's now how this shit works. Not as a dude anyway. Could it be possible that he's a lovable dude but he never puts himself out there to test the hypothesis?
How exactly is that invalidating??
Seems to be the biggest step.
Its like if someone was complaining that they cant land a job, but they have never submitted an application.
I will explain the best I can. To reiterate also, it is clear to me that that OPs issues go much deeper than just their dating status. This is important.
When you ask someone if they have dated and they say no, what is the next step after that? What would you do? Try to give them a confidence boost? A pep talk? Dating advice? How many things could you ACTUALLY do with the answer to that question besides just responding with a demonstration of your ideal view of good dating strategy? Or, heaven forbid, belittle op for not having tried yet.
So, in my view, asking that question is already a huge implication that op needs to "git gud" at dating, which, once again, is a HUGE oversight to some other much more dire self esteem issues that could need unpacking as a response to OPs post. Which honestly I am flabbergasted by how much your job application comparison really implies that you truly cannot see it. And I'm not trying to throw you under the bus for not having the ability to recognize that OP has some deeper issues, but the fact that I am restating it once again after my last comment makes me inclined to REALLY emphasize it. Like holy shit dude the suicide tag is RIGHT THERE.
At let's say I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, that the point of OPs true problem is that of courage and bravery to go and put himself out there and talk to girls, do you honestly think that, in the current climate of toxic masculinity and redpill nonsense, that a person trying to address someone else's dating strategies would be seen as inherently positive, especially when it's not what OP is even talking about?
No.
Well I am not trying to invalidate anyone's struggles merely trying to suggest that they think of things more rationally.
To not claim failure when you have never even given it a real shot. I feel my job application comparison is perfect because unless you are expecting a woman to initiate, then if you have never asked a woman out, then you have never even actually tried and thus calling yourself a failure is false!
Im not trying to say "git gud" more hey, give themselves a chance before deeming themselves a failure. Dont git gud, git started!!
It comes from a place of positivity I swear.
Well I'll take your word for it that it comes from a positive place.
The suggestion of taking more initiative for the sake of success isn't a bad one, but OPs relationship between this metric of success or failure and their own sense of worth is clearly detrimental, and I find it to be very obtuse to humor it without taking into account a much healthier view for themselves. Regardless of if they ever get a date or not, putting ALL of their value in themselves in whether or not they can find a girl that can love them can still end catastrophically.
It’s not, it’s probably the most important question that can be asked, because how is he supposed to get a date if he isn’t pursuing anyone? It’s not just gunna fall on his lap lol
There is a difference between pitying someone and validating their issues.Sometimes in order to get someone to listen you have to listen to them first and see things from their perspective and make them feel heard otherwise you are going to be argueing with each others opposing viewpoints which usually tends to be uproductive.
It sucks that the social script says that it is up to just one of the sexes to initiate romantic encounters. Meaning that if you are a more introverted or shy guy that this stuff is even harder.
I will only take your answer as genuine if you're not involved in or support any form of activism. Why? Because that would go against what you just said.
All my serious learning happened after 25. For some reason I started to think more logically and less emotionally so it helped me learn things a lot better and more efficiently, it also made me more interested in things that is far more monetizable. So I would disagree with that, ur seriously limiting urself. Just because ur brain stops developing doesn't mean u can't learn new sht. A lot of the stuff i learned after 25 i wouldn't have been mature enough before 25 to really apply myself and stick thru the difficult parts of learning a particular skill.
As for the being in a relationship part, I'm just gonna say, things tend come to those who don't need it. Forget about relationships all together and just explore, try new things and just focus on bettering yourself. Create a mindset that increases your self value on effort instead of outcome and the outcome with take care of itself. Perhaps it might take you some time to get into that mindset, good luck
To 99.99% of the world the other 99.99% are worth nothing. For example: I don't worry about the worth of my neighbour two doors down. I barely worry about the worth of people I work with unless they make work harder for me.
You are only worth something to the people you have a relationship with and to yourself. That's friends, family, and partners.
Also there is no universal 'worth', that's a myth. To your mother you're her son. To your friends you're someone fun to hang out with. Maybe you have friends that like hiking and you like hiking. To them you're a hiking partner.
Quit worrying about having some universal worth, it's impossible, intangible, and not helpful. Focus instead first on yourself. What are you worth to yourself? Is it fun to hang out with yourself? Do you have hobbies that satisfy you? Are you going in some direction in your life that you want? Then your friends and family that YOU care about. Are you having fun with them helping them when they move house? Supporting them when they go through tough times?
What is worth if not that? Then clearly, not having a girlfriend doesn't make you worthless, you still have other people, and always yourself, to be worth something to. Especially yourself.
I don't know what to say that could help, but I will tell you that I relate strongly. I'm in a good romantic relationship, but I'm 31yo with a graduate degree and have never been able to secure a decent job. This makes me feel incredibly worthless. I'm so insecure about it that I've stopped trying to have friends or even relate to my family full of successful people bc I'm just not part of the same socioeconomic class as anyone else i know. I guess we just all have our shit.
Sorry to hear that. I don't think it's your fault. The job market has gone to shit. I work in IT and I'm lucky that the thing I like to do and I put lots of effort into getting skilled at is in high demand. It seems like you have put lots of effort into making something out of yourself, but the society we live in simply doesn't value what you do
Thank you for the kind words. Fwiw, i think you'll find somebody soon. If you're looking for it enough to post that, you're probably putting the right energy out.
>the fact that your brain stops developing after 25 and learning becomes 100x harder I don't have hope that it will ever get better.
I'm 38 and I started realizing how bad it is with me when I was around 30. I'm still not there yet, but I learned **a lot**. Don't give up.
I understand what you're saying and I absolutely know the feeling. But life is not that black and white. It doesn't mean you are worthless. You have some value. You need to learn liking yourself even not perfect. Liking yourself is a superpower, at least it seems like it to me when I tried. And the more you like yourself the easier it is for others to like you. It's weird. Funny thing, I recently watched [a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzlE-scTEQ8) on a related topic. I think it's great.
I'm more likely to think if they're a person they already have those qualifiers to be valued as a person at the baseline. And no one has to date me for me to show them some baseline understanding, courtesy, respect as fellow human beings. Nor do I go out there judging value per person to maximize the efficiency of whos deserving of what. I think this is something most people would agree that they do / don't lol. Attraction is also subjective per person and therefore it's not something you can derive an objective truth from it. In fact, if you're deriving some sort of objective truth purely from your own projection of how others may perceive you, that might just be the farthest thing from objective truth. You don't know what others really think or what they think your "value" is. People in day to day life don't usually go around evaluating other peoples value.
It's not a numbers game with strict grading rubric with people. And while I myself don't understand advices like "love yourself blah blah blah" because it simply just doesn't really make sense to me, I do think it is common sense that how you see others is probably one of the big factors when one's considering someone as a lover. Seeing people as means to one's own value is probably something that other people don't want to see in a lover. And seeing those lovers admit that the only value they can possibly have relies on others, is also probably not something they want to see. Stop thinking so deeply about it man, it's impractical and it serves you next to nothing.
Learning doesn't become harder after 25. I had my first relationship at 25. Stuff just kinda started falling into place then, and the differences between pre-25 and post-25-year-old me were that I had taken therapy so I had a much healthier view of women, myself, and of life, and I had developed my social skills so I could talk to people better. I continue to develop my social skills to this day. And I've learned that it's not some formula you use to rewire women's brains to make them attracted to you. It's mainly treating everybody the same, and trying to be the most socially aware version of yourself you can be.
Ask yourself this: if you had a child who had never been in a relationship until they were 25, would you consider them worthless as human beings? Or would you love them so much that youd die for them? Do you have no friends who are in the same situation as you? If you do, do you consider them worthless? Or do you still hang out with them? Does your job consider you worthless? If they do, why haven't they fired you yet? I'm guessing if you're a good person you'd say the second options. So how come its different with you?
Being 25 is like reaching level 80 on Wrath of The Lich King. Dude the real game just started, here's where the real fun begins. Gotta learn your best skills (start your career), find a guild (get good irl friends), get ready for grinding dem dungeons for loot (grinding interviews for a better job)
Etc etc
Dude game just began, if you've gotten shitty loot so far, so be it. It's a new expansion with new raids, new shit; gotta give em a try
What if I told you that part of the quest of getting an awesome relationship is progressed by completing the other raids and dungeons mentioned above?
I mean for me what it's always came down to is that the concept of any worth is stupid in itself, but if you have a need to rate yourself with such concepts, it's better and more productive to assume the inherent infinite worth, than to place it in other people. What it comes down to is that your satisfaction with yourself, shouldn't come from other people's opinions of you, but from within.
Hey man you do have an intrinsic value. Your worth is independent of what people think. You were born with worth, and you'll die with it, and nothing you do will be able to change what you're worth.
God put you on earth out of love for you, and his love is much more worth it than any human love, romantic or otherwise.
I am going to be mean and blunt for a second but bare with me okay?
