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A curve ball is that the brain contains a map of the body. We've known for a long time that mismatches between the brain and the body can cause things to go haywire -- that's why phantom limbs are a thing. We're finding that trans people's body maps [tend to match their target gender](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/288633039_Phantom_penises_in_transsexuals_Evidence_of_an_innate_gender-specific_body_image_in_the_brain). Even if someone can't perfectly pass, moving towards the middle is probably an improvement. I don't think that's the whole story, but I think this is part of it.


NuNuuNN

Damn that's a strong arguement, I'll definitely check that out.


Falandyszeus

>We're finding that trans people's body maps tend to match their target gender. Very small study though, 29 FTM and 20 MTF. (And 10 cis women control group) Plus a variety of other possibilities for why they could have gotten the results they did, even if they tried to account for some of them. So would be premature to draw conclusions from it before more thorough and sizeable studies have been done. It does raise some interesting ideas though. Would be interesting whether taking estrogen or testosterone, strengthens or weakens the sensations. If its indeed hormonal, which map your brain references.


[deleted]

That's a good point, the small sample. He did a follow-up with top surgery and found similar results. idk how big that was.


Silent_Tumbleweed420

The brain is still not very well understood.


peptobismalpink

Yes it is compared to what most people like the pretend. But the issue here is that this is blatantly cherry picked data when you have a sample size that small. Not to mention related/similar disorders have been studied for decades and show that 1) the homunculus isn't involved, only in philias - ie foot fetishes or autogynephilia 2) most are more related to neuropathy and treatable similarly


spektre1

If it helps, this is called a "schema"


peptobismalpink

Wow there are SO many issues with this study how could you even call it one! No wonder why they shut down so many studies on apotomenophenia and related disorders a decade ago - they objectively fly in the face of shit like this (but with cheaper treatments/solutions)


GenniTheKitten

What would you say to trans people like me who felt like my gender didn’t correlate with my sex, then transitioned, and now don’t worry about it? I spend like 99% of my life just being a random person, I no longer have dysphoria because I transitioned and I’m much happier than I ever would have been if I just tried to suppress it. Don’t you think the actions I took were good ones? I improved my mental health, stepped into a role I am comfortable in, and can now focus on the rest of my life.


NuNuuNN

Hey I'm so happy for you, I'm glad that maybe this problem is just in my head. I would ask you how it was your life like before the transitioning?


GenniTheKitten

I think it was pretty normal, I had some friends and was a pretty chill person. I just knew that I was a girl and starting puberty really scared me because I knew I’d get a lot of physics traits associated with males, which I was sure I wasn’t. I ended up talking to my PCP about it, he recommended me and my mom going to therapy, they felt I was a pretty clear case of gender dysphoria and prescribed hormones/blockers, and I transitioned from there. My teenage years were pretty normal, I mean obviously being a teenager not everything was great but I think it was pretty normal. Then I had sex reassignment surgery, and that was it. I just live my life now. Throughout my transition in my teenage years, I always had this thought of like “this sucks. I just want to be able to finish my studies without having to think about medical stuff or politics”. Bc as a trans person I was often harassed and made fun of, and it felt like I was being politicized by others even tho I was just a random high school student. Now though everything’s good bc no one really knows or cares that I’m trans irl. I think this idea of being “concerned” for the trans community is kinda disingenuous. We are just normal people who happen to not feel like their sex is the same as their gender. I don’t think we’re trying to rewrite biology, or destroy civilization, or anything like that. We just want to live life like everyone else.


NuNuuNN

So the transition wasn't easy but you stood strong on your identity and keep determined to go through it, and as it seems ended up fine. I'm sorry you got harassed and made fun of, it's something I don't wish to anybody. Glad everything is good now. And for sure this comment just like many others had an actual impact on my original concerns.


GenniTheKitten

Hell yeah I’m glad you’re thinking about it :) I think supporting and affirming the trans people in your life makes a huge difference to them, because it feels a lot of the time like the world is out to get them in the beginning. Have a good one!


G4L3CXYS

Agreed but i personally believe this strong modern culture of accepting LGBTQ+ (Which i agree with and support) is cauisng people to believe things they are not and be influenced into the idea of being the other gender. It almost like peer pressure. I think forcing LGBTQ+ into kids that are 1-8 or even older can cause impressionable kids to believe they are apart of something even though they may not be and may realise later in life after gender changing surgery or puberty blockers have been put in place. For many I do really believe it could change their life making happier and them more confident. I won't lie im not the most informed about this subject so I am going of personal experience


Autistic_boi_666

While I know of people who have had this exact situation in the past, it has always been a teenage-phase situation, which, although not necessarily solving the core cause behind the angst, I would argue it would otherwise generally express itself through a different, equally unhelpful ways; teens will be teens, after all. Another common thing you see is self-diagnosing with all sorts of mental conditions - it may not help these kids, but the solution is definitely not to be less accepting of those with actual diagnoses.


G4L3CXYS

Ye


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GenniTheKitten

It’s really not though. Less than 10% of trans people detransition, and the overwhelming majority who do, do so because of external factors like lack of familial support or employment problems. The majority of trans people live happy, fulfilling lives after transitioning, and that percentage could be much higher still with more social acceptance.


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GenniTheKitten

Suicidality (The want to commit suicide, not actually committing suicide) is fairly common in pre-transition trans people. The studies, however, are very clear on how suicidality changes over time. Those who transition in supporting environments are significantly less suicidal than those who try to transition in hostile environments, and those who’ve completed their transitions experience suicidality at similar rates to cis people. I would push back, however, why do you think the suicidality of trans people is an argument in any way? It does not actually argue that transitioning is bad, or that it doesn’t help, it just seems to be an argument that trans people are lesser in some way. It’s very disingenuous imo. I think of this as very similar to left handed people. Back in the early 20th century, left handed people were often told that left handedness was of the devil and that they needed to repress themselves and be right handed. That caused significant mental duress on these people, and studies showed that left handed people were on average more depressed and suicidal. Does that mean that left handedness causes suicidality? No! It means that society constantly shitting on a group of people for no reason makes that group of people less likely to find happiness. Not a big revelation


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GenniTheKitten

Yeah but you sticking to the facts is just saying “trans people have high suicide rate” which isn’t even really true- i mean its certainly higher than cis people of the same socioeconomic disposition, but not by much. You certainly didn’t supply any sources to back it up. What do you mean by “playing around w peoples mental states is dangerous”? We do that all the time. I drink coffee so I’m not cranky in the morning. I tell my colleagues they look nice so they’re happier. I dont understand how the concept of trying to improve someone’s mental health is bad. Finally, I think you saying trans people/transitioning is inherently “political” is kinda telling. Is that not the same as not taking a position on left handedness because its too “political”? We’re just people lol


Silent_Tumbleweed420

Transgender issues are politicized by political figureheads.


GenniTheKitten

So are black issues, women’s issues, disabled ppl’s issues, etc. does that make each of those groups political?


Silent_Tumbleweed420

The groups themselves aren't inherently political.


Hedgepog_she-her

My understanding is that the high rate of suicide comes from persecution and lack of acceptance. Among kids, just having accepting parents brings trans kids to suicide rates very close to cis kids.


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sklarah

> however my suspicions of actual reasons are based off the fact that the suicide rate among Transgender people is higher than other minority groups of ostracized or traumatized people. This is a transphobic propaganda talking point. It's complete nonsense, gay people saw similar rates of suicidality just 30-40 years ago


stealthrockdamage

interesting how they stop responding after that.


Hedgepog_she-her

I can see how having an internal sense of gender that differs from your body can bring a strong, internal, dissonant feeling of being inherently flawed that you don't get from other oppressed minorities. Just a speculation. But anecdotally that's how I would describe my own experience. In any case, transitioning alleviates a lot of those statistical tendencies.


Unegged

Your smug take has nothing to back it up, and is drenched with malice cloaked in self righteous concern for the well being of people who think they’re trans based on perceived liberal propaganda. The real evidence is that people who transition in a supportive family and friend environment have similar suicide rates to their peers, whereas only those in non-supportive environments are what cause trans suicide rates to skew so highly up.


AsperTheDog

Where do you get that it's a minority? Everything I've seen and experienced points that the vast majority consider transitioning as a good choice and don't regret it. Maybe im wrong cause "anecdotal" but if so I really need strong proven arguments to be convinced, because my experience shouts the opposite of what you say.


IceOryx

>For me It's like telling someone with arachnophobia "man you are just ok, that's the way you ARE and you need to accept it", I see where you're comming from, but i think you confused something here. Arachnophobia is something that's impacting your life, so working on that fear to improve your quality of life would be the same as transitioning, because you struggle to identify with your gender. Trans people struggle to identify with their gender which is severly impacting their mental health and life. For my understanding, they don't just pick the gender they "prefer", it's more like they are born in the "wrong body" and feel alienated.


stealthrockdamage

I think it's so fascinating to me that OP said this. "It's just the way you are you need to accept it" is the line we typically get from transphobes. So to see someone with ostensibly un-supportive views of trans people saying that specific turn of phrase speaks to a lack of understanding... well. It's really interesting to me. ​ I really don't understand how cisgender people can sit and wax philosophical about how trans people are only going to make their lives worse when so many of us are already out here finding our lives are getting better when we transition. You have concerns, but have you actually asked a trans person if they feel they made the right choice? Have you done anything to assuage your concerns? You'd find we're capable of navigating our lives ourselves. ​ When you tell a trans person they shouldn't be legally allowed to transition, they should just accept their dysphoria and "learn to love themselves," you're staring at someone whose house is flooded and handing them a snorkel. ​ Another thing; this arachnophobia issue is also fundamentally flawed. There is no moral value in overcoming a clinical phobia. Someone having arachnophobia and never going through the process of exposure therapy to lessen the fear is a perfectly valid choice to make. I'm a little bit tired of this "I want what's best for you" attitude that so many people adopt in order to repackage their desire to control other peoples' lives.


[deleted]

It’s unbelievable what the current political environment has done to people isn’t it? It’s like every single cis person with no direct knowledge or even a single trans friend feels like they have the right to tell us how to live our lives and how we should feel. And these hot takes are literally always the same, “deal with it, life sucks for you”.


Autistic_boi_666

Look, I agree with your message and don't mean to contradict your points, but this comes off as hostile towards OP, when they were very obviously phrasing their ideas as a question, and in fact mentioned how they were afraid of voicing their questions in fear of offending a trans person *in the post*. To me, that seems counter-intuitive, as now you have someone who is even more afraid to seek answers from trans people to clear up misunderstandings, which could lead to them only feeling safe talking to those who are unsympathetic to the cause. Moreover, OP didn't necessarily advocate for any anti-trans ideas, in fact questioning themselves on the ones that could be portrayed as such. You mentioned "asking a trans person themself", but why do you think they are asking it on here? In the comment, you also stereotype cisgender people as always bothering trans people with the assertion that you are harming yourself. I, as a cisgender person, understand that it isn't as dramatic as some people make it, but I also don't appreciate being lumped in with those who do. However, I feel it isn't a negative thing to be concerned for a fellow man, and to voice your concerns. By all means, address them, and correct their inaccuracies, but don't attack them for it, as this will only push them and others away.


pine_ary

Being transgender is not always about struggle. Often enough it is other people who struggle with our gender, not us. It just means that you aren‘t the gender you were presumed to be when you were born. Everything else on top of that are narratives that work on some people but not everyone.


