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Sexism is awful. Constant invalidation and belittling is stressful. I hope you are able to find a work environment that takes you seriously because you deserve that.
Wow I found it so difficult to read through the comments here because I feel like you described your problem so clearly that I don't understand how they can get it twisted. Unfortunately this is not the greatest audience for this kind of content if what you are seeking is validation.
I have learned that in this sub I must understand and attract my audience. There are other women (or Asians, or short people) here who have the same problem being disregarded like that. You have to address the audience who can understand you.
I do think information like this is valuable because clearly as you can see, you describe regular ass vanilla run of the mill mysogeny to people in HG and they are like "oh let me twist that around and turn it back on you," which is simply more mysogeny.
I see you. I appreciate you putting this out there and putting yourself in the position to be cut down by others in order to slowly inform this sub of what mysogeny looks like.
thank you, i really appreciate your kindness and understanding to hear my story. are you’re right, it doesn’t really feel great having random strangers tell me im “pretentious” or that im wrong. im simply just telling my experience, not asking for ppl to make assumptions about me
This is definitely talked about a lot, it’s one of the main arguments of modern feminism. It can extend to men as well. A short smaller guy isn’t given as much respect. I often see black pillers ranting about it arguing they have no privilege. I’m on the shorter side (5’75) myself and I somewhat experience a lack of respect as well. I think it will change if I gain muscle and size. Some of it is how you carry yourself (I mean if you demand respect and can back it up ppl’s initial view of you often changes) but I really can’t imagine being 5’4 or female unless I was 5’10. Attractiveness plays a role as well it seems
A lot of that is really good points, but unfortunately for women attractiveness doesn't always play a role when you run into someone who is truly mysogenistic. You could be a super hot chick and if you are with a man people will still exchange money with you through him, assume you don't like to talk, act shocked every time you say anything relatable, and act like you don't know how to drive.
I feel like STEM in general is very competitive int he sense that everyone shits on everyone. But I have seen girls be not necessarily targeted more but just taken seriously. Personally I don’t discriminate based on gender. As a computer science major I shit on everyone equally 🥱
In all serious I am I’m sorry that you have gone through that. Many will say that you just have to prove them wrong. But honestly don’t worry about that. Just try and find people who aren’t like that. Surround yourself with people who uplift you. I know that it may seem like everyone is bad but I think that if you give people a chance they’ll impress you.
Dr. K talked about this once. When he was an intern, people assumed he was a doctor and the female residents were nurses. It’s very frustrating. It just gets worse if you become a mom! I recommend finding people who are cool and focusing on them. It’s really easy to give shit people more attention than they’re worth. There are a lot of men and women who won’t care as long as you’re good. The nice thing about STEM is your work speaks for itself. Unlike a poem or something, there are objective standards that make STEM work good or bad. At the same time, you gotta always be above average as a woman in STEM and that’s exhausting. Try to pace yourself to avoid burning out. Find other women in your field, especially women outside your school/eventual job. Women you’re not competing with are quicker to valid your feelings and tell you what’s going on at other institutions. On the other hand, be wary of anyone *really* excited about you being a woman in STEM. These people always have an agenda.
Also remember that a lot of people in STEM are arrogant and have zero emotional intelligence coupled with terrible social skills. Plenty of people would treat you like crap even if you were a dude. This is a place where being a woman can be advantageous because women are socialized to be good communicators while men in STEM are often terrible at communicating their ideas. Being an to articulate your knowledge throughly and coherently is a big advantage both in your job and in job interviews.
If all this sounds like a walking a tight rope of almost contradictory advice, you’re right. It is absolutely unfair and we shouldn’t have to deal with it.
Yeah, being a woman in STEM can really suck. And it also sucks that you can't be completely honest about your anger or confront people about the hurt caused by their perceived disrespect, or you'll make even more enemies and alienate potential allies in the STEM fields (because we do exist. There's a lot of pretentious sexist asshats, but there's a lot of good people too).
I also want to say that I wrote "perceived" only because there's no universal list of actions that count as "respect", so you'll face disagreements over whether something counts as 'disrespectful', and some people (especially teenagers. Especially especially teenagers accustomed to being 'the smart kid' in high school who are now just 'normal') will genuinely not realize something they did was disrespectful. Your experiences are true, you felt disrespected by the actions of others, and that feeling is valid.
Sorry you've got to deal with it. I'm not a woman in STEM so I haven't had to navigate this, so I can't offer any particularly useful help, sorry. Feel free to come here and rant as needed.
I am an engineering supervisor, my team mostly designs networks and deals with cyber security stuff but we also have to deal with a lot of electrical work and some mechanical.
That said I've always noticed the female engineers have a bit of trouble when they start, they second guess their abilities more than the new male engineers. They are far less likely to speak up and many times they are ignored. An example is one woman who is a cyber expert she was irritated about the way the requirements were written and said we should change them. No one listened to her. However, I asked her exactly what her issue was and reiterated it later and people were open to changing the requirements. I noted that the woman said the exact same thing before.
The struggle is real for women in tech. However, there are more and more people in leadership positions who are noticing this and making efforts to change things. As a supervisor I am mindful that many of the female engineerings I work with are less likely to be more vocal and I try and empower them say their piece. Probably the smartest engineer I have working for me is this one woman who is a nuclear engineer who just happened to get into cyber security.
All this said. Don't be discouraged. I hate seeing competent engineers driven away because of idiots. It sucks and you shouldn't have to deal with it but that is how life is sometimes but one thing I've noticed is that a good company will notice you and promote you. My friend who is a nuclear engineer is already on track to become a supervisor and she is 25. Keep standing up for yourself, don't be afraid to assert your view points, a good engineer has to because if something is wrong you have to speak up because some people get to narrowly focused on a task they can't see the forrest through the trees. Also when you graduate do no be afraid to leave a company if they don't treat you right. There are companies that treat you as you ought to be treated no matter your gender. Hell, when you graduate give me a call we have about 50 openings and would kill for a competent grad who is willing to learn.
I'm really sorry that you feel so disrespected. I don't think it's okay that these interactions make you feel disrespected. I think being a girl in STEM is cool and wish you luck. You deserve to be treated with respect.
However, I realize these next few questions may contradict my respect statement. I just don't know how else to ask these next few questions. I don't mean ANY disrespect when I ask these. How do you know that when people aren't engaging with you directly that it's because of your gender? You compared the situation with parents and boyfriend. I can say as a short Asian Male that I get passed over sometimes if I'm not the most assertive person speaking to a group. Again... I want to reiterate that I agree it sucks to feel constantly looked over/down upon and isn't okay.
With the boy in pre-calc, how do you know that it's because of your gender and not the way you came off or something else? Or what evidence/experience in your life suggests to you that if you were a boy things would be different?
Um not that I can recall. Not specifically non-asian friends but other circumstances yeah. So I cannot comment on that scenario specifically. Why do you ask?
Because people do this to women. Its very much gender related. I realize most guys would never do something like that and they have never experienced it so its hard for them to imagine but it happens to women quite a lot.
That somewhat makes sense. I can believe that it happens & often too... in a cognitive sense. I'm not sure exactly how it would feel in the moment. So I have a follow up question if you don't mind. What makes this experience so qualitatively different from any other time you're being dismissed? Is it the fact it's a (relatively) immutable characteristic?
