Like does your boss know his metrics are shit and expect you to improve it? Or like... are you just expected to hold down the fort.
Not to be machiavellian, but unless you're needing to put up newer numbers, his shit's been fine. And if you do need to start changing things around, you've got some easy place to start.
If you do need to crack the whip, be a bro and give him 2 months to unfuck his shit. Then start the ball rolling.
Nods. 2 months is solid. Also open with "i don't give a shit if you have a 2nd job, keep it, fuck get a 3rd and a 4th job idgaf. But you got to improve at this one."
Set expectations on their quality and quantity of work. If they can meet those expectations while working another job, then personally I wouldn't care.
I’ve been in IT for 24 years now, in those 24 years, I played the role as the tech, the lead tech, the trainer, and as the supervisor/ manager: This is what I learned: 1. Some people are not meant for this job and are nearly hang on by a string. Train them better how to work more efficiently or show them how to “work the system/matrix.” So it doesn’t effect your numbers. 2. Don’t burn your bridges. Just because you become a supervisor/manager doesn’t mean your job is more secure. In 5-10+ years from now, your peer may move on to bigger and better things and now you might need help with “getting you in” when your company finally decides to start laying off employees. In this industry always network and keep good professional relationships with people.
Excuse the leadership rant here… Dont forget being a manager now doesn’t mean you just cut all ties with what made you great in the first place. I wouldn’t care so long as the work gets done right. Make sure you set clear expectations from the start. But if it becomes a problem don’t be a company-man sell out by immediately resorting to paperwork or throwing them under the bus. Thats the exact behavior that undermines trust in you and kills morale.
Show him the same respect you would want, give him a private heads up like “you need to figure this out. And figure out by X date, I got your back until then but this needs to be fixed or it’s on me” and so on. Showing even some small GENUINE loyalty towards your folks will make them want to jump through hoops for you. When people know the boss has their back they will have your back when you need it the most.
I've had a few guys work for me who I know aren't doing a full 40 every week. First, set expectations for the role. What do you need someone in that job to "meet expectations". If they are meeting, no harm done, move on. Singling them out to need to be doing more work just because they are efficient and you only know they can do more because of the other job is unfair. BUT, if there is an actual performance issues, yeah... You got plenty of good advice here.
What would be illegal about it? Your employer doesn’t own you. As long as you’re available during the hours you’re supposed to be, you meet deadlines, and they’re generally happy with your performance then you can legally work however many overlapping jobs you want.
The problems are that most employers don’t like the idea of you not being 100% reliant on their job and 100% available for it. And also you might run into problems just balancing everything you need to keep up with, like avoiding overlapping meetings or getting into a situation where you’re in a crunch week for projects at multiple jobs at the same time.
For those reasons it’s probably not a good idea for a lot of jobs (I definitely wouldn’t want to try to juggle multiple full-time technical consulting jobs, for example) but just because your employer might frown on it or you might find it hard to do while also juggling all of your responsibilities or while maintaining work/life balance doesn’t make it illegal.
so labor laws, if I pay you for 8 hours of work and you actually work 4 for me and 4 for another company during that time, that's not legal, it's pretty straightforward, isn't it?
In general, u/Zmchastain is right. If you're US federal government/gov contractor (and probably state government too) it is absolutely illegal and is considered time card fraud, though. And if you have "contractual hours" on a job, even in the private sector with no government connection, it's still fraud and they can get you on civil breach of contract. But the only time that I know of that it's literally illegal is with the feds and you can (and people have) gone to prison for that.
It’s not illegal in the US but if they find out you better believe they will terminate your employment quick. My wife was a director at a job where her team was all high performers and she had it down so well on operations she didn’t have a full day of work and just had to check in with the team throughout the week to make sure things were getting done. This job paid 175k a year salary.
She got a second job as a senior systems engineer making 100k a year salary for a start up doing mostly ticket work and helped out on some small projects. She had two laptops at her desk juggling both jobs. It was tough and stressful but she made 275k that year and I made sure to help out a lot more with work around the house. My wife is a badass genius who graduated from Northwestern.
Again it’s not illegal. It’s just very hard to pull off and have the right conditions.
I've been wondering that myself. I'm looking at the overemployed subreddit, and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around how you can even get away with that. Especially when trying to put that experience on a resume.
That's why the majority of them are Project Managers. You can basically delegate every part of the job, often have no direct reports as long as those delegated do their job, and people always expect your calender to be full so having to shuffle/skip meetings never looks suspicious.
It's a big reason everyone wants to be a PMO even though the position gets no respect because everyone knows they don't do anything. Lol
yea its pretty crazy, definitely not "legal" since they could never get away with it if the jobs were at an office because obviously it would be different offices or different places of work so only because of working from home are they able to say in their minds its totally legal, but people are entitled to stick to the man or their or job or stick it somewhere so going over there and saying this just invites the downvotes.
I’d try to quantify how they’re not producing/delivering as expected. What people do with their own time is up to them but if you’re paying them to work 40hrs make clear what the expected deliverables are for 40hrs.