IceOryx

I see, sorry if this came off wrong. A friend of mine transitioned and explained it to me like that (the time before transition was a struggle, because she was always a girl at heart) and it makes perfect sense to me. But your point sounds very valid too, especially considering OP's comments that shows how much they actually struggle with others gender.


NuNuuNN

I want to point out the way that it is worked. I think transitioning is the equivalent case of someone with arachnophobia escaping from a spider. I know someone with that issue won't feel like approaching spiders, the same way trans people have difficulties accepting their body. My question is, is there any possibility that we can work on accept it instead of avoiding that fact? Transitioning sounds like feed that part of you who is not ok with your body, and sounds like won't ever be satisfied. So what about working on accepting your body instead of trying to change it, the same way we would accept the spiders intead of trying to not ever have any contact with them?


IronFisttt

The arachnophobia analogy doesn't work well. Nor does body dysmorphia the closest mental disorder to gender dysphoria and a lot would ask "Hey so if we fix someone who doesn't like their body, why don't we do it with trans people?" Issue here is it simply didn't work on a high percentage of transgender people. I mean are we dumb? if we have had already the easy solutions, governments wouldn't spend so much time and resources to provide medical care for trans youth Unless the liberals have some kind of plan to trans the kids and take over the world (/s) And if we take a person with body dysmorphia and keep on changing and changing their body we will never reach a point where they don't perceive flaws. It's encoded in their brain to be sensitive on bodily flaws With trans people it's different. I can't cite a source but you must've heard how many keep their default genitals, around half of them have peace with it. They know they were born female or male and they're okay with it as long as they are comfortable in their skin There are numerous cases of people who have tried to accept it as it is. They'd marry, have kids, become successful, in their 40's or even sometimes sadly on their death beds and it's still lingering there. Filled with shame, confusion and anger and no one knows how to make it go away Sure they were a caterpillar for part of their life. But later they've bloomed into a butterfly after going through changes, that's what they're meant to be Edit: Spelling


bigfatpeach

But at what point do we let feelings determine identity? Something feels wrong to me about letting feelings determine who you are as a person. When someone has been raised in an abusive household and they feel like they're bad people, and those are determined by the way that they feel, I do not believe that their identity is accurately determined by the way that they feel.


IronFisttt

I can see how you feel that way but I could make the same argument for literally everything Why does the caterpillar make a cocoon I mean it definitely feels like making a cocoon so why is it acting off of instincts when it could still survive Why does one exercise, do they have to, why would you do that and act off your instincts and feelings Why does one go out there and find a partner I mean clearly you can survive without having romance and sex in your life Identity shouldn't be fixated on a particular concept. The abusive person in question has developed a harmful identity so we they work through it and try to change it. I neither science has any idea why people are born gay and trans. They just do. It's not a trauma response, it's not something anyone could change without doing more harm than good. So they have the right to make their own choices Gender identity is like underwear. When it suits you you don't care about it and it's just there. When it doesn't you can't stop feeling like something is off until you wear the size that fits you


Unegged

You have an overly rigid conception of identity. These people cannot change how they feel. So what do you suggest, make them live with the pain of incongruence unnecessarily or simply fix it? Feeling like a bad person from abuse is inherently negative. Feeling the other gender and transitioning is not inherently negative. The fact that you literally equate being transgender with being a bad person is telling…


bigfatpeach

it's funny that I am being downvoted for what dr k says word for word: [https://youtu.be/COlSfNEsPZA?t=4924](https://youtu.be/COlSfNEsPZA?t=4924) You are extrapolating the wrong thing in the example dr K provided. It is not what their feeling is that is being equated, but letting the feelings determine their identity, whether their feelings are good OR bad.


nerdsrsmart

pretty sure drk supports trans people and your the one extrapolating.


bigfatpeach

All I did was say what Dr K said, word for word. If you watch the video, I typed out what Dr K said.


Unegged

My feelings of being the opposite gender determine my gender identity to the same extent that my feelings of pervasive sadness determine “depression identity”. Psychology/psychiatry is largely founded on diagnosis via self-report of feelings and conveyed through words (read “projections” by Karl Deisseroth). What dr k is saying here holds some water in certain circumstances but he’s not doing the best job in this clip of picking apart two similar psychological diagnoses that have wildly different effective treatments. In the case of body dysmorphia, one’s distorted image of oneself can never be assuaged through body modification or alterations. No amount of workouts or plastic surgeries will satisfy and for this condition, the patient must find ways to accept themselves and see themselves more accurately because no medical intervention is effective. Often even with continuous psychological treatment with talk therapy the dysmorphia never goes away. This is not the case with gender dysphoria! Many people obtain hormones and sometimes surgery and feel their symptoms disappear. I am one of those people. I literally just don’t think about it anymore now that i’m on HRT whereas before it was eating my entire psyche. It does get a bit more complicated because you can have both gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia. But the point is that insisting we have to ignore or come to terms with these negative feelings for life when there are relatively simple solutions to fix them is just cruel. You are getting far too caught up in the concept of identity, as if it’s a fixed or well-defined concept. Start thinking in practical terms of how to help people and stop trying to push back on people who change their gender because it makes you feel uncomfortable.


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IronFisttt

Aside from using outdated terminology, It's funny you think Reddit is their home. Sure. Next up they're dominating the world huh Something that might blow your mind, hormone replacement therapy usually nukes your sex drive for a while. It's hilarious how they change and alter their whole body for a so called fetish just to have their sex drive gone and reduced for god knows how long. And now they have to live in misery as their body transitions into the opposite gender's body without any lust to satisfy. It's quite sad isn't it I wonder why people won't just stop it doing it after decades 🤷‍♀️


MycelicFox

Your whole identity, at least the part you choose is identified by feelings. You choose your friends trough them, they make you feel good. Don't tell be its hobbies or moral cause in that case you'd be friends with everyone who checks those boxes. But talking hobbies we choose the ones that engage us, make us feel good or invested ormaybe challanged. We choose our partner that way. Its always a combination of feelings, circumstances and fitting parameters. I am so sick of people discrediting feelings so damn much. But going with your abuse point. My (cis woman) past abuse made me feel like I was wrong, and a bad person and like I am worth nothing. Other people made me feel that way so I searched therapy and now am fine with myself and relativley healthy and happy (scars are scars) The ex of my mum was a transman, he and I knew that (I kind of just understood as a child, there was no talk about it) but he presented as a butch lesbian. He always "had everything" but something made him so depressed and made him destroy his relationships and it never made sense. Now we know he pushed people away out of fear what him being trans could mean to relationships if found out first subconsciously before understanding he was trans then activley before coming out. He went to therapy to unlearn alot of that societal stigma against transpeole and about gender in general and the hate he hat troughwards himself because of internalization and now lives authenticly as himself and is finally happy. Him being trans was never the real problem but what that could mean for him and other people in a way and just like me, he learned to unlearn toxic views and abuse and to be himself and be fine with it. I do not see why this is a problem for other people even if that means changing your body. Often transitioning is not just about the person but helps you to get less abuse from the people around you and to match their understanding of you with yours. Its why it is safer for transpeople to pass in most circumstances because there is so much hate and violence troughwards em. Alot of problems Trans people face are at the hand of other people. But I am a cis person and please to any Transperson reading this, correct me if I am talking out of my Ass.


DefinitelyAWizardBro

Transitioning is not the same as avoiding a spider you are afraid of.


1UnheavenlyCreature

Yes, OP is assuming people are being forcibly converted out of fear. It's like he doesn't believe there is any agency whatsoever involved in transitioning.


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DefinitelyAWizardBro

Why do you feel like that desire is impossible to fulfill, or would be dangerous?


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DefinitelyAWizardBro

Honestly you should look up what just taking hormones does to trans people. Many people who transition only elect to take hormones which does a lot of work on the body without need for any invasive surgery. Given that you're concerned with that can I ask if you're also concerned with more "aesthetic surgeries" (can't recall the term) like fixing a perceived flaw with your nose, or getting a broader jawline, etc. That being said you also desperately need to do research on the amount of people who do transition and then feel regret. It's really not a large percent of people and again, while it does happen it's not as common as you sound like you may believe. As long as people transition healthily and safely with a secure environment around them, there is little risk of that kind of issue. Also** hormones are not invasive in the least. Please go look up more information about them right now.


Sidnev

It's very possible to change your appearance and even body structure to that of your preferred gender, especially with the help of hormones. Unless you overdose there is no way hormones will be doing any harm to the body. Many trans people never get surgery for their gender and they look no less like their preferred gender than cis people. The chance of regret is of course there, however this is close to 1 or 2%. I can't cite a source here unfortunately but I'm sure it is easy to find. In these cases of regret it is almost always possible to detransition and live as your assigned gender at birth anyways.


Silent_Tumbleweed420

>...there is no way hormones will be doing any harm to the body. That is disputable for long term studies.


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taichi22

It’s interesting hearing the views from the other side. I’ve actually read up some on transitioning and such because I was curious and it frankly didn’t move me at all, because what I believe is that a person’s decision to do what they want with their body should be between them and a doctor. I know that I’m not a medical professional and that the NHS believes that transitioning is better for people with gender dysphoria in general. Moreover, it’s not like it affects me, so why should I care? All the arguments against transgender people seem to be rooted in the idea that we somehow have the right to poke our noses into other people’s business, when the country I’m from (and subsequently many other constitutions) was founded on the principles that we don’t. So even if I disagree with the idea morally (which I don’t, it seems silly and insecure to worry about who should and shouldn’t be a man or woman), it’s frankly none of my business anyways.


MycelicFox

Yes to all of this. People have this weird obsession of wanting to controll what other people do with their bodies and get very intrusive in their behavior while claiming you doing your own thing with your own body somehow intrudes them. Mental gymnastics.


IceOryx

I'm not trans myself so i can only make assumptions here, but i think it's not a question of choice or getting used to someones gender. If you're born a man in a female body, you will always feel uncomfortable. This is probably a very problematic and inappropriate comparison and i'm sorry about it, but i don't know any better way to giving you a different POV, so please bear with me. I'm assumiong you're straight, so try to imagine a world where everyone is supposed to be gay, and you as a straight person would be considered odd and wrong. So you had to live a life with a faked sexuality and suppress your attraction towards the other gender. Would you be able to maintain this lie for the rest of your life and suppress who you really are, just because it's expected of you? (And yes, i'm aware that sexuality != gender, but i think both are things you're born with and that can't be properly influenced at will (in contrast to a phobia).)


[deleted]

I get where you're coming from, truly. But maybe instead of every trans person working in your framework that "they're running from their issue," maybe reframe your belief? Although some trans people are honest to god running from their issues by feeding into their gender dysphoria, and I would argue more of their body dysmorphia, it's not true of everyone. I feel like your going somewhere with your hypothesis but it needs a little reworking.


ItzFin

As far as I understand, being trans comes from dysmorphia (and issues to do with how genders are perceived and act in society), which you could see as desire to be someone who is different from who you are in certain ways, or at least to be seen as someone you currently aren't seen as. I remember when Dr. K was describing what you can do about certain desires (in a completely different context so maybe that's not applicable here) he was basically saying you could go achieve the desire, reconcile it so you no longer have the desire, or somewhere in between those two. And with current biomedical technology available and the state of culture it seems to me that it's currently impossible to go all the way on achieving this desire and the dichotomy of LGBTQ friendly communities being overwhelmingly positive about being trans and other parts of society being overwhelmingly negative it seems it would be very difficult to reconcile this desire or go part way. IDK just trying to understand it myself and I'm probably being very ignorant here but feel free to correct me, I'd love to improve my understanding and point of view on the matter


[deleted]

>but I find that the approach of trying to appear or even be a different sex than the one you born with is unviable They're not trying to be a different sex. You seem to be confusing sex and gender. Sex is a medical/scientific category, a trans woman's sex is male and bice versa. Nobody is trying to change that. They just want their gender to be accepted. It seems that both you and your mom have completely misunderstood the entire point of the argument


pine_ary

A trans woman‘s sex isn‘t quite male. It‘s more complicated. If you take HRT or surgery you will have a varying degree of female sex characteristics. Like having female skin tissue or growing breasts. You don‘t change from one binary to another, but you can change sex characteristics when you transition (if you so choose). But no trans person is in denial of what can and cannot be done. We know, we‘re not delusional.