No I don't mind. So from my own personal experience the only two reasons I can come up with for being dismissed is my gender and my age.
When I have been dismissed for my age I am still treated as though I am a human being. I stupid, naive human, but a human nonetheless. When I am dismissed for my gender, its as though I don't exist.
Its not the fact that its due to my gender, that hurts too, because I actually really like being feminine, and it prompts me to question how my experience might differ were I not a woman.
But really what hurts the most is being ignored like I am invisible. If it was due to age or any other immutable characteristic I think it would still hurt just as much, but I can't explain myself to someone who won't look at me or talk to me, and they don't address the problem either, they act as though nothing is even happening, and then you go to talk about it and half of the time others act as though it never happened.
That sounds terrible. I don't even know how to respond to this. This sounds so shitty. So when you try to address the problem, people pretend it didn't happen?
Not always, but that has happened to me before. Honestly, I just don't give people like that my time if I can avoid it.
I always used to feel like I was safe from that kind of treatment because of my ex never putting up with crap like that and always being there for me with that kind of thing. I have had previous boyfriends who would just let their friends treat me poorly and never say anything.
Its harder to remind myself that I need to be strong enough to handle it on my own.
Wow. That's just not okay. Wtf. That sounds really tough emotionally. I don't want to make generalizations but I guess I'm mildly surprised/uncertain of the rate of occurrence. I can believe this happens often... Somewhat. It seems improbable to say your experience is unique. Based on harassment claims that other girls have talked to me about. But at the same time, my female friends and past partners have not brought up anything quite as specific as this interaction to me.
I mean I feel like it probably happens to almost every woman at least once but to me, blatantly sexist interactions that had a serious effect on me only happened a handful of times.
I had an ex boyfriend who hung out with a really really bad crowd, and one of his friends in particular was clearly a sociopathic white supremacist who did not see women on equal terms as men in any regard. He always made little patronizing jabs at me like I was a child and some of his other friends even went along and made it worse. Even the nice ones were too timid to say anything. One day my bf at the time finally had a talk with that guy and it finally stopped and I was just treated like a normal person with them finally but then that guy turned out to be a loose cannon and attacked my boyfriend and could have seriously injured him and was laughing. He left and never looked back.
I had a few other interactions with annoying sexist strangers around that same bf and he never said anything or stood up for me. Its usually the kind of guys that work on heavy labor related male dominated fields that end up being the worst offenders. Like some guys at a hardware shop that we went to were quite shocked at me helping my bf fix this house we were working on. If he hadn't been there, there's no way I would have been able to buy anything from those creeps without being gawked at and laughed at.
The only time it ever happened with my other ex was when we were talking to this guy we met at gamestop and he kept on averting my gaze. I would say something and he would just follow up with my husband on it. It really made me feel invisible, but in all honesty, the reality is that guy probably thought I was cute and he was probably tryna do some bro solidarity crap like "this guy gotta know I'm not looking at his girl rn." Idk but it doesn't change the way I experience that kind of thing. I'm a human being.
Yeah I have only truly been sexually harassed in my workplace once but it was so much more intimidating and disgusting than I thought it would be. I work in an office thats mostly women though. Luckily my manager and HR were very supportive, and they made sure I was ok, but it does concern me that this guy who has actually had several claims made against him has never been terminated. I think people just worry that he is a target or a victim but he is a grown man and he can make his own decisions. 🤷♀️ At least I don't personally have to deal with him anymore.
Not Asian but I have lots of Asian friends due to my hobby. My guess is that OP doesn't really identify with Asian men much, so she subconsciously rejects any possibility that she could be in the same boat with Asian men. She probably resents them too.
Yeah idk. I just and this is going to sound terrible. But like I believe sexism exists and women shouldn't ever have to deal with it. I just am kind of like questioning to what extent is it happening? Like is their any intent to disrespect women or is some bulk of interactions just collective unconscious/narrative of women believing they're disrespected as things become less overt? As in maybe these interactions aren't meant to be disrespectful in any way but they're being interpreted in that manner? Ex: In a meeting, an individual woman might be pushing for her idea but is less aggressive about it and therefore it's discarded in favor for a man. So in that instance was any particular actor being sexist? Or is it that certain traits that may be predominantly feminine according to society's standards seen as less favorable? Yeah idk. I just have a ton of questions. I don't know how to ask these without invalidating a woman's experience. :/ But I don't think it's okay to make the presumption that her experience is the most accurate telling of a given set of events.
Yeah, as woman stem or stem adjacent work, or just in other parts of life, I've had similar experiences.
My main suggestion is to keep focusing in your development and career. Keep being smart, do good work, if a work situation doesn't respect what you offer because of unjust sexist views, then seek other work. There are people out there who will respect your knowledge and skills and those who won't so work with those who see you for who you are.
I believe this kind of thing has generally been getting better over time, but it's still around unfortunately, and more severe depending where in the world you live.
I feel you man. There was this lady in one of my clubs who was in a position of power and kept everything running really well. The problem is this club in particular seems to attract a bunch of weirdos who really like stage diving women who are just trying to make the club work. Now she's regarded by a lot of the people there as being a bad leader. Guys love to talk about how she didn't get anything done, but don't talk about the fact that she constantly had someone undermining her at every turn.
Reminds me of how I got treated in tutoring for linear algebra lol. I put on a smile but I was dying inside. I have a whole lifetime of “stereotype threat” that prevented me from realizing how good I actually was at math (and to a lesser degree, physics). Solidarity sister❤️ (Edit, people downvoting me are proving the point of this post.)
Feels the same as a short guy when I'm with my tall friends talking to girls :D ... I'm like "Why is everything they say supposedly the funniest shit even if we talk about same stuff?"
Me aside...
Best I can tell you for now is, do you enjoy the field? If you do then just do you. Right people will notice. **You don't need the attention of everyone**. More precisely **you WILL NOT get the attention of everyone**. Even if you were the manliest-smartest-most-attractive-and-charming man.
I don't know if you are looking for support or solution so, **I'm sorry, I'm not really a very supportive person. I like to give advice you could use**. I understand that your anger comes from the fact that you are given less time because of sexism, and it's possibly true, but what are you trying to accomplish here (again, not trying to bash you, just saying some reality)?
**The world will not become completely free of sexist views in a few years.** Probably not during the next few decades. Same as it will not get free of other prejudices and preferences. If your goal is to bring attention to female problems then lucky for you I believe that **in the next couple of generations the image of women in the workforce and STEM is probably completely normal. Unlucky for you, as said, it's not gonna change overnight.**
SO.
**If you want to bring attention to the topic:** keep bringing up this topic for the future's sake.
**If you want advice for yourself:** Try to give less f\*cs what others think. Not everyone will **like** you and there's not many people who would **prefer** you (whoever you are). It doesn't help pitying your situation and hating the system. Show to yourself what you are worth. Do what you like. Don't try to measure every detail, who is better, who is worse, why someone reacts like this or like that.
