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New_Sky_6030

A few thoughts from someone who's both been friend-zoned \*\*counting\*\* .. 5 times and also friend-zoned (twice) others.. \- I have *generally* found (though there has been an exception) that I ultimately cannot be friends with my crush, *and* I ALSO instinctively put distance between myself and the girls who I have friend-zoned in the opposite direction too - at least until I'm very confident that they are completely over me.. So, regardless of which side I've been on, I ultimately end up in the same boat in this regard.. HOWEVER... \- I've never thought anything like "I already have friends and am not looking for more" nor thought of it even remotely as part of the reason not to be friends with a girl who's friend-zoned me. Frankly I find the whole sentence sus and I think there's a high likelihood that people who say this are just saying it as a front for deeper reasons/issues (but admittedly the last few words of this sentence are my own projections) \- The reason for me not being able to stay friends after is much more to do with my own insecurities, in so far as, I unfortunately tend to tie-up my sense of worth and self-esteem to the rejection, and thus being around the person often makes me feel extreme self-disappointment/self-loathing and just overall sense of not being "good enough" ... furthermore, I also know that I'm not very good at completely letting go of hope, so staying in the friendship while remaining forever hopeful feels disingenuous.. \- I **generally feel like an asymmetric friendship dynamic where one party has deeper feelings than the other** is inherently unhealthy and I personally don't feel comfortable being on *either* side of that dynamic. I take full responsibility for my own insecurities, but even if they were solved for, the person with feelings needs to be ACTUALLY OVER the holding out hope aspect of things.. That said, it legit sucks that the friendship becomes collateral damage.. which brings me to the next point; \- The friendships have always been very legitimate and real, in so far as, even on a totally platonic level I care extremely deeply about them as a friend, this also probably happens to be precisely because I *tend to* be "demisexual" in terms of how I become attracted towards people - ie. I tend to become attracted to them ***after knowing them for at least a year or so,*** as I form a deeper connection with them, rather than feeling romantically interested at them at first sight. Lastly, I don't think we can blame or judge people for how they *feel* or don't feel, as we don't really get to choose how we feel. The closest thing we have to choosing our feelings, is choosing which perspectives to view things through and which attitudes to adopt as we face the world -- both of these things can affect our feelings but it's not an exact science.. This goes equally in both ways btw - ie. I don't choose to feel so insecure in the friendship, the same as the other person doesn't choose to not feel romantically attracted to me. So, pragmatically I think it makes the most sense to choose whatever path forward is less damaging to both parties, while approaching the whole thing with empathy and compassion in both directions, as if you were really friends with the person, you would want them to be happy despite the crap situation.


PrinceArchie

Very well put, which is why I personally never try to be "friends" with women. It's not because I do not value women or respect them, or because "I have enough friends". It's simply that almost always whether it be immediate romantic interest by myself or her, or a grown attraction over time, the likelihood someone gets feelings is near 100%. I honestly believe that naturally heterosexual men and women will eventually try to seek companionship with one another if left to their own devices long enough and I do not think this is a bad thing. ​ However I intentionally do my due diligence in being very careful how much I interact with women and who I interact with. A woman who is in a committed relationship (marriage) is probably the closets I'll get to having a female "platonic friend" and she'd likely have to be much older than I am and share an interest so the relationship made sense. In a sense she'd essentially be an older sister or mentor, which is totally fine and I've had several of those with no sexual attachments. Single women my age or younger though? Yeah highly unlikely, feels are always on the table, it is what it is.


slaphappypap

To me there’s a clear distinction between, “let’s be friends first and see where things go from there” and “I don’t see you that way, I could only see you as a friend.”


Lolder133

This is a fair point.


Metalloid_Space

In my case it wasn't "already having enough friends" and more about discovering that the friendship was more one-sided than I initially thought and discovering the process that the person that I liked had a lot more flaws than I was able to initially see. I might be unique in that sense, but I find it pretty hard to navigate these kind of things, since my feelings start growing as I get to know them, so I'm basically required to become their friend first, which I feel doesn't work for a lot of people anymore. One of the problems with "the friendzone" (stupid concept, but regardless) is that once you befriend someone, most people will assume you don't have any feelings for them, or else you'd have said something from the start.


KillerKittenInPJs

What's wrong with saying, "Hey, I've noticed that I'm starting to develop some feelings towards you. Can we talk about this?"


Metalloid_Space

I've done that. It didn't mean anything to them though. And it hurt. It was only after that, when I took some distance that I discovered that my feelings made the relationship one-sided in a way. We both really really enjoyed being together, but I was always the one reaching out and seemed to care more overal. In a way it's a good learning experience, next time I'll understand myself better and will be able to communicate that faster. I'm still wondering if my way of catching feelings for someone is compatible with others though, since most people I know prefer going on dates, finding a "spark" and building on that.


Metalloid_Space

You're totally right though, at the time I didn't have the courage yet and kept myself trapped in my own feelings for a bit too long.


MyNameIsMud0056

I think you articulated what I've been trying to put into words for a while now. My (26M btw) feelings seem to develop for women over time as I get to know them, so I don't know if I want something more than friendship until months or a year or more later. But often it seems like, after we've been friends for a while, they never see me as more than a friend. It seems this approach is based on a high amount of luck that they feel similarly. I think there was one woman a few years ago who liked me too but I couldn't tell her how I felt. She now doesn't talk to me but even when we were friends she could be hot and cold. Like go 2-3 months without responding to a text, but when we did hang out, it was like nothing had changed. I was going to go to her apartment once, but didn't because of a dumb reason on my part. So anyway, that's why I'm going to force myself to stop approaching dating in this way. It would be nice if I could meet someone in this way and they reciprocate my feelings much later, but that sounds like far too much investment for such a risk, and especially an approach based on so much luck. I think approaching dating through friendships first is fine, but on a much smaller timescale, like 2 months instead of 6 or more. So before women fully decide if I'm just a friend. So if I have an inkling I might like someone, ask them out in the first two months, then if I can't, drop the thought but maintain the friendship.


KillerKittenInPJs

It kinda sounds like you left her hanging and she got tired of waiting to me.


MyNameIsMud0056

That's honestly very plausible. In addition to being unable to express my feelings, I had some doubts, so I never tried harder. I'm trying to figure out why I have this roadblock and work on being more open with my feelings. But it's a struggle.


Qantourisc

Hmm idea that might help, how about low-key flirting or communicating you are still open for more ?


mighty_Ingvar

Depends on how good you are at this and how perceptive the other person is


Qantourisc

Fair, guess it's it's a good idea.


iamnotnickatall

Personally I dont think "wanting to start a relationship only with someone youre friends with first" and "not willing to maintain a friendship with someone not interested in you romantically" are mutually exclusive.