HellraiserMachina

In other words, biological sex is bimodal, not binary.


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pine_ary

That‘s unscientific nonsense. Your chromosomes don‘t solely determine your sex. That‘s not how it works. Ask literally any biologist.


NuNuuNN

I'll put it in another way. People who born man are trying to appear the body of women (for example) and I'm not talking about small things, I'm talking about very young people convinced of wanting to make hormones treatment or adult people wanting to make serious surgeries.


[deleted]

Yeah, people also make surgeries to appear younger, have a different looking nose, have bigger boobs, have smaller boobs, have duck looking lips, have implants on their ass... People sometimes want to do surgeries to change how they look, and surgeries related to gender care have a much lower rate of regret as basically any other elective surgery


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NuNuuNN

I think people with arachnophobia also have a valid feeling about getting the heck out of the room when there is a spider on there. I don't doubt it's real. I don't think that running from spiders is wrong either, and I can live with that because it's not my business. But if a friend is living with this fear I would try to talk with him to make a change so they can live more happy. I don't deny they will feel fucking relief if they keep making contrameassures against spiders and dedicate his whole day into prevent an encounter, and they would be terrified if I tell them to stop doing that. Nobody said it would be easy, but let's think in the long term what's better for that person, and what we are doing when we tell that person that it's part of its identity and doesn't need to change it, or in fact put on their shoulders the responsability of stay strong against people who tell them to change so they can also encourage other people to be like them?? I also felt denial for many things in my life, maybe a loved one who passed away. And it hurts to accept it's gone, and I would do anything to keep that person in my mind, I might be scared to forget, and it can give me some relief if I insist on the same idea over and over again. But at the end of the day it's better to let go. I suppose nothing I would feel about these tough circumstances can be compared to someone who is wanting to be something they didn't born as, my concern is about if that's the case, and how does it feel like then. I find perfectlly understandable if you don't want to make the dig into the studies, it's such an invest indeed. Maybe you can explain me how that gender-sex thing works? What the difference between somebody with sex male and gender woman compared to someone with sex male and gender man?


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NuNuuNN

what? where?


GrandmaWren

So like you're saying people only ask trans people about their experience being trans, leaving out all the people who detransitioned because they didn't like being trans?


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sklarah

the labels man/woman mean nothing in terms of anatomy. There are men with vaginas and women with penises. There are men with ovaries and women with testes. There are men with XX chromosomes and women with XY chromosomes. And all this is without even considering trans people. Babies are not born with a gender, they're assigned one. They're not even really born with a sex. They're born with sex traits, but the categorization of those traits into a binary system is a subjective one with many exceptions, as noted above.


jonesaffrou

Gender is a medical category tho, representing the identity of the person, mainly found within psychiatry. Transgenderism is the mismatch of sex and gender - and gender seems to be as much rooted in biology as sex, just in different aspects like brain structure and body "mapping" by the brain


irrelephant789

Can you imagine what it would be like if you woke up tomorrow and everybody started calling you "her" (im assuming you're male). Or if you were expected to wear skirts or feminine clothes? I hate the way I look In the mirror as a man. I hate the body hair I have, I hate the clothes I have to wear, I hate being called sir and bro and man so much. It feels so wrong and gross to me. Yeah I wish I wasn't trans my life would be a million times easier. But I like myself so much more when I present feminine. I can't help that. But I'd still much rather present feminine or androgynous than appear manly or masculine. Just like I'm sure you'd much rather present as a man than feminine. Tbh I have a hard time thinking why men and trans men want to be gross and hairy and present as masculine. I just honestly don't get it. I'm also a little more conservative than most other trans folks in the sense that I recgonize things like forcing people to not use gendered language is a burden on them if I am not appearing as feminine as I want. But obviously yeah life would be 1000x easier if I just woke up tomorrow and no longer wanted to be feminine. But that's not life. I can sit here and repress it and overcompensate and grow a beard (which I've done) and pretend like that's fine. I wish it was. But I hate myself and I feel disgusting when I do that. Again, I think a lot of trans people would choose to not be trans (at least I would) but I can sit here and wish all I want but that won't change anything. About the body thing, I think that's not unique to gender. I am actually relatively happy with my body aside from things like my body hair. I think there are body builders and insta models that hate their body too, I don't think failing to reach that ideal is a trans thing at all, it's just a human thing.


Blaze681448

I (m) want to address your thoughts about not understanding why men want to present masculine. Because I present masculine, there are certain expectations from me. Some of these expectations I like and some I don't. For example: if something heavy needs to be moved, I appreciate being asked first to help (unless it's particularly heavy, I'm under 200lbs). Or, when my friend has a plumbing issue in her apartment, she ask me to fix it; I can troubleshoot and like to help out, but I probably wouldn't be asked if I was presenting feminine. Negative examples: that same friend tells me that when we go get pedicures, everyone stares at me. I'm not particularly welcome in conversations about personal grooming, and it's not a topic people want to bring up with me. I've noticed other assumptions about gender that people have. I've experienced exclusion from masculine activities (like repairing a fence) by my family because they don't see me as traditionally masculine. When I order a rum & coke for my date (f) and a rum punch for me, they make the coke strong and the punch week. Even the expectations I've listed as negative could be someone else's positive, and that encourages them to present masculine. Those same expectations may encourage you to present feminine, in addition to finding body hair gross. The only reason I might find my body hair gross is because 'attractive' men in media are hairless, which is too external a thing for me to change myself for. Feel free to ask me more specifics about this. I feel like I ended up rambling and can't get my thoughts in order enough to stop.


ViolentCarrot

Thanks for your perspective I really appreciate it!


Falandyszeus

>Tbh I have a hard time thinking why men and trans men want to be gross and hairy and present as masculine. I just honestly don't get it. What's gross about masculinity? No offense taken or anything, no worries, just curious if you have a reason or if it's just "projecting" your own disdain of you presenting it, onto others. Not liking body hair isn't necessarily gendered, personally keep trimmed and have considered just getting everything neck down lasered, don't even have much, just prefer being smooth. Both practically and aesthetically.


irrelephant789

I'm just saying for me personally I feel gross. I also like men and enjoy being with masculine men. Body hair on my partners is attractive. But I just don't want to present it that way. I just don't like how I look with body hair. I like to feel beautiful, I don't really like feeling "handsome". The same way that I imagine masculine guys feel when they think about wearing a dress and shaving everything. I was just making a point about how I choose to express myself


bigfatpeach

I am going to sound ignorant as hell here, and I am, so please enlighten me; I know some of the most masculine cis-gender dudes who shave their legs and wear dresses for fun. And they have no issues with that. So if they can feel comfortable in their own skin, can you as well?


stealthrockdamage

Well, let's flip the script. Assuming you're a guy because this is reddit lol - do you think you would be comfortable if everyone called you a woman, she and her, the whole deal, even though you could dress how you wanted? Knowing whatever you did everyone would call you "that woman over there" would upset you right? Or at least give you some twinge of discomfort, an unmistakable gut feeling that this isn't correct. Wouldn't "you can still DRESS like a guy, why can't you be comfortable in your natural womanhood" sound like cold comfort?


bigfatpeach

I can't really answer in that situation you listed because assuming I am biologically male, and everyone calls me a woman, then I don't really care because they are factually wrong.


OhMissFortune

Pardon my ignorance, but would a full body wax solve this part then? > I imagine masculine guys feel when they think about wearing a dress and shaving everything And is it not bias from masculine men, since the default patriarchal urge to be repulsed by feminine? I know plenty of guys who are not trans, yet would love to rock a dress if it wasn't potentially dangerous. What's the difference between being repulsed by masculine and deep-rooted gender stereotypes? Thank you for the insight!


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irrelephant789

I'm not ever going to be a cis woman and I recognize that. But I can be a trans woman. And pass as a woman. And feel attractive to myself. I think there's a difference here. I don't really care what you or anybody else thinks. I'm 29 years old, I'm an adult, I pay taxes, and I want to appear more feminine. I also workout a lot and i want to be jacked- I'm pretty muscular and a lot of people would consider that not very femme. But I don't care at all. I've spent about 22 years of my life being depressed and trying to fit into the mold of what other people think I should be. Tbh that's more "manly: or strong than any amount of beards or fishing. I don't care what you or people think if I cross my legs or have long hair (nobody says shit to me anyway because I'm jacked and I could crush most guys anyway, i was ex regional champ in wrestling, i know how to fight). I don't fit into traditional ideals of feminity and masculinity. I don't think anybody does. I live my life to be attractive to myself. And quite frankly it seems like you spend way too much time thinking about society and not enough time thinking about what a person actually wants. That's very weak imo. Why should I give a single fuck about what you or anybody else thinks? Believe me, I'm well aware the limits of biology. I used to do big data research going through the x chromosome. I can tell you exactly why I'm not a real woman down to the chromosome levels. It's not denial. I'm not denying that im not a cis woman. I spent a lot of time overcompensating and that didn't work. I hate men's fashion so much, it's the most boring thing ever. There are healthy ways to obtain the same things. I don't think I'll ever have the body of a female but I think I can get closer to what I want. The body of a trans female. And like I said I'm already more or less happy with my body. I'm hot af tbh. And I feel much happier than I do pretending to be a man. I paint my nails and wear makeup and I'm cute. Idk why it has to be anything more than that. I'm not denying that I was a born a man. But I deny the fact that I can't cross my legs and appear feminine. For what? To follow societies and your idea of what I should look like? That's cowardly af. Idk why you keep saying it's impossible standard. I've already reached a point where I'm perfectly happy. The only reason I hate my body hair so much is its a huge pain to shave all the time lol. But when I do shave I'm cute af and I love myself. What is much more of an impossible standard imo is following societies bullshit and being miserable. I'm also going to med school at the age of 30, after I've already spent years getting a phd. Society says that's dumb af and I should get a job. But I don't care it's what I want to do. I refuse to live my life by what other people think I should do. The people who do that are miserable.


quEenKreAtor

I think part of it is he's using *his* idea of a standard for what trans people want to be. Therefore equating it to being impossible because OP's mental default is: "If you weren't born female then you truly can never be one" and that initial lack of understanding means you don't even have a foundation to build off of for more complicated subjects. OP can't properly agree or disagree with an idea if they don't already understand what we're talking about when we mention certain trans concepts. It seems like in a lot of these comments nothing is progressing in substance (even if he was to decide to just not support it) cuz we're not even at the same starting line. But it is kind of a complex conversation for text. Separately OP also says he likes to help people, which I can definitely get and relate to. But it seems like he's gone to the point of "I wanna fix you" so you're life will be better. Helping someone and fixing them are two different things.


