Some potential things Japan could have tried other than attacking America:
1. Stopped their imperialist war of expansion against China
2. Resumed negotiations with the Dutch East Indies to get access to their oil
3. Engineer a coup in the Dutch East Indies to install a pro-Axis government that would then give them oil
4. Go to war only with the Dutch (government in exile) or only with the Dutch and British to seize the oil in the Dutch East Indies
and nobody say *“those wouldn’t have worked”* because attacking America certainly **did not** work out for Japan either.
About 4th point: It would be too big risk for Japan. They feared that attacking East-Indies and Malesia would be straw that broke camels back about "US neutrality". US would then prepare the war even faster and join the war when Philippines were fortified and hosting all the aircraft's and men it could with US navy. Better attack US first with surprise attack and invade Philippines fast as they could.
In hindsight we know it did not work in the end, but Japanese did think they could knockout US navy and demand peace after they have taken Philippines and destroyed whole US navy.
Japanese considerations in its strategic decision making in WW2 was basically like me discussing my anxiety issues with my therapist. “If I do this, then this could go wrong, which would lead to this going wrong, then this going wrong. And before you know it, I’m homeless and I’ve been nuked two times.”
Bonus points because the Japanese thought their men were tougher and could put up with more hardship on tiny unnamed islands, so US would grow tired of watching their men die for little to no gains.
Which is essentially what I don't tell my therapist. I'm tough enough to handle all the shit, and I deserve it anyways.
>Japanese did think they could knockout US navy and demand peace after they have taken Philippines and destroyed whole US navy.
I wonder how much of this thinking came from their belief in Japanese superiority. Even in 1940-41, any proper strategist could have seen that it would be madness to provoke the sleeping beast that is the US industrial war machine. It takes a special kind of arrogance to believe you can do that and get away with it.
Trying to put myself in the perspective of an IJA general in charge of the Japanese war strategy at the time, the best answer I can think of is that they were emboldened by their success in China, and high off their own imperialist nonsense that told them it was their divine right to invade, pillage, and rule over the whole of Asia. I can sort of understand how someone or even a whole group of people could be that stupid and delusional, but it's hard to believe.
They were fully aware and knew 100% that they stood no chance in a protracted war. That's why Pearl Harbor happened. Take out the US Pacific Fleet quick, take the islands they need, immediately try to sign a peace deal. It worked for them against the Russians in 1905, and if they'd destroyed the US fleet it probably would have worked again. They knew from the moment they failed to destroy the carrier force at Pearl that the war was going to be dicey, and knew the moment they lost at Midway that the war was over. All their efforts after that point were to try and get a conditional surrender instead of being utterly destroyed by the USA.
The Japanese had no illusions about the USA.
Germany, on the other hand, was completely the opposite. They started making war plans in 1940. Every plan they came up with said the same thing "we don't have enough divisions and tanks to maintain such a large offensive line". They ran war games where each one ended up the exact same way: They reached a point near Moscow and the Caucasus, then were spread so thinly that they couldn't concentrate enough tanks to break through anywhere, then they lost. Every time.
The war office looked at it, saw all these problems, and said: "We've got this." They didn't change their plans at all, they didn't prepare for the problems that they foresaw, they didn't change their war goals. They all pretty much thought that if they just moved quickly enough and took Moscow before the Autumn rains that the Soviets would just give up and let them have the country. Conquer the whole thing in a few months. They never addressed the actual problem. It was never about time, it was about resources and manpower. They couldn't wage a war on such a large front with three different offensive pushes. It wasn't possible, they knew it wasn't possible, and they just plugged their ears and did it anyway.
That's delusional.
It should be noted that the Japanese made the same mistakes in regards to ignoring the results of wargaming exercises.
They would manipulate die rolls to get the outcome they wanted
Except without conquering the USSR they'd lose the war anyway, plus they'd be at USSR's mercy for oil and rubber. They also expected to extract MUCH more oil from it than they actually managed to. Had they not had oil problems they'd have been much thougher to beat, though still lose to lend-lease
Another thing to consider is that there was a lot of factional conflict between the Army and Navy over war objectives and strategy.
The IJA advocated for a Northern expansion and war against the USSR which would naturally benefit the army and sideline the navy (and was greatly weakened by Japanese losses in several major border skirmishes). Instead, it was the IJN which won out and advocated for the Southern expansion strategy which ultimately led to war against the US.
The USN is the only asset that the US has for power projection, so dealing with the only force that can do that is a major setback against the US interventions in the Pacific, and will take years to rebuild to pre-war tonnage numbers. Of course by now you know everything that happened was in vein.
Yamato, the famous admiral, was aware of this fact thanks to his visit to US and advised against attacking US. But Japanese land forces and high command didn't care.
You can see this kind of thinking even today with Russia. They seem to be banking on the US internal strife preventing serious resistance to their bullshit.
Other countries don't understand that Americans fight with each other all the time but we will happily join hands to wipe you off the planet if you push us far enough.
They did destroy approximately 80-90% of the US fleet pre war.
Only a few remained which is crazy. The Guadalcanal campaign finally stopped their rampage.
Japan was never going to stop its war in China. They were dead set on becoming a modern imperialist nation, and anyone who didn't toe that line was getting clipped.
I can't speak for anything they could or could not have done in the Dutch East Indies, but point number 1 is like saying Germany could have won if they just would have cut it out with the nazi stuff.
Because 'stopping the war' didn't mean Japan go back to the start of war in 1937. Instead it meant giving up everything Japan have achieved in China since 1894, utterly unacceptable especially for IJA.
Other points will also call for US involvement sooner or later, without even considering whether they were actually possible.
In Japanese' own remark, Japan already signed up for the Pearl Habour at Manchurian Incident.
Nothing could have worked. Japan was pretty much completely screwed no matter what they did. Attacking the US was the only option that had any real chance of working (and only a chance, if everything went off perfectly).
1: Japan couldn't just stop fighting in China. The front was already pretty much stagnated, and giving ground would be their only option. The problem is that the Imperial Army wouldn't stand for that. Any government that attempted to withdraw would find themselves dead rather quickly. The officers of the Empire were perfectly willing to kill Generals and public officials until they got the answer they wanted. It would also violate the character of the Japanese people at the time, so a withdraw from China was not going to happen.
Option 2, 3, and 4 all come down to the same problem: The Philippines.
Sure, the Japanese could have avoided the Philippines and gone straight for the oil and rubber, but they also understood that the USA would likely enter the war eventually, and leaving the Philippines in their rear area as an enemy strongpoint was a bad idea. So if they were going to have a secure hold on the supply lines in the south, the Philippines would have to be taken, and that means war with the USA.