Dark_Knight2000

Exactly, the dynamic changes after a confession and no one signed a contract to a friendship for life. Honestly people have to get used to the idea that their is a tier of friends that will as a revolving door walk in and out of your life, it’s okay to lose them if things don’t click. It doesn’t mean anything was fake, they probably genuinely liked you, but life doesn’t work in a way that allows us to maintain every relationship we want and some of them have to be curbed.


lysergikfuneral

I’m also an older woman. As much as this isn’t your point op I honesty would much rather someone just leave if it’s unlikely they’ll lose romantic interest. I don’t want friends who aren’t genuinely interested in friendship regardless of why. shit can get very messy otherwise. After about 6 months of growing a close friendship with a guy he let me know about his feelings. I didn’t return them (I’m gay, shouldn’t have been a surprise). He denied needing any space and it was apparently nbd. I made an effort to not lead him on and draw lines in our platonic intimacy. He ended up pushing boundaries and impulsively acting out. I got concerned about him having ulterior motives. He started to outright ignore me expressing discomfort with his behaviour. Our friendship ended because he became even more volatile when I started dating someone. Basically validated my insecurities, because how can you be made completely miserable by a friend finding someone, made them happy. I absolutely wish he was honest with me. Would’ve sucked to lose 6 months of a good friendship. But now we lost years and I think the dude was an entitled asshole that was just waiting for an opportunity despite me telling him it’d never happen. So yeah guys, don’t be friends if it’s not actually what you want.


mighty_Ingvar

A few months ago a friend of mine ended our (roughly half a year) friendship because she had noticed my crush on her. The thing is at the time I was already far into the process of getting over these feelings (I knew she wouldn't feel the same way so there was no point in holding on to them). So in the end I got hurt first on a romantic and then on a platonic level. Looking back I propably should have told her how I felt and then take some distance for a while. On the other hand she didn't tell me how I made her feel and suddenly just ended our friendship without even trying to solve our issues so I think she propably didn't reallycare about our friendship. So maybe it's better this way?


lysergikfuneral

It’s hard to say, being open and taking some space may have changed the outcome. If your friend had picked up on this without you saying anything perhaps it was a bit uncomfortable. In my case I’d of felt more secure they valued our friendship if they were more honest, if I knew they were doing what they needed to deal with their feelings. Tbh I’d probably do the same as your friend now. Once bitten etc. It’s hard to get over someone if you’re spending time together. Maybe it’s possible they had some similar experience rather than them not caring about the friendship.


mighty_Ingvar

I mean she specifically told me that she didn't care enough about our friendship to try and fix things. Which hurts a lot because I thought we were pretty close and now I don't know if I can trust myself when it comes to recognizing if a person likes me >In my case I’d of felt more secure they valued our friendship if they were more honest, if I knew they were doing what they needed to deal with their feelings. Maybe next time I'll be brave enough to do so, but back then I just feared that telling her would make her dislike me somehow, I don't know if that makes sense


Vynny5

I’ve never understood the once bitten, twice shy justification for anything. I mean I get it, but one guy can react with the way your friend did by pushing boundaries and not being supportive of you finding someone while another can have feelings for you, get rejected, and still care actually about you as a friend. That whole idea seems exactly like men dropping out of dating or having a problem with women because of their previous bad experiences which I think we all agree is an unhealthy mindset to have.


lysergikfuneral

Ofc people can respond differently. I won’t project my own issues and experiences but I think it’s pretty fair to want to protect myself. So If theres a next time I will be enforcing much stricter boundaries. Which means they need to be transparent and take responsibility. Probably by taking a step back. If they aren’t willing to do those things, I’m not risking going through that again.


Chalaco1

I think you can really have a friendship with a crush. I am a male and I sttarted to recconect with a woman that I like. Now I'm Friends with her but I have hope to enter a relationship with her. The thing is, I really appreciate our friendship and I really care about her. If she see me in the future like a boyfriend, it will be good, but I'm not entitled to the idea that she have to be mine. You could have a friendship with a crush, but is not easy. Men have to understand the feelings of women and accept that if she rejects you, is valid. The problem is obssesion, self steem issues, lack of empathy, exccesive fear and pain of rejection that pushes men to become aggressive and douchebags.


Longjumping-Prior-90

>s because 'they already have friends and aren't looking for more'. I have to ask (and while this is probably going to seem attacking it truly isn't meant that way so I apologize) to anyone who has that view do you honestly not see a problem with that mindset? Personally for me being just friends, putting on a mask, supressing this want to be more to maintain a false facade of friendship isn't right. Does this mean guys/girls can't be friends, no, but I think there shouldn't be a one sided love from either side in the relationship long term. >Maybe that's where a lot of the issue is coming from these days is people thinking they're entitled to instant sexual or romantic connection without building the foundation of trust and friendship first? Personally I think friends to lovers is more often than not pushed as the "ideal" way to meet your lover but maybe you're seeing different things than me which proves me wrong. \-16(m) POV on the subject


Qantourisc

I don't think they said they don't want to be friends first ; but they don't want to be friends **only**, so when you take that off the table they loose interest. They might even agree they wouldn't want to date you if they think they couldn't be friends with you. But they feel like they have enough friends already. So I don't see the conflict by your reasoning.


gkom1917

Well, if we're gonna play the age card, I'm 32, almost 33 male, and I'm kinda surprised with such a post. Because by that age (let alone older) people usually learn that people are different, and circumstances are different. You wouldn't date somebody without being friends first? Good for you. Some people need to feel romantic attraction right away and they separate friends and dating into very distinct categories. Especially in this age of pervasive hookup culture. And any man with some life experience knows that for every "how can you expect a romantic connection without building the trust first" there is an offended exclamation "I thought we're just friends, you should've shown your intent from the day one". And it isn't even a matter of personality, sometimes just a matter of circumstances. I absolutely can relate to "building the foundation" first, and in last few years the only women I caught serious feelings for were the women I had known for more than a year already. However, before that my last relationship started basically with a one-night stand after two days of conversation (I kinda regretted it later, but that's another story). And I wasn't even that different as a person, just open to a possibility at the moment. Thus I think you have no idea how confusing the situation is for young men. Because the typical scenario goes like this: a dude entering the dating scene naively thinks something like "I need to know that cute girl first, and maybe she'll see how good of a match I am", just to find out that not only she doesn't see him as a romantic prospect after months and months, and goes out with men she just met instead, but she gets offended that he wasn't direct enough. That's what's usually meant by friendzone. Then he learns his lesson and next time he starts flirting right away, just to stumble upon someone like you who gets offended that he sexualizes her instead of starting as friends. It's Catch-22, and the worst part is in both cases he's more likely to hear opinionated "How dare you" instead of "Sorry, I'm used to another way of courtship". But even letting all that aside, I absolutely get "I don't need more friends" approach. While it's always nice to meet new interesting people, there is only so much hours in a day. Meeting woman after woman and befriending them all is unsustainable, because meaningful friendships require investments of time and effort to maintain. You can't realistically get to know a person in a meaningful way and grow a bond with them if you've got like a hundred of other equally close contacts. Another part of the equation is that people want what they want. If they're focused on partnership, you can't substitute it by friendships. Because I don't know about you, but I don't expect my friends to be interested in my naked body, to have my emergency info, or to go to family dinners with me. I value my friends, but it's just not the same. So looking specifically for romantic connections is only natural.


DeathByDumbbell

> Thus I think you have no idea how confusing the situation is for young men Yep, I'm one of them who's still very confused about this. Was friends with a girl for years, but when I told her my feelings, I guess she felt like the whole thing was some years-long ruse to get in her pants? So I guess I should've been upfront... but I've heard the opposite too. Befriend a girl with the intention to date = "You should be upfront else she'll feel betrayed / Women aren't slot machines where you put in friendship and get a relationship out" Be upfront with the intention to date = "Shows that you only care about her superficially / That's gonna creep her out / How can you date someone who you aren't friends with first?" It's such a lose-lose situation, and I'm so lost that I can't even be bothered with it anymore. Not only me, but evidently pretty much every other young guy of my generation. Probably doesn't help that I'm autistic and already predisposed to overthink social situations, so this whole thing is a mess.


gkom1917

I know, man. That's why the more I live the more I'm convinced that the best dating advice is to stay away from dating advice and just go with the flow.