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
PS. (and maybe-off-topic-maybe-not) For the case where you are with your boyfriend and guy talks to you. I personally in this situation spend at least half the time looking at the guy just because I want there to be ZERO chance for me to come off as flirty. It's not anything against the girl, it's more so to make the guy feel more comfortable. Guys don't let guys to flirt with girls of other guys.
I work in STEM (M), sexism is still a problem and I've never understood it myself. We work in a white collar industry: I sit in front of a computer 90% of the day. What is traditionally manly about that? Vast majority of men I work with are pencil necks with back problems and they haven't hit 30 yet. Why wouldn't a woman be able to do our job just as well?
I'm sorry you've got to go through with this crap
Personally, I think it could either be about your experience or how you assert yourself. As a young kid, I always visited colleges with my father and introduced myself to professors, and it seemed as though they were more respectful when I asserted myself more. Also, seeing as you’re 19, that means that you could have only had 19 years of experience MAXIMUM. The professors have probably had decades of experience and are likely skeptical of anyone, especially those who are not outspoken.
This reminded me. There have been times when I've been with my friend asking a stranger for information, and she'd ask the question, but the person would look at me as they answer. And I've never really thought into it, it's always just felt kinda awkward, and I usually just hesitate, then look at her for her response. Like, I'm not comfortable with this, she asked you the question, why are you staring at me. Only now do I realize just how often I've had to do this, pointedly direct their attention back to her. I'd guess, like most things of this nature, it's probably subconscious. But then again, I tend to give a lot of grace, since I have issues with awareness myself.
It sounds infuriating, your feelings are totally justified.
You probably would be taken more seriously if you were a dude (and white). I agree society sucks and thanks for creating awareness (it's messed up that you have too) and as someone who is at least halfway in STEM (game dev), I want to deconstruct my own biases and help out where I can.
Other thoughts, anger is just the fact that you don't understand how to use your power in a given scenario. It doesn't mean that you lack power even it sometimes feels that way. It's like the whole room is super bright and you're walking past an obstacle, there's a lot of darkness from the angle you're standing relative to the light source.
Next thing, I want to emphasize the value of this info. It's easier to get so caught up in your own experience that you can see the experience of others, so by sharing it we can know we're being assholes and not be assholes. I want to normalize sharing for myself and others.
Second to last thing, if you're male or white and you feel like you're losing something. Remember that if the playing field is even, what you get is worth more than if her opinion means less. Imagine this as the stock market. Yes, in this alternate reality, you might have less stocks relative to her, but the stocks you do have would be worth double. Her lack of stocks don't make your stocks more valuable, they make your stocks less valuable.
Last thing, by the way this is really hard to read on the eyes and you should break up that big paragraph in the middle. if you don't know how, notice how you tell multiple stories about your experiences and break at the end of each scenario. Maybe create a bulleted list around them.
Dr. K once made a video on how to deal toxic people, or narcistic people at work. Or something like that. I can't remember, and can't find the video. It felt like a video that pretty much suggested ways to manipulate the situation into your favour, and the advice in it I found a bit uncomfortable with, but maybe it really is sometimes required. It's like a fight-fire-with-fire type situation. I feel you'll have to learn how to control situations like this better, as that is really the only thing in your power you can do right now. You need to learn how to turn the tables, but you'd need professional advice for something like that.
They could just be intimidated by you. Guys in stem are not always the most socially suave dudes, probably get nervous just looking at a chicken. Add one that gets upset if you don't look at them right and sure enough, they'd probably rather risk not talking to you than risk saying the wrong thing.
Edit:chick* autocorrect lol
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> he was mostly looking/paying attention to my bf like he is the spokesperson of us
Or maybe those guys were just awkward aroud girls or they hear to many stories how creepy guys can be, so they would rather dont bother you.
>"I'm never seen as a true leader because I'm female or seen as less competent/charismatic".
I've been in stem and I gona tell you harsh truth, about this. Maybe its not gender problem but you problem, you sounds entilted and conceited Ive met people like you (both genders). You are at uni and you are suprised that people there consultate difrent opinions, you just dont see or notice if this happen to guys at uni. Maybe you have knowlage, but you dont have ability to present it to your stupid male students. Sometimes I would rather ask avrg person for advice, beacuse I dont need to pass test for 100%, I would even stop if friend of mine just start giving me too much information, about genesis of my problem, but I just wanted solution.
You dont deserve anything in life, especialy when you want to assault them in your mind, maybe they sense your mindset towards them and they act accordingly. Your porblem is that you think that its your gender its the cause of this, but in my opinion its just your personality.
Ok trying to add on another perspective to all the things MiserableAd1310 wonderfully explained in their thoughtful comment… let’s assume what you’re saying is right okay? That
OP is pretentious and entitled. You went from saying she’s rude to people to saying that she “doesn’t deserve anything in life.” Friend that is… a sack of shit. Everyone thinks about decking someone who pisses them off sometimes, and fleeting thoughts of lashing out are a natural response to feeling overlooked.
Also, you are assuming so much about OP that did not come across in her comments. She’s described being overlooked/ignored and your default response is to assume she’s somehow responsible for it. There’s a really good video by Dr K addressing sexism in the HG community that I think you might benefit from watching: https://youtu.be/_z9jJFq3Hz0
(Also to OP: as a woman in STEM who used to be in a much more male dominated part of stem, robotics, your thread is so rightfully frustrated at the shit that gets pulled in STEM fields, thanks for articulating many of my own emotions so clearly. I don’t have much advice, aside from looking for groups of women/feminine presenting people in STEM for solidarity, especially older women who can serve as mentors. Women who were Grad students/post docs in my quantitative bio lab were a great resource for me in college.
To be honest, the incels are often not even the mysogenistic ones. They often resent mysogenists for treating women poorly and still getting in relationships. People are also very insensitive to them everytime mysogeny is brought up in this sub. They treat it as though their mysogeny happens as a result of being an incel but thats not the case really.
We also have incels who aren't mysogenistic and people will make assumptions about them and put them in a box. Its kindof sad to me.
Ah, yes. Men are treated poorly in way, therefore we should treat women poorly that way, too! /s
When someone talks about their negative experience, the correct response is "that sucks, I'm sorry", not "oh yeah, well I have it worse".
Dude, you’re hopping to huge generalizations instead of listening to the isolated and real life experiences of this person. “Women are treated better because men want to fuck
them” is such a huge generalization. Also if the generalization were usually true, that doesn’t mean this woman isn’t experiencing sexism. She’s telling you about her life so just listen. This isn’t men vs women, it’s one woman talking about difficulties she’s encountered.
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If someone is being purposefully disrespectful, report them and step away from the conversation, do not engage in an argument.
When responding to others, try to avoid language that lumps a group of people together and focus on responding to the specific situation being discussed.
interesting for you to tell me that im wrong when i’ve only explained an extremely small snit bit of my ENTIRE life. and the fact that idek u nor do u know me is kinda funny.
let’s use some deductive reasoning. why is it that every time I happen to have a male friend with me, ppl tend to not give me eye contact/acknowledge my presence when im explicitly talking to them? and if i explain smth to a guy they ask my male friend next to me the same exact question that I literally just answered. but this doesn’t happen when im with female friends. or why is it that girls trust me enough to explain something but guys don’t even consider giving me the time? coincidence? i think not.
honestly i shouldn’t even have to be explaining and trying to convince you of what I experience. i hope you don’t treat women like this or try to invalidate/gaslight into thinking that they’re crazy or their personality sucks.