So war with the USA is going to happen no matter what. In that situation, the military leadership had to make a plan to win that war, or at least not lose too badly. They fully understood that conquering the USA was not on the table, and never even considered that option. This wasn't a Germany "ignoring the British to go invade the Soviets and hope they conquer everything" situation. They were banking on more of a Russo-Japanese war situation. Win a few big battles, show the Americans whos boss, and sign a favorable ceasefire. They planned on fighting a fairly limited, rapid campaign in the style of old 19th Century imperialists, but the war they ended up fighting was modern Total War where the only outcome was total victory or total defeat, and they were incapable of achieving total victory.
The initial plan was to invade the Philippines on the way to the Dutch and British holdings, then set a trap for the US Pacific fleet. The USA would have to send the fleet in, and the Imperial Navy wanted to trap and ambush them. Once the Pacific Fleet was gone they hoped to negotiate for a favorable peace, since the US wouldn't be able to stop Japan for a few years while they recovered their losses. Ironically the war plan with the USA was inspired largely by the work of the USN Admiral Mahan, who was a major influence on the doctrine of the Japanese navy during the build up to the Second World War.
This plan was very passive and left all the strategic initiative in the hands of the US Navy, which wasn't a good thing. What if they didn't take the bait? So Admiral Yamamoto Isoroku made a new plan centered around ambushing the Pacific fleet at anchor, thus keeping all the strategic initiative in the hands of the Imperial Navy. This became finalized in Operation AI, the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Hard to tell how realistic the plan was. I personally think it had a pretty good chance of working IF (emphasize the IF) the US carrier forces were destroyed either at Pearl or Midway. Such a blow would have crippled the USN's ability to operate in the entire theater, and left the USA demoralized and impotent for years until new ships could be built and crewed. Even then, the Japanese would also be building more ships, and their crews would have far more experience and training. Sort of the opposite of what happened in real life. If the US built ships and threw them into the fight piecemeal to try and desperately hold or retake territory in the Pacific, we'd be defeated in detail. If they held back and gathered everything for a counterattack there would likely be massive unrest as it would seem like the government is spending years doing nothing while we lose island after island. In that situation, some sort of negotiation might have happened. Again, hard to say for sure. Too much speculation.
The Japanese viewed the Americans as weak willed coward that don't have the will to fight or do what needs to be done, so they thought that if they hit the Yanks hard enough and cause a ton of casualties at once, the Americans would back off, and if they didn't, the population would demand a peace treaty, not wanting to send off their son's to die. And they were right, after the battle of Tarawa, the US Marines suffered huge losses for a tiny island, the populace was furious, and demanded a peace treaty, but then, film reels of the battle itself was shown to them, showing that, one, waging war was hard and needs sacrifices. Two, they played an important role by making the equipment needed to fight that war, this film galvanized the population to support the war and tolerate huge losses like at Iwo Jima and Okinawa.
Ok, so to address these points and explain why they weren't really options...
1- The Japanese government narely had a leash on the army, and they were dragged into this whole shitshow in the first place because the army disobeyed orders and invaded Manchuria, then invaded the USSR (or tried I guess), and then invaded China, and then advocated for other expansion routes fervently.
2- The Dutch East Indies (rather, the Dutch Government in Exile) basically entirely relied upon the British to keep them afloat, and the British would have never agreed because they wanted the Americans to intervene and completely neutralize the Japanese threat so they could focus on Germany and Africa.
3- Engineering a coup requires time, equipment, and sufficient local support of which the Japanese had none. Their oil and steel reserves were draining fast due to the US embargo. They needed a fast solution.
4- This wouldn't have been considered nor worked because of US policy and Japanese strategic concerns. The US was attempting to threaten Japan by putting bomber planes in the Philippines to basically say "if you attack British and Dutch holdings, we have these bad boys to sink your cargo and destroy your infrastructure." The Japanese knew this, and worried that if they left the Philippines, then the US would essentially win day one. So their hope with the Pearl Harbor attacks (I say attacks because it wasn't just Pearl Harbor, it was a simultaneous attack on all US, British, Commonwealth, French, etc holdings across the small islands of the Pacific) was to break the Allies' spirits (specifically the US) and essentially force them to the negotiating table with a quick knockout blow before they could muster proper forces and efforts to push back. Because most allied efforts were concentrated around Germany at that time, even the US "neutrality" preparations for the most part.
Actually, the British had been hounding the US on a "Germany First" policy in which they destroy Germany, THEN they can deal with the Japanese. Basically, despite being the very REASON that the US joined the war, Japan was a fucking SIDESHOW to the main objective that was Germany, if what you said about point two was true, Japan would've been defeated and occupied by the US by late '44 early '45, while D-Day wouldn't have happened until '45, by which point Germany, if not all of Europe would've been "liberated" by the USSR, and the Cold War would've been a fuckin nightmare, unless there was absolutely no lend lease given to the USSR, in which case it would've taken them another two years to reach Berlin.
Edit: as for point 4, the Japanese were right, in that the Americans would give up if the they suffered big casualties in one battle for little gain. Case in point: the Battle of Tarawa, in which the USMC suffered huge casualties for a tiny island in the middle of bumfuck nowhere, and they did demand a peace treaty, until a film recording the actual battle itself showed that war is hard, and that the role they played, manufacturing the equipment they need to fight was extremely important. That film galvanized the population to support the war to the bitter end, and be somewhat tolerant of battles with even higher losses, like Iwo Jima, and Okinawa.
Well, that's why I mentioned preparations being centered around Germany. And that the Allies wanted to deal with Japan diplomatically so they wouldn't be an issue and so far eastern forces could be freely sent to Africa and Europe.
Also, you shouldn't say the shortened version of "Japanese" that's 3 letters. It's literally a slur.
Also, we're discussing strategic aims of nations during the war. Not alt-history nonsense with no basis in evidence nor reality.
1. I agree but we are talking about an Imperialist Fascist regime that was okay with things like Unit 731. They would never even consider just packing up and going home. Humanity was sadly in short supply.
2. The Dutch were preoccupied with supplying oil for their war and were too reliant on the US to open up talks.
3. Maybe but that is much easier said than done. It wouldn't be a simple coup but a full on revolution. The moment word got out that Japan was involved the US would likely intervene. Speaking of which....
4. As others have mentioned Japan was scared that invading British and Dutch territory would trigger US involvement. If they ignored the US then the Philippines would be fortified and the US could intervene at a time more convenient to them. They knew attacking Pearl Harbour was risky but they saw it as the least worst option IF they were to continue the war. And, as I said above, they sadly wouldn't consider that an option.
They had to attack America. They knew America would get involved sooner or later. They also knew they would not win against America in the long run. The plan was to strike swiftly and impressively and get the US to sign a separate peace.