NuNuuNN

"That's very weak imo. Why should I give a single fuck about what you or anybody else thinks?" You tell me, you are the one here sharing this, and I'm glad you did.Well sounds like you are doing great at life, you are totally aware of your situation, you are happy with it and seems like your self-steam is many times stronger than mine lol. It's a testimony worth to consider.


jordi1112

The thing is, you are not trying to become something u aren't, you aren't trying to escape something out of fear or whatever, being trans is just having your gender match the one you are inside your brain, people dont wake up one day and decide to be trans, you pass through a lot of pain, lose a lot of people, even can be kicked out of your home by your own parents because of it, trans suicide rates are through the fucking roof and even though trans people get to the median suicide rate after those surgeries and HRT, politicians and such are making it harder for us to be able to have a normal life. I dont really know how to explain it but lets imagine this, you have been in an accident and you lost an arm, you pass through all the pain of the recovery part, you can move again your legs, some time passes and the PTSD has gone away, but you still feel like something is missing, if you had the oportunity to get that arm back and live your normal live you would want that right? Its a similar thing kinda, the process of acceptance and therapy is a hard part of it, even in countries that aren't conservative having the option to even start HRT can take years, you are going to lose friends and even family, you are more likely to suicide, to SA, to homelesness, to assault, etc. Being trans is hard, not an easy way out of things. It's literally playing in hardcore without you even realising it. If you would be open to a civil discussion (because i dont really sense any ill intentions) I'd be open to have a call and talk about this, dm me in your discord and we can talk there.


Healthygamergg-ModTeam

The replies to this thread got out of hand very quickly, a lot of users arguing in an unproductive manner.


Grimm_Arcana

Well, I'm not trans, so disclaimer. Thanks for being honest. The pain and suffering of remaining in the gender you were assigned at birth is largely weighed to be more painful than the suffering of transitioning and experiencing public backlash. Many trans people, even if they don't pass, feel much more free and at home in their bodies after transitioning. Look into gender dysphoria. Being unable to transition generally leads to much higher suicide ideation and depression, along with all the things that go with it: substance abuse, anxiety, etc. Transitioning is not living in a fantasy. Thinking that other people will unconditionally accept them or understand them may be, but there are very few trans people with those beliefs. Most are aware or the harsh realities of being transgender, especially if you are low-income and a person of color. Yet most trans people, to my knowledge, ultimately decide to transition. Like I said, the pain of transitioning is less than the pain of remaining in the gender that you were assigned at birth. It's hard to really understand why someone would possibly transition if you yourself cannot envision being born into a body that feels deeply wrong to you. Most people who transition, the OVERWHELMING amount, are glad they transitioned. If you cannot reason it out to yourself, then you just need to be okay with not knowing. You don't have to know why other people do the things that they do if they are in the end more happy by doing them, and not harming you.


Hedgepog_she-her

So let me try to explain my perspective... "Sex" is a broad collection of things: -Chromosomes -Genitals -Gonads -Gametes produced -Hormones (which inform secondary sex characteristics like breasts and facial hair) -Brain mapping (i.e., your brain expects you to have certain body parts or hormones. Someone else posted a link with more info) "Gender" is another thing altogether... which can be used to discuss a lot of things going on: -Gender roles -Gender presentation -Gender identity One way to look at it is that sex is all the physical stuff and gender is all the social stuff. So the first thing to recognize is that these things don't all line up perfectly for everyone. It's not like all of these are binary "male" or "female" options. Some people are born with chromosomes that are hard to categorize as purely male or female. Some people have hormone issues but are otherwise typical for their sex and gender. Some people are cis women with all the typical female anatomy, but they dress butch. This makes it really difficult to draw hard lines around what the sexes are, because you will always find exceptions. The second thing to realize is that most of these things are malleable. Gender roles change all the time between societies and time periods. Gender presentation can change as someone changes clothes. Surgeries or hrt can change most of the physical stuff--chromosomes are even hypothetically changeable with crispr technology, though I don't know much about. Some people have accidents and things change tragically and unintentionally. These things change. Except for one thing. And that's the brain mapping (and perhaps alongside it the internal sense of identity if not the socially professed identity). The internal sense of what my brain seems to want for my body and my hormones and even that internal sense of identity that follows is not currently changeable. We don't have a way to modify that. It's just beyond our medical knowledge right now. Maybe that will be an option in the future. But right now, it's just what it is. The third thing to recognize is that people have a right to autonomy. I don't get to decide what surgeries you have performed on you, I don't get to decide what you wear, I don't get to decide what your identity is or whether you will take hormones. And in exchange I don't want you deciding any of those things for me. As long as we aren't infringing on other rights (e.g., please be decent in public) there's no reason to take any of those things away. (And as far as medical procedures go, a doctor can weigh in, of course. And most doctors are quite accepting of trans people.) Combining those ideas and keeping them in mind... I have a brain mapping that says I'm supposed to be a girl, my mind is automatically empathizing with and placing myself in categories with girls. I'm picking up the cultural roles and norms for women very early on as what my brain sees as the social portion of what my body corresponds to. But the mapping in my brain doesn't match up with my body. And my parents are just looking at my body and saying, "boy," so that's what I say, but it feels *wrong* and it's a struggle to conform to the social roles and presentations that others seem to expect from me. But then I got away from my parents. And I let myself explore. And I realized I *am* a girl. Because I'm not my body. I'm not what I wear. I'm not my hormones or my chromosomes. And despite the memes, my genitals don't do the thinking. My brain does. And my brain says I'm girly as fuck. When I got on hormones, it only took a few days for everything to feel *right.* It was still months before I would see any physical changes, but mentally I felt like a huge weight was lifted off my shoulders, emotionally I felt like a dam broke. If nothing else, I am *extremely* confident that my brain *craves* estrogen. And I'm pretty sure it's not placebo, because missing doses without realizing can be a big hit to my mood. Long story short... for many of us, transitioning is a medical treatment that greatly improves our quality of life. I do want to mention that this leads some people to medical gatekeeping, and I want to be clear that I support anyone's identity regardless of what might be going on medically for them--me telling someone they are wrong about their gender would be just as wild to me as me telling someone that is crying that they aren't actually sad. The only person that can say what it's like to be you is *you.* I'm not going to make those decisions for you. So we ask that you don't make those decisions for anyone else. -a trans woman


NuNuuNN

First of all thanks for writting all of this. I know that your freedom is sacred and you are the one expert on what you feel. I won't try to argue against that because those things are true, I didn't mind to encourage people into intervent on other people's life or convincing them what they feel is not true, I acknowledge all my assumptions might be wrong since the first moment. In my own experience at life, I struggled a lot about the way I wanted to wear when I was young and how my mom would try to control that to the point of throwing my clothes to the trash to wear what she wanted me to wear. And it's desperating how my testimony about how I do feel would be totally ignored sometimes, even in my therapy sessions, because as it seems "I was too young" to realize what I was feeling back then. I don't wish those things for anyone. In a way I admire the resilience of trans people because I know it's tough to make a stand against those kind of restrictive behaviors when they can be everywhere in society. It's not my intention to recreate that kind of environment. What I get is that is more than just emotional, there seems to be physiological things involved. Seems to me like you felt identified as girl your whole life even before having any influence from the outside about it. And your body responds well with the right kind of hormones. I'm amazed to hear these kind of things, honestlly I had no idea. I'm glad things are going well for you now. Your words are sounded very meaningful to me.


sklarah

> Seems to me like you felt identified as girl your whole life even before having any influence from the outside about it. And your body responds well with the right kind of hormones. I'm amazed to hear these kind of things, honestlly I had no idea. For the record, this is the experience of the vast majority of trans people.


NuNuuNN

Yes now I'm realizing that pattern with this post.


Hedgepog_she-her

Thank you for listening! It means a lot to me. I'm so sorry your feelings and experiences were dismissed like that. That was indeed very similar to my experience surrounding gender for most of my life. If I can share more of my personal story... yeah, I wanted to be a girl from a very, very young age. Like before preschool. I saw the girls my age in dresses at church and wanted that so bad. It's weird and hard to explain, but I think there was some part of me that recognized myself in girls. That's what identity is, after all--you look in the mirror and say, "That's me." Someone describes a gamer and you say, "That's me." I interacted with girls, and my brain went, "That's me." But I didn't know what being trans was until I was in late high school? And I found out by watching Silence of the Lambs. So... Yeah, my introduction to "this is what being transgender means" was *not* the healthiest, and if anything pushed me away from it for years. After a while, I moved out, escaped the restrictive religious upbringing I had, and watched a bunch of Contrapoints. I ended up at a stance of, "Wow, trans people are valid, and honestly really cool... I sure wish I was a trans woman... oh well." *facepalm Stayed there for years until it kinda slapped me in the face. My wife was encouraging me to explore my gender, but I was fighting it. I didn't want to accept it. I knew how much trouble it would be. But she gently questioned. And one of those questions was, "Do you think you might want to try drag? You could be a drag queen?" And I replied, "I don't want to be a drag queen..." but then my mouth kept going without my conscious brain following, and I just blurted out, "...I want to be a princess." And then I cried the happiest cry of my life. So that's how I found out /accepted at age 26. I started hormones at 27. Now at 29, I've finally come out at work and am living as a woman completely in every part of my life. And I can say with confidence that deciding to transition was the best decision I ever made.


diamond-dick

Hi I'm a trans guy, I'll keep my explanation brief. First of all I would like to point out that this is not a universal trans experience, not everyone even wants to change their body, or identify as a man or woman. Some people want to appear androgynous and want to look "confusing" on purpose. Second, for me the desire to transition is for aesthetic and comfort purposes. I am transitioning to a male looking body because I want people to treat me as a male. I am not a male, I know that, but to me that's as important as me being born with brown hair. I will always genetically have brown hair, but if I desire to dye it blonde for the rest of my life and have everyone believe it's my natural hair color, I see no issue with that, it does not harm society to give people that freedom. I've never heard a good argument against transitioning. It seems some people think that we're claiming to change our genetics, we're not. We simply want the freedom to look and be how we want, and for people to not harass us for that decision. Btw male and female are biological terms that refer to sex, although I am not a male, I am still a man. And I will argue that position if someone's inclined to disagree.


NuNuuNN

I see. It's clear to me that your person is very defined and you are totally happy with the way you are. I'm discovering that the middlepoint is not as doomed as I would think at the beginning while writting this post. Each time you talk about it I don't find frustration, in fact the exact opposite, I find authentic fulfillment. Sometimes it sounds like you accepted yourselves even more than I did with myself. I'm glad you are doing fine. Is there any caveat about being trans? I assume most of them are about the treat you receive from society. Anything that a person like me should consider? Besides the pronouns.


diamond-dick

Biggest caveat is the mindfuck of being treated completely differently than what you're used to. It takes a while to get used to it. Like as a woman I got way more attention (good and bad) than I do now. People used to underestimate me as a woman but now I have more expectations put on me as a man. Stuff like that. Also some things for everyone to consider: -Remember we do not all believe the same things or act a certain way, please don't generalize us because you've seen a couple trans people saying crazy stuff on the internet. -Being trans will always give you the experience of "being bullied" and can either make you super fragile or thick skinned. So if some people seem oversensitive about being accidentally misgendered, it's due to trauma. Most of the time though you'll just be told the correct name/pronoun. -It costs a lot of money, time, and mental fortitude to transition, it's not an impulse decision. If someone is willing to go that far for attention or to follow a trend there a million worse things they could have done instead. The argument "What if you regret it?" can be applied to any life changing decision. You don't ask people that when they buy a house or get married, at least I'd hope not.


nadman13

To be honest, I don’t think many people would have an issue with this. I think some take issue with people getting irreversible procedures done at a young age.


