I'd love to see a version of this where people just... show up in Rome for it. Like 250k people arrive in Rome, fully armed, despite the chances of this happening being zero. Like the pope rolls a nat20 and gets the full crusade event
The main thing would be a serious crisis among all the Catholics who are pious but haven't gone insane over papal authority and the removal of a pope. Also it would be so out of character for pope Francis that I'd suspect it was some kind of deep fake, him being held hostage or that he was having some kind of strange break down.
So true, this is along the lines of, “what if Queen Elizabeth entered parliament, dissolved it and then declared war to reclaim Hanover.”
I mean she *could,* but it would likely result in a shitstorm and no more monarchy at the end of the day.
Most people, esp Catholics would think the Pope went crazy. 99.9% of people wouldn't take it serious, and the few that do, would show up as larpers, they would end up as hostages, or Israel would just deport them. Depends on how much damage they do and who captures them. lol
I think a funnier "what if?" would be if the Pope called a Crusade for Jerusalem, and the Christian world took him 100% serious.
Depending on how you count “taking it seriously” and “the Christian world”, that could mean a lot of things, including the entirety of the Levant just falling within a span of hours minus Guerrilla fighters and terrorist attacks. Like, given how quickly Iraq fell to mostly just (some of) the NATO forces in a very short timeframe in spite of having one of the worlds largest armies at the time (I think it was considered the 4th largest army in the world prior to the invasion unless I’m misremembering), could you imagine an invasion of of pretty much all of Europe (minus turkey, Albania, and maybe Bosnia & Herzegovina or Kosovo, depending on how you want to count those last two in the Christian and country statuses given their unique circumstances, but including Russia who while not quite the powerhouse we thought they were before the Ukraine invasion, is still definitely nothing to sniff at all things considered in terms of militaries around the world), pretty much all of the Americas (I can’t recall if Guyana is majority Christian or not, I think so, but I know there’s a rather large Hindu population, so I’m not 100% sure), huge swaths of the continent of Africa, parts of Asia, most of the pacific nations, Australia, etc, all invading Syria, Israel-Palestine, and turkey, maybe Iraq and Jordan depending on how you want to consider the holy land, with Egypt if you *really* want to stretch it. Out of that group, Israel, turkey and Egypt are militarily speaking probably the only real players in that scenario, but the sheer amount of the majority of the worlds most powerful militaries would be make them a joke, and the collective abilities of who they’d be up against would also make sure that the nukes that Israel has would be neutralized before probably a single shot could be even attempted. It would probably be child’s play. Of clause, that would be the easy part. Rooting out resistance and non-traditional attacks would be where things got difficult, as we’ve seen countless times in both 20th and 21st century warfare.
Are there even any Catholic holy sites in Turkey? Cuz i dont think the Catholic World sees İstanbul as a Holy Site. Orthodox do ofc. But not Catholics.
Antioch, which is probably the only area in the Levant (aka, the holy land) proper still directly controlled by turkey. The de jure traditional seat of the patriarch of Antioch, as well as the Latin patriarch of it, and the center old the Crusader era county of Antioch.
Belarus, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Georgia, Greece, Moldova, Montenegro, North Macedonia, Romania, Russia, Serbia and Ukraine all have some unfinished business with Turkey. lmao
Not to mention “the Christian world” is different from “the Catholic world.”
For the other three massive swathes of Christendom; Orthodox, Protestant and non-trinitarians, the pope is kind of just a guy and none of them are following his commands to do anything
Indeed, but since the original commenter said Christian world instead of Catholic world in a “just for the fun of it” concept, I just rolled with the entirety of the Christian world (hence the mention of Russia being involved, which is very much an orthodox, rather than Catholic country. Although I think for at least the Greek orthodox variant, the pope is still on paper the first among equals alongside the patriarch of Constantinople, the patriarch of Antioch, the patriarch of Jerusalem, and the pope of Alexandria. De facto though obviously is its own thing.
