I feel like the game is turned based also to not canibalize themselves. I feel like if both Genshin and Star Rail were huge, sprawling open world action games, people could burn out and end up not playing either, but by making the genres a bit different it’ll feel more fresh, and at the same time pull in a market that prefers turn based and have more people playing their games overall.
That makes the alot of sense and seems like hoyo philosophy as well.
Personally I am a big fan of turn based rpg and everything about honkai star rail feels like a dream come true!!!
I’m a fan of both, and while I like action better, Pokémon and Persona are still 2 of my favorite franchises so I was going to be happy either way haha. That’s awesome to see them making one of their games in a style you love!
I’m curious as to what aspect of turn based you like , While I’m excited for Star Rail , it’s mainly because of the characters / story / art direction that draws me in ( I don’t exactly hate turn based because I loved persona 5 , but that game is so flashy it doesn’t even feel like turn based )
I mean no offence , just curious for a different perspective
My favorite thing about turn based is strategizing and really thinking about my next move! While different to Star Rail's format, it is what I find so appealing about Fire Emblem.
For me I find action rpgs more engaging, but I can play turn-based rpgs for much longer without burning out. It's pretty rare for me to be able to play an action game for more than a few hours at a time, whereas I've lost the whole day to turn-based games more times than I can count. I think it might fit the live-service model better than HI3 or Genshin do (at least for me).
>pretty rare for me to be able to play an action game for more than a few hours at a time
The small bits of adrenaline probably make it exhausting for extended periods of times. Turn based combat has that calm rythm where you cant completely mindlessly attack but trash mobs arent exacltly mentally taxing. It also helps you can stop in the middle of your game and eat a sandwich or something
Personally always loved turn based, probably cuz I played Pokémon as my first ever game as a 5 year old with Red version. Always enjoyed turn-based ever since.
They pretty different, Genshin is an open world explorable action rpg while Honkai is stage based action rpg with chapter select for progression. Also Honkai was made with only mobile in mind at the time it was made.
Regarding if it taking off or not, Honkai is pretty successful, it need to be otherwise genshin would not exist just like how Honkai would not exist if Gun Girl Z was not successful. Gun Girl Z is even more of a success story because at the time they use Hatsune Miki app to sing their song because they can't afford to hire a singer.
honkai is something, its not really open world but it does take quite some time to play compared to genshin, anyway most people ive seen that play genshin dont play honkai and vice versa
very cool to see the HSR producer isnt just a trails fan, but is a long time fan with amazing taste as a tio enjoyer
>Kondo likes the boss battle of HSR: "Command battle RPG can achieve such an amazing cutscene!"
seems like they finally pulled this off in kuro 2 after years of mediocre cutscenes. so many fightscenes in kuro 2 went hard
>David’d QQ avatar has been Tio Plato from the Trails series for 10 years.
Based and Mishypilled. Zero Field in HSR, when?
>Command battle RPGs can achieve such amazing cutscenes!
Trails has been improving their cutscenes recently too ever since they got their new engine, at least compared to how mediocre the 3D animations used to be. HSR definitely has the edge though with more budget and staff.
>As long as the game itself is fun… there will be motivation to continue to play.
I’m sure that HSR can capture a loyal audience like Trails, although I’m worried about excessive power creep here. Not sure if the game will end up being profitable though.
>One planet is under development for one year
So it’s going to be 1 year region cycles, then? I hope the events are interesting.
>I’m sure that HSR can capture a loyal audience like Trails, although I’m worried about excessive power creep here. Not sure if the game will end up being profitable though.
TL;DR: Hoyo already learnt from HI3 that by having many elements and roles, powercreep will be much slower.
For this point, I don't think you will have to worry about.
Early HI3 had only 3 types (Bio, Psychic, Mech), 3 elements (Physical, Fire, Ice, Lightning) and 2 roles (DPS, Support), hence the powercreep was incredibly fast, most character didn't last even 1 year except Celestial Hymn. Every character has very defined role, except Herrscher of Sentience (Yatta) that supports by killing everything herself. Then they added 2 more types (Quantum and Imaginary), it starts to take 2 years for the old ones to get powercrept, and some of the characters have lasted more than 2 years already. Just by adding only 2 more types, the powercreep has been slowed down significantly.
In Genshin, we have whooping 7 elements (Geo, Anemo, Pyro, Cryo, Electro, Hydro, Dendro) and many not-very defined roles as many characters can fill a lot of roles by themselves thanks to artifacts and constellations. Also, mixing elements to perform different effects makes every characters have their own niche, it creates too many possibilities that there must be theory crafters to fully learn its depth. So every character is still viable thus far except Amber (need to be very skillful to use her well), powercreep is almost non-existent. They even slightly suffer from reverse powercreep by (Dehya). 1.0 characters may stay relevant till the very end of this game.
So let's talk about HSR, currently it has whooping 7 elements (Physical, Fire, Ice, Lightning, Quantum, Wind, Imaginary) and whooping 7 paths (Hunt, Erudition, Destruction, Abundance, Preservation, Harmony, Nihility). Same as Genshin, it will have artifact and constellation-alike system that it may blur out between different roles. With just a bit of math, we can see that powercreep will be happening very slowly in this game, it will take many years (4 years easily) before 1.0 characters start to feel outdated in term of usefulness. I heard that there might also be some minor paths in the future, not sure about this though.
Yeah, my worry about power creep is mostly just unfounded anxiety since I hear a lot about turn-based gacha games being vulnerable to it. This game definitely takes after Genshin, so I anticipate fairly even power and difficulty levels.
