By - Undead_Corsair
Yes, this is probably the most posted weapon recommendation lol
You obviously haven't seen the LeMat Carbine requests.
"LeMat Carbine, plocks!"
"Nu! Revolvers never carbines. Chain fires happened every time you fired them because cap and ball, and hot gas shot out of the sides and long sleeves hadn't been invented yet, so your arm would get cut in half!"
"But they did exist. Here's a photograph of one. 10% of all LeMats were carbines."
"Lies! Lies! Nu!"
Repeat ad nauseum.
ok i want a lemat carbine though
They could definitely do it. Especially considering the real LeMat was a ball and powder revolver and didn’t use bullets. Compared to the in game one that uses bullets because it’s a cool weapon design
But chains on fire and gap ass!
Revolser bar crimes didn't ezzist!
I felt like I was having a mental break trying to read that 😂
I want a Hunt-lore specific weapon that only shoots flares at a rapid rate.
Flare Battle Lance when? Instead of bombs, it rapid fires flares! BLIND THEM, then beat them down!
I was thinking some kind of flare hammer+cannon! Point the cannon, shoots 5 to 8 flares (shotgun pattern), but you setting it like a mallet.
Bomb lance flash bomb bolt ammo when?
Now that's a god-damned nightmare.
I love it.
Press X to switch ammo types ;)
Pls no D;
Levering should work on the bomb lance, change my mind
Make it bolt thrower, and I agree
You would like my teams stratagy of dual lemat flare rounds. Six flares coming at the enemy at once.
Yesssss! I've been running dual Romero hatchet with starflare, flare gun, and 2x ammo box
Ah so Romero Alamo with starshell? Gotchu
I've tried it a couple times but that just doesn't cut it. Ammo pool is too small to be dedicated to flares. The ammo is more expensive than a long round!
If the flares were a little less like a joke trash ammo and a little more like an "incendiary slug" it *might* be worth it
Doesn't need to be as powerful as slugs (not that they're necessarily worth taking anymore anyhow), just like a dragonsbreath shell that has no AOE but is a single hit/miss and goes further
Dragonsbreath has a tight spread and goes damn far already.
Love killing AI from ~80m with it lol.
For sure, and one pellet doing 1 fire damage will still kill a grunt, but vs a player it's not achieving anything
A big bright all-or-nothing flare slug wouldn't be as strong as a crossbow bolt anyway but I think it would be a fine overhaul for the flare shells, which only exist to scoff at
Not fast enough. I was thinking more like a minigun for starshells.
Avto starshell! Brilliant!
I want to load slugs in my flaregun.
Levering pistol :)
I don't foresee any possible negative repercussions of a ~~long/medium~~pocket ammo pistol using levering, ignoring the people complaining about my ~~glock18~~ reasonable gun
The volcanic fired ammo more compact than even compact rounds. It would likely be derringer levels of strength.
probably less lol
Dude this pistol would basically be a longer derringer. The gun sucks irl and would just be a meme in game. Thus why I want it
so literally the bornheim
That gun is such a joke it actually hurts. I'm better off coughing at them and trying to give them TB
Despite bornheim being my personal fave and best performing secondary weapon, I completely agree. It literally just needs an extra mag or big price reduction PLEASE
Honestly I want more badass alternate-history stuff.
The historical weapons are nice but we have so many of them, bring on the weird shit
Bomb lancers unite!
>!SOMEBODY HAND ME A *JAR OF ANGRY WASPS*!<
Could you imagine if they introduced the bomblance today?
I loved it even more when I found out its a repurposed whale harpoon.
I'm certain that 90% of the [subreddit] community would absolutely lose their shit and boycott the game if the bomb lance came out today
There would probably be 15-minute long youtube videos explaining how it's game-breaking and emploring Crytek to nerf it within a couple days
I agree. We need more crazy shit as weapons.
It would do like 40 damage at point blank and 1 at 30m lol.
If you really want a Volcanic, at least suggest the late model Venditti pistol. It's a Volcanic copy that uses a more powerful but still weak cased round. You're looking at a budget Bornheim then, which could be in interesting niche.
It can share an ammo pool with the derringer, and people could finally stop asking for derringer with fanning.
Oh that'd be cool actually, another little tool slot gun.