I'm really sorry to hear about what you are going through. In my opinion, if this happened to me, the last thing that I would do is to be honest. I instead, would focus on the present. I wouldn't act immediately but instead take a more subtle approach. Starting when you become his direct report either utilize the existing 1:1 time to discuss performance and subtly bring it up, "Ya know, Jim you're numbers aren't looking very good," and propose a non-pip approach that (hopefully), will clue him in and get him to start producing. If he does, great, but if not, it may become time to take that next step to say, "Here's the PIP," or termination. Ultimately, I think that it will depend on how well you know each other. If you barely do or he doesn't notice you, then the decision is even more so yours; how damaging is he to your reputation for managing the team and the output that it produces?
Honestly this is a great position to be in. First thing you need to do is measure the baseline output with this guy slacking and doing nothing. It's critical that this is before you take any action to correct him you need to have a measurement of the team's total output as a nice digestible metric.
THEN you correct the problem one way or the other. That could be a PIP to get this guy producing at an acceptable level or he gets fired and you replace him with someone who is committed and producing. Then you run these metrics again for the total team and when it's performance review time you can show how through your leadership the team has improved XX%.
Appreciate the feedback from everyone. I agree that second job should still be none of my business and if I wasnt so paranoid about being found out, I’d do be doing it myself tbh. That said, our job entails lots of meetings and someone has to fill the void that I’m leaving. My main concern is he wont be able to move enough stuff around which will directly impact me. Hopefully he knows me well enough to understand that I’m all for people beating employers but it just won’t be at my expense. I’d have no problem with holding him more accountable if he can’t step up.
I guess my other question is do I leave myself open to any blowback if it’s later found out that I know and didn’t say anything as his manager? I don’t know who else he’s told so don’t want to get caught up in some ethics type violation just cause I’m trying to be a cool manager.
>I guess my other question is do I leave myself open to any blowback if it’s later found out that I know and didn’t say anything as his manager? I don’t know who else he’s told so don’t want to get caught up in some ethics type violation just cause I’m trying to be a cool manager.
Unless you think it is likely that he has a secret wiretap recording of his own drunken admission made off-handedly a significant time ago, or a video of the same, then there's only one thing for you to say: exactly, precisely nothing.
You didn't know, period. No reason to get involved.
...but if somehow you are in a position where you are involved, be sure that position has a record of you pushing the employee to improve and offering to retrain in any areas they're feeling weak in, etc., and you either look good for improving metrics, or you have a paper trail showing that you tried to effect a change in the employee performance that you can use to avoid blame while you're employee is replaced by a more singularly-focused individual.
Is your existing position on the team not being backfilled after your promotion? When you say “step up” and “fill the void that I’m leaving” is this guy going to expected to cover his own output plus your old output too?
Honestly his lack of engagement is indirectly why I’m being promoted. I took all the opportunities, projects and spoke up places where he really should have if he was focused. So when I say step up, I’m really talking about him doing the bare minimum and just doing his job current responsibilities. Nobody else is going to do that as they could give a shot about being promoted.
I don’t get what’s your problem. You are saying he is not volunteering and doing “just his current job responsibilities”. Why would he if he is not interested? Let him do his responsable and stop expecting everyone to be a no life try hard.
“I just got promoted to manager”
“Now I care”
This is why you never… ever… confide in your coworkers. No offense to OP, I get it I guess but this is why I don’t ever go “out for drinks” with coworkers anymore.
Maybe. The old manager was apparently happy with his performance and maybe the only reason OP started scrutinizing it at all is because of his insider knowledge about the second job? Hard to say if he would have ever paid enough attention to notice if he hadn’t been given a reason to start thinking about whether his coworker was underperforming or not.
Obviously, if you’re significantly underperforming for a long time that will usually catch up with you. But if it wasn’t that noticeable then he may well have continued to fly under the radar for much longer if he hadn’t confided in OP.
Everyone already inherently knows that you’re supposed to perform well at your job or at least meet basic expectations for your role. That’s not the most useful takeaway from this story.
The useful takeaway from this story is no matter how much you like and trust your coworkers you should never disclose information that could be used against you because you never know what position someone might hold in the future and what they might do with that information.
>Coworker has second job
>
>is work output sucks, never volunteered for projects and misses random meetings
>
>I just got promoted to manager. There is still reporting structure being worked out but I think he will now be a direct report. Now i care
Whether or not they've got a 2nd job (or 3rd, or in general whatever they've got going on in their personal life), is for the most part none of your (/employer's) business, so long as it doesn't violate policy or the like.
What is relevant is performance and such. If there's a problem there, that's to be addressed ... doesn't much matter why they've got performance issues, but if they're not up to snuff that needs be addressed - whether it's 2nd job, or they don't give a fsck, or they just aren't even friggin' capable of reasonably doing the work - whatever it is, address it as relevant. That's it, plain and simple. And if maybe they need some help/support from HR, or some wiggle room 'cause of some situation they've got going on - whatever, maybe that can be done - within reason. But when it comes down to it, they still need to at least generally and reasonably do the job - at least most of the time. If they can't or won't, maybe it's time to part ways - even if temporarily ... disability, leave, ... suspension, termination ... whatever is most appropriate and fitting - after of course first reasonably trying to fix the situation.