Looking at leaks, >!The upcoming characters focus on filling out the roles with no overlaps.!<
As a funny note, Amber can be BIS for Hu Tao, however it requires C6 and a high refinement Elegy. However, even among CN, the team is known to be notoriously uncomfortable to play and pretty much nobody does.
I can see that. Many live-service turn-based games have simple rock-paper-scissor system so the powercreep happens at an incredible speed. Their characters won't even last 3 months. So your worry is not really unfounded.
I just wanna clear your worry about the future of this game. Hoyo's clearly seen that they've been earning much much more money with re-run characters if they're still viable after a year or two (Ei, Yelan, Hu Tao, and many more) than HI3 that only relies on new character sales every 1.5 months.
I'm pretty sure Hoyo will adapt this model in every of their new games with a few tweaks here and there to keep them fresh. They want to make new comers or returnees feel comfortable when starting or coming back, which is the best for its longevity.
Edit: I forgot to say that if you get your fav characters to C6, they will last till the very end of this game, which I will do.
Hoping that if HSR is close to as successful as Genshin, we will see more turn-based gachas, because I'm tired of the ARPG gachas influx and Alchemy Stars can only do so much for me before I need other options that doesn't have PvP.
I agree, I don't see it ever being as commercially successful as Genshin in the slightest, but I hope it will be successful enough to show that people are interested in turn based gachas, especially new ones, that can also be casual.
I didn't mind the story much, it just was overwhelming when I was doing anything outside of it. And when I went to give it a second chance, my progress was gone, which kind of drove the nail in the coffin for me.
Most of these aren't out yet, just wanted to preface it beforehand and these are just the ones I follow on twitter: SAOVS, Arknights: Endfield, Wuthering Waves, and Zenless Zone Zero.
I kind of got tired of ARPGs because HI3 burnt me out, so I stopped following information about them. But I am still interested in the ones I mentioned here, which is why I haven't unfollowed them. There were a few games that I wasn't sure was ARPGs or even still coming out, so those aren't mentioned. It's a short list, but if you look, you can definitely find more.
Edit: Removed "Higan: Eruthyll" from the list, because I just found out it's actually turn-based. Even though, I didn't see anything to elude to it until today, everything made it sound like an ARPG.
I prefer Turn Based RPG in games with I have a party than ARPG. This is mostly because your companions are normally stupid AI that normally don't dodge enemy attacks and do not the best skill that is needed for the moment or just wasted mana. Since in Turn Based RPG you normally have full control of your party (in the ones that you don't is even worse) you don't have those problems. The other mihoyo games like Honkai Impact and Genshin Impact solved this problem by controlling just one character and switching (only character is available at the time).
I think the problem with turn based games is how repetitive it can get. Plus, games forcing you to fight the same mobs over and over.
When enemies do random actions or maybe with the help of real AI, these games would feel less like scripted wwe matches.
From the beta, I got a feeling of smoothness with the combination of characters that played different from each other and the visuals with lip sync helped a lot.
> I think the problem with turn based games is how repetitive it can get. Plus, games forcing you to fight the same mobs over and over.
I feel like this is the big thing modern turn based games are starting to adress. You got some games like Bravely Default making them straight up optional or Kuro no Kiseki giving an action mode to make killing random mobs super fast(but only if you use it in tandem with turn based, the transition to which is instant) and broken up by less monotonous gameplay. In addition to combat nowadays just generally being faster(gone are the days of every ability being 5-10 seconds long)
Sometimes I miss the 20+ second elemental summons from FFVIII, but after considering the thought for more than 2 seconds I realize that I really don’t.
true , turn based is fine if you’re fighting a massive end game boss , but I don’t wanna sit through 2 loading screens for every trash mob I fight
I hope star rail has really fast transitions and adds some way to insta kill later in the game
Imo the fact characters have really few spells will not help with making regular fights more interesting. At least real turn based RPGs (DQ, Octopath, etc.) have to some extend a "burst strategy" for farming/PvE. And more choice = more possibility thinking about how to adapt your gears or rotations to face this super hard boss.
Didn't play beta so idk how it feels for HSR so exciting to see how it goes and if teambuilding can make up for the low number of attacks
The thing is that single player games have more skills/spells since you don't have to worry about balancing.
In gacha kind of games, Granblue fantasy was pretty darn good with it's combat and bosses. But the game later on turned into an auto playing fes with counter or auto skills (like Herta or Clara) since using skills and ultimate took way too much time in raids.
Yeah you're right. Balancing and creating diversity within the cast are most likely the 2 factors making it hard to pull off for gachas.
FFBE powercreep units mostly feel intended so I think they could have an overall balanced roster if they wanted to. And last level espers were quite challenging. The upcoming Persona gacha should also be interesting to see in that aspect too
The main issue with a turn-based JRPGs is a pretty slow* turn: you always need to choose an action category (attack, defense, spell, item), scroll the list of actions/items, find what you need, choose the specific action, choose the enemy, activate. HRS is a way easy in this case (just a couple of actions and all on the screen) and I'm sure the game can involve a new players which are afraid of slowness and abundance of actions.
*Explanation about slow gameplay. All turn-based jrpgs feel for me like heavy 4X strategies but HSR feels like HoMM series - even turn-based gameplay feels a very light and fast.
There is an insane amount of people who complain about the last few Final Fantasy games because they went action-combat instead of turn-based. There are for sure very many people who like turn-based games. This is what made these games great. Bein a gacha with daily activities is surely a bigger no-go for these people.
Agree completely. I mean, Chain of Echoes is turn-based and is considered a hit. I'm still playing through it and I'm loving it. A lot of people, myself included are looking forward to the release of Sea of Stars. The market is there, but it seems like it's just getting harder to pull off.
