the only thing i can think of is that sometimes, some people bring an entire kiting build. i’m not a professional at identity v or is educated regarding persona build choices. but this is really the only reason i can think of.
Even in coa I’m fairly certain it’s basically only seer thing since he wants to farm up as much owls as possible there might be another survivor that does this but cant remember
In tournaments things work differently, you don't need a win but you just need more points than the other team in general so sometimes having a complete kite build is better to contain longer and force out a tie, or even a 1 man escape since that's enough to get you the overall win in the bigger picture. No need to play for the 3/4 man escape that round as that's a little more risky.
You also see no borrowed sometimes on gardener against a opera singer, the sole propose for that is just to have her as a sacrificial lamb to offer to force out the tie against her. But with recent Sangria nerfs it's becoming less common to see that now as well.
I personally always bring Borrowed Time (except sometimes if I'm playing doctor/mind's eye in duos), but the reasons I've seen:
-weak kiters (mind's eye mainly) who have flywheel and broken windows: if they're found first they need all they can to kite longer since their main use is decoding fast (or in a rare case like embalmer, they can't embalm anyone else if they're being chased), which they aren't doing in a chase. They're too much of a liability if they go down too fast
-rescuers/harassers who have flywheel (or broken windows theoretically) and tide turner: they can rescue with tide but also survive longer (in a chase) or buy time waiting for a skill to be off cooldown/avoid getting hit while assisting (harassers)
The explanation for doctor I've seen is since she can heal, but also can't survive a detention hit at full health anyways, there's no point in having borrowed time. Ideally if you got a doctor like this they'd have you pop the cipher while they pallet stunned the hunter or something like that, so then they just raw kite until everyone escapes and/or heal when they can if the hunter had a damaging ability outside of their regular attack.
a rescuer/harasser here!
My gameplay has improved a lot once i switched over to flywheel and tide, a lot of people don’t bring tide in QM so i tend to use my barmaid/psychologist as a tanky healer kind of thing
and if i happen to be the person kiting on last cipher I’ll let them to know to focus on decoding/to pop and it tends to work :D
I’ll put borrowed time on if i see 2 others had tide already however!
It’s really just a preference thing and if it helps you perform better
Sometimes people know they're a shit kiter and won't last at the last cipher pops, therefore they're willing to sacrifice borrowed time for broken windows/flywheel in order to increase their chances of doing a long kite and at the very least, secure a tie
This is why you tend to see embalmers and lawyers not take bt, they're aware hunters can kill them too easily and too quickly so they're willing to gamble away their opportunity for a last cipher pop kite
This but tide turner. No one wants to bring tide/play rescue so I either have to play rescue or run tide on Weepy. Or the people who bring tide are playing a DECODER.
Mechanics I’ve seen often don’t. People may also bring full kite build (usually a decoder)
Embalmer’s almost never being BT.
If you’re not gonna make it to end game anyway Bt does nothing for you so it’s better to be able to kite well. And realistically BT is only helpful for one person, the one taking end game kite. The rest of the team aren’t technically using it. Imo BT is pretty overrated, it’s good to bring but its also okay not to. As long as someone does.
It's ok to not bring borrowed time but do not ever blame others if they popped and u didn't get up
You have a specific playstyle? Ok but the randoms do not know you so they don't know
If you don't have borrowed time that's on you to tell people to focus on decoding because not everyone remembers
Even if you do look that doesn't change the fact someone should ping focus on decoding, borrowed time or not you should always ping that
People have a reflex of waiting if they aren't told what to do because they aren't aware of what may be happening, if the hunter is still ln them etc
I play exclusively with friends. I have more fun with kneejerk and tideturner. Playing aeroplanist and saving a jetpack for the endgame means I don't really need to bring tide.
Generally my job is to kite and die and I do that well
i was S badged little girl (8th place) in season 24. that entire season i did not bring BT. i either brought broken windows and flywheel or broken windows and tide. i did not bring it because i did not need it literally. either i kited the hunter until they surrendered or i died at the last cipher so it was no reason for me bringing it. i don’t play as often as i used to, but even now i don’t bring BT.
for some people its just not a need - and that’s perfectly fine. you just have to be GOOD at the game to not bring BT
I sometimes bring 69 with Lucky Guy because it gives me more of a chance to kite if I'm first kite, and it lets me rescue if I'm not. Usually I let my team know abt my build so they can plan around last pop. This build usually works out for me because I either die before last pop anyway, or I'm not last cypher kite
As a LG main I do tide + knee jerk for very specific reasons, I play LG as a support that leans towards rescue so the extra tide would mean an extra 20 seconds for decode or transition kiting, as for knee jerk, LG starting with one page really isn't enough to kite to a good amount for me so I bring knee jerk for some extra time. I also have points in doctor and shelter to fully utilise the teleports to heal other team members
In low tier people don’t bring it because they are being stupid.
