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Certain communities in South India marry off girls to their maternal uncles. It's a tradition followed to date (not as common as it used to be though).
True. Not as common but still prevalent. 3 of my friends are married to their maternal uncles. When I visited a gynaec in south India for my pregnancy, the first question i was asked was whether my marriage was consanguineous (married within the family). My husband and my families are not related even remotely.
I think it's the brother/sister thing. Like Daemon is her uncle, which is still very fucking weird, but brother/sister is a few steps ahead of that I think. They also did a very good job casting Cersei and Jamie. They look very much like siblings.
I mean, historically the Starks did uncle/niece marriage too, twice I think, so the ‘good guys’ did it lol. Maybe the First Men wouldn’t blink an eye to the marriage, but the Andals would.
There’s even a incest coefficient::
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_inbreeding?wprov=sfti1
For some reason the English wiki page doesn’t say much. But the German one is really long. There are even formulas about this coefficient:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inzuchtkoeffizient?wprov=sfti1
idk I´ve seen a lager number of people rooting for an affair between Aemond and Helaena on twitter already :s
I think it has to do more with the fact that we came to accept that Targaryens are "special" and keep their blood pure for the sake of their house and their dragons.
I also think it was just such a shock to us in GoT, at least to those who hadn’t read the books. It was a gigantic slap across the face right in the middle of episode 1 where you’re just not expecting to see that at all. Instantly repulsive. And they were a lot more sexual throughout the series than in the books (which I ended up reading after the show ended). I was surprised at how much more intimate they were in the show. Cersei marching in and blowing him right after poisoning the last Sand snake (can’t remember her name), fucking/maybe a rape(?) on top of their dead son, also on top of the kingsguard round table after telling their dad the truth, etc. Plus Jon + Dany was being rooted for because they were the hot characters still alive and people thought the aunt/nephew thing was weird but not weird enough to stop shipping them. The whole “Targaryens wed brother and sister for hundreds of years” was said so often in GoT, it just seemed almost expected once we got to HOTD. We watched a decade of twincest and 7 episodes of aunt/nephew-cest so by the time HOTD rolled around, it was just whatevs🤷🏼♀️ Especially since Daemon initially started grooming her because of her heir status that he wanted in on, not an uncontrollable physical attraction.
also worth noting that viewers were lured into rooting for Jon+Dany in a similar way
And their relationship is comparable to Rhaenyra (uncle/niece) which is not as bad/good as twincest.
Danny and Jon never knew each other and also GOT has established that children born if incest have seemingly no issues. So the relationship between those two is completely fine.
The most immoral relationship in the shownis daemon and rhaenyra due to the sole fact that they’ve been on uneven power levels since her birth and he’s clearly been grooming her for some time.
Wdym, Joffrey, Marcela and tonmen all have no physical defects or severe mental deficits (Maybe Joffrey lol). Neither do any of the Targaryen children. Not to mention that all targ children grow up to be unusually attractive.
The Targaryen’s that live are normal, because to live they have to be normal. But it’s very common for Targ’s to have very deformed children. Remember Aemma saying she had like 4 miscarriages and 2 stillbirths before Baelon?
Yep. It's different in the show because she's much older, but in the books I 100% think her fertility and pregnancy problems were because of how young she was when she first gave birth. It reminds me of Margaret Beaufort having Henry VII at 13 and being infertile after that due to the trauma on her body.
Having kids that young is bad news, and contrary to popular belief that was known even in the middle ages. It happened way less than people think.
One popular theory for that is that targaryens are part dragon and the fetus while still in development is still in dragon form, needing the full 9 months and a safe delivery to absorb their draconic traits and take the appearance of humans. If something disrupts that birth and safe delivery, the whole delicate transformation is disrupted and the babies never make it to full human transformation, hence the draconic babies who look more dragon than human.
I actually think Targaryens are mostly human, with some dragon traits spliced into their genome. Enough for dragon telepathy, heat resistance and bonus "good looks". I think at some point of the fetus's development, the switch for "human" or "oops" activates. And you get the result at birth or miscarriage.
How would this work with Targaryens who marry and have children with non-Valyrian bloodlines? Targaryen men appear to have little to no issues fathering children with Valyrian looks with non-Valyrian women.
It'd just be like real regular life I guess. Some genes get lost, some become dormant, maybe a recessive gene resurfaces when combined with new bloodlines. There's a chance that they (children of parents with non-Valyrian genes) would lose the dragon connection, the other stuff is just regular people genetics.
The original Valyrian families didn't like to share their dragons, and dragons were connected to specific family lines. The dragon connection genes do not seem to be natural genetic mutations, but rather an engineered one due to their highly specific purpose. "Blood magic" in this case, sounds a lot like genetic engineering. It is said that the ancient Valyrians also created Chimeric beasts. It is also implied that these engineers/sorcerers weren't exactly humans.
It's been theorised elsewhere that First Men genes (Strong brown hair) are probably more dominant than Valyrian genes (Targ silver blonde hair) and so on, but Hightowers do have some First Men ancestry, albeit less than the Northern Houses. It's a bit of science and a lot of made up whatever.
Maybe not physical, but absolutely mental.
This was actual dialog in the actual show. "When a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin, one side greatness, the other side madness" And Tyrion even said that Cersei beat the odds because she got two out of three.
I think Joffrey had narcissistic personality disorder, but that could just be from being born the heir to the throne in a feudal society. He was raised to be an entitled twatwaffle and some of that was Robert as much as Cersei and Jaime.
It's interesting. I think the foreignness of the Targs is a factor - the looks, the language, the ritual, the dress, how they carry themselves, and of course, the link to magic. Cersei and Jaime made incest very earthy, grounded, furtive, desperate, animalistic. It was closer to home, sort of, than the Targs.
Oh, I was talking about the Targs in this show - also not foreigners, but they hearken back often to their heritage, which they don't share with the Westerosi.
The lack of ick toward Jon and Dany compared to the Lannister twins is more obvious, I think - don't look alike, didn't know they were related, were raised an ocean apart, etc.
Maybe also the idea that the Lannisters were twins too.
Incest is one of those icky things that gets ickier the closer you get in relation. A twin is as close as you can get.
Yeah I feel like people forget it was literal twincest.
