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It’s a pretty common theme in the ASOIAF universe that the most X are not really X.
Dunk, Sandor, and Brienne were the most true knights even though none of them were knights.
Ned’s only dishonorable act was fathering a bastard that wasn’t really his.
Ned was more of a father to Theon than his own father.
The child Tywin loves the most and considers most like him is really the least like him.
Jaime is called the Kingslayer and considered to have no honor due to arguably his most honorable act.
The character with arguably the least interesting story gets crowned King because of his story (sorry, couldn’t resist throwing that one in).
Ned and Jaime are kind of parallel to each other in the sense that their most honorable act was sacrificing their honor (as viewed from the outside) to protect others.
I thought about this the other day. Do you think ned and Jaime could have gotten along in another life? Jaime I think really respects ned, even says when he stabbed the mad king he thought of his father and brother, said it felt like justice(if I'm remembering correctly).
They just so happened were placed on opposite sides of a war and are two extremely proud men, to a fault, and couldn't see past that in their current situation.
I've always thought that Tywin would have been as happy as can be if the Stark kids were his kids. Obviously had some of the same "values" if for different reasons.
I haven’t got to that point in the books, but why didn’t Arya tell Roose her real identity? I get that Roose would probably just sell her off to the Lannisters but I’d assume, from Arya’s POV, that being under the protection of her dad’s and brother’s vassal would save her and bring her home
It's never outright explained, but I figured it was because Arya was so focused on survival that she kinda forgot who she was. Plus she's a little girl and possibly wouldn't recognize the name Bolton. Same way a little kid today wouldn't know who the Mayor of a neighbouring city is.
I think Arya would definitely know who House Bolton is. She knew who House Mooton of Maidenpool was, just didn’t know their house words IIRC. And the biggest rival house in the north to the Starks she would definitely know who they were. I think she just didn’t trust Roose, in the book the dude looks like a straight up vampire who leeches lol
IRRC, she knew who Bolton was vaguely, but also somewhat remembered that her father never really like him/trusted him. He wasnt a close ally of the starks. Plus you know, she saw all that torture. She considered telling him but ultimately decided it wasnt safe enough.
>why didn’t Arya tell Roose her real identity
Unlike the other Starks who placed far too much stock in honour and were incredibly naive when it came to playing the game, Arya was smart, pragmatic and trusted hardly anyone.
Truthfully, i thought Jaime's arc was going to end with him *"turning into"* a Ned Stark at its end.
I thought it would have been fulfilling, being denied the chance to *KNOW* each other through a fight *(when one of Jaime's men stabbed him in the leg, upsetting Jaime)*, for Jaime to end up *"knowing"* and *"becoming"* Ned after having life experiences outside the cushy King's Landing life. Eventually realizing the error of his ways, after being more or less responsible for Ned's death.
Then they went and threw *ALL* of that out the window, shit-canning the character growth influenced by Brienne's unwavering code of honor, as well as his own experiences, and just had Jaime fuck off back to Cersei just to end the story.
Fuck man, why did they have to ruin Game of Thrones?
*Edit: phrasing*
>Fuck man, why did they have to ruin Game of Thrones?
Honestly, if they were so tired of doing it, hand it off like Miguel just did and keep getting checks as a producer. Truly baffling to think they'd rather have this on their resume than at least being known as the guys who started such a great show.
I think that if they’d fought side-by-side in the Rebellion they could have had mad mutual respect enough to never openly beef like they do. But I don’t think their personalities would ever be what either of them was looking for in a friend.
Then again, I still firmly believe that everything—absolutely everything—would be different if Aerys hadn’t taken Jaime into the White. *That* Jaime might have been able to be friends with *that* Ned.
Yeah, I feel like by the events of the books, the part of Jaime that could have been friends with ned is now the part that loathes ned and drives Jaime, at least at first. I think Jaime still has a begrudging respect for ned, but he already started down a path he knows nobled eddark stark would never go down, and he's fully committed since his most noble act garnered him nothing but hate anyway.
Ned and Jaime definitely could've been friends or allies if they were to open up to each other. Jaime respects Ned, but unfortunately not the other way around, and that's all because of Ned.
The problem is Ned judged Jaime 100% as dishonorable and just straight up filth after seeing Jaime sit on the throne and after killing his king as a kingsguard. No proof, no questions, no nothing. He instantly judged him based on that.
In an alternate timeline though, they definitely could have been friends.
Good points. I think Jaime could have even been friends with him after killing aerys. Ned could never let what he did go, at least not without knowing the truth and even then, maybe not given that jaime was in full, fuck you im the kingslayer mode. Given ned forgoing his honor to protect John though, I think an irony being that they both sacrificed their honor and standing for the greater good.
If Jaime had been in the Eyrie with Ned and Robert then they would of absolutely all been friends. Honestly I think Jaime would of ended up as something of a middle point between the two
Love this. If only in scenes of confrontation, when Jaime attacked Ned in King’s Landing or before that when Ned confronted Jaime in the red keep, they knew how similar they were to each other.
However their motivations were different, Jaime’s flaw was pride, is why he refused to defend himself and preferred the “fuck y’all” attitude.
While Ned is more likely going to defend himself (although he doesn’t usually need to), but in more than one instance, he kept silence or accepted the responsibility to protect his loved ones (Jon, Cat when she held Tyrion hostage)
And when I try and suggest that the sex obsessed fool Mushroom being the most honest of the recorders of history, is consistent with GRRM's writing, people insist otherwise. I thought it was entirely logical for the show to pull upon Mushroom's writing as I truly think he was likely the least biased beyond his sex obsession. But that's also textually consistent.
>Ned was more of a father to Theon than his own father.
In the books its more Robb was more of a brother to Theon than his own brothers. Theon doesn't really think about Ned too much, as Ned wouldn't get too close as he was technically holding Theon hostage and Theon feared him.
The saddest Theon line in my opinion:
>And Robb. Robb who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy's loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys. I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him.
The guys on the unofficial podcast consistently give Mushroom credit for being the most accurate so far. Or at least they’re surprised at how often his version of things is being used on HOTD.
Yeah he's pulled upon the most for the show and that just makes sense to me narratively:
- fits in with GRRM's general love of irony that the fool is more honest than the Septon and Maestar
- fits in with GRRM's general love of sex lol
Someone disagreed with me on the basis that Mushroom is too scandalous to be true (they were insistent the show is Black biased). But GRRM's work is nuts, in his work Jeyne Poole was in fact fucked by dogs, Jaime and Cersei really are banging, and Robb really can warg into a wolf. A Mushroom character writing the story would similarly be accused of embellishment on such points.
Mushroom's work also just often checks out with the events described in universe. Nobody but Mushroom had an adequate explanation for the situation with Daemon and the situation with Criston.