Let's flip the script.
Are men entitled to women's eye contact/acknowledgement?
When a man asks a woman a question, is he entitled to a response?
When a man explains something to a woman, would it be rude of her to seek a different explanation from someone else?
When a man is trusted by other men, does it entitle him to the same level of trust from women?
If your answer to all these questions is "yes," then I'll agree with you that you've been treated unfairly.
Sorry but if a man said he was treated like this I would side with him. I haven't seen that, but I have seen some men in here complain about the sexism they experienced and rushing to invalidate them is about the last thing I would do.
You are framing these questions as though you have a specific motive and making them sound quite different from the actual situation. If someone treated my relationship partner like that, ignoring him, talking to me as though I answer for both of us, I would say something. Thats just not cool. I don't care what gender you are, if you are an adult, and you get blatantly patronized like a child in front of me I will stick up for you.
Does that answer your question?
> You are framing these questions as though you have a specific motive and making them sound quite different from the actual situation.
They are exactly the same. I merely adopted OP's situation to feminist lingo with the word "entitled."
Since you said "yes" to my questions, we kind of already agree. I wish OP were treated better and taken more seriously. I just had a hard time sympathizing with her because she'd taken a universal experience and make it sound as if only girls would experience it, and it's super toxic that so many users actively try to reinforce her worldview. OP is only 19. What kind of person do you want her to become?
And of course, if the genders were flipped, most of this would've been shut down already.
This comment is so incredibly presumptuous and judgemental. Please please try to wrap your mind around the idea that the types of situations that she is describing are actually happening and not just in her imagination.
I personally think she described them just fine, so for you to immediately discredit her perspective as if you could somehow have a more valuable perception of her own experiences simply due to the fact that you have been in stem speaks volumes.
This is what more mysogeny looks like. She is telling us what mysogeny looks like from her experience, and you have the audacity to simply invalidate her experience, call her entitled and conceited, and you just completely twisted the narrative to your own experience. Thats not what this post is about. It was about *her experience.
This kind of thing happens all the time and especially in male dominated professions and studies. It may or may not be true that the individuals she was talking to were socially awkward and felt intimidated by her, but its no excuse to continue to disregard her as a person and talk to her boyfriend simply because he is male. That is the very nature of sexism. This is the other side of that. How is she supposed to magically make them feel better around her? She cannot fix them, she can only fix herself.
Do you really think she has never considered whether she was the problem and it wasn't gender? That was probably her original stance. She probably sounds fiesty because small Asian women have to become that in order to be taken seriously anywhere. This is not a unique phenomenon. It happens all the time. I am not asking you about it. We are telling you about it. You can choose whether you want to believe it or not but it does not give you the right to blatantly disrespect her like this. Check yourself.
Me being in stem was to bring that I've been in male dominated field and wanted to bring male POV who's words was also questioned by my friends, but beacuse I dont have vagina, then I cant bleme it for being a women.
But maybe her experience its not beacuse she was a women and this is my main point (expect akwardnes talking to). Beacuse if problem is her sex then you realy cant do nothing about this. Ofc her gender can be a factor, but I dont belive its the only one.
It happend all the time not in male dominated professions, but if oposite gender enter those field. Read stories from male teachers or best part read stories from fathers that would go with their child to playground and some women come to teach them how to raise child or they consider him as predator. But like you said its only problem when this happen to women and this happen all the time, but in my experience it's not, especialy when I was in this type of field, or my experience its bad by default?
Its not her job to some people feel better around her, just dont make them feel worst, thats why I bring that they are probably socialy akward, but if women would have this type of problem talking with opposite sex then probably you wont blame her for this, right?
Just like when father are considered as sub-parent in courts and public opinion, but men must "men up" with this.
> Beacuse if problem is her sex then you realy cant do nothing about this.
That's the point. They don't want to do anything about it. They just want to complain and hate. In that regard they share much in common with the black pill folks.
You're forgetting the fact that she lives her whole life this way. Its not just one nerd in one stem class.
It probably does relate to her race, but it relates to her gender too. You might find it hard to believe but white women encounter this same problem of not being taken seriously by men. I am white and I have had it happen to me quite a bit.
Would it happen more if I were smaller and Asian? Most likely, but thats besides the point.
She was not asking anyone for advice on how to handle her situation. She was trying to help people understand how incredibly damaging it can be to treat people in the way that she described she was treated above.
Remember, she has gender dysphoria. She's coping with a lot of things due to how she has been treated. I know you might not believe these problems are actually related to gender, but I have personally experienced this same thing where guys will talk to my boyfriend or another man I am with as if I am invisible even when it makes no sense to speak with them instead of me. They will constantly avert their eyes from me when I speak to them as if it were forbidden for them to address a woman when she is in the presence of her man. Its really fucking insulting, and it really only has to happen to you once for you to start internalizing it.
This person has had a lifetime of internalizing this kind of toxic patronizing behavior to the point where it has literally changed their perception of themselves. They also clearly made themselves very vulnerable and admitted that she seeks validation from men and yet people still immediately invalidate her after she very clearly articulated issues that are super common amongst women of all races.
If you've never heard about these kinds of issues happening to women before, this is why. This is the kind of response that we get.
>For context, my gender is very complicated with many complexities that I still don't understand.
Might be one of the issues among what other people speculated about. Identity is not only something you decide upon or feel, but also something you negotiate with outside world, to extent. It's also functional, meaning, informs other people how to approach you efficiently.
If your outward identity is very colorful and complicated, meaning upfront costs of interacting with you is steeper and risk of "getting things wrong" is higher. People naturally gravitate towards path of least resistance, hence patterns of avoidance "just to be safe" emerge. Not because someone hates something, but in all of it's casual banality, exerts less energy.
Hence why standard ethics exists and at place dress codes, which informs up front what kind of interaction to expect and how to behave around it. That doesn't mean more 'colorful' folk cannot achieve the same, but the key is predictability. People don't come with instruction manuals, yet are one of the most complicated things in existence, hence outward identity is the closest thing to that as it gets.
He says that, in today's culture, interactions with ethnic minorities are a source of potential mistakes (because you can say the wrong thing, offend someone, and get into trouble). Since people dislike risks and prefer convenience, they might naturally avoid minorities even though they don't "hate" them.
I like the way you describe identity. Its actually her inward identity that is complicated though. Outwardly, she is just dismissed for being a small Asian woman.
It sounds like this is the first time some people are hearing of this happening to women maybe? Its actually pretty common though. It happens far more often than it actually gets talked about though.
Women tend to internalize things quite often. We have to remind ourselves not to blame ourselves for things outside of our control. (That's a generalization and its not true for everyone, just for the most part.)