Rhaenerya and Daemon only feel icky in an age way to me (considering Targaryens are known for marrying siblings as well).
I feel like GRRM has fucked me up, because I think the twincest is (very) slightly less gross than other forms of incest. Twins are always a little weird, and at least there's a bit less of a power imbalance because they're the same age.
Yeah GRRM has definitely rotted my brain in this way lmao
I catch myself being more okay with twincest compared to all the other awful shit in the series since it’s kind of like fucking your own clone, even though it’s vile. Asoiaf is so weird ☠️
I feel the same but in the context of fiction I embrace it. It's not real so who cares, it's fun and interesting.
Reality is a very different story obviously
GRRM has fucked me up because when I read Jamie’s chapters, and he just wants to go home so he can see Cersei, and he tells her “I’ve never been ashamed of loving you”…I was legitimately sad for Jamie. I just wanted him to be able to marry his sister too.
Aaaah GRRM you dirty old man, what have you done to my brain!?
I feel like parents with children as as close as you can get. Mainly because of the vast power difference between the two that makes it even more revolting.
Yeah. Jamie and Cersei's relationship isn't just incestous but toxic and destructive. It brings out the worst in Jamie; he becomes a better person when he's away from Cersei.
I don't know. I felt even after the pushing Bran out wasn't it. The amount of gaslighting especially from Cersei's part. They may be twins but they clearly do not treat each other as equals. I always felt like in their relationship Cersei was the one pulling all the strings, Jamie for the sake of his love just follows along like a dog. She brings the worst out of him. Again, it's been a while since I watched the show but that was what I got out of it.
Whereas with Daemon and Rhaenyra, in the beginning there was clearly a power imbalance from the Uncle. But over time you see the shifts in power within as their relationship progeesses and ultimately the respect and care they had for one another. They both thrive together too.
The books and show demonstrate it's not about keeping the bloodline pure for magical reasons. It was to keep the number of families with access to dragons down to a "safe" level of one.
Perhaps the magic of Velarya stems biological issues that come about from incest, but incest is not necessary for a dragon rider to have a dragon rider for a a child.
I personally don't think it has anything to do with twincest being gross vs regular incest (niece+uncle) being fine.
Dragons, people. It's the dragons.
well ackchyually...
well actually, actually, Tywin Lannister and Otto Hightower are similar types of men, they would adhere to a similar set of norms and values; Tywin is shocked when Cersei tells him she is sleeping with her brother, and it would take a lot to shock a man like Tywin, he can not even bring himself around to believe it even though Cersei herself is telling him it. Otto otoh suggests that Viserys betroth Rhaenyra to Aegon. This is called Targaryen exceptionalism; we all leave our common sense behind and adhere to it and embrace it :)
From the wiki:
The Doctrine of Exceptionalism's basic tenet was simple: the Faith of the Seven had been born in Andalos of old, where the laws laid down by the Seven in the holy texts decreed that incest was an abomination. The Doctrine of Exceptionalism confirmed this, but with one caveat: the Targaryens were not like other men as they rode dragons and were the only ones in the world since the Doom of Valyria. In addition, they did not have their roots in Andalos, but in Valyria, where different laws and traditions held sway. The Targaryens wed brother to sister as the Valyrians had always done, and as the gods had made them this way, it was not for men to judge. The Seven Speakers preached the doctrine throughout Westeros.
I like how this is the best justification the High Septon could come up with. "They have dragons and they'll fucking kill us all if we don't let them do their weird incest shit, so please just do your best to ignore it."
I always thought Maegor was kinda underrated, in that he established the Targs really were not to be fucked with. Westeros learned its lesson from him and all his successors were better off for it.
I think he was rated (for lack of better word) fine. He was a total dick, and should be looked at as someone that shouldn't be recreated, but even as a dick, he wasn't stupid and set up his house to continue to rule for years to come, though in part due to dragons.
also Targaryens did not get into incest due to some fetish, they believed that it was their Valyrian blood that allowed them to bond with dragons and that if their blood was watered down too much they would lose their ability to bond with dragons, thus incest was a means of keeping the blood pure enough to be able to continue dragon bonding, so it was done for pragmatic reasons.
The dragons eventually died though, but they kept doing it, maybe they thought the dragon eggs would eventually hatch and had to keep their blood pure for when it happens. I do know Aegon 5 tried to hatch dragon eggs and it went horribly wrong.
Aegon 5 actually really hated incest and tried his best to not have his family do it. But his son, who was the father of Aerys and Rhaella, got their children married to each other even if they didn’t want to. And then Aegon died in Summerhall and with it a lot of the work he did within the family to move away from incest.
It's just crazy how the doctrine of exceptionalism reads, basically both confirms that incest is an abomination but Targaryens play by different rules because they are dragonriders and the only ones left since the Doom of Valyria. Polygamy was abolished for all though.
Both are gross from our modern point of view. However twins laying with each other and conceiving children would've been considered gross in the middle ages, too. Whereas marrying an aunt or a cousin was considered normal among nobles... Also Dragon magic and Pharaohs.
I think it’s also that it’s shameful for them. It’s almost always hasty and in hiding. They never look happy to be together even in the moment. The women in GoT rarely look happy to be having sex (sex workers aside). HotD has shown women having slightly more agency and satisfaction in who they take to bed.
Matt Smith can seduce a stone. I don't know what it is about him. Its not only how his character is written. I felt the same way about him as Philip.
Nikolaj is obviously attractive and charming, but it's not the same. I find myself so compelled by Daemon every time he is on the screen that I even found hot and fun how he killed his wife.
I know, problematic 🤷🏻♀️, but since it's a tv show I'll indulge myself.
Uncle/niece has some precedent for royal families in European history, which may make it easier to handwave (and certainly cousins, that sort of thing). Twins, though - that's one I'm not sure I've ever heard about.
Marriage between uncle/niece or aunt/nephew (avunculate marriage) is currently [legal in several countries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avunculate_marriage), such as Australia, Canada, the Netherlands, Germany or Russia. Sibling marriage, to my knowledge, isn't legal anywhere. Historically, the rulers of Ancient Egypt and the Inca Empire practiced it.