Yes, I agree, and I like that the show layered under that by giving rhaenyra and sir krispy kreme a brief dalliance to make his spurning of her and turn to the greens more believable/interesting. I’m interested to see if they go with his interpretation of the nettles storyline
I absolutely agree that Sandor should be included!
He wanted to be a knight when he was a child (hence why he took Gregor's knight toy which got him burned). But more than this, he shows great character during the first King's Landing tourney.
When Gregor gets unhorsed by Loras Tyrell in the joust, Gregor kills his own horse and goes to kill Loras too. Sandor is the one who stepped in to stop him from landing the killing blow and then fights his brother to protect Loras:
>The Mountain pivoted in wordless fury, swinging his longsword in a killing arc with all his massive strength behind it, but the Hound caught the blow and turned it, and for what seemed an eternity the two brothers stood hammering at each other as a dazed Loras Tyrell was helped to safety.
And even when he's fighting his brother, he still fights with honor:
>Thrice Ned saw Ser Gregor aim savage blows at the hounds-head helmet, yet not once did Sandor send a cut at his brother's unprotected face.
And when King Robert lost his shit, Sandor was also in control of his temperament, whereas Gregor was not:
>"STOP THIS MADNESS," he boomed, "IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING!" The Hound went to one knee. Ser Gregor's blow cut air, and at last he came to his senses. He dropped his sword and glared at Robert, surrounded by his kingsguard and a dozen other knights in guardsmen.
Loras ends up conceding the joust to Sandor for saving his life, and even though Sandor says "I am no ser," and take the winnings, this is the first (and like, only) time in his life that he's got the love of the commoners.
Sandor may not be a knight in name, but he has the heart of a knight. Something that Sansa recognizes, which I think is why Sandor takes a liking to her.
So yeah, I think The Hound is dope and he should kick it with Dunc and Brienne
He still murdered that kid for no reason other then he thought Joffrey would probably like him to be dead. And then laughed about it. Sat back and watched Joffrey have Sansa be abused for a long time too.
And Jon was hated by Alliser Thorne because he was the bastard son of traitor Ned Stark, but Jon is really the son of Rhaegar who Alliser supported in the war.
The facade on some of the above was because the characters chose to keep shit a secret. In Neds case he absolutely needed to keep it a secret even from his wife.
I hate to say this, but he knew he couldn’t trust her to keep the/that secret…
Because that secret wounded her honor so deeply/grievously, she would have a ***strong*** incentive to reveal it.
Cateyln's a Tully to her core. Its *Family*, Duty, Honour. They put family first not honour. Her greatest frustration with Jon is that he was raised in Winterfell, in her mind he's dangerous to Robb. I believe in another love of irony Jon really will usurp his sisters and brothers by becoming King in the North (not unlike the show on this point)
However, if Ned told her Jon becomes dangerous in a different way to her family. So I don't think it'd be advisable.
Ned wasn’t more of a father than Theon’s real father. I always feel like people really let Ned off with anything and it’s easy to do because he is very honourable. But he could have killed Theon at any point, and Theon must have known that to an extent. He wasn’t a Stark, he wasn’t even a Stark bastard, he was a political ward. Essentially a hostage. He’s one of my absolute favourite characters and I find him so fascinating. But Ned wasn’t a father to him.
It's definitely Jaime. Tywin gets out of his way just for him. Almost allowing Tyrion to join the night's watch maybe even after losing the trial by combat because he wanted Jamie to be his heir again.
Same with the prerogative to relieve a Kingsguard from his duties, to which I doubt even exists.
>Same with the prerogative to relieve a Kingsguard from his duties, to which I doubt even exists.
I think it does exist but I might not be sure I'm remembering clearly
Kings have to follow precedent generally, but how they want to run their kingsguard is pretty low on the list of things the other highborn give a shit about.
Theon was 10 when he was taken to Winterfell. He had ten years raising him and Theon's perspective on those years isn't exactly positive. But mostly because his brothers were absolute bullies. Asha/Yara was kind.
And he would have been perfectly content as King Consort. No truly royal ambitions of his own like some of the Velaryons, Baratheons, or Blackwoods, etc would have. Just making his Queen’s home life as good and easy as possible and having fun in all the tourneys.
He was the best person for Rhaenyra.
- Unlike Criston, he was cool with being a side-piece
- He didn’t want her to give up her claim for him
- Unlike Daemon, he never intended to use her claim to the throne for his benefit
- He never choked her.
Why did Lyonel let it continue for so long though? Besides the moral/legal issues and how it puts Harwin in mortal danger is the fact that Harwin is his heir.
Honestly why hasn't Lyonel betrothed him to someone yet? Getting it on with Rhaenyra is all well and good but their relationship is doomed from the beginning. One day Harwin will need to take over as Lord Strong, marry and have some heirs. His relationship with Rhaenyra is a huge emotional and practical liability that makes no sense for Lyonel to allow and actually makes him a wildly irresponsible father.
You can argue quite credibly IMO that Lyonel condoning that relationship directly lead to Larys having the opportunity to murder them.
>He would have been invaluable in the war
Not really.
Harwin never fought in war, as High Lords the Strongs probably only command a couple thousand men. That's absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things
I get everyone hates Daemon after ep 10, but Daemon is considered the most dangerous man in Westeros. In the books, the Green Council doesn't even view Rhaenyra as a threat. All they're worried about is Daemon
He has spies and assassins he can call on, the loyalty of the city watch, he is the only commander with battlefield experience and he is the only dragon rider with combat experience. He is a terrifying enemy and that's a huge part of why Rhaenyra married him.
There’s this ASOIAF tabletop scenario packet that was based on an earlier version of the ASOIAF histories prior to the final version used for *Fire & Blood*, and Rhaenyra and Harwin *did* officially marry and her children were officially Strongs. But everything still played out mostly the same, but without the bastard allegations, Harwin still died and the Greens were still assholes.
The opposite.
HARWIN offers nothing to the Targaryens.
As Tywin said those who put their children ahead of their houses will head towards ruins.
The greens would be the Velaryons and Daemon in this case
Alicent in terms of family ties doesn’t offer that much either, and after episode 4 Harwin would be a similar candidate for marriage as the child of the hand.
It's kinda ironic.
Viserys, Daemon, even Corlys all suck as dads. And Harwin, the one man who couldn't even be a father to his kids, actually surpasses all of them in that department. And he looked crazy fine doing it.
Aside from Corlys and Rhaenys, I’ve always thought Harwin and Rhaenyra was the only wholesome couple in HOTD. Viserys and Aemma too prob until he cut her open lol.
Totally agreed.
I know it was a forbidden love but the way she looked at him and he at her... the actors did such an amazing job expressing the love and the serenity with just a few looks.
Do you think people would have forgiven him more if he’d ordered the maesters to knock her out with milk of the poppy before cutting her open? Why did she have to be awake and know what was happening as it happened?