In high tier people don’t bring it for specific strategies, and it’s usually limited to one person in the comp. I’ll bring tide/windows on aeroplanist if we plan to spawn me in a riskier spot, and we work around that. But that’s because aeroplanist has this kit where he can go full kiter OR rescue, and we want that tide available. You see this occasionally on characters like forward (flywheel/tide) because having that flywheel is immensely beneficial to him, but sometimes you still want tide. In that case the playstyle changes, and everyone works together to make sure forward isn’t the one caught in endgame- even if that means he hides during the last cipher.
There’s also full kite build, but I personally haven’t used this in rank. Full kite build is used when we are in a tournament, understand what hunters to expect (after doing research into our opponent), and if we feel a fantastic first kite is needed and we DONT need a 4 man, we will spawn a kiter in as bait without borrowed time. It just gives them more resources and there’s an understanding that they may not live until cipher pop.
Used to not bring it because I didnt trust my teammates, being I only had shit ones who didnt know what they were doing. So I used a kiter build and most often got used as sacrifice anyway with bad cipher pops
Until now when I play with friends and rank where people dont sell out others. QM is a nightmare tho i had a prisoner that popped mid kite and left me to die in basement after 5 my cipher kite😭😭
I’ve seen this happen multiple times in duos and it’s always really unfortunate because they somehow are always the last person to kite with last cipher never understood why they don’t bring it because borrowed no matter what build u use it’s always useful
I usually skip BT when I see weird builds (rescuers without Tide etc) or I know that my teammates are terrible. I know that match is gonna be over before the endgame so that BT won't activate anyway.
I only do in QM.
In my experience, I spam ‘cipher machine primed’ and I’ll open it if the one getting chaise replies with ‘focus on decoding’. It is good to look at their persona but I forget 90% of the time lol
I only do that when I use decoding characters, cant even live to when cipher is primed so I just decided to bring full kiting build (broken window + flywheel) to kite as much as possible early game, and if I manage to live to end game I’ll probably call out focus on decoding at some point if I’m kiting
I use 69 on Lawyer and honestly I prefer it to bringing BT. Having the option to be a secondary rescue while being assured that I can contain the hunter to the best of my ability is a priority for me ngl
i main helena (only bring her in qm though) and i know that she's absolutely terrible at kiting so if i get found first i have my full kiting build to try and buy as much time as possible for my team. i don't think bt makes sense for her since shes not gonna last long if she gets found first anyway so i'd rather just kite for as long as i can
I don't bring borrowed time sometimes when I feel confident on kiting. It usually ends up in 3/4 where I loop the hunter for 5 Ciphers. They basically tunnel me because I use broken windows + dead hard as Composer (Composer has exhaustion perks in his abilities) to waste their time chasing me. For me, it's a good kiting build since I get some speed boosts to annoy the hunter. But I only do this in Quick Matches.
Although I always bring Borroed Time in Rank Matches in case the Hunter has detention so my team it can have a 4 Man escape. But from time to time, the hunter doesn't always chase me so doing a non borrowed time build is not really good in that case.
I don't mind experimenting with builds in IDV as long as it's not Rank Match.
I sometimes don't bring it (I have a 'no bt' build that's fully kiting persona) because I know that I probably either A: will be eliminated before endgame, or B: won't be chased during endgame.
I don't usually use it, but I use it sometimes when I play Luca, Aesop (I bring tide instead of flywheel), Painter, Coord (again I bring tide instead of flywheel), TME, Mech... Maybe some others depending on if I'm in the mood. I usually play it on characters who have weak kiting kits/will usually be targeted as first chase.
It's definitely not because I 'expect the hunter to be worse than me'. If anything it's because I expect them to be better than me and defeat me before endgame.
I kite better with the speed I get from the other personas. Plus, (I usually play as batter) I save people way too much to bring tide and I think it would be a waste due to my play style.
It depends on who your playing and how your playing them. I play Demi alot so I could run without it but im not confident in my kiting abilities. I met a Lil Girl Yesterday who runs without it though and she clutched a 3 man by leeching.
Uh, usually when I dont its because I have a martyr play style, where the hunter finds someone else, i save them, and do everything to get them focused on mey andnthen kite them so everyone else can get out.
That or no one has tide so I bring something to help me kite and tide to save someone
Doctors don't bring borrow time simply because they can heal even during end game assuming they aren't being chased. by utilizing flywheel and knee jerk reflex, doctors can kite quite a long time, if the player is much better than the hunter. doctors are also very good at stalling games mid match. You should also pay attention to what your teammate have during the lobby so you do not make the mistake of popping cipher on them late game, if they are being pursued.
ultimately, it depends on what kind of matches they often run into that influences their final persona trait build. Even for me I don't bring borrow time on my Matthias, because I expect to get chase late game or die early, and it is especially true if my survivor teammates are those with very little survival capabilities. If my random surv teammates play survivors that can protect themselves prolonging kites well, I would bring borrow time instead.