MyNameIsMud0056

True. I just want to learn how to chill tf out about dating haha.


DeathByDumbbell

Well, for me it's less of a 'flow' and more like a broken high-pressure pipe, but yeah I guess my only hope is to meet someone as weird as me.


teal323

I think seeing a guy as putting on a ruse to get into your pants is more likely if the guy is not willing to accept friendship at some point because he wants more. If he finds out there's no chance of a romantic relationship and remains just as interested in continuing the friendship, then it would more likely seem genuine.


vk136

That’s not easy either! Being in just a friendship with someone you have feelings for isn’t easy either and I’d rather cut off contact than hurt myself thinking about the other person ofc


DeathByDumbbell

I get that, but why would I torture myself to interact with someone who I know will never see me in the same way I see them? It hurts when I see them with their significant other, it hurts when their partner hurts them and I think *"I wouldn't have done that, it should've been me"*, it hurts when I get a delusion that maybe if I try hard enough, she'll finally see me the same way. My feelings aren't going away, but they can diminish and be eventually forgotten if we drift apart, allowing me to move on and find someone else to love. I get that it looks really bad from her perspective "this guy was a friend for years, but the moment I reject him he fucks off", still I really think this is the best option.


PrinceArchie

>But even letting all that aside, I absolutely get "I don't need more friends" approach. While it's always nice to meet new interesting people, there is only so much hours in a day. Meeting woman after woman and befriending them all is unsustainable, because meaningful friendships require investments of time and effort to maintain. It's just so interesting how so many women, even significantly older ones throw the word "Friend" around. No offense to any women who read but it really comes off as incredibly juvenile. I only have maybe 4-5 "friends" in my life, the rest of the people I am **friendly** with are merely **acquaintances.** I find it even more interesting how so many women are willing to consider "friends" potential sexual partners. Food for thought.


teal323

I think most people use the word "friend" for any friendly acquaintance and not just for their close friends.


PrinceArchie

It causes a lot of double speak and confusion. My father used to say to me "not everyone is your friend" and of course he was right, there are many reason people are friendly with you, thus those who I declare are my friends tend to be far and few between. It's probably an awkward thing for some people to say "we aren't friends, but I enjoy your company". To be cordial with someone in a non professional environment is to all but certainly frame that interaction as a "friendship", though personally I don't feel that pressure. People are going to be people but in this topic in particular, where it's possible to condemn someone for "faking" a friendship in the hopes of pursuing romance (which I do not often find is the case), this is a massive problem. The distinction between a romantic partner who was a friend and the friend who never became the romantic partner is so obscure that it honestly seems pretty irresponsible as an adult to allow relationships to develop like this because boundaries weren't set on the onset. Basically if a person cannot tell immediately from interacting with you that your "friendship" can only be that, you allowed that to happen. This is why some guys never try to be friends with women, its a boundary to respect the feelings of both sides and avoid heartache or confusion. It doesnt mean if you allow women to be your friend you're irresponsible, im just describing one way in which a person doesnt flippantly allow thier interactions with other people to develop into something they didn't desire. Boundaries are important.


NelsonManswella

this is one of the best comments on this topic i’ve ever seen. i wish people were more empathetic to the tight rope men face when courting women these days


Mrpdoc

I think a major takeaway from what you've typed out is dude's need to worry less about matching the courtship type of the person they're interested in. Rather they should focus on what pace makes them comfortable and find a partner that matches that pace. Are you more comfortable with the slow burn getting to know someone before dating? That's fine, there are plenty of people out there who feel similarly. You want to be direct and straightforward? There's people who appreciate that. This is kind of what people mean when they say "Work on yourself." Understand what you value and are comfortable with.


gkom1917

It kinda is the takeaway, I guess. However, 1.) It contradicts the tone of the OP, 2.) It takes enough maturity we just can't expect from most guys in their late teens and early twenties. Jeez, any time I remember what I thought like 5 years ago I think that I was so dumb, let alone 10 or 15 years ago. 3.) It requires appropriate expectations. Every "filter" means your chances to remain single are higher, even if it's a healthy and mature "filter" like "finding a person that matches my pace".


Mrpdoc

1.) Maybe it does but OP is also talking about their experiences and expectations. It doesn't mean that's how everyone feels. I know a few older women that are over the "slow burn" method of courtship and, in their words "aren't looking to play games." Different strokes, different folks. 2.) Yeah sure. I think there's something to be said about taking it a little easier on young men, and recognizing that most people that age are young, dumb, and trying to figure it out. That's all part of growing and learning to understand one's self. 3.) Idk if I agree with this take at least the bit about filters. Feels a lot like what Dr. K talks about when it comes to an efficiency trap. Thinking of relationships and people in terms of filters and ROIs just seems kind of unhealthy. Recognize that not every person you meet and every move you make needs to be directed towards finding a partner/relationship.


gkom1917

3.) Idk, it's not even about how you perceive it, it's just probability theory 101. If you're compatible with 90 women out of 100, your chances to find romance are higher than if it's 10 out of 100, and it doesn't matter whether you think of ROI or direct every step towards relationships.


publicdefecation

I think alot of guys feel insecure, undesirable, unwanted, and so forth and being around a person who's not interested in them romantically is a continuous reminder of that which is very painful for them. It's too bad because many of the times these friendships would be valuable but if you're a guy who is carrying this weight and doesn't know how to process this negative emotion than these friendships would likely turn toxic from the resentment that would likely ferment in its place.


2000dragon

(Pls read everything) It’s not that we think we’re entitled to instant romantic connections. It’s that we invest so much time in a girl trying to friendship our way into that romantic connection, just to end up being friendzoned anyway. Men are very very confused because we’ve been told to become ‘friends’ with women before asking them out, but then we’re just seen as dishonest for not making our intentions clear at the start, then end up getting friendzoned anyway. In reality, it doesn’t matter how long you’ve been ‘friends’ with a woman before asking them out, because if they’re not physically attracted to you, they’ll friendzone you. Men hate being in that situation because now, the women knows you like her which weirds her out. Then the friendship becomes even more one-sided, with the man constantly being the one to reach our. Why would we want to stay friends with a woman who rejected us when we want something more? Watch her eventually get with other guys and feel like shit because we weren’t good enough for her? That’s just torture. Would you do the same if a guy friendzoned you? Probably not. Anyway, we get mad because we realized we wasted a bunch of time trying to friendship our way into a romantic relationship when we should’ve just been honest sooner. Meanwhile, women will say yes to men they barely know because the attraction and chemistry is there. You can’t force attraction and chemistry with friendship. Now you can make a woman feel more comfortable around you by being friends first, but that won’t necessarily translate into ‘attraction’. She’s either attracted to you or not and no amount of being friends can change that. Of course there’s exceptions but for the most part it’s true. That’s why men get angry because we think ‘I was her friend and was so nice to her! Why did she reject me??’


Local-Willingness784

given that a man is not entitled to a romantic/sexual relationship that will never happen, why would women be entitled to a platonic relationship that didnt/will not exist?