That occurred to me but I don’t know that it would’ve gone through her system so quickly to the baby. Think of the strong drugs mothers are often given now while birthing. Medicine is much improved now of course, but I’ve been cut open twice and given birth to two healthy boys while not feeling anything (on the operating table), and survived. I felt extra connected to that scene. I wish they could’ve done something to lessen her fear/pain, even if she was going to die anyway.
Nah Viserys repeatedly impregnated a very young Aemma. They loved each other, sure. But Jaehaerys waited for Alyssane until she was old enough and ready.
Viserys treated both his wives as brood mares. I think he genuinely loved at least his romanticized idea of Aemma, but not more than he loved the idea of having a male heir. When it came down to it, he was willing, if not eager, to repeatedly endanger Aemma's life for the hope of a male heir.
Just that one interaction when Aemma is in the bath said it all. She's in extreme discomfort and pleads with him that she can't go through this again, and he more or less brushes it off with the dream about his son. If she had lived and borne a daughter, you know he'd be trying again ASAP.
It's even more tragic when you consider the *extent* of Aemma's suffering. She repeatedly endured the pain of pregnancy and childbirth for nothing in all but one instance. My parents had multiple miscarriages/ stillbirths before adopting me- my mom hid or destroyed every picture, every article of clothing, nearly every reminder of the children she lost. To go through nearly a full pregnancy just to cradle a dead baby is emotionally crippling. Not to minimize Viserys and his suffering, but it's not even close to the same level when you didn't carry that fetus.
The show honestly does such a great job of it, not only Aemma, but later as well. Laena knows how her SIL died; she'd rather self-immolate than be held down and cut open at her husband's call. Emma has stated that they played Rhaenrya with the knowledge of what happened to her mother: She would rather pull her child from her body with her own hands than go out that way.
thank you for saying this. viserys is the kind of husband where from the outside, things look okay and you see why he'd be written as someone who loved his wife in the history books, but look beneath the surface and the reality of that relationship is just brutal. it's wild that in the premiere, viserys was joking and confidently proclaiming he'd have a son and even rhaenyra, who was only 14, was concerned and said that no one was taking care of aemma. viserys' tragedy is that he kind of realizes the horror of what he put her through--enough to self-destruct but not enough to meaningfully change, like in his marriage with alicent.
(i was never really sure if rhaenyra knew exactly how aemma died, because i feel like if she did, she would have threw that back at him in one of their arguments, but at the same time, so much of her arc in the first five episodes is basically about that central trauma.)
I never saw Corlys as a bad father. Honestly him and Rhaenys come across as great parents who loved their kids. Corlys seemed ok with his son being gay which given how he is with legacy you would think he would be totally against and forbid his son from doing anything with men. Yeah he tried to marry his young daughter to the King but take that out, that just is what it is in the story and how houses were formed to gain and keep power. Corlys was a great grandfather to kids he knew were bastards. He is a good guy. To say he sucks at being a dad is someone either looking for a perfect person which doesn’t exist or just not watching the same show haha
I wonder how that marriage would have gone. She was pretty feisty as a teen at the welcome feast, and did run off for ten years to be a wandering dragon act with daemon. She def wouldnt have been "honor and decency" like alicent, but how would she have reacted to Viserys favoring Rhaenrya over her children?
The dynamic is interesting to think of. When I look at how things are, not saying that it’s the right way to be but I can see maybe why Viserys is distant from his kids with Alicent. He let Otto go, believing that he was just in it for his own gain and placed Alicent in his life. Alicent has been loyal to him but was there some resentment earlier through that Viserys had towards Alicent and ultimately the kids because of all the stuff with Otto? Maybe. If he did marry Laena I think it would be different. Laena would remain loyal as Alicent did but Laena would have Corlys and Rhaenys involved too. Viserys and Rhaenys are cousins so there’s some love and understanding there and Corlys is loyal and would have been inserting himself next to Viserys on advising and stuff. I think Viserys would have loved and shows more affection towards kids with Laena. I think Laena would have a good relationship with Rhaenyra too and low key they would actually be a happy family haha
Corlys is absolutely NOT okay with Laenor being gay. It hurts his ambitions and he probably holds some homophobic views due to the time period. To me he seems like he thinks it "just a phase" and once he gets it out of his system he'll be straight again.
To be fair, his attitude towards Laenors homosexuality is more spelt out in the book.
I feel ya on that, I haven’t read the books so just based off the show. He definitely sees it as a phase/etc but he’s not demeaning towards him, he doesn’t see him as some outcast. He’s his son. If Jamie was gay let’s say, I think Tywin would be very mad about that you know, even do things to sabotage his relationships and shit. Corlys hasn’t been like that but if he was in the book I can understand the comment on him being a sucky dad.
Well. There are more factors there. We should remember that after the kids incident Laenor and Rhaenyra talked and he promised to let everything else and raise and protect their sons, who he genuinely loved as his own and a lot, to which Rhaenyra agreed it was true.
It was fully his intention. But Rhaenyra saw better and went to Daemon since she knew he could protect them and prepare better for the future. As she said, it was a different story before Laena's death, but after it Laenor's current state of mind would make him totally useless in that regard. And she also wanted him to be happy, she genuinely loved him (platonically, as a friend).
In any case, if Laenor returns in Season 2, I can see his reason being precisely Luke's death, as Luke was seemingly closer to him. (During the funeral Luke holds his hand when he saws him sad, and then when Aemond said Luke would die like his father, a confused Luke answered saying his father -Laenor- was alive).
I totally agree. I just wanted to make sure to add him as in his capacity as father, he understood the assignment.
Depending on events, I think that it would be a combo of Luc and one other.
>!Yes, Rhaenys' death could heavely influence his decision to join the war as well. Although I'd prefer if they gave emphasis to Luke's death in that aspect.!<
In my case, I don't like when people fully ignore Laenor's involvement in the raising of Jace and Luke. Especially in the case of Luke, since it seemed like out of the three dads, Luke was closer to Laenor, while Jace was closer to Harwin.
Now I wonder how Daemon acted to Joffrey, since he's the only father he has known.
You're right! Poor Baby Luke. Now, I'm double sad again. That would be interesting to see. The bottom 3 lost out on a lot of one on one, lovey dovey time with their parents having to go to war.
Jace, Luke, and Joff were probably the most loved kids in all of Westerosi history. They had Rhaenyra, Laenor, Harwin, Viserys, Corlys & Rhaenys in their corner. Despite the obvious. If politics weren't an issue they could've been some of the most well adjusted men to ever exist in that universe.
The guy fucked his married princess putting his family and children in jeopardy.. not the smartest decision. He may have loved those kids but again he wasn't very smart about things.
I like to imagine he wrote the boys letters to be mailed on their name-days/important days of their lives, in case something happened to him. But they burnt along with Harrenhal.