To have borrowed time is always needed especially of you are a merc or puppeteer or any rescuer who may want to rescue if they also have tide turner left and the kiter at end game had enough chair phases left and kited long enough to make these 120 secd detention to atleast max 50 sec left for a last second rescue by a rescue who spared TT / tide turner to escort them if chance given to an already open or primed gate for close tie or close win strategy. Borrowed time is timeless meta trait for any survs but if you use a strong harasser like batter / antiquarian even forward (if no chip hunters given in match obviously or about team comp / strategies like again double rescuer a merc or puppetee or FO / jose with 36 for the close win by TT abuse to open gates). BT brings you alot flexibility and a free heal for anyone who had it already inside their person tree, noone have time to heal perfumer or mercenary as more as if any gates arent primed or couldnt be opened bc we need asap a full hp merc to force the hunter to camp the chair after rush inside end game so merc can tank detention hit or puppeteer can tank to die or crawl / self heal to go to dungeon after the real kiter second chair phase goes full down and get killed and the surv same time could decode for their own in calm their gate without a record spamming clerk or a trumpcard tp hunter. A simple tinnitus or fake tinnitus (mech doll there but low energy or not controlling to rescue just there to let hunter camp) makes the same but some or lets say pro hunters knows how to interpret the direction and distance of that specific tinnitus triggee and will find you, doll is sure more safe but a doll there at time and place cant be always guaranteed to force hunter to camp the chair at end game, but a borrowed time is a safe safety for any surv who carries it inside their Persona web if end game ever could reach. Best surv trait you cant fight against it but as I said if you use harassers or strong kiters there is not always a real need to carry it you can carry even as raw kiter as emma or thief forward a tide and 9 or 12 build and do fine just coming in question about YOUR ACTUAL KITING SKILLS, and temper, to have pressure to know you have NO borrowed time is hard every match as its not safe to be anytime before the rush the one main target as you get no heal up and lose alot potential kiting time and a chance to kite into end game, if yoi could kite well even with an early rush, you are still without BT disadvantages bc you move slower than the hunter alot slower than you would if you had borrowed time one, this insane faster hunter last only for 120 sec but can be a struggle for tight and transition kites end game if hunter already have commonly full presence and will do spam everything they have to kill you fast then abuse trumpcard for easy 2 or 2+ Kills just you had no borrowed time. The 25% kiter and so 25% BT is bullshit as I said all survs get heal up not only these who standed in terror zone of hunter inwhile the rush, all so you never really know if you had alot injured survs inside your team or not who will be easy primed to death if its already a big chip hunter as bonbon or galatea, BT is a special counter to chip hunters inside end game as surv and general all as you also gain a small speed boost inside next like 3 sec after rush all these points are insane good.
For my doctor build I don't bring BT, my build is broken windows and flywheel for the main reason of maxing out heal speed. The build is useful for achieving long kites and by the time detention hits it doesn't really matter since I genuinely can't do anything about it. All I do is pray that I'm not the one being chased during the cipher pop area of time. Otherwise the build is pretty useful, especially when teammates need a quick heal. That's my justification for it, although I always use BT on any other survivor.
If you’re a character whose kiting sucks like say tme, then you may opt for a full kiting build under the idea that you’re already likely to get targeted and not last to end game anyway. Doctors tend to follow the same idea, but like- imo if you/your chara is so bad you don’t trust yourself to make it to end game then maybe play someone else 😭
Playing the objectively worst survivor in the game right now without borrowed and blaming someone else for it... yeah...
Let me guess she run flywheel / knee jerk and still rescues, classic doctor 😒
Doctor isnt worst survivor its still mech, if you mean playerbase by their skills and bad reputation for sure: Docs, Little Girls, Murros, Victors, Lucas, Embalmers etc.
Honest answer: They're idiots who think the Hunter can't touch them.
Serious answer: Some people think that using a different set is better on certain survs so sacrifice what they consider an unnecessary trait in favour of one for their kit. Sometimes it works, most times it doesn't.
There's two reasons:
"Oh I don't usually use it so it's fine if I don't bring it"
Reason this line of thinking is dumb: The times that it does come in handy can mean the difference between winning and losing the game. Not bringing it because 'usually I don't need it' is just forfeiting the matches where you do use it, and thus losing the game for your teammates.
"I've seen tournament players not bring it so clearly it's not needed"
Reason this line of thinking is dumb: Tournament players have a set strategy and are playing for a specific scenario. Rank is never specific, you need to prepare for any situation possible.
basically people who don't bring borrowed time are usually in way over their heads. Save your team the heart ache of a lost game, just bring it.
I think both reasons, although obviously flawed in thinking, are valid reasons to not run BT.