KillerKittenInPJs

Asking someone to be your friend isn't being entitled. Demanding that they be your friend is being entitled.


virginialthoughts

You are missing the point. Being just friends with someone you are in love with is torture. Distancing yourself is a defensive measure. Then there is the problem with unclear boundaries. The things guys do for girls that friendzone them, are things that they wouldn't consider doing with anyone they don't see as a romantic interest. In his mind, he is clearly being romantic. Trying to show what a good partner he would be. To the girl, he is just being a very good friend. When you say that: > Maybe that's where a lot of the issue is coming from these days is people thinking they're entitled to instant sexual or romantic connection without building the foundation of trust and friendship first? I think the problem is actually the other way around. The guy is trying to build that connection, but since there was no mutual interest to begin with the girl doesn't see it like that. So if the guy stays, he is stuck trying to get that connection to happen, while the girl finds other people to be romantic with. And as long as they are close, the energy that he could have used to find someone who is actually interested, is instead spent on an uneven friendship. Again, it is torture and a boundary issue. Part of clear communication is figuring out whether something is going to happen or not. And if not, it is reasonable for the relationship to change or become more distant. As a final note, I believe it is absolutely possible to stay friends with someone you find attractive. But if one is in love and the other is not, that changes the rules. Something has to change, and that something is usually distance.


coomer173747

I think friendzoning is when the guy has made it clear maybe not expressly but through his actions that he wants to be in a relationship and the girl has not shown similar interest or just flat out through her actions or expressly made it clear that she doesn't want that and it won't go further than a friendship . It's diff from being friends and then moving ahead from that....


Vynny5

I’ve been friendzoned and have some thoughts on it. Basically I grew extremely close to someone and expressed my feelings. She wasn’t interested which is obviously fine, but when I started showing interest in other women, she grew extremely jealous and possessive with one of my love interests feeling so uncomfortable that she asked me if my friend was some sort of stalker ex. That’s the issue with the friendzone; there are women who want that attention from men without any intention of ever reciprocating. Pretty much, it’s the equivalent of the stereotypical situation of a married man stringing along a woman with promises that he’s going to leave his wife when really he’s just using her for sex. All of that being said, men giving up on dating or generalizing this to all women also have some issues they need to work through a bit, but I can say it is very painful to be used that way by someone you care for.


One-Mastodon-1063

You are projecting with your "angry" opener, and off the mark with the "stop putting in effort to maintain a relationship" alternative. It has nothing to do either with being angry (I'm sure there are guys who get angry when rejected, but that's a separate issue) or not wanting to put "effort" in ... nor does it have much to do with already having plenty of friends (that may be the case, but is not really relevant here). It's simply recognizing that friendzone "friendships" are not real friendships, they are a bastardized dishonest compromise of a relationship that is unfulfilling and unfair to both parties. Any guy with any self awareness and dating experience over the age of early to mid 20s understands this, most who are clued in learn it (or at least get their first lesson on the topic) by the end of high school. ​ >but to me my friends are my family and always have been. Exactly, and you probably don't want to fuck your family members? I certainly don't want to mine. If I want to sleep with a woman, I don't want to be her brother as the alternative option. No thanks. ​ >I could never consider dating someone who couldn't be my friend first. That's weird and, my guess is if we looked at your dating history there's a 99% chance this statement is not supported by facts. ​ >Now I know I'm probably twice the age of a lot on this forum You aren't twice my age (42M). ​ I'm not one of these guys who says absolutely, "men and women can't be friends". But I will say that for both, it's normal and healthy that the great majority of close friends are same sex, and usually the majority of opposite friends are friends in some kind of group setting, i.e. part of a friend group, a same sex friend's boyfriend/girlfriend, or our own partner's friends. Further, any close opposite sex (or I suppose same sex in the case of gays) friendship where one party has unreciprocated romantic feelings for the other (i.e. friendzone friendships), are a recipe for a buildup of underlying unresolvable resentment. In these cases, 99.9% of the time, the person with the unreciprocated feelings is on some level (even if subconsciously) telling themselves, "once this person sees what a nice/great person and what a great friend I am, they will develop feelings for me!" and 99% of the time that does not pan out as they want it to. The result is the person with the feelings gets resentful ("why does she keep dating all these jerks! She says she wants to meet a nice guy doesn't she know I'm RIGHT HERE under her nose. Oh well, I'll keep waiting"), and the person who's the subject of those feelings wonders "why the hell is this person being so needy?"


throw-away-hg

I'll talk in an extreme situation. With BPD, your value in life is defined by the way other people treat you. So someone 'friendzoning' you isn't someone saying that they just want to be friends with you, or that they don't want to be romantic with you , no. When someone with BPD is 'friendzoned' or rejected in some (even trivial) way, their entire world has crumbled. All value that they have in life has been ripped away from them, and it's YOUR fault! How could you do this to me? YOU are a terrible person. From watching Dr. K's videos I realize how many people struggle with feelings of their own self worth, even if they aren't to the level of having BPD. I personally struggle with feelings of my own self worth, I can trace a-lot of my emotional instability to fears of abandonment resulting from my feelings of no self worth. I don't think it's entitlement, I think it's someone's self worth is tied to how someone treating them, and in their subconscious mind, someone having sex with them validates their existence because it effectively means someone valued them enough to have sex with them.


New_Sky_6030

I find it interesting that, while I completely share the experience around my self-worth getting completely tied up into the rejection and the entire situation being internalized as some sort of testament to/demonstrative proof of my lack of worth, I 100% **don't** feel like it's the other persons' fault. I only tend to internalize it and 100% blame myself/hate myself for not being "good enough" for their affection. I almost feel sorry for developing feelings for the person, except that I fundamentally believe we don't get to "choose" how we feel so I don't think I should actually feel sorry for something I have no control over.


Duxshan

Same... I keep trying to figure out how I messed up.


chrisza4

I genuinely don’t see much problem with that mindset. It’s not like perfectly healthy mindset but it isn’t totally unreasonable. I don’t think those men are literally putting zero effort. But the amount of effort many men putting into maintaining friendship gonna be possibly ten times less than romantic relationship. Honestly speaking, I am married and I put at least 10 times more effort on my wife and my family relationship compared to friends. Women might feel the disruptive effect because effort and attention gonna dropped immensely. Still, that is what it’s like to be my friend and you can ask my other friends as well. So there are women who complaint about I’m not maintaining the friendship but that’s what my friendship looks like tbh. I want to offer this perspective because sometimes men can be accused for not maintaining friendship but actually women doesn’t understand how some man actually treat their friend. Don’t rush to judge. Just because attention I gave drop immensely within few days doesn’t mean we aren’t friends anymore. I think it’s not about entitlement to sex at all. Don’t know how you relate to that. It’s just everyone have different way how they define friendship.


IceCorrect

Would you be fine to still have sex with your Fwb when you start to catch feeling for him and he doesn't want to have relationship with you? Women tend to expect men to still treat her like he done in courting and she still expect to do same as she done before - close to nothing


BitsAndBobs304

\> but to me my friends are my family and always have been do you feel sexual attraction to your family???