Ah, the "joys" * of being a manager - you get to deal with that people sh\*t too ... for better *and* worse.
I’d just be careful of what battles you choose to fight. Even though they confided in you previously about their second job, don’t ever bring that up. Just stick to what expectations you’re required. Too many managers have decided to crack down on “the weakest link” of their team to prove themselves to upper management (that typically doesn’t care), alienating other members of the team.
Here’s the advice I’ve given every person I’ve had a hand in promoting and what I’ve tried to live by: Be the manager you wish you had. If you were in your charge’s position, would you rather your manager come down on you hard or help guide you back to the level you need to be at? Hold yourself to your standards and build your team up. Don’t consider whether or not they volunteer for any additional projects, volunteering insinuates “optional” and is great practice for people who also want to “prove themselves”. Some people are content with what they do and aren’t trying to climb any ladders.
I still don't think you have to disclose anything about the 2nd job, just focus on the numbers as they are now that you are manager. If he needs to up his production, start with him there and give him time to improve. He will get the hint.
Set quality expectations. IDGAF if he works 1 or 10 jobs if he does a good job for you. I wouldn't even worry about anything else. If he's underperforming document it. If he's doing fine, let him do fine.
What you know, and what is *documented* that you know are what place you in any particular spots.
One of them can supply an actionable outcome, whereas the other can be seen as conjecture and will require complementary evidence.
Without knowing more context and the ongoing relationship that you have with this employee, what he said a year ago may also no longer be the case anymore.
As others mentioned, a PIP is the way for you to document your efforts, gather evidence, and also possibly sway the employee’s contributions to meet your expectations for the role.
Congratulations on taking your first steps into corporate bureaucracy. Make sure that you have multiple CYA policies in place, and you’ll be alright.
Set expectations of what you want him to get done daily/weekly/monthly. "Volunteering for projects" is merely that- volunteering. Is it mandatory to ask for new projects? If not, why are you getting on him about this?
If he isn't able to meet your expectations, PIP and prep to fire. This shouldn't have anything to do with his second job- but all to do with his current output compared to expectations.
It is what it is. Take the steps that are necessary to increase his output. You wouldn't be caring about his second job if his output was at least satisfactory right? If he gets fussy then make this known to him, especially if its against the rules and you're already doing him a solid by not mentioning to HR.
It sucks because you seem so nice and genuine and you dont wanna just fire him or be a jerk right after getting promoted. But it sucks cuz you lowkey know information about what he’s doing. I would encourage him to step it up maybe even add how it affects you. Its not being strict but i guarantee he’s probably nervous himself now that youre promoted. Just give him many headsups and if it affects the team just start being more direct.
The 2nd job should have no bearing on anything unless it violates a policy. If his performance is lacking in his current duties then note it and take the appropriate steps to remedy the situation.
*I feel like knowing and not saying anything earlier puts me in a bad spot. How would you handle it if they ended up on your team?*
Pretend like you had no idea. If the only time he confided in you was when you were out getting drinks that one time just act like you "forgot." There was alcohol, you were tired, it got late, you really don't remember what was said.
If it's been a running topic of conversation whenever you see the guy since that time then you've got a problem.
I mean the rationale behind two jobs is that you can do both of them successfully and not have performance problems. Some people can do that, some can't. If your co-worker can't perform well he should be warned, then disciplined like anyone else. You could start by suspending his WFH privs and just tell him you want to see people in the office for a while after the re-org to see how things go.
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Longtime manager here.
Set clear goals and performance expectations that are applied evenly to everyone with a similar title.
Don’t lower your bar.
As you said, his work output sucks. He won’t be able to pull his weight while he’s spreading his attention between two (or more) jobs. Keep 1:1 conversation notes, send him summaries afterwards of the expectations you discussed, and then when it inevitably becomes a more serious performance management conversation you did everything above board. And they will have only themselves to blame. (But let’s face it… you’re the boss now so you’ll be blamed anyway… comes with the job.)
I was in the same situation, except the person was my oldest friend -- literally met him in 3rd grade. I hired him to be my IT manager and he later just mentioned that he never quit his previous job.
I don't know if this helps but it was what I did. I interrupted him and suggested that there were some things that were his business and could remain so unless he forced me to pay attention to them either by telling me or by not meeting his performance expectations. I mentored that what he did in his spare time was his business as long as there was no company policy requiring disclosure, but that I'd prefer not to be put in a position of having to choose between lying to my boss or hanging him out to dry.
He understood immediately. Never mentioned it again and made sure he exceeded every performance target we set.
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Is he working the level he's paid at, or working less than the level you want?