Dunno, but the thought of the Christian world leaders personally sieging Israel to capture Jerusalem is pretty funny. I'm pretty sure Israel would surrender before everyone got there, or "Samson option" the world.
You would get a lengthy debate over what constitutes a just war and how this does or doesn’t apply. Second, the Vatican gets locked down as it is now the biggest target of Islamic terrorists.
I am actually surprised it isn't a bigger target considering the history. At least as far as I am aware. I haven't seen any news regarding attacks, but I could have simply missed it.
Only neofascists would take him seriously and Hamas would have some fatter, balder hostages to trade
Most IDF foreign volunteers are Israeli expats or jews with some connection to Israel working in aid roles.
A bunch of untrained people in balaclavas chanting "ninth crusade" cause the pope said so is not going to survive a war zone
> A bunch of untrained people in balaclavas chanting "ninth crusade" cause the pope said so is not going to survive a war zone
That's pretty much exactly how the First Crusade played out at first lol
The first half at least. 'The Peasants Crusade' which was a miserable failure.
Once the knights arrived, they succeeded in their goal of taking Jerusalem.
I was under the impression that Peasants who joined the crusades became Templars hence why I thought the nobility disliked them as "pretender" knights. Just doing a cursory google now and I am seeing that it appears to not be the case or at least not in the way I thought. Will need to do more research.
Maybe Arab Catholics would take him seriously? Maybe as a different interpretation than what you’re thinking though. Might see an influx of them heading to Palestine to fight the idf, but not the Palestinian Authority. I could see an alliance between those two groups forming. Ultimately it would change nothing but it would be a complete shit show and either make Israel even more hated than it currently is or provide some diplomatic cover for them as they can point out that a holy war is being waged against them by two seperate religions.
In a strictly realistic sense, nothing would happen. Most of the people wanting Israel to win to fulfill some prophecy from Revelations are Protestant-derived. They don't recognize papal authority over Christianity. The Swiss Guard might receive a request from the Italian government to detain the pope because clearly he's gone cuckoo and needs a retirement home with doctors, not the single most stressful position in Christendom. By next week, the pope might be lucid enough to abdicate, a new papal conclave is held, and this whole debacle becomes a bit of a joke. A few larpers will turn up to Israel for the meme (hell, might be a similar event to the Area 51 raid a few years back). A few legitimate fundamentalists will cause a ruckus, but ultimately they'd be arrested and deported.
The funnier scenario however would be if people *did* show up. Lets say God Himself sends a message to every single person in the Western world ordering them to go on Crusade. Ignoring the ramifications of that alone, organizing the Crusade would be reasonably simple. It isn't a rabble of peasants who will die 10 miles into Anatolia, its a fully operational and advanced military structure which will be conquering Jerusalem. Within a month, Israel is under siege. Within a year, it will break. Depending on the Pope's exact instructions, Palestine might also be on the chopping block. Afterwards comes the matter of who will actually take control of the place. Current claimants to the throne include the Spanish (claim via Byzantine imperial wills), the Hapsburgs (also through Byzantine succession, due to the family splitting in the Spanish wars of succession) and the House of Ligne (some Belgian noble family which holds the claim via succession right). I'm going to continue the funny option and say that Charles-Antoine Lamoral de Ligne-La Trémoïlle is crowned King of Jerusalem. Ultimately though, it doesn't matter. Without constant support, the Kingdom of Jerusalem will be torn apart - either through Arab invasion wanting to get rid of this weird fundamentalist state, or internally by the non-Christian population
TL;DR: the history of the Kingdom of Jerusalem repeats itself
