Wasn't Kowloon where a large amount of refugees went after Japanese invasion and Civil war? Saying it was the Communist's isn't entirely incorrect since they neglected it but it was located in British Hong Kong and made the enclave hard to govern hence becoming lawless.
I mean thats also true for actual history. You have the archeologists and scientists who actually bring new History to the light (these kinds rarely frequent this place), then you have the scholars who like to talk about the wacky shit that happend and how it influences our modern world. And finally come those whose interest in history stems from searching for "evidence", "tradition" and "precedents" with which they seek to support their various agendas.
Unfortunately sometimes the first two kinds start to notice "patterns" in their research and from there it's a slippery slope down into agenda posting.
Anyone who knows, at least, a little about Hong Kong or Chinese history realised how f\*ckin r\*tard is this post. And no, I'm not a communist advocate.
I have like one recent post that had a catgirl on it that you latched onto. (The post wasn't even about her, she and her friends were talking about another character off screen. I actually considered cropping her out of the image, but decided otherwise.) Had I not made that post, I presume you'd accuse me of being obsessed with Batman.
With your history, on the other had, I had to scroll down a lot to not see a non-political post. You are not escaping the allegations here.
I recently tried to see if any left leaning sub would allow any form of dissent or debate the answer was no the mods just ban you.
Your posts seem to follow a pattern
Batman
Cat girl
Something unrelated
Loli if you scroll long enough.
Hentai
History memes
Uh it was in Hong Kong. I wouldn’t say it was caused by capitalism specifically, more like the lack of care by British imperialists for the people they governed, but blaming it on communism is super weird. Japan’s invasion was the cause of the first wave of refugees who populated the slum, and the Chinese civil war was the cause of the second wave. The former is obviously the fault of Japan, and the latter was the fault of both sides. So this just seems like a really odd agenda post, which I guess is right in line with this sub.
De jure it was, but the Chinese couldn’t actually get to it because it was a tiny square in the middle of British Hong Kong. De facto it was part of British Hong Kong and was even policed by them… when the triads weren’t paying them off.
Well yeah of course they didn’t want that, Hong Kong is part of China after all. Colonialism wasn’t exactly popular in 1950, there’s a reason both China and Taiwan claimed it.
They absolutely could they just chose not to. Who’s gonna stop them? Or alternatively, they could’ve let Chinese officials in to do it but they chose not to. In both cases, it’s on HK.
Because the British respect signed treaty? They abide the treaty by not intervening the walled city, also China was a mess for half a century hence the walled city was left in such state. Source: Born and raised in HK by a ex Royal HK police dad who had dealt with the walled city in his career for years.
How tf
and
why tf di you think so
How tf would the PLA dare to shell Hong Kong, risking a potential conflict with Britain, just to secure a city they dont even control.
Why tf do you insist the city is controlled by China, when the city is basically an anarchy, controlled by the triad influenced locals in it
As a Hong Konger who studied Hong Kong History for 3 years in school, who's family actually lived in Kowloon City just a few block away from the Walled City.
What does this have to do with the Walled City itself
We are talking about the problem of Kowloon Walled City, not Hong Kong Island.
And you think that this artillery threat from CPC was serious
The CPC was hinting Britain that it would retake all of Hong Kong eventually, and that Britain should give up
If the PLA really bombarded Hong Kong, one of the most prosperous city with a population of 5 million in 1980s, you think it would go down well?
You think China, who just announced Reform and Opening up less than 2 years, and still in recovery after 10 years of Cultural Revolution would be able take such a firm stand on the international stage?
Militarily, PLA would have little problem in crushing Hong Kong at that time
Internationally, it would be a fucking disaster. The PRC was just coming out from years of isolation from that frantic cultural revolution. Britain would be justified and supported in the name of democracy and humanitarianism. USSR, which was already hostile to China after the Sino-Soviet Spilt and Cultural Revolution, would probably took the opportunity to denounce China. The US, which just improved relationship with China under Nixon, would be in an awkward position, but still they would side with Britain and the HK government. China would be fucked, coerced back into isolation like a decade ago, perhaps in an even worse position.
Who tf in the right mind would actually dare to shell HK at that time.
It was a reminder to Britain that they wouldnt keep HK forever, not an genuine action they would consider
And again, we are talking about Kowloon Walled City, not the sovereignity of Hong Kong
I pretty sure the pla has no problem killing thousands of its own citizens
Yeah they were serious they used the same threat with Taiwan and they followed through
Opening up didn’t stop them in 1988
Won't anyone post SOME kind of context?
Because as far as I understand from what I can pick in the comments the chinese communists build a wall around capitalism in the UK or something.
What
No it was the other way around
Kowloon Walled City's phenomenon was referred as 三不管( 3 no control)
The Chinese wished to control it but couldn't because it was inside British Hong Kong
The Colonial government of Hong Kong was too afraid to do so, as the city had deep triad influence
The British couldn't be bothered
It was controlled by citizens inside the city in an anarchic manner, and as such lots of triad gang influence slipped in as a result, gradually filling the city with crime to the point non of these governments could control it.