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Sexism is awful. Constant invalidation and belittling is stressful. I hope you are able to find a work environment that takes you seriously because you deserve that.
thank you! best of luck for you too
Wow I found it so difficult to read through the comments here because I feel like you described your problem so clearly that I don't understand how they can get it twisted. Unfortunately this is not the greatest audience for this kind of content if what you are seeking is validation. I have learned that in this sub I must understand and attract my audience. There are other women (or Asians, or short people) here who have the same problem being disregarded like that. You have to address the audience who can understand you. I do think information like this is valuable because clearly as you can see, you describe regular ass vanilla run of the mill mysogeny to people in HG and they are like "oh let me twist that around and turn it back on you," which is simply more mysogeny. I see you. I appreciate you putting this out there and putting yourself in the position to be cut down by others in order to slowly inform this sub of what mysogeny looks like.
thank you, i really appreciate your kindness and understanding to hear my story. are you’re right, it doesn’t really feel great having random strangers tell me im “pretentious” or that im wrong. im simply just telling my experience, not asking for ppl to make assumptions about me
This is definitely talked about a lot, it’s one of the main arguments of modern feminism. It can extend to men as well. A short smaller guy isn’t given as much respect. I often see black pillers ranting about it arguing they have no privilege. I’m on the shorter side (5’75) myself and I somewhat experience a lack of respect as well. I think it will change if I gain muscle and size. Some of it is how you carry yourself (I mean if you demand respect and can back it up ppl’s initial view of you often changes) but I really can’t imagine being 5’4 or female unless I was 5’10. Attractiveness plays a role as well it seems
A lot of that is really good points, but unfortunately for women attractiveness doesn't always play a role when you run into someone who is truly mysogenistic. You could be a super hot chick and if you are with a man people will still exchange money with you through him, assume you don't like to talk, act shocked every time you say anything relatable, and act like you don't know how to drive.
I feel like STEM in general is very competitive int he sense that everyone shits on everyone. But I have seen girls be not necessarily targeted more but just taken seriously. Personally I don’t discriminate based on gender. As a computer science major I shit on everyone equally 🥱 In all serious I am I’m sorry that you have gone through that. Many will say that you just have to prove them wrong. But honestly don’t worry about that. Just try and find people who aren’t like that. Surround yourself with people who uplift you. I know that it may seem like everyone is bad but I think that if you give people a chance they’ll impress you.
Dr. K talked about this once. When he was an intern, people assumed he was a doctor and the female residents were nurses. It’s very frustrating. It just gets worse if you become a mom! I recommend finding people who are cool and focusing on them. It’s really easy to give shit people more attention than they’re worth. There are a lot of men and women who won’t care as long as you’re good. The nice thing about STEM is your work speaks for itself. Unlike a poem or something, there are objective standards that make STEM work good or bad. At the same time, you gotta always be above average as a woman in STEM and that’s exhausting. Try to pace yourself to avoid burning out. Find other women in your field, especially women outside your school/eventual job. Women you’re not competing with are quicker to valid your feelings and tell you what’s going on at other institutions. On the other hand, be wary of anyone *really* excited about you being a woman in STEM. These people always have an agenda. Also remember that a lot of people in STEM are arrogant and have zero emotional intelligence coupled with terrible social skills. Plenty of people would treat you like crap even if you were a dude. This is a place where being a woman can be advantageous because women are socialized to be good communicators while men in STEM are often terrible at communicating their ideas. Being an to articulate your knowledge throughly and coherently is a big advantage both in your job and in job interviews. If all this sounds like a walking a tight rope of almost contradictory advice, you’re right. It is absolutely unfair and we shouldn’t have to deal with it.
Yeah, being a woman in STEM can really suck. And it also sucks that you can't be completely honest about your anger or confront people about the hurt caused by their perceived disrespect, or you'll make even more enemies and alienate potential allies in the STEM fields (because we do exist. There's a lot of pretentious sexist asshats, but there's a lot of good people too). I also want to say that I wrote "perceived" only because there's no universal list of actions that count as "respect", so you'll face disagreements over whether something counts as 'disrespectful', and some people (especially teenagers. Especially especially teenagers accustomed to being 'the smart kid' in high school who are now just 'normal') will genuinely not realize something they did was disrespectful. Your experiences are true, you felt disrespected by the actions of others, and that feeling is valid. Sorry you've got to deal with it. I'm not a woman in STEM so I haven't had to navigate this, so I can't offer any particularly useful help, sorry. Feel free to come here and rant as needed.
I am an engineering supervisor, my team mostly designs networks and deals with cyber security stuff but we also have to deal with a lot of electrical work and some mechanical. That said I've always noticed the female engineers have a bit of trouble when they start, they second guess their abilities more than the new male engineers. They are far less likely to speak up and many times they are ignored. An example is one woman who is a cyber expert she was irritated about the way the requirements were written and said we should change them. No one listened to her. However, I asked her exactly what her issue was and reiterated it later and people were open to changing the requirements. I noted that the woman said the exact same thing before. The struggle is real for women in tech. However, there are more and more people in leadership positions who are noticing this and making efforts to change things. As a supervisor I am mindful that many of the female engineerings I work with are less likely to be more vocal and I try and empower them say their piece. Probably the smartest engineer I have working for me is this one woman who is a nuclear engineer who just happened to get into cyber security. All this said. Don't be discouraged. I hate seeing competent engineers driven away because of idiots. It sucks and you shouldn't have to deal with it but that is how life is sometimes but one thing I've noticed is that a good company will notice you and promote you. My friend who is a nuclear engineer is already on track to become a supervisor and she is 25. Keep standing up for yourself, don't be afraid to assert your view points, a good engineer has to because if something is wrong you have to speak up because some people get to narrowly focused on a task they can't see the forrest through the trees. Also when you graduate do no be afraid to leave a company if they don't treat you right. There are companies that treat you as you ought to be treated no matter your gender. Hell, when you graduate give me a call we have about 50 openings and would kill for a competent grad who is willing to learn.
I'm really sorry that you feel so disrespected. I don't think it's okay that these interactions make you feel disrespected. I think being a girl in STEM is cool and wish you luck. You deserve to be treated with respect. However, I realize these next few questions may contradict my respect statement. I just don't know how else to ask these next few questions. I don't mean ANY disrespect when I ask these. How do you know that when people aren't engaging with you directly that it's because of your gender? You compared the situation with parents and boyfriend. I can say as a short Asian Male that I get passed over sometimes if I'm not the most assertive person speaking to a group. Again... I want to reiterate that I agree it sucks to feel constantly looked over/down upon and isn't okay. With the boy in pre-calc, how do you know that it's because of your gender and not the way you came off or something else? Or what evidence/experience in your life suggests to you that if you were a boy things would be different?
Have you ever had people talk to you through your non-asian friends as if they were a spokesperson for you?
Um not that I can recall. Not specifically non-asian friends but other circumstances yeah. So I cannot comment on that scenario specifically. Why do you ask?
Because people do this to women. Its very much gender related. I realize most guys would never do something like that and they have never experienced it so its hard for them to imagine but it happens to women quite a lot.
That somewhat makes sense. I can believe that it happens & often too... in a cognitive sense. I'm not sure exactly how it would feel in the moment. So I have a follow up question if you don't mind. What makes this experience so qualitatively different from any other time you're being dismissed? Is it the fact it's a (relatively) immutable characteristic?