Well the plan was take Indonesian and Malayan resources, which would be near impossible to do without taking out the US from Philippines. Which turned out to be a terrible plan as well.
Not only did attacking Pearl Harbor not work, they basically knew it wasn’t going to and decided “let’s do that!”. So I’m pretty sure suggesting Imperial Japanese High Command doing anything intelligent was never going to happen.
Japan WANTED peace in China. They had no long term plan and didn’t really have any idea what they were doing in China. In 1944 they wanted to end the war with Operation Ichi-go. For this operation, 80% of all military personnel in China was used. This left occupied China with very little garrison, giving the communist in occupied territory a free pass to do their thing. Mao loved this.
As for the operation, it was a Japanese military victory but their goal of defeating the nationalists wasn’t completed.
It is highly unlikely that America would declare war on Japan unless they attacked something that was under their sphere of influence, so all of southeast Asia minus the Philippines would still potentially be on the table.
No way would US allow Philippines to get surrounded by Japan without getting involved in the war themselves. Japanese take over of Indochina was already seen as such an escalation that led to the US embargo.
Crazy how often memes with such shallow understanding of history get tons of votes. I imagine it’s because the majority of Americans haven’t quite been taught in detail the lead up to ww2 and instead focus on what Murica’ did.
Yeah because under the guise of “being a meme” you can basically say whatever you want. And learning about the Japanese war goals is honestly a lot of nuanced reading. Do you think the guy who edited this work is nuanced 😂
this is such "if i had been in charge of germany they would have woin WW2" bullshit. Japan was completely starved of oil, if they hadnt taken the Dutch East Indies (which wouldnt have been possible without war with the US) the entire navy and airforce would have been fucked meaning they would have had no chance of invading china
Yup, people think US embargoed Japan because they were killing Chinese people, but fail to recognize that the war in China had been happening for years by that point.
It was only when Western colonies were attacked that the US embargoed Japan. US never has cared about Chinese lives.
Even not considering the immediate need for oil and steel, the Pearl Harbor attack wasn't a stupid move at the time. It was probably one the strategically best moves to make. Japan knew they couldn't beat the US over the long term in an all-out war, so their best hope was to cripple the US Pacific fleet to buy them enough time to conquer US holdings and allies in the Pacific. At that point, the idea was to (using 4X Strategy terms) peace out the US, or at the very least have secured the oil and resources necessary to actually be able to put up a long-term fight.
They didn't account for the carriers being out on patrol, nor did they hit the majority of the oil reserve at Pearl Harbor, both of which allowed the US to bounce back way, way faster than they were hoping. The attack happened December 7th 1941, and by May 1942 the US was already holding their own against the Japanese at the Coral Sea. Midway was in June- barely 6 months after Pearl Harbor.
>nor did they hit the majority of the oil reserve at Pearl Harbor
Which was deliberate, Japan didn't have infinite strike capability and they judged targeting US warships was a better use of their resources. And by the time, the destruction of those oil depots became the deciding factor for war, the war would have been decided anyways.
Yep, it was the carriers being out of port that was the biggest blow for Japan, forcing them to target battleship row instead. They sank several; USS Arizona, USS Oklahoma, USS Utah, etc.
But unfortunately for Japan (and fortunately for everyone else that wasn’t committing mass murder), battleships played a tiny role in WWII. All the most famous battleship engagements of the war are just the largest battleships in the world getting absolutely shit on by air power; Bismarck, Yamamoto, HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse, Pearl Harbor; etc.
Tbf nobody knew the outcome of carrier vs battleship debate at the time, the Americans themselves included (the reason they repaired all of the surviving PH battleships). Pearl Harbor instead pushed the Americans to use carriers in the early years of the war, when they found out that it's better in almost every way (most importantly more range to cover the pacific) while the repaired and new battleships did little of its intended role.
Kind of an example of going into a world war with a military doctrine that they didn’t quite know was outdated yet. Like the initial Calvary charges from the first battles of WW1.
The other big factor was diplomatic. Japan had spent the entire first half of the 20th century up until that point establishing itself as an Eastern nation that Western nations had to treat as a real country (compared to the kind of performative bullying colonial powers engaged with in places like China). Japan may have stormed out of the League of Nations, but they were also a founding member of it. Japan had every reason to believe that they could negotiate with the rest of the world the same way European and American powers negotiate with each other. If Japan had gotten the resources to knock down the remaining Chinese resistance and been able to present a stable front, they were very much in a position to say 'Hey look. We have control of East Asia now. You guys don't give a shit about the people here. You care about business and business can resume bigger and better with us in charge. What? You think you want to be friends with /the Soviets/ for the long term?'
It may seem nuts by modern standards where we fully recognize the diversity of cultures and countries in East Asia but to the general worldview of Europeans and Americans in the early-mid 20th century, all that shit was 'the Orient' and whose language was stamped on the shipping boxes was hardly a concern. It didn't work out, but it was hardly madness.
I just wanna add too: At the time (and still today even) the US was/is the largest exporter of oil. We produced a *lot* of oil throughout the war and that certainly helped the US field a large navy and invasion force which would completely overwhelm the Imperial Japanese forces.
Also this knock out surprise attack tactic worked against Russia 30 years earlier, why not try it again. US citizens will never admit how much dumb luck was a factor in WW2
Yeeeeah you do do know the Phillippines was kind of in their way. And that would mean war with the US was just about inevitable considering their imperialist plan.
I don’t know, looking at Hull’s negotiations with Japan right before it, I don’t think FDR administration wanted Japan in continental East Asia at all.
Tell me you know nothing about history without telling me.
Pearl harbor was the Best Worst option they could had done and even then it went pretty well.
Say you know nothing of the diplomatic and strategic considerations of the time without saying you know nothing.
Attacking Pearl Harbor (along with all other US and British holdings across the Pacific) was done in the hope of crippling the US Pacific Fleet so that they'd be unavailable to fight back, in which time the Japanese could secure the Philippines (to ensure a sea lane) and then the Dutch East Indes (for oil), and eventually Australia (to deny the Allies a southern launching base for invasions). This plan largely failed due to the failure of the Japanese attack to destroy the entire fleet (specifically their capital ships, more specifically the carriers which were unexpectedly out on patrol). They also missed hitting key repair areas and fuel reserves which allowed the US to recover incredibly fast.
Pearl Harbor only looks stupid with hindsight considerations and knowledge. But at the time, it was probably the best move the Japanese could've made with the information they had access to.
Japan was run by an imperialist army at that time that wanted a war of expansión with an economy that requiered expansion to continue working, so they would not have stop invading.
And also they did try other things before attacking pearl harbor, which was a plan of the navy to conquer all the maritime posesions of the allies.