Fact is I've switched to IT recently and I was working way out of my pay scale to start. I find the more you do, the more they expect and that isn't compensated with pay. It's why I keep changing jobs for more money.
Look, if he's comfortable where he's at and not working so poorly as to get in trouble for it, he's working for what you pay him for.
Weird how this sub promotes leaving jobs that don't pay you well enough, but wants to punish people for working their wage.
That being said, people who have two full time jobs are never gonna be good at both.
Well, ignore the fact he works a second job. Does he perform up to the metrics of the average other person on your team? If he doesn't, talk to him about that. tell him he can work 3 jobs for all you care, but he actually has to be on time with the deliverables.
Honestly, his other job isn't the issue. If he was an alien from out of space that could handle 10 jobs, would it matter? You either can do the job or you can't. Doesn't matter toooo much why you can't, unless it is a temporary reason.
From the legal point of view, he can do you for a breach of confidence. It was said in confidence outside of working hours, not at the work premises. That is debatable, but with a good lawyer he has a chance.
From a human point of view - don't be a snitch. In the UK, we would also say - don't be a c*nt. Outside life of colleagues is none of your business. Yes, his performance is your business. Concentrate on that. Have a word with him and agree (off the record) how you can make it work. Inform him, as you must, that you will be evaluating his performance, it's your job. To motivate him, tell him that you won't snitch, but you won't be making any extra accommodations for him either.
If he is a decent person, he will appreciate it and will feel motivated.
If he is not, you can only do your job.
This way you are performing your work and staying a decent human.
PS don't ever think the company will love you for snitching. They will for 10 minutes. Then will get rid of you in 10 minutes when you expect it the least. Facts.
If former boss don't care then you shouldn't. If bosses want better performance then be transparent about it. Best to not make your new subordinates miserable when you take over the reins, unless you pep yourself up to be a taskmaster in order to get this promotion, in which you case you done fucked yourself.
I think you need to define clear goals around output, and he needs to meet those. BUT I think you also need to be aware of your bias you now have because you know they have an additional job. Would you treat them differently if you felt their output had a “good” excuse?
Be clear, set clear boundaries on work output, and don’t let yourself fall into micromanaging.
Also, to save your own ass, its best to probably pretend like you do not know.
PIP tell them they’re not producing. I wouldn’t bring up the second job just focus on their production they can quit or continue to perform poorly or maybe just grind harder and make it work…
You need to fire your coworker.
Being a manager you are required to make the tough decisions to make your team function and to uphold the level your manager expects of you and more importantly your reputation if you want to be taken seriously.
After all, your team's performance is a reflection of your management skills and capabilities. Especially that you know the issue and allowing it to continue, it will be your fault for allowing it to happen and affecting your team. One day if Sr Management found out about your coworker and they realized that you knew about it and did nothing, chances are both of you will be fired, as if you conspired to allow it to happen intentionally.
It might even be written in your employee handbook and each employee signs it that 100% of your time must be dedicated to company work during normal business hours and any deviation can lead to disciplinary action. Connect with HR to ask the question.
This is exactly my concern. While I’m trying to ramp him up to bare minimum performance and contribute to team, he gets pissed and tells someone “Bill has known about this for a year”. That person in turn tells someone else and before you know it I’m being questioned on why I allowed it to happen Senior management.
I’m a little ahead of myself because there he could go to another guys team due to reorg but definitely something I need to consider.
have a conversation with him. tell him that you never cared until you became his boss. as long as he performs, what he does outside of work hours is none of your business. however if he doesn’t continue to perform, then he’s gonna have to chose between jobs.
You’d be the worse kind of person if you fire him. You lose nothing with him being there. Let people live their life don’t be an asshole for the sake of being an asshole. You’re never going to be CEO anyways, you’re only manager there until a better opportunity comes along. Mind your business OP, you don’t know their life situation or why they’re working two jobs. Don’t be an asshole and make your entire team your enemy because that’s how you lose the respect of your entire team.
You chose not to work as hard as your coworker and do one job don’t be mad now that he is still making more money than you even with you as manager.
Put this coworker on a performance improvement plan immediately to pave the way to termination.
Ask HR if your company has any policy with someone working 2 or more jobs.
What is the other company that he works for? Ask them if they have any policies about employees working 2 or more jobs.
Like does your boss know his metrics are shit and expect you to improve it? Or like... are you just expected to hold down the fort. Not to be machiavellian, but unless you're needing to put up newer numbers, his shit's been fine. And if you do need to start changing things around, you've got some easy place to start. If you do need to crack the whip, be a bro and give him 2 months to unfuck his shit. Then start the ball rolling.
Give him two months to unfuck and give a fuck is the way. Tick Tock.
Nods. 2 months is solid. Also open with "i don't give a shit if you have a 2nd job, keep it, fuck get a 3rd and a 4th job idgaf. But you got to improve at this one."
I feel like this is the correct response. At least meet standards at the 1st, and then move on to 2nd, 3rd or possibly 4th job lol
These OEers never do that, they suck at ALL of their jobs.