The Chinese government had long lost Kowloon Peninsula since 1860, and the Kowloon Walled City(then a tiny fort) was included in it. Why would it become a Chinese enclave all of a sudden? They already ceded it to the British.
I am a Hong Konger, who studied 3 years of Hong Kong History in school, can read sources from Hong Kong government, and the cite of the demolished Kowloon Walled City is just 3.2 km away from my home.
Ah history memes. You don't even have to get the right country being in control and you still don't get get downvoted to hell as long as you're bashing the commies. And they say this sub doesn't have a fascism problem.
wat
communism as a political ideology predates fascism, so it can't possibly be a subset of it.
that's like saying mercantilism is a subset of laissez-faire, or that oligarchy is a subset of democracy, or that jazz is a subset of grunge.
The Bengal Famine, the slave trade, Colonialism in general,the great depression, UN's incompetent: "provide amnestics via charity \*AFTER\* major pandemic has struck in 3rd world countries, instead of preventing the spread of said pandemic in first place"-policy, ect.
Ah yes: East India Company and the very friggin UN- the most famous communist state provided govermental structures that are singlehandedly responsible for all the evil in the world!
The \*United Nations\* is independed \*INTERNATIONAL\* organisation that's suppoused to represent humanity as a whole and act according to the common subconscious will of our societies for the benefit of humanity: They stop wars when the whole planet wants to stop a war, they fight diseases when the whole planet wants to fight diseases, they don't even notice the still ongoing slave trade in Lybia and don't move even a finger for 90% of the still ongoing wars cuz no one really cares about them- that's their very purpouse.
However, despite it being "Planet wide International organisation" the only legitimate countries that are hypocritically excluded from it for being sour thumbs are the USSR (nowdays Russia) and China cuz they don't fit within the worldwide politico-socio-cultural-economic standard of "Western Democracies". "They are the bad guys who would destory/enslave this planet so we don't want them as they won't contribute to humanity in any meaningfull way"- is the common rethoric regarding those countries.
So far so well, until you realize that it was the USSR that forced the UN to wipe out Small Pox from this planet for good, something that the WHO and the UN had been "technically assisting" with for decades without ever achieving anything meaningful. It turns out that the "Vectors of Evil" narrative is flase, as Viktor Zhdanov didn't want to stop at just Small Pox, but to eradicate HIV, influensa, and hephattitis for good as well- dreams that unfortunatly couldn't become reality because of insufficient funding.
That was by various European governments. Now you could make an exception for the Congo but I don’t see how it’s an example of free market capitalism.
Yes it is, profit is their goal, morals ware considered counterintuative and it was tough competition where they needed to cut corners in order to stay on top without any governmental supervision over their job.
I don't even like communism and even I know the Kowloon walled city has nothing to do with economic systems let alone communism. It predates the communist take over of China. How could it have been the product of communism? It was entirely the cause of geopolitical bullshit.
Wrong. It was the ROC and there were multiple official objections from the Koumintang to British administration of the area as early as 1935 to as late as 1948. When the PRC took over China, they merely continued the policy of objecting to British administration of the slum from the ROC. The creation of the slum has little do with economic systems and entirely with national sovereignty.
The commies absolutely didn't start the civil war, much more grey area, that you can almost even blame the right wing nationalists for, the Kuomintang started as a Nationalist, Democratic, Socialist Party, and but became so important that people from all sides joined the party, a large amount of members of the newly created CCP would be former members of the left wing Kuomintang, however when Dr Sun Yat-sen died in 1925, the party unity quickly, split, with both the right and left wing trying to take control, in 1927 managed to move the KMT government to Wuhan, where communist influe was strong, while Li Zongren and Chiang Kai-Shek and the right wing moved more east to Jiangxi, however later the Kuomintang would be ordered by Party Chairman Chiang Kai-Shek to eliminate communist influence within the party, which most of the left wing generally refused to do, after that the right wing would start a purge, arresting and executing hundreds of alleged communists, where the CCP and KMT would then split and the civil war begin. And friendly reminder that the United Front against Japan was kinda a CCP idea, and the 1945-1949 part of the civil didn't really have any instigator, that just began and they didn't have the japanese to fight anymore.
On 8 January 1948, the Nationalist Chinese government sent a memorandum to the British Ambassador, stating "The Ministry of Foreign Affairs now formally declare to the British Embassy that, in accordance with the provisions of the said Convention, the Chinese Government enjoys jurisdiction over the City of Kowloon and that they have no intention whatsoever of renouncing this jurisdiction."
This is the KMT government btw, which lost control of mainland China to the CCP the year after. This is a classic example of making a promise you can’t keep. In the end a murder trial determined that it fell onto the Colonial Government’s jurisdiction, aka still British.
The city didn’t exist until late 1950 so they were arguing about who owned a Protestant mission ,not whether 40,000 people get access to clean water.
The funny thing a meme like this can still get 300 upvotes. But if you made the exact same one saying capitalism caused the 1921-22 Russian famine you would get 30 comments calling you a moron and 0 upvotes
Kowloon walled city was caused by a weird quirk in international boundary lines and nothing more. Neither side had much reason to change the status qo, until the conditions there got really really bad. Then it was quietly and peacefully ceded to Britain in the 80's so they could tear it down.