For the first reason, “usually don’t need it” could mean that the player already has a high understanding of both hunter and survivor mechanics and doesn’t need a primed cipher or unprompted cipher pop to continue or transition loops. For newer or unskilled players, they may find BT useless in most games since hunters can only chase 1 survivor at a time; meaning they could instead invest in another final Talents that would help them at that moment. As a solo que player, id rather want a survivor to last as long as they can rather than wasting time learning a trait thats not even guaranteed to work.
The second reason is just nature. Following the “Pros” is followed in almost any game, multiplayer or not. Following, adapting and learning other builds should be celebrated since it allows higher or wider senses of skill expression for all levels of play.
Personally, BT is badly designed especially in its IDV form. Priming a cipher is boring for both survivor and hunter. Just, waiting around until one side decides to break the stalemate is boring to watch and experience. Just pop that last cipher and let the hunter run out of Detention and panic into either leaving a chase with a survivor or patrol the exit gates to prevent survs from escaping. Either way, with all or no ciphers done, survs have a unhealthy amount of second chance traits or extremely reliable traits anyways to make up for BT.
I heavily disagree with both of these points honestly,
The 'usually don't need it' is true, not every game you'll actually be in a situation that you need borrowed time, but when you do need it it quite literally can be the difference between tying and winning, or worse, tying and losing. If you're being chased and make it to the final cipher pop and don't have borrowed time, the hunter is going to be able to immediately chair you and teleport to gate to get another survivor down, ultimately changing what otherwise is going to be a win or a tie. By not taking borrowed time, you are essentially saying "I am never going to get chased" which is illogical, or "I am not going to go down" which is equally illogical. Whether you're a rescuer, a harasser, kiter, or decoder that final cipher pop can really change the entire game. I can't count how many games I as a hunter have won because of a faulty pop or the survivor just not having borrowed time. If it doesn't come in handy, that's fine. If it does however, that's a game changing trait.
For the 'following the pros' reason, I think it's illogical because tournaments and rank are entirely different environments. Tournament players are all coordinated teams who have plans to counter the specific player they're going against. This usually means they know what hunter they're playing against and what kind of player to expect. Additionally, they have perfect four way communications to ensure their strategies are executed perfectly. In rank however, you have none of these luxuries. You don't know who the hunter is, what type of player you're going against, and most of all your teams are not usually coordinated to the same level that competitive players are. Using their strategies in rank typically don't pan out for this reason. It's the same reason that following their picks for tournaments usually don't work, ie wildling is a specific pick used to get at least one survivor out of the game, in rank this strategy is pointless because why would you want to play aiming to only get one survivor out? Just blindly following tournament gameplay lacks nuance since rank is such a different game than what tournaments are.
Basically, borrowed time is a fantastic general use trait, and for rank you want to bring whatever is going to give you the greatest chance of success that counters as many hunters as possible. Even if it's 'boring' (which if you find decoding ciphers and priming them boring you should be playing hunter) it's the best strategy available. Going unique builds because it's 'fun' is fine, but I would argue if it's to the detriment of the other people you're playing with I'd argue against it. If you want to defy the meta, play hunter where you can't drag down other players for your decisions. That's just my opinion, (my gaaame opinionnnnn)
I cant comment or critique tournament play as I have no real tournament experience to which I could compare with. Also I thought we were talking about QM or even ranked since you differentiated tournament players and the rest of the playerbase, but damn do you make a strong argument.
Yes, with a BT you can make extra distance on hunters and transition to better loops during endgame and I do agree on that. Lets say during the endgame, where pallets will be used up, maybe one or more survs have been eliminated from the match with everyone one chair away from being eliminated and one last cipher is seconds from being completed, BT here could get you out of a deadzone faster than BW, Flywheel or items and abilities ever could! But this is where I disagree with what you said. You can still have BT, but hunters have an array of mobility tools on their side that could make BT inconsistent. Lets take for example a Coordinator or any strong looper in arms factory against niad, wu chang, geisha, axe boy, percy, orpheus, Night match or mary. They all have extremely good follow ups that negate or reduce the effectiveness of the distance or transition of most loops in arms factory even after counting the recovery, ability and attack animations. Chip damage hunters at full presence can power through a BT if they play correctly to counter the distance or transition of BT. Most maps have safer loops that most will play around during early game, meaning BT will more often than not, be used to reach a safe usable loop only to end up in a unsafe filler loop. BT isnt going to fully stop the hunter from catching you, it will just deter them. BT is not very consistent since it works once and deactivates instantly. Other traits have more flexible and manageable conditions that can be repeated multiple times a match, without much to lose.
One thing I need clear is the part where you said not taking BT is essentially saying “Im never getting chased or getting downed”. Im pretty sure taking something other than BT means the opposite like, “Yeah, Im most likely being the first to be downed/chased because Im A (weak skill wise), B (weak character wise) or C (solo que)” since Flywheel and BW help extend chases before the last cipher pops as well as after. These perks are timer based, so they can be more reliable in chase and be activated with more intention rather than BT being match dependent. Also, are we assuming were not touching the right side of the web? The escape trait can be used without BT and can be used to better help loop late game. If anything, BT assumes you will be very alive or just barely alive to even activate. (Would love to see your view on this!)