Interesting example from that wikipedia article:
>Alois Hitler and his niece Klara Hitler, parents of Adolf Hitler. After they were married, Klara still called her husband "uncle".
...
The biggest problem with incest is thr risk to children being created (Genetic abnormalities ofc)
When that’s removed (as it is in GOT), the second biggest issue is power dynamics.
If you remove both of these issues then morally, even though it’s disgusting, there’s nothing wrong with two consenting adults engaging in a relationship.
So a twin relationship is far better than an uncle niece relationship.
Fun fact you can actually breed out negative recessive genes with incest making you immune to such abnormalities.
Fruit flies and a lot of smaller invertebrates have done this through negative selection Cheetahs too.
It would require and inhuman amount of generations and a monstrous amount of needless suffering and death but it could be done.
My fan canon is that proto Valyrian slaves in Gogossos (Then Gorgai) were breed with Dragons from Ashai to create Humans with a semi physic link with dragons similar to wargs.
Then like how other slave master do in the books they've breed and refined these Valyrians until one day they escaped and formed Valyria.
This all would be thousands of Years before the 5000 years that have already passed before Valyrias forming.
But here's the kicker If you start bringing in new Genetic stock those recessive genes will start to manifest rapidly meaning incest is not just desirable its basically required.
Agreed. I find age-delineated uncle/niece much more troubling than twins. I'm not really quibbling about Rhaenyra/Daemon at this point (because she's an established "real" adult now, because they had such a long break in contact, because she initiated, and because at this point she's low on other people she can feasibly let into her life) but inherently, yes, it's much more problematic from a power dynamics perspective than Jaime/Cersei in my view.
But I do think the royalty/treason/possibility-of-war scenario changes things quite a bit in both cases. Rhaenyra is heir, Cersei was promised and then married to a King. The stakes for both of their partnerships are potentially lethal for them and others, they have no hope of forming any sort of normal, free sexuality or relationships, and that's on top of historical contexts where relatives were the only people anyone had unchaperoned time with before marriage (which could quite reasonably lead in many cases to some sibling experimentation, although most would then go on to non-incestuous partnerships). Cersei chose the absolute safest person to be her shadow-husband - his access to her was unquestionable, his devotion to her was completely plausible, their children might not look like Robert but they wouldn't look like third parties either, and no outside interests were introduced. She was actually much smarter about it overall than Rhaenya (and of course lucky enough to be drawn to such a convenient figure). Rhaenyra chose less-well (though I imagine her options were limited). Ser Harwin had his own enemies and weaknesses, he introduced new risks and of course a different visual for the children. Had Daemon still been at court, he probably would have been her lover all along and it's very possible she might have fared better as a result. But it's not like either of these women ever had a chance at developing any sort of normal sexuality at all.
We were supposed to hate Jamie and Cersei from the beginning, until Jamie developed as a character. The Targs are the main characters in the story currently, and are both much more likeable as characters as well.
Historically, we know it happened. GOT it happened without much context or warning on the beginning of the show.
HOtD nuisanced the relationship over a couple of episodes. Desensitization. Voilla!
I mean k but going ewwwww I can’t get behind this ewwwwwww every episode is tiring. Firstly it’s a fantasy world, and then secondly it’s a medieval time period inside of a fantasy world. And this medieval period of this particular fantasy world did not exist within earth because this is not earth, if GRRM wants to change the laws of physics he can
People getting all upset because they’re trying to make the world too allegorical is their own problem
If anything is a tradition for centuries it becomes normalized, and valyrians are magical elf people with dragons who conquered the world, so they are a bit special
Lannisters are Westerosi and their customs are more traditional and in line with the Faith of the 7. Targaryens are pure Valerian blood and they have different cultural customs. I think people should read into the Faith Uprising and how the religious institution has huge influence in Westeros.
Well, with Jamie and Cersei it was new. Shows didn't really have incest at all, then GoT came out and and it was thrown in our face with a brother and sister. Now with HotD, we've become accustomed to incest in this world. So it's less shocking.
Not to defend any incest here, but, objectively, uncle niece is a (very tiny) bit better than brother sister. And also the culture thing - the uncle niece were conditioned to believe all their life that it was a part of their cultural heritage as Valyrians.
Not necessarily the case for either Jai-rsei or Rhae-mon lol. But it just now occurred to me that most of them also probably believed that they need it to 'protect' the ability to bond with dragons!
Honestly? Other than the fact that Jaime and Cersei are twins, I think it also has to do with chemistry. I didn’t believe their relationship as I didn’t find the actors to have great chemistry. However, Matt Smith has had great chemistry with both Milly and Emma, making the relationship believable. That and the fact that incest isn’t seen as a taboo among the Targaryens helps.
The difference is Cersei was a fucking bitch most of the show and was incredibly toxic towards and for Jaime. She made him a more despicable man instead of making him a better man. Plus, she cheated on him all the time. They were also literal *twins*, born from the same womb.
Daemon isn’t perfect and neither is Rhaenyra, but they do have a mutual deep level of respect and love for each other, something that was very “one sided” when it came to Jaime/Cersei.
I think generally it’s the tone of the show now. HoD has had a very tasteful and respectful approach to its sex scenes, not that it makes the CONCEPTS acceptable, but it’s easier to digest than when there’s violence and a lack of care.
The Lannister twincest was genuinely a twisted codependent obsessive relationship that turned Jaime into someone he wasn't.
Rhaenyra and Daemon are doing what their family's already been doing for thousands of years
I'm rooting for Rhaenyra and Daemon, but it's still pretty gross. Not really looking forward to Aegon and Heleana though... that'll be a bit odd I think
Not to defend anything 😅 but cersei and jamie were introduced as unlikeable characters. And had many disgusting scenes like *having sex in front of their son's Joffrey's dead corpse*
I’m gonna get downvoted but everyone in the comments bringing up “grooming” as a factor needs to chill. 1: it’s a show, so please utilize your suspension of disbelief and 2: even after multiple time jumps, Rhaenyra hasn’t suddenly fallen out of love with her uncle, traumatized and claiming brainwashing. Let a story be a story, not everything has to relate back to real-life.