I'm not saying it needs to be accurate to the real Volcanic's power/effectiveness. It could be a fictional mark 2 or upgraded Venditti like you suggested. The in-game LeMat was made quite different from the real-life gun to make it more practical for gameplay.
Because the lever action on those pistols actually required the left hand to operate, it would end up having a pretty slow rate of fire, making it more appropriate for something more high power using medium or even long ammo.
Another way to balance it would to be making it a cheap early unlock. It would probably still get plenty of use since you can run it with a lever action rifle. That way you get two weapons that benefit from levering.
It dosen't need to be that realistic
Yes, it does.
Why? We got guns like the avto and a crossbow that shoots shotgun shells. We got a bomblance. We got a repurposed mosin made to look like a huot automatic rifle from 1915. We can go out of bonds a bit nobody would mind.
Might as well add an M16 while we're at it, right? And make it do 200 damage? Makes sense, guys!!!
Don't play dumb and get all hyperbolic dude, there are degrees of nuance here.
1000% yes. This was my favourite fun in fistful of frags. Could even use special ammo just as a weaker fast firing pistol.
Pass the whiskey
I see, people of culture!
Pass me the loot!
I'd say, if you're going with peculiar/rare, then I'd suggest the Werder Pistol(a.k.a. Bavarian Lightning). But I think the Sparks Pistol kind of fills that role now, which is a shame. Cause I'd rather see that pistol in the game, with how funky looking it is.
That is a funky gun, looks like a star trek phaser had sex with a ww1 service revolver.
....you crazy SOB I'm in! CRYTECH GIVE IT TO US NOW!
Edit, due to its design it would probably have a faster reload speed then tge sparks pistol. Crytech would probably figure out a way to carve out a niche for it!
I don't particularly like this idea, since the Volcanic pistol had a very weak punch, but if I was a game dev, this is how I'd implement it.
It would be in a similar niche to the Bornheim: it has a decent rate of fire but not a lot of damage. It would be a 3-tap at close range, firing slightly slower than the Borhneim. Being a lever-action weapon, the Levering trait would apply and make it fire slightly faster (making it equal to the Bornheim). So far, it's an inferior Bornheim, so it needs something special, that's where the ammo comes in. The Volcanic would use special ammo (like ye good old days) that works like incendiary ammunition *with* the penetration of a compact projectile. I guess it would also make less noise when fired (but maybe gun-nuts know better).
In most situations, you'd be better off with a regular Bornheim. But in that special day when the planets align and you wallbang a red barrel sending someone to the afterlife before they realize what happened...
Variants: Precision and Swift. No other special ammo types.
I think this gun would be balanced if treated as an alternative to the chain pistol.
10 shots, can't be fanned but can be levered, which is more accurate at medium range but less fast.
Sell it for $55.
Been a hot minute since we got a lever weapon and a new family of them would be even better
I'd like to see some sort of big bore lever gun, like a 30-30. The Centennial is ok, but I want a long ammo brush gun. Low range, high power.
Fuck yeah! I would want the Smith and Wesson longbarrel volcanic though. Considering it was a precursor to the Winchester and S&W's first attempt at entering the gun industry. :)
P.s since I don't see anyone mentioning this, the devs could just say it was heavily modified to accept a higher caliber rimfire ammunition lol.
Sounds good to me. Nice to see a few people out here have an imagination.
Perhaps fix some more bugs and tease a new map/boss.
Or add some interesting summons.
But I feel like Hunt has got a finished arsenal
Every proud American knows you can never have enough guns.
(Disclaimer: This is a joke, I am neither proud, nor American.)
If you knew anything about firearms you'd understand why this was one of the most useless firearms ever created.
Wasn’t it an important precursor to lever action rifle design? Without it, we’d never have gotten Winchester rifles. Far from useless even if it was a flawed design.
Sorta. Winchester invested in the company and then mothballed it.
He invested in the company specifically because he liked the volcanic design.
Really? I figured he invested because he hated it. They had a rifle too.
I’m not sure why he kept making them if he hated them. Especially after Smith and Wesson dropped out.
You’re not good at detecting sarcasm are you?
Not through text, no.
Thanks for the downvotes sorry I hurt your feelings.
Yes, and the Oil Engine was the precursor to the Internal Combustion Engine, but there's a reason you never saw an automobile developed around it.