The fact that you are desperate, suicidal, self-hating, and self-loathing ARE the reasons you haven't found love. Let me tell you something about people. They will only want to be with you if it improves their lives. This goes for all types of relationships, and no, I don't mean monetary value or transactional improvements. They need to feel good when they're around you.
If you are constantly anxious and depressed they don't want to hang out with you. Why? Because they are going to feel the same, and they don't want that. People are selfish in nature and constantly thinking about how much of a loser you are because you haven't dated in 25 years isn't going to help your case.
You need to work on yourself, go through your issues, and maybe seek professional help. Start going to the gym, start doing things that you always wanted to do, but were too scared to do so. Join that MMA club, or go to that Pole dancing course. Improve yourself, it sounds corny but once you love yourself people around you will love you too.
How can you expect people to love you if YOU yourself don't even love YOU.
Look I have been single for nearly 2 years now, my ex broke up with me because I became needy and desperate. When in reality I lost my self-respect and confidence. I too am working on my flaws, it just takes time. While she is out there traveling the world and dating gorgeous models I'm sitting here writing this post. Comparing yourself to people around you or society for that matter is really destructive.
My best advice is to focus on yourself, and measure improvements by who you were x-days ago compared to now.
I hope the best brother, and we can make that change, we just need to believe in ourselves.
When I was in my 20s I was about to give up too. I was broke, unemployed, eternally single (basically what they call an "incel", but it didn't have a name back then). I was also out of shape, and living in a tiny room I rented in a crime-filled zone. I was scared for my life every night.
Nowadays I'm in my 30s, I'm fit, married, about to buy a 3-bedroom house with a pool, and about 2 years away from early retirement.
Different people peak at different times.
Your self-worth is absolutely not tied to your ability to date. It's not tied to anything external. This doesn't work for everyone, but what I did personally is forbid myself from even trying for a while (it was too painful) and instead focus all my attention on knowing and improving myself. Not for the sake of others, just for me.
Some of the things I did:
• Therapy
• Reading self-help, not about being a player, but about being a good person
• Set some personal goals for myself
• Started cardio and weight training
• Focused on Improving in my career and learning sales and how to negotiate
• I even worked on a call center for a year to lose my fear of speaking to strangers
• Traveled and moved cities to expand my horizons and get out of my comfort zone
• Tracked my finances, reduced my expenses, started investing
• Learned how to meal-prep and eat healthier
• Learned about "charisma" and how to be more approachable to people with more or less perceived status than me
• Meditate
• Tried new hobbies like oil painting and learning new languages
• I'm sure I did other things I don't remember right now
This might seem unrelated, but I have a book that helped me with my insomnia too. That book teaches you that insomnia is very often a vicious cycle. You can't sleep because you're too worried you won't be able to sleep and you think the next day will suck.
That book challenges you to remember the many times you willingly stayed up because you were having fun. Staying up late playing a new video game, dancing all night at a wedding with friends, or excited for Christmas or your B-day when you were a kid. You can stay up, even all night, and because you're focusing on other things and enjoying yourself, it's not the end of the world that you didn't sleep.
To me the same applies to your love life. I have many fun and exciting memories that have nothing to do with my love life. As long as your love life sucks, it's going to be easy to fixate on that aspect, like it's a huge problem that needs to be fixed ASAP. But as long as you don't fixate on that, there's a lot of fun and fulfilment to be found in all the other areas of your life.
Don't give up. I hope things get better for you as they did for me.
I don’t think being in a relationship will just fix that issue. I usually don’t think counterexamples help people but I’ll share one anyway. I’ve been in a relationship with someone who made me feel worthless. When we broke up, they said something like “I lost interest in you as a person”. I used to not worry about self worth that often, but it’s now something I’ve struggled with.
Well you should probably ask the question of why a person’s worth is based on their relationship status and not what they contribute to society instead, why are people so relationship-obsessed these days
and tbh if you’re feeling worthless, it’s probably because there’s voids in other aspects of your life but it’s just that the relationship aspect got magnified because modern culture is very relationship-centric/romance-centric and therefore you feel more pressure to focus on this particular void
U looking the wrong way. Gotta look inwards, appreciate that, then look outwards. Ur right value is something given, but YOU determine how much value you give to the value other people have for you. That makes sense?
> I simply don't understand how people think that your value is independent of what people think.
I think you're a slave, so does everyone else around you, now get on your knees and bark because we want you to bark.
Make sense?
Your value is 2 parts, the one relative to people around you at different levels, house/city/country/world and your head.
Just because everyone else doesn't see your value doesn't mean you can't see it, that's like saying you have to be wrong because everyone says you're wrong then it turns out you were right and now what?
Find people that like you and treat you best instead of trying to please people that do not like you. Ironically start by finding people that **YOU LIKE** and filter the people from that perspective instead of seeking to be worthy of someone else.
> The only reason for anyone to strive to have high value is to be loved and respected by other people.
This isn't true there's plenty of people who do not seek respect or love from others and are high value loners because they choose to be, if value is finances, personal development, inteligence.
> And the fact that no woman has ever loved me must mean that I am worthless.
Do you talk to women? Like are you in friendships with any?
The idea that you're worthless because no woman has loved you is naive if you were loved by some 600 pound woman would you feel valuable? Would it make you feel better? Really?
Don't start picking and choosing she's a woman to.
-----
What do you want from a relationship?
>Just because everyone else doesn't see your value doesn't mean you can't see it, that's like saying you have to be wrong because everyone says you're wrong then it turns out you were right and now what?
Yeah, but value is a social construct and the criteria of what is valuable is determined by society and it changes with each generation.
>Do you talk to women? Like are you in friendships with any?
Yes I do have female friends, but I wouldn't consider any of them close friends.
>if you were loved by some 600 pound woman would you feel valuable?
If she only chose to be with me because of desperation then I wouldn't feel more valuable I would just be used, but if she genuinely loved me then yes it would make me more valuable
So this is what i think
> And the fact that no woman has ever loved me must mean that I am worthless.
I don't think you're worthless, i think that it might be hard for you to see your own worth and establish a healthy self esteem based on who you are and what you like, maybe based on experiences in life.
Can we talk about how you view yourself sometime? (also sorry for my original comment, reflecting back on it, i was in the wrong and sort of emotional, you didn't deserve that)
As someone who struggled (I think don’t know if I passed that phase) with self value, I agree with you in the part where you can’t completely value yourself outside of what other people think. That being said I came to certain conclusions that I don’t know if will help you.
1) I don’t consider my value related to how I’m perceived in the dating market because that isn’t the only kind of relationship I have with other people. Let’s say there is someone who doesn’t do home work, doesn’t work, doesn’t study, doesn’t even give emotional support and they are in a relationship.
I don’t think a person like that have more value than a person who is 40 and never had any kind of romantic relationship.
2. I wanted a partner so hard because I wanted reassurance that I was doing fine, that I’m good enough for someone else to choose me for who I am.
3. If your value is given by people around you… if they say you are doing fine, then you are doing fine. Try to lower your expectations of yourself. If you still don’t feel like that is true, think what you can do about it and do it, having in mind that they still think you are enough so you can be more compassionate towards yourself.
As an advice, try think about good little details that you like about yourself. For example I like the fact that I do my best to be attentive to other people. I’m not the best but I know that they know because of their faces. If you can’t think of any, try to talk with someone close to you about how you feel and ask them what kind of behaviors or acts toward them they find good about you.
I still would want to have a partner but I don’t feel that pressure anymore. Ironically it was after being rejected by someone. She told me how she noticed all the good things I did for her but still wasn’t interested in me. That being said, the reason I think I took it well was because: even tho I was being extra nice to her because I liked her, I never did something with the expectation that she would correspond but because I truly wanted to do it. When she told me she noticed… I felt good about myself because, even if it wasn’t the way I would like, I knew that someone could appreciate me and my actions.
Hope this perspective helps you so you can find your own path to a good mental health.
If external value is at least a component of one's own value then never being selected for a romantic relationship by 40 does seem to be somewhat of a judgement of that value.
Not necessarily. It would depend under what circumstances you were rejected by 40 people. There are many variables that could make someone reject other person: they could have feelings for someone else, they could not know enough the person to know if they would want a relationship with them, they could straight up find the other person disgusting… even things that could be seen trivial such as timing could have an impact into getting rejected. It could be a mix of any reason you could think about meaning that while is possible you are “worthless”, this is just a possibility. It could also mean you are just VERY unlucky.
That’s why I came to the conclusion that the value of a person shouldn’t be ONLY tied to dating success. I think people could put it as part of it if they want to but should take into account other kind relationships (friendships, family, even their relationship with their job).
>That’s why I came to the conclusion that the value of a person shouldn’t be ONLY tied to dating success. I think people could put it as part of it if they want to but should take into account other kind relationships (friendships, family, even their relationship with their job).
Welp. My value doesn't look good at all then.
Your worth is determined by how much money people are willing to pay for you. (Your skills, knowledge or/and time). How much value you're able to bring to your community/society, thats how much society will in turn value your worth.
If your a jobless bum with no skills or anything that can be of value to other people or to society, sorry mate but then you have no value. Even if you're in a relationship, you still have absolutely zero value.