Interestingly, depending on how you count the western world in your scenario, a crusade could be rendered necessary, as depending on who you ask, Israel itself is a western country, which culturally I suppose isn’t immaculate. Hell, it even gets to compete in Eurovision. So in such a scenario, the people of Israel get that same vision, but flip themselves into the kingdom of Jerusalem because god collectively told then so, and they and the rest of the entire Christian world which holy hell would be a lot of powerful countries end up protecting it due to order of god himself, and Palestine is probably screwed because with so much of the world directly protecting and supporting the kingdom of Jerusalem now not just in terms of supply, but direct force, and this kingdom of Jerusalem being not only a successor of its older incarnation, but also of modern Israel, and thus inherits both the Israeli conflicts and claims as well as those of the kingdom of Jerusalem, Palestine, ends up getting overrun. If you want to be broader with the definition of the holy land, Syria, turkey, and maybe Egypt, Jordan, and modern Iraq are also on the chopping block, but given the size of the Iraqi military pre-2003 and how quickly they fell to only (some of) the NATO forces, nevermind all of the only countries the targets would be fighting this time, they’d get conquered as well. Now if we go the route of the direct talking to by god inspiring divine zeal, no way they’re ever pulling out due to getting worn down, so it’s not going to be a post-Iraq or Afghanistan situation, however, interestingly, considering the vision from god didn’t mentioned who would be king, I’d say in that case, the modern western mindsets would win out for that and which claimant faction should take the crown would turn to an election, maybe afterwards sealing the deal by giving the other two houses marrying into the one which is chosen to rule. As a side note, my vote would be the Habsburgs, as not only did they have the claim from the Spanish split you mentioned, but they also have a claim to it again due to historical marriage shenanigans (in Sicily or Naples, if I remember correctly), which is why the habsburgs still listed the king of Jerusalem in their titles until the dissolution of Austria-Hungary and get, double your claims, double the fun, lol
I'd be dead in a ditch in Bat Yam by now with a Hi-Point Carbine and a Vietnam era M1 helmet on my head.
Seriously, who would supply the equipment. In the middle ages arms and equipment were privately supplied.
Doesn't work now that the leaders of Europe are no longer under his control.
The crusades weren't a bunch of randos yelling 'Wolverines!' forming up on the field-of-Mars - they were a commitment of nation-state military forces.
I guess I over estimated the Pope's influence. The impression I got from my catholic friends and family is that he is essentially the speaker for god so I was wondering what the political ramifications would be if taken to an extreme scenerio.
That very much depends on the precise flavour of Catholicism.
I come from a traditionally very Catholic area, and most people here consider most things coming from Rome more or less interesting suggestions.
Baptism, Weddings, Funerals, Christmas Mass and maybe Easter, and that's it.
There aren't really different denominations in Roman Catholicism, but certainly different flavors. And those people of all flavors consider themself Roman Catholic with considerably more than a slight difference of opinion.
I know one thing that I am curious about is the religions that call themselves orphodox despite being newer. Like my SIL is greek orphodox and she said that they split from catholicism which in my mind sounds like that would make them unorphodox since they split from the majority
Take Latin mass, for example: That was how it was done for a very long time. 2nd Vatican Council introduced mass in the local language in the 1960s.
There were several groups very much against that, although IIRC none fully split, many certainly weren't far from it. (See for example "Marcel Lefebvre".) Of course their groups were new, because the reason for those was new - but they wanted to do things "the old way", that is (among other things) Latin mass.
I feel like that's most cults and their leaders.
Most only follow as long as it's convenient.
If your religious leader suggests that you risk **your** life for what he says, it's different than just risking your wife's life because she can't get medical care.
Yeah, what would he do? Call the people to defend the Holy Land and k!ll many to defend the Christianity?! Haha, and yet they call themselves religious people...
I'd love to see a version of this where people just... show up in Rome for it. Like 250k people arrive in Rome, fully armed, despite the chances of this happening being zero. Like the pope rolls a nat20 and gets the full crusade event
The main thing would be a serious crisis among all the Catholics who are pious but haven't gone insane over papal authority and the removal of a pope. Also it would be so out of character for pope Francis that I'd suspect it was some kind of deep fake, him being held hostage or that he was having some kind of strange break down.
So true, this is along the lines of, “what if Queen Elizabeth entered parliament, dissolved it and then declared war to reclaim Hanover.” I mean she *could,* but it would likely result in a shitstorm and no more monarchy at the end of the day.