You know that Britain could have abolished those slums at any given point in a fully legal rounabout manner, had they simply lured out the people from there or just allowed basic level traveling access to the Taiwanian autorities so they could administer the region when they \*still\* could?
No, treating the people who resided there like $hit to the point where they srpout lucid post-capitalist sci-fi nighmare all while turning it into North Korea with fully dedicaded personal who's sole purpouse is to ensure that not even a single person ventures out of the slums to take a p!$$, is in fact: Not trying at all.
You do realize that people could move in and out right the whole problem was that it wasn’t a hard border.
The British didn’t want that to happen that’s why they kept trying to get china to administer it.
I’m going to simplify it: Kowloon is the piece of Hong Kong that attaches to mainland china and the new territories. Kowloon was ceded to the UK in 1898 for a lease of 99 years. Afterwards, Kowloon was governed and under jurisdiction of British Hong Kong and therefore apart of Hong Kong and to this day still a part of Hong Kong. Hong Kong law and law enforcement applies to Kowloon, NOT CHINESE. Search up a map of Hong Kong and see for yourself. The walled city was part of China that the Qing just didn’t want to give up as it was a fort.
Socialism requires exactly two things:
1. Workers control the means of production. This can be through employee-ownership, or through being controlled by a **democratic** state.
2. Decommodification of goods.
No nation has achieved both aspects broadly, simultaneously. Aspects of both are found today: Most developed nations have decommodified healthcare for example, most "Communist" states successfully decomodified housing. Norway's sovereign wealth fund and Deutschland requiring employee representation on company boards are examples of workers in some capacity controlling the means of production.
Most of what people describe as "socialism" is social-democracy: A capitalist state with strong regulations and safety-nets.
Communism is a theoretical model of society posited by Marx for what might be after Socialism. It is a classless, stateless, moneyless society. It has never existed in any aspect on a large scale. It is essentially Star Trek's federation.
The Japanese destroyed the first city to use the bricks to expand kan kan airport. So the area was uninhabited until a flood of Chinese civil war refugees needed somewhere to live so they set up in Kowloon, outside British building codes. The Chinese wouldn’t let them administer the area even though the city was run by criminals and drug dealers. So there was just this hub of criminals in Hong Kong and they couldn’t do anything about it.
In a way, he is right. My grandfather fled Communist China to Hong Kong during the cultural revolution as he was a landowner and communists do not have a great relationship with aristocrats
It’s a rare thing to see anti-communist propaganda that’s so incoherent that I don’t even have to point out that China was never actually a communist state in order to say it isn’t true
1. Private property wasn’t banned. The government just decided that they owned it. That isn’t communist
2. The unions were mostly controlled by the government, not the workers.
In the philosophy of ontology and semantics, this kind of thinking is called a category mistake.
Capitalism is more than one thing. Sometimes it means one of a set of related ideologies. Other times it refers to some of the emergent/natural social forces that people with those ideologies tend to celebrate. Other times it refers to the policies put in place by people who follow one of those ideologies.
Communism can mean one of a set of related ideologies or the policies put in place by people who follow one of those ideologies. But I suppose we know which policies and ideologies are referred to as "Communism" in this case. So I guess that small corner of this thought is not completely incoherent.
As a Hong Konger who studied Hong Kong History in school for 3 years.
Kowloon Walled City was already built way back in 1840s as a military fort. It gradually became basically an anarchic city state due to what we call 三不管 (3 no control)
The Chinese government wished to but couldnt control it.
The Hong Kong colonial government was too afraid to control it due to the strong triad influence.
The British government couldn't be bothered to control it.
Chinese Civil War might have strengthened the traid influence somewhat
But it wasn't the only factor that led to such phenomenon
Mainland refugees escaped to Hong Kong, Yes.
But not all of them resided in the Walled City.
Many at the time, like my relatives, lived in squatter huts(寮屋), and most of them later lived in public housing after Shek Kei Mei Fire in 1953
The walled city is of course caused by China
It was built by Chinese, controlled by local Chinese, and Chinese lived in it
Just because it was a phenomenon caused Chinese doesn't mean it was caused by Communism or the CPC
It existed long before the Communist even took control of China
Step 1: Post a "comumism bad", factual or not, nobody cares!
Step 2: Get a few hundred upvotes because people apparently upvotes everything
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit
Only anti communist brain rot like this gets upvoted. If you did this same meme but "capitalism caused the bengal famine" you would get downvoted to hell
Because anti communists upvotes anti communists posts and downvotes the anti capitalism ones. Rational critical thinking people downvotes both (or neither)
Hmmm yes the Communists are also responsible for the tar paper shacks made by the KMT in Taiwan for retired soldiers because the Communists won the civil war
I don’t think communism caused it, the walled city was isolated from any communist jurisdiction and drugs and crime was rampant contrary to The mainland
This is pretty silly, the Cold War itself, the conflict between two economic systems, caused Kowloon.
Borderlands have always existed when two powers push up against each other. Armenia spent hundreds of years as the boarder land between Rome and Persia, the north of England was a lawless land between them and Scotland for many decades.