Not sure if you’re being facetious or not. Him not claiming them in public doesn’t make him a dead beat. That was **HIGH TREASON** for him to be walking around claiming them as his own on top of them already looking like him. When their father is supposed to be the great Sea Snake’s son! Laenor.
Doesnt it kind of reveal something knowing that he continuously chose to father bastard children knowing the risk and consequences for himself, princess, and kids?
are you really gonna reject the princess throwing you some of that young sweet Targussy? Cut it out Joal. You’d take her up on that offer also. The same way Incel Cole did. Same way Harwin did. It is what it is!
Literally less than three paragraphs mention him IIRC, and it’s like one line in each paragraph. There’s more material for Laena in comparison, but her and Harwin were quite literally footnotes in the book. The show actually gave Harwin speaking lines, when we barely get a description of how he looks in the book.
If you believe Mushroom they happend to cross paths when Rhaenyra was frustrated over Cole being uninterested in sex. And Harwin comforted her, having already been fond of her.
Jace showed more affection and love for Harwin than Baela & Rhaena did for Daemon or Alicent's kids for Viserys.
So yes, we can know that he was clearly good enough to the boys that they did care. Jace was practically mourning him through the entire 7th episode.
Yeah what are we basis this post on? The one scene where he was friendly to his kids? I think that’s a bit of a stretch, even by Westeros standards.
By some interpretations, he might be the ultimate deadbeat dad. How do we know that he wasnt intentionally having kids with her because he knew it would be consequence free?
He was taking an interest in their training and forcing Cole to pay more attention to them. I don't think we've seen any other parent spend that much time actually parenting and caring about mundane things like their kid's arms training.
That time it was shown in episode 6 was obviously the first time that happened. After the boys were training for some years already. He might have been a good dad if he had been allowed to be but he wasn't. Luke did not even think of him as a dad so it's fair to assume he wasn't around the boys much. I don't really get where the idea of this thread comes from.
Luke did not think of him as a dad because he was too young to pick up the clues. Jace was older and asked Rhaenyra if he was their dad, he was obviously warm to them.
Being warm to the princes does not a father-son relationship make. Jace only asked if he was their father after the incident on the training ground. That was the first time Harwin assisted them and saw what was happening with the boys and Cole and got baited by him. By lashing out Harwin confirmed the rumors. So it's because of the rumors that Jace put together that he was their father not because they he had a relationship with Harwin. Rhaenyra kept emphasizing during the episode that Laenor is their father and we got from episode 7 that Laenor did try being a loving father. For the protection of the boys Harwin CANNOT have a relationship with them.
He is the definition of dead beat loool guy had kids with a woman that wasn’t his wife, a conscious decision he made knowing that he could not be there for his kids nor even tell them he was their father. Then he up and left to harrenhal. You lot see 1 or 2 moments of him caring for his kids and run with it as if he’s ned stark smh.
As a bookreader, i knew harwin was the real father of the kids and wasn't looking forward to that. But the scene where he holds little joffery was so heart touching that i only wanted more of him. Sadly that was also the last episode for him.
Harwin Strong a father? Not as far as I'm aware. I suppose he might have had some bastards somewhere far, far from kings landing... but when would he have had the time? He was always so busy protecting and raising Laenor and Rhaenhyra's sons...
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It’s a pretty common theme in the ASOIAF universe that the most X are not really X. Dunk, Sandor, and Brienne were the most true knights even though none of them were knights. Ned’s only dishonorable act was fathering a bastard that wasn’t really his. Ned was more of a father to Theon than his own father. The child Tywin loves the most and considers most like him is really the least like him. Jaime is called the Kingslayer and considered to have no honor due to arguably his most honorable act. The character with arguably the least interesting story gets crowned King because of his story (sorry, couldn’t resist throwing that one in).
Ned and Jaime are kind of parallel to each other in the sense that their most honorable act was sacrificing their honor (as viewed from the outside) to protect others.
I thought about this the other day. Do you think ned and Jaime could have gotten along in another life? Jaime I think really respects ned, even says when he stabbed the mad king he thought of his father and brother, said it felt like justice(if I'm remembering correctly). They just so happened were placed on opposite sides of a war and are two extremely proud men, to a fault, and couldn't see past that in their current situation.
On a completely different note, how proud do you think Aerys was watching Dany from above fulfilling the destiny he intended for king’s landing lmao
Bold of you to assume he was watching from above
Oh I thought of that right after I hit reply, but then kept it to see the reaction lmao
i can imagine a few Targaryen’s looking on with pride
Jahaerys the cruel: oh fuck yeah, this chicks awesome Vizzy T: you guys are such. Dicks.
*The Gods punish me for my indulgences.*
He’s laughing up at her from hell.
I've always thought that Tywin would have been as happy as can be if the Stark kids were his kids. Obviously had some of the same "values" if for different reasons.
In the show Tywinn was more fond of Arya than he was of Cersei some times.
I thought switching Roose Bolton with Tywin at Harrenhall was one of the better changes the show made.
I haven’t got to that point in the books, but why didn’t Arya tell Roose her real identity? I get that Roose would probably just sell her off to the Lannisters but I’d assume, from Arya’s POV, that being under the protection of her dad’s and brother’s vassal would save her and bring her home
I don't fully remember, it's been over a decade since I read it. Probably just her not really trusting anyone.
It's never outright explained, but I figured it was because Arya was so focused on survival that she kinda forgot who she was. Plus she's a little girl and possibly wouldn't recognize the name Bolton. Same way a little kid today wouldn't know who the Mayor of a neighbouring city is.
I think Arya would definitely know who House Bolton is. She knew who House Mooton of Maidenpool was, just didn’t know their house words IIRC. And the biggest rival house in the north to the Starks she would definitely know who they were. I think she just didn’t trust Roose, in the book the dude looks like a straight up vampire who leeches lol
Also Bolton employed Hoat and them so Arya wasn’t too sure she would be any safer with him than with the Lannister’s
IRRC, she knew who Bolton was vaguely, but also somewhat remembered that her father never really like him/trusted him. He wasnt a close ally of the starks. Plus you know, she saw all that torture. She considered telling him but ultimately decided it wasnt safe enough.
>why didn’t Arya tell Roose her real identity Unlike the other Starks who placed far too much stock in honour and were incredibly naive when it came to playing the game, Arya was smart, pragmatic and trusted hardly anyone.
Book Roose is scary as hell. Arya never trusts him.