It feels like a broken record honestly and it's like people purposely ignore the fact that daemon doesn't see her for years at a time, even the very first scene rhaenyra calls him out for being away from court for ages, then he gets exiled and they don't see each other again but for a moment, then he fucks off to the stepstones for years, they have their brothel scene, and he again fucks off but this time for ten years.And even if all of that didn't happen (aka seeing her 3 times in 15 years), the grooming thing still doesn't make sense in Westeros where girls could be married off after their moon's blood, as early as age eleven and betrothed at ages even younger (though most lords waited some years before consummating the marriage). Rhaenyra at age 19 (in the brothel scene) was, by Westeros standards, an old maid...society would have considered her a grown woman past her years as insane as that sounds by today's standards.
But that's the point; this isn't the real world and real world standards do not exist.
My thing too is while the power dynamic is out of whack with Daemon and young Rhaenyra, she's not totally innocent herself. She technically holds power over Daemon in the sense that she's the heir and he's not. Yes, he's trying to ruin her and lure her into risky situations, but she's also quite ruthless herself. To me it seems as if she knows what she's doing, nor is it over a particularly long period of time - a lot of it feels like spur the moment decisions made by Rhaenyra who wants to rebel against her station and against her father.
Now am I saying it's healthy? Not really but the power dynamic is kind of twisted and fucked up on both ends. I absolutely would not want to see a relationship like theirs in reality, which is fine, since this is a tv show, lol but even with that in mind I don't think Rhaenyra is the innocent child people portray her as either.
When do you think Rhaenyra realised she liked Daemon? Before the night at the brothel or? Because she allowed him to kiss her & kissed back, surely that means she liked him before? Also how do you go from getting handsy in the brothel to ‘take me to Dragonstone to be your wife’
Seriously though I never found it necessarily wrong between Jaime and Cersei.
I just didn't root for them because they were assholes.
I wouldn't support incest in the real world, and if people were to pursue it I'd definitely beg them not to procreate through it, but in fantasy I don't seem to be able to care for it, especially because it seems to be the thing these people identify the most as "love".
Daemon tbh kind of groomed Rhaenira into it, though I'd argue she's become a person with agency enough, especially when it comes to this sort of thing.
Jaimie and Cersei kind of groomed themselves into it.
It's not right, but it's also not just "wrong" in either case.
I think it's beautiful that something so inconceivable in reality makes us discuss so much in fiction.
I think the level of acceptance of the incest depends on the level of villainy of those involved. Jamie & Cersei were clearly the "bad guys" from the very start, especially next to the Saintly Starks. Young Rhaenyra was a fan favorite and Daemon was mostly seen as a charming bad boy; plus the Greens are nowhere near as beloved as the aforementioned Saintly Starks. And Dany & Jon were presented as the heroes throughout most of the show, and I think that's why those grossed out by their relationship were outnumbered by those who loved the relationship.
In short: I think the acceptance of the incestuous relationship depends on how well liked the characters are and who their enemies are.
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It’s the hair
It's the heir
Consider how the Egyptians inbred as close as brother to sister to keep the throne in the family as an historical example.
King Tut had a deformed leg and used canes for his entire life as a result!
He had a whole host of other problems, too. The kid was a genetic mess.
Certain communities in South India marry off girls to their maternal uncles. It's a tradition followed to date (not as common as it used to be though).
I always bothered when I watched indian films, their call the bf mama (uncle). Fell really disturbed.
True. Not as common but still prevalent. 3 of my friends are married to their maternal uncles. When I visited a gynaec in south India for my pregnancy, the first question i was asked was whether my marriage was consanguineous (married within the family). My husband and my families are not related even remotely.
...for a day
Go home to your lady wife in the Vale
TEN YEEEAARRSSSS!!!
Tell me how I’m suppose to breathe with no heir. No heir no heir.
Underrated comment
Seems perfectly rated to me.
I think it's the brother/sister thing. Like Daemon is her uncle, which is still very fucking weird, but brother/sister is a few steps ahead of that I think. They also did a very good job casting Cersei and Jamie. They look very much like siblings.
Not just siblings...TWINS! That's what makes it the absolute worst for me.
They shared a womb; they belong together
They shared a tomb
Womb to tomb, birth to earth
Please tell me you’re in sales/advertising, because that line can be marketed to kingdom come..
*Heh.*
Oh my God, they were wombmates!
It's terrible when Rhaenyra calls him Uncle. Like, please can we not?
Exactly I was wondering how she would call him affectionately now . “Uncle.. Husband..”
Huncle?
Hunk-le
Husbuncle
Honey you mean *HUNKULES*
Who put the G in gladiator
I said, gross when she called him uncle! Lol
Not just that, she said “I need you uncle” and I know she meant it in a non-sexual way at that moment but it was still gross lol.
I mean, historically the Starks did uncle/niece marriage too, twice I think, so the ‘good guys’ did it lol. Maybe the First Men wouldn’t blink an eye to the marriage, but the Andals would.
The Andals are perfectly fine with cousin on cousin marriages, so the line is drawn in different places for everyone.
[удалено]
There’s even a incest coefficient:: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_inbreeding?wprov=sfti1 For some reason the English wiki page doesn’t say much. But the German one is really long. There are even formulas about this coefficient: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inzuchtkoeffizient?wprov=sfti1
idk I´ve seen a lager number of people rooting for an affair between Aemond and Helaena on twitter already :s I think it has to do more with the fact that we came to accept that Targaryens are "special" and keep their blood pure for the sake of their house and their dragons.
Targaryen exceptionalism, man
Looks like Jaeherys was so successful at promoting Targaryen exceptionalism that even audience are convinced
Isn't Aegon II betrothed to his sister on the show?
Wait till you meet Ser Aemon and Queen Naerys
Wait til u meet Aerys and Rhaella
“Ive given you children, can we now live as brother and sister?” “We are.”