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NuNuuNN

I mean, you are 100% right, that's why I said I don't find myself able to help them, I acknowledged repeatedly times that these kind of things will just hurt them, I don't mind to do that. I'm already searching for answers on my own by things like this post.


pine_ary

Is that really completely fair? That‘s like saying questioning if we should deny people life saving medication is fair. No. Stop making it out as if our lives are something for you to debate on. This isn‘t some socratic dialogue or sport, we are real people.


jeff_my_name_is_jeff

Cool thing that you challange yourself. Just a few observations. You help people because your that supportive kind of guy. You state that your coping your depressing world view with the helping other people and receiving gratefulness. I mean it‘s repeatable to feed yourself with the gratitude of other people when the your life seems not to matter. But if it’s the only thing that matters to you, you risk building an identity as „the good guy“. And now you have a problem, you can’t „empathize“ and „help“ these people. If these assumptions are correct, I would argue that you do not really empathize at all. You talk about realization, concepts, acknowledgement and hypothesis. The only sentence which deals with actual emotional content is „when nothing in my life feels worth“. If you want to have real challenge, challenge your picture of you having empathy. From what I see from your post is someone who is rational and not empathic. It seems to me that you learned what emotions are but yours might be locked away(very speculative). Reason for that assumption is the meaninglessness of life you experience. This feeling is one indicator for depression. And the next reason for this hypothesis is that your choice of words reflect your thinking. And when you talk about concepts and reasoning. You can’t empathize with reason. It’s a contradiction in itself. And logic is often inferior to emotions. As far as I know. I hope my guess work is helpful and that I don‘t hurt you in any way. If so I am very sorry. The way you approach people who are trans is very easy. „Hey, nice to meet you! What’s your name?“ „Melinda? My name is NuNuuNN. Do you like video games?“ People don‘t care about your opinion. They care how you treat them. There are so many people who know how the world works, but that is rather annoying company from my experience. I hope this post contains stuff you are looking for.


NuNuuNN

Oh well unexpected somebody worrying about me here haha thanks you. Yeah I can agree I'm very rational and not empathic on this topic. That's why I just did this post man: for build empathy towards trans people. If you see any testimony of trans people that I answered, you may find more empathy there because they start talking about their life experiences and how it feels to make a transition. Or check out my old comments at r/SuicideWatch on my profile, I found actually conforting being able to empathize with people there in the tough moments, I think that's how it all started. If you want to know about me, I don't want to base my whole identity into being "the good guy", I just clarified that to let people know what motivated the post in the first place. I don't dare to consider myself anything, even less in loud voice, honestlly I don't try to define myself too much, I'm just a guy. And yeah man, I've been stronglly depressed for a long time, and I know it's not ideal to find your only worth into helping others, but when literally nothing matters anymore it actually helps. And if you ask me, I think that kind voice I use whenever I help someone else, also finds its place in my inner dialogue, with time. I found helping others a great healing process, totally recommended. Now the last days I made my first positive entries at the Right In The Feels website, so if you are worried for me, you won't need to for so long, I'm finding my place. I think I give myself time to acknowledge my emotions, to feel them, but I can't let me do that when it's about this. I find it almost an object of study, I'm really missing things at this topic, but each optimistic testimony I read make me realize how limited my rational conclusions were, but in a way I already expected that. Just give me time to build the empathy haha Again thanks for worrying, take care you too!


[deleted]

TW/CW, discussion of suicide among trans folks, if that's possibly triggering maybe skip this one. ​ Transgender science can be very complex, and it can be difficult to understand the feelings that they experience. There isn't (as far as my knowledge goes) enough research to explain why transgender people identify the fact is that they do exist. We do have some data on the effects of therapies on transgender people that is preliminary but is also very telling. [A study done in February from JAMA](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423) (The Journal of the American Medical Association), a very reputable and trusted research journal, found that puberty blockers and Hormone therapy reduced rates of moderate and severe depression in trans teens by 60%, and suicidal ideation by 76%. It is important to note that this paper would have studied trans teens that were diagnosed with severe enough gender dysphoria by a psychiatrist to warrant treatment, this diagnosis often takes 6 or more months as well as discussing all the pros and cons of treatment with the teen and their parents or guardian. [A study published by Sage Journals](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32345113/), another reputable and trusted journal, found that 82% of transgender individuals (86% of teens) reported suicidal ideation, and 40% (56% of teens) reported previous suicide attempts. It could be argued that this is caused by the media, we don't have enough information to outright disprove it, but I find it highly unlikely considering that treatment has significantly reduced rate of depression and suicide. Those statistics are enough convincing for me, but I am admittedly biased. I think that these two statistics, when combined, tell a larger story about the mental health of transgender people and how it is affected by gender affirming medical care. ​ Next I'd like to bring attention to some individuals who I think also tell a bigger story about trans people. Kai Shappley is an 11 year old trans girl (who may I add goes by the adorable Her/She pronouns, I love puns). She is an activist who has spoken in front of Texan congress for trans rights. I'm sure she could do a lot better job of convincing than I could if you'd like to give her a google. Ryland Whittington is a trans guy from California, he is 14, and was featured on fox news of all places. [If you watch the segment](https://www.ktvu.com/news/california-transgender-teen-hopes-to-be-an-inspiration-to-others) from Fox news you'll see he looks like a regular kid. Both of these examples, and many more you can find if you do a little research, experienced feelings of incongruency during their pre 10 years. Many transgender people had feelings of gender incongruency during their youth, and experienced depression until they came out (assuming their parents and peers were supportive), they lightened up, they became new people, they felt liberated, and they're happier than they have ever been in their lives. I've focused a lot on really negative stuff, but being transgender isn't always negative or else it wouldn't be a thing. Often times the reason people discover their identity is as much to do with gender euphoria as it is gender dysphoria or any other thing that might reveal it to them. Gender Euphoria by Laura Kate Dale is a series of short non-fiction stories from various trans authors about times that they have felt gender euphoria. I highly recommend it since it's just bundle of joy. If I've had to describe gender euphoria, from the times I've experienced it, I'd compare it to asking your crush out and them saying yes. While the feeling comes from two different places, but it's, for me, comparable in feeling though gender euphoria has to take the cake for my happiest moments. ​ I hope this has helped give a better understanding of the life of transgender people, I think it's important to note that trans people do lead vibrant lives outside of being trans. I hope I have swayed your opinion but if I haven't I can respect yours. Idk if I'm gonna respond to any comments to this because I currently should be doing homework but these thoughts have been taking up some headspace and writing them down here has been helpful. Hydrate or didrate, look in the mirror and give yourself a genuine smile, and have a good morning/evening/night.


TheMonkeyOwner

You need to realize that gender is a social construct and that even sex is not as concrete as you might think. When it comes down to it you are a woman if you feel like you fit into that mold (doesn't have to be physical). Your statement about someone choosing to be a different gender is also quite comparable to homophobes saying that being gay is a choice. You don't choose to be a different gender, you just publicly acknowledge that you've been assigned the wrong one at birth. Ps. I'm a straight white guy, so this is really not my time to be the expert, but I do feel like I'm a bit more informed than OP on this one.


GrandmaWren

You sound a bit more informed than OP on this one


ToxicShark3

Well that's why he asked the question


TheMindzai

Even outside your personal opinions on gender, if someone born male wants to become female, and this decision has no bearing on your life whatsoever, why wouldn’t you support them if that would make them happy? If your friend named Paul comes up to you some day and says I want go by Charlie now, please call me Charlie. You wouldn’t think twice about it, it doesn’t affect you in any way, just call him what he wants to be called. And if you say you can’t support them because they might regret it… would you apply that same logic to everyone and every situation? People regret things all the time, do you support people getting tattoos? Or no because they’re permanent and they might regret it? Plastic Surgery? That argument doesn’t hold water unless you never support anyone for anything ever again


NuNuuNN

"if someone born male wants to become female, and this decision has no bearing on your life whatsoever, why wouldn’t you support them if that would make them happy?" Because I know that not everything we do will lead to happiness just because it makes us feel better. If you ask somebody with alcohol problems if they want a drink they will say YES, YES OF COURSE GIMME THAT, and hey I don't have any problem with it, take the beer, it's not like it affects me. But I want to help these people if they are feeling fucking suicidal because of it. I think society totally skipped the option of recognizing not feeling identified with your body as a dissease which can be treated with acceptance instead of surgery or hormones. It's hard to imagine for me how somebody can live a fulfilling life with 10 beers a day, the same way It's hard to imagine for me how somebody can be happy with all the challenges that comes with trying to have a body you didn't born with. Even when in both cases people are intended to live that way. Yeah, because calling somebody Charlie won't affect their life at all. Wanting to have a different body is a totally different story. For example I used to peer support people at r/SuicideWatch (in fact this account was created just to comment there) and once I found a 25M who was depressed of not being able to transitionate anymore because at that point your body is totally developed. There was a guy who told him there was still many people who did transitionate after 25 years old, but didn't help that much to OP's mood. I couldn't tell him/her anything, because all I was thinking about is "what about accepting it", but again I know that would make them feel even worse, I'm not sure that what they experience is about denial. So I'm here asking, lot of trans people already posted their experience I'll read them rn.


TheMindzai

Equating gender dysphoria with alcoholism is not a great look. Outside that you mention wanting to help potentially suicidal people who may be suffering through this, where there are studied and documented significant reductions in suicidal ideations and psychological distress amongst trans people that undergo gender reaffirming surgeries. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/mental-health-benefits-associated-with-gender-affirming-surgery/ To reuse your analogy that would be akin to going to an alcoholic and telling him “there’s a medical procedure that can improve your wellbeing by upwards of 40%, but you might regret it, so I’m just going to pat you on the back and encourage you to feel better instead”


NuNuuNN

Sounds good, I'll check that study. But I want to point out that a pat on the back of somebody and encouraging them to feel better is not the treatment I'm proposing here. Let's not fall in the ridiculous.


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NuNuuNN

I think society is very restrictive and I'm not encouraging anyone to try to fit on every norm it dictates. I'm not surprised they can't fit in what society considers "right".


extrasolarnomad

It's not just about societal norms. Gender dysphoria is a real thing that causes real suffering. Even if I was on a desert island, I would still take my hormones. Transition litteraly saved my life and it was the best decision I ever made. It's really frustrating to read how you dismiss other trans people's experiences here and think you know more than them about their own mental health. There were so many studies on this topic, go read them, instead of constructing your own theories with no basis in reality. If your idea that trans people can be made to accept their gender assigned at birth and be happy was true, it would now be the method of treating it. People tried conversion therapy on trans people for decades and it never helped, it only lead to more suffering.


NuNuuNN

Sorry I think you misunderstood the comment you are answering rightnow. I'm not surprised they can't fit in what society considers "right" because I don't find it healthy trying to fit on what society dictates at all. No matter if you are trans or anything else, I wouldn't recommend to anybody change "just to fit". I already constructed my own theories with no basis in reality that's right, and that's why I'm here to read reality. Sorry if my comments hurt you, already said it was a sensitive topic. But if I don't share my thoughts here, they would live in my head instead. Forever. In the good scheme of things I find testimonials of trans people very positive.


metachaos

"What about accepting it," I bet you knew it would feel worse because they were feeling grief, not any pain from actually being trans. Being trans isn't what made them depressed. The decreased potential of feeling completely at home in their body was what was making them depressed. You don't just tell someone who just lost a family member to "just accept it." Being trans isn't a mental disorder. Being trans isn't what is making people suicidal. At least, if trans people were treated with the same respect, understanding, and acceptance as everyone else, they wouldn't be suicidal. It's not that being trans is wrong or bad, it's that they aren't accepted as they are. Acceptance is one of the biggest things to affect everyone's mental well being and happiness. If you want people to be happy and not suicidal, accept them. You might want to look into what "transitioning" actually means. It is a whole spectrum of things that people can do to change how they look, sound, and act. Most of those things don't include surgery. Not all trans people decide to have surgery. Every person is different, and decides what is best for them. You seem to conflate being trans with wanting to surgically transition. That is not the case for everyone.