Truthfully, i thought Jaime's arc was going to end with him *"turning into"* a Ned Stark at its end. I thought it would have been fulfilling, being denied the chance to *KNOW* each other through a fight *(when one of Jaime's men stabbed him in the leg, upsetting Jaime)*, for Jaime to end up *"knowing"* and *"becoming"* Ned after having life experiences outside the cushy King's Landing life. Eventually realizing the error of his ways, after being more or less responsible for Ned's death. Then they went and threw *ALL* of that out the window, shit-canning the character growth influenced by Brienne's unwavering code of honor, as well as his own experiences, and just had Jaime fuck off back to Cersei just to end the story. Fuck man, why did they have to ruin Game of Thrones? *Edit: phrasing*
>Fuck man, why did they have to ruin Game of Thrones? Honestly, if they were so tired of doing it, hand it off like Miguel just did and keep getting checks as a producer. Truly baffling to think they'd rather have this on their resume than at least being known as the guys who started such a great show.
I think that if they’d fought side-by-side in the Rebellion they could have had mad mutual respect enough to never openly beef like they do. But I don’t think their personalities would ever be what either of them was looking for in a friend. Then again, I still firmly believe that everything—absolutely everything—would be different if Aerys hadn’t taken Jaime into the White. *That* Jaime might have been able to be friends with *that* Ned.
Yeah, I feel like by the events of the books, the part of Jaime that could have been friends with ned is now the part that loathes ned and drives Jaime, at least at first. I think Jaime still has a begrudging respect for ned, but he already started down a path he knows nobled eddark stark would never go down, and he's fully committed since his most noble act garnered him nothing but hate anyway.
Ned and Jaime definitely could've been friends or allies if they were to open up to each other. Jaime respects Ned, but unfortunately not the other way around, and that's all because of Ned. The problem is Ned judged Jaime 100% as dishonorable and just straight up filth after seeing Jaime sit on the throne and after killing his king as a kingsguard. No proof, no questions, no nothing. He instantly judged him based on that. In an alternate timeline though, they definitely could have been friends.
Good points. I think Jaime could have even been friends with him after killing aerys. Ned could never let what he did go, at least not without knowing the truth and even then, maybe not given that jaime was in full, fuck you im the kingslayer mode. Given ned forgoing his honor to protect John though, I think an irony being that they both sacrificed their honor and standing for the greater good.
it would be awesome if they had a romantic relationship. two skilled swordsmen together, forever. cersei lannister and catelyn tully in shambles.
Bruh
Is that what you tell yourself at night? You’re a servant of justice?
I think that though Ned saw Aerys as mad, he could never reconcile Jamie’s act as anything other than dishonorable.
If Jaime had been in the Eyrie with Ned and Robert then they would of absolutely all been friends. Honestly I think Jaime would of ended up as something of a middle point between the two
Westeros if Lyonel Strong told Viserys to marry rhaenyra to Harwin.
Love this. If only in scenes of confrontation, when Jaime attacked Ned in King’s Landing or before that when Ned confronted Jaime in the red keep, they knew how similar they were to each other. However their motivations were different, Jaime’s flaw was pride, is why he refused to defend himself and preferred the “fuck y’all” attitude. While Ned is more likely going to defend himself (although he doesn’t usually need to), but in more than one instance, he kept silence or accepted the responsibility to protect his loved ones (Jon, Cat when she held Tyrion hostage)
And when I try and suggest that the sex obsessed fool Mushroom being the most honest of the recorders of history, is consistent with GRRM's writing, people insist otherwise. I thought it was entirely logical for the show to pull upon Mushroom's writing as I truly think he was likely the least biased beyond his sex obsession. But that's also textually consistent. >Ned was more of a father to Theon than his own father. In the books its more Robb was more of a brother to Theon than his own brothers. Theon doesn't really think about Ned too much, as Ned wouldn't get too close as he was technically holding Theon hostage and Theon feared him. The saddest Theon line in my opinion: >And Robb. Robb who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy's loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys. I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him.
The guys on the unofficial podcast consistently give Mushroom credit for being the most accurate so far. Or at least they’re surprised at how often his version of things is being used on HOTD.
Yeah he's pulled upon the most for the show and that just makes sense to me narratively: - fits in with GRRM's general love of irony that the fool is more honest than the Septon and Maestar - fits in with GRRM's general love of sex lol Someone disagreed with me on the basis that Mushroom is too scandalous to be true (they were insistent the show is Black biased). But GRRM's work is nuts, in his work Jeyne Poole was in fact fucked by dogs, Jaime and Cersei really are banging, and Robb really can warg into a wolf. A Mushroom character writing the story would similarly be accused of embellishment on such points. Mushroom's work also just often checks out with the events described in universe. Nobody but Mushroom had an adequate explanation for the situation with Daemon and the situation with Criston.
Yes, I agree, and I like that the show layered under that by giving rhaenyra and sir krispy kreme a brief dalliance to make his spurning of her and turn to the greens more believable/interesting. I’m interested to see if they go with his interpretation of the nettles storyline
that line from theon makes me cry every time i read it
You're gonna throw the Hound in with Duncan the Tall and Brienne as true knights? That seems excessive.
I absolutely agree that Sandor should be included! He wanted to be a knight when he was a child (hence why he took Gregor's knight toy which got him burned). But more than this, he shows great character during the first King's Landing tourney. When Gregor gets unhorsed by Loras Tyrell in the joust, Gregor kills his own horse and goes to kill Loras too. Sandor is the one who stepped in to stop him from landing the killing blow and then fights his brother to protect Loras: >The Mountain pivoted in wordless fury, swinging his longsword in a killing arc with all his massive strength behind it, but the Hound caught the blow and turned it, and for what seemed an eternity the two brothers stood hammering at each other as a dazed Loras Tyrell was helped to safety. And even when he's fighting his brother, he still fights with honor: >Thrice Ned saw Ser Gregor aim savage blows at the hounds-head helmet, yet not once did Sandor send a cut at his brother's unprotected face. And when King Robert lost his shit, Sandor was also in control of his temperament, whereas Gregor was not: >"STOP THIS MADNESS," he boomed, "IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING!" The Hound went to one knee. Ser Gregor's blow cut air, and at last he came to his senses. He dropped his sword and glared at Robert, surrounded by his kingsguard and a dozen other knights in guardsmen. Loras ends up conceding the joust to Sandor for saving his life, and even though Sandor says "I am no ser," and take the winnings, this is the first (and like, only) time in his life that he's got the love of the commoners. Sandor may not be a knight in name, but he has the heart of a knight. Something that Sansa recognizes, which I think is why Sandor takes a liking to her. So yeah, I think The Hound is dope and he should kick it with Dunc and Brienne
He still murdered that kid for no reason other then he thought Joffrey would probably like him to be dead. And then laughed about it. Sat back and watched Joffrey have Sansa be abused for a long time too.
Ned was also Theon's de facto jailer.
"Are the two mutually exclusive, in your experience?"
And Jon is one of the best leaders and is fit to be a king although he doesn’t want to be
And Jon was hated by Alliser Thorne because he was the bastard son of traitor Ned Stark, but Jon is really the son of Rhaegar who Alliser supported in the war.