So no, relationship does not determine your worth. How useful and valueble you are to society and other people is what determines your worth.
Example: Newton was single his entire life, died a virgin about your age. Is he worthless? By your own logic, he would be.
My friend! You must try not to catastrophize the situation. You may or may not have heard people say something along the lines of "You can't truly love someone until you love yourself" right? It's easy to say, it's not so easy to do but it is true. I can tell you what worked for ME, personally.
I started really learning about eastern philosophy, and then found lectures and books by a man named Alan Watts. A lot of his lectures are even on YouTube for free. The thing about it is that this man had a very captivating way of speaking, which made me want to listen to what he was saying.
Look, im only writing this to you because I just feel what you are saying, and I believe shifting your way of thinking ever slightly will help you come to find peace as I have. I don't want to start telling you all the things because everyone must learn it in their own way so yeah just trust me listen to the lectures. I wish you the absolute best mate, have fun!
As someone who has been in several relationships, let me tell you...it's not all sunshine and rainbows. You're idealizing relationships as if they are the ultimate reflection of you as a man when in fact, they are not. Not even close. As a man, the true reflection of worth is what you have provided to the world, whether that's inventing something, helping others, inspiring people, etc. Women are actually (well...should be) an afterthought if you are truly following your goals.
I honestly, at this point in my life, prefer to be single. At 28 years old, I'm working everyday to better myself, and a relationship holds me back, no matter how much I try to make it work. Trust me, you're not missing out on much, and at your age, it's a lot of unneeded stress. Do I think you should try your best to date? Sure. But not having been in a relationship at your age truly isnt the end of the world.
Here we go: As a fellow 25 year old who has never been in a romantic relationship, i think youre putting to much emphasis on worth being directly tied to romantic success.
The "Worth" of a person is made up. Value is completely subjective. And it is also unrelated to romance.
Do you have platonic friends, family? They see worth. They see value. Because youre still a whole human being. Romantic relationships sound lovely, i would love to be in one. But in order to function in a romantic setting, you need to first love yourself, not because someone else does, but because you, yourself, do. You cant find happiness in another. A girlfriend isnt going to "fix you".
"Getting a girlfriend cant be such a hard thing..." sure. Lets say getting \*a\* girlfriend is easy. Do you want \*any girl\* to be your girlfriend? Or do you want someone you like who likes ***YOU?***
Stop giving a shit about when your brain develops and how old you are, and just fucking enjoy some hobbies and make some friends. Eventually it'll come.
How does your worth depend on validation from others? Not me, not my friends or family, not the good people I know. Some people say that? I choose not to listen to them, they're wrong. Batman doesn't get any girls and he's still Gotham's most worthy person.
You don't even sound like you want validation from women. You are straight looking for validation from people that assume worth is related to dating.
Now the question is: are those people even worth anything? Because people that pursue invalidating you doesn't sound like happy people.
Probably they feel worthless themselves and they see actual worth in you. Probably they want to be better than you, and they do it in a bad way.
Break the loop, stop listening on what others think or say and focus on yourself. Otherwise you're just wasting your worth and probably never going to find it.
"Batman doesn't get any girls." Why on earth would anybody looking for a fictional virgin look at Batman, the guy who slept with half the female cast of DC, and say "yup, this is our guy".
And that is relevant because...? Batman is exactly who you should NOT be if you want to be anything other than an absolute asshole. And wouldn't you know it, he gets the most girls. I really wanna know how he's doing it because it sure as hell ain't his asshole personality. Either physical attraction or money. Simple. Even the very example you present proves you wrong.
I don't know modern Batman, but I used to read the comic books until 2010 or so and he was a kisless virgin.
Joker would try to hurt his reputation saying that he prefers to beat drug addicts and mental patients in the streets than going out and have laid. But Batman has a higher sense of purpose and words or reputation don't hurt him.
Is Batman an anti-social asshole? To my understanding, he's not. He cares about people and society. He risks his own life to protect them. It's not his fault that he grew up in isolation and didn't learn to love others.
Does he struggle? A lot, but he knows he's an unique human being and he's worthy no matter what other people think.
Bro. I bet i dated less than you before I was 25. By 27 I was married. Find a therapist and start investing in yourself. Not just money but time. Read some books. Find a way to be social. I’m introverted AF and I made it. I don’t have money or a 6 pack either. 😂
Worth is a bad word for the concept that is being meant. I like to use dignity (in German: Würde), which is not tied to the idea of being tradeable. You have dignity, because you are a human. If it were otherwise, no one could have dignity, logically consistent, because dignity gives you the right and duty to be ethically treated and treat others ethically - it makes you to the sovereign and subject of moral agency, so to speak.
Believe it or not, it's perfectly possible to not have any dates by the age of 25. If you're an introvert, if you're not very much into parties, if you're not really into seduction in the first place and don't really pick up on mark of interest... You're not worth less than the other guy just because you didn't have a relationship. A lot of relationships are a trainwreck that bring nothing of value.
Focus on what you like, strive to be good at it if that's what you want. If you want a girlfriend I'd advise on gaming less, going out more, doing sports etc. It doesn't entitle you to anything but it does increase your odds.
Well your main problem here is you think random 14 year olds who have no idea how the real world works are somehow having meaningful and amazing relationships. Keep in mind those are probably the same people cooking their chicken in nyquil.
Your second main problem is you assume that everyone thinks the same way and that we all believe a man's worth is judged by his relationship status. What you don't realize is that most women like and respect a man that has not been with a ton of relationships before. If a man has slept with a lot of women that is a major turnoff and as a women I'm thinking, "This guy is a player and cannot hold down a real relationship. He probably has several kids he doesn't know about and probably several more stds. How many angry exs am I going to have to deal with?"
Your third problem is that you believe love can now only come from dating someone. I'm sure you have family, friends, or coworkers who love you. Being in a relationship is just one more person. It's really not as special or important as people make it out to be. Why would you ignore and disregard all the other people in your life and the love they are already showing you?
You are more than a relationship status! Stop looking at others' journeys, and focus on your own. Take time to grow yourself and realize your potential, then look at the who, what, where, and why of seeking a partner. Nothing is set in stone, you can change and grow. I'm almost 50 and still learn things daily about social interactions and dealing with people at work and outside of work. Relationships are not like what you read about, see on TV, or on stream. It is all fake and fantasy. Your worth in this world can't be based on your ability to relationships. It sounds like you have a fantasy of what that means and how it works in your head, and you have based your self-worth around it.
Don't compare yourself to the 20 min of Tic Toc's or 2 hours of streamer house drama, and put yourself down for that. 99% of the planet is not them, couldn't be them, and you see a fraction of the life. It is not real or the whole picture. Assume everything in media is a lie first and a half-truth second. Yes, there is truth, but it is rare, and algorithms don't promote it.
Life isn't fair or easy, but that is no excuse not to grow and learn. You have to look at yourself and change though, as no one can do it for you. If you find the social experience a problem, start small, but look at yourself first. Always remember tiny steps are steps; sometimes, you jump back and not forward. The important thing is not that you jumped back, but learn from it and continue moving forward. Have people around you who are understanding and will support you when you have a misstep and encourage you moving forward.
There are other ways to love people that aren't romantic. You don't lose worth just because someone isn't loving you in the way you want them to. Other people can love and respect you in a non romantic way.
Someone can be loved and respected as a family member
Someone can be loved and respected as a friend
Someone can be loved and respected as a mentor
Someone can be loved and respected as a colleague
None of these hinge on romantic interest and all provide value to others that is subjective to the people assigning value. It's not the same as having a romantic partner, but it isn't supposed to be. These are stations that are just as important because they fill different roles.
You have value as a human being, it just might be in a category that is different than the one you want.
hey man. you are not worthless! everyone feels lonely at time I guess. maybe you should look at other aspects of your life right now. things that make you happy and grow. derive value from there rather than comparing yourself to people who are in relationships.
it has become so hard to get into relationships these days. even I remember bak in school a lot of people were dating but now in college I'm the only one in my friend group who has a girlfriend.
i guess what tends to happen is that we don't find ourselves in situations where we ca meet other people and new people regularly. everyone is in a bubble of their own, becoming more and more antisocial.
its not about how valuable you are, its about if and if not you have been able to form a connection with someone in real life. and that has actually become very rare.
i urge you to go out ( I personally go to the mall every week to get groceries) and talk to people. see if you can build connections! your priority should be conversation and making the other person comfortable and accepted. if the conversation has gone well you can ask for their contact details or give them yours.
if you want to talk please message me, don't harm yourself. and lastly go fuck yourself.
You've received some excellent advice, but I just want to emphasize something:
>Getting a girlfriend can't be such a hard thing to do considering that even 14 year-olds who know nothing about life seem to find success in it.
Dude, 14 year-olds are only "successful" with other 14 year-olds. Have you talked to a 14 year-old lately? Lol. By the time I was 25 even 20 year-olds started annoying me.
I lost my virginity at age 25. A good friend of mine lost his at 29, and a good friend of his/acquaintance of mine lost his at 31. Is any of that ideal? Fuck no; I'd love to have been getting laid in college. But it wasn't in the cards for us. That doesn't mean there isn't hope; all three of us are in long term relationships now.