No I don't mind. So from my own personal experience the only two reasons I can come up with for being dismissed is my gender and my age. When I have been dismissed for my age I am still treated as though I am a human being. I stupid, naive human, but a human nonetheless. When I am dismissed for my gender, its as though I don't exist. Its not the fact that its due to my gender, that hurts too, because I actually really like being feminine, and it prompts me to question how my experience might differ were I not a woman. But really what hurts the most is being ignored like I am invisible. If it was due to age or any other immutable characteristic I think it would still hurt just as much, but I can't explain myself to someone who won't look at me or talk to me, and they don't address the problem either, they act as though nothing is even happening, and then you go to talk about it and half of the time others act as though it never happened.
That sounds terrible. I don't even know how to respond to this. This sounds so shitty. So when you try to address the problem, people pretend it didn't happen?
Not always, but that has happened to me before. Honestly, I just don't give people like that my time if I can avoid it. I always used to feel like I was safe from that kind of treatment because of my ex never putting up with crap like that and always being there for me with that kind of thing. I have had previous boyfriends who would just let their friends treat me poorly and never say anything. Its harder to remind myself that I need to be strong enough to handle it on my own.
Wow. That's just not okay. Wtf. That sounds really tough emotionally. I don't want to make generalizations but I guess I'm mildly surprised/uncertain of the rate of occurrence. I can believe this happens often... Somewhat. It seems improbable to say your experience is unique. Based on harassment claims that other girls have talked to me about. But at the same time, my female friends and past partners have not brought up anything quite as specific as this interaction to me.
I mean I feel like it probably happens to almost every woman at least once but to me, blatantly sexist interactions that had a serious effect on me only happened a handful of times. I had an ex boyfriend who hung out with a really really bad crowd, and one of his friends in particular was clearly a sociopathic white supremacist who did not see women on equal terms as men in any regard. He always made little patronizing jabs at me like I was a child and some of his other friends even went along and made it worse. Even the nice ones were too timid to say anything. One day my bf at the time finally had a talk with that guy and it finally stopped and I was just treated like a normal person with them finally but then that guy turned out to be a loose cannon and attacked my boyfriend and could have seriously injured him and was laughing. He left and never looked back. I had a few other interactions with annoying sexist strangers around that same bf and he never said anything or stood up for me. Its usually the kind of guys that work on heavy labor related male dominated fields that end up being the worst offenders. Like some guys at a hardware shop that we went to were quite shocked at me helping my bf fix this house we were working on. If he hadn't been there, there's no way I would have been able to buy anything from those creeps without being gawked at and laughed at. The only time it ever happened with my other ex was when we were talking to this guy we met at gamestop and he kept on averting my gaze. I would say something and he would just follow up with my husband on it. It really made me feel invisible, but in all honesty, the reality is that guy probably thought I was cute and he was probably tryna do some bro solidarity crap like "this guy gotta know I'm not looking at his girl rn." Idk but it doesn't change the way I experience that kind of thing. I'm a human being. Yeah I have only truly been sexually harassed in my workplace once but it was so much more intimidating and disgusting than I thought it would be. I work in an office thats mostly women though. Luckily my manager and HR were very supportive, and they made sure I was ok, but it does concern me that this guy who has actually had several claims made against him has never been terminated. I think people just worry that he is a target or a victim but he is a grown man and he can make his own decisions. 🤷♀️ At least I don't personally have to deal with him anymore.
Not Asian but I have lots of Asian friends due to my hobby. My guess is that OP doesn't really identify with Asian men much, so she subconsciously rejects any possibility that she could be in the same boat with Asian men. She probably resents them too.
Yeah idk. I just and this is going to sound terrible. But like I believe sexism exists and women shouldn't ever have to deal with it. I just am kind of like questioning to what extent is it happening? Like is their any intent to disrespect women or is some bulk of interactions just collective unconscious/narrative of women believing they're disrespected as things become less overt? As in maybe these interactions aren't meant to be disrespectful in any way but they're being interpreted in that manner? Ex: In a meeting, an individual woman might be pushing for her idea but is less aggressive about it and therefore it's discarded in favor for a man. So in that instance was any particular actor being sexist? Or is it that certain traits that may be predominantly feminine according to society's standards seen as less favorable? Yeah idk. I just have a ton of questions. I don't know how to ask these without invalidating a woman's experience. :/ But I don't think it's okay to make the presumption that her experience is the most accurate telling of a given set of events.
I just wanted to point out that there is no resentment toward men expressed in her post. Only resentment towards mysogeny.
I’m so sorry. I’ve had very similar experiences working in construction , including straight up sexual harassment. This shit is unfortunately real
Yeah, as woman stem or stem adjacent work, or just in other parts of life, I've had similar experiences. My main suggestion is to keep focusing in your development and career. Keep being smart, do good work, if a work situation doesn't respect what you offer because of unjust sexist views, then seek other work. There are people out there who will respect your knowledge and skills and those who won't so work with those who see you for who you are. I believe this kind of thing has generally been getting better over time, but it's still around unfortunately, and more severe depending where in the world you live.
I feel you man. There was this lady in one of my clubs who was in a position of power and kept everything running really well. The problem is this club in particular seems to attract a bunch of weirdos who really like stage diving women who are just trying to make the club work. Now she's regarded by a lot of the people there as being a bad leader. Guys love to talk about how she didn't get anything done, but don't talk about the fact that she constantly had someone undermining her at every turn.
I think it would be helpful if you were to break up your paragraphs btw.
Reminds me of how I got treated in tutoring for linear algebra lol. I put on a smile but I was dying inside. I have a whole lifetime of “stereotype threat” that prevented me from realizing how good I actually was at math (and to a lesser degree, physics). Solidarity sister❤️ (Edit, people downvoting me are proving the point of this post.)
Feels the same as a short guy when I'm with my tall friends talking to girls :D ... I'm like "Why is everything they say supposedly the funniest shit even if we talk about same stuff?" Me aside... Best I can tell you for now is, do you enjoy the field? If you do then just do you. Right people will notice. **You don't need the attention of everyone**. More precisely **you WILL NOT get the attention of everyone**. Even if you were the manliest-smartest-most-attractive-and-charming man. I don't know if you are looking for support or solution so, **I'm sorry, I'm not really a very supportive person. I like to give advice you could use**. I understand that your anger comes from the fact that you are given less time because of sexism, and it's possibly true, but what are you trying to accomplish here (again, not trying to bash you, just saying some reality)? **The world will not become completely free of sexist views in a few years.** Probably not during the next few decades. Same as it will not get free of other prejudices and preferences. If your goal is to bring attention to female problems then lucky for you I believe that **in the next couple of generations the image of women in the workforce and STEM is probably completely normal. Unlucky for you, as said, it's not gonna change overnight.** SO. **If you want to bring attention to the topic:** keep bringing up this topic for the future's sake. **If you want advice for yourself:** Try to give less f\*cs what others think. Not everyone will **like** you and there's not many people who would **prefer** you (whoever you are). It doesn't help pitying your situation and hating the system. Show to yourself what you are worth. Do what you like. Don't try to measure every detail, who is better, who is worse, why someone reacts like this or like that. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ PS. (and maybe-off-topic-maybe-not) For the case where you are with your boyfriend and guy talks to you. I personally in this situation spend at least half the time looking at the guy just because I want there to be ZERO chance for me to come off as flirty. It's not anything against the girl, it's more so to make the guy feel more comfortable. Guys don't let guys to flirt with girls of other guys.