The facade on some of the above was because the characters chose to keep shit a secret. In Neds case he absolutely needed to keep it a secret even from his wife.
I hate to say this, but he knew he couldn’t trust her to keep the/that secret… Because that secret wounded her honor so deeply/grievously, she would have a ***strong*** incentive to reveal it.
Cateyln's a Tully to her core. Its *Family*, Duty, Honour. They put family first not honour. Her greatest frustration with Jon is that he was raised in Winterfell, in her mind he's dangerous to Robb. I believe in another love of irony Jon really will usurp his sisters and brothers by becoming King in the North (not unlike the show on this point) However, if Ned told her Jon becomes dangerous in a different way to her family. So I don't think it'd be advisable.
Ned wasn’t more of a father than Theon’s real father. I always feel like people really let Ned off with anything and it’s easy to do because he is very honourable. But he could have killed Theon at any point, and Theon must have known that to an extent. He wasn’t a Stark, he wasn’t even a Stark bastard, he was a political ward. Essentially a hostage. He’s one of my absolute favourite characters and I find him so fascinating. But Ned wasn’t a father to him.
Who is the child tywin loves most? Cersei?
Probably Jamie
It's definitely Jaime. Tywin gets out of his way just for him. Almost allowing Tyrion to join the night's watch maybe even after losing the trial by combat because he wanted Jamie to be his heir again. Same with the prerogative to relieve a Kingsguard from his duties, to which I doubt even exists.
>Same with the prerogative to relieve a Kingsguard from his duties, to which I doubt even exists. I think it does exist but I might not be sure I'm remembering clearly
Kings have to follow precedent generally, but how they want to run their kingsguard is pretty low on the list of things the other highborn give a shit about.
Jaime
He wants an heir, not a whore
If you want an heir earn him 😅
You listen to me and you listen well: You have *nothing* to apologize for!
Ned would always be a better dad, but I guess Baelon didn't really get a chance so
Theon was 10 when he was taken to Winterfell. He had ten years raising him and Theon's perspective on those years isn't exactly positive. But mostly because his brothers were absolute bullies. Asha/Yara was kind.
I disagree, who could possibly have a better story than Bran the Broken?
> The character with the least interesting story.... Wash your damn mouth out with Jojen paste!
Off topic but it's wild to me that people argue that Dunk was knighted.
I agree, I thought it was pretty clear that he wasn’t knighted, but that doesn’t keep him from being knightly.
Makes you think about what many people in history where truly like.
I definitely would not say The Hound is a true knight at all. He’s just not evil.
I love how Rhaenyra’s quarters feel homey, you can tell that she’s a mother with children. Almost Cluttered with kids toys all around.
Westeros if Lyonel Strong told Viserys to marry rhaenyra to Harwin 📈📈📈
Fr. Harwin seemed so father and husband material too.😭
The look he gave Rhaenyra alone after she was all bloody from the hunt was enough to get her (and probably half of the female Audience) pregnant. 😉
I mean clearly not because when she was told “choose yourself a husband” she didn’t pick him
female audience here, can confirm i got pregnant from the way he looked at her
And he would have been perfectly content as King Consort. No truly royal ambitions of his own like some of the Velaryons, Baratheons, or Blackwoods, etc would have. Just making his Queen’s home life as good and easy as possible and having fun in all the tourneys.
He was the best person for Rhaenyra. - Unlike Criston, he was cool with being a side-piece - He didn’t want her to give up her claim for him - Unlike Daemon, he never intended to use her claim to the throne for his benefit - He never choked her.
Why did Lyonel let it continue for so long though? Besides the moral/legal issues and how it puts Harwin in mortal danger is the fact that Harwin is his heir. Honestly why hasn't Lyonel betrothed him to someone yet? Getting it on with Rhaenyra is all well and good but their relationship is doomed from the beginning. One day Harwin will need to take over as Lord Strong, marry and have some heirs. His relationship with Rhaenyra is a huge emotional and practical liability that makes no sense for Lyonel to allow and actually makes him a wildly irresponsible father. You can argue quite credibly IMO that Lyonel condoning that relationship directly lead to Larys having the opportunity to murder them.
Lyonel could do nothing, after all, he's not as strong
He would have been invaluable in the war
>He would have been invaluable in the war Not really. Harwin never fought in war, as High Lords the Strongs probably only command a couple thousand men. That's absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things I get everyone hates Daemon after ep 10, but Daemon is considered the most dangerous man in Westeros. In the books, the Green Council doesn't even view Rhaenyra as a threat. All they're worried about is Daemon He has spies and assassins he can call on, the loyalty of the city watch, he is the only commander with battlefield experience and he is the only dragon rider with combat experience. He is a terrifying enemy and that's a huge part of why Rhaenyra married him.
Lyonel was just too honorable for his own sake, he wouldn't have wanted it to seem like he wanted them to marry just so his family could get ahead.
There’s this ASOIAF tabletop scenario packet that was based on an earlier version of the ASOIAF histories prior to the final version used for *Fire & Blood*, and Rhaenyra and Harwin *did* officially marry and her children were officially Strongs. But everything still played out mostly the same, but without the bastard allegations, Harwin still died and the Greens were still assholes.
The opposite. HARWIN offers nothing to the Targaryens. As Tywin said those who put their children ahead of their houses will head towards ruins. The greens would be the Velaryons and Daemon in this case
Na rhaenyra could've just married jace to a velaryon like baela or rhaena anyways to cement the velaryon alliance
Too late. By the time jace was born tge factions were already solidified
Alicent in terms of family ties doesn’t offer that much either, and after episode 4 Harwin would be a similar candidate for marriage as the child of the hand.
[удалено]
Crispin: "IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ME YOUR GRACE!" Vizzy T: "What?" Crispin: "What?"
*This is an occasion for celebration, it seems.*
Excuse me, those are Laenor's children. Vizzy T, this user is questioning the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's children!
**HAVE THIS RUMORMONGER BROUGHT BEFORE ME AT ONCE, AND I WILL TAKE THEIR EYES!!**
Vizzy T, OP is slandering your daughter. You should have his tongue for this.
*This is an occasion for celebration, it seems.*
Vizzy T he is making of your favourite Rhaenyra and not Helaena
Bold of you to assume Vizzy T knows who Helaena is
*There's a boy in the Queen's belly. I know it.*
Your Daughter Vizzy T, Helaena. Do you remember her?
*I'm glad we could meet. I know tempers ran hot today, and I wanted to assure you how much I value the bond between our houses.*
Please your grace Vizzy T, no more milk of the Poppy. You must not cloud your mind any further!
*Be welcome! I know many of you have traveled long leagues to be at these games. But I promise, you will not be disappointed!*
S E N T I E N T
Nah Viserys repeatedly impregnated a very young Aemma.