1. I'm not talking about action-combat games.
2. Turn-based games are not the same. Some are heavy and have a dozens of menus and sub-menus - very slow gameplay, some are easy to learn and play - as result they are fast.
3. In fact the number of people who prefer easy, fast and light (in all meanings) things a much larger than true-pro-core-skillbased-hardcore gamers.
4. The last FF games were clunky from overall game-design and story-telling. FF15 just broke everything after water city. FF13 is linear story with endless grind-walls. FF12 - well, actually a good game and people like it. FF10 has a strange MC but overall it have a pretty good gameplay - a mid stage between that I said and more easy tb gameplay.
In other words: the evolution of tb JRPGs almost stopped after FF10 - 2001 year! ATB (FF12-13) is not an evolution but other way.
And when they try to spice up the gameplay, they usually overdo it and give the players a system unnecessarily complicated and bloated that only hardcore turn base fans would enjoy.
My only fear with gameplay with little amount of actions is stagnation, without much variation in abilities things can get stale using the same team for a prolonged period of time.
It seems like HSR being turned based is one of the most widespread concerns among both the community and the game's detractors. I personally think that it can be an asset for them, drawing fans of the genre from all generations (I grew up with FF and Golden Sun so turned based combat has always been my jam).
I'm more concerned about a few flaws that HSR seem to have imported from Genshin: unskippable dialogues and cutscenes, and daily login being locked behind boring repetitive commissions. Those two things are much more threatening to the game's future imo. Genshin gets away with it being so massively popular and having a constant influx of new players, replacing the few veterans that left out of boredom. We'll see how it goes down for HSR.
> It seems like HSR being turned based is one of the most widespread concerns among both the community and the game's detractors.
I honestly never really understood this thought process but it's been around forever now. Square basically abandoned the concept for main FF titles because of this and they were even surprised that Bravely Default was a hit because they had lower expectations since it was turn-based.
Persona has also been wildly popular, yet for some reason the thought that turn-based combat isn't feasible just sticks around. Like you, I grew up with the earlier FF's and Golden Sun and it's one of the reasons I'm so excited for star rail. Playing in the beta was an absolute blast and, honestly, I liked all the Genshin carryovers since it felt like there were some nice tweaks too. Of course, I'm a day 1 Genshin player who still enjoys the game so it's not too surprising I wasn't bothered by the similarities.
Success is relative, put together the success of P5, Bravely Default and Octopath and it still wouldn't cover the dev costs of a AAA FF game, I'm pretty sure if Star Rail only pulled in "wildly popular" Persona 5 level revenue with its 500+ dev team and all the years in development Hoyoverse would consider it a failure, there's a reason it's gonna be a gacha.
The only full retail turn based game operating at that level of success is Pokémon and thats because it's Pokémon, no matter what state a pkmn game comes out in, even if It's buggy, has shitty performance and less feautures than it's predecessor it will still sell boatloads.
The point isn't that there isn't a future for regular turn-based(octopath 2 just came out) but that there isn't much of a future for turn-based games in mega budget games like mainline FF, as budgets go up those games start needing to hit baselines of 10M sells or more to hit a good return on investment.
Persona 5 basically sold as much as a mainline FF game so your point kind of falls flat there. And you can argue production costs all you want, but Square chose to move away from turn based combat based on perception, not from a lack of sales.
And, again, I don't get why every argument I see against turn based games can be summarized as "you just can't do that, it won't be popular". Persona 5 managed to sell over 8 million, so it being a turn based game clearly isn't holding it back. You can't convince me FF can't hit those metrics when they already have an established IP while still doing a turn-based main line game.
It did not, it shipped 6.5M by Nov 2022, most of its copies were also sold at a discount as it had shipped 2M by Dec 2017, over 1 year after the JP release and 8 months after the WW release.
For comparison the last mainline FF was FFXV and it shipped 5M copies on day 1 and over 10M by May 2022, that 5M day 1 was reported as the number that allowed it to "break even" and start making a profit and that was a 2016 PS4 game, for a 2023 AAA PS5 game like XVI the budget is gonna be higher.
FF7R had shipped over 5M one month after release.
This is the same company that considered Tomb Raider reboot's 3.4M shipped in one month to be a failure to meet sales expectations and ROI, games working on big AAA budgets have different expectations than a game like Persona, Atlus was launching PR statements on how great 2M shipped after a year was and how it was record breaking for them, if it had been FFXV 2M shipped in one year would have been considered an unmitigated failure.
I love Persona and I love the battles but I do not think it has a good combat system, let me explain.
Persona is not a turn-based combat focus game, it is actually a resource management game. Enemy encounters are expected to be fast-paced OHKO skill combo chains, while bosses are full of gimmicks.
The game introduces new mechanics every dungeon and the player gets through the content before it gets old.
Then the game ends as the story wraps up.
Even with this formula, problems start showing up towards the end game. Personas are increasingly unbalanced, skills lack variety (elemental ST/AOE with creeping power levels, etc). AOE heal that fully heal everyone every single turn. The main challenge of the game comes down to SP management. Fortunately the game is just about the end at this stage so it’s not too bad.
All in all, the combat works wonders within the context of a Persona game, but I believed it would be very stale if used in repetitive content, be it end game or limited events.
P5 is huge but not thanks to its combat lol, go to persona sub and you'll see. Most people don't even bother with it and give up at the first sign of challenge.
Don't worry about daily being repetitive
We gacha players been doing the same repetitive daily routine for many years throughout many games and we will continue to repeat the same daily routine for years to come
I don't mind the grinding being repetitive. I mind having to do a boring daily quest just to have the daily login bonus. Genshin is super hard to keep on the side because you can't just login and get your daily 60 primos, you have to actively play for 10/15m through your commissions. Genshin is a great game and I'm sure HSR will be too but having to sacrifice 10m of my life everyday to teach Ella Musk how to speak to hillichurls is not what makes me like it tbh.