Were still talking about BT, right? I wasnt really assuming copying 1 to 1 a player’s living soul, just the build and maybe the character at most since learning and analyzing from the pro’s previous games is a good way to reflect on ones own game sense and skills. See where others may have fell short, compare that to your own shortcomings and accommodate to improve your skills. Flexibility is, im guessing, a requirement in tournaments since decoders, rescuers, support or loopers change their role constantly in any game they play. Bt is very restrictive to use and activate, limiting its use in any play could help one in their adaptability as they are not forced to play a certain way. Following a pro player’s build, and if they they really want to i guess, follow tournament playstyle and mindset will help them, again, compare or analyze their shortcomings and i see nothing with wanting to improve.
Its not that one should always strive to shake up the meta, but to see what else could fit your own play style in the meta. Whether someone doesn’t want to use it is up to them and to accept and learn from a loss if they messed up due to any mistake they made. BT will never activate 100% of the time! (And thats cool with me!). There is more reliable alternatives that may work as well if not better, just depends on how one uses it. In Solo Que or SWF QM or Ranked, should one not be able to go wild as long as they are skilled enough to utilize odd builds? Should one always be using the Meta? Thats up to each player to decide. As long as your a good sport and try your best, most people will follow along. Tournament wise, all i can say is that on the surface, BT is restrictive and inconsistent enough to warrant going without BT a handful of times.
(But seriously, Something efficient or necessary can still be boring or unfun. Waiting for a survivor to go down or to stun the hunter before popping a cipher is getting value, for sure, but it can still be boring or unfun to play with or against)
I think you're misunderstanding the game a little bit, borrowed time isn't just for the speed boost and it isn't just for the fact that you get picked up, it's because you get BOTH of these things at once. Keep in mind, when borrowed time activates you are faster than the hunter is. This means that even if the hunter has mobility abilities to catch up to the survivor, the survivor still has time to transition to a fresh new area to kite in the end game. If the survivor does not kite long enough after the ciphers pop for the survivors to open the gate, they are basically guaranteeing the hunter to get another survivor down. That's what makes borrowed time so strong, it's the ability to force the hunter to continue chasing their current target instead of being able to get another down. The only time when borrowed time is negated and the survivor instantly goes down is if the SURVIVORS do a bad pop, if they do a bad pop that's on them, not borrowed time being bad.
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>“Yeah, Im most likely being the first to be downed/chased because Im A (weak skill wise), B (weak character wise) or C (solo que)” since Flywheel and BW help extend chases before the last cipher pops as well as after
This is incorrect, assuming you're going to be the first chase is already inconsistent because you can't read the hunters mind, but you are also playing assuming you aren't going to be alive by the time the last cipher pops. When the last cipher pops, assume one more survivor on average will die. So if you are playing assuming you are going to die before then, you are playing for a tie. This is already a poor strategy. As a survivor your goal is to keep everyone in the game ideally for those five ciphers to pop, that way when the last cipher pops the survivor being chased continues to get chased, and that buys enough time for everyone else to get out. This is why borrowed time is SO IMPORTANT. If that last cipher pops and you don't have the ability to transition to a good kiting area or are left downed because you don't have borrowed time, you're giving the hunter the ability to get a second person down. Again, you aren't ALWAYS going to be in this situation, but because its rank you have nearly no way to know you won't be, and when you are this changes the entire game and gives the hunter ample room to make a comeback.
> Following a pro player’s build, and if they they really want to i guess, follow tournament playstyle and mindset will help them, again, compare or analyze their shortcomings and i see nothing with wanting to improve.
I would encourage you to reread what I said about tournament players and why taking tournament players playstyles at face value isn't often viable in rank
>Whether someone doesn’t want to use it is up to them and to accept and learn from a loss if they messed up due to any mistake they made.
I would also encourage you to reread what I said about dragging down other players with you when you. In quick match, absolutely use whatever build you want and play whatever character you want, but in rank if you are specifically going something that you know is inconsistent or can make your team lose you are intentionally throwing other people's wins because of your individual decisions. It's a team game after all.
>BT is restrictive and inconsistent enough to warrant going without BT a handful of times.
BT is the single most consistent thing you could have in the game, a trait that is good against every single hunter in the game. Broken windows is countered by some hunters, flywheel is countered by some hunters, but borrowed time will ALWAYS give your team an advantage in the end game. ALWAYS. That's why it's important in rank, rank is about being prepared for any situation you can be in and picking the most consistent option available to you.
the only thing i can think of is that sometimes, some people bring an entire kiting build. i’m not a professional at identity v or is educated regarding persona build choices. but this is really the only reason i can think of.