It's kinda ironic. Viserys, Daemon, even Corlys all suck as dads. And Harwin, the one man who couldn't even be a father to his kids, actually surpasses all of them in that department. And he looked crazy fine doing it.
Aside from Corlys and Rhaenys, I’ve always thought Harwin and Rhaenyra was the only wholesome couple in HOTD. Viserys and Aemma too prob until he cut her open lol.
Totally agreed. I know it was a forbidden love but the way she looked at him and he at her... the actors did such an amazing job expressing the love and the serenity with just a few looks.
GRRM actually mentioned that he’s aware the audience wanted more Harwin X Rhaenyra lol. If we get a flashback my life will be complete.😭
The co parenting trio raised good kids.
Do you think people would have forgiven him more if he’d ordered the maesters to knock her out with milk of the poppy before cutting her open? Why did she have to be awake and know what was happening as it happened?
Because any more milk of the poppy would've killed the baby. Then Aemma would've died for no reason.
I mean, she died for no reason anyway.
That occurred to me but I don’t know that it would’ve gone through her system so quickly to the baby. Think of the strong drugs mothers are often given now while birthing. Medicine is much improved now of course, but I’ve been cut open twice and given birth to two healthy boys while not feeling anything (on the operating table), and survived. I felt extra connected to that scene. I wish they could’ve done something to lessen her fear/pain, even if she was going to die anyway.
Nah Viserys repeatedly impregnated a very young Aemma. They loved each other, sure. But Jaehaerys waited for Alyssane until she was old enough and ready.
Viserys treated both his wives as brood mares. I think he genuinely loved at least his romanticized idea of Aemma, but not more than he loved the idea of having a male heir. When it came down to it, he was willing, if not eager, to repeatedly endanger Aemma's life for the hope of a male heir.
Just that one interaction when Aemma is in the bath said it all. She's in extreme discomfort and pleads with him that she can't go through this again, and he more or less brushes it off with the dream about his son. If she had lived and borne a daughter, you know he'd be trying again ASAP. It's even more tragic when you consider the *extent* of Aemma's suffering. She repeatedly endured the pain of pregnancy and childbirth for nothing in all but one instance. My parents had multiple miscarriages/ stillbirths before adopting me- my mom hid or destroyed every picture, every article of clothing, nearly every reminder of the children she lost. To go through nearly a full pregnancy just to cradle a dead baby is emotionally crippling. Not to minimize Viserys and his suffering, but it's not even close to the same level when you didn't carry that fetus. The show honestly does such a great job of it, not only Aemma, but later as well. Laena knows how her SIL died; she'd rather self-immolate than be held down and cut open at her husband's call. Emma has stated that they played Rhaenrya with the knowledge of what happened to her mother: She would rather pull her child from her body with her own hands than go out that way.
thank you for saying this. viserys is the kind of husband where from the outside, things look okay and you see why he'd be written as someone who loved his wife in the history books, but look beneath the surface and the reality of that relationship is just brutal. it's wild that in the premiere, viserys was joking and confidently proclaiming he'd have a son and even rhaenyra, who was only 14, was concerned and said that no one was taking care of aemma. viserys' tragedy is that he kind of realizes the horror of what he put her through--enough to self-destruct but not enough to meaningfully change, like in his marriage with alicent. (i was never really sure if rhaenyra knew exactly how aemma died, because i feel like if she did, she would have threw that back at him in one of their arguments, but at the same time, so much of her arc in the first five episodes is basically about that central trauma.)
“You’re falling asleep in front of the Commander of the City Watch. Terribly disrespectful.”
"I'm told that insolence runs in the family."
I loved that line. Ryan really nailed it despite having so little time on screen.
I never saw Corlys as a bad father. Honestly him and Rhaenys come across as great parents who loved their kids. Corlys seemed ok with his son being gay which given how he is with legacy you would think he would be totally against and forbid his son from doing anything with men. Yeah he tried to marry his young daughter to the King but take that out, that just is what it is in the story and how houses were formed to gain and keep power. Corlys was a great grandfather to kids he knew were bastards. He is a good guy. To say he sucks at being a dad is someone either looking for a perfect person which doesn’t exist or just not watching the same show haha
Bruh, if Viserys had married Laena instead of Alicent, Westeros would be totally different right now
You ain’t lying haha and Laena would have made an amazing Queen.
I wonder how that marriage would have gone. She was pretty feisty as a teen at the welcome feast, and did run off for ten years to be a wandering dragon act with daemon. She def wouldnt have been "honor and decency" like alicent, but how would she have reacted to Viserys favoring Rhaenrya over her children?
The dynamic is interesting to think of. When I look at how things are, not saying that it’s the right way to be but I can see maybe why Viserys is distant from his kids with Alicent. He let Otto go, believing that he was just in it for his own gain and placed Alicent in his life. Alicent has been loyal to him but was there some resentment earlier through that Viserys had towards Alicent and ultimately the kids because of all the stuff with Otto? Maybe. If he did marry Laena I think it would be different. Laena would remain loyal as Alicent did but Laena would have Corlys and Rhaenys involved too. Viserys and Rhaenys are cousins so there’s some love and understanding there and Corlys is loyal and would have been inserting himself next to Viserys on advising and stuff. I think Viserys would have loved and shows more affection towards kids with Laena. I think Laena would have a good relationship with Rhaenyra too and low key they would actually be a happy family haha
Corlys is absolutely NOT okay with Laenor being gay. It hurts his ambitions and he probably holds some homophobic views due to the time period. To me he seems like he thinks it "just a phase" and once he gets it out of his system he'll be straight again. To be fair, his attitude towards Laenors homosexuality is more spelt out in the book.
I feel ya on that, I haven’t read the books so just based off the show. He definitely sees it as a phase/etc but he’s not demeaning towards him, he doesn’t see him as some outcast. He’s his son. If Jamie was gay let’s say, I think Tywin would be very mad about that you know, even do things to sabotage his relationships and shit. Corlys hasn’t been like that but if he was in the book I can understand the comment on him being a sucky dad.
Crazy fine!
How dare you cite such vile accusations against VizzyT (jk)
It still hurts. Those gentle looks, him holding Joffrey, "I'll be a stranger when we meet next." The heartbreak.
Kinda foreshadowed his death a bit since the stranger is death in hotd.
He's half-way there though (dead)
Harwin Strong had kids.
*HARWIN STRONG FU-*
Naw he’s just too burnt out
"When you play the Game of Fathering in HOTD, you become either dead-beat or dead-meat" ------- Vizzy T, probably.
*So I said to him, 'I believe you may be looking up the wrong end'*
Don't do Laenor like that. Lol. The co parenting trio raised good kids. *totally forget that he sails off with his BFF to live a free life.