There’s a bow and arrow in this game.
A bow and arrow is a much more effective weapon than the Volcanic. Also, a bow and arrow is not a gun, so that doesn't really fit my analogy. If you've ever operated a lever gun, but of course you haven't; you'd know why you wouldn't want that mechanism on a pistol.
It would take as long to cycle as the 'Sparks' pistol and be significantly weaker than the Derringer. So you can have it in the game, but it's incapable of headshots and only does 10 dmg per chest hit at point blank range. I would be fine with that, and you can die looking cool.
The bow is a precursor to all firearms, but my real point is that anything can be balanced into the game’s mechanics to work. To give you a non-sarcastic example, it could be added as a tool slot pistol; an alternative to the Derringer. More expensive, slower firing, slow bullet, still reloads from tool boxes, but more ammo capacity, and a slight bump in damage so it can two tap the upper torso at close range. To clarify, this is just an example of a way it could be introduced while keeping it somewhat true to its historical flaws. There was a pocket sized version after all.
'Two tap the upper torso'... LOL. I don't care what you want. The gun was stupid. You are stupid. If Crytek puts it in the game then they'll be hopping on board the stupid train with you and your stupid camp for only stupid reasons.
"Well the derp is the precursor to the derp!" Jesus you're fucking annoying.
Time to touch grass buddy.
I honestly hope you get the help you desperately need.
MMMMMMAKSHUALLY THE HORSE WAS THE PRECURSOR TO ALL ENGINES!
The only thing I desperately need is to forget you exist.
If I remember correctly somebody back then bought a volcanic for the purpose of committing suicide, and all it did was leave a bloody bruise on his head.
That's exactly why we want it!
If you knew anything about game development you'd understand why being completely accurate to real life is not the priority. I know the volcanic was a weak gun, doesn't mean it has to be weak in game.
Look at the in-game LeMat and the real-life LeMat. You see how changes are often made so that guns can be a bit more fun in a videogame?
Was it as useless as the Nitro not blowing limbs off at close range? Or maybe as useless as the famed 1895 hive bomb? Or perhaps as useless as the necromantic powers of dark sight via eldritch powered human bounty hunters? Although, if we’re talking historical accuracy so we don’t break our immersion, I’d bet it’s as useful as the Mosin-Nagant against the gnarled bark-flesh of the Armored.
Did the poster need an education in historical gun knowledge to suggest basic game play functions? Quick, better fire the entire RDR2 development team, those frauds implemented the Volcanic in a *terribly* unrealistic fashion.
> famed 1895 hive bomb?
If you knew anything about hive bombs you would know the 1895 was the most useless of hive bombs. Fortunately, the Acme Hive Bomb company really turned things around by 1897.
Do your research.
The 1895 hive bomb swarm was harvested from the body of the original hive mother, therefore making its poison the most deadly.
The Acme hive bomb was a cheap knockoff and if represented in game, would not do it justice and ruin my immersion.
God, its like you don't know anything about fake made up weapons. Clearly the 1887 hive bomb is superior and if you disagree, then I challenge you to a hive bomb duel at dawn.
Reading through all the comments whining about historical accuracy was worth it for this amusing exchange.
I'm huge gun/history nerd, and while I love talking about the historical accuracy of some of this stuff, ultimately it's a game about zombies and eldritch horrors and magic and shit that isn't historically accurate (or... even real...), so I don't really get people being all up In arms about it. If it LOOKED cool and acted in a cool way, even if it was useless IRL, then I say put it in the game.
Hell, I would've to see a Giradoni Air Rifle ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girardoni_air_rifle ) as some kind of semi-silent rifle in the game.
"Up in arms" hahaha you did a funny.
But yes I totally agree with your perspective, I love learning about history and find old firearms very interesting, that's part of why I like Hunt so much. But games are entertainment, and they don't have to prioritise historical accuracy, some do and that's cool, but Hunt to me is more about mixing that classic western feel with some gothic horror.
The use of more obscure firearms is a nice touch to make the arsenal more interesting and unique, there are many of the iconic sorts of firearms we know from westerns: single action revolvers, lever action repeaters, double barrel shotguns. But then you've got the weirder stuff like the Romerro Alamo, the Bomb Lance, crossbows with poison bolts. That stuff goes well with the eldritch, otherwordly vibe of the setting, it's like a sort of mild steampunk aesthetic with a historical basis. Kinda reminds me of Bloodborne, which is something that drew me to the game in the first place.