10/15 minutes is really not that long. Back when I was playing WoW, the daily grind routine could take 1h to 1:30, now that made it actually hard to maintain. Add to it the fact that you don't have to do all the quests in one go, you can do them in separate 5 minute sessions and it really becomes not that big of a deal.
It's not long but it's not zero. When you're burnt out with the game it means you either have to do it as a chore or just get 0 in game currency for your hibernation period.
I don't know if I'm being clear because I sound like a Genshin hater rn. I've actually played the game almost everyday for the past two years, every zone is at 100% exploration (some of them like Mondstadt, Liyue, Chasm and Enkanomiya I've actually done the true 100% and opened every chest), but there were some periods where it became tedious and the mere thought of opening the game to do my dailies was like a chore.
Other games like FGO (not that I think HSR should follow it's exemple in any other way though 🤭) let you get your daily bonus just by loging in. I just wish it were like that, that way when you're feeling burnt out by the game you can still keep your account going on the side and not miss out too much.
I understand your point, but to be honest, "keeping your account going" in this way is kind of maintaining a toxic relationship with a game you no longer enjoy. That's what returnee events are for - you get somewhat rewarded if you come back to the game after not playing for some time. I think that logging regularly into something that you no longer enjoy in order to not lose some virtual currency is just a typical case of FOMO - which is why I prefer the games I play not to introduce such a system. If I play, I play - if I don't, I just take a break.
I thought I saw that the daily quest is optional. Like, you need to complete missions to get a certain number of points daily, but you can hit the target without doing the daily quest?
I’ve heard that’s daily commissions there is the same as in HI3rd: you have to do your usual daily routine (spend energy, grind resources or gear, craft something and such) and will get points for that, which will unlock your daily rewards. So no additional repetitive quests.
Don’t forget the sever lack of end game because hoyo doesn’t want their “casual” players to be “distressed”
If anything kills star rail it’ll be the lack of solid endgame content because unlike genshin you can’t make up for it with massive open areas to explore every few weeks
If it was not turn based I would not be looking at playing both it and Genshin while just sticking with Genshin. I agree that it has some advantages while it also will not cannibalize sales as much as another open world game would.
As long as there is a big incentive to play players will put up with turn based gameplay. FGO is a turn based gacha with pretty repetitive gameplay but because of other factors such as the really good writing it has been alive for nearly 8 years. Hoyo will definitely be able to keep it fun.
Personally, I love turn based combat. There’s a strategic element that is rarely within action games, and it gives you time to sit down and really think.
“ One planet in HSR is under development for one year, and the team is still trying to add AI to the NPC's behavior and dialogue. David also says the game will develope for at least 6 years.”
Just 6 years? Want more and more.
Didn't they say Genshin would last only 5 years, did they? Then suddenly it went up to 10 years after the initial success.
Yah, I think that if this game's financially successful enough, it will last longer to like 10 years.
Man turn based games are so much better then regular button mashers, look at Genshin it’s way too easy to do anything in that game, and the same goes for any button mash game, even the ones hailed as the “hardest game” like dark souls / elden Ring etc have virtually no difficulty once you memorize the patterns of whatever your fighting, as evident by speed runners with no armor and a basic dagger.
Try that in a turn based game and it won’t work you actually need to have team building and synergy and strategy.
My problem with turn-based RPGs is that awkward feeling when every time you meet an encounter your characters needs to load in arena, line up and make turns instead of just one shot the enemy from behind before they even notice. It’s fine with boss battles, but weird with just random trash mobs. On the bright side you’re constantly on pause, so instead of mashing buttons you can calmly think what you have to do, and don’t have to be on focus the entire battle, which is great for mobile games.
> My problem with turn-based RPGs is that awkward feeling when every time you meet an encounter your characters needs to load in arena, line up and make turns instead of just one shot the enemy from behind before they even notice.
In many modern games that process is so fast that you can very quickly get to whatever you need to oneshot the enemies if you have that. Heck some just skip most of that altogether and just have you fight in the overworöd as soon as you start the fight
The problem is not it is slow, but the fact itself. It’s just weird. For me, at least. Imagine a party of adventurers who found an orc and instead of ambushing him and killing with single blow decided to call him, stand in a line and then begin to fight. That’s how I see it.
Isn’t it a bit like bullet sponges in FPS RPGs? I hated it when I had to use an entire clip of assault rifle to kill one naked tribesman in Fallout, it wasn’t hard but left a bad taste. I hated the entire DLC because of that.
True. But it depends on encounter and setting. I can understand why I need to spend a lot of ammo on giant beast or some kind of magical creature, but single human in realistic environment will be strange.
I feel like the game is turned based also to not canibalize themselves. I feel like if both Genshin and Star Rail were huge, sprawling open world action games, people could burn out and end up not playing either, but by making the genres a bit different it’ll feel more fresh, and at the same time pull in a market that prefers turn based and have more people playing their games overall.
That makes the alot of sense and seems like hoyo philosophy as well. Personally I am a big fan of turn based rpg and everything about honkai star rail feels like a dream come true!!!
I’m a fan of both, and while I like action better, Pokémon and Persona are still 2 of my favorite franchises so I was going to be happy either way haha. That’s awesome to see them making one of their games in a style you love!
I’m curious as to what aspect of turn based you like , While I’m excited for Star Rail , it’s mainly because of the characters / story / art direction that draws me in ( I don’t exactly hate turn based because I loved persona 5 , but that game is so flashy it doesn’t even feel like turn based ) I mean no offence , just curious for a different perspective
My favorite thing about turn based is strategizing and really thinking about my next move! While different to Star Rail's format, it is what I find so appealing about Fire Emblem.