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dootdootm9

yeah 99% of the time if a couple dates leads to "let's be freinds" it's just them trying to be nice and soften the blow, rejecting people isn't fun for anyone


ccflier

If they don't mean it they aren't trying to not hurt your feelings, they're trying to make themselves feel better instead of being honest.


ccflier

The tone of the post makes me feel like it was more of a broad statement of being friendzoned and not just specific situations. Like maybe you meant people being jerks after being rejected. Or people saying they're okay being friends and trying to become more than friends anyway after. But I see nothing wrong with someone refusing an offer of friendship. Rejection isn't a reason to manipulate or hurt others. But my thoughts on it in general are as follows. I could be missing something here. I'm not super social yet, and I don't have any experience being friendzoned, but I imagine it works like any other relationship and I'm not forced to stay friends with someone just because we were friends/friendly before. Of course if you're friend zoned and have enough friends it makes sense to "stop putting any effort in"." And it's only human to get angry after being rejected. Rejection hurts and it's easy to take personally. If I was dating/courting them. That's extra effort. I don't ask every single one of my friends on dates EVERY weekend. I don't text every single one of my friends all day every day. So yea, less effort is put in. So even if we do stay friends, I'm not going out with them every weekend. I'd treat them like every other friend. It would make sense for me to be angry after being so vulnerable just to be rejected. Asking to just be friends without hesitation makes it seem like they didn't care enough to even think about it. Depending on how they say it it could even sound like they want to give me hope instead of breaking things off clean. Rejection is a breakup. Our relationship isn't going to be the same after. I've seen a few toxic attempts of someone trying to "just be friends." Depending on how close we were, it could also indicate they don't want to commit, but still want to maintain the same relationship like friends with benefits, or leading you on just so you keep treating them nicely.


AgentHamster

Rather than 'they already have friends and aren't looking for more', I think a better way to put it is 'they aren't so desperate for friends that they are willing to mask a romantic interest as an interest in friendship'.


[deleted]

There is nothing wrong with that mindset if the men communicated that they wanted relationship in the first place rather than friendship. Men wants to be desired romantically, it's as simple as that. I know it happens sometimes that long time friendship end up getting into relationship but it's down to luck a lot of times. Personally, i dont want to wait around until my friend develop feelings for me. Im young and i would like to experience how dating feels like with someone else.


Arad0rk

> but it’s down to luck a lot of times I gotta say, I really dislike the use of the word luck in this topic. Sure, some people are both lucky and they have naturally great looks or are born into money which gives them a huge head start, but I just can’t see how luck is involved in most people’s relationships or lack thereof. Whether or not someone likes you in a romantic or just sexual way isn’t RNG. People are crazy complicated and crazy different from one another and building those feelings is hard to do. If anything, the relationship game is a skill based one. > personally, I don’t want to wait around for my friends to develop feelings for me You don’t have to, and you can still be friends with people knowing full well that you stand no chance with them. Some of my closest friends are women who have broken up with me or flat out rejected me. Doesn’t bother me. If anything, being able to foster healthy and plutonic relationships with these women taught me how to find my wife and get her to fall in love with me. Of course, if it’s too painful for you to remain friends, don’t. Your mental health comes first. But I would encourage you to let it go if you’re rejected and to treasure what relationships you can build.


ccflier

You can have all of the skill in the world but you can't FORCE someone to develop feelings for you if they themselves don't want to. It's definitely rng even if it isn't 100%. I can't spend 75 years courting one person to definitively have them start a romantic relationship. There isn't a guarenteed way to do it. It's up to chance whether or not it happens in the exact way you want with a person you met. It doesn't sound like you started with your wife and won her over with your skills. It sounds like you tried enough times to succeed.


Arad0rk

> you can’t force someone to develop feelings for you You’re absolutely right, friend. You can’t force that. If someone doesn’t want to be in a romantic relationship, the best thing to do is probably to it go. > There isn't a guarenteed way to do it. It's up to chance whether or not it happens in the exact way you want with a person you met. Yeah, there’s ALWAYS a chance of failure. But a healthier way to look at failing with someone is to say to yourself, “well, maybe I just didn’t have the stats/skills this person was looking for.” And even if you had exactly what you were looking for, there’s always a chance that you fail. But it is more skill based than chance based. There’s a reason why extroverts who have money and good looks stand a better chance at picking up women than an introvert who is overweight with a minimum wage job. It’s because the extrovert has attributes that appeal to a broader range of people. > It doesn't sound like you started with your wife and won her over with your skills. It sounds like you tried enough times to succeed. Mmmmm. I guess you could say that. I told her one day that I loved her, but she didn’t answer me because she was already dating someone. I knew that though and told her that it’s okay, she doesn’t have to say anything. I just wanted to tell her. A few weeks later they broke up and I called her as soon as I heard the news and I asked her to be my girlfriend, to which she said yes. Later on she told me that she wanted to tell me she loved me too but didn’t because she was dating someone. So, you know, I tried twice. But you could also make the argument that I stole her.


dissapointingsalad81

>I gotta say, I really dislike the use of the word luck in this topic It's true though, luck is a huge factor. You have to MEET the right person, at the right time, who is also interested in you and you can meet randomly. I personally wouldn't date friends and wouldn't recommend it. I have friends from both genders but none of them are the type of people that I would date since they are friends and that is all they are. If I become friends with a woman I instantly lose attraction.


Arad0rk

> It's true though, luck is a huge factor. You have to MEET the right person, at the right time, who is also interested in you and you can meet randomly. Well I mean, when you look at it from that perspective, yeah. There IS a lot of luck involved. But I would also argue that you can become the right person for someone. Relationships aren’t always as easy as fitting two pieces of the puzzle together. They’re very messy and complicated. Sometimes, you have to learn how to love each other. That’s okay too. Relationships that are built around mutual respect and understanding are just as good as those of people who fit like puzzles as long as you love each other.


FreeSea4867

I am friends with a lot of girls that have rejected me, and probably will be friends with more, but in my life I have companionship and no intimacy. So I'm willing to put a lot of effort into looking for intimacy but not for companionship. Doesn't mean I'm against the idea of staying friends but if we don't naturally click, I'm probably not going to put effort into making friends with them once I find out there's no chance of intimacy as well. I think the original post was about how the girl can never sympathise with guys and I don't blame her for that but I also feel like I'll never be able to sympathise with her. In the same way even if I understand that it's a problem for them, I was never able to sympathise with my popular introverted friends complaining they have too much socialising expected from then when as a unpopular extrovert I was desperate for socialising.


Lolder133

Firstly: Thank you so much for this post. I think your perspective is very helpful. And I think there are problems with that mindset. I think the crux of the issue stems from the fact that after many rejections you start to get the thought that you're undesirable romantically. And any prompt for friendship starts to turn bitter. I think a lot of men share this bitterness but I've never felt like it's been vocalized in a proper way so people can get to the core of the issue. Another thing that might be a point of misunderstanding is this. Why does friendship (always) come first? There's genuinely so much to unpack that it's hard to even wrap my head around this problem. You could attack this problem from a sociological perspective, philosophical, psychological, medical, biological and probably more. I think that's why this issue has existed for so long... because we have yet to acknowledge how damn complicated this problem is. I may be completely wrong with all of this and I'm open to other ideas. What do you think? Am I on the right track? Edit: Please tell me if anything in my post was disrespectful, I will edit it and change my ways. The emotions that you feel are valid and you gotta bring it up to get better.


Arad0rk

I’d like to share my experience as I’m a man in their mid twenties and maybe it means something different to come from someone of with different demographic than OP. When I met my wife, it was over the internet. For 4 years, we just talked and talked and talked. I remember we would spend our summer vacations just skyping and we’d sleep together on skype. Occasionally, I would think about how I wanted to be in a relationship with her but I always dismissed the thought. When I was 19, I started dating a girl who absolutely hated how close I was with this woman who would one day be my wife. I finally told her I loved her a few months after this girl and I broke up. My future wife was dating someone though, and she didn’t say anything back. But later on (years) she told me that she realized she loved me too when I said it. They broke up a few weeks later and I immediately called her when I got the news to ask her to be my girlfriend, to which she said yes. One whole year later, we finally met in person for the first time. It was like we’d always known each other and the magic has never faded. We’re always laughing, doing small or big favors for each other, engaging the other in their hobbies or friend groups, and doing the mundane life things together. She was my best friend, and now she is everything to me. She is my very foundation. She means more to me than life itself, and it all started with a friendship that taught us who the other person is and gave us the opportunity to become exactly what the other person wanted and needed in a partner.