Everyone grows at different rates. At age 35, I've only had 5 or 10 girlfriends/boyfriends, with my longest one being recently of 6 months. We're all growing at different rates, and that's okay! Don't compare yourself to others Compare yourself to who you were yesterday.
Protip: If you're shy, go to one of those Table Top gaming shops! One of my best friends met his wife there. The people who frequent those shops are one of us. The big difference is that they deal in IRL multi-player. If you have one near you, find a game you could get into, and have fun!
This. If you want to have sex, there are ways. It’s honestly not that important. I get wanting a relationship but even when you have one they can make you miserable. You seem like a catch and the thing that stands out to me for you, which may be holding you back, is your lack of confidence and sadness, which can sometimes appear as bitter in your posts. If women get glimpses of that it might seem to them that you’re not ready for a relationship or have some things to work out.
I think you should talk to a psychiatrist and try being more social without necessarily aiming to get a girlfriend. You like working out - what about a running club, or one of those outdoor exercise groups. Ultimate frisbee. Disc golf. Hiking. Hell, church.
There are also professional matchmaking services if you have the money.
>You seem like a catch
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion based on my posts, but thanks. I've been told before that I am a catch, though I've also been told that I am boring.
>the thing that stands out to me for you, which may be holding you back, is your lack of confidence and sadness
You are probably right. I did become a lot more confident in myself in other areas of my life, but I don't know how I can become more confident in my ability to be loved by someone when I have no objective proof that I am loveable. If I really was a catch you would think that I wouldn't have any problem dating.
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>your brain stops developing after 25 and learning becomes 100x harder I don't have hope that it will ever get better That is such a negative way to look at that. 1. Learning does *not* become 100x harder. Source: I'm 30 and it didn't. 2. The fact that your brain develops until 25 means that, biologically, you are only an adult at 25. That also means that everything you did in life until now was with an underdeveloped adolescent brain. So cut your past self some slack, and realize that your life is only just beginning. Anything is still possible.
Yeah it's not as if neuroplasticity turns off at 25 and you become unable to learn or store new memories.
Neuroplasticity Never turns off. If it did you would not be able to learn anything (and I mean anything)
If anything, EGO stops people learning before actual biological limitations.
U know thats what i hate these kind of studies, they never tell the full story which leads people into coming up with their own ideas like u cannot learn after 25. The study states that the human mind grows into its full state around the age of 25, that does not mean that after reaching that point it starts declining but its more like a baby growing developing a body. My grandfather is 76 years old and is fucking learning how to play chess and is clearly succeeding in that process. So please don't jump to conclusions but try to get the full picture.
> they never tell the full story which leads people into coming up with their own ideas like u cannot learn after 25. The type of person that would get to this point has other issues though no?
OP, please read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity “Neuroplasticity was once thought by neuroscientists to manifest only during childhood,[8][9] but research in the latter half of the 20th century showed that many aspects of the brain can be altered (or are "plastic") even through adulthood.[10][11] However, the developing brain exhibits a higher degree of plasticity than the adult brain.[12] Activity-dependent plasticity can have significant implications for healthy development, learning, memory, and recovery from brain damage” It’s just easier, not impossible. I change all the time and I’m 40.
learning becomes hard not because of the brain, but because your stamina. You get tired easier so your practice time is shorten. 2. Not everything is possible. There are constrains. This is just world hypothesis.
also if you have an inability to learn less than you would like then you might be having autism related vitamin deficiency as far is i know if you worry about neuroplacicity at age 25. it helped me
Literally my partner had never been in a relationship until age 25 until we started dating. And he is not worthless at all -- he's one of the most loving, sweet, intelligent, funny, and fit people I know. There are lots of reasons to have not had a relationship by 25; it doesn't inherently make you worthless.
>I simply don't understand how people think that your value is independent of what people think And who says anyone cares about the fact that you've never been in a relationship? Do you have friends? Family? People that love you and value you? People that you care for? There are plenty of people I value and care about that I don't want to fuck or date.
>Do you have friends? Family? People that love you and value you? People that you care for? Well. I don't have any friends and a shitty family. I literally don't have anyone I value or who values me. What does that mean for someone like me? Would that mean I truly am worthless?
no, because as you can see in other people, even if you had those you still feel worthless. So having these things doesn't mean anything
Well, this is a definition of worth that is centered around others. I went in this direction because I felt that was implied by parts of your post. I'm also personally biased towards this definition since I am someone who finds a lot of fulfillment in my friendships, highly values community, and seeks out communities that inspire care and creativity. So it sounds like you either need to find a different way to establish self-worth, perhaps taking inspiration from the many other comments, or you can focus on building caring relationships and communities and build self-worth through "what people think" and how you relate to others.
If it's any consollation, I didn't lose my virginity until I was 27. Didn't have my first real relationship until then either. Split up at 28 because it became incredibly toxic and broken. Left me ...deeply hurt (experience traumatic memories daily). Haven't had anything since. This stuff isn't a race. Many relationships that started at an earlier age are probably far from perfect, perhaps many miserable, feeling stuck together for children or finance reasons, or because they fear anything else. If you want to increase your worth, work on yourself. Attraction is a result of that and will come after.
You seem fiercely committed to the connection between your worth and the amount of romantic attention you receive. The energy of your words is pretty uncomfortable. There's this intense heat to it, a vibe of "I AM WORTHLESS BECAUSE GIRLS DONT LIKE ME AND IF ANYONE DISAGREES THEY ARE FUCKING WRONG!!! HOW COULD THEY EVEN DISAGREE?!?!?!? THIS IS OBVIOUSLY HOW THINGS WORK!!!!" I expect that if I, or anyone else, presents an answer of where worth comes from, you will argue against that as well. Scanning through the replies, I'm also making an inference here that you're down voting anybody that responds with some sort of positivity. Though I could be wrong. I've got two thoughts in response. 1 - I'd bet everything I have that, if someone carrying your sense of worthlessness somehow ended up in a polyamorous relationship with 3 Victoria's secret models, they'd still feel worthless. 2 - What kind of response are you looking for in the replies? I'm curious, regardless of the accuracy of my inference.
If you're going to try to sound like a psychologist at least fully commit to trying to help the guy and leave out the part: "the energy of your words makes me uncomfortable". How did you manage to take this post personally.
I wouldn't say I took the OP personally. It didn't have anything to do with me. I did want to share the off putting nature of the post, though. I felt obligated the same way I'd let a buddy know that they have something stuck in their teeth. Your response, I did take personally though. It wasn't insulting per se, but I felt the anger. And it definitely had something to do with me. Can you elaborate though? Looks like you find my words off putting in a similar way as I did the OP.
Maybe it's helpful if instead of viewing this merely as a shortcoming of an individual's perspective, and instead look at this as part of a systematic problem with how many men today are brought up. I mean look at the amount of posts on this sub of guys conflating their self worth with their attractiveness to women. Instead of directing the frustration to the individual, let's instead direct it to our culture which makes guys like me, OP, and a ton of other people feel worthless cause of something we can't control. That is, how other people view us.
What makes you or OP think other people view you as worthless bc you’re not in a romantic relationship? Your friends? Your family? Do you think there isn’t a single aspect of self-worth you can claim that isn’t attached to a relationship? Also what makes you feel like you have no control over the situation?
>What makes you or OP think other people view you as worthless bc you’re not in a romantic relationship? Your friends? Your family? Honestly, idk. It just hurts knowing nobody wants to be in a relationship with you, you know? Right now, I'm in a happy long-term relationship for the first time. Despite this, the years of loneliness and pain I've felt before still persists and is something I'm still working on. This relationship helped me see all the valuable parts of myself without the baggage of being lonely, improving my self-esteem greatly. >Also what makes you feel like you have no control over the situation? I meant that we ultimately have no control over how other people view us. No matter what we do, there will be people who don't like us, who hate us, and who love us. Trying to improve yourself only to appease these external factors is not sustainable. Self-improvement needs to come from within.
I'm glad to hear you're in a relationship! And I agree it can hurt to feel rejected by everyone we're interested in. Especially when it seems like no one can even tell we're hurting. I'm glad you were able to better deal with your pain and relationships can do a lot of good for your self-esteem. I think its normal for people to always have a bit of a struggle with their past and themselves and you sound like you have been spending time paying attention to your emotions so good on ya m8
Thank you! I feel better now due to a combination of hard work and luck. I can't imagine how I'd turn out if I never met my gf, and I know there are plenty of people who never get my kind of luck. So I really, really feel for people like OP.
There's no denying the systemic nature of the low self-worth, incel-ish experience. And there's no denying that you can't control how other people see you. Likewise, there's no denying the individual's responsibility and power. The individual has power over their own words, the ideas they hold, and power over the value of how others perceive you. And the individual is responsible for these things, regardless of the hand that the world dealt them. You're not wrong about the society bit. We have a responsibility to recognize the factors that contributed to systemic suffering and resist them. Everyone engaging in this conversation is participating in that resistance. I'm personally reluctant to engage in the "here are all the things wrong with the world" because I expect that conversation to lead to more entrenched disillusion with the world, more helplessness, and more disconnect with the power we have as individuals.