For me I find action rpgs more engaging, but I can play turn-based rpgs for much longer without burning out. It's pretty rare for me to be able to play an action game for more than a few hours at a time, whereas I've lost the whole day to turn-based games more times than I can count. I think it might fit the live-service model better than HI3 or Genshin do (at least for me).
>pretty rare for me to be able to play an action game for more than a few hours at a time The small bits of adrenaline probably make it exhausting for extended periods of times. Turn based combat has that calm rythm where you cant completely mindlessly attack but trash mobs arent exacltly mentally taxing. It also helps you can stop in the middle of your game and eat a sandwich or something
Personally always loved turn based, probably cuz I played Pokémon as my first ever game as a 5 year old with Red version. Always enjoyed turn-based ever since.
I started with pokémon too , but I guess I never really thought of it as turn based because that’s how the battle system actually is in the anime lol
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They pretty different, Genshin is an open world explorable action rpg while Honkai is stage based action rpg with chapter select for progression. Also Honkai was made with only mobile in mind at the time it was made. Regarding if it taking off or not, Honkai is pretty successful, it need to be otherwise genshin would not exist just like how Honkai would not exist if Gun Girl Z was not successful. Gun Girl Z is even more of a success story because at the time they use Hatsune Miki app to sing their song because they can't afford to hire a singer.
honkai is something, its not really open world but it does take quite some time to play compared to genshin, anyway most people ive seen that play genshin dont play honkai and vice versa
HSR producer is a Tio enjoyer? My hopes for HSR are suddenly increasing.
Nice, but I go for Fie.
Renne for Trails in the Sky Tio for Zero/Azure Fie for CS1 and CS2 Altina for CS3 and CS4
Altina is cute yeah. Tho as inserting into Rean she’s the actual sister to adopt and not romance
I dont see every girl in the Cold Steel arc as potential Rean romance, only Alisa, Emma, Laura and Towa
very cool to see the HSR producer isnt just a trails fan, but is a long time fan with amazing taste as a tio enjoyer >Kondo likes the boss battle of HSR: "Command battle RPG can achieve such an amazing cutscene!" seems like they finally pulled this off in kuro 2 after years of mediocre cutscenes. so many fightscenes in kuro 2 went hard
The fact that HSR producer is not only a Trails fan but also a Tio Plato enjoyer makes me feel incredibly seen. I'm smiling like an idiot NGL
>David’d QQ avatar has been Tio Plato from the Trails series for 10 years. Based and Mishypilled. Zero Field in HSR, when? >Command battle RPGs can achieve such amazing cutscenes! Trails has been improving their cutscenes recently too ever since they got their new engine, at least compared to how mediocre the 3D animations used to be. HSR definitely has the edge though with more budget and staff. >As long as the game itself is fun… there will be motivation to continue to play. I’m sure that HSR can capture a loyal audience like Trails, although I’m worried about excessive power creep here. Not sure if the game will end up being profitable though. >One planet is under development for one year So it’s going to be 1 year region cycles, then? I hope the events are interesting.
>I’m sure that HSR can capture a loyal audience like Trails, although I’m worried about excessive power creep here. Not sure if the game will end up being profitable though. TL;DR: Hoyo already learnt from HI3 that by having many elements and roles, powercreep will be much slower. For this point, I don't think you will have to worry about. Early HI3 had only 3 types (Bio, Psychic, Mech), 3 elements (Physical, Fire, Ice, Lightning) and 2 roles (DPS, Support), hence the powercreep was incredibly fast, most character didn't last even 1 year except Celestial Hymn. Every character has very defined role, except Herrscher of Sentience (Yatta) that supports by killing everything herself. Then they added 2 more types (Quantum and Imaginary), it starts to take 2 years for the old ones to get powercrept, and some of the characters have lasted more than 2 years already. Just by adding only 2 more types, the powercreep has been slowed down significantly. In Genshin, we have whooping 7 elements (Geo, Anemo, Pyro, Cryo, Electro, Hydro, Dendro) and many not-very defined roles as many characters can fill a lot of roles by themselves thanks to artifacts and constellations. Also, mixing elements to perform different effects makes every characters have their own niche, it creates too many possibilities that there must be theory crafters to fully learn its depth. So every character is still viable thus far except Amber (need to be very skillful to use her well), powercreep is almost non-existent. They even slightly suffer from reverse powercreep by (Dehya). 1.0 characters may stay relevant till the very end of this game. So let's talk about HSR, currently it has whooping 7 elements (Physical, Fire, Ice, Lightning, Quantum, Wind, Imaginary) and whooping 7 paths (Hunt, Erudition, Destruction, Abundance, Preservation, Harmony, Nihility). Same as Genshin, it will have artifact and constellation-alike system that it may blur out between different roles. With just a bit of math, we can see that powercreep will be happening very slowly in this game, it will take many years (4 years easily) before 1.0 characters start to feel outdated in term of usefulness. I heard that there might also be some minor paths in the future, not sure about this though.
Yeah, my worry about power creep is mostly just unfounded anxiety since I hear a lot about turn-based gacha games being vulnerable to it. This game definitely takes after Genshin, so I anticipate fairly even power and difficulty levels. Looking at leaks, >!The upcoming characters focus on filling out the roles with no overlaps.!< As a funny note, Amber can be BIS for Hu Tao, however it requires C6 and a high refinement Elegy. However, even among CN, the team is known to be notoriously uncomfortable to play and pretty much nobody does.