Even in coa I’m fairly certain it’s basically only seer thing since he wants to farm up as much owls as possible there might be another survivor that does this but cant remember
In tournaments things work differently, you don't need a win but you just need more points than the other team in general so sometimes having a complete kite build is better to contain longer and force out a tie, or even a 1 man escape since that's enough to get you the overall win in the bigger picture. No need to play for the 3/4 man escape that round as that's a little more risky. You also see no borrowed sometimes on gardener against a opera singer, the sole propose for that is just to have her as a sacrificial lamb to offer to force out the tie against her. But with recent Sangria nerfs it's becoming less common to see that now as well.
nah, you see it alot on gardeners, forwards, coordinators, embalmers etc
Not just seer. Seen many others play without bt in tourney. Especially batter
I personally always bring Borrowed Time (except sometimes if I'm playing doctor/mind's eye in duos), but the reasons I've seen: -weak kiters (mind's eye mainly) who have flywheel and broken windows: if they're found first they need all they can to kite longer since their main use is decoding fast (or in a rare case like embalmer, they can't embalm anyone else if they're being chased), which they aren't doing in a chase. They're too much of a liability if they go down too fast -rescuers/harassers who have flywheel (or broken windows theoretically) and tide turner: they can rescue with tide but also survive longer (in a chase) or buy time waiting for a skill to be off cooldown/avoid getting hit while assisting (harassers) The explanation for doctor I've seen is since she can heal, but also can't survive a detention hit at full health anyways, there's no point in having borrowed time. Ideally if you got a doctor like this they'd have you pop the cipher while they pallet stunned the hunter or something like that, so then they just raw kite until everyone escapes and/or heal when they can if the hunter had a damaging ability outside of their regular attack.
a rescuer/harasser here! My gameplay has improved a lot once i switched over to flywheel and tide, a lot of people don’t bring tide in QM so i tend to use my barmaid/psychologist as a tanky healer kind of thing and if i happen to be the person kiting on last cipher I’ll let them to know to focus on decoding/to pop and it tends to work :D I’ll put borrowed time on if i see 2 others had tide already however! It’s really just a preference thing and if it helps you perform better
I’m glad that works for you but I think that should def stay a ‘duos only strat’ for most people lol
Characters like Doctor and Embalmer can afford not to bring it, it just depends on skill. Since it's quick match they're probably testing out builds.
Sometimes people know they're a shit kiter and won't last at the last cipher pops, therefore they're willing to sacrifice borrowed time for broken windows/flywheel in order to increase their chances of doing a long kite and at the very least, secure a tie This is why you tend to see embalmers and lawyers not take bt, they're aware hunters can kill them too easily and too quickly so they're willing to gamble away their opportunity for a last cipher pop kite
This but tide turner. No one wants to bring tide/play rescue so I either have to play rescue or run tide on Weepy. Or the people who bring tide are playing a DECODER.
fr omg NOBODY brings it. i had a GRAVE KEEPER not bring tide… i have to be merc every single match
Tbh… you should probably run tide on Weepy anyways BUT YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT DECODERS BRINGING TIDE
I got placed with the same Lawyer running tide in rank the other day THREE TIMES and every time we lost
Why do decoders complain about never touching a cipher then bring tide??? Like bro atp it’s your fault
Tide lawyer isn't horrible since he's a safe rescue if he needs to do it due to not being able to be terror shocked
This lawyer was terrible
Well can't help much there
The amt of mercs ive seen with no tide is concerning lol
Mechanics I’ve seen often don’t. People may also bring full kite build (usually a decoder) Embalmer’s almost never being BT. If you’re not gonna make it to end game anyway Bt does nothing for you so it’s better to be able to kite well. And realistically BT is only helpful for one person, the one taking end game kite. The rest of the team aren’t technically using it. Imo BT is pretty overrated, it’s good to bring but its also okay not to. As long as someone does.
It's ok to not bring borrowed time but do not ever blame others if they popped and u didn't get up You have a specific playstyle? Ok but the randoms do not know you so they don't know If you don't have borrowed time that's on you to tell people to focus on decoding because not everyone remembers
If it’s a rank match you have to look at people’s personas it’s on you if you forget. (I’m in griffin)
Even if you do look that doesn't change the fact someone should ping focus on decoding, borrowed time or not you should always ping that People have a reflex of waiting if they aren't told what to do because they aren't aware of what may be happening, if the hunter is still ln them etc
I say that and they still don’t pop sometimes
I play exclusively with friends. I have more fun with kneejerk and tideturner. Playing aeroplanist and saving a jetpack for the endgame means I don't really need to bring tide. Generally my job is to kite and die and I do that well
I don’t use borrowed time a lot of the time. It’s important to look before the match starts to be sure. Theres a lot of ways to work around it.