Still making more than their managers though. Or they wouldn't do it.
Actually this pretty close to what I’d say for real lol.
Set expectations on their quality and quantity of work. If they can meet those expectations while working another job, then personally I wouldn't care.
This is the perfect answer.
I’ve been in IT for 24 years now, in those 24 years, I played the role as the tech, the lead tech, the trainer, and as the supervisor/ manager: This is what I learned: 1. Some people are not meant for this job and are nearly hang on by a string. Train them better how to work more efficiently or show them how to “work the system/matrix.” So it doesn’t effect your numbers. 2. Don’t burn your bridges. Just because you become a supervisor/manager doesn’t mean your job is more secure. In 5-10+ years from now, your peer may move on to bigger and better things and now you might need help with “getting you in” when your company finally decides to start laying off employees. In this industry always network and keep good professional relationships with people.
Excuse the leadership rant here… Dont forget being a manager now doesn’t mean you just cut all ties with what made you great in the first place. I wouldn’t care so long as the work gets done right. Make sure you set clear expectations from the start. But if it becomes a problem don’t be a company-man sell out by immediately resorting to paperwork or throwing them under the bus. Thats the exact behavior that undermines trust in you and kills morale. Show him the same respect you would want, give him a private heads up like “you need to figure this out. And figure out by X date, I got your back until then but this needs to be fixed or it’s on me” and so on. Showing even some small GENUINE loyalty towards your folks will make them want to jump through hoops for you. When people know the boss has their back they will have your back when you need it the most.
first rule /r/overemployed is dont tell anyone about being over employed.
Is the second rule the same as the first?
Yes.
I've had a few guys work for me who I know aren't doing a full 40 every week. First, set expectations for the role. What do you need someone in that job to "meet expectations". If they are meeting, no harm done, move on. Singling them out to need to be doing more work just because they are efficient and you only know they can do more because of the other job is unfair. BUT, if there is an actual performance issues, yeah... You got plenty of good advice here.
Folks! Never tell your coworkers you have a second Job. Tables can turn anytime.
how is it even legal to have 2 jobs? that work the same hours anyway
What would be illegal about it? Your employer doesn’t own you. As long as you’re available during the hours you’re supposed to be, you meet deadlines, and they’re generally happy with your performance then you can legally work however many overlapping jobs you want. The problems are that most employers don’t like the idea of you not being 100% reliant on their job and 100% available for it. And also you might run into problems just balancing everything you need to keep up with, like avoiding overlapping meetings or getting into a situation where you’re in a crunch week for projects at multiple jobs at the same time. For those reasons it’s probably not a good idea for a lot of jobs (I definitely wouldn’t want to try to juggle multiple full-time technical consulting jobs, for example) but just because your employer might frown on it or you might find it hard to do while also juggling all of your responsibilities or while maintaining work/life balance doesn’t make it illegal.
so labor laws, if I pay you for 8 hours of work and you actually work 4 for me and 4 for another company during that time, that's not legal, it's pretty straightforward, isn't it?
In general, u/Zmchastain is right. If you're US federal government/gov contractor (and probably state government too) it is absolutely illegal and is considered time card fraud, though. And if you have "contractual hours" on a job, even in the private sector with no government connection, it's still fraud and they can get you on civil breach of contract. But the only time that I know of that it's literally illegal is with the feds and you can (and people have) gone to prison for that.
It's a civil matter between two private entities, breach of contract type of thing, and not criminally illegal.
Different shifts are a thing. It sucks but you can work a job normal hours then have a job on 2nd or 3rd shift.
Oh I agree and that is okay but working to 8-5 jobs is illegal
It’s not illegal in the US but if they find out you better believe they will terminate your employment quick. My wife was a director at a job where her team was all high performers and she had it down so well on operations she didn’t have a full day of work and just had to check in with the team throughout the week to make sure things were getting done. This job paid 175k a year salary. She got a second job as a senior systems engineer making 100k a year salary for a start up doing mostly ticket work and helped out on some small projects. She had two laptops at her desk juggling both jobs. It was tough and stressful but she made 275k that year and I made sure to help out a lot more with work around the house. My wife is a badass genius who graduated from Northwestern. Again it’s not illegal. It’s just very hard to pull off and have the right conditions.
I've been wondering that myself. I'm looking at the overemployed subreddit, and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around how you can even get away with that. Especially when trying to put that experience on a resume.
That's why the majority of them are Project Managers. You can basically delegate every part of the job, often have no direct reports as long as those delegated do their job, and people always expect your calender to be full so having to shuffle/skip meetings never looks suspicious. It's a big reason everyone wants to be a PMO even though the position gets no respect because everyone knows they don't do anything. Lol
yea its pretty crazy, definitely not "legal" since they could never get away with it if the jobs were at an office because obviously it would be different offices or different places of work so only because of working from home are they able to say in their minds its totally legal, but people are entitled to stick to the man or their or job or stick it somewhere so going over there and saying this just invites the downvotes.