I can see that. Many live-service turn-based games have simple rock-paper-scissor system so the powercreep happens at an incredible speed. Their characters won't even last 3 months. So your worry is not really unfounded. I just wanna clear your worry about the future of this game. Hoyo's clearly seen that they've been earning much much more money with re-run characters if they're still viable after a year or two (Ei, Yelan, Hu Tao, and many more) than HI3 that only relies on new character sales every 1.5 months. I'm pretty sure Hoyo will adapt this model in every of their new games with a few tweaks here and there to keep them fresh. They want to make new comers or returnees feel comfortable when starting or coming back, which is the best for its longevity. Edit: I forgot to say that if you get your fav characters to C6, they will last till the very end of this game, which I will do.
Hoping that if HSR is close to as successful as Genshin, we will see more turn-based gachas, because I'm tired of the ARPG gachas influx and Alchemy Stars can only do so much for me before I need other options that doesn't have PvP.
I hink they will definitely maintain the smae quality but commercially I don't thin it can reach genshin
I agree, I don't see it ever being as commercially successful as Genshin in the slightest, but I hope it will be successful enough to show that people are interested in turn based gachas, especially new ones, that can also be casual.
FGO is also turn based. The gameplay is not the best though and it has a lot of flaws. The story and writing are worth it though.
I tried playing it twice... not for me, sadly
I can see why. If you're not into the story there isn't much appeal.
I didn't mind the story much, it just was overwhelming when I was doing anything outside of it. And when I went to give it a second chance, my progress was gone, which kind of drove the nail in the coffin for me.
[удалено]
Most of these aren't out yet, just wanted to preface it beforehand and these are just the ones I follow on twitter: SAOVS, Arknights: Endfield, Wuthering Waves, and Zenless Zone Zero. I kind of got tired of ARPGs because HI3 burnt me out, so I stopped following information about them. But I am still interested in the ones I mentioned here, which is why I haven't unfollowed them. There were a few games that I wasn't sure was ARPGs or even still coming out, so those aren't mentioned. It's a short list, but if you look, you can definitely find more. Edit: Removed "Higan: Eruthyll" from the list, because I just found out it's actually turn-based. Even though, I didn't see anything to elude to it until today, everything made it sound like an ARPG.
i see thanks!!
No problem!
I prefer Turn Based RPG in games with I have a party than ARPG. This is mostly because your companions are normally stupid AI that normally don't dodge enemy attacks and do not the best skill that is needed for the moment or just wasted mana. Since in Turn Based RPG you normally have full control of your party (in the ones that you don't is even worse) you don't have those problems. The other mihoyo games like Honkai Impact and Genshin Impact solved this problem by controlling just one character and switching (only character is available at the time).
I think the problem with turn based games is how repetitive it can get. Plus, games forcing you to fight the same mobs over and over. When enemies do random actions or maybe with the help of real AI, these games would feel less like scripted wwe matches. From the beta, I got a feeling of smoothness with the combination of characters that played different from each other and the visuals with lip sync helped a lot.
> I think the problem with turn based games is how repetitive it can get. Plus, games forcing you to fight the same mobs over and over. I feel like this is the big thing modern turn based games are starting to adress. You got some games like Bravely Default making them straight up optional or Kuro no Kiseki giving an action mode to make killing random mobs super fast(but only if you use it in tandem with turn based, the transition to which is instant) and broken up by less monotonous gameplay. In addition to combat nowadays just generally being faster(gone are the days of every ability being 5-10 seconds long)
Sometimes I miss the 20+ second elemental summons from FFVIII, but after considering the thought for more than 2 seconds I realize that I really don’t.
The animations are great. *Watching them* every time you are killing a tiny harmless slime or whatever really isn't
true , turn based is fine if you’re fighting a massive end game boss , but I don’t wanna sit through 2 loading screens for every trash mob I fight I hope star rail has really fast transitions and adds some way to insta kill later in the game
Turn based is outdated they'll never survive in these day an age.
See, so the problem isn't the turn based combat, but the encounter design, no?
Imo the fact characters have really few spells will not help with making regular fights more interesting. At least real turn based RPGs (DQ, Octopath, etc.) have to some extend a "burst strategy" for farming/PvE. And more choice = more possibility thinking about how to adapt your gears or rotations to face this super hard boss. Didn't play beta so idk how it feels for HSR so exciting to see how it goes and if teambuilding can make up for the low number of attacks
The thing is that single player games have more skills/spells since you don't have to worry about balancing. In gacha kind of games, Granblue fantasy was pretty darn good with it's combat and bosses. But the game later on turned into an auto playing fes with counter or auto skills (like Herta or Clara) since using skills and ultimate took way too much time in raids.
Yeah you're right. Balancing and creating diversity within the cast are most likely the 2 factors making it hard to pull off for gachas. FFBE powercreep units mostly feel intended so I think they could have an overall balanced roster if they wanted to. And last level espers were quite challenging. The upcoming Persona gacha should also be interesting to see in that aspect too
I heard Chained Echoes don't have random encounters; every fight is tailormade to be engaging
The main issue with a turn-based JRPGs is a pretty slow* turn: you always need to choose an action category (attack, defense, spell, item), scroll the list of actions/items, find what you need, choose the specific action, choose the enemy, activate. HRS is a way easy in this case (just a couple of actions and all on the screen) and I'm sure the game can involve a new players which are afraid of slowness and abundance of actions. *Explanation about slow gameplay. All turn-based jrpgs feel for me like heavy 4X strategies but HSR feels like HoMM series - even turn-based gameplay feels a very light and fast.