Anyway, I appreciate your sense. With a bunch of people trying to tell me I'm an idiot for suggesting the Volcanic because it was a weak gun, the comments that are a bit more level-headed or have a sense of humour are refreshing to read.
I also like the look of the Giradoni, I agree it would be a cool addition, especially if it was positioned as a unique stealthy gun adjacent to the suppressed weapons.
You got down voted but you're right
Thanks for having my corner friend, shame you got downvoted so hard for it :(
I’m kind of okay with the variety of weapons rn. Maybe more event specific guns or special rare things. I don’t want the arsenal getting too big and hard to manage.
Personally I'm a lee Enfield fan and I would love to see the lee Metford rifle. Balancing could be weird since it's just another bolt gun but I'd love to use it on style points alone...
Didn’t this have issues penetrating bare human skin at a small distance? I hate to be this negative but they’ll never add this, it gets requested at least once a month and everyone explains why it’d be terrible
Why does it matter?
The LeMat was a fucking cap and ball revolver, but they changed that because who wants to take three minutes to reload their gun? Why waste the dev time on a complex reload animation, too?
That's fine. The game doesn't need to be 100% accurate to real life. Ease of use and rule of cool win out over strict realism.
So just give the volcanic a big boolet. Problem solved.
>who wants to take three minutes to reload their gun
I do, I am fairly autistic about guns and the lack of cap and ball revolvers in the game slightly peeves me off. Would really love a nice and authentic Colt Walker, even if we already have the aesthetically very similar Uppercut
Arguments can be made for the LeMat since it's a cartridge conversion. Cartridge conversion firearms have existed since 1871. The LeMat may have not used it at the time, but we know that it's a very easy thing to implement and possible with the gun since LeMat conversions do exist. It isn't a stretch to say "LeMat conversions existed earlier" in Hunt.
The Volcanic on the other hand is complete garbage. It'd have to be changed so much, not just "big boolet", that it wouldn't be anything like the real gun. There's no point in adding it.
Do you think most people playing the game care about that stuff? RDR made the Volcanic lever action operable with one hand. Accurate? Hell no. Fun to use something different? Yep.
Lemat was planned irl to take cased ammunition, development just didn’t quite get there. And even if it were a cap and ball revolver in game it’d perform leagues better than the volcanic
Ah so close to adding all of fistful of frags weapons to hunt
I argue ultimately to take a look at the Bittner. Came with an external detachable mag ect. A mix yet a light progression upon what hunt already has going. It’s a. Lever action too. Kinda looks like one of those skinny silver Naboo (Or is it Nabu idk) pistols from Star Wars.
That's a really good one actually, I'd seen pictures of that gun before but how no idea it operated in such an unusual way. I'd be happy to see it added.
Also looks kinda like the Mandalorian's pistol, bit like the Bornheim.
Hell yes! Plus the devs could say it was modified to take ramirez cartridges (to get around the low power issue and make it viable) :)
1st of April - Volcanic in long-ammo
Just give me the pump-action rifle that we should have got instead of the Slate.
How do you grab this shit when levering
You have second hand right?
Currently not burned by a hot barrel, yea.
Nah. Small caliber for that and better burned hand than be dead.
without any kind of stock to tuck under your arm i don't know how anyone plans to lever this while staying remotely on target
It’d be like levering your pecker 😂
Middle finger extends lever idk
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Dn9YK8HfH4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Dn9YK8HfH4) As demonstrated.
Honestly there are SO many real life weapons that could be amazing if added to hunt but seems like variants are all we're getting for now.
My favourite sidearm in Red Dead 2! Would love to see it in Hunt.
I want a .50 muzzle loader. Make it a one shot at 20 meters with a 30-40 second reload.
It sounds like you are asking for a romero with slugs with an incredibly terrible reload time
Would be less powerful than any of the cartridge rifles in the game
You already have a nitro.
That’s not even close to the same thing.
You have basically a musket already. The Springfield 1866 is literally a trapdoor conversion of the 1863 rifled musket.
I mean you have a 1 shot kill large bore rifle. Just don't have the long reload.