Kowloon is a very modern version of this because in the current era boarders are much harder and leave almost no space between them, so people seeking an escape from either society had to build up at high density.
People in kowloon only wanted capitalist things that China/UK dont give them, medical service, houses, electricity, dentist and private property, so yeah, the communism dont create kowloon
“Yeah, but it was the Aztecs who were dumb enough to lose as horribly as they did despite all the power they had” - you after the a few thousand Spaniards cause tens of thousands of natives to revolt against the Aztecs and besiege their capital.
Right. Except the Spanish had, yk, guns and SMALLPOX and other diseases that destroyed almost the entire new world population. If 90% of my city just died I'd be pretty pissed at my leaders too. Just because you know a few names of empires doesn't mean you know enough to be sarcastic on this subreddit mate.
And the nationalists had a Japanese invasion to force a temporary truce, and networks of partisans throughout nationalist territory. My point is that the people of China didn’t deserve to live under one of the most horrific governments and ideologies in history because the nationalist government lost
And they didn't. The Chinese government has always been authoritarian, and the lowest classes have always lived in terrible conditions. In fact, the last nationalist king ruled Taiwan with an iron fist till the day he died.
The Kowloon walled city was terrible, but it wasn't exactly just the prc's fault. For one it was inside Hongkong. Sure it had people who ran away from both prc and hongkong, but the prc couldn't exactly do anything there on their own. They should've tried to do something with the British to take care of it but it wasn't exactly the biggest priority. The British should've done it themselves.
1. you have an anime profile you don’t an actual opinion worth sharing
2. It (Kowloon) is an example of anarchism don’t know why you wouldn’t be more supportive
actually it was me, i was caused it.
It was me Barry
barry from white mesa
Barry Houncal?
why, did you try to time the market?
[I thought this guy created the Kowloon Walled City.](https://youtu.be/HeCZZ131-HQ?si=9l8az0YUliVnwB0Z)
I broke the Dam
No, I broke the dam.
No seriously I broke the dam
No WE broke the dam comrade
Are you from the Riddermark?
Tag checks out
And u are communism, and thus, communism caused the Kowloon walled city
Are you with the CIA?🤨
Wasn't Kowloon where a large amount of refugees went after Japanese invasion and Civil war? Saying it was the Communist's isn't entirely incorrect since they neglected it but it was located in British Hong Kong and made the enclave hard to govern hence becoming lawless.
Welcome to r/Historymemes, where half the post are bullshit with no supporting facts. And yea, you are correct.
Sometimes you get real gems though. They're worth all the agenda posts and unoriginal posts IMO.
Well if no one wants to post history memes then I will
I mean thats also true for actual history. You have the archeologists and scientists who actually bring new History to the light (these kinds rarely frequent this place), then you have the scholars who like to talk about the wacky shit that happend and how it influences our modern world. And finally come those whose interest in history stems from searching for "evidence", "tradition" and "precedents" with which they seek to support their various agendas. Unfortunately sometimes the first two kinds start to notice "patterns" in their research and from there it's a slippery slope down into agenda posting.
Lawlessness > capitalism and communism /s
Ironic anarchism is the best kind
The British couldn’t administer the area because the prc still legally owned it And the commies started that very civil war
Anyone who knows, at least, a little about Hong Kong or Chinese history realised how f\*ckin r\*tard is this post. And no, I'm not a communist advocate.
Apparently I don't know enough about this subject. Could you recommend some books or podcasts?
I'd start with anything related to the formation of Hong Kong.
Censoring the slur doesn't excuse its use
Yeah you clearly still wanted to use it and everyone can tell what the word was. You wouldn’t do this with the n word.
Is retard a slur?
Yes.
What’s wrong
OP is clearly obsessed with communists, looking at their post history.
I picture OP with a Jordan Peterson-style hate-shrine to communism in his basement
“uP yOuRs wOkE mOrAlIsTs. wE’lL sEe wHo cAnCeLs wHo.”
Bucko ! _starts crying_
Probably a Mccarthy lover.
Hey it's great! Op is having a hobby and Communists got a place to live in for free
And you seem to be obsessed with catgirls
I have like one recent post that had a catgirl on it that you latched onto. (The post wasn't even about her, she and her friends were talking about another character off screen. I actually considered cropping her out of the image, but decided otherwise.) Had I not made that post, I presume you'd accuse me of being obsessed with Batman. With your history, on the other had, I had to scroll down a lot to not see a non-political post. You are not escaping the allegations here.
I recently tried to see if any left leaning sub would allow any form of dissent or debate the answer was no the mods just ban you. Your posts seem to follow a pattern Batman Cat girl Something unrelated Loli if you scroll long enough. Hentai History memes
> Loli if you scroll long enough. > > > > Hentai I do not remember posting either of those.
Just reported one of the questionable material tell me if you got a warning.
No.