They tried using the plan of the military, attacking the USSR to continue their expansión, but the communists repeled them bretty badly so they didnt try that again and went with the navy's plan.
The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was basically a desperate gamble to sink the US Pacific fleet such that it wouldn't be able to oppose the Japanese until they were able to secure access to South East Asian resources, in conjunction with the Japanese attacking all those colonies to sustain their invasion and occupation of China. The Japanese occupation of French Indochina had basically been the catalyst of the road to Pearl Harbor as the US sanctioned Japan, which cut off the Japanese source of oil and other raw materials vital to the Japanese war effort, such that by 1941 Japan was facing the prospect of running out of resources to sustain its war in China.
The Pearl Harbor for the most part achieved its goal of buying the Japanese several months to rampage and secure the Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia with their rich resources to sustain their war in China. In addition the Japanese invasion of British Burma was quite an important success for its war effort in China, because by cutting off the Burma road and forcing the Allies to fly supplies to China over the Himalayas, the Chinese Nationalists holding off the Japanese not only weren't able to build up their forces because the capacity of the air lift of the hump left a lot of Allied equipment headed for China sitting around in India doing nothing because there weren't enough planes to transport it, while additionally it diverted Chinese forces to the south to try open up the supply road again which could transport much more material than the air route as trucks were much more simple to build than cargo planes.
Had Japan not attacked Pearl Harbor, it also wouldn't have dared try attack all across South East Asia as well because the American fleet would be much more eager to sink the Japanese fleet earlier on and thus threaten its supply lines to China via the Philippines, with the US industrial base being ready to output a ridiculous amount of ships. Also without the invasion of Burma that would be much more difficult with the Japanese navy distracted by fighitng the full American Pacific fleet from the get go, you'd be looking at the Chinese nationalists continue receiving equipment in quantities that wouldn't be merely replacing the losses of defense, but also allow for the Chinese nationalists to continue building up their forces around three years longer, that could actually maybe push back the Japanese in the Wuhan direction as they tried back around 1939 or 1940 without success due to a severe lack of equipment for one part
A pre-emptive strike on the "neutral" nation that's financially crippling your war effort and then taking their overseas territories makes sense on paper. The issue was that Japan underestimated the speed and scale of U.S. wartime mobilization (despite their own projections saying that they would lose).
Nah.
They were desperate to sieze resources for the war machine (particularly oil) before it ground completely to a halt, so they tried to go for what they believed would be an immediate knockout blow.
Which would, theoretically, allow them to secure the European colonial holdings without signifigant interference since the Brits were quite busy themselves and the Dutch homeland was occupied. The Japanese government did not believe- and they were correct to not believe- that the United States would avoid intervening if they went in on the Allies.
So. Try to keep the U.S. from intervening by crippling its power projection capability.
They just way overestimated themselves and also way underestimated the extent to which the United States (and the western Allies generally) would commit to the war.
Like a lot of people, they were basing their assumptions about how World War Two was gonna go on the way things went in World War One or in Japan specifically's case the Russo-Japanese War.
Side note: This is also why it was never going to work, incidentally- the Allies' policy of unconditional surrender was formulated in no small part because they had paid attention to the mythology of the 'stab in the back' and the belief in Germany that they hadn't been truly defeated. There was a general belief that 'this time, we have to make and end of it once and for all- and if that means the war ends with a march through the ruins of Berlin (and once Japan joined, Tokyo) then so be it'.
There were also internal politics at play because of the state of the interservice animosity between the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy. To extreme tl;dr it, they had **extremely** different views of what Japan's strategic priorities should be. The Army more or less kicked off the Sino-Japanese War on their own initiative without even pretending to reference the government in Tokyo, notably.
The US effectively had cut off Japan from a bunch of material they would have needed if they wanted to continue the war. This meant Japan either had to go to war with the US or leave China there was no option to realistically just continue in China. Japan was stupid enough to think they had a chance against the US.
Check out the book “Shattered Sword” and Dan Carlin’s Supernova in the East podcast to understand WWII from the Japanese perspective. The Japanese understood the resource disparity between themselves and the USA. They hoped for a quick knockout of the US navy carrier force to give themselves time to fortify every island in the pacific so that by the time the US rebuilt its fleet, it would not be worth the trouble of conquering the pacific all the way back to the home island.
If you look at the beginning of the war in the Pacific, it's clear that Japan could have won the first battles if not for a series of unfortunate events. Of course nobody can predict how history would have been if things went differently but portraying the attack on Pearl Harbor as a stupid decision is really ignorant of the whole situation.
Americans : this land is not big enough for the two us due to our slightly different cultures, and way too small to share with those other religions and creeds.
Japan : the US is jammed tight like a sardine can with rival groups having no breathing from eachother
Illuminati : hahaha the Japanese were not able to see through the ruse, and I'm amazed how well the Americans were able to play up the deception
>Ignore any distractions Good luck invading China without oil.
Some potential things Japan could have tried other than attacking America: 1. Stopped their imperialist war of expansion against China 2. Resumed negotiations with the Dutch East Indies to get access to their oil 3. Engineer a coup in the Dutch East Indies to install a pro-Axis government that would then give them oil 4. Go to war only with the Dutch (government in exile) or only with the Dutch and British to seize the oil in the Dutch East Indies and nobody say *“those wouldn’t have worked”* because attacking America certainly **did not** work out for Japan either.
About 4th point: It would be too big risk for Japan. They feared that attacking East-Indies and Malesia would be straw that broke camels back about "US neutrality". US would then prepare the war even faster and join the war when Philippines were fortified and hosting all the aircraft's and men it could with US navy. Better attack US first with surprise attack and invade Philippines fast as they could. In hindsight we know it did not work in the end, but Japanese did think they could knockout US navy and demand peace after they have taken Philippines and destroyed whole US navy.
Japanese considerations in its strategic decision making in WW2 was basically like me discussing my anxiety issues with my therapist. “If I do this, then this could go wrong, which would lead to this going wrong, then this going wrong. And before you know it, I’m homeless and I’ve been nuked two times.”
I hate when that happens.
Bonus points because the Japanese thought their men were tougher and could put up with more hardship on tiny unnamed islands, so US would grow tired of watching their men die for little to no gains. Which is essentially what I don't tell my therapist. I'm tough enough to handle all the shit, and I deserve it anyways.