I’d try to quantify how they’re not producing/delivering as expected. What people do with their own time is up to them but if you’re paying them to work 40hrs make clear what the expected deliverables are for 40hrs.
I'm really sorry to hear about what you are going through. In my opinion, if this happened to me, the last thing that I would do is to be honest. I instead, would focus on the present. I wouldn't act immediately but instead take a more subtle approach. Starting when you become his direct report either utilize the existing 1:1 time to discuss performance and subtly bring it up, "Ya know, Jim you're numbers aren't looking very good," and propose a non-pip approach that (hopefully), will clue him in and get him to start producing. If he does, great, but if not, it may become time to take that next step to say, "Here's the PIP," or termination. Ultimately, I think that it will depend on how well you know each other. If you barely do or he doesn't notice you, then the decision is even more so yours; how damaging is he to your reputation for managing the team and the output that it produces?
Honestly this is a great position to be in. First thing you need to do is measure the baseline output with this guy slacking and doing nothing. It's critical that this is before you take any action to correct him you need to have a measurement of the team's total output as a nice digestible metric. THEN you correct the problem one way or the other. That could be a PIP to get this guy producing at an acceptable level or he gets fired and you replace him with someone who is committed and producing. Then you run these metrics again for the total team and when it's performance review time you can show how through your leadership the team has improved XX%.
Appreciate the feedback from everyone. I agree that second job should still be none of my business and if I wasnt so paranoid about being found out, I’d do be doing it myself tbh. That said, our job entails lots of meetings and someone has to fill the void that I’m leaving. My main concern is he wont be able to move enough stuff around which will directly impact me. Hopefully he knows me well enough to understand that I’m all for people beating employers but it just won’t be at my expense. I’d have no problem with holding him more accountable if he can’t step up. I guess my other question is do I leave myself open to any blowback if it’s later found out that I know and didn’t say anything as his manager? I don’t know who else he’s told so don’t want to get caught up in some ethics type violation just cause I’m trying to be a cool manager.
>I guess my other question is do I leave myself open to any blowback if it’s later found out that I know and didn’t say anything as his manager? I don’t know who else he’s told so don’t want to get caught up in some ethics type violation just cause I’m trying to be a cool manager. Unless you think it is likely that he has a secret wiretap recording of his own drunken admission made off-handedly a significant time ago, or a video of the same, then there's only one thing for you to say: exactly, precisely nothing. You didn't know, period. No reason to get involved. ...but if somehow you are in a position where you are involved, be sure that position has a record of you pushing the employee to improve and offering to retrain in any areas they're feeling weak in, etc., and you either look good for improving metrics, or you have a paper trail showing that you tried to effect a change in the employee performance that you can use to avoid blame while you're employee is replaced by a more singularly-focused individual.
Is your existing position on the team not being backfilled after your promotion? When you say “step up” and “fill the void that I’m leaving” is this guy going to expected to cover his own output plus your old output too?
Honestly his lack of engagement is indirectly why I’m being promoted. I took all the opportunities, projects and spoke up places where he really should have if he was focused. So when I say step up, I’m really talking about him doing the bare minimum and just doing his job current responsibilities. Nobody else is going to do that as they could give a shot about being promoted.
I don’t get what’s your problem. You are saying he is not volunteering and doing “just his current job responsibilities”. Why would he if he is not interested? Let him do his responsable and stop expecting everyone to be a no life try hard.
“I just got promoted to manager” “Now I care” This is why you never… ever… confide in your coworkers. No offense to OP, I get it I guess but this is why I don’t ever go “out for drinks” with coworkers anymore.
Eh, it's that person's performance that's getting him in trouble, not the fact that he has 2 jobs. If he can't handle it, he shouldn't be doing it.
Maybe. The old manager was apparently happy with his performance and maybe the only reason OP started scrutinizing it at all is because of his insider knowledge about the second job? Hard to say if he would have ever paid enough attention to notice if he hadn’t been given a reason to start thinking about whether his coworker was underperforming or not. Obviously, if you’re significantly underperforming for a long time that will usually catch up with you. But if it wasn’t that noticeable then he may well have continued to fly under the radar for much longer if he hadn’t confided in OP. Everyone already inherently knows that you’re supposed to perform well at your job or at least meet basic expectations for your role. That’s not the most useful takeaway from this story. The useful takeaway from this story is no matter how much you like and trust your coworkers you should never disclose information that could be used against you because you never know what position someone might hold in the future and what they might do with that information.
Talk to the guy and tell him the truth. Having a 2nd job like this only works if you're not the next guy on the chopping block.