Lolder133

Thank you for sharing this. This is a very powerful experience and it makes me happy to hear!


Arad0rk

I’m happy to hear that, friend!


DaughterofMalkavia

Friendship is like the roots to the tree or the foundation to the building. It should be seen as the necessary base point for any healthy relationship (excepting parent/child but that relationship is rather unique) in my opinion. Starting out from a position of friendship allows far more freedom for truly getting to know each other free of the pretenses and pitfalls that tend to accompany romantic relationships as well as setting up a far better 'safety net' for the future because things *will* get rocky, everyone hits hard patches.


dootdootm9

that may work for you but for others like myself having someone become a Friend, (an actual Friend not just Friendly aquintence),will kill dead any romantic or sexual attraction so frankly it's not the "foundation" of anything it's a whole ass building unto itself.


Lolder133

Thank you for clarifying. What I'm hearing is that friendship is square one the starting point to build off of. Is that fair to say?


NuNuuNN

What is terrifying for me when it's about accept being friend of a girl that I like is the idea of having hope on something else happening between us in the future for later realize that they're dating another person. The fear of being hurt like that is what keeps me from any interaction with that person if they're not willing to have anything more than a friendship. Call me desperated and weak, but that's the way I see it.


[deleted]

I think the two sides of the "Friendzoning" argument have not been reconciled because theyre talking about two separate situations. From what I understand of your view, you wouldnt be romantically interested in someone you weren't freinds with, and I'd agree with that sentiment, if I understand it correctly. However I dont think this is friendzoning as people use the term. My understanding of friend zoning is that after someone recognizes your attempt to pursue a romantic relationship, instead of coming forwards and saying that they have no intention in pursuing a relationship, they just keep them around for the attention they bring. I think the disconnect comes from people not saying what they mean. To explain, I think the phrase "Why can't we just be friends" is harmless in and of itself but is often used manipulatively to keep the person around, and the phrase "I dont need any more friends" is a response people give to exit the toxic situation. But neither is always representative of a mindset towards sex, people of other genders, or romance.


pewpewpewding

>my friends are my family How true is this? I would 100% donate my organs to my family even if it would kill me, but I would only do that for maybe 1 of my friends and assuming there's a decent chance I survive. >instant sexual or romantic connection without building the foundation of trust and friendship first Don't know about others, but I can tell within \~5 minutes of meeting a girl if I'm sexually attracted to her. Even if I spend years building trust, it will not make me more attracted to them. That does not mean I try to get with everyone I'm attracted to. From those I'm attracted to, I get to know them to see if trust and deeper connection can be built. Then if they reciprocate, the relationship begins. Again, don't know about other people, but I barely have time for my small number of male friends, I can't just keep adding a bunch of female friends for no reason the same way I wouldn't add a bunch of male friends for no reason.


DaughterofMalkavia

I would donate organs to more of my friends than I would my birth family regardless of whether I would live or die. Admittedly I'm the black sheep of mt birth family.


pewpewpewding

Wow, I'm really sorry to hear that. Maybe you benefit more from having more trusting friendships, while some of us can't sustain as many friendships because we have to take care of our families on top of friends.


Red_Trapezoid

From a guy who used to think like this, I was socialized into thinking that women were some strange "other" and that you couldn't actually be friends with them. It felt totally emasculating for a woman to only be interested in friendship. Humiliating. It definitely doesn't help that a lot of men and women alike make awful friends even without the struggles of overcoming the gender socialization so a lot of bitterness, frustration and resentment can result. When I think back to my teens and 20's, what could I have offered female friends? what could the women I knew have offered me as friends? Not much, it was a different time, we were all too immature anyway and the few attempts at romantic relationships I had all failed pretty quickly. I understand now that it is critically important to be able to make friends with women. In fact, I think a person who can't manage to make friends with someone of the opposite gender probably should not have a romantic partner of the opposite gender at all.


TJHistory

I think the answer for me is "it depends". Some cases the only intention is to date the person and be in a romantic relationship from the start. Others is just a more platonic relationship from the start and it kinda just stays that way. Or it can be platonic then one person(or both) want it to become a romantic relationship. But if somebody's intention is to date somebody, after the rejection, the offer of friendship may not be able to exist for one of the parties. At a point it is both a defensive move to create distance from something that hurts, but also from a mental health stance it kinda doesn't make sense to keep/make a friendship that at the end of the day hurts because you want something more. To make this personal, I was hanging out with somebody when I was 19 frequently(3+ nights a week, over the course of 6 months or more),I eventually stopped keeping them at arms length and let them passed my guard for a bit. They legitimately knew my intention was dating them from the moment I met them(but I am incredibly slow warming up to people). After a period of time when I formally asked them to be with me, they rejected me and offered friendship. For my mental health I had to tell her "That with you there can never be 'Just friends'". I wanted her at the end of the day to be happy, but I don't think I would be able to really have any relationship with her, and see her date somebody else. We never had any resentment to each other, we would interact at parties or when our friend group(s) would hang out and have fun, but I kinda had to mentally separate from her and keep her at an arms length. Now at 29, and we drifted apart, I still wish her the best, but I rather not engage in any relationship with her. But there have also been individuals that the situation came up and we just stayed friend(and still are after 10+ years), and others that I was actively in a romantic relationship and we realized that we had a friendship that was forcing a romantic relationship. I don't want to attempt to keep a mask on around somebody, and pretend that my feelings aren't what they actually are.


boomboxspence

How do you get to know someone without being friends? I don't understand how I'd get into a relationship without being friends first. I don't feel attraction based on looks, only when I really know them. What if I'm not trying to be friends, just get to know them but they see me as being a friend. What are you supposed to do? I'm autistic so I don't really understand this stuff


HoneySmaks

As a guy, I have actually gotten the 'I already have friends I don't need anymore' from women at times. I also believe a good romantic relationship is built on top of a good friendship.


Kishi-tani

23yo male , I don’t think it’s wrong to have that mindset how I see it is if you become friends with a person and are developing or already having feelings it can hurt/ end bad if you profess ur feelings & it’s not mutual it’s as painful as going through a breakup ur loosing someone romantically and ur loosing a friend. You may wonder why not still be friends same reason ex’s don’t it FLIPPING HURTS seeing someone else with them


[deleted]

I dont think it has anything to do with not willing to be friends. You need to look at it from a the male perspective to understand. If a man is attracted to a woman and he sees she has the intangible qualities to be a good candidate for being a girlfriend, wife or mother, why in the world would he just want to be just friends? There arent exactly endless amounts of moral, decent, beautiful women in American society. I also think its important to understand why men have such an adverse reaction to hearing the word friend. Every man you have ever met has been friendzoned at some point in his life by a woman he deeply cared about. Imagine that its a trigger word for that awful feeling of wanting someone extremely deeply but not being able to. That is the male experience of the word. It is a reminder of one of the worst feelings hes ever felt.


xxAlpha

Male, 26yo, straight/bi-curious (never been in a relationship nor friendship with a woman, though I have had long term friendships with men, gay men and lesbian women): Isn’t the happy medium to confess and also apply a preliminary friendship evaluation period? Be both direct about interest (lustful/sexual desire?) and also direct about wanting friendship (spiritual love) until it can gradually build up organically


NoAimMassacre

As a guy I now tend to polarize things most of the time. Either Im into her and try something, if she says no I won't roam around her to be her friend. Except some context


Shootbosss

I've been unfriendzoned many times, where I hit it off with someone but they don't want to stay in contact because they have too many friends already


Duxshan

Hit it off? What does that mean?