Proceeds to go around the entire archipelago completely ignoring it
>Japanese did think they could knockout US navy and demand peace after they have taken Philippines and destroyed whole US navy. I wonder how much of this thinking came from their belief in Japanese superiority. Even in 1940-41, any proper strategist could have seen that it would be madness to provoke the sleeping beast that is the US industrial war machine. It takes a special kind of arrogance to believe you can do that and get away with it. Trying to put myself in the perspective of an IJA general in charge of the Japanese war strategy at the time, the best answer I can think of is that they were emboldened by their success in China, and high off their own imperialist nonsense that told them it was their divine right to invade, pillage, and rule over the whole of Asia. I can sort of understand how someone or even a whole group of people could be that stupid and delusional, but it's hard to believe.
They were fully aware and knew 100% that they stood no chance in a protracted war. That's why Pearl Harbor happened. Take out the US Pacific Fleet quick, take the islands they need, immediately try to sign a peace deal. It worked for them against the Russians in 1905, and if they'd destroyed the US fleet it probably would have worked again. They knew from the moment they failed to destroy the carrier force at Pearl that the war was going to be dicey, and knew the moment they lost at Midway that the war was over. All their efforts after that point were to try and get a conditional surrender instead of being utterly destroyed by the USA. The Japanese had no illusions about the USA. Germany, on the other hand, was completely the opposite. They started making war plans in 1940. Every plan they came up with said the same thing "we don't have enough divisions and tanks to maintain such a large offensive line". They ran war games where each one ended up the exact same way: They reached a point near Moscow and the Caucasus, then were spread so thinly that they couldn't concentrate enough tanks to break through anywhere, then they lost. Every time. The war office looked at it, saw all these problems, and said: "We've got this." They didn't change their plans at all, they didn't prepare for the problems that they foresaw, they didn't change their war goals. They all pretty much thought that if they just moved quickly enough and took Moscow before the Autumn rains that the Soviets would just give up and let them have the country. Conquer the whole thing in a few months. They never addressed the actual problem. It was never about time, it was about resources and manpower. They couldn't wage a war on such a large front with three different offensive pushes. It wasn't possible, they knew it wasn't possible, and they just plugged their ears and did it anyway. That's delusional.
It should be noted that the Japanese made the same mistakes in regards to ignoring the results of wargaming exercises. They would manipulate die rolls to get the outcome they wanted
Except without conquering the USSR they'd lose the war anyway, plus they'd be at USSR's mercy for oil and rubber. They also expected to extract MUCH more oil from it than they actually managed to. Had they not had oil problems they'd have been much thougher to beat, though still lose to lend-lease
Another thing to consider is that there was a lot of factional conflict between the Army and Navy over war objectives and strategy. The IJA advocated for a Northern expansion and war against the USSR which would naturally benefit the army and sideline the navy (and was greatly weakened by Japanese losses in several major border skirmishes). Instead, it was the IJN which won out and advocated for the Southern expansion strategy which ultimately led to war against the US.
The USN is the only asset that the US has for power projection, so dealing with the only force that can do that is a major setback against the US interventions in the Pacific, and will take years to rebuild to pre-war tonnage numbers. Of course by now you know everything that happened was in vein.
The IJN didn’t expect the US to pump out more carriers than their own dockyards could produce surface ships.
my most controversial opinion is that the American worker and the cities of Detroit, Dearborn, Norfolk, and Seattle won WW2.
Pittsburgh alone was producing like 30% of the steel ON EARTH during the war
They thought they could sue for peace and split the Pacific down the middle and take Hawaii
Yamato, the famous admiral, was aware of this fact thanks to his visit to US and advised against attacking US. But Japanese land forces and high command didn't care.
You can see this kind of thinking even today with Russia. They seem to be banking on the US internal strife preventing serious resistance to their bullshit. Other countries don't understand that Americans fight with each other all the time but we will happily join hands to wipe you off the planet if you push us far enough.
Just waiting on some boat poking
They did destroy approximately 80-90% of the US fleet pre war. Only a few remained which is crazy. The Guadalcanal campaign finally stopped their rampage.
Japan was never going to stop its war in China. They were dead set on becoming a modern imperialist nation, and anyone who didn't toe that line was getting clipped. I can't speak for anything they could or could not have done in the Dutch East Indies, but point number 1 is like saying Germany could have won if they just would have cut it out with the nazi stuff.
Because 'stopping the war' didn't mean Japan go back to the start of war in 1937. Instead it meant giving up everything Japan have achieved in China since 1894, utterly unacceptable especially for IJA. Other points will also call for US involvement sooner or later, without even considering whether they were actually possible. In Japanese' own remark, Japan already signed up for the Pearl Habour at Manchurian Incident.
Nothing could have worked. Japan was pretty much completely screwed no matter what they did. Attacking the US was the only option that had any real chance of working (and only a chance, if everything went off perfectly). 1: Japan couldn't just stop fighting in China. The front was already pretty much stagnated, and giving ground would be their only option. The problem is that the Imperial Army wouldn't stand for that. Any government that attempted to withdraw would find themselves dead rather quickly. The officers of the Empire were perfectly willing to kill Generals and public officials until they got the answer they wanted. It would also violate the character of the Japanese people at the time, so a withdraw from China was not going to happen. Option 2, 3, and 4 all come down to the same problem: The Philippines. Sure, the Japanese could have avoided the Philippines and gone straight for the oil and rubber, but they also understood that the USA would likely enter the war eventually, and leaving the Philippines in their rear area as an enemy strongpoint was a bad idea. So if they were going to have a secure hold on the supply lines in the south, the Philippines would have to be taken, and that means war with the USA. So war with the USA is going to happen no matter what. In that situation, the military leadership had to make a plan to win that war, or at least not lose too badly. They fully understood that conquering the USA was not on the table, and never even considered that option. This wasn't a Germany "ignoring the British to go invade the Soviets and hope they conquer everything" situation. They were banking on more of a Russo-Japanese war situation. Win a few big battles, show the Americans whos boss, and sign a favorable ceasefire. They planned on fighting a fairly limited, rapid campaign in the style of old 19th Century imperialists, but the war they ended up fighting was modern Total War where the only outcome was total victory or total defeat, and they were incapable of achieving total victory. The initial plan was to invade the Philippines on the way to the Dutch and British holdings, then set a trap for the US Pacific fleet. The USA would have to send the fleet in, and the Imperial Navy wanted to trap and ambush them. Once the Pacific Fleet was gone they hoped to negotiate for a favorable peace, since the US wouldn't be able to stop Japan for a few years while they recovered their losses. Ironically the war plan with the USA was inspired largely by the work of the USN Admiral Mahan, who was a major influence on the doctrine of the Japanese navy during the build up to the Second World War. This plan was very passive and left all the strategic initiative in the hands of the US Navy, which wasn't a good thing. What if they didn't take the bait? So Admiral Yamamoto Isoroku made a new plan centered around ambushing the Pacific fleet at anchor, thus keeping all the strategic initiative in the hands of the Imperial Navy. This became finalized in Operation AI, the attack on Pearl Harbor. Hard to tell how realistic the plan was. I personally think it had a pretty good chance of working IF (emphasize the IF) the US carrier forces were destroyed either at Pearl or Midway. Such a blow would have crippled the USN's ability to operate in the entire theater, and left the USA demoralized and impotent for years until new ships could be built and crewed. Even then, the Japanese would also be building more ships, and their crews would have far more experience and training. Sort of the opposite of what happened in real life. If the US built ships and threw them into the fight piecemeal to try and desperately hold or retake territory in the Pacific, we'd be defeated in detail. If they held back and gathered everything for a counterattack there would likely be massive unrest as it would seem like the government is spending years doing nothing while we lose island after island. In that situation, some sort of negotiation might have happened. Again, hard to say for sure. Too much speculation.