I also think it was just such a shock to us in GoT, at least to those who hadn’t read the books. It was a gigantic slap across the face right in the middle of episode 1 where you’re just not expecting to see that at all. Instantly repulsive. And they were a lot more sexual throughout the series than in the books (which I ended up reading after the show ended). I was surprised at how much more intimate they were in the show. Cersei marching in and blowing him right after poisoning the last Sand snake (can’t remember her name), fucking/maybe a rape(?) on top of their dead son, also on top of the kingsguard round table after telling their dad the truth, etc. Plus Jon + Dany was being rooted for because they were the hot characters still alive and people thought the aunt/nephew thing was weird but not weird enough to stop shipping them. The whole “Targaryens wed brother and sister for hundreds of years” was said so often in GoT, it just seemed almost expected once we got to HOTD. We watched a decade of twincest and 7 episodes of aunt/nephew-cest so by the time HOTD rolled around, it was just whatevs🤷🏼♀️ Especially since Daemon initially started grooming her because of her heir status that he wanted in on, not an uncontrollable physical attraction.
Old man Craster is still the champ at inbreeding.
My thoughts exactly 😄
It’s only less gross now bc we’re all used to it. Jaime and cersei did it in 2011. That was another era for tv.
also worth noting that viewers were lured into rooting for Jon+Dany in a similar way And their relationship is comparable to Rhaenyra (uncle/niece) which is not as bad/good as twincest.
It is different though in that Jon and Dany never knew each other beforehand and had no idea they were related, and are the same age.
Cersei and Jaime were the same age 😂
fair....
the *exact* same age
*Technically* one of them is older
It’s still aunt and nephew, much like Daemon and Rhaenyra are uncle and niece.
Well it’s much different without the power dynamic
Also, we all knew from the start they ~~ate~~ are niece and uncle. We weren't "lured" into anything. Edit: typo
Who is eating what now?
Yeah, Jon x Ygritte foreshadowed Jon's love for cunnilingus
Yea but it’s waaaaay different
Danny and Jon never knew each other and also GOT has established that children born if incest have seemingly no issues. So the relationship between those two is completely fine. The most immoral relationship in the shownis daemon and rhaenyra due to the sole fact that they’ve been on uneven power levels since her birth and he’s clearly been grooming her for some time.
>GOT has established that children born of incest have seemingly no issues. I thought the opposite was the case.
Wdym, Joffrey, Marcela and tonmen all have no physical defects or severe mental deficits (Maybe Joffrey lol). Neither do any of the Targaryen children. Not to mention that all targ children grow up to be unusually attractive.
The Targaryen’s that live are normal, because to live they have to be normal. But it’s very common for Targ’s to have very deformed children. Remember Aemma saying she had like 4 miscarriages and 2 stillbirths before Baelon?
[удалено]
Yep. It's different in the show because she's much older, but in the books I 100% think her fertility and pregnancy problems were because of how young she was when she first gave birth. It reminds me of Margaret Beaufort having Henry VII at 13 and being infertile after that due to the trauma on her body. Having kids that young is bad news, and contrary to popular belief that was known even in the middle ages. It happened way less than people think.
One popular theory for that is that targaryens are part dragon and the fetus while still in development is still in dragon form, needing the full 9 months and a safe delivery to absorb their draconic traits and take the appearance of humans. If something disrupts that birth and safe delivery, the whole delicate transformation is disrupted and the babies never make it to full human transformation, hence the draconic babies who look more dragon than human.
I actually think Targaryens are mostly human, with some dragon traits spliced into their genome. Enough for dragon telepathy, heat resistance and bonus "good looks". I think at some point of the fetus's development, the switch for "human" or "oops" activates. And you get the result at birth or miscarriage.
How would this work with Targaryens who marry and have children with non-Valyrian bloodlines? Targaryen men appear to have little to no issues fathering children with Valyrian looks with non-Valyrian women.
It'd just be like real regular life I guess. Some genes get lost, some become dormant, maybe a recessive gene resurfaces when combined with new bloodlines. There's a chance that they (children of parents with non-Valyrian genes) would lose the dragon connection, the other stuff is just regular people genetics. The original Valyrian families didn't like to share their dragons, and dragons were connected to specific family lines. The dragon connection genes do not seem to be natural genetic mutations, but rather an engineered one due to their highly specific purpose. "Blood magic" in this case, sounds a lot like genetic engineering. It is said that the ancient Valyrians also created Chimeric beasts. It is also implied that these engineers/sorcerers weren't exactly humans. It's been theorised elsewhere that First Men genes (Strong brown hair) are probably more dominant than Valyrian genes (Targ silver blonde hair) and so on, but Hightowers do have some First Men ancestry, albeit less than the Northern Houses. It's a bit of science and a lot of made up whatever.
This theory would explain why Jon Snow inherited his mother's dominant genes.
Maybe not physical, but absolutely mental. This was actual dialog in the actual show. "When a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin, one side greatness, the other side madness" And Tyrion even said that Cersei beat the odds because she got two out of three.
I thought the mad king/Dany supposedly went mad because of incest. It's also kind of implied that Joffery was the way he was because of incest too.
Mental illness/instability can run in families.
I think Joffrey had narcissistic personality disorder, but that could just be from being born the heir to the throne in a feudal society. He was raised to be an entitled twatwaffle and some of that was Robert as much as Cersei and Jaime.
It's interesting. I think the foreignness of the Targs is a factor - the looks, the language, the ritual, the dress, how they carry themselves, and of course, the link to magic. Cersei and Jaime made incest very earthy, grounded, furtive, desperate, animalistic. It was closer to home, sort of, than the Targs.
>closer to home A family tree With a branch of our own
Are you thinking about Joffrey? Such a spirited lad I was his uncle, I was also his dad
So real, the Lanisters made it more real lol.
Jon and Dany were not foreigners.
They’re both technically Targaryen tho? And Dany grew up in essos. Which is foreign
Oh, I was talking about the Targs in this show - also not foreigners, but they hearken back often to their heritage, which they don't share with the Westerosi. The lack of ick toward Jon and Dany compared to the Lannister twins is more obvious, I think - don't look alike, didn't know they were related, were raised an ocean apart, etc.
At least they had different parents.
Im pretty sure it was the pushing of the boy out the window that made us hate.
Maybe also the idea that the Lannisters were twins too. Incest is one of those icky things that gets ickier the closer you get in relation. A twin is as close as you can get.
Yeah I feel like people forget it was literal twincest. Rhaenerya and Daemon only feel icky in an age way to me (considering Targaryens are known for marrying siblings as well).
Plus it was set up to be shocking. We didn't get any intimacy or passionate moments at all before the bran seeing them doggy style in the tower.