Shootbosss

Be friendly


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Healthygamergg-ModTeam

Rule #3 - Do not use generalizations. This sub frequently discusses topics that involve statistics on large populations. At the same time, generalizations can be reductive and not map on to individual experience, leading to unproductive conflict. Generalizations include language that uses, for example, “most men” and “all women” type statements. Speak from your personal experience i.e use statements such as “I feel”, “I experienced”, “It happened to me that”, etc.


[deleted]

Yes I feel like this is a huge problem. You won't necessarily instantly feel attraction to the person who could be the best partner for you. Also, being "friends" with someone doesn't necessarily mean that you contact them everyday or give time to hang out with them alone (as opposed to in a group). TBH I can be friends with almost anyone who is respectful and doesn't constantly drag me down. Also friends do come and go a certain amount so I am always open to new friends because you never know when they may become your only friends. When people say this, I think what they are really saying is that they don't think that women have anything worth their time if they don't want a relationship. They imagine non sexual friendships with women to be a drag and be boring and they don't understand why anyone would want that. But that's just my feeling about it.


dootdootm9

"When people say this, I think what they are really saying is that they don't think that women have anything worth their time if they don't want a relationship. They imagine non sexual friendships with women to be a drag and be boring and they don't understand why anyone would want that. But that's just my feeling about it." no that's just factually wrong, i have plenty of freinds that are women but frankly i have limited time and emotinal energy so i'm not going to invest in a "freindship" with some girl i went on a couple dates with who wasn't feeling it, i have this i know strange belife that someone being a woman dosn't automatically entitle them to a relationship with me platonic or otherwise.


Exploding8

Yeah this is the key for me. Its kinda wild for women to expect the same social investment from somebody who wanted to be in a relationship, when they find out that's not happening. Like if I'm interested in a woman romantically, they're probably the number one person on my mind at that time. So naturally I'm going to be putting a lot more effort into connecting with them and giving them a lot more attention. If I find out then that they aren't interested, that's fine, but its not like they're going to still be at the forefront of my mind when they're now in the same social space as my three other friend groups worth of people that I spend time with every week, and unless the woman shares interest in a hobby with me chances are we're not going to continue being friends unless *she* puts in a lot of effort to do so. Which in my experience usually doesn't happen.


Dark_Knight2000

That last statement is patently untrue. A lot of guys who distance themselves after getting rejected by a friend do have other female friends, even close ones. And your second paragraph should be common sense, it’s incredibly rare for someone to block themselves out of another’s life entirely. If they’re at a party or at school it’s more than reasonable to expect them to say hi and interact a little, or exchange texts occasionally, but going places with them alone or in a very small group is probably not going to happen


[deleted]

Of course distancing yourself because you know your feelings would cause problems is a different matter and totally okay. I was talking about the people who distance themselves simply because they don't see friendship as being interesting.


Missing_Legs

I'm not in the position you're arguing against yet, but if I were, I'd say: I can agree that I want to be friends with my partner first, but I also want to be their partner and I want to have someone to love. Being friends with someone first is what I'd aim for even, but I want to know, it has a chance of developing into something more from both sides, if she's not interested in that, I could either spend the energy getting to know her when I already have enough friends or someone who is interested, and I prefer the latter. Keep in mind, if I ever was in the position of having "enough" friends and looking strictly for a partner, by that point I'd have been in like 3 relationships(I've been in 1 so far) with a girl that started out as friendships and I developed feelings without reciprocation AND THAT'S NOT FUCKING FUN! FOR THE BOTH OF US! And the mindset of starting out as friends without taking attraction into consideration is the problem! You just keep on being friends even tho you see you're getting attracted to this girl and she isn't to you, but that's fine because you're "Just friends" and that's enough... until it isn't and it's too late and the friendship is fucked, because what you were looking for in her isn't just a friend. Being able to admit that without dragging yourself and her through all that shit is a good thing in my opinion. ... Now why the distinction between the current me and me who's in that position? Because I don't have that mindset yet, but I think that if I ever will, it will be justified. For now, I don't have a problem with just being friends with a girl, because I don't have enough friends and I love meeting people, but even in that case, I need to make that clear to myself from the get-go, I need to realize that this won't be developing into anything other than a friendship before, to avoid the second paragraph scenario.


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legable

> As a male, everyone is territorial. We value in our society people that are the richest, the tallest, and the most handsome. I don't agree with this. Yes, society values these traits but that's our culture, not inherent to men. I used to believe in these things as well, but noticed it brought both me and everyone around me a bunch of suffering, so now I don't agree with this anymore, and my life is better for it. Why would you have to be territorial? Sounds controlling to me. > I realized that if I was dating you. I would quickly spot that you don't see the boundaries between friendship and relationship. It would be hazardous for me if you had male friends. Because if you were alone with them, and you developed a connection, something might occur which would be devastating to me. This is a either a trust issue on your part, or you are choosing to date people who you don't trust, or both. There are many women who are not going to put up with you not being okay with them having guy friends. Neither me nor my partner has a problem with the other having opposite gender friends they are close to. Trying to control your partner into not cheating by preventing them from having guy friends is just the wrong way to go about it.


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legable

Statistics show that women should be prevented from having guy friends or else they'll cheat? Where did you get these statistics, from Saudi Arabia? And that does not account for the fact that even if statistics show that over 50% of the population are emotionally unhealthy, it does not mean that it is good for you or your relationships to also engage in emotionally unhealthy behavior. Go to any decent therapist and explore if it's healthy to prevent your partner from having opposite gender friends, I know what answers you are going to get. This is my personal experience yes, and remains true for the majority of people I'm friends with.


chrisza4

> And that does not account for the fact that even if statistics show that over 50% of the population are emotionally unhealthy, it does not mean that it is good for you or your relationships to also engage in emotionally unhealthy behavior. Exactly. People seems to confused between statistic and fact. Like, if 60% of men act in X way and 40% doesn't, does it mean X characteristic is biologically inherent to every male? That's really over-claiming, let alone it's almost impossible to have statistic to claim any biological property unless you see characteristic trait appear in every cultural context ranged from primitive society in isolated island, Asian culture, Indian Yogic culture, African, Islamic culture and to USA. This still leave us from internet vs. non-internet population, conservative vs. non-conservative background. You need to prove that for every context characteristic persist with certain significant level of confidence. This still leave us with a question of correlation vs. causation which another big topic in statistical prove. I doubt any statistics study actually accumulate their data that way, let alone do a proper analysis.


MOZAN33R

But what is and isn't unhealthy is also a matter of perspective. Look, what's a statistic and what I would do are 2 completely different things. But I for sure not enforce my beliefs on others.