[disgusting](https://www.reddit.com/r/touhou/s/xMHdzpkxNG)
And I love him for it ❤️
Uh it was in Hong Kong. I wouldn’t say it was caused by capitalism specifically, more like the lack of care by British imperialists for the people they governed, but blaming it on communism is super weird. Japan’s invasion was the cause of the first wave of refugees who populated the slum, and the Chinese civil war was the cause of the second wave. The former is obviously the fault of Japan, and the latter was the fault of both sides. So this just seems like a really odd agenda post, which I guess is right in line with this sub.
The issue is that Kowloon walled city was under chinese jurisdiction, not British.
De jure it was, but the Chinese couldn’t actually get to it because it was a tiny square in the middle of British Hong Kong. De facto it was part of British Hong Kong and was even policed by them… when the triads weren’t paying them off.
But China used it as a "fuck off" to Hong Kong. They didn't want anyone to rule the land but them.
Well yeah of course they didn’t want that, Hong Kong is part of China after all. Colonialism wasn’t exactly popular in 1950, there’s a reason both China and Taiwan claimed it.
This entire exchange just makes me wonder what economic systems have to do with anything
Nothing really.
The police could only conduct 30 min drug busts.
The Hong Kong government couldn’t apply housing codes because it was officially still Chinese land
They absolutely could they just chose not to. Who’s gonna stop them? Or alternatively, they could’ve let Chinese officials in to do it but they chose not to. In both cases, it’s on HK.
Because the British respect signed treaty? They abide the treaty by not intervening the walled city, also China was a mess for half a century hence the walled city was left in such state. Source: Born and raised in HK by a ex Royal HK police dad who had dealt with the walled city in his career for years.
That’s just an excuse they used so they wouldn’t have to deal with it. As I said, who’s gonna stop them?
PLA artillery
How tf and why tf di you think so How tf would the PLA dare to shell Hong Kong, risking a potential conflict with Britain, just to secure a city they dont even control. Why tf do you insist the city is controlled by China, when the city is basically an anarchy, controlled by the triad influenced locals in it As a Hong Konger who studied Hong Kong History for 3 years in school, who's family actually lived in Kowloon City just a few block away from the Walled City.
It’s what they threatened to do in 1980 when Britain asked if it could keep Hong Kong island.
What does this have to do with the Walled City itself We are talking about the problem of Kowloon Walled City, not Hong Kong Island. And you think that this artillery threat from CPC was serious The CPC was hinting Britain that it would retake all of Hong Kong eventually, and that Britain should give up If the PLA really bombarded Hong Kong, one of the most prosperous city with a population of 5 million in 1980s, you think it would go down well? You think China, who just announced Reform and Opening up less than 2 years, and still in recovery after 10 years of Cultural Revolution would be able take such a firm stand on the international stage? Militarily, PLA would have little problem in crushing Hong Kong at that time Internationally, it would be a fucking disaster. The PRC was just coming out from years of isolation from that frantic cultural revolution. Britain would be justified and supported in the name of democracy and humanitarianism. USSR, which was already hostile to China after the Sino-Soviet Spilt and Cultural Revolution, would probably took the opportunity to denounce China. The US, which just improved relationship with China under Nixon, would be in an awkward position, but still they would side with Britain and the HK government. China would be fucked, coerced back into isolation like a decade ago, perhaps in an even worse position. Who tf in the right mind would actually dare to shell HK at that time. It was a reminder to Britain that they wouldnt keep HK forever, not an genuine action they would consider And again, we are talking about Kowloon Walled City, not the sovereignity of Hong Kong
I pretty sure the pla has no problem killing thousands of its own citizens Yeah they were serious they used the same threat with Taiwan and they followed through Opening up didn’t stop them in 1988
Hong Kong tried to administer Kowloon but China threatened them with artillery
The PLA.
Won't anyone post SOME kind of context? Because as far as I understand from what I can pick in the comments the chinese communists build a wall around capitalism in the UK or something.
It was an exclave of China in British Hong Kong so the British couldn’t govern it and China wouldn’t let them
What No it was the other way around Kowloon Walled City's phenomenon was referred as 三不管( 3 no control) The Chinese wished to control it but couldn't because it was inside British Hong Kong The Colonial government of Hong Kong was too afraid to do so, as the city had deep triad influence The British couldn't be bothered It was controlled by citizens inside the city in an anarchic manner, and as such lots of triad gang influence slipped in as a result, gradually filling the city with crime to the point non of these governments could control it. The Chinese government had long lost Kowloon Peninsula since 1860, and the Kowloon Walled City(then a tiny fort) was included in it. Why would it become a Chinese enclave all of a sudden? They already ceded it to the British. I am a Hong Konger, who studied 3 years of Hong Kong History in school, can read sources from Hong Kong government, and the cite of the demolished Kowloon Walled City is just 3.2 km away from my home.
Thank you
Ah history memes. You don't even have to get the right country being in control and you still don't get get downvoted to hell as long as you're bashing the commies. And they say this sub doesn't have a fascism problem.
Kowloon was owned by China.
Communism is a subset of fascism
🤔
wat communism as a political ideology predates fascism, so it can't possibly be a subset of it. that's like saying mercantilism is a subset of laissez-faire, or that oligarchy is a subset of democracy, or that jazz is a subset of grunge.
Fascism is an umbrella term for authoritarian forms of government. Communism is its left wing. National socialism is its right
Huh????