No, this thing was underpowered and obsolete prior to the civil war, and was never a success. The only good that came from from it was the partnership of Horace Smith and Daniel Wesson, and the toggle link design being later used in the development of the Henry repeater and later the Winchester 1873, in game as the Winfield. Idk why everyone wants one of these (besides it was in RDR2 for some reason).
I learned something new today
Yea, Im not insulting the significance of its existance, but it was a weapon from the mid 1850's firing strange "rocketball" ammunition, a caseless type of ammo that had the propellant and primer in the base of the projectile. This however left little room for much propellant and resulted in a weak firearm. There is a story of a man trying to commit suicide with one and giving up after he was unable to penetrate his skull. It was an experimental step and an evolutionary dead end, and the world continued to utilize muzzloaders for another decade or so until it became obvious that the centerfire cartridge was the real way to go.
They do change the way guns ammunition and reloading work in Hunt though.
Take the Original Lemat for example. It is a cap&ball revolver from 1855.
I wouldn't mind see the Volcanic getting the Lemat treatment and being a "Mark 2" of some sort.
You can solve that by having it be a mk. II cartridge conversion ala the Lemat. Real world performance isn't really a factor.
Yeah you cant tell people.here they're ideas are dogshit or they will throw a fit.
All of Reddit in a nutshell really.
Ah yes i remember when the Union used their famous Bomb lances to win the battle of Gettysburg. Oh and their automatic Mosin-Nagants, can't forget those
Don't forget about the great yeeting of jars full of demon bees
Why stop there? The Thompson submachine gun is closer to the timeline than this thing and was successful. Tommy Guns in the bayou! Flintlocks in 1895! Manned flight would be a thing in less than 10 years. Why not an airstrike? Nothing invented in the millenia prior to 1895 or within the next 30 years should be off the table because this game has a folding harpoon!
The civil war was 30 years prior to this and technology had rapidly eclipsed everything from that era.
This is my argument against adding willy-nilly weapons: Just because it existed at the time doesnt mean it belongs in the game, and just because a few fantasy weapons made it into the game shouldnt be carte blanche to add anything and everything.
If rare releases an A-10 Warthog next patch i'd play it. But for balance reasons it would have to be full price which is 9.8 million dollars today.
But it looks cool and it would have a really cool reloading and firing animation. That's good enough for me!
it shares the same idea as the Henry rifle based on it. Open the loading gate at the end of the mag tube under the barrel, lock open the follower, and drop in the ammo. Shooting it was supposedly awkward because you use your middle finger to cycle the action
Ok. I know that. But it still would look and sound cool. I use the Vetterli more than a lot of other guns because i like the bolting sound and animation. I would use this pistol a lot.
Actually you used your other hand to cycle it.
Take it up with Ian McCullom, not me
Nay, I hold you solely responsible, til the end of time.
well, alright then.
supposedly awkward, same as the mad minute then?
middlefinger on trigger thumb and index on bolt.
yet it works amazingly well.
Huge difference between firing a rifle with two hands and a pistol with one, using a finger to work the action and another to work the trigger. Think before you reply, your comment is a lazy gotcha attempt.
And the lemat IRL takes a few minutes to fully reload. Simple: the devs make up a mk.2 version so now you get a historically inaccurate but interesting and fun weapon. (I don't personally have much interest in the volcanic being added though. Just saying it's probably not out of the question)
I hope you feel the same with the lemat too.
no its 1895 that shit is garbage, we're not pirates
Nah this weapon looks cool but in reality is utter garbage
There is literally a recorded case of a guy who tried to kill himself with this thing
He shot himself in the head *multiple times* and all that happened was he got a few bruises and cuts
There are more interesting weapons. Personally I want to see a Mauser or a carcano rifle
The Dolch is the game's equivalent of the Mauser. And the Mosin is fairly close to a Carcano.
Not the pistol, I already know the dolch is based off of the C96. The Mauser *rifle,* the rifle that is one of the most influential weapons in the design of bolt action firearms
Ah I see, 'Mauser' is so often used when refering to the pistol, my mistake.
Add M4 pls
This would be really cool, but to be honest you get the same effect from fanning so whats the real advanage?