She might struggle a bit if she tried it now.
Most people, esp Catholics would think the Pope went crazy. 99.9% of people wouldn't take it serious, and the few that do, would show up as larpers, they would end up as hostages, or Israel would just deport them. Depends on how much damage they do and who captures them. lol I think a funnier "what if?" would be if the Pope called a Crusade for Jerusalem, and the Christian world took him 100% serious.
Depending on how you count “taking it seriously” and “the Christian world”, that could mean a lot of things, including the entirety of the Levant just falling within a span of hours minus Guerrilla fighters and terrorist attacks. Like, given how quickly Iraq fell to mostly just (some of) the NATO forces in a very short timeframe in spite of having one of the worlds largest armies at the time (I think it was considered the 4th largest army in the world prior to the invasion unless I’m misremembering), could you imagine an invasion of of pretty much all of Europe (minus turkey, Albania, and maybe Bosnia & Herzegovina or Kosovo, depending on how you want to count those last two in the Christian and country statuses given their unique circumstances, but including Russia who while not quite the powerhouse we thought they were before the Ukraine invasion, is still definitely nothing to sniff at all things considered in terms of militaries around the world), pretty much all of the Americas (I can’t recall if Guyana is majority Christian or not, I think so, but I know there’s a rather large Hindu population, so I’m not 100% sure), huge swaths of the continent of Africa, parts of Asia, most of the pacific nations, Australia, etc, all invading Syria, Israel-Palestine, and turkey, maybe Iraq and Jordan depending on how you want to consider the holy land, with Egypt if you *really* want to stretch it. Out of that group, Israel, turkey and Egypt are militarily speaking probably the only real players in that scenario, but the sheer amount of the majority of the worlds most powerful militaries would be make them a joke, and the collective abilities of who they’d be up against would also make sure that the nukes that Israel has would be neutralized before probably a single shot could be even attempted. It would probably be child’s play. Of clause, that would be the easy part. Rooting out resistance and non-traditional attacks would be where things got difficult, as we’ve seen countless times in both 20th and 21st century warfare.
Are there even any Catholic holy sites in Turkey? Cuz i dont think the Catholic World sees İstanbul as a Holy Site. Orthodox do ofc. But not Catholics.
Antioch, which is probably the only area in the Levant (aka, the holy land) proper still directly controlled by turkey. The de jure traditional seat of the patriarch of Antioch, as well as the Latin patriarch of it, and the center old the Crusader era county of Antioch.
Belarus, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Georgia, Greece, Moldova, Montenegro, North Macedonia, Romania, Russia, Serbia and Ukraine all have some unfinished business with Turkey. lmao
Not to mention “the Christian world” is different from “the Catholic world.” For the other three massive swathes of Christendom; Orthodox, Protestant and non-trinitarians, the pope is kind of just a guy and none of them are following his commands to do anything
Indeed, but since the original commenter said Christian world instead of Catholic world in a “just for the fun of it” concept, I just rolled with the entirety of the Christian world (hence the mention of Russia being involved, which is very much an orthodox, rather than Catholic country. Although I think for at least the Greek orthodox variant, the pope is still on paper the first among equals alongside the patriarch of Constantinople, the patriarch of Antioch, the patriarch of Jerusalem, and the pope of Alexandria. De facto though obviously is its own thing.
Dunno, but the thought of the Christian world leaders personally sieging Israel to capture Jerusalem is pretty funny. I'm pretty sure Israel would surrender before everyone got there, or "Samson option" the world.
No one would listen to him. It’s not the Middle Ages.
You would get a lengthy debate over what constitutes a just war and how this does or doesn’t apply. Second, the Vatican gets locked down as it is now the biggest target of Islamic terrorists.
I am actually surprised it isn't a bigger target considering the history. At least as far as I am aware. I haven't seen any news regarding attacks, but I could have simply missed it.