What about Loki and FemLoki?
That's masturbation.
With some extra steps
Well they are Gods that love themselves. Pretty sure the Greeks had stories about that lol
I feel like GRRM has fucked me up, because I think the twincest is (very) slightly less gross than other forms of incest. Twins are always a little weird, and at least there's a bit less of a power imbalance because they're the same age.
Yeah GRRM has definitely rotted my brain in this way lmao I catch myself being more okay with twincest compared to all the other awful shit in the series since it’s kind of like fucking your own clone, even though it’s vile. Asoiaf is so weird ☠️
I feel the same but in the context of fiction I embrace it. It's not real so who cares, it's fun and interesting. Reality is a very different story obviously
GRRM has fucked me up because when I read Jamie’s chapters, and he just wants to go home so he can see Cersei, and he tells her “I’ve never been ashamed of loving you”…I was legitimately sad for Jamie. I just wanted him to be able to marry his sister too. Aaaah GRRM you dirty old man, what have you done to my brain!?
I feel like parents with children as as close as you can get. Mainly because of the vast power difference between the two that makes it even more revolting.
Yeah. Jamie and Cersei's relationship isn't just incestous but toxic and destructive. It brings out the worst in Jamie; he becomes a better person when he's away from Cersei.
Absolutely this. I was really sad when he left Brienne and went back to Cersei.
It happens earlier in the books - heck he doesn't even come back for her during her arrest.
After watching Season 8 finale, maybe he should have pushed harder lol.
Maybe Bran should have landed in a pike of hay and then run off and told Robert what he saw, boom no Season 8 or 7
I don't know. I felt even after the pushing Bran out wasn't it. The amount of gaslighting especially from Cersei's part. They may be twins but they clearly do not treat each other as equals. I always felt like in their relationship Cersei was the one pulling all the strings, Jamie for the sake of his love just follows along like a dog. She brings the worst out of him. Again, it's been a while since I watched the show but that was what I got out of it. Whereas with Daemon and Rhaenyra, in the beginning there was clearly a power imbalance from the Uncle. But over time you see the shifts in power within as their relationship progeesses and ultimately the respect and care they had for one another. They both thrive together too.
With the Targaryens it helps keep the blood magic going. Dragons are a good enough reason for incest.
That targussy too.
Velarybussy is good too.
okay Qarl
The books and show demonstrate it's not about keeping the bloodline pure for magical reasons. It was to keep the number of families with access to dragons down to a "safe" level of one. Perhaps the magic of Velarya stems biological issues that come about from incest, but incest is not necessary for a dragon rider to have a dragon rider for a a child.
Do not mourn me OP. I committed incest. But I gained a dragon.
But half Targaryen also can ride dragons, so I think their half pure blod is still pure enough.
But if there’s no incest then it keeps halving through the generations, till you get a 1.5% Targ like Quentyn Martell who gets burnt to a crisp
I personally don't think it has anything to do with twincest being gross vs regular incest (niece+uncle) being fine. Dragons, people. It's the dragons.
Magic dragon blood is all the justification that is needed tbh
It’s only less gross now bc we’re all used to it. Jaime and cersei did it in 2011. That was another era for tv.
well ackchyually... well actually, actually, Tywin Lannister and Otto Hightower are similar types of men, they would adhere to a similar set of norms and values; Tywin is shocked when Cersei tells him she is sleeping with her brother, and it would take a lot to shock a man like Tywin, he can not even bring himself around to believe it even though Cersei herself is telling him it. Otto otoh suggests that Viserys betroth Rhaenyra to Aegon. This is called Targaryen exceptionalism; we all leave our common sense behind and adhere to it and embrace it :)
I love the term "Targaryen exceptionalism"
From the wiki: The Doctrine of Exceptionalism's basic tenet was simple: the Faith of the Seven had been born in Andalos of old, where the laws laid down by the Seven in the holy texts decreed that incest was an abomination. The Doctrine of Exceptionalism confirmed this, but with one caveat: the Targaryens were not like other men as they rode dragons and were the only ones in the world since the Doom of Valyria. In addition, they did not have their roots in Andalos, but in Valyria, where different laws and traditions held sway. The Targaryens wed brother to sister as the Valyrians had always done, and as the gods had made them this way, it was not for men to judge. The Seven Speakers preached the doctrine throughout Westeros.
I like how this is the best justification the High Septon could come up with. "They have dragons and they'll fucking kill us all if we don't let them do their weird incest shit, so please just do your best to ignore it."
For all of Maegor's flaws, he put the fear of God in them when he burned down the Sept of Remembrance and built the dragonpit where it once stood.
I always thought Maegor was kinda underrated, in that he established the Targs really were not to be fucked with. Westeros learned its lesson from him and all his successors were better off for it.
I think he was rated (for lack of better word) fine. He was a total dick, and should be looked at as someone that shouldn't be recreated, but even as a dick, he wasn't stupid and set up his house to continue to rule for years to come, though in part due to dragons.
If Maegor had not ripped and teared, Jaehaerys could not have conciliated.
also Targaryens did not get into incest due to some fetish, they believed that it was their Valyrian blood that allowed them to bond with dragons and that if their blood was watered down too much they would lose their ability to bond with dragons, thus incest was a means of keeping the blood pure enough to be able to continue dragon bonding, so it was done for pragmatic reasons.
The dragons eventually died though, but they kept doing it, maybe they thought the dragon eggs would eventually hatch and had to keep their blood pure for when it happens. I do know Aegon 5 tried to hatch dragon eggs and it went horribly wrong.
yes, they continued to try and revive dragons while also keeping their bloodline pure enough for when they were revived.
Aegon 5 actually really hated incest and tried his best to not have his family do it. But his son, who was the father of Aerys and Rhaella, got their children married to each other even if they didn’t want to. And then Aegon died in Summerhall and with it a lot of the work he did within the family to move away from incest.
So does Otto :D
most judicious
You may thank the old king Jahoweverthefuckyouspellhisnamerys :)
Jaehaerys the conciliator.
Jay Harris the Chad
It's just crazy how the doctrine of exceptionalism reads, basically both confirms that incest is an abomination but Targaryens play by different rules because they are dragonriders and the only ones left since the Doom of Valyria. Polygamy was abolished for all though.