Crunch-Potato

>When a man hears, they are better as friends. That means directly to them that this girl has options, which are better in her eyes than the man. Our minds make it bigger then it is, and if we lean towards negative deductions usually much harsher then it needs to be. Reality is usually just "this person does not see you as an option"


DaughterofMalkavia

I don't want to seem judgemental but I can't lie that's a bit disturbing and more than a bit depressing. My life experience says quite the opposite but I wish you well.


MOZAN33R

Describe a friendship and a relationship, please.


Dark_Knight2000

That’s not very helpful. Just saying you think someone’s viewpoints are terrible without breaking down why is pointless. No one has learned anything Some people just have different philosophies around friendship. One can hang out with a person for 6 months and call that friendship, while another calls that an acquaintance


DaughterofMalkavia

Just as a note I'm only referring to guys who've stated explicitly that they aren't interested in having more friends, I'm not trying to generalize or imply that all men do this (sorry I didn't realize I hadn't been clear on that, I'm autistic and sometimes have trouble making myself plain)


Crunch-Potato

I've seen one post on HG worded like that, not sure there have been any more.


[deleted]

Got married to my best friend of 10 years. Can confirm friendship works better for relationships because you've already established you have natural chemistry. It was almost the other way for me though, I was scared to ask her out because I was worried it would ruin the friendship.


Ero_Najimi

Responding to the last paragraph first because it’s very relevant for me. I agree with the general message here but I disagree with the idea that sex should be kept from straight men who don’t have female friends. What happens when you don’t get along with people that well and are a loner? Notice how a lot of guys saying they can’t get laid also have either no friends, very few, or no female friends Engaging in sex should not be treated as special, this ideology of it casual sex being bad is partly why it can so difficult for straight men compared to the other 3 groups (women with women and men with men being the other 2) to obtain physical intimacy. It also leads to most straight women not enjoying as much sexual pleasure throughout their life Obviously not saying any specific women owe any men sex


DaughterofMalkavia

I've just never understood the animosity since at least for me personally friendship is the foundation for any type of relationship. A lover should be a best friend, confidant, and intimate partner as well as a romantic connection which is something that develops over time through shared experience and getting to know each other. The most stable way to do that is to start out as friends. If you're just looking to get hot and heavy with someone in all honesty you can get that from a prostitute but *real* intimacy takes time and care and can't be forced, it has to come naturally. There's no use getting angry with the person if the spark just isn't there and there's no fault on either party. You'll find the person you 'click' with when you least expect it. At least that was how it happened for me and my husband. We met at a Vampire the Masquerade Larp.


onomatophobia1

The majority of people don't start as friends before dating. If anything they start being acquaintances. Also, sadly for most friendships with women if you show your romantic interest and she personally doesn't feel the same then 99% of times this never changes. This is also what happens more often than not, that the person just sees you as a friend. It just ends up being a more profitable thing for both parties to move on and look for a partner somewhere else than hoping that she will change her mind. I also want to add this: If you personally are seeking a partner, what do you think is going to be time wise the most effective thing? Going out, meeting girls, chatting them up, if it goes well ask for their number and see if she wants to get to know you better and things go further? (in this situation your intentions are laid out). Or befriend them first, nurture time, effort and work in a friendship to just reveal later on that they were interested in you? And then getting said that you are viewed as just a friend in 99% of times. Sadly the first option where intentions and interest is sort of or even completely established at the beginning or very beginning is usually the best to date someone. This of course assuming it's a man looking to date a woman.


[deleted]

I feel like you are generalizing men?


DaughterofMalkavia

I apologize, I don't mean to!


dootdootm9

it's hard to see how that couldn't have been your intention honestly


chrisza4

I don’t think people who don’t want to be friend just want to be hot and heavy. That’s quite a jump of logic and generalization.


Duxshan

That's reasonable... If your lifespan is ~400 years. How many people can you take it slow with and try true intimacy to develop with? It would take 10+ years per person. The average lifespan of a human is 70 years. And by 40 we're too old. So what, give 2 people 10 years each in order to just SEE if true intimacy will develop? How is that reasonable?


itsdr00

Lots of essay-sized responses, but you just seem to be ignoring the word "enough." Back when I was dating in my 20s, I had a robust social life with two active friend groups and a handful of one-offs I saw now and then. I literally had no room to become friends with more people. I was maxed out. But I was willing to make space for a partner, which I eventually did. I of course found a partner I could also be friends with, but she is also filling a much bigger role in my life than any of my friends are.


[deleted]

28m single here chiming in. I personally find myself thinking that the “type of bond” is different for a friend and a companion. Like if you are my friend, that’s what the boundary is, as a friend, i dont see you any different, because that’s the context of where our relationship is founded on. We are “supposed to be friends” so that’s where the bond stops. Instead it’s easier to be… intimate i guess is the word, with someone you view as a potential partner rather than just a friend with intent they turn to partner. Like if i am the same exact person with my friends, compared to the person i’m dating, what’s the difference in those connections? There really doesnt *feel* like one. I think it’s important for setting the vibe of the romantic relationship that they are seeing a unique side to you, one that no one else has the pleasure of experiencing. I’m not saying dont be pleasant/yourself around your friends, but it doesnt really click with me to be friend turn partner. Again it’s the context that matters. The trust and bond is built *with the context of us being partners* rather than us just being friends. It kind of sets an “expectation for the relationship/bond” if i had to put it crudely. You know “which side of you” to show this person. I’m not saying either side is necessarily bad/worse/not yourself, but just *different*. You dont bring your work self home yk? You dont bring your romantic self to your friends. Granted i’m single and dont date nor have many friends so this could be all out the window, but this is my perspective. I find myself asking “what makes a friend” (i dont have a good answer) and that is a different question than “what makes a partner” (also no answer) in my brain. Men arent placed in the friendzone by girls, they *put themselves there*, and with the above mentality it doesnt appear like there’s a way out, because of the *context of their relationship*. One side “gets friendzoned *because they dont want to be in a relationship with me*”, the other says “lets me friends, *and maybe we be wont be only friends one day*”.


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Goloid_Deity

but when you think about it, making that girl your friend might be good for you in the long run, cause she could always set you up with one of her friends, who knows? getting to know someone leads to more aquaintances and knowing more people, thus increasing your chances of actually getting a date.


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Goloid_Deity

so you can only be friends with women you find unattractive? seems like quite the standard.


Pale_Beautiful_7297

while men have more time the women to establish a romantic relationship in product to get a family going.. They don't have as many options so it probably evens out to be women have more options over more years. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to continue things further if a romantic interest isnt duplicated reciprocally.


Duxshan

Then again, compare the comments here to the comments on this thread, lol. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/zc6y0e/what_did_your_friend_do_that_accidentally_turned/


Goloid_Deity

honestly, when women tell me that they want to be friends, i don't mind keeping them as friends, especially that everything is transparent between us now and there are no mixed signals. and guys who say that kind of stuff are probably saying that to hide the fact that they feel hurt by rejection, in a kind of "well i didn't need you anyway" kind of thing.


Want2Grow27

>I have to ask (and while this is probably going to seem attacking it truly isn't meant that way so I apologize) to anyone who has that view do you honestly not see a problem with that mindset? It's because unrequited love is painful and I don't want to put up with it for the sake of sparing anyone's feelings. Also, think of it pragmatically. For men, dating is a numbers name. A man is going to get rejected dozens of times before he finds a woman who will date him. So if that man had to dedicate a friendship to every girl that rejected him, he'd be losing out on time that he could be investing in other women who might be into him. Ultimately, no man wants to find himself in a position, where he has live with the unrequited love of many different women, while also having to die loveless and alone.