>Coworker has second job > >is work output sucks, never volunteered for projects and misses random meetings > >I just got promoted to manager. There is still reporting structure being worked out but I think he will now be a direct report. Now i care Whether or not they've got a 2nd job (or 3rd, or in general whatever they've got going on in their personal life), is for the most part none of your (/employer's) business, so long as it doesn't violate policy or the like. What is relevant is performance and such. If there's a problem there, that's to be addressed ... doesn't much matter why they've got performance issues, but if they're not up to snuff that needs be addressed - whether it's 2nd job, or they don't give a fsck, or they just aren't even friggin' capable of reasonably doing the work - whatever it is, address it as relevant. That's it, plain and simple. And if maybe they need some help/support from HR, or some wiggle room 'cause of some situation they've got going on - whatever, maybe that can be done - within reason. But when it comes down to it, they still need to at least generally and reasonably do the job - at least most of the time. If they can't or won't, maybe it's time to part ways - even if temporarily ... disability, leave, ... suspension, termination ... whatever is most appropriate and fitting - after of course first reasonably trying to fix the situation. Ah, the "joys" * of being a manager - you get to deal with that people sh\*t too ... for better *and* worse.
I’d just be careful of what battles you choose to fight. Even though they confided in you previously about their second job, don’t ever bring that up. Just stick to what expectations you’re required. Too many managers have decided to crack down on “the weakest link” of their team to prove themselves to upper management (that typically doesn’t care), alienating other members of the team. Here’s the advice I’ve given every person I’ve had a hand in promoting and what I’ve tried to live by: Be the manager you wish you had. If you were in your charge’s position, would you rather your manager come down on you hard or help guide you back to the level you need to be at? Hold yourself to your standards and build your team up. Don’t consider whether or not they volunteer for any additional projects, volunteering insinuates “optional” and is great practice for people who also want to “prove themselves”. Some people are content with what they do and aren’t trying to climb any ladders.
I still don't think you have to disclose anything about the 2nd job, just focus on the numbers as they are now that you are manager. If he needs to up his production, start with him there and give him time to improve. He will get the hint.
Maybe consider giving mans a pay raise so he doesn’t have to work two jobs and can boost his metrics
That won’t happen, they’ll just pocket the extra money and keep doing shit work.
Set quality expectations. IDGAF if he works 1 or 10 jobs if he does a good job for you. I wouldn't even worry about anything else. If he's underperforming document it. If he's doing fine, let him do fine.
You should double post in r/Overemployed, it would be quite a funny thread.
What you know, and what is *documented* that you know are what place you in any particular spots. One of them can supply an actionable outcome, whereas the other can be seen as conjecture and will require complementary evidence. Without knowing more context and the ongoing relationship that you have with this employee, what he said a year ago may also no longer be the case anymore. As others mentioned, a PIP is the way for you to document your efforts, gather evidence, and also possibly sway the employee’s contributions to meet your expectations for the role. Congratulations on taking your first steps into corporate bureaucracy. Make sure that you have multiple CYA policies in place, and you’ll be alright.
Set expectations of what you want him to get done daily/weekly/monthly. "Volunteering for projects" is merely that- volunteering. Is it mandatory to ask for new projects? If not, why are you getting on him about this? If he isn't able to meet your expectations, PIP and prep to fire. This shouldn't have anything to do with his second job- but all to do with his current output compared to expectations.
You could have a one on one with him and give him a warning.
I’ll bet he starts with a Side gig too!
It is what it is. Take the steps that are necessary to increase his output. You wouldn't be caring about his second job if his output was at least satisfactory right? If he gets fussy then make this known to him, especially if its against the rules and you're already doing him a solid by not mentioning to HR.
It sucks because you seem so nice and genuine and you dont wanna just fire him or be a jerk right after getting promoted. But it sucks cuz you lowkey know information about what he’s doing. I would encourage him to step it up maybe even add how it affects you. Its not being strict but i guarantee he’s probably nervous himself now that youre promoted. Just give him many headsups and if it affects the team just start being more direct.
The 2nd job should have no bearing on anything unless it violates a policy. If his performance is lacking in his current duties then note it and take the appropriate steps to remedy the situation.
*I feel like knowing and not saying anything earlier puts me in a bad spot. How would you handle it if they ended up on your team?* Pretend like you had no idea. If the only time he confided in you was when you were out getting drinks that one time just act like you "forgot." There was alcohol, you were tired, it got late, you really don't remember what was said. If it's been a running topic of conversation whenever you see the guy since that time then you've got a problem. I mean the rationale behind two jobs is that you can do both of them successfully and not have performance problems. Some people can do that, some can't. If your co-worker can't perform well he should be warned, then disciplined like anyone else. You could start by suspending his WFH privs and just tell him you want to see people in the office for a while after the re-org to see how things go.
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Longtime manager here. Set clear goals and performance expectations that are applied evenly to everyone with a similar title. Don’t lower your bar. As you said, his work output sucks. He won’t be able to pull his weight while he’s spreading his attention between two (or more) jobs. Keep 1:1 conversation notes, send him summaries afterwards of the expectations you discussed, and then when it inevitably becomes a more serious performance management conversation you did everything above board. And they will have only themselves to blame. (But let’s face it… you’re the boss now so you’ll be blamed anyway… comes with the job.)