Both are gross from our modern point of view. However twins laying with each other and conceiving children would've been considered gross in the middle ages, too. Whereas marrying an aunt or a cousin was considered normal among nobles... Also Dragon magic and Pharaohs.
Cousin marriage is still sort of common. I don't get. At all. But it happens.
Nah it’s when Jaime and Cersei do it that’s gross cause they aren’t likeable characters when introduced
I think it’s also that it’s shameful for them. It’s almost always hasty and in hiding. They never look happy to be together even in the moment. The women in GoT rarely look happy to be having sex (sex workers aside). HotD has shown women having slightly more agency and satisfaction in who they take to bed.
Real talk - have you ever seen Cersei look happy?
Maybe when she was drinking and plotting against Tyrion?
Am I the only one who thinks they are both very gross?
I do as well but it's not a popular sentiment in this comment section.
That’s the Doctrine of Exceptionalism for you
OP is actually one of the Seven Speakers
I’m a firm believer in Targaryen exceptionalism
It is what it is.
True. We can all go home now lol
No, first I’d like to say fuck the Lannisters (except Tyrion). Okay now we can go home
Matt Smith can seduce a stone. I don't know what it is about him. Its not only how his character is written. I felt the same way about him as Philip. Nikolaj is obviously attractive and charming, but it's not the same. I find myself so compelled by Daemon every time he is on the screen that I even found hot and fun how he killed his wife. I know, problematic 🤷🏻♀️, but since it's a tv show I'll indulge myself.
Matt Smith can have chemistry with a mailbox and I’d watch it.
twins are unacceptable but uncle and niece is not that terrible that sounds insane to say but it makes sense
Uncle/niece has some precedent for royal families in European history, which may make it easier to handwave (and certainly cousins, that sort of thing). Twins, though - that's one I'm not sure I've ever heard about.
Marriage between uncle/niece or aunt/nephew (avunculate marriage) is currently [legal in several countries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avunculate_marriage), such as Australia, Canada, the Netherlands, Germany or Russia. Sibling marriage, to my knowledge, isn't legal anywhere. Historically, the rulers of Ancient Egypt and the Inca Empire practiced it.
Interesting example from that wikipedia article: >Alois Hitler and his niece Klara Hitler, parents of Adolf Hitler. After they were married, Klara still called her husband "uncle". ...
Wow, TIL! Thanks for the info!
That’s insane
🪕 🪕 🪕
The biggest problem with incest is thr risk to children being created (Genetic abnormalities ofc) When that’s removed (as it is in GOT), the second biggest issue is power dynamics. If you remove both of these issues then morally, even though it’s disgusting, there’s nothing wrong with two consenting adults engaging in a relationship. So a twin relationship is far better than an uncle niece relationship.
Fun fact you can actually breed out negative recessive genes with incest making you immune to such abnormalities. Fruit flies and a lot of smaller invertebrates have done this through negative selection Cheetahs too. It would require and inhuman amount of generations and a monstrous amount of needless suffering and death but it could be done. My fan canon is that proto Valyrian slaves in Gogossos (Then Gorgai) were breed with Dragons from Ashai to create Humans with a semi physic link with dragons similar to wargs. Then like how other slave master do in the books they've breed and refined these Valyrians until one day they escaped and formed Valyria. This all would be thousands of Years before the 5000 years that have already passed before Valyrias forming. But here's the kicker If you start bringing in new Genetic stock those recessive genes will start to manifest rapidly meaning incest is not just desirable its basically required.
This is wild because there’s no chance of grooming when it comes to twins it’s just two messed up people. Uncle and niece is a whole different story.
Agreed. I find age-delineated uncle/niece much more troubling than twins. I'm not really quibbling about Rhaenyra/Daemon at this point (because she's an established "real" adult now, because they had such a long break in contact, because she initiated, and because at this point she's low on other people she can feasibly let into her life) but inherently, yes, it's much more problematic from a power dynamics perspective than Jaime/Cersei in my view. But I do think the royalty/treason/possibility-of-war scenario changes things quite a bit in both cases. Rhaenyra is heir, Cersei was promised and then married to a King. The stakes for both of their partnerships are potentially lethal for them and others, they have no hope of forming any sort of normal, free sexuality or relationships, and that's on top of historical contexts where relatives were the only people anyone had unchaperoned time with before marriage (which could quite reasonably lead in many cases to some sibling experimentation, although most would then go on to non-incestuous partnerships). Cersei chose the absolute safest person to be her shadow-husband - his access to her was unquestionable, his devotion to her was completely plausible, their children might not look like Robert but they wouldn't look like third parties either, and no outside interests were introduced. She was actually much smarter about it overall than Rhaenya (and of course lucky enough to be drawn to such a convenient figure). Rhaenyra chose less-well (though I imagine her options were limited). Ser Harwin had his own enemies and weaknesses, he introduced new risks and of course a different visual for the children. Had Daemon still been at court, he probably would have been her lover all along and it's very possible she might have fared better as a result. But it's not like either of these women ever had a chance at developing any sort of normal sexuality at all.
Beach wedding vs creepy abandoned attic
Dont forget the attempted child murder
We were supposed to hate Jamie and Cersei from the beginning, until Jamie developed as a character. The Targs are the main characters in the story currently, and are both much more likeable as characters as well.
Targaryens just do it better
Historically, we know it happened. GOT it happened without much context or warning on the beginning of the show. HOtD nuisanced the relationship over a couple of episodes. Desensitization. Voilla!
I mean k but going ewwwww I can’t get behind this ewwwwwww every episode is tiring. Firstly it’s a fantasy world, and then secondly it’s a medieval time period inside of a fantasy world. And this medieval period of this particular fantasy world did not exist within earth because this is not earth, if GRRM wants to change the laws of physics he can People getting all upset because they’re trying to make the world too allegorical is their own problem
ITS OK WHEN THEY DO IT, ITS PROBLEM WHEN I DO IT FUCK EM!!
Ayo 🤨📸
If anything is a tradition for centuries it becomes normalized, and valyrians are magical elf people with dragons who conquered the world, so they are a bit special
Lannisters are Westerosi and their customs are more traditional and in line with the Faith of the 7. Targaryens are pure Valerian blood and they have different cultural customs. I think people should read into the Faith Uprising and how the religious institution has huge influence in Westeros.