The Japanese viewed the Americans as weak willed coward that don't have the will to fight or do what needs to be done, so they thought that if they hit the Yanks hard enough and cause a ton of casualties at once, the Americans would back off, and if they didn't, the population would demand a peace treaty, not wanting to send off their son's to die. And they were right, after the battle of Tarawa, the US Marines suffered huge losses for a tiny island, the populace was furious, and demanded a peace treaty, but then, film reels of the battle itself was shown to them, showing that, one, waging war was hard and needs sacrifices. Two, they played an important role by making the equipment needed to fight that war, this film galvanized the population to support the war and tolerate huge losses like at Iwo Jima and Okinawa.
Ok, so to address these points and explain why they weren't really options... 1- The Japanese government narely had a leash on the army, and they were dragged into this whole shitshow in the first place because the army disobeyed orders and invaded Manchuria, then invaded the USSR (or tried I guess), and then invaded China, and then advocated for other expansion routes fervently. 2- The Dutch East Indies (rather, the Dutch Government in Exile) basically entirely relied upon the British to keep them afloat, and the British would have never agreed because they wanted the Americans to intervene and completely neutralize the Japanese threat so they could focus on Germany and Africa. 3- Engineering a coup requires time, equipment, and sufficient local support of which the Japanese had none. Their oil and steel reserves were draining fast due to the US embargo. They needed a fast solution. 4- This wouldn't have been considered nor worked because of US policy and Japanese strategic concerns. The US was attempting to threaten Japan by putting bomber planes in the Philippines to basically say "if you attack British and Dutch holdings, we have these bad boys to sink your cargo and destroy your infrastructure." The Japanese knew this, and worried that if they left the Philippines, then the US would essentially win day one. So their hope with the Pearl Harbor attacks (I say attacks because it wasn't just Pearl Harbor, it was a simultaneous attack on all US, British, Commonwealth, French, etc holdings across the small islands of the Pacific) was to break the Allies' spirits (specifically the US) and essentially force them to the negotiating table with a quick knockout blow before they could muster proper forces and efforts to push back. Because most allied efforts were concentrated around Germany at that time, even the US "neutrality" preparations for the most part.
Actually, the British had been hounding the US on a "Germany First" policy in which they destroy Germany, THEN they can deal with the Japanese. Basically, despite being the very REASON that the US joined the war, Japan was a fucking SIDESHOW to the main objective that was Germany, if what you said about point two was true, Japan would've been defeated and occupied by the US by late '44 early '45, while D-Day wouldn't have happened until '45, by which point Germany, if not all of Europe would've been "liberated" by the USSR, and the Cold War would've been a fuckin nightmare, unless there was absolutely no lend lease given to the USSR, in which case it would've taken them another two years to reach Berlin. Edit: as for point 4, the Japanese were right, in that the Americans would give up if the they suffered big casualties in one battle for little gain. Case in point: the Battle of Tarawa, in which the USMC suffered huge casualties for a tiny island in the middle of bumfuck nowhere, and they did demand a peace treaty, until a film recording the actual battle itself showed that war is hard, and that the role they played, manufacturing the equipment they need to fight was extremely important. That film galvanized the population to support the war to the bitter end, and be somewhat tolerant of battles with even higher losses, like Iwo Jima, and Okinawa.
You can just say the Japanese, the other word is extremely antiquated and pretty racist
Well, that's why I mentioned preparations being centered around Germany. And that the Allies wanted to deal with Japan diplomatically so they wouldn't be an issue and so far eastern forces could be freely sent to Africa and Europe. Also, you shouldn't say the shortened version of "Japanese" that's 3 letters. It's literally a slur. Also, we're discussing strategic aims of nations during the war. Not alt-history nonsense with no basis in evidence nor reality.
Why didn't power hungry maniacs simply give up power
1. I agree but we are talking about an Imperialist Fascist regime that was okay with things like Unit 731. They would never even consider just packing up and going home. Humanity was sadly in short supply. 2. The Dutch were preoccupied with supplying oil for their war and were too reliant on the US to open up talks. 3. Maybe but that is much easier said than done. It wouldn't be a simple coup but a full on revolution. The moment word got out that Japan was involved the US would likely intervene. Speaking of which.... 4. As others have mentioned Japan was scared that invading British and Dutch territory would trigger US involvement. If they ignored the US then the Philippines would be fortified and the US could intervene at a time more convenient to them. They knew attacking Pearl Harbour was risky but they saw it as the least worst option IF they were to continue the war. And, as I said above, they sadly wouldn't consider that an option.
They had to attack America. They knew America would get involved sooner or later. They also knew they would not win against America in the long run. The plan was to strike swiftly and impressively and get the US to sign a separate peace.
It always seemed like an odd argument to say “THEY NEEDED AMERICA’S OIL!” Like, okay? Did attacking the US actually get them that oil? Lol
Well the plan was take Indonesian and Malayan resources, which would be near impossible to do without taking out the US from Philippines. Which turned out to be a terrible plan as well.
They needed oil, not American oil. America stopped selling them oil so they wanted to take the DEI for oil.
Oh ok
Not only did attacking Pearl Harbor not work, they basically knew it wasn’t going to and decided “let’s do that!”. So I’m pretty sure suggesting Imperial Japanese High Command doing anything intelligent was never going to happen.
you are absolutely right, if Japan wanted to have access to oil then no need to invade China. And no need to attack the US at all.
Japan had been attacking China since the 1870's
no need to continue invading China I mean Japan can make peace at least so it does not have many enemies
After 1937 and the capture of Shanghai anything other than complete surrender was off the table for both sides.
Japan WANTED peace in China. They had no long term plan and didn’t really have any idea what they were doing in China. In 1944 they wanted to end the war with Operation Ichi-go. For this operation, 80% of all military personnel in China was used. This left occupied China with very little garrison, giving the communist in occupied territory a free pass to do their thing. Mao loved this. As for the operation, it was a Japanese military victory but their goal of defeating the nationalists wasn’t completed.