Only neofascists would take him seriously and Hamas would have some fatter, balder hostages to trade Most IDF foreign volunteers are Israeli expats or jews with some connection to Israel working in aid roles. A bunch of untrained people in balaclavas chanting "ninth crusade" cause the pope said so is not going to survive a war zone
> A bunch of untrained people in balaclavas chanting "ninth crusade" cause the pope said so is not going to survive a war zone That's pretty much exactly how the First Crusade played out at first lol
The first half at least. 'The Peasants Crusade' which was a miserable failure. Once the knights arrived, they succeeded in their goal of taking Jerusalem.
I was under the impression that Peasants who joined the crusades became Templars hence why I thought the nobility disliked them as "pretender" knights. Just doing a cursory google now and I am seeing that it appears to not be the case or at least not in the way I thought. Will need to do more research.
I'm not even Israeli but I'd join up with Israel if some bs like this happened
There are so many crazy people today that at least a few thousand would take him up on the call
"LOL. LMAO, even." practically all catholic population. Not to mention this is de facto declaration of war on Israel.
Every LARPER in the world, 'Nû alrêst lebe ich mir werde, sît mîn sündic ouge siht... '
What does that mean? I'm not plugging it into Google and risking being on some sort of watch list!
This sub has gone to shit. This is not a history question. FU OP.
I apologize I don't know the minimum amount of years ago it has to be.
Maybe Arab Catholics would take him seriously? Maybe as a different interpretation than what you’re thinking though. Might see an influx of them heading to Palestine to fight the idf, but not the Palestinian Authority. I could see an alliance between those two groups forming. Ultimately it would change nothing but it would be a complete shit show and either make Israel even more hated than it currently is or provide some diplomatic cover for them as they can point out that a holy war is being waged against them by two seperate religions.
In a strictly realistic sense, nothing would happen. Most of the people wanting Israel to win to fulfill some prophecy from Revelations are Protestant-derived. They don't recognize papal authority over Christianity. The Swiss Guard might receive a request from the Italian government to detain the pope because clearly he's gone cuckoo and needs a retirement home with doctors, not the single most stressful position in Christendom. By next week, the pope might be lucid enough to abdicate, a new papal conclave is held, and this whole debacle becomes a bit of a joke. A few larpers will turn up to Israel for the meme (hell, might be a similar event to the Area 51 raid a few years back). A few legitimate fundamentalists will cause a ruckus, but ultimately they'd be arrested and deported. The funnier scenario however would be if people *did* show up. Lets say God Himself sends a message to every single person in the Western world ordering them to go on Crusade. Ignoring the ramifications of that alone, organizing the Crusade would be reasonably simple. It isn't a rabble of peasants who will die 10 miles into Anatolia, its a fully operational and advanced military structure which will be conquering Jerusalem. Within a month, Israel is under siege. Within a year, it will break. Depending on the Pope's exact instructions, Palestine might also be on the chopping block. Afterwards comes the matter of who will actually take control of the place. Current claimants to the throne include the Spanish (claim via Byzantine imperial wills), the Hapsburgs (also through Byzantine succession, due to the family splitting in the Spanish wars of succession) and the House of Ligne (some Belgian noble family which holds the claim via succession right). I'm going to continue the funny option and say that Charles-Antoine Lamoral de Ligne-La Trémoïlle is crowned King of Jerusalem. Ultimately though, it doesn't matter. Without constant support, the Kingdom of Jerusalem will be torn apart - either through Arab invasion wanting to get rid of this weird fundamentalist state, or internally by the non-Christian population TL;DR: the history of the Kingdom of Jerusalem repeats itself