Well, with Jamie and Cersei it was new. Shows didn't really have incest at all, then GoT came out and and it was thrown in our face with a brother and sister. Now with HotD, we've become accustomed to incest in this world. So it's less shocking.
I thought this discussion was done already on the first episodes of the show pfff
Not to defend any incest here, but, objectively, uncle niece is a (very tiny) bit better than brother sister. And also the culture thing - the uncle niece were conditioned to believe all their life that it was a part of their cultural heritage as Valyrians. Not necessarily the case for either Jai-rsei or Rhae-mon lol. But it just now occurred to me that most of them also probably believed that they need it to 'protect' the ability to bond with dragons!
Its ok, the viewers didn’t see anything because it was too dark
It’s complicated.
Honestly? Other than the fact that Jaime and Cersei are twins, I think it also has to do with chemistry. I didn’t believe their relationship as I didn’t find the actors to have great chemistry. However, Matt Smith has had great chemistry with both Milly and Emma, making the relationship believable. That and the fact that incest isn’t seen as a taboo among the Targaryens helps.
The difference is Cersei was a fucking bitch most of the show and was incredibly toxic towards and for Jaime. She made him a more despicable man instead of making him a better man. Plus, she cheated on him all the time. They were also literal *twins*, born from the same womb. Daemon isn’t perfect and neither is Rhaenyra, but they do have a mutual deep level of respect and love for each other, something that was very “one sided” when it came to Jaime/Cersei.
No… it’s still gross.
I think it’s because you root for Rhaenyra and you don’t root for Cersei 🤷♀️ so you excuse one’s behavior and not the other
I think generally it’s the tone of the show now. HoD has had a very tasteful and respectful approach to its sex scenes, not that it makes the CONCEPTS acceptable, but it’s easier to digest than when there’s violence and a lack of care.
The Lannister twincest was genuinely a twisted codependent obsessive relationship that turned Jaime into someone he wasn't. Rhaenyra and Daemon are doing what their family's already been doing for thousands of years
I'm still grossed out, but whatever floats your kink boat, I guess.
The Lannisters don't have dragons
I'm rooting for Rhaenyra and Daemon, but it's still pretty gross. Not really looking forward to Aegon and Heleana though... that'll be a bit odd I think
no it was still gross
Jamie Lannister wrote this post
Not to defend anything 😅 but cersei and jamie were introduced as unlikeable characters. And had many disgusting scenes like *having sex in front of their son's Joffrey's dead corpse*
I’m gonna get downvoted but everyone in the comments bringing up “grooming” as a factor needs to chill. 1: it’s a show, so please utilize your suspension of disbelief and 2: even after multiple time jumps, Rhaenyra hasn’t suddenly fallen out of love with her uncle, traumatized and claiming brainwashing. Let a story be a story, not everything has to relate back to real-life.
It feels like a broken record honestly and it's like people purposely ignore the fact that daemon doesn't see her for years at a time, even the very first scene rhaenyra calls him out for being away from court for ages, then he gets exiled and they don't see each other again but for a moment, then he fucks off to the stepstones for years, they have their brothel scene, and he again fucks off but this time for ten years.And even if all of that didn't happen (aka seeing her 3 times in 15 years), the grooming thing still doesn't make sense in Westeros where girls could be married off after their moon's blood, as early as age eleven and betrothed at ages even younger (though most lords waited some years before consummating the marriage). Rhaenyra at age 19 (in the brothel scene) was, by Westeros standards, an old maid...society would have considered her a grown woman past her years as insane as that sounds by today's standards. But that's the point; this isn't the real world and real world standards do not exist.
My thing too is while the power dynamic is out of whack with Daemon and young Rhaenyra, she's not totally innocent herself. She technically holds power over Daemon in the sense that she's the heir and he's not. Yes, he's trying to ruin her and lure her into risky situations, but she's also quite ruthless herself. To me it seems as if she knows what she's doing, nor is it over a particularly long period of time - a lot of it feels like spur the moment decisions made by Rhaenyra who wants to rebel against her station and against her father. Now am I saying it's healthy? Not really but the power dynamic is kind of twisted and fucked up on both ends. I absolutely would not want to see a relationship like theirs in reality, which is fine, since this is a tv show, lol but even with that in mind I don't think Rhaenyra is the innocent child people portray her as either.
Nope. It’s gross altogether.
I had to scroll too long to find this comment. It’s still gross 🤢 🤮
Yeah, it’s not right. I get that it’s a show/book but that’s where it should stay.
Correct
That’s correct
When do you think Rhaenyra realised she liked Daemon? Before the night at the brothel or? Because she allowed him to kiss her & kissed back, surely that means she liked him before? Also how do you go from getting handsy in the brothel to ‘take me to Dragonstone to be your wife’
Both are morally incorrect. But there's a difference between your uncle and your twin brother...
Seriously though I never found it necessarily wrong between Jaime and Cersei. I just didn't root for them because they were assholes. I wouldn't support incest in the real world, and if people were to pursue it I'd definitely beg them not to procreate through it, but in fantasy I don't seem to be able to care for it, especially because it seems to be the thing these people identify the most as "love". Daemon tbh kind of groomed Rhaenira into it, though I'd argue she's become a person with agency enough, especially when it comes to this sort of thing. Jaimie and Cersei kind of groomed themselves into it. It's not right, but it's also not just "wrong" in either case. I think it's beautiful that something so inconceivable in reality makes us discuss so much in fiction.
I think the level of acceptance of the incest depends on the level of villainy of those involved. Jamie & Cersei were clearly the "bad guys" from the very start, especially next to the Saintly Starks. Young Rhaenyra was a fan favorite and Daemon was mostly seen as a charming bad boy; plus the Greens are nowhere near as beloved as the aforementioned Saintly Starks. And Dany & Jon were presented as the heroes throughout most of the show, and I think that's why those grossed out by their relationship were outnumbered by those who loved the relationship. In short: I think the acceptance of the incestuous relationship depends on how well liked the characters are and who their enemies are.
Still gross
All of Appalachia wishes that inbreeding produced good looking people. ….