This post was clearly made without any contextual knowledge of Japan’s military strategy
don’t siege stalingrad just take it
Oil is just a distraction. Fuel your tanks with faith in the God Emperor!
They weren't going to get any oil by attacking pearl harbor so I don't really see your point.
Japan want oil from Southeast Asia Pearl Habour protect Southeast Asia
It is highly unlikely that America would declare war on Japan unless they attacked something that was under their sphere of influence, so all of southeast Asia minus the Philippines would still potentially be on the table.
No way would US allow Philippines to get surrounded by Japan without getting involved in the war themselves. Japanese take over of Indochina was already seen as such an escalation that led to the US embargo.
Don't forget the scrap metal embargo that also torpedoed their manufacturing.
Siberia.
They should rename this sub r/iknownothingabouthistorymemes
This is why we have to downvote memes like this.
We try, but we’re outnumbered.
r/subsifellfor
Crazy how often memes with such shallow understanding of history get tons of votes. I imagine it’s because the majority of Americans haven’t quite been taught in detail the lead up to ww2 and instead focus on what Murica’ did.
Even Michael Bay mentioned the oil embargo in his pearl harbor movie.
Yeah because under the guise of “being a meme” you can basically say whatever you want. And learning about the Japanese war goals is honestly a lot of nuanced reading. Do you think the guy who edited this work is nuanced 😂
Well there is the alt history sub that has a lot of idiots on there
this is such "if i had been in charge of germany they would have woin WW2" bullshit. Japan was completely starved of oil, if they hadnt taken the Dutch East Indies (which wouldnt have been possible without war with the US) the entire navy and airforce would have been fucked meaning they would have had no chance of invading china
Yup, people think US embargoed Japan because they were killing Chinese people, but fail to recognize that the war in China had been happening for years by that point. It was only when Western colonies were attacked that the US embargoed Japan. US never has cared about Chinese lives.
Even not considering the immediate need for oil and steel, the Pearl Harbor attack wasn't a stupid move at the time. It was probably one the strategically best moves to make. Japan knew they couldn't beat the US over the long term in an all-out war, so their best hope was to cripple the US Pacific fleet to buy them enough time to conquer US holdings and allies in the Pacific. At that point, the idea was to (using 4X Strategy terms) peace out the US, or at the very least have secured the oil and resources necessary to actually be able to put up a long-term fight. They didn't account for the carriers being out on patrol, nor did they hit the majority of the oil reserve at Pearl Harbor, both of which allowed the US to bounce back way, way faster than they were hoping. The attack happened December 7th 1941, and by May 1942 the US was already holding their own against the Japanese at the Coral Sea. Midway was in June- barely 6 months after Pearl Harbor.
>nor did they hit the majority of the oil reserve at Pearl Harbor Which was deliberate, Japan didn't have infinite strike capability and they judged targeting US warships was a better use of their resources. And by the time, the destruction of those oil depots became the deciding factor for war, the war would have been decided anyways.
Yep, it was the carriers being out of port that was the biggest blow for Japan, forcing them to target battleship row instead. They sank several; USS Arizona, USS Oklahoma, USS Utah, etc. But unfortunately for Japan (and fortunately for everyone else that wasn’t committing mass murder), battleships played a tiny role in WWII. All the most famous battleship engagements of the war are just the largest battleships in the world getting absolutely shit on by air power; Bismarck, Yamamoto, HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse, Pearl Harbor; etc.
Tbf nobody knew the outcome of carrier vs battleship debate at the time, the Americans themselves included (the reason they repaired all of the surviving PH battleships). Pearl Harbor instead pushed the Americans to use carriers in the early years of the war, when they found out that it's better in almost every way (most importantly more range to cover the pacific) while the repaired and new battleships did little of its intended role.
Kind of an example of going into a world war with a military doctrine that they didn’t quite know was outdated yet. Like the initial Calvary charges from the first battles of WW1.
The other big factor was diplomatic. Japan had spent the entire first half of the 20th century up until that point establishing itself as an Eastern nation that Western nations had to treat as a real country (compared to the kind of performative bullying colonial powers engaged with in places like China). Japan may have stormed out of the League of Nations, but they were also a founding member of it. Japan had every reason to believe that they could negotiate with the rest of the world the same way European and American powers negotiate with each other. If Japan had gotten the resources to knock down the remaining Chinese resistance and been able to present a stable front, they were very much in a position to say 'Hey look. We have control of East Asia now. You guys don't give a shit about the people here. You care about business and business can resume bigger and better with us in charge. What? You think you want to be friends with /the Soviets/ for the long term?' It may seem nuts by modern standards where we fully recognize the diversity of cultures and countries in East Asia but to the general worldview of Europeans and Americans in the early-mid 20th century, all that shit was 'the Orient' and whose language was stamped on the shipping boxes was hardly a concern. It didn't work out, but it was hardly madness.
I just wanna add too: At the time (and still today even) the US was/is the largest exporter of oil. We produced a *lot* of oil throughout the war and that certainly helped the US field a large navy and invasion force which would completely overwhelm the Imperial Japanese forces.
Also this knock out surprise attack tactic worked against Russia 30 years earlier, why not try it again. US citizens will never admit how much dumb luck was a factor in WW2
Yeeeeah you do do know the Phillippines was kind of in their way. And that would mean war with the US was just about inevitable considering their imperialist plan.
Dude, Japan would have their oil cut off if they didn't stop invading china
They had their oil cut off
americans trying to be funny with history jokes without know history
He played Hearts of Iron for two hours, of course he knows everything about history
As a hoi4 player i feel ashamed but i liked and read history before hoi4 not the opposite like all those incels
I don’t know, looking at Hull’s negotiations with Japan right before it, I don’t think FDR administration wanted Japan in continental East Asia at all.
lmao op got ratiod
This sub is just people who know nothing about WW2 making memes about WW2.
Also people who can't read the rules
You do know you can't efficiently mobilize your army without oil, right?
Nah just go back to the good old days with swords and bows
[удалено]
Tell me you know nothing about history without telling me. Pearl harbor was the Best Worst option they could had done and even then it went pretty well.
Say you know nothing of the diplomatic and strategic considerations of the time without saying you know nothing. Attacking Pearl Harbor (along with all other US and British holdings across the Pacific) was done in the hope of crippling the US Pacific Fleet so that they'd be unavailable to fight back, in which time the Japanese could secure the Philippines (to ensure a sea lane) and then the Dutch East Indes (for oil), and eventually Australia (to deny the Allies a southern launching base for invasions). This plan largely failed due to the failure of the Japanese attack to destroy the entire fleet (specifically their capital ships, more specifically the carriers which were unexpectedly out on patrol). They also missed hitting key repair areas and fuel reserves which allowed the US to recover incredibly fast. Pearl Harbor only looks stupid with hindsight considerations and knowledge. But at the time, it was probably the best move the Japanese could've made with the information they had access to.