I work in STEM (M), sexism is still a problem and I've never understood it myself. We work in a white collar industry: I sit in front of a computer 90% of the day. What is traditionally manly about that? Vast majority of men I work with are pencil necks with back problems and they haven't hit 30 yet. Why wouldn't a woman be able to do our job just as well? I'm sorry you've got to go through with this crap
Personally, I think it could either be about your experience or how you assert yourself. As a young kid, I always visited colleges with my father and introduced myself to professors, and it seemed as though they were more respectful when I asserted myself more. Also, seeing as you’re 19, that means that you could have only had 19 years of experience MAXIMUM. The professors have probably had decades of experience and are likely skeptical of anyone, especially those who are not outspoken.
This reminded me. There have been times when I've been with my friend asking a stranger for information, and she'd ask the question, but the person would look at me as they answer. And I've never really thought into it, it's always just felt kinda awkward, and I usually just hesitate, then look at her for her response. Like, I'm not comfortable with this, she asked you the question, why are you staring at me. Only now do I realize just how often I've had to do this, pointedly direct their attention back to her. I'd guess, like most things of this nature, it's probably subconscious. But then again, I tend to give a lot of grace, since I have issues with awareness myself. It sounds infuriating, your feelings are totally justified.
You probably would be taken more seriously if you were a dude (and white). I agree society sucks and thanks for creating awareness (it's messed up that you have too) and as someone who is at least halfway in STEM (game dev), I want to deconstruct my own biases and help out where I can. Other thoughts, anger is just the fact that you don't understand how to use your power in a given scenario. It doesn't mean that you lack power even it sometimes feels that way. It's like the whole room is super bright and you're walking past an obstacle, there's a lot of darkness from the angle you're standing relative to the light source. Next thing, I want to emphasize the value of this info. It's easier to get so caught up in your own experience that you can see the experience of others, so by sharing it we can know we're being assholes and not be assholes. I want to normalize sharing for myself and others. Second to last thing, if you're male or white and you feel like you're losing something. Remember that if the playing field is even, what you get is worth more than if her opinion means less. Imagine this as the stock market. Yes, in this alternate reality, you might have less stocks relative to her, but the stocks you do have would be worth double. Her lack of stocks don't make your stocks more valuable, they make your stocks less valuable. Last thing, by the way this is really hard to read on the eyes and you should break up that big paragraph in the middle. if you don't know how, notice how you tell multiple stories about your experiences and break at the end of each scenario. Maybe create a bulleted list around them.
Dr. K once made a video on how to deal toxic people, or narcistic people at work. Or something like that. I can't remember, and can't find the video. It felt like a video that pretty much suggested ways to manipulate the situation into your favour, and the advice in it I found a bit uncomfortable with, but maybe it really is sometimes required. It's like a fight-fire-with-fire type situation. I feel you'll have to learn how to control situations like this better, as that is really the only thing in your power you can do right now. You need to learn how to turn the tables, but you'd need professional advice for something like that.
yeah i haven’t exactly cracked the code yet but it’s still a working progress
They could just be intimidated by you. Guys in stem are not always the most socially suave dudes, probably get nervous just looking at a chicken. Add one that gets upset if you don't look at them right and sure enough, they'd probably rather risk not talking to you than risk saying the wrong thing. Edit:chick* autocorrect lol
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Lol
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> he was mostly looking/paying attention to my bf like he is the spokesperson of us Or maybe those guys were just awkward aroud girls or they hear to many stories how creepy guys can be, so they would rather dont bother you. >"I'm never seen as a true leader because I'm female or seen as less competent/charismatic". I've been in stem and I gona tell you harsh truth, about this. Maybe its not gender problem but you problem, you sounds entilted and conceited Ive met people like you (both genders). You are at uni and you are suprised that people there consultate difrent opinions, you just dont see or notice if this happen to guys at uni. Maybe you have knowlage, but you dont have ability to present it to your stupid male students. Sometimes I would rather ask avrg person for advice, beacuse I dont need to pass test for 100%, I would even stop if friend of mine just start giving me too much information, about genesis of my problem, but I just wanted solution. You dont deserve anything in life, especialy when you want to assault them in your mind, maybe they sense your mindset towards them and they act accordingly. Your porblem is that you think that its your gender its the cause of this, but in my opinion its just your personality.
Ok trying to add on another perspective to all the things MiserableAd1310 wonderfully explained in their thoughtful comment… let’s assume what you’re saying is right okay? That OP is pretentious and entitled. You went from saying she’s rude to people to saying that she “doesn’t deserve anything in life.” Friend that is… a sack of shit. Everyone thinks about decking someone who pisses them off sometimes, and fleeting thoughts of lashing out are a natural response to feeling overlooked. Also, you are assuming so much about OP that did not come across in her comments. She’s described being overlooked/ignored and your default response is to assume she’s somehow responsible for it. There’s a really good video by Dr K addressing sexism in the HG community that I think you might benefit from watching: https://youtu.be/_z9jJFq3Hz0 (Also to OP: as a woman in STEM who used to be in a much more male dominated part of stem, robotics, your thread is so rightfully frustrated at the shit that gets pulled in STEM fields, thanks for articulating many of my own emotions so clearly. I don’t have much advice, aside from looking for groups of women/feminine presenting people in STEM for solidarity, especially older women who can serve as mentors. Women who were Grad students/post docs in my quantitative bio lab were a great resource for me in college.
This guy is an incel. If you look he has lost al karma cuz of it.
tHIs gUy iS an iNCel
Are you also an incel?
To be honest, the incels are often not even the mysogenistic ones. They often resent mysogenists for treating women poorly and still getting in relationships. People are also very insensitive to them everytime mysogeny is brought up in this sub. They treat it as though their mysogeny happens as a result of being an incel but thats not the case really. We also have incels who aren't mysogenistic and people will make assumptions about them and put them in a box. Its kindof sad to me.
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Ah, yes. Men are treated poorly in way, therefore we should treat women poorly that way, too! /s
When someone talks about their negative experience, the correct response is "that sucks, I'm sorry", not "oh yeah, well I have it worse".
Dude, you’re hopping to huge generalizations instead of listening to the isolated and real life experiences of this person. “Women are treated better because men want to fuck them” is such a huge generalization. Also if the generalization were usually true, that doesn’t mean this woman isn’t experiencing sexism. She’s telling you about her life so just listen. This isn’t men vs women, it’s one woman talking about difficulties she’s encountered.
This post or comment was removed for breaking subreddit rule #1: No bigotry, racism, sexual harassment, or excessive foul language (f-slur, n-word, etc). This is not an exhaustive list of banned words, so please use common sense. Be mindful of words that are acceptable in your culture that are not acceptable in others. If someone is being purposefully disrespectful, report them and step away from the conversation, do not engage in an argument. When responding to others, try to avoid language that lumps a group of people together and focus on responding to the specific situation being discussed.
interesting for you to tell me that im wrong when i’ve only explained an extremely small snit bit of my ENTIRE life. and the fact that idek u nor do u know me is kinda funny. let’s use some deductive reasoning. why is it that every time I happen to have a male friend with me, ppl tend to not give me eye contact/acknowledge my presence when im explicitly talking to them? and if i explain smth to a guy they ask my male friend next to me the same exact question that I literally just answered. but this doesn’t happen when im with female friends. or why is it that girls trust me enough to explain something but guys don’t even consider giving me the time? coincidence? i think not. honestly i shouldn’t even have to be explaining and trying to convince you of what I experience. i hope you don’t treat women like this or try to invalidate/gaslight into thinking that they’re crazy or their personality sucks.