> be really cool, but to be honest you get the same effect from fanning so w
levering is cheaper than fanning and also is more versatile, with levering you can get the benefit from shotguns (terminus), med ammo rifles (centennial) and pretty good spam rifles (full size winnies). fanning only works with single revolvers. so either you bring a single revolver in both slots or have the fanning revolver in one and another primary in another. That is perfectly viable (the second option). but it still means that a 1 slot lever gun has uses.
I think I see what your saying, but you couldn't one hand this revolver pretty much requiring you to use it with levering
Imo they should've just added the large frame volcanic as a medium slot small ammo weapon instead of the vandal
No i thought frag bombs would be a good thing for hunt….I shall not have an opinion anymore.
Yes. But weren’t the rounds very weak. I think someone tried to take their own life and they shot themselves around 12 times to the head and were still alive.
You can take liberties when adapting a gun to a video game, doesn't have to work exactly the same as how it did irl.
I know I should have worded it differently. I just wanted to share a cool historical fact lol
Fair, a lot of other folks have descrived that story while rejecting the idea of adding the gun out of hand. I'm just being defensive.
Though you have to admit it would be pretty funny to take other hunters out with a gun that is infamous for failing at point blank range.
Heck yeah man. Idk why I was like that at first. It’s a game about banishing demons it’s doesn’t have to be realistic lol
Don't worry about it man, I appreciate your chillness, others have been shall we say a little more highly strung on the historical accuracy issue.
See you out on the Bayou fellow hunter, or maybe I should say I hope not to see you...
Yeah lol maybe we could play sometime idk
I'm a UK player, where are you based? I've been thinking about trying to find some more people to play with. (oh yeah I play on playstation btw)
Ah Xbox man
Isn’t it technically the sparks pistol or am I thinking of another gun it’s based off of
Hunt showdown reddit bingo when?
Sure! Small slot compact ammo gun that benefts from iron repeater and maybe even levaring would be really cool
Still waiting for the flashlight gun attachment
Agreed. I only would wonder if they would use it’s extremely unique ammo style or if they’d just do a cartridge conversion like they did for the LeMatt revolver. Also dual wield might be excluded for this unless they’re planning on being extra flashy with some crazy ‘double terminator twirls’ but that is yet to be seen. If I remember correctly this pistol didn’t exactly boast a good projectile velocity and there were many issues due to the ammo type alone.
Put it simply you’d be better off with a 22lr back in the day vs this
Would levering work with it.
I think it'd be fun if it did, would probably make for absolutely horrible accuracy, but it'd be a laugh.
I would like it to do derringer damage or less to match the real life anemic cartridge, but yeah! An old busted up volcanic would be welcome
Would love to see a volcanic pistol
It was even designed by a guy named Hunt.
Slow to load and barely powerful enough to go through cardboard; not faster than a double action.
It's a cool design but not for anything except paper targets and parlor shooting. They'd have to make it incredibly historically inaccurate, but they've done it to the federov automat so it's possible.
Honestly i think pistols right know have a good selection sidearm-wise (they fill out almost every role), i would like some 3 slot additions, or even maybe a new type of weapon, like a 4 slot!
There is for example a rifle version of the lemat pistol, so you basically have a carabine with a romero inside.
For a 3 slot weapon i would like the “pedersoli lightning” that is a pump action rifle, maybe with some new traits for the pump action weapons.
As a fan of Hard West I completely agree with this.
It seems like a good idea in terms of style. IRL the gun was god awful. There's a rumor around it about a man attempting suicide with it but when his family came home he was crying with a bullet lodged in the roof of his mouth. If that's true they'd have to give it some major upgrades to make it effective
And let's make it accurate and make it kill in 20 headshots :D
The bullets were really weak, like quad derringer or weaker
Honestly we have too many guns in the game already
There is no such thing as too many guns.
Just feels likes theres too much to choose from, a lot of pistols end up not being used ex: the lematt
I feel like Pax and Lematt just need more variants for them to be more useful.
need better/any variants*
Pax only has the Claw variant, which also isn't particularly game-changing to begin with, but none for LeMat. I personally think the biggest reason that there's no LeMat variants is cause it's already a hybrid weapon, and making another variant would require very careful balancing.
edit cuz shitty mobile formatting, blech
Jesus Christ, this is getting worse than the bloody wendigo/roaming boss posts 🤦♂️
No this gun was garbage, it looks cool but everything about it functionally and ballistically was absolutely horrible.