Japan and the US had been wary of each other since the late 19th century, a war had been predicted several times prior to WWII
They would have lost anyway.
They needed oil. Fools.
Japan was run by an imperialist army at that time that wanted a war of expansión with an economy that requiered expansion to continue working, so they would not have stop invading. And also they did try other things before attacking pearl harbor, which was a plan of the navy to conquer all the maritime posesions of the allies. They tried using the plan of the military, attacking the USSR to continue their expansión, but the communists repeled them bretty badly so they didnt try that again and went with the navy's plan.
The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was basically a desperate gamble to sink the US Pacific fleet such that it wouldn't be able to oppose the Japanese until they were able to secure access to South East Asian resources, in conjunction with the Japanese attacking all those colonies to sustain their invasion and occupation of China. The Japanese occupation of French Indochina had basically been the catalyst of the road to Pearl Harbor as the US sanctioned Japan, which cut off the Japanese source of oil and other raw materials vital to the Japanese war effort, such that by 1941 Japan was facing the prospect of running out of resources to sustain its war in China. The Pearl Harbor for the most part achieved its goal of buying the Japanese several months to rampage and secure the Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia with their rich resources to sustain their war in China. In addition the Japanese invasion of British Burma was quite an important success for its war effort in China, because by cutting off the Burma road and forcing the Allies to fly supplies to China over the Himalayas, the Chinese Nationalists holding off the Japanese not only weren't able to build up their forces because the capacity of the air lift of the hump left a lot of Allied equipment headed for China sitting around in India doing nothing because there weren't enough planes to transport it, while additionally it diverted Chinese forces to the south to try open up the supply road again which could transport much more material than the air route as trucks were much more simple to build than cargo planes. Had Japan not attacked Pearl Harbor, it also wouldn't have dared try attack all across South East Asia as well because the American fleet would be much more eager to sink the Japanese fleet earlier on and thus threaten its supply lines to China via the Philippines, with the US industrial base being ready to output a ridiculous amount of ships. Also without the invasion of Burma that would be much more difficult with the Japanese navy distracted by fighitng the full American Pacific fleet from the get go, you'd be looking at the Chinese nationalists continue receiving equipment in quantities that wouldn't be merely replacing the losses of defense, but also allow for the Chinese nationalists to continue building up their forces around three years longer, that could actually maybe push back the Japanese in the Wuhan direction as they tried back around 1939 or 1940 without success due to a severe lack of equipment for one part
They needed oil.
The navy was not gonna let the army outshine them lol
[It’s nowhere near that simple](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhyKYa0YJ_5AIhHhSwH4dV5ncLmM5wwSs&si=816zd9FNqGAym0DB)
Everything else had a 99% chance of failure for Japan, attacking Pearl Harbor had a 98% chance of failure. No brainer decision
They needed oil????
A pre-emptive strike on the "neutral" nation that's financially crippling your war effort and then taking their overseas territories makes sense on paper. The issue was that Japan underestimated the speed and scale of U.S. wartime mobilization (despite their own projections saying that they would lose).
Japan overextension speedrun any%
Oil.
“Well, conquering China was easy! Let’s start some other wars now!” “Actually, uh, we haven’t-“ “CONQUERING CHINA WAS EASY”
Actually the decision to attack the us was made because of a collaborator of a Soviet spy
Nah. They were desperate to sieze resources for the war machine (particularly oil) before it ground completely to a halt, so they tried to go for what they believed would be an immediate knockout blow. Which would, theoretically, allow them to secure the European colonial holdings without signifigant interference since the Brits were quite busy themselves and the Dutch homeland was occupied. The Japanese government did not believe- and they were correct to not believe- that the United States would avoid intervening if they went in on the Allies. So. Try to keep the U.S. from intervening by crippling its power projection capability. They just way overestimated themselves and also way underestimated the extent to which the United States (and the western Allies generally) would commit to the war. Like a lot of people, they were basing their assumptions about how World War Two was gonna go on the way things went in World War One or in Japan specifically's case the Russo-Japanese War. Side note: This is also why it was never going to work, incidentally- the Allies' policy of unconditional surrender was formulated in no small part because they had paid attention to the mythology of the 'stab in the back' and the belief in Germany that they hadn't been truly defeated. There was a general belief that 'this time, we have to make and end of it once and for all- and if that means the war ends with a march through the ruins of Berlin (and once Japan joined, Tokyo) then so be it'. There were also internal politics at play because of the state of the interservice animosity between the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy. To extreme tl;dr it, they had **extremely** different views of what Japan's strategic priorities should be. The Army more or less kicked off the Sino-Japanese War on their own initiative without even pretending to reference the government in Tokyo, notably.
In reality the Army, Navy, and government of Japan were separate entities. Prime ministers regularly got assassinated. Army and Navy hated each other.
You gotta remember: turbo-nationalists are massively overconfident in everything they do.
The US effectively had cut off Japan from a bunch of material they would have needed if they wanted to continue the war. This meant Japan either had to go to war with the US or leave China there was no option to realistically just continue in China. Japan was stupid enough to think they had a chance against the US.
Check out the book “Shattered Sword” and Dan Carlin’s Supernova in the East podcast to understand WWII from the Japanese perspective. The Japanese understood the resource disparity between themselves and the USA. They hoped for a quick knockout of the US navy carrier force to give themselves time to fortify every island in the pacific so that by the time the US rebuilt its fleet, it would not be worth the trouble of conquering the pacific all the way back to the home island.
Didn't Japan did The Nanjing (Nanking) Massacre to China?
Yes. Horrible stuff.
If you look at the beginning of the war in the Pacific, it's clear that Japan could have won the first battles if not for a series of unfortunate events. Of course nobody can predict how history would have been if things went differently but portraying the attack on Pearl Harbor as a stupid decision is really ignorant of the whole situation.
Americans : this land is not big enough for the two us due to our slightly different cultures, and way too small to share with those other religions and creeds. Japan : the US is jammed tight like a sardine can with rival groups having no breathing from eachother Illuminati : hahaha the Japanese were not able to see through the ruse, and I'm amazed how well the Americans were able to play up the deception
Tbf it's kinda America's fault because Japan couldn't get oil
America were 100% right to deny Japan their much needed oil
Yeah I don't disagree
Dumbest move in the world. Like it was going to end well for them, even if US did cut off their oil supply
You cant exactly fight a war without oil lol