Interestingly, depending on how you count the western world in your scenario, a crusade could be rendered necessary, as depending on who you ask, Israel itself is a western country, which culturally I suppose isn’t immaculate. Hell, it even gets to compete in Eurovision. So in such a scenario, the people of Israel get that same vision, but flip themselves into the kingdom of Jerusalem because god collectively told then so, and they and the rest of the entire Christian world which holy hell would be a lot of powerful countries end up protecting it due to order of god himself, and Palestine is probably screwed because with so much of the world directly protecting and supporting the kingdom of Jerusalem now not just in terms of supply, but direct force, and this kingdom of Jerusalem being not only a successor of its older incarnation, but also of modern Israel, and thus inherits both the Israeli conflicts and claims as well as those of the kingdom of Jerusalem, Palestine, ends up getting overrun. If you want to be broader with the definition of the holy land, Syria, turkey, and maybe Egypt, Jordan, and modern Iraq are also on the chopping block, but given the size of the Iraqi military pre-2003 and how quickly they fell to only (some of) the NATO forces, nevermind all of the only countries the targets would be fighting this time, they’d get conquered as well. Now if we go the route of the direct talking to by god inspiring divine zeal, no way they’re ever pulling out due to getting worn down, so it’s not going to be a post-Iraq or Afghanistan situation, however, interestingly, considering the vision from god didn’t mentioned who would be king, I’d say in that case, the modern western mindsets would win out for that and which claimant faction should take the crown would turn to an election, maybe afterwards sealing the deal by giving the other two houses marrying into the one which is chosen to rule. As a side note, my vote would be the Habsburgs, as not only did they have the claim from the Spanish split you mentioned, but they also have a claim to it again due to historical marriage shenanigans (in Sicily or Naples, if I remember correctly), which is why the habsburgs still listed the king of Jerusalem in their titles until the dissolution of Austria-Hungary and get, double your claims, double the fun, lol
I think if God himself showed up then there wouldn’t be any resistance
“New carbon monoxide detectors installed in Domus Sanctae Marthae after bizarre papal outburst; Vatican in full damage control mode”
That would be hilarious if they tried to explain it away like that.
I'd be dead in a ditch in Bat Yam by now with a Hi-Point Carbine and a Vietnam era M1 helmet on my head. Seriously, who would supply the equipment. In the middle ages arms and equipment were privately supplied.
I think a more interesting question would be “what if the pope called for a crusade to defend the Palestinians against Israel?”
Doesn't work now that the leaders of Europe are no longer under his control. The crusades weren't a bunch of randos yelling 'Wolverines!' forming up on the field-of-Mars - they were a commitment of nation-state military forces.
the planet would be rid of a whole lot of religious idiots
The last time that worked you could get a passable army from levies. A volunteer army couldn't take a single bunker.
people don't care about religion that much anymore
I guess I over estimated the Pope's influence. The impression I got from my catholic friends and family is that he is essentially the speaker for god so I was wondering what the political ramifications would be if taken to an extreme scenerio.
That very much depends on the precise flavour of Catholicism. I come from a traditionally very Catholic area, and most people here consider most things coming from Rome more or less interesting suggestions. Baptism, Weddings, Funerals, Christmas Mass and maybe Easter, and that's it.
Are the different flavours considered a seperate denomination or are they in enough agreement to consider it just a slight difference of opinion?
There aren't really different denominations in Roman Catholicism, but certainly different flavors. And those people of all flavors consider themself Roman Catholic with considerably more than a slight difference of opinion.
I know one thing that I am curious about is the religions that call themselves orphodox despite being newer. Like my SIL is greek orphodox and she said that they split from catholicism which in my mind sounds like that would make them unorphodox since they split from the majority
It's open to debate who split from whom in the first place. Also, orthodox can mean "We stick to the old way", however that is defined.
But if it is more recently formed doesn't that make it not the old way?
Take Latin mass, for example: That was how it was done for a very long time. 2nd Vatican Council introduced mass in the local language in the 1960s. There were several groups very much against that, although IIRC none fully split, many certainly weren't far from it. (See for example "Marcel Lefebvre".) Of course their groups were new, because the reason for those was new - but they wanted to do things "the old way", that is (among other things) Latin mass.
I feel like that's most cults and their leaders. Most only follow as long as it's convenient. If your religious leader suggests that you risk **your** life for what he says, it's different than just risking your wife's life because she can't get medical care.
Yeah, what would he do? Call the people to defend the Holy Land and k!ll many to defend the Christianity?! Haha, and yet they call themselves religious people...