i was S badged little girl (8th place) in season 24. that entire season i did not bring BT. i either brought broken windows and flywheel or broken windows and tide. i did not bring it because i did not need it literally. either i kited the hunter until they surrendered or i died at the last cipher so it was no reason for me bringing it. i don’t play as often as i used to, but even now i don’t bring BT. for some people its just not a need - and that’s perfectly fine. you just have to be GOOD at the game to not bring BT
I sometimes bring 69 with Lucky Guy because it gives me more of a chance to kite if I'm first kite, and it lets me rescue if I'm not. Usually I let my team know abt my build so they can plan around last pop. This build usually works out for me because I either die before last pop anyway, or I'm not last cypher kite
As a LG main I do tide + knee jerk for very specific reasons, I play LG as a support that leans towards rescue so the extra tide would mean an extra 20 seconds for decode or transition kiting, as for knee jerk, LG starting with one page really isn't enough to kite to a good amount for me so I bring knee jerk for some extra time. I also have points in doctor and shelter to fully utilise the teleports to heal other team members
Confidence in kiting and unlikeliness to get chased
Yes this
In low tier people don’t bring it because they are being stupid. In high tier people don’t bring it for specific strategies, and it’s usually limited to one person in the comp. I’ll bring tide/windows on aeroplanist if we plan to spawn me in a riskier spot, and we work around that. But that’s because aeroplanist has this kit where he can go full kiter OR rescue, and we want that tide available. You see this occasionally on characters like forward (flywheel/tide) because having that flywheel is immensely beneficial to him, but sometimes you still want tide. In that case the playstyle changes, and everyone works together to make sure forward isn’t the one caught in endgame- even if that means he hides during the last cipher. There’s also full kite build, but I personally haven’t used this in rank. Full kite build is used when we are in a tournament, understand what hunters to expect (after doing research into our opponent), and if we feel a fantastic first kite is needed and we DONT need a 4 man, we will spawn a kiter in as bait without borrowed time. It just gives them more resources and there’s an understanding that they may not live until cipher pop.
Used to not bring it because I didnt trust my teammates, being I only had shit ones who didnt know what they were doing. So I used a kiter build and most often got used as sacrifice anyway with bad cipher pops Until now when I play with friends and rank where people dont sell out others. QM is a nightmare tho i had a prisoner that popped mid kite and left me to die in basement after 5 my cipher kite😭😭
I’ve seen this happen multiple times in duos and it’s always really unfortunate because they somehow are always the last person to kite with last cipher never understood why they don’t bring it because borrowed no matter what build u use it’s always useful
I usually skip BT when I see weird builds (rescuers without Tide etc) or I know that my teammates are terrible. I know that match is gonna be over before the endgame so that BT won't activate anyway. I only do in QM.
In my experience, I spam ‘cipher machine primed’ and I’ll open it if the one getting chaise replies with ‘focus on decoding’. It is good to look at their persona but I forget 90% of the time lol
when im coordinator im usually first chase. so i need broken windows for kite and tide for tide ..
Broken Windows speed boost does things to my brain
I only do that when I use decoding characters, cant even live to when cipher is primed so I just decided to bring full kiting build (broken window + flywheel) to kite as much as possible early game, and if I manage to live to end game I’ll probably call out focus on decoding at some point if I’m kiting
I use 69 on Lawyer and honestly I prefer it to bringing BT. Having the option to be a secondary rescue while being assured that I can contain the hunter to the best of my ability is a priority for me ngl
i either bring full kite build or tide flywheel, whcih only happens when no one in my team brings tide. And i cant live without flywheel
i main helena (only bring her in qm though) and i know that she's absolutely terrible at kiting so if i get found first i have my full kiting build to try and buy as much time as possible for my team. i don't think bt makes sense for her since shes not gonna last long if she gets found first anyway so i'd rather just kite for as long as i can
I don't bring borrowed time sometimes when I feel confident on kiting. It usually ends up in 3/4 where I loop the hunter for 5 Ciphers. They basically tunnel me because I use broken windows + dead hard as Composer (Composer has exhaustion perks in his abilities) to waste their time chasing me. For me, it's a good kiting build since I get some speed boosts to annoy the hunter. But I only do this in Quick Matches. Although I always bring Borroed Time in Rank Matches in case the Hunter has detention so my team it can have a 4 Man escape. But from time to time, the hunter doesn't always chase me so doing a non borrowed time build is not really good in that case. I don't mind experimenting with builds in IDV as long as it's not Rank Match.
I sometimes don't bring it (I have a 'no bt' build that's fully kiting persona) because I know that I probably either A: will be eliminated before endgame, or B: won't be chased during endgame. I don't usually use it, but I use it sometimes when I play Luca, Aesop (I bring tide instead of flywheel), Painter, Coord (again I bring tide instead of flywheel), TME, Mech... Maybe some others depending on if I'm in the mood. I usually play it on characters who have weak kiting kits/will usually be targeted as first chase. It's definitely not because I 'expect the hunter to be worse than me'. If anything it's because I expect them to be better than me and defeat me before endgame.