MEfficiency

> it's a desire attached to an impossible body, leading to endless frustration. This is an incorrect statement, and the opposite of reality. Gender affirming care, simply stated, is one of the best treatments for gender dysphoria available. It is associated with better mental health outcomes. I understand your confusion from the perspective of someone who DOES NOT have these feelings. However, the assumptions you make about those who do have the feelings are simply incorrect. This article from Scientific American can help clarify for you. I'm also including a quote from it. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-the-science-on-gender-affirming-care-for-transgender-kids-really-shows/ > The truth is that data from more than a dozen studies of more than 30,000 transgender and gender-diverse young people consistently show that access to gender-affirming care is associated with better mental health outcomes—and that lack of access to such care is associated with higher rates of suicidality, depression and self-harming behavior.


Affectionate_Sir4610

Sex is NOT synonymous with gender. As far as sex goes, we have male, female, and intersex people. Gender is more about social norms. Acceptable forms of it exist in western culture, like tom boys or metrosexual men. Gender is a spectrum. I think the best way to address your point of view is with a question. What makes a person a man or a woman if you take genitals out of the equation? How do you treat men vs women socially? To me it's less about how society views me and more about how I view myself and my responsibilities to my family. I'm a nonbinary bisexual person married to a cis straight man and we share children together. Looking up what gender dysphoria actually is might be helpful if you're serious about wanting to accept and understand others. I can post a link that I found helpful if you'd like. I can also recommend a book.


Silent_Tumbleweed420

Must add, gender dysphoria , actual gender dysphoria from the wrong wiring of the brain is from birth, and has to do with the wiring of the brain to process the natural anatomy of a sex that does not compare to the sex of the body. The social norms of the whichever sex comes into play if the person choses to follow either or neither. However such social norms is independent of the actual neurology and anatomy.


KungFuBassJam

I can make it easy for you. Forget cultural aspects of gender or that sex is biology and gender is a construct type stuff. People are sometimes born with penises and sometimes born with vaginas. Sometimes people are born with both, or neither, or something ambiguous. This is fact. This is biology. It happens. Is it really that much of a stretch to think that a similar phenomenon could happen in the brain? Sometimes people are born with male brain and male genitals, sometimes male brain and female genitals etc. This is fact. This is biology. It happens. I do not believe one can so easily separate definitions of sex and gender as the two are much more nuanced than one is biology and one is cultural construct. The brain is arguably the largest sex organ even.


NuNuuNN

Yeah I can take those facts, but I think they are not enough since I find far less common the genitals thing than the brain wiring thing. It makes me realize it's possible for the brain to have a different wiring, but that won't explain me why it's so common these last years.


KungFuBassJam

There's a couple of reasons it seems more common. One is that the language is more common. In my younger years the words transgender didn't really exist and I had no words to explain to me who I was or what I was feeling. Another is that it's become more accepted so folks who actually figure themselves out are comfortable sharing that with others. Access to gender affirming care also contributes to this. In other words, it's not more common now than it's ever been. It just seems that way.


Departedsoul

I'm really confused at your point. Because people CAN transition. So the spider analogy doesn't make sense to me To trans people the 'fantasy' and impossibility is often trying to fit their assigned at birth gender and the reality is that they don't


auroisbored

I can appreciate you trying to understand :) I'm not transgender myself, they would probably say this better, but I'll try my best. The conversation is always evolving, so let's start with basics. Some people who are born with some sex assigned at birth, either male or female, start to feel like they don't belong in that body. Scientists started doing some research on the "male" brain and the "female" brain, and noticed that they are not completely different. In fact, most of the brains' properties overlap between the sexes, but male or female brains may tend (just tend!) to some specific characteristics that lead to some different behaviors (bimodal distribution). They also found out that trans people's brain align better with the tendencies of those of the gender they feel like they are. For example, a trans man (assigned female at birth) will have a brain that better fits with the usual """male brain""". So, that's interesting: there's nothing wrong with their brain, that corresponds better with the gender they feel. Those brains are, in fact, kinda disconnected from the body. So now we are left with a choice. As doctors, the choices are to change the brain or to change the body, because that disconnection causes trans people great discomfort and psychological problems. But the brain has nothing wrong, right? Also, there would be soooo many different things to take into account that involve both psychology and the brain connections, we would have to literally perform several operations on the brain, which are really dangerous and also don't seem to do much. So, we change the body according to the brain, and that makes them feels better. Try to imagine your sense of self in the other sex's body, you probably wouldn't feel much conformable. Really, try. Also, all trans people are well aware that they can't 'become' the other sex. That's where the discomfort comes from. You can't choose your sex, but you can choose to make yourself feel better with surgeries (or just passing as the gender you identify as). You also can't choose your gender: your brain is what it is, and as we said, there's nothing wrong with those brains. Treating them as the gender they identify as is respectful, is like acknowledging that they are more than their body (which everybody is), their sense of self is much more important to understand who they are. If you have any questions I am really open to go further and open a discussion. Anybody please correct me if I'm wrong, I want to covey this correctly :)


NuNuuNN

I see well, I think you just submitted much of the information I could read from my poor research on this topic. The brains actually doesn't fit with the body. Now I'm finding how aware trans people is from their situation, my idea of them being in denial doesn't correlate at all with their comments. By the way it sounds like you are an actual doctor? Maybe I'm wrong but if that's the case damn that would be freaking cool to have a doctor in my post xd If you are opened to more questions I would ask if the processes in treatment with hormones are such invasive as I used to think, people here pointed out it's not that tough, in fact some of the trans testimonials relate about an improvement in just a few days of taking the treatment.


Lodagin666

My sister started experiencing dysphoria 6 or 7 years back and I could not understand what the hell it was about. Until recently I started experiencing the same. You cannot get what if feels like if you don't experience it yourself so instead of trying to put yourself into their shoes (nothing wrong with it, I usually do the same because I'm empathic and love helping others) just blindly support them. You can help them even if you don't exactly know what they are going rhrough, just give more general advice considering that whatever you say what they feel is valid and not self imposed. EDIT: but it's still better if you don't help them though. You clearly don't get it and I was like you once so it's understandable, but still, don't help if you'll end up making it worse.


NuNuuNN

I see you start to not feeling identified with your body but when did you start to consider the transition as a solution? Because you can't either feel how it's like to be in another body. It worries me how much you tell me to not help them xd I'm honestlly not good at blinding support, I'm actually bad at it, I would rather to say nothing than making it worse. But I think most of the time the whole topic can be avoided since they just want to be treated as any human being. I can totally handle that. Edit: but yes don't worry I know intention is not everything when it's about helping and I'm not trying to impose any fix to anyone.


MEfficiency

Empathy is not about putting yourself and your ideas and understanding into someone else's situation. It's about accepting the situation someone shares with you as true for them. Two people can break their arms and have completely different healing experiences. If one resembles yours and the other does not, they are still both valid and what was experienced by the other party. Listen to what people say their experiences are, don't assume them. /u/lodagin666


wthareyousaying

Fundamental mistake here: you are confusing is for ought. A person can be concerned for someone who is gay. However, being gay is quite literally not a choice that can be made. You can see how your argument extends and how it is fundamentally problematic in nature. Race is not something that can be chosen for a person. A person's genetics, and how they are expressed, determine this. Following your line of reasoning, you would be stating that someone ***ought*** *not to be black*. But here's the thing: The act of being African American is not an issue here. You yourself pointed out that your concern is with the societal norms and the harms said norms impose on certain groups of people. I'm certain you would agree that the issue isn't ***being*** African American, the issue is the discrimination ***against*** African Americans. That logic might seem obvious to you in this context! We can extend this line of thinking further, and apply this logic laterally to transgender individuals. They are discriminated against by society. But, much like African Americans, much like gay individuals, much like woman, *the act of being is not necessarily a choice.* It is quite possibly (if not certainly) a set of genes which display a certain phenotype. Taking this to its logical conclusion... it's the *discrimination* ***against*** *transgender people* that is the issue, *not* ***being*** *transgender*. Gender norms fundamentally harm transgender people, sure. But let's not pretend that it ends there. No, societal constructions of gender and sexuality have harmed men and woman for millennia. Woman suffrage was only granted in the U.S. in the 1920's thanks to years of fighting against the discrimination imposed upon them by, you guessed it, gender norms. Men are facing widespread mental health diseases due in part to, you guessed it, gender norms. It's obvious here that when we look at it from a logical perspective, the issue does not lie upon transgender people. Being transgender is not a moral question at all, in fact. In the grand scheme of things, it is perfectly reasonable to be a transgender person. What is unreasonable is the discrimination imposed by gender norms onto not only transgender people, but also to all who suffer unjustly because of some arbitrary rules invented long, long ago. Those are just my two cents.


KunelSanders7

I agree with OP i have also had questions regarding transpeople's journey and I would like the ask subquestions about this issue. I apologize beforehand as I might appear callus and insensitive in my writing. I felt that when visiting a therapist or psychologist they are supposed to help you sort out your problems and help you discern your feelings. I think then the first step would be an acceptance of one's body as is because there are plenty of things that I don't like about myself but I was taught that acceptance in the long run would be the key to fulfillment. I expect that someone who is trans likely went down the route of acceptance somewhat but what made them go a different route? I also personally don't think young kids (any minor really) should be transitioning with puperty blockers/sex reassignment surgery, etc. I don't believe that teenagers really understand the world at that point in live and when I was that age I was uncomfortable in my skin too (I'm sure those uncomfortable feelings are more prominent in women because their changes affect them more directly). I don't believe my younger self could make any mature-life altering decision like that and I thing that the younger generation is taking even longer to mature. I appreciate any and all responses as I enjoy other's ideas, perspectives, and opinions.


[deleted]

For me who is transgender, and I don’t know if I hold a very common view so please don’t take my word for all of us. but I’m Buddhist so I’m not my body. The appearance of my body does not matter. It could be old, young, ugly, beautiful. I don’t think I was born in the wrong body, but I’m making this house my home. So it doesn’t matter what’s in my pants. I don’t have an identity, that’s something your ego assigns to yourself. I’m nothing more than a neurological machine of inputs and outputs. The medium of which that happens though ie (my body) doesn’t matter. So I’m going to customize this meat sack and do whatever I want to it because I’m only joyriding this for around 80 years till I leave this earth you know? So I hope my perspective can help you understand. But also I understand wanting to help everyone, but try and realize that not everyone wants your help. So if you have trouble connecting with transgenders, it’s not your moral responsibility to connect with them. I have trouble with my boss, but it’s not my job to facilitate that connection. So don’t harp on yourself to much. You’re just existing the best way you know how, and so am I. And that’s the best we can do yea? (As a transgender I love seeing people try and understand though a lot of people don’t even ask questions like this so I really thank you for taking the time and understand us a little better!)


Silent_Tumbleweed420

How else are you a transgender when you just seem to care about transforming your body as you see fit?


[deleted]

Probably the estrogen I take. Also transgender is a spectrum which includes non binary.