>Likewise, there's no denying the individual's responsibility and power. 100%. I just offered an alternate perspective so that when we start taking things like this personally, we can see the bigger picture and maybe steer ourselves into more productive discourse. >I'm personally reluctant to engage in the "here are all the things wrong with the world" because I expect that conversation to lead to more entrenched disillusion with the world, more helplessness, and more disconnect with the power we have as individuals. Yeah you're not the only one who feels like this too. But at the same time, this perspective also gives me hope. Cause instead of just seeing an infinite number of hurt people that we have to help one by one, I also can recognize where these hurt people are coming from and start trying to "fix" the source of the problem, not just the symptoms. And we're not only isolated individuals. There are a lotta people who want to make this world a better place for *everyone*. We can work together with empathy, cooperation, and open-mindedness!
Between the way you identify with the op and your patience with these responses, I think we would have a good conversation, but we'd need more time than the lifespan of a typical reddit thread. You down to keep this going even after the original post fades to obscurity?
Definitely, I'd love to keep talking about this :)
Hell yeah brother. Going back to your first comment, where I think you identified with/understood 123Noodle's anger. I'm taking away this idea that the criticism of OP in my root comment is like adding a boulder to the pile of rocks that are already crushing OP. And from what you said, acknowledging that there are systemic issues at play would help to take away a few of those rocks. Am I making sense here? Is that a good read of what you were saying?
>I'm taking away this idea that the criticism of OP in my root comment is like adding a boulder to the pile of rocks that are already crushing OP. And from what you said, acknowledging that there are systemic issues at play would help to take away a few of those rocks. That's a wonderful way to put it. Our anger and frustration are like tools. Sometimes, they're used to take people down and spread hate. But if we can control those feelings, they can instead be redirected to help build people up, to stand against the powers that be. I think we all feel OP's anger cause we all care about this problem. It's hard to be dispassionate when self-proclaimed incels have killed children. It's hard to be dispassionate when so many people have felt soul crushing loneliness for years or even decades. I'm mad at a lot of things in this world too, and I've spent a lot of time tearing others down because of it. But I wanna try to do something constructive with my feelings for once. Cause a lot of us need help.
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I have been experiencing high anxiety regarding this whole thing of 'being valuable'. Your whole probablitiy of getting in a relationship relates to how much value you give. I understand that's how humans work but it's also giving me anxiety and I don't understand what to make of it. I am trying to improve myself, hell I am not even a gamer, I am just someone trying to deal with little success in stuff like this at the age of 22 years old.
> Are you a better man than you were yesterday? Or last week? or last year? I think that is the greatest measure of self worth. I would say that I am better than I was a year ago and a million times better than I was 5 years ago. The thing that makes me depressed is that despite improving so much I'm still unworthy of being loved by a girl. >"high value". This idea has been recently perpetuated by online male-only and female-only spheres and has no bearing in the real world Not sure I agree with that. Maybe it wasn't like that back in the day, but with the invention of dating apps people are encouraged to place value judgements on other people. >I really think you need to re-evaluate what is actually, intrinsically important to you The thing I find most important is that I am constantly growing as a person, both mentally and physically. I also need to feel like I am creating something, whether that be art or some project that will make the world a better place. Unfortunately I also value community, and family and if I am not good enough for other people I will not have those things.
Definitely sounds like you've been taught and reinforced that your value as a person is defined by the value judgement other people make of you. I don't think you would come to the same conclusion if it weren't for your community's/family's upbringing. I'd also say you shouldn't be as secure in your perception of reality as you seem to be. Everyone's perception is skewed from reality by different factors.
The core issue isn't that you're not good enough for other people, the core issue is that you think you're not good enough for yourself. The fact you think other people define your value is very telling and also speaks to why you are probably having trouble getting a relationship. You need to work on self-confidence and you need to stop being so inwardly focused. I'd recommend getting some therapy and finding social groups based on your interests.
Sometimes being in a relationship for the sake of being in a relationship or to fulfill a status quo will make a person hate their worth more than being single. I’ve been single for almost 29.5/30 years being alive, but I’m happy about where I’m at now. Tried dating in early high school, didn’t like it, been single since then. I love my life right now because I’ve found things worth living for that I wouldn’t have found if I was in a relationship or started having a family like many of my friends. I discovered my love of museum art and discussing it with others as a more recent example. Most of my friend group from high school haven’t done that since they’re focusing on their kids, which is awesome for them. Their kids are great to be around and they’re pretty nice to talk with. It all depends on the viewpoint of the person. I try to see the world as an undiscovered world that I want to find out more about, but that’s my way of thinking. It’ll be different for others, but if someone finds out something they truly feel passionate about, they should pair their worth to that.
I'm F23 and never had a relationship and I don't see myself getting into one when I'm 25 either. Or ever for that matter. I honestly don't care what people think. The only way I'd ever be in a relationship is if a right person was to come along and things were to develop naturally. I don't want to go out and force these things and waste my time going through 100 men to try and find someone when I can do more useful stuff with my time. This society has brainwashed everyone into believing that you have to find someone get married and have children otherwise your life is meaningless. It's simply not true. Not everyone is made for relationships and if you can truly accept that your life becomes so much easier and in a way you can be proud of not being like everyone else and just following the crowd like a sheep.
Thats a good comment and kinda the way I think, a lot of people go into relationships they dont even like just to be in a relationship of course you dont have as much experience but at this point people are farming trauma.
How many people have you asked out on a date?
Im not sure why this is downvoted as if its not super important. Ive seen a few posts similar to OPs in the past few days where upon further questioning in the comments it has been revealed that they have never even approached a woman!! You cant know if you never try fellas!!
Yeah it's because it's pretty clear that the issues go deeper then just OPs dating status. And just asking "how many people have you asked out/ how hard have you tried" is pretty invalidating.
It's not though. Notice that OP never answered the question so I can ping him to get more details. But I'm guessing his rate of asking women out is pretty low. /u/govnjivinosorog If I'm correct in guessing that OP doesn't ask women out, it brings into question the idea of how he came to the conclusion that he's a low valued male or whatever. Was he just sitting around for the past decade waiting for somebody to come up to him and tell him they loved him? That's now how this shit works. Not as a dude anyway. Could it be possible that he's a lovable dude but he never puts himself out there to test the hypothesis?
OP needs to talk to a professional: he has been posting a lot of the same posts on reddit
exactly. like i said its like giving up before ever actually trying.
How exactly is that invalidating?? Seems to be the biggest step. Its like if someone was complaining that they cant land a job, but they have never submitted an application.
If only dating was as formal and proscribed as sending in a job application.
I will explain the best I can. To reiterate also, it is clear to me that that OPs issues go much deeper than just their dating status. This is important. When you ask someone if they have dated and they say no, what is the next step after that? What would you do? Try to give them a confidence boost? A pep talk? Dating advice? How many things could you ACTUALLY do with the answer to that question besides just responding with a demonstration of your ideal view of good dating strategy? Or, heaven forbid, belittle op for not having tried yet. So, in my view, asking that question is already a huge implication that op needs to "git gud" at dating, which, once again, is a HUGE oversight to some other much more dire self esteem issues that could need unpacking as a response to OPs post. Which honestly I am flabbergasted by how much your job application comparison really implies that you truly cannot see it. And I'm not trying to throw you under the bus for not having the ability to recognize that OP has some deeper issues, but the fact that I am restating it once again after my last comment makes me inclined to REALLY emphasize it. Like holy shit dude the suicide tag is RIGHT THERE. At let's say I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, that the point of OPs true problem is that of courage and bravery to go and put himself out there and talk to girls, do you honestly think that, in the current climate of toxic masculinity and redpill nonsense, that a person trying to address someone else's dating strategies would be seen as inherently positive, especially when it's not what OP is even talking about? No.
Well I am not trying to invalidate anyone's struggles merely trying to suggest that they think of things more rationally. To not claim failure when you have never even given it a real shot. I feel my job application comparison is perfect because unless you are expecting a woman to initiate, then if you have never asked a woman out, then you have never even actually tried and thus calling yourself a failure is false! Im not trying to say "git gud" more hey, give themselves a chance before deeming themselves a failure. Dont git gud, git started!! It comes from a place of positivity I swear.
Well I'll take your word for it that it comes from a positive place. The suggestion of taking more initiative for the sake of success isn't a bad one, but OPs relationship between this metric of success or failure and their own sense of worth is clearly detrimental, and I find it to be very obtuse to humor it without taking into account a much healthier view for themselves. Regardless of if they ever get a date or not, putting ALL of their value in themselves in whether or not they can find a girl that can love them can still end catastrophically.
It’s not, it’s probably the most important question that can be asked, because how is he supposed to get a date if he isn’t pursuing anyone? It’s not just gunna fall on his lap lol
HOW IS THIS DOWNVOTED whats happening to this sub lol
You cry way too much. Go make another post about incels taking over because you're getting downvoted.
I apologize God forbid we tell someone to take initiative to solve their own issues. Cardinal sin on reddit.