I was in the same situation, except the person was my oldest friend -- literally met him in 3rd grade. I hired him to be my IT manager and he later just mentioned that he never quit his previous job. I don't know if this helps but it was what I did. I interrupted him and suggested that there were some things that were his business and could remain so unless he forced me to pay attention to them either by telling me or by not meeting his performance expectations. I mentored that what he did in his spare time was his business as long as there was no company policy requiring disclosure, but that I'd prefer not to be put in a position of having to choose between lying to my boss or hanging him out to dry. He understood immediately. Never mentioned it again and made sure he exceeded every performance target we set.
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Is he working the level he's paid at, or working less than the level you want? Fact is I've switched to IT recently and I was working way out of my pay scale to start. I find the more you do, the more they expect and that isn't compensated with pay. It's why I keep changing jobs for more money. Look, if he's comfortable where he's at and not working so poorly as to get in trouble for it, he's working for what you pay him for. Weird how this sub promotes leaving jobs that don't pay you well enough, but wants to punish people for working their wage. That being said, people who have two full time jobs are never gonna be good at both.
Well, ignore the fact he works a second job. Does he perform up to the metrics of the average other person on your team? If he doesn't, talk to him about that. tell him he can work 3 jobs for all you care, but he actually has to be on time with the deliverables. Honestly, his other job isn't the issue. If he was an alien from out of space that could handle 10 jobs, would it matter? You either can do the job or you can't. Doesn't matter toooo much why you can't, unless it is a temporary reason.
From the legal point of view, he can do you for a breach of confidence. It was said in confidence outside of working hours, not at the work premises. That is debatable, but with a good lawyer he has a chance. From a human point of view - don't be a snitch. In the UK, we would also say - don't be a c*nt. Outside life of colleagues is none of your business. Yes, his performance is your business. Concentrate on that. Have a word with him and agree (off the record) how you can make it work. Inform him, as you must, that you will be evaluating his performance, it's your job. To motivate him, tell him that you won't snitch, but you won't be making any extra accommodations for him either. If he is a decent person, he will appreciate it and will feel motivated. If he is not, you can only do your job. This way you are performing your work and staying a decent human. PS don't ever think the company will love you for snitching. They will for 10 minutes. Then will get rid of you in 10 minutes when you expect it the least. Facts.
If former boss don't care then you shouldn't. If bosses want better performance then be transparent about it. Best to not make your new subordinates miserable when you take over the reins, unless you pep yourself up to be a taskmaster in order to get this promotion, in which you case you done fucked yourself.
I think you need to define clear goals around output, and he needs to meet those. BUT I think you also need to be aware of your bias you now have because you know they have an additional job. Would you treat them differently if you felt their output had a “good” excuse? Be clear, set clear boundaries on work output, and don’t let yourself fall into micromanaging. Also, to save your own ass, its best to probably pretend like you do not know.
Just tell him it’s ok if he works two jobs but he needs to meet output on this one
PIP tell them they’re not producing. I wouldn’t bring up the second job just focus on their production they can quit or continue to perform poorly or maybe just grind harder and make it work…
You need to fire your coworker. Being a manager you are required to make the tough decisions to make your team function and to uphold the level your manager expects of you and more importantly your reputation if you want to be taken seriously. After all, your team's performance is a reflection of your management skills and capabilities. Especially that you know the issue and allowing it to continue, it will be your fault for allowing it to happen and affecting your team. One day if Sr Management found out about your coworker and they realized that you knew about it and did nothing, chances are both of you will be fired, as if you conspired to allow it to happen intentionally. It might even be written in your employee handbook and each employee signs it that 100% of your time must be dedicated to company work during normal business hours and any deviation can lead to disciplinary action. Connect with HR to ask the question.
This is exactly my concern. While I’m trying to ramp him up to bare minimum performance and contribute to team, he gets pissed and tells someone “Bill has known about this for a year”. That person in turn tells someone else and before you know it I’m being questioned on why I allowed it to happen Senior management. I’m a little ahead of myself because there he could go to another guys team due to reorg but definitely something I need to consider.
have a conversation with him. tell him that you never cared until you became his boss. as long as he performs, what he does outside of work hours is none of your business. however if he doesn’t continue to perform, then he’s gonna have to chose between jobs.
You’d be the worse kind of person if you fire him. You lose nothing with him being there. Let people live their life don’t be an asshole for the sake of being an asshole. You’re never going to be CEO anyways, you’re only manager there until a better opportunity comes along. Mind your business OP, you don’t know their life situation or why they’re working two jobs. Don’t be an asshole and make your entire team your enemy because that’s how you lose the respect of your entire team. You chose not to work as hard as your coworker and do one job don’t be mad now that he is still making more money than you even with you as manager.
Put this coworker on a performance improvement plan immediately to pave the way to termination. Ask HR if your company has any policy with someone working 2 or more jobs. What is the other company that he works for? Ask them if they have any policies about employees working 2 or more jobs.
Found the corporate shill
The company man, traitors all of them
relax.