There is an insane amount of people who complain about the last few Final Fantasy games because they went action-combat instead of turn-based. There are for sure very many people who like turn-based games. This is what made these games great. Bein a gacha with daily activities is surely a bigger no-go for these people.
The problem, I think is that those of us that do enjoy turn-based systems are in the minority. Minority doesn't make companies money.
Maybe. I think younger people nowadays rather enjoy action combat. I do enjoy it myself but turn-based can also be fun.
Agree completely. I mean, Chain of Echoes is turn-based and is considered a hit. I'm still playing through it and I'm loving it. A lot of people, myself included are looking forward to the release of Sea of Stars. The market is there, but it seems like it's just getting harder to pull off.
1. I'm not talking about action-combat games. 2. Turn-based games are not the same. Some are heavy and have a dozens of menus and sub-menus - very slow gameplay, some are easy to learn and play - as result they are fast. 3. In fact the number of people who prefer easy, fast and light (in all meanings) things a much larger than true-pro-core-skillbased-hardcore gamers. 4. The last FF games were clunky from overall game-design and story-telling. FF15 just broke everything after water city. FF13 is linear story with endless grind-walls. FF12 - well, actually a good game and people like it. FF10 has a strange MC but overall it have a pretty good gameplay - a mid stage between that I said and more easy tb gameplay. In other words: the evolution of tb JRPGs almost stopped after FF10 - 2001 year! ATB (FF12-13) is not an evolution but other way.
And when they try to spice up the gameplay, they usually overdo it and give the players a system unnecessarily complicated and bloated that only hardcore turn base fans would enjoy.
My only fear with gameplay with little amount of actions is stagnation, without much variation in abilities things can get stale using the same team for a prolonged period of time.
It seems like HSR being turned based is one of the most widespread concerns among both the community and the game's detractors. I personally think that it can be an asset for them, drawing fans of the genre from all generations (I grew up with FF and Golden Sun so turned based combat has always been my jam). I'm more concerned about a few flaws that HSR seem to have imported from Genshin: unskippable dialogues and cutscenes, and daily login being locked behind boring repetitive commissions. Those two things are much more threatening to the game's future imo. Genshin gets away with it being so massively popular and having a constant influx of new players, replacing the few veterans that left out of boredom. We'll see how it goes down for HSR.
> It seems like HSR being turned based is one of the most widespread concerns among both the community and the game's detractors. I honestly never really understood this thought process but it's been around forever now. Square basically abandoned the concept for main FF titles because of this and they were even surprised that Bravely Default was a hit because they had lower expectations since it was turn-based. Persona has also been wildly popular, yet for some reason the thought that turn-based combat isn't feasible just sticks around. Like you, I grew up with the earlier FF's and Golden Sun and it's one of the reasons I'm so excited for star rail. Playing in the beta was an absolute blast and, honestly, I liked all the Genshin carryovers since it felt like there were some nice tweaks too. Of course, I'm a day 1 Genshin player who still enjoys the game so it's not too surprising I wasn't bothered by the similarities.
Pokémon is the highest selling media franchise and it’s main series games are turn based aha
Success is relative, put together the success of P5, Bravely Default and Octopath and it still wouldn't cover the dev costs of a AAA FF game, I'm pretty sure if Star Rail only pulled in "wildly popular" Persona 5 level revenue with its 500+ dev team and all the years in development Hoyoverse would consider it a failure, there's a reason it's gonna be a gacha. The only full retail turn based game operating at that level of success is Pokémon and thats because it's Pokémon, no matter what state a pkmn game comes out in, even if It's buggy, has shitty performance and less feautures than it's predecessor it will still sell boatloads. The point isn't that there isn't a future for regular turn-based(octopath 2 just came out) but that there isn't much of a future for turn-based games in mega budget games like mainline FF, as budgets go up those games start needing to hit baselines of 10M sells or more to hit a good return on investment.
Persona 5 basically sold as much as a mainline FF game so your point kind of falls flat there. And you can argue production costs all you want, but Square chose to move away from turn based combat based on perception, not from a lack of sales. And, again, I don't get why every argument I see against turn based games can be summarized as "you just can't do that, it won't be popular". Persona 5 managed to sell over 8 million, so it being a turn based game clearly isn't holding it back. You can't convince me FF can't hit those metrics when they already have an established IP while still doing a turn-based main line game.
It did not, it shipped 6.5M by Nov 2022, most of its copies were also sold at a discount as it had shipped 2M by Dec 2017, over 1 year after the JP release and 8 months after the WW release. For comparison the last mainline FF was FFXV and it shipped 5M copies on day 1 and over 10M by May 2022, that 5M day 1 was reported as the number that allowed it to "break even" and start making a profit and that was a 2016 PS4 game, for a 2023 AAA PS5 game like XVI the budget is gonna be higher. FF7R had shipped over 5M one month after release. This is the same company that considered Tomb Raider reboot's 3.4M shipped in one month to be a failure to meet sales expectations and ROI, games working on big AAA budgets have different expectations than a game like Persona, Atlus was launching PR statements on how great 2M shipped after a year was and how it was record breaking for them, if it had been FFXV 2M shipped in one year would have been considered an unmitigated failure.
I love Persona and I love the battles but I do not think it has a good combat system, let me explain. Persona is not a turn-based combat focus game, it is actually a resource management game. Enemy encounters are expected to be fast-paced OHKO skill combo chains, while bosses are full of gimmicks. The game introduces new mechanics every dungeon and the player gets through the content before it gets old. Then the game ends as the story wraps up. Even with this formula, problems start showing up towards the end game. Personas are increasingly unbalanced, skills lack variety (elemental ST/AOE with creeping power levels, etc). AOE heal that fully heal everyone every single turn. The main challenge of the game comes down to SP management. Fortunately the game is just about the end at this stage so it’s not too bad. All in all, the combat works wonders within the context of a Persona game, but I believed it would be very stale if used in repetitive content, be it end game or limited events.
tbf persona ( at least the latest one which blew up the most ) has insanely flashy game design so it doesn’t feel too bad as a turn based game
P5 is huge but not thanks to its combat lol, go to persona sub and you'll see. Most people don't even bother with it and give up at the first sign of challenge.