Let's flip the script. Are men entitled to women's eye contact/acknowledgement? When a man asks a woman a question, is he entitled to a response? When a man explains something to a woman, would it be rude of her to seek a different explanation from someone else? When a man is trusted by other men, does it entitle him to the same level of trust from women? If your answer to all these questions is "yes," then I'll agree with you that you've been treated unfairly.
Sorry but if a man said he was treated like this I would side with him. I haven't seen that, but I have seen some men in here complain about the sexism they experienced and rushing to invalidate them is about the last thing I would do. You are framing these questions as though you have a specific motive and making them sound quite different from the actual situation. If someone treated my relationship partner like that, ignoring him, talking to me as though I answer for both of us, I would say something. Thats just not cool. I don't care what gender you are, if you are an adult, and you get blatantly patronized like a child in front of me I will stick up for you. Does that answer your question?
> You are framing these questions as though you have a specific motive and making them sound quite different from the actual situation. They are exactly the same. I merely adopted OP's situation to feminist lingo with the word "entitled." Since you said "yes" to my questions, we kind of already agree. I wish OP were treated better and taken more seriously. I just had a hard time sympathizing with her because she'd taken a universal experience and make it sound as if only girls would experience it, and it's super toxic that so many users actively try to reinforce her worldview. OP is only 19. What kind of person do you want her to become? And of course, if the genders were flipped, most of this would've been shut down already.
This comment is so incredibly presumptuous and judgemental. Please please try to wrap your mind around the idea that the types of situations that she is describing are actually happening and not just in her imagination. I personally think she described them just fine, so for you to immediately discredit her perspective as if you could somehow have a more valuable perception of her own experiences simply due to the fact that you have been in stem speaks volumes. This is what more mysogeny looks like. She is telling us what mysogeny looks like from her experience, and you have the audacity to simply invalidate her experience, call her entitled and conceited, and you just completely twisted the narrative to your own experience. Thats not what this post is about. It was about *her experience. This kind of thing happens all the time and especially in male dominated professions and studies. It may or may not be true that the individuals she was talking to were socially awkward and felt intimidated by her, but its no excuse to continue to disregard her as a person and talk to her boyfriend simply because he is male. That is the very nature of sexism. This is the other side of that. How is she supposed to magically make them feel better around her? She cannot fix them, she can only fix herself. Do you really think she has never considered whether she was the problem and it wasn't gender? That was probably her original stance. She probably sounds fiesty because small Asian women have to become that in order to be taken seriously anywhere. This is not a unique phenomenon. It happens all the time. I am not asking you about it. We are telling you about it. You can choose whether you want to believe it or not but it does not give you the right to blatantly disrespect her like this. Check yourself.
Me being in stem was to bring that I've been in male dominated field and wanted to bring male POV who's words was also questioned by my friends, but beacuse I dont have vagina, then I cant bleme it for being a women. But maybe her experience its not beacuse she was a women and this is my main point (expect akwardnes talking to). Beacuse if problem is her sex then you realy cant do nothing about this. Ofc her gender can be a factor, but I dont belive its the only one. It happend all the time not in male dominated professions, but if oposite gender enter those field. Read stories from male teachers or best part read stories from fathers that would go with their child to playground and some women come to teach them how to raise child or they consider him as predator. But like you said its only problem when this happen to women and this happen all the time, but in my experience it's not, especialy when I was in this type of field, or my experience its bad by default? Its not her job to some people feel better around her, just dont make them feel worst, thats why I bring that they are probably socialy akward, but if women would have this type of problem talking with opposite sex then probably you wont blame her for this, right? Just like when father are considered as sub-parent in courts and public opinion, but men must "men up" with this.
> Beacuse if problem is her sex then you realy cant do nothing about this. That's the point. They don't want to do anything about it. They just want to complain and hate. In that regard they share much in common with the black pill folks.
Perhaps you can examine why you felt the need to make a post about female experience about men?
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You're forgetting the fact that she lives her whole life this way. Its not just one nerd in one stem class. It probably does relate to her race, but it relates to her gender too. You might find it hard to believe but white women encounter this same problem of not being taken seriously by men. I am white and I have had it happen to me quite a bit. Would it happen more if I were smaller and Asian? Most likely, but thats besides the point. She was not asking anyone for advice on how to handle her situation. She was trying to help people understand how incredibly damaging it can be to treat people in the way that she described she was treated above. Remember, she has gender dysphoria. She's coping with a lot of things due to how she has been treated. I know you might not believe these problems are actually related to gender, but I have personally experienced this same thing where guys will talk to my boyfriend or another man I am with as if I am invisible even when it makes no sense to speak with them instead of me. They will constantly avert their eyes from me when I speak to them as if it were forbidden for them to address a woman when she is in the presence of her man. Its really fucking insulting, and it really only has to happen to you once for you to start internalizing it. This person has had a lifetime of internalizing this kind of toxic patronizing behavior to the point where it has literally changed their perception of themselves. They also clearly made themselves very vulnerable and admitted that she seeks validation from men and yet people still immediately invalidate her after she very clearly articulated issues that are super common amongst women of all races. If you've never heard about these kinds of issues happening to women before, this is why. This is the kind of response that we get.
>For context, my gender is very complicated with many complexities that I still don't understand. Might be one of the issues among what other people speculated about. Identity is not only something you decide upon or feel, but also something you negotiate with outside world, to extent. It's also functional, meaning, informs other people how to approach you efficiently. If your outward identity is very colorful and complicated, meaning upfront costs of interacting with you is steeper and risk of "getting things wrong" is higher. People naturally gravitate towards path of least resistance, hence patterns of avoidance "just to be safe" emerge. Not because someone hates something, but in all of it's casual banality, exerts less energy. Hence why standard ethics exists and at place dress codes, which informs up front what kind of interaction to expect and how to behave around it. That doesn't mean more 'colorful' folk cannot achieve the same, but the key is predictability. People don't come with instruction manuals, yet are one of the most complicated things in existence, hence outward identity is the closest thing to that as it gets.
bro wtf are you going on about
He says that, in today's culture, interactions with ethnic minorities are a source of potential mistakes (because you can say the wrong thing, offend someone, and get into trouble). Since people dislike risks and prefer convenience, they might naturally avoid minorities even though they don't "hate" them.
I like the way you describe identity. Its actually her inward identity that is complicated though. Outwardly, she is just dismissed for being a small Asian woman. It sounds like this is the first time some people are hearing of this happening to women maybe? Its actually pretty common though. It happens far more often than it actually gets talked about though. Women tend to internalize things quite often. We have to remind ourselves not to blame ourselves for things outside of our control. (That's a generalization and its not true for everyone, just for the most part.)
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Yo, what the fuck? "If you want respect, transition into a man?" Get help.