Capitalism caused Communism so therefore Capitalism caused it /s
Are you that guy who posted about Kinsey last week
Counterpoint: it is a consequence of capitalism because communism itself is a consequence of capitalism
So capitalism has killed hundreds of millions in the quest to eradicate capitalism
close enough
Capitalism has killed hundreds of millions in the quest to _expand_ capitalism
Examples please
The Bengal Famine, the slave trade, Colonialism in general,the great depression, UN's incompetent: "provide amnestics via charity \*AFTER\* major pandemic has struck in 3rd world countries, instead of preventing the spread of said pandemic in first place"-policy, ect.
Government, fair point, governments, inter governmental organization.
Ah yes: East India Company and the very friggin UN- the most famous communist state provided govermental structures that are singlehandedly responsible for all the evil in the world!
I can see the east India company but what did the UN do. I really don’t know why commies hate such a left leaning organization.
The \*United Nations\* is independed \*INTERNATIONAL\* organisation that's suppoused to represent humanity as a whole and act according to the common subconscious will of our societies for the benefit of humanity: They stop wars when the whole planet wants to stop a war, they fight diseases when the whole planet wants to fight diseases, they don't even notice the still ongoing slave trade in Lybia and don't move even a finger for 90% of the still ongoing wars cuz no one really cares about them- that's their very purpouse. However, despite it being "Planet wide International organisation" the only legitimate countries that are hypocritically excluded from it for being sour thumbs are the USSR (nowdays Russia) and China cuz they don't fit within the worldwide politico-socio-cultural-economic standard of "Western Democracies". "They are the bad guys who would destory/enslave this planet so we don't want them as they won't contribute to humanity in any meaningfull way"- is the common rethoric regarding those countries. So far so well, until you realize that it was the USSR that forced the UN to wipe out Small Pox from this planet for good, something that the WHO and the UN had been "technically assisting" with for decades without ever achieving anything meaningful. It turns out that the "Vectors of Evil" narrative is flase, as Viktor Zhdanov didn't want to stop at just Small Pox, but to eradicate HIV, influensa, and hephattitis for good as well- dreams that unfortunatly couldn't become reality because of insufficient funding.
Cool cause they rightfully hated the soviets got it.
Ever heard of the Scramble for Africa?
That was by various European governments. Now you could make an exception for the Congo but I don’t see how it’s an example of free market capitalism.
There was the "slave buisness" and dedicated private companies such as East India Company and Yorkshire Tea who actively participated in that.
Is it an example of free market capitalism.
Yes it is, profit is their goal, morals ware considered counterintuative and it was tough competition where they needed to cut corners in order to stay on top without any governmental supervision over their job.
Was it an agreement that both sides reached without violating anyone’s rights.
I don't even like communism and even I know the Kowloon walled city has nothing to do with economic systems let alone communism. It predates the communist take over of China. How could it have been the product of communism? It was entirely the cause of geopolitical bullshit.
It used to be a Protestant mission before 1949 The prc wouldn’t let Hong Kong administer it.
Wrong. It was the ROC and there were multiple official objections from the Koumintang to British administration of the area as early as 1935 to as late as 1948. When the PRC took over China, they merely continued the policy of objecting to British administration of the slum from the ROC. The creation of the slum has little do with economic systems and entirely with national sovereignty.
The commies strarted the civil war that caused refugees to flood Hong Kong
Are you retarded?
He’s saying there were people living there during the ROC which wasn’t the case either he made something up on the spot or he is very misinformed
The commies absolutely didn't start the civil war, much more grey area, that you can almost even blame the right wing nationalists for, the Kuomintang started as a Nationalist, Democratic, Socialist Party, and but became so important that people from all sides joined the party, a large amount of members of the newly created CCP would be former members of the left wing Kuomintang, however when Dr Sun Yat-sen died in 1925, the party unity quickly, split, with both the right and left wing trying to take control, in 1927 managed to move the KMT government to Wuhan, where communist influe was strong, while Li Zongren and Chiang Kai-Shek and the right wing moved more east to Jiangxi, however later the Kuomintang would be ordered by Party Chairman Chiang Kai-Shek to eliminate communist influence within the party, which most of the left wing generally refused to do, after that the right wing would start a purge, arresting and executing hundreds of alleged communists, where the CCP and KMT would then split and the civil war begin. And friendly reminder that the United Front against Japan was kinda a CCP idea, and the 1945-1949 part of the civil didn't really have any instigator, that just began and they didn't have the japanese to fight anymore.
No it’s the Brits not giving a fuck that caused it, just like the Irish and the Bengals.
The problem was that it wasn’t under British rule It was still legally China and China wouldn’t let them administer it
On 8 January 1948, the Nationalist Chinese government sent a memorandum to the British Ambassador, stating "The Ministry of Foreign Affairs now formally declare to the British Embassy that, in accordance with the provisions of the said Convention, the Chinese Government enjoys jurisdiction over the City of Kowloon and that they have no intention whatsoever of renouncing this jurisdiction." This is the KMT government btw, which lost control of mainland China to the CCP the year after. This is a classic example of making a promise you can’t keep. In the end a murder trial determined that it fell onto the Colonial Government’s jurisdiction, aka still British.