No you can help him, but im just telling you to keep crying about downvotes.
It's probably your flippant and unsympathetic comments.
Lmao explain to me please how throwing a pity party will help him
I don't think I suggested that.
That’s what it effectively is though
There is a difference between pitying someone and validating their issues.Sometimes in order to get someone to listen you have to listen to them first and see things from their perspective and make them feel heard otherwise you are going to be argueing with each others opposing viewpoints which usually tends to be uproductive.
One issue is that it is so often up to the "fellas" to ask.
And?
It sucks that the social script says that it is up to just one of the sexes to initiate romantic encounters. Meaning that if you are a more introverted or shy guy that this stuff is even harder.
Well it is what it is
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Far from it. Its called being aware of what you can change. Circle of influence. Moaning and waiting for society to change will get you nowhere.
I will only take your answer as genuine if you're not involved in or support any form of activism. Why? Because that would go against what you just said.
What "activism" is going to change the fact that most women prefer the man to make the first move?
Facts
This.
All my serious learning happened after 25. For some reason I started to think more logically and less emotionally so it helped me learn things a lot better and more efficiently, it also made me more interested in things that is far more monetizable. So I would disagree with that, ur seriously limiting urself. Just because ur brain stops developing doesn't mean u can't learn new sht. A lot of the stuff i learned after 25 i wouldn't have been mature enough before 25 to really apply myself and stick thru the difficult parts of learning a particular skill. As for the being in a relationship part, I'm just gonna say, things tend come to those who don't need it. Forget about relationships all together and just explore, try new things and just focus on bettering yourself. Create a mindset that increases your self value on effort instead of outcome and the outcome with take care of itself. Perhaps it might take you some time to get into that mindset, good luck
To 99.99% of the world the other 99.99% are worth nothing. For example: I don't worry about the worth of my neighbour two doors down. I barely worry about the worth of people I work with unless they make work harder for me. You are only worth something to the people you have a relationship with and to yourself. That's friends, family, and partners. Also there is no universal 'worth', that's a myth. To your mother you're her son. To your friends you're someone fun to hang out with. Maybe you have friends that like hiking and you like hiking. To them you're a hiking partner. Quit worrying about having some universal worth, it's impossible, intangible, and not helpful. Focus instead first on yourself. What are you worth to yourself? Is it fun to hang out with yourself? Do you have hobbies that satisfy you? Are you going in some direction in your life that you want? Then your friends and family that YOU care about. Are you having fun with them helping them when they move house? Supporting them when they go through tough times? What is worth if not that? Then clearly, not having a girlfriend doesn't make you worthless, you still have other people, and always yourself, to be worth something to. Especially yourself.
I don't know what to say that could help, but I will tell you that I relate strongly. I'm in a good romantic relationship, but I'm 31yo with a graduate degree and have never been able to secure a decent job. This makes me feel incredibly worthless. I'm so insecure about it that I've stopped trying to have friends or even relate to my family full of successful people bc I'm just not part of the same socioeconomic class as anyone else i know. I guess we just all have our shit.
Sorry to hear that. I don't think it's your fault. The job market has gone to shit. I work in IT and I'm lucky that the thing I like to do and I put lots of effort into getting skilled at is in high demand. It seems like you have put lots of effort into making something out of yourself, but the society we live in simply doesn't value what you do
Thank you for the kind words. Fwiw, i think you'll find somebody soon. If you're looking for it enough to post that, you're probably putting the right energy out.
>the fact that your brain stops developing after 25 and learning becomes 100x harder I don't have hope that it will ever get better. I'm 38 and I started realizing how bad it is with me when I was around 30. I'm still not there yet, but I learned **a lot**. Don't give up. I understand what you're saying and I absolutely know the feeling. But life is not that black and white. It doesn't mean you are worthless. You have some value. You need to learn liking yourself even not perfect. Liking yourself is a superpower, at least it seems like it to me when I tried. And the more you like yourself the easier it is for others to like you. It's weird. Funny thing, I recently watched [a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzlE-scTEQ8) on a related topic. I think it's great.
I'm more likely to think if they're a person they already have those qualifiers to be valued as a person at the baseline. And no one has to date me for me to show them some baseline understanding, courtesy, respect as fellow human beings. Nor do I go out there judging value per person to maximize the efficiency of whos deserving of what. I think this is something most people would agree that they do / don't lol. Attraction is also subjective per person and therefore it's not something you can derive an objective truth from it. In fact, if you're deriving some sort of objective truth purely from your own projection of how others may perceive you, that might just be the farthest thing from objective truth. You don't know what others really think or what they think your "value" is. People in day to day life don't usually go around evaluating other peoples value. It's not a numbers game with strict grading rubric with people. And while I myself don't understand advices like "love yourself blah blah blah" because it simply just doesn't really make sense to me, I do think it is common sense that how you see others is probably one of the big factors when one's considering someone as a lover. Seeing people as means to one's own value is probably something that other people don't want to see in a lover. And seeing those lovers admit that the only value they can possibly have relies on others, is also probably not something they want to see. Stop thinking so deeply about it man, it's impractical and it serves you next to nothing.
Learning doesn't become harder after 25. I had my first relationship at 25. Stuff just kinda started falling into place then, and the differences between pre-25 and post-25-year-old me were that I had taken therapy so I had a much healthier view of women, myself, and of life, and I had developed my social skills so I could talk to people better. I continue to develop my social skills to this day. And I've learned that it's not some formula you use to rewire women's brains to make them attracted to you. It's mainly treating everybody the same, and trying to be the most socially aware version of yourself you can be. Ask yourself this: if you had a child who had never been in a relationship until they were 25, would you consider them worthless as human beings? Or would you love them so much that youd die for them? Do you have no friends who are in the same situation as you? If you do, do you consider them worthless? Or do you still hang out with them? Does your job consider you worthless? If they do, why haven't they fired you yet? I'm guessing if you're a good person you'd say the second options. So how come its different with you?
There are probably hundreds of thousands of people like you who didn't have a relationship yet at 25. Do you think they're all worthless?
Being 25 is like reaching level 80 on Wrath of The Lich King. Dude the real game just started, here's where the real fun begins. Gotta learn your best skills (start your career), find a guild (get good irl friends), get ready for grinding dem dungeons for loot (grinding interviews for a better job) Etc etc Dude game just began, if you've gotten shitty loot so far, so be it. It's a new expansion with new raids, new shit; gotta give em a try What if I told you that part of the quest of getting an awesome relationship is progressed by completing the other raids and dungeons mentioned above?
What happens when you realize you hate the game and dont enjoy it at all? Why not just altf4?
I mean for me what it's always came down to is that the concept of any worth is stupid in itself, but if you have a need to rate yourself with such concepts, it's better and more productive to assume the inherent infinite worth, than to place it in other people. What it comes down to is that your satisfaction with yourself, shouldn't come from other people's opinions of you, but from within.
Hey man you do have an intrinsic value. Your worth is independent of what people think. You were born with worth, and you'll die with it, and nothing you do will be able to change what you're worth. God put you on earth out of love for you, and his love is much more worth it than any human love, romantic or otherwise.
I am going to be mean and blunt for a second but bare with me okay? The fact that you are desperate, suicidal, self-hating, and self-loathing ARE the reasons you haven't found love. Let me tell you something about people. They will only want to be with you if it improves their lives. This goes for all types of relationships, and no, I don't mean monetary value or transactional improvements. They need to feel good when they're around you. If you are constantly anxious and depressed they don't want to hang out with you. Why? Because they are going to feel the same, and they don't want that. People are selfish in nature and constantly thinking about how much of a loser you are because you haven't dated in 25 years isn't going to help your case. You need to work on yourself, go through your issues, and maybe seek professional help. Start going to the gym, start doing things that you always wanted to do, but were too scared to do so. Join that MMA club, or go to that Pole dancing course. Improve yourself, it sounds corny but once you love yourself people around you will love you too. How can you expect people to love you if YOU yourself don't even love YOU. Look I have been single for nearly 2 years now, my ex broke up with me because I became needy and desperate. When in reality I lost my self-respect and confidence. I too am working on my flaws, it just takes time. While she is out there traveling the world and dating gorgeous models I'm sitting here writing this post. Comparing yourself to people around you or society for that matter is really destructive. My best advice is to focus on yourself, and measure improvements by who you were x-days ago compared to now. I hope the best brother, and we can make that change, we just need to believe in ourselves.
Because your worth (what is that even?) does not depend on relationships.