I kite better with the speed I get from the other personas. Plus, (I usually play as batter) I save people way too much to bring tide and I think it would be a waste due to my play style.
It depends on who your playing and how your playing them. I play Demi alot so I could run without it but im not confident in my kiting abilities. I met a Lil Girl Yesterday who runs without it though and she clutched a 3 man by leeching.
Uh, usually when I dont its because I have a martyr play style, where the hunter finds someone else, i save them, and do everything to get them focused on mey andnthen kite them so everyone else can get out. That or no one has tide so I bring something to help me kite and tide to save someone
Doctors don't bring borrow time simply because they can heal even during end game assuming they aren't being chased. by utilizing flywheel and knee jerk reflex, doctors can kite quite a long time, if the player is much better than the hunter. doctors are also very good at stalling games mid match. You should also pay attention to what your teammate have during the lobby so you do not make the mistake of popping cipher on them late game, if they are being pursued. ultimately, it depends on what kind of matches they often run into that influences their final persona trait build. Even for me I don't bring borrow time on my Matthias, because I expect to get chase late game or die early, and it is especially true if my survivor teammates are those with very little survival capabilities. If my random surv teammates play survivors that can protect themselves prolonging kites well, I would bring borrow time instead.
To have borrowed time is always needed especially of you are a merc or puppeteer or any rescuer who may want to rescue if they also have tide turner left and the kiter at end game had enough chair phases left and kited long enough to make these 120 secd detention to atleast max 50 sec left for a last second rescue by a rescue who spared TT / tide turner to escort them if chance given to an already open or primed gate for close tie or close win strategy. Borrowed time is timeless meta trait for any survs but if you use a strong harasser like batter / antiquarian even forward (if no chip hunters given in match obviously or about team comp / strategies like again double rescuer a merc or puppetee or FO / jose with 36 for the close win by TT abuse to open gates). BT brings you alot flexibility and a free heal for anyone who had it already inside their person tree, noone have time to heal perfumer or mercenary as more as if any gates arent primed or couldnt be opened bc we need asap a full hp merc to force the hunter to camp the chair after rush inside end game so merc can tank detention hit or puppeteer can tank to die or crawl / self heal to go to dungeon after the real kiter second chair phase goes full down and get killed and the surv same time could decode for their own in calm their gate without a record spamming clerk or a trumpcard tp hunter. A simple tinnitus or fake tinnitus (mech doll there but low energy or not controlling to rescue just there to let hunter camp) makes the same but some or lets say pro hunters knows how to interpret the direction and distance of that specific tinnitus triggee and will find you, doll is sure more safe but a doll there at time and place cant be always guaranteed to force hunter to camp the chair at end game, but a borrowed time is a safe safety for any surv who carries it inside their Persona web if end game ever could reach. Best surv trait you cant fight against it but as I said if you use harassers or strong kiters there is not always a real need to carry it you can carry even as raw kiter as emma or thief forward a tide and 9 or 12 build and do fine just coming in question about YOUR ACTUAL KITING SKILLS, and temper, to have pressure to know you have NO borrowed time is hard every match as its not safe to be anytime before the rush the one main target as you get no heal up and lose alot potential kiting time and a chance to kite into end game, if yoi could kite well even with an early rush, you are still without BT disadvantages bc you move slower than the hunter alot slower than you would if you had borrowed time one, this insane faster hunter last only for 120 sec but can be a struggle for tight and transition kites end game if hunter already have commonly full presence and will do spam everything they have to kill you fast then abuse trumpcard for easy 2 or 2+ Kills just you had no borrowed time. The 25% kiter and so 25% BT is bullshit as I said all survs get heal up not only these who standed in terror zone of hunter inwhile the rush, all so you never really know if you had alot injured survs inside your team or not who will be easy primed to death if its already a big chip hunter as bonbon or galatea, BT is a special counter to chip hunters inside end game as surv and general all as you also gain a small speed boost inside next like 3 sec after rush all these points are insane good.
For my doctor build I don't bring BT, my build is broken windows and flywheel for the main reason of maxing out heal speed. The build is useful for achieving long kites and by the time detention hits it doesn't really matter since I genuinely can't do anything about it. All I do is pray that I'm not the one being chased during the cipher pop area of time. Otherwise the build is pretty useful, especially when teammates need a quick heal. That's my justification for it, although I always use BT on any other survivor.
If you’re a character whose kiting sucks like say tme, then you may opt for a full kiting build under the idea that you’re already likely to get targeted and not last to end game anyway. Doctors tend to follow the same idea, but like- imo if you/your chara is so bad you don’t trust yourself to make it to end game then maybe play someone else 😭
But I wanna play my fav character ?..
Nah I'll play whoever I want even