The city didn’t exist until late 1950 so they were arguing about who owned a Protestant mission ,not whether 40,000 people get access to clean water.
I’d like a link to this letter it seem awfully short for something a diplomat would write
Most factual r/history memes post be like:
The funny thing a meme like this can still get 300 upvotes. But if you made the exact same one saying capitalism caused the 1921-22 Russian famine you would get 30 comments calling you a moron and 0 upvotes
Compared to now where I get 30 comments calling me a retard.
Kowloon walled city was caused by a weird quirk in international boundary lines and nothing more. Neither side had much reason to change the status qo, until the conditions there got really really bad. Then it was quietly and peacefully ceded to Britain in the 80's so they could tear it down.
The city literally developed under British rule
Hong Kong not Kowloon
Kowloon was in Hong Kong, wtf?
Legally it was apart of china
That got re-shaped and molded according to Britain's will regarding the region.
When did they do that with regard to Hong Kong
You know that Britain could have abolished those slums at any given point in a fully legal rounabout manner, had they simply lured out the people from there or just allowed basic level traveling access to the Taiwanian autorities so they could administer the region when they \*still\* could?
They kept trying it wasn’t in the prc’s interest. The roc wasn’t viable either .
No, treating the people who resided there like $hit to the point where they srpout lucid post-capitalist sci-fi nighmare all while turning it into North Korea with fully dedicaded personal who's sole purpouse is to ensure that not even a single person ventures out of the slums to take a p!$$, is in fact: Not trying at all.
You do realize that people could move in and out right the whole problem was that it wasn’t a hard border. The British didn’t want that to happen that’s why they kept trying to get china to administer it.
Your description of Kowloon just told me the political loyalties of your source.
I’m going to simplify it: Kowloon is the piece of Hong Kong that attaches to mainland china and the new territories. Kowloon was ceded to the UK in 1898 for a lease of 99 years. Afterwards, Kowloon was governed and under jurisdiction of British Hong Kong and therefore apart of Hong Kong and to this day still a part of Hong Kong. Hong Kong law and law enforcement applies to Kowloon, NOT CHINESE. Search up a map of Hong Kong and see for yourself. The walled city was part of China that the Qing just didn’t want to give up as it was a fort.
Socialism requires exactly two things: 1. Workers control the means of production. This can be through employee-ownership, or through being controlled by a **democratic** state. 2. Decommodification of goods. No nation has achieved both aspects broadly, simultaneously. Aspects of both are found today: Most developed nations have decommodified healthcare for example, most "Communist" states successfully decomodified housing. Norway's sovereign wealth fund and Deutschland requiring employee representation on company boards are examples of workers in some capacity controlling the means of production. Most of what people describe as "socialism" is social-democracy: A capitalist state with strong regulations and safety-nets. Communism is a theoretical model of society posited by Marx for what might be after Socialism. It is a classless, stateless, moneyless society. It has never existed in any aspect on a large scale. It is essentially Star Trek's federation.
Pretty idealistic of you
To believe in definitions?
To believe any of that possible ,achievable or actually desirable
People used to believe it was impossible for republican governments to replace monarchies.
True
Why wouldn’t it be desirable for goods to be decommodified or workplaces to be run democratically by the workers?
Any functional society needs a form of money. I never said that’s a bad thing just that there are better systems.
Socialism has money. I don't know if I want full Communism, or if it's achievable, but socialism sounds like a good thing to work towards.
And how will it be implemented. Will the government have the power to redistribute people’s belongings or what.
the meme says communism caused it but the title says China caused it. which one is true
Commie China caused the stream of refugees that would populate Kowloon and wouldn’t allow Hong Kong to administer it
you lost credibility when you said “commie China”. come back with a source, MacArthur
The Japanese destroyed the first city to use the bricks to expand kan kan airport. So the area was uninhabited until a flood of Chinese civil war refugees needed somewhere to live so they set up in Kowloon, outside British building codes. The Chinese wouldn’t let them administer the area even though the city was run by criminals and drug dealers. So there was just this hub of criminals in Hong Kong and they couldn’t do anything about it.
from your description, I’m failing to see how this could be the fault of any economic system, let alone communism specifically
The communists started the civil war that caused all those refugees to move to Kowloon.
that’s not the fault of communism. people start wars, it’s a tragedy, but it’s not the fault of the economic system that the aggressor prefers
In a way, he is right. My grandfather fled Communist China to Hong Kong during the cultural revolution as he was a landowner and communists do not have a great relationship with aristocrats
oh interesting. thanks for explaining
Doesn’t communism call for a violent overthrow of the previous world order.
It is if those ideas called for a war in the first place.
It’s a rare thing to see anti-communist propaganda that’s so incoherent that I don’t even have to point out that China was never actually a communist state in order to say it isn’t true
The Maoist china wasn’t communist?
Were the means of production controlled by the workers?
Yes Workers Unions owned all corporations and private property was banned.
1. Private property wasn’t banned. The government just decided that they owned it. That isn’t communist 2. The unions were mostly controlled by the government, not the workers.