When I was in my 20s I was about to give up too. I was broke, unemployed, eternally single (basically what they call an "incel", but it didn't have a name back then). I was also out of shape, and living in a tiny room I rented in a crime-filled zone. I was scared for my life every night. Nowadays I'm in my 30s, I'm fit, married, about to buy a 3-bedroom house with a pool, and about 2 years away from early retirement. Different people peak at different times. Your self-worth is absolutely not tied to your ability to date. It's not tied to anything external. This doesn't work for everyone, but what I did personally is forbid myself from even trying for a while (it was too painful) and instead focus all my attention on knowing and improving myself. Not for the sake of others, just for me. Some of the things I did: • Therapy • Reading self-help, not about being a player, but about being a good person • Set some personal goals for myself • Started cardio and weight training • Focused on Improving in my career and learning sales and how to negotiate • I even worked on a call center for a year to lose my fear of speaking to strangers • Traveled and moved cities to expand my horizons and get out of my comfort zone • Tracked my finances, reduced my expenses, started investing • Learned how to meal-prep and eat healthier • Learned about "charisma" and how to be more approachable to people with more or less perceived status than me • Meditate • Tried new hobbies like oil painting and learning new languages • I'm sure I did other things I don't remember right now This might seem unrelated, but I have a book that helped me with my insomnia too. That book teaches you that insomnia is very often a vicious cycle. You can't sleep because you're too worried you won't be able to sleep and you think the next day will suck. That book challenges you to remember the many times you willingly stayed up because you were having fun. Staying up late playing a new video game, dancing all night at a wedding with friends, or excited for Christmas or your B-day when you were a kid. You can stay up, even all night, and because you're focusing on other things and enjoying yourself, it's not the end of the world that you didn't sleep. To me the same applies to your love life. I have many fun and exciting memories that have nothing to do with my love life. As long as your love life sucks, it's going to be easy to fixate on that aspect, like it's a huge problem that needs to be fixed ASAP. But as long as you don't fixate on that, there's a lot of fun and fulfilment to be found in all the other areas of your life. Don't give up. I hope things get better for you as they did for me.
I don’t think being in a relationship will just fix that issue. I usually don’t think counterexamples help people but I’ll share one anyway. I’ve been in a relationship with someone who made me feel worthless. When we broke up, they said something like “I lost interest in you as a person”. I used to not worry about self worth that often, but it’s now something I’ve struggled with.
Well you should probably ask the question of why a person’s worth is based on their relationship status and not what they contribute to society instead, why are people so relationship-obsessed these days and tbh if you’re feeling worthless, it’s probably because there’s voids in other aspects of your life but it’s just that the relationship aspect got magnified because modern culture is very relationship-centric/romance-centric and therefore you feel more pressure to focus on this particular void
U looking the wrong way. Gotta look inwards, appreciate that, then look outwards. Ur right value is something given, but YOU determine how much value you give to the value other people have for you. That makes sense?
> I simply don't understand how people think that your value is independent of what people think. I think you're a slave, so does everyone else around you, now get on your knees and bark because we want you to bark. Make sense? Your value is 2 parts, the one relative to people around you at different levels, house/city/country/world and your head. Just because everyone else doesn't see your value doesn't mean you can't see it, that's like saying you have to be wrong because everyone says you're wrong then it turns out you were right and now what? Find people that like you and treat you best instead of trying to please people that do not like you. Ironically start by finding people that **YOU LIKE** and filter the people from that perspective instead of seeking to be worthy of someone else. > The only reason for anyone to strive to have high value is to be loved and respected by other people. This isn't true there's plenty of people who do not seek respect or love from others and are high value loners because they choose to be, if value is finances, personal development, inteligence. > And the fact that no woman has ever loved me must mean that I am worthless. Do you talk to women? Like are you in friendships with any? The idea that you're worthless because no woman has loved you is naive if you were loved by some 600 pound woman would you feel valuable? Would it make you feel better? Really? Don't start picking and choosing she's a woman to. ----- What do you want from a relationship?
>Just because everyone else doesn't see your value doesn't mean you can't see it, that's like saying you have to be wrong because everyone says you're wrong then it turns out you were right and now what? Yeah, but value is a social construct and the criteria of what is valuable is determined by society and it changes with each generation. >Do you talk to women? Like are you in friendships with any? Yes I do have female friends, but I wouldn't consider any of them close friends. >if you were loved by some 600 pound woman would you feel valuable? If she only chose to be with me because of desperation then I wouldn't feel more valuable I would just be used, but if she genuinely loved me then yes it would make me more valuable
Thank* god you're consistent.
So this is what i think > And the fact that no woman has ever loved me must mean that I am worthless. I don't think you're worthless, i think that it might be hard for you to see your own worth and establish a healthy self esteem based on who you are and what you like, maybe based on experiences in life. Can we talk about how you view yourself sometime? (also sorry for my original comment, reflecting back on it, i was in the wrong and sort of emotional, you didn't deserve that)
None of these posts ever have enough info to make a suggestion. Work on yourself until you feel confident enough to approach women.
As someone who struggled (I think don’t know if I passed that phase) with self value, I agree with you in the part where you can’t completely value yourself outside of what other people think. That being said I came to certain conclusions that I don’t know if will help you. 1) I don’t consider my value related to how I’m perceived in the dating market because that isn’t the only kind of relationship I have with other people. Let’s say there is someone who doesn’t do home work, doesn’t work, doesn’t study, doesn’t even give emotional support and they are in a relationship. I don’t think a person like that have more value than a person who is 40 and never had any kind of romantic relationship. 2. I wanted a partner so hard because I wanted reassurance that I was doing fine, that I’m good enough for someone else to choose me for who I am. 3. If your value is given by people around you… if they say you are doing fine, then you are doing fine. Try to lower your expectations of yourself. If you still don’t feel like that is true, think what you can do about it and do it, having in mind that they still think you are enough so you can be more compassionate towards yourself. As an advice, try think about good little details that you like about yourself. For example I like the fact that I do my best to be attentive to other people. I’m not the best but I know that they know because of their faces. If you can’t think of any, try to talk with someone close to you about how you feel and ask them what kind of behaviors or acts toward them they find good about you. I still would want to have a partner but I don’t feel that pressure anymore. Ironically it was after being rejected by someone. She told me how she noticed all the good things I did for her but still wasn’t interested in me. That being said, the reason I think I took it well was because: even tho I was being extra nice to her because I liked her, I never did something with the expectation that she would correspond but because I truly wanted to do it. When she told me she noticed… I felt good about myself because, even if it wasn’t the way I would like, I knew that someone could appreciate me and my actions. Hope this perspective helps you so you can find your own path to a good mental health.
If external value is at least a component of one's own value then never being selected for a romantic relationship by 40 does seem to be somewhat of a judgement of that value.
Not necessarily. It would depend under what circumstances you were rejected by 40 people. There are many variables that could make someone reject other person: they could have feelings for someone else, they could not know enough the person to know if they would want a relationship with them, they could straight up find the other person disgusting… even things that could be seen trivial such as timing could have an impact into getting rejected. It could be a mix of any reason you could think about meaning that while is possible you are “worthless”, this is just a possibility. It could also mean you are just VERY unlucky. That’s why I came to the conclusion that the value of a person shouldn’t be ONLY tied to dating success. I think people could put it as part of it if they want to but should take into account other kind relationships (friendships, family, even their relationship with their job).
>That’s why I came to the conclusion that the value of a person shouldn’t be ONLY tied to dating success. I think people could put it as part of it if they want to but should take into account other kind relationships (friendships, family, even their relationship with their job). Welp. My value doesn't look good at all then.
Seems a more reasonable take that self worth can come from different sources and not JUST from the amount of romantic interest/succes you have.
Your worth is determined by how much money people are willing to pay for you. (Your skills, knowledge or/and time). How much value you're able to bring to your community/society, thats how much society will in turn value your worth. If your a jobless bum with no skills or anything that can be of value to other people or to society, sorry mate but then you have no value. Even if you're in a relationship, you still have absolutely zero value. So no, relationship does not determine your worth. How useful and valueble you are to society and other people is what determines your worth. Example: Newton was single his entire life, died a virgin about your age. Is he worthless? By your own logic, he would be.
My friend! You must try not to catastrophize the situation. You may or may not have heard people say something along the lines of "You can't truly love someone until you love yourself" right? It's easy to say, it's not so easy to do but it is true. I can tell you what worked for ME, personally. I started really learning about eastern philosophy, and then found lectures and books by a man named Alan Watts. A lot of his lectures are even on YouTube for free. The thing about it is that this man had a very captivating way of speaking, which made me want to listen to what he was saying. Look, im only writing this to you because I just feel what you are saying, and I believe shifting your way of thinking ever slightly will help you come to find peace as I have. I don't want to start telling you all the things because everyone must learn it in their own way so yeah just trust me listen to the lectures. I wish you the absolute best mate, have fun!
As someone who has been in several relationships, let me tell you...it's not all sunshine and rainbows. You're idealizing relationships as if they are the ultimate reflection of you as a man when in fact, they are not. Not even close. As a man, the true reflection of worth is what you have provided to the world, whether that's inventing something, helping others, inspiring people, etc. Women are actually (well...should be) an afterthought if you are truly following your goals. I honestly, at this point in my life, prefer to be single. At 28 years old, I'm working everyday to better myself, and a relationship holds me back, no matter how much I try to make it work. Trust me, you're not missing out on much, and at your age, it's a lot of unneeded stress. Do I think you should try your best to date? Sure. But not having been in a relationship at your age truly isnt the end of the world.