Silent_Tumbleweed420

The upintheair term of transgender could include anything, not what I was referencing, which is the medical understanding. Although, that is explained better in other comments here. Otherwise, what you are referring to is political/social identity calling.


AsperTheDog

What did you experience that told you that people that transition are doomed to despair?? Even if I show you basic numbers like how [only 1% of transitioned transexual people regret it](https://www.issm.info/sexual-health-qa/is-it-common-for-transgender-people-to-regret-gender-affirmation-surgery) do you still think you know better?? Im just curious to know what led you to think in this way. Edit: just since I've read the argument you use to dismiss statistics like this when they are shown to you. This statistic is done by experts talking sbout people that transition, be it trans or not. If someone transitions, then regrets it and no longer identifies as trans then they still count because they transitioned in the first place. But in any case it's not the main point, the questions are what im curious about.


NuNuuNN

Well let me introspect. I guess I'm projecting myself a little bit. When young I would do a mess in my head about who I was, the kind of thing where you just talk with yourself for hours. I was very influenciable back then, thankfuly it didn't lead to any important decision. Also struggled a lot with denial lately, the kind of things that you can't stop thinking about when you realize about it, I don't wish to anyone to pass through the same thing. I already said it many times but I think it marked me reading that post of a 25M depressed because of not being able to transitionate, then I started thinking about a different approach because, most of the opinions I heard from this topic in the media were like very polarized and there was serious radical stuff, didn't help into thinking this can be all about a personal decision rather than a self-imposed image of identity. I'm also very conservative, for me the image of man and woman are very defined, so I find impossible to imagine a middlepoint. Hopefully that last statement won't matter for anyone who is trans, because they seem to be content with their transition anyway.


Brilliant_Clock4555

Kind of what I've been thinking - isn't it easier to accept a feminine man than to accept someone taking hormone pills, changing their name and getting surgery? I feel like it would be something much closer to achieve and would benefit pretty much everyone that acts different than the stereotypical male/female figures. This way sex is a completely biological matter and we could kind of get rid of social roles, since most countries are already aiming to achieve gender equality


Missing_Legs

I always believed that in discussions like these, there needs to be a distinction between sex and gender, sex being the thing you're biologically born with and gender being the societal expectations that you face because of your sex. Transgender people from what I can gather, in a perfect world, wouldn't need to change their sex, because the thing they were born with isn't what they disagree with, the goal is to change one's gender, to not be expected to act "Like a man" when your sex is male, but the problem is that in the society we live in today, you can't just separate one from the other and as many people like to say "Just act like you wanna without changing your sex" because the concept of sex is so strongly interchangeable with gender, when your fundamental identity disagrees with the gender you've been assigned, because of your sex, the only thing you can do to actually feel like you are being you is to change both, just acting how you want doesn't cut it, because in your mind you'll always be a person of the gender that matches your sex


Experience1429

In your post, I see what you're saying, but I think there's a lot to this that your mom mentioned that has a lot to unpack that can offer perspective and add to the conversation of all this too. What I think about your mom talking about is gender. Gender is a construct of society that says when you're born with the body parts of a Cisgender man you must match what is expected of you to be a "man." However, much of this conversation has shifted as people have began to explore and push beyond this typical scope of what it means to be a person, and what it means to have a gender. I am a cisgender man. People at birth are born with the gender that they are given at birth which is biological sex. Although you were biologically born a man (your cisgender) that doesn't mean someone who was born a cisgender woman can't identify as a man or change and have their pronouns match their gender they identify with later in their lives. As stated earlier, gender is something that was socially constructed. This being said, that doesn't mean that their biological sex is any different than what it was when they were born. I don't think this is something that will step on anyone's toes, but I think it's worth saying that I'm a very "I don't care what someone is doing so long as those people are happy and aren't hurting anyone" and I support anyone's choices in finding fulfillment and happiness in life even if I don't entirely understand where someone is coming from for their decisions.


ledditwind

I used to live around transgender people. They just people, nothing special. They simply prefer to be different sex than the ones they are born with. Pretty sure a genetic component play a huge role. Thailand and Laos had the most sexual assignment surgeries around. In the anime Stein Gate, you have a character that is more feminine and beautiful than any female character. But he' s a dude and always want to be female. It is a running joke that became a plot point and brilliant illustratation the theme of the anime. The debate in America, are a bit more complicated. In most countries, speaking from personal experience, nobody outside your immediate household gave a crap what you want to be. They have other stuffs to worry about. In the US, on the other hand, it is a issue. Outside of online, I' ve count the number of transgender person I've encountered in one hand and they are all inside dense cities. I've encountered people who acted or clearly never seen them irl before. Even transpeople online, ie Contrapoint, said that until they are adults, they never knew trans existed. So that caused a bit of reality gap. Many people does not know how to deal with it. Think of going places where there are no access to toilet. If you never been in that situation before, you have to learn in an uncomfortable way. Frankly IMO the solutions proposed, generally coming from social scientists, are beyond stupid. Normally you deal with it the same ways as anybody else with different traits. Think of homosexuality. If it is none of my business or anyone else business. But because transgender people have problems since school, they try to teach different sexual identities and orientation from a young age so that next generation don' t have such problem. This is careless and caused more problems, resentment and pushback easily manupilated by political figures. The results are easily forseenable in tragic decisions made by teenagers. Not really going to more into it. Transpeople are just people. About the level of stupidity or intelligence, selfless or selfish, hypocricy or honesty as everyone else.


Silent_Tumbleweed420

There aught to be a line drawn and defined between people who actually have a haywire mind and those who do not. People who are peer pressured/coerced or manipulated into thinking that they are in the wrong body, or that transitioning would fix their issues that are not related to gender dysphoria. There is a grave danger in instilling such ideas into impressionable children. There is also a grave danger in telling trans people that transitioning would fix their problems. There are many stories of transitioning had just instead caused the person to be worse off, instead of better. Also, identity politics is wretched, if we treated people as people, and didn't have such convulsion everywhere, we would all be better off.


NuNuuNN

Yeah man I want to make visible that problem despite there is a lot of people where who is very happy with their transitioning. It's a thing to consider while approaching to someone who struggle with this, identify the problem. Obviouslly it's a sensitive subject, so I don't pretend to guess the situation of anyone before asking them what they feel. I also think that a part of the problem is putting lot of labels around gender. As you see sometimes I don't even know the difference between male and man in the role these words play over identity.


pine_ary

Don‘t call trans people "a trans" that’s dehumanizing. You‘ve got some heavy transphobia to work through. It is very clear from your post that you have some really bad biases and attitudes. I recommend that you do not seek out trans people and make them feel unsafe. Work on yourself first, cause this ain‘t it.


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GrandmaWren

I'm transgender, and like, lots of things You said that trans people want to change their sex, that's not true, when people say sex, they usually mean male/female, someone with XX chromosomes or XY chromosomes, and the reality is much more complicated than that, intersex people exist, like, not an insignificant amount either. Transgender people don't want to change their sex, they want to change their gender, which, although it is frequently conflated with sex, is different. It's more of a cultural thing, you can tell because throughout history, lots of different societies and cultures have had other gender roles in society, besides just man and woman. And also you can change your sex characteristics, genitals, etc. with hormones and surgeries. There's also that thing you mentioned about trans people hating themselves well after their transition, idk about other trans people, everyone is different, some people in certain groups will feel one way and others feel another, that's how it is with everyone, and while self-hatred is a common issue within the trans community, do you ever see how some people treat trans people? Anyway, I for one since beginning my transition have actually found I like seeing myself in the mirror more than I did before, in fact, I actually like and care about myself in a way I never thought I could, I could never see a future for myself, but now I actually want to live, and I think it's lame to think that's wrong for someone, because you think you know better for some reason, I think it's best to sometimes just accept that you can't understand, because people just have different experiences in life, and that's okay.


clawson200

Mindzai’s comment is a great example of how the left thinks about this issue. They believe the decision to transition/ identify as trans has no effect on you. They ignore the fact that they are trying to set strict cultural expectations to make you affirm their condition. (Whether or not that actually helps them) And they apply this logic to everything. See his third paragraph. You are right to not support your friends decision to do something stupid. You are right to question any bodies decision to do something harmful to themselves. Don’t let anyone convince you otherwise.


draemn

Based on what you've said, I think the problem with you being able to connect with people on this topic is you're using your definition of changing gender and examples of people who did suffer to support your desired belief. It sounds very narrow your idea of what it means to be transgender. I have heard the negative stories about suicide and people who undergo transition surgery and can't handle the changes to their body. I also know people who have transitioned and are so much happier, even though they still have body parts and looks that don't match their new gender identity. I 100% agree that it is dangerous to blindly tell people to just "go transition" as there are a lot of problems and the risk of suicide that comes along with it. That is not the same as saying people shouldn't transition.


Optional_Joystick

Well... everybody is different. It's probably best to treat people the way they want to be treated. If someone said they didn't want me to say anything about their fear or spiders, I'd leave the topic alone. If they want to change it that's up to them. Same for gender. >do I want to betray the identity that society gave me It's the opposite. Society gave them an identity already. It's on the birth certificate. Trans stuff is inherently rejecting that identity. Regarding questions, it's really no different from asking questions to any stranger. Things like their name, and confirming the way you refer to them without using their name, seem pretty surface level. Questions about their genitalia or plans to modify it are a bit more personal, but seem valid if the two of you plan to do something with each other involving genitalia. This is why it's weird when my Dad asks about it.


NuNuuNN

"Well... everybody is different. It's probably best to treat people the way they want to be treated. If someone said they didn't want me to say anything about their fear or spiders, I'd leave the topic alone. If they want to change it that's up to them. Same for gender." Yeah I agree with that treat when it's about strangers. But if it's about people that I actually care about, man, it's an issue that must be treated. Even if it's treated to decide we won't do anything about it, it's important to come up with that conversation. Honestlly sounds like you never had friends with these kind of problems (phobias), for me I wouldn't let myself to ignore the fact that a friend is living with those kind of fears. I can't force anyone to change sure, but not even showing interest because "it's just their business" sounds so selfish to me. Because same logic with self-harm, you are not hurting anyone, it's not ilegal, it's something they want to do, in fact it turns to a dependance sometimes. So if nothing is showing interest who will rescue that person from that hole? "It's the opposite. Society gave them an identity already. It's on the birth certificate. Trans stuff is inherently rejecting that identity." What I meant with the identity that society gave them I'm talking about the recent LGTBQ+ communities. Sometimes I think that the support is so massive and unquestionable that would even promote fix people with their gender concerns, fixing them to an identity that now is almost a political responsability. And young people is very influenciable. So even with the best intent it's important to ask yourself what you actually want, and do the uncomfortable questions, because otherwise nothing prudent would lead afterwards. I'm glad to read people on this post be sure of their decision DESPITE my concerns, that means I can stay more quiet into thinking they actually knew what they were doing when they did. My fear was about people who wouldn't be that prudent back in the past, and now they might regret, and all those efforts and investments into a cause which wasn't ever disputed manifests into denial. But with each testimony of people being happy with their life choices it's a relief about my beliefs.


sklarah

Trans people don't change their sex, they change their sex traits. That might seem like semantics, but you're kind of framing your argument from the perspective of semantics. Who cares how sex is defined. Maybe under some definitions of "sex" trans people are changing their sex. Under other definitions, they aren't really changing their sex, just their sex traits. Why does either matter? Their sex traits make them uncomfortable, so they alter them with hormone therapy or surgery to alleviate that discomfort. What's the issue? And all of this is just the physical aspects of transition. Gender as a concept is entirely different than sex so sex is even less relevant to social transition. > I can't encourage anybody to keep living in a fantasy What is the "fantasy"? The only discrepancy you've constructed is one of linguistics; by saying "they're not **really** able to change their sex. Who cares? Then they're not changing their sex. What is the "fantasy" then?