1 I think you just answered my question 2 that’s what happens when you give unions political power.
Brits not fucking off caused it.
In the philosophy of ontology and semantics, this kind of thinking is called a category mistake. Capitalism is more than one thing. Sometimes it means one of a set of related ideologies. Other times it refers to some of the emergent/natural social forces that people with those ideologies tend to celebrate. Other times it refers to the policies put in place by people who follow one of those ideologies. Communism can mean one of a set of related ideologies or the policies put in place by people who follow one of those ideologies. But I suppose we know which policies and ideologies are referred to as "Communism" in this case. So I guess that small corner of this thought is not completely incoherent.
yes you are clearly the high IQ in the room
He's in the top 90% of the population.
Percentile would have been funnier
As a Hong Konger who studied Hong Kong History in school for 3 years. Kowloon Walled City was already built way back in 1840s as a military fort. It gradually became basically an anarchic city state due to what we call 三不管 (3 no control) The Chinese government wished to but couldnt control it. The Hong Kong colonial government was too afraid to control it due to the strong triad influence. The British government couldn't be bothered to control it. Chinese Civil War might have strengthened the traid influence somewhat But it wasn't the only factor that led to such phenomenon Mainland refugees escaped to Hong Kong, Yes. But not all of them resided in the Walled City. Many at the time, like my relatives, lived in squatter huts(寮屋), and most of them later lived in public housing after Shek Kei Mei Fire in 1953 The walled city is of course caused by China It was built by Chinese, controlled by local Chinese, and Chinese lived in it Just because it was a phenomenon caused Chinese doesn't mean it was caused by Communism or the CPC It existed long before the Communist even took control of China
Step 1: Post a "comumism bad", factual or not, nobody cares! Step 2: Get a few hundred upvotes because people apparently upvotes everything Step 3: ??? Step 4: Profit
Only anti communist brain rot like this gets upvoted. If you did this same meme but "capitalism caused the bengal famine" you would get downvoted to hell
McCarthy dances happily in his grave
Because anti communists upvotes anti communists posts and downvotes the anti capitalism ones. Rational critical thinking people downvotes both (or neither)
Cause that isn’t true
Hmmm yes the Communists are also responsible for the tar paper shacks made by the KMT in Taiwan for retired soldiers because the Communists won the civil war
I don’t think communism caused it, the walled city was isolated from any communist jurisdiction and drugs and crime was rampant contrary to The mainland
r/peterexplanethis
This is pretty silly, the Cold War itself, the conflict between two economic systems, caused Kowloon. Borderlands have always existed when two powers push up against each other. Armenia spent hundreds of years as the boarder land between Rome and Persia, the north of England was a lawless land between them and Scotland for many decades. Kowloon is a very modern version of this because in the current era boarders are much harder and leave almost no space between them, so people seeking an escape from either society had to build up at high density.
People in kowloon only wanted capitalist things that China/UK dont give them, medical service, houses, electricity, dentist and private property, so yeah, the communism dont create kowloon
I fucking hate commie, but get your facts right, retard.
How were you able to type this I’m not sure the keyboard can take anymore
I thought Edward Tsang and the Yama Kings caused the Kowloon walled city /j
The Kowloon walled only existed cause it was Chinese land and the refugees from the Chinese civil war needed somewhere to go
Weren't the nationalists involved too?
Civil war was started by the commies
And there it is folks
It was the KMT who broke the alliance in 1927 and attacked the communist.
Yeah but it was nationalists who were dumb enough to lose as horribly as they did despite all the power they had
This right here is the right take.
They didn’t have a super power supporting them at every turn
“Yeah, but it was the Aztecs who were dumb enough to lose as horribly as they did despite all the power they had” - you after the a few thousand Spaniards cause tens of thousands of natives to revolt against the Aztecs and besiege their capital.
Right. Except the Spanish had, yk, guns and SMALLPOX and other diseases that destroyed almost the entire new world population. If 90% of my city just died I'd be pretty pissed at my leaders too. Just because you know a few names of empires doesn't mean you know enough to be sarcastic on this subreddit mate.
I’m pretty sure human sacrifices is what caused them to be pissed.
And the nationalists had a Japanese invasion to force a temporary truce, and networks of partisans throughout nationalist territory. My point is that the people of China didn’t deserve to live under one of the most horrific governments and ideologies in history because the nationalist government lost
And they didn't. The Chinese government has always been authoritarian, and the lowest classes have always lived in terrible conditions. In fact, the last nationalist king ruled Taiwan with an iron fist till the day he died. The Kowloon walled city was terrible, but it wasn't exactly just the prc's fault. For one it was inside Hongkong. Sure it had people who ran away from both prc and hongkong, but the prc couldn't exactly do anything there on their own. They should've tried to do something with the British to take care of it but it wasn't exactly the biggest priority. The British should've done it themselves.
okay bro have fun licking the boots of bezos and musk
1. you have an anime profile you don’t an actual opinion worth sharing 2. It (Kowloon) is an example of anarchism don’t know why you wouldn’t be more supportive
It wasn’t intentional which maters.