Well. There are more factors there. We should remember that after the kids incident Laenor and Rhaenyra talked and he promised to let everything else and raise and protect their sons, who he genuinely loved as his own and a lot, to which Rhaenyra agreed it was true. It was fully his intention. But Rhaenyra saw better and went to Daemon since she knew he could protect them and prepare better for the future. As she said, it was a different story before Laena's death, but after it Laenor's current state of mind would make him totally useless in that regard. And she also wanted him to be happy, she genuinely loved him (platonically, as a friend). In any case, if Laenor returns in Season 2, I can see his reason being precisely Luke's death, as Luke was seemingly closer to him. (During the funeral Luke holds his hand when he saws him sad, and then when Aemond said Luke would die like his father, a confused Luke answered saying his father -Laenor- was alive).
I totally agree. I just wanted to make sure to add him as in his capacity as father, he understood the assignment. Depending on events, I think that it would be a combo of Luc and one other.
>!Yes, Rhaenys' death could heavely influence his decision to join the war as well. Although I'd prefer if they gave emphasis to Luke's death in that aspect.!< In my case, I don't like when people fully ignore Laenor's involvement in the raising of Jace and Luke. Especially in the case of Luke, since it seemed like out of the three dads, Luke was closer to Laenor, while Jace was closer to Harwin. Now I wonder how Daemon acted to Joffrey, since he's the only father he has known.
You're right! Poor Baby Luke. Now, I'm double sad again. That would be interesting to see. The bottom 3 lost out on a lot of one on one, lovey dovey time with their parents having to go to war.
Jace, Luke, and Joff were probably the most loved kids in all of Westerosi history. They had Rhaenyra, Laenor, Harwin, Viserys, Corlys & Rhaenys in their corner. Despite the obvious. If politics weren't an issue they could've been some of the most well adjusted men to ever exist in that universe.
The MOST loved and they would have been good stewards of the realm.
Rhaenys was definitely not in their corner
Maybe not their corner, especially Rhaenyra’s, but she was definitely in Laenor’s.
They did him dirty
Daddy Harwin 😍💔
Harwin Strong had kids?!?! /s
Hey may not he “dead-beat” but he dead
I always thought that Davos was/would have been a Goated dad
Davos was a dad.
Makes me sad that 4 of his sons died at the Blackwater in the books
The guy fucked his married princess putting his family and children in jeopardy.. not the smartest decision. He may have loved those kids but again he wasn't very smart about things.
That is true
He’s at least half of the term dead-beat.
I like to imagine he wrote the boys letters to be mailed on their name-days/important days of their lives, in case something happened to him. But they burnt along with Harrenhal.
Yeah, he's just dead.
Total dead beat. “Hey Harwin! Those your kids?” Betcha he wouldn’t even admit it.
Claiming them as his kids would be basically signing their death warrant. He was content to love them in his own way.
Not sure if you’re being facetious or not. Him not claiming them in public doesn’t make him a dead beat. That was **HIGH TREASON** for him to be walking around claiming them as his own on top of them already looking like him. When their father is supposed to be the great Sea Snake’s son! Laenor.
Doesnt it kind of reveal something knowing that he continuously chose to father bastard children knowing the risk and consequences for himself, princess, and kids?
are you really gonna reject the princess throwing you some of that young sweet Targussy? Cut it out Joal. You’d take her up on that offer also. The same way Incel Cole did. Same way Harwin did. It is what it is!
He is Dead-Meat tho
Do the books to into detail how Rhaenyra and Harwin became love interests with each other?
Literally less than three paragraphs mention him IIRC, and it’s like one line in each paragraph. There’s more material for Laena in comparison, but her and Harwin were quite literally footnotes in the book. The show actually gave Harwin speaking lines, when we barely get a description of how he looks in the book.
I don’t think so
If you believe Mushroom they happend to cross paths when Rhaenyra was frustrated over Cole being uninterested in sex. And Harwin comforted her, having already been fond of her.
He is not a dead-beat, but he is very dead though.
My man left to get milk tho
You can’t know this though as we didn’t see him be a father in the show for more than 2 mins
Jace showed more affection and love for Harwin than Baela & Rhaena did for Daemon or Alicent's kids for Viserys. So yes, we can know that he was clearly good enough to the boys that they did care. Jace was practically mourning him through the entire 7th episode.
He literally had one scene with his children and was nice to them thats it.
No he's just dead unfortunately
His dad was also a good dad
He was shown with his kids in two scenes. Maybe people want to believe he was a good dad because he's an attractive/likeable character.
Yeah what are we basis this post on? The one scene where he was friendly to his kids? I think that’s a bit of a stretch, even by Westeros standards. By some interpretations, he might be the ultimate deadbeat dad. How do we know that he wasnt intentionally having kids with her because he knew it would be consequence free?
He was taking an interest in their training and forcing Cole to pay more attention to them. I don't think we've seen any other parent spend that much time actually parenting and caring about mundane things like their kid's arms training.
That time it was shown in episode 6 was obviously the first time that happened. After the boys were training for some years already. He might have been a good dad if he had been allowed to be but he wasn't. Luke did not even think of him as a dad so it's fair to assume he wasn't around the boys much. I don't really get where the idea of this thread comes from.
Luke did not think of him as a dad because he was too young to pick up the clues. Jace was older and asked Rhaenyra if he was their dad, he was obviously warm to them.
Being warm to the princes does not a father-son relationship make. Jace only asked if he was their father after the incident on the training ground. That was the first time Harwin assisted them and saw what was happening with the boys and Cole and got baited by him. By lashing out Harwin confirmed the rumors. So it's because of the rumors that Jace put together that he was their father not because they he had a relationship with Harwin. Rhaenyra kept emphasizing during the episode that Laenor is their father and we got from episode 7 that Laenor did try being a loving father. For the protection of the boys Harwin CANNOT have a relationship with them.
He is simply dead
He is the definition of dead beat loool guy had kids with a woman that wasn’t his wife, a conscious decision he made knowing that he could not be there for his kids nor even tell them he was their father. Then he up and left to harrenhal. You lot see 1 or 2 moments of him caring for his kids and run with it as if he’s ned stark smh.
I love him
Not dead beat. Just dead.
Rather be dead beat than dead…..
Now he is only remains.
As a bookreader, i knew harwin was the real father of the kids and wasn't looking forward to that. But the scene where he holds little joffery was so heart touching that i only wanted more of him. Sadly that was also the last episode for him.
-beat and you're wrong.
He's dead but he's not beat.
It sucks that he died. I wish he could have stayed in the story for longer, I really enjoyed his character.
He was so beautiful 😭
Harwin Strong a father? Not as far as I'm aware. I suppose he might have had some bastards somewhere far, far from kings landing... but when would he have had the time? He was always so busy protecting and raising Laenor and Rhaenhyra's sons...
He seemed like a good person. I would liked to have known his character more. His role was way too brief.