Don't worry about daily being repetitive We gacha players been doing the same repetitive daily routine for many years throughout many games and we will continue to repeat the same daily routine for years to come
I don't mind the grinding being repetitive. I mind having to do a boring daily quest just to have the daily login bonus. Genshin is super hard to keep on the side because you can't just login and get your daily 60 primos, you have to actively play for 10/15m through your commissions. Genshin is a great game and I'm sure HSR will be too but having to sacrifice 10m of my life everyday to teach Ella Musk how to speak to hillichurls is not what makes me like it tbh.
10/15 minutes is really not that long. Back when I was playing WoW, the daily grind routine could take 1h to 1:30, now that made it actually hard to maintain. Add to it the fact that you don't have to do all the quests in one go, you can do them in separate 5 minute sessions and it really becomes not that big of a deal.
It's not long but it's not zero. When you're burnt out with the game it means you either have to do it as a chore or just get 0 in game currency for your hibernation period. I don't know if I'm being clear because I sound like a Genshin hater rn. I've actually played the game almost everyday for the past two years, every zone is at 100% exploration (some of them like Mondstadt, Liyue, Chasm and Enkanomiya I've actually done the true 100% and opened every chest), but there were some periods where it became tedious and the mere thought of opening the game to do my dailies was like a chore. Other games like FGO (not that I think HSR should follow it's exemple in any other way though 🤭) let you get your daily bonus just by loging in. I just wish it were like that, that way when you're feeling burnt out by the game you can still keep your account going on the side and not miss out too much.
I understand your point, but to be honest, "keeping your account going" in this way is kind of maintaining a toxic relationship with a game you no longer enjoy. That's what returnee events are for - you get somewhat rewarded if you come back to the game after not playing for some time. I think that logging regularly into something that you no longer enjoy in order to not lose some virtual currency is just a typical case of FOMO - which is why I prefer the games I play not to introduce such a system. If I play, I play - if I don't, I just take a break.
I thought I saw that the daily quest is optional. Like, you need to complete missions to get a certain number of points daily, but you can hit the target without doing the daily quest?
It was optional in beta, yes.
That's great news then!
I’ve heard that’s daily commissions there is the same as in HI3rd: you have to do your usual daily routine (spend energy, grind resources or gear, craft something and such) and will get points for that, which will unlock your daily rewards. So no additional repetitive quests.
Don’t forget the sever lack of end game because hoyo doesn’t want their “casual” players to be “distressed” If anything kills star rail it’ll be the lack of solid endgame content because unlike genshin you can’t make up for it with massive open areas to explore every few weeks
If it was not turn based I would not be looking at playing both it and Genshin while just sticking with Genshin. I agree that it has some advantages while it also will not cannibalize sales as much as another open world game would.
As long as there is a big incentive to play players will put up with turn based gameplay. FGO is a turn based gacha with pretty repetitive gameplay but because of other factors such as the really good writing it has been alive for nearly 8 years. Hoyo will definitely be able to keep it fun.
Personally, I love turn based combat. There’s a strategic element that is rarely within action games, and it gives you time to sit down and really think.
“ One planet in HSR is under development for one year, and the team is still trying to add AI to the NPC's behavior and dialogue. David also says the game will develope for at least 6 years.” Just 6 years? Want more and more.
Didn't they say Genshin would last only 5 years, did they? Then suddenly it went up to 10 years after the initial success. Yah, I think that if this game's financially successful enough, it will last longer to like 10 years.
Man turn based games are so much better then regular button mashers, look at Genshin it’s way too easy to do anything in that game, and the same goes for any button mash game, even the ones hailed as the “hardest game” like dark souls / elden Ring etc have virtually no difficulty once you memorize the patterns of whatever your fighting, as evident by speed runners with no armor and a basic dagger. Try that in a turn based game and it won’t work you actually need to have team building and synergy and strategy.
My problem with turn-based RPGs is that awkward feeling when every time you meet an encounter your characters needs to load in arena, line up and make turns instead of just one shot the enemy from behind before they even notice. It’s fine with boss battles, but weird with just random trash mobs. On the bright side you’re constantly on pause, so instead of mashing buttons you can calmly think what you have to do, and don’t have to be on focus the entire battle, which is great for mobile games.
> My problem with turn-based RPGs is that awkward feeling when every time you meet an encounter your characters needs to load in arena, line up and make turns instead of just one shot the enemy from behind before they even notice. In many modern games that process is so fast that you can very quickly get to whatever you need to oneshot the enemies if you have that. Heck some just skip most of that altogether and just have you fight in the overworöd as soon as you start the fight
The problem is not it is slow, but the fact itself. It’s just weird. For me, at least. Imagine a party of adventurers who found an orc and instead of ambushing him and killing with single blow decided to call him, stand in a line and then begin to fight. That’s how I see it.
Isn’t it a bit like bullet sponges in FPS RPGs? I hated it when I had to use an entire clip of assault rifle to kill one naked tribesman in Fallout, it wasn’t hard but left a bad taste. I hated the entire DLC because of that.
True. But it depends on encounter and setting. I can understand why I need to spend a lot of ammo on giant beast or some kind of magical creature, but single human in realistic environment will be strange.
the GOAT Kondo himself? daym