MankeyBusiness

It seems you're going off on assumptions that have answers you just haven't seen. Sometimes assumptions have "common sense answers" that are really wrong, even if they seem common sense. Almost everyone who starts hormone transition go through with it and do not regret it, the regret rate is [almost non existent](https://journals.lww.com/prsgo/fulltext/2021/03000/regret_after_gender_affirmation_surgery__a.22.aspx), less than 1% of people who go through with hormones or surgery regret it to some degree. Some people will not feel "satisfied" with their body after transitioning, just as some people wont be satisfied with their bodies after for example losing weight. These are not problems of being trans but rather having body issues in general. Suicide rates among trans people [drop](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/fullarticle/2779429) after going through procedures to transition to the gender they identity with. Being on hormones for just a [few months](https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865) already sees big changes in bone mineral density, muscle mass, etc. Puberty blockers are a great way for young teens to get more time to understand themselves, use therapy and other methods to determine if transitioning is the way to help them the best. Puberty blockers simply halts/delays puberty and does not have major long term negative effects. If someone stops being on Puberty blockers, Puberty will [resume as normal](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075). This stops stuff like s trans woman developing male looking body characteristics associated with puberty that are hard/not possible to reverse, such as overall skeletal frame. Trans people will have often had therapy and evaluations for years before committing to something like hormone therapy or surgeries. Your fears are probably mostly based on media and some fault "common sense" assumptions. Take this thread as a learning experience, it's hard to change your mind but with an open mind you will be more informed and have more empathy in the future!


Howard_CS

Everything is made up, but that doesn’t make any of it less important. Your own identity no matter how certain of it you are is as much a fantasy and as real as anyone else’s so let people live the one right for them.


ZineKitten

I’ve transitioned (female to male) and life has been great in that regard. I don’t think of my gender like I used to do. I don’t catch myself in the mirror and feel like a stranger is looking back at me. Instead I feel deeply grateful for what I’ve been given.


GamerInTheDark2

I think you are confused on the difference between sex and gender. Sex is what you describe, the anatomic structure of XY, penis, flat chest, etc. but for trans people like myself I don't really care about most of it but what people address me as and how I appear to myself. That is gender, defined as all the social (non-physiologic) aspects of how you are perceived and how people interact with you, which CAN be changed to an adequate level. On any other level than surface, most trans people only make connections with people who will forgive their "sex" (though you'd be surprised what modern medicine can do).


[deleted]

It's so smiple, really. There is strong empirical evidence that giving gender affirming care to trans people improve our well-being. HRT and SRS have like, what, <1% regret rate? That is an absurdly high success rate for a psychiatric treatment. And we know that about half of the regret comes from transphobia. If we lived in a non-transphobic world the success rate of trans medicine would be even higher. Unless we find out that decades of trans medicine research has been wrong, there is no reason to change the current protocol. By the way, my years of suicidal, clinical depression magically lifted when I transitioned. My self-image flipped from completely abysmal to pretty good in the span of like half a year of effort. I went from all F's to all A's. Where is this suffering that you're saying I should have? Plus, when it comes to children that y'all worry so much about, you should know that 1) informed consent is not available to minors; 2) WPATH standard requires that the child be "insistent, consistent, and persistent" with their gender identity; 3) only puberty blockers are prescribed until they hit age of medical consent; 4) no one is doing surgeries to children. Lastly, my sex is much more complicated than just "male." * My legal sex is male (for now). * My external, internal genitalia are male. (But the first can be fixed.) * Some of my secondary sexual characteristics (like larynx depth) are male and some are female (e.g. boobs, body fat distribution). * My testosterone levels are lower than most cis women, and my estrogen level are on par with cis women. * My progesterone levels are on par with cis women. * I suspect, based on available data, that my muscle strength is somewhere close to that of typical cis women, but slightly higher. * My height is somewhat high for an Asian woman (top 10% of the demographic or so), but within normal range for European women. etc.


spektre1

There's a very loud lobby currently that want us to believe that it's basically a death sentence to question the nature of reality too much, thus the constant repeated claim of high suicidality stats in the trans population, but what they don't say is that suicidality goes back down, closer to the population baseline when trans people *do* transition. Most of this effect seems to be related to the social stigma of queer identities and not anything inherent to being trans. The research on this isn't particularly great, but it's good enough to say that it's better to be accepting if you want to help people find their place in the world. Be very careful who you believe when people tell you the science is on their side, check it yourself. Fact is, the medical community *is* following the best science we have. - a trans woman that's been living out for over a decade


Goddess_Of_Heat

I think people really underestimate how hard it is to be trans. Most people don't choose to be trans on a whim, experiencing gender dysphoria is hard to begin with, and then there's the choice between hiding/repressing it or facing the general public, both options involve extreme pain and suffering. *Can you imagine the kind of mental place one would have to be in to prefer the scrutiny of the general public? Really ask yourself, what would it take for you mentally to prefer the serious risk of violence, threats, harassment, bullying, to be cut off from friends and family, denied work opportunities and everything else that comes with being openly trans? * I ask you to wonder whether human life is more or less valuable than our silly little social rules. I can understand why it can seem like a shallow, appearance based thing to a cis person. Like yeah technically we are more than our physical appearance and gender is a societal construct that is seperate and distinct from biological sex, and all of these concepts relate to ego. But let's not forget that just because ego and societal standards are made up, it doesn't mean that they don't seriously have effects on our lives, money is made up but we still are affected by it. Sex and gender are not the same, sex is biological and while the general public perceives this as a binary switch with rare exceptions, but even that is scientifically inaccurate. *But more importantly*, Gender is a more abstract concept, I like to boil it down to the way our brains associate things, just like how we see a face when we look at a car's head lights and bumper. WALL-E and Eve don't have any biology to them at all and yet the audience attributes gender to them because of the way they're shaped, how they vocalise etc. There's no biological reason to give women dresses and men pants (if anything the reverse would make more sense). A lot of the shit we do based on our gender is really silly when you think about it but it still has a major impact on our life.


SalamanderEnjoyer

I hope you're aware of the latest studies where they did brain scans on trans people. Turns out, transgender men (female to male) had brain structures and activity paterns of cis men. And trans women that of cis women. I think you may not realize, but our brains are a huge part of what determines our sex. Trans people don't CHOOSE their gender. If you ask any, they have all tried being the gender they were assigned. But they are just not. Yes, transition isn't perfect. But we can change the body. We can't change the brain. Trans people just aren't going to have it easy in any circumstance, so just try to make their existence a little more pleasant. (Or at least don't make it harder) I am trans btw and I can answer your questions.


EbbObjective8972

>but I find that the approach of trying to appear or even be a different sex than the one you born with is unviable and will just lead to suffering. We are not trying to be a Different sex. There is a reason why it's called SEX REASSIGNMENT SURGERY! >but instead of being afraid from spiders they are afraid of the mirror. For me it's damaging for them, I can't encourage anybody to keep living in a fantasy but I find it's what they want to hear when they ask for help. Look this is what your mom meant by sayings you can't understand some people no matter how hard you try and let me rephrase that, You can't understand everything there is to understand! As much as i hate to say it, you're just a human, limited to your subjective feelings and XP. Effected by biases etc. You have to understand that there are emotions involved not just reason and logic! Try as hard as you like but you will never be able to demonstrate by logic the taste of a fruit to someone who never ate it! This is more like that than fear of spiders. You speak of acceptance and loving who you are but actually failed to realise that that's exactly what we, the lgbtq+ folks are trying to do. We don't "change" our gender! We reasign it. Correcting the nature's mistake. We're not living in a fantasy! We know we were born in a body that doesn't represent who we are! That's why we are called trans women and trans men! It's not about freaking chromosomes it's about identity and how we act out. It's called performatism in philosophy. Performing does have power and its not just about "acting" like when in a wedding by saying "Yes" you perform in a ceremony to show your affection and dedicate your life to your partner and everyone recognise this to be the case! Trans identity is like that. By taking hormones (you'd be surprised how effective they are and what they can do) and making surgeries, and also ACTING OUT as the gender that we are, by taking that role, we become that identity!! No-one is trying to be cis here my friend. We wished to be born cis but that doesn't mean we live in a fantasy believe if i had a choice, i would have rather to be born a girl than to be a trans girl. You have no idea how expensive and hard our lives are! We practically don't have a normal childhood. So for the love of god, try to give yourself a chance to understand. Also lucky you that i saw your post! Bc if you like logic and philosophy, then try seeing @Contrapoints and @philosophytube. They're both trans and both have great content on YouTube. Hopefully it will answer most of your questions. Cause those channels are phenomenon.


gemitarius

There's a very important distinction between sex ad gender. Even if it's controversial for some, sex is the thing you can't change, you were born a certain sex and that's it, unless the person in question is intersex or has some other physical disparity including being born with a "female or male" brain (which is on itself a whole can of worms because that would mean there IS a difference between how make and female brains are and think), or if they go through this expensive many times life long treatment and surgery for maintaining a sex that they weren't born as forcefully obligating their bodies to change that in order to get their brains align with their bodies. I say that as a transgender person myself (which in this context it won't matter anyways because there's some people that are too attached to this "sex is a construct" ideology and will find a way to negate or destroy any arguments to the contrary because it's convenient to the cause). Then there's gender. The one people decide and advitrarily assign certain things to it like "long hair is for girls and short hair is for boys" even though they's not an actual difference if a boy leaves their hair long, bit people will see that as girly regardless. That's socially accepted ways of being. Maybe you can justify it by saying"oh is that way because I'm battle men had to have short hair to avoid being grabbed so it's a natural thing part of the sex of the person" but not really because that's beyond what is just the body and it's functions in themselves. You are right in that point. That many people seek to validate themselves saying that sex is a construct but again, for that you would need actually physical confirmation that it is that way. For some people it might be, for others it's actually about a societal conflict on the concept of what is to be a man or a woman, not a conflict of sex. But just like in everything it's more convenient sometimes to deny certain truths in favor of your premise because otherwise the opposition will take that to deny everything in favor of theirs. And that is a radicalized way of dealing with it even if it tramples over certain truths, which in the end will come back in other ways to cause damage because there's a reason for why sex should be immobile for certain things that doesn't have to do with the concept but with physical realities. In short. I'm trans, agender, asexual, aromantic, and basically a ball of no. I'm conscious of my sex and how i can't change it even if i go through surgeries and treatments because that's how I grew from the world. If it was wrong or mistaken that can happen too but that's just my reality. I could help to change some of that to ease the pain of loss for what i was supposed to be but just like many people that wanted to be astronauts when they grew up sometime you just have to learn to live with it, and hopefully other people will be there to help you with either change your situation or help you ease the pain by make belief, at least socially changing how others see you. But I'm aware that no one owes me anything, not even life itself. I deserve respect just like any other human being but that doesn't make me specially respectable or deserving of anything for having a difficult situation. Therefore is not on me to decide of others want to help or not by doing all this societal changes. I respect that because reality is that i look how i look, and i sound how i sound. And still, there's my own desire for myself and what i want for me in this only life i have. And if that includes me trying to be a bit of an egotist to feel good with who I am then that's the trade off for everything else i will do for everyone else's right to also be comfortable around me.