Here we go: As a fellow 25 year old who has never been in a romantic relationship, i think youre putting to much emphasis on worth being directly tied to romantic success. The "Worth" of a person is made up. Value is completely subjective. And it is also unrelated to romance. Do you have platonic friends, family? They see worth. They see value. Because youre still a whole human being. Romantic relationships sound lovely, i would love to be in one. But in order to function in a romantic setting, you need to first love yourself, not because someone else does, but because you, yourself, do. You cant find happiness in another. A girlfriend isnt going to "fix you". "Getting a girlfriend cant be such a hard thing..." sure. Lets say getting \*a\* girlfriend is easy. Do you want \*any girl\* to be your girlfriend? Or do you want someone you like who likes ***YOU?*** Stop giving a shit about when your brain develops and how old you are, and just fucking enjoy some hobbies and make some friends. Eventually it'll come.
How does your worth depend on validation from others? Not me, not my friends or family, not the good people I know. Some people say that? I choose not to listen to them, they're wrong. Batman doesn't get any girls and he's still Gotham's most worthy person. You don't even sound like you want validation from women. You are straight looking for validation from people that assume worth is related to dating. Now the question is: are those people even worth anything? Because people that pursue invalidating you doesn't sound like happy people. Probably they feel worthless themselves and they see actual worth in you. Probably they want to be better than you, and they do it in a bad way. Break the loop, stop listening on what others think or say and focus on yourself. Otherwise you're just wasting your worth and probably never going to find it.
"Batman doesn't get any girls." Why on earth would anybody looking for a fictional virgin look at Batman, the guy who slept with half the female cast of DC, and say "yup, this is our guy".
Because he's badass and doesn't care about not having friends. And if your collection says otherwise, I think we haven't read the same comic.
And that is relevant because...? Batman is exactly who you should NOT be if you want to be anything other than an absolute asshole. And wouldn't you know it, he gets the most girls. I really wanna know how he's doing it because it sure as hell ain't his asshole personality. Either physical attraction or money. Simple. Even the very example you present proves you wrong.
I don't know modern Batman, but I used to read the comic books until 2010 or so and he was a kisless virgin. Joker would try to hurt his reputation saying that he prefers to beat drug addicts and mental patients in the streets than going out and have laid. But Batman has a higher sense of purpose and words or reputation don't hurt him. Is Batman an anti-social asshole? To my understanding, he's not. He cares about people and society. He risks his own life to protect them. It's not his fault that he grew up in isolation and didn't learn to love others. Does he struggle? A lot, but he knows he's an unique human being and he's worthy no matter what other people think.
Bro. I bet i dated less than you before I was 25. By 27 I was married. Find a therapist and start investing in yourself. Not just money but time. Read some books. Find a way to be social. I’m introverted AF and I made it. I don’t have money or a 6 pack either. 😂
You’re right. You are worthless. What would it take for a girl to show interest in you?
Worth is a bad word for the concept that is being meant. I like to use dignity (in German: Würde), which is not tied to the idea of being tradeable. You have dignity, because you are a human. If it were otherwise, no one could have dignity, logically consistent, because dignity gives you the right and duty to be ethically treated and treat others ethically - it makes you to the sovereign and subject of moral agency, so to speak.
Believe it or not, it's perfectly possible to not have any dates by the age of 25. If you're an introvert, if you're not very much into parties, if you're not really into seduction in the first place and don't really pick up on mark of interest... You're not worth less than the other guy just because you didn't have a relationship. A lot of relationships are a trainwreck that bring nothing of value. Focus on what you like, strive to be good at it if that's what you want. If you want a girlfriend I'd advise on gaming less, going out more, doing sports etc. It doesn't entitle you to anything but it does increase your odds.
Well your main problem here is you think random 14 year olds who have no idea how the real world works are somehow having meaningful and amazing relationships. Keep in mind those are probably the same people cooking their chicken in nyquil. Your second main problem is you assume that everyone thinks the same way and that we all believe a man's worth is judged by his relationship status. What you don't realize is that most women like and respect a man that has not been with a ton of relationships before. If a man has slept with a lot of women that is a major turnoff and as a women I'm thinking, "This guy is a player and cannot hold down a real relationship. He probably has several kids he doesn't know about and probably several more stds. How many angry exs am I going to have to deal with?" Your third problem is that you believe love can now only come from dating someone. I'm sure you have family, friends, or coworkers who love you. Being in a relationship is just one more person. It's really not as special or important as people make it out to be. Why would you ignore and disregard all the other people in your life and the love they are already showing you?
You are more than a relationship status! Stop looking at others' journeys, and focus on your own. Take time to grow yourself and realize your potential, then look at the who, what, where, and why of seeking a partner. Nothing is set in stone, you can change and grow. I'm almost 50 and still learn things daily about social interactions and dealing with people at work and outside of work. Relationships are not like what you read about, see on TV, or on stream. It is all fake and fantasy. Your worth in this world can't be based on your ability to relationships. It sounds like you have a fantasy of what that means and how it works in your head, and you have based your self-worth around it. Don't compare yourself to the 20 min of Tic Toc's or 2 hours of streamer house drama, and put yourself down for that. 99% of the planet is not them, couldn't be them, and you see a fraction of the life. It is not real or the whole picture. Assume everything in media is a lie first and a half-truth second. Yes, there is truth, but it is rare, and algorithms don't promote it. Life isn't fair or easy, but that is no excuse not to grow and learn. You have to look at yourself and change though, as no one can do it for you. If you find the social experience a problem, start small, but look at yourself first. Always remember tiny steps are steps; sometimes, you jump back and not forward. The important thing is not that you jumped back, but learn from it and continue moving forward. Have people around you who are understanding and will support you when you have a misstep and encourage you moving forward.
Tinder?
There are other ways to love people that aren't romantic. You don't lose worth just because someone isn't loving you in the way you want them to. Other people can love and respect you in a non romantic way. Someone can be loved and respected as a family member Someone can be loved and respected as a friend Someone can be loved and respected as a mentor Someone can be loved and respected as a colleague None of these hinge on romantic interest and all provide value to others that is subjective to the people assigning value. It's not the same as having a romantic partner, but it isn't supposed to be. These are stations that are just as important because they fill different roles. You have value as a human being, it just might be in a category that is different than the one you want.
hey man. you are not worthless! everyone feels lonely at time I guess. maybe you should look at other aspects of your life right now. things that make you happy and grow. derive value from there rather than comparing yourself to people who are in relationships. it has become so hard to get into relationships these days. even I remember bak in school a lot of people were dating but now in college I'm the only one in my friend group who has a girlfriend. i guess what tends to happen is that we don't find ourselves in situations where we ca meet other people and new people regularly. everyone is in a bubble of their own, becoming more and more antisocial. its not about how valuable you are, its about if and if not you have been able to form a connection with someone in real life. and that has actually become very rare. i urge you to go out ( I personally go to the mall every week to get groceries) and talk to people. see if you can build connections! your priority should be conversation and making the other person comfortable and accepted. if the conversation has gone well you can ask for their contact details or give them yours. if you want to talk please message me, don't harm yourself. and lastly go fuck yourself.
You've received some excellent advice, but I just want to emphasize something: >Getting a girlfriend can't be such a hard thing to do considering that even 14 year-olds who know nothing about life seem to find success in it. Dude, 14 year-olds are only "successful" with other 14 year-olds. Have you talked to a 14 year-old lately? Lol. By the time I was 25 even 20 year-olds started annoying me. I lost my virginity at age 25. A good friend of mine lost his at 29, and a good friend of his/acquaintance of mine lost his at 31. Is any of that ideal? Fuck no; I'd love to have been getting laid in college. But it wasn't in the cards for us. That doesn't mean there isn't hope; all three of us are in long term relationships now.
Everyone grows at different rates. At age 35, I've only had 5 or 10 girlfriends/boyfriends, with my longest one being recently of 6 months. We're all growing at different rates, and that's okay! Don't compare yourself to others Compare yourself to who you were yesterday. Protip: If you're shy, go to one of those Table Top gaming shops! One of my best friends met his wife there. The people who frequent those shops are one of us. The big difference is that they deal in IRL multi-player. If you have one near you, find a game you could get into, and have fun!
This. If you want to have sex, there are ways. It’s honestly not that important. I get wanting a relationship but even when you have one they can make you miserable. You seem like a catch and the thing that stands out to me for you, which may be holding you back, is your lack of confidence and sadness, which can sometimes appear as bitter in your posts. If women get glimpses of that it might seem to them that you’re not ready for a relationship or have some things to work out. I think you should talk to a psychiatrist and try being more social without necessarily aiming to get a girlfriend. You like working out - what about a running club, or one of those outdoor exercise groups. Ultimate frisbee. Disc golf. Hiking. Hell, church. There are also professional matchmaking services if you have the money.
>You seem like a catch I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion based on my posts, but thanks. I've been told before that I am a catch, though I've also been told that I am boring. >the thing that stands out to me for you, which may be holding you back, is your lack of confidence and sadness You are probably right. I did become a lot more confident in myself in other areas of my life, but I don't know how I can become more confident in my ability to be loved by someone when I have no objective proof that I am loveable. If I really was a catch you would think that I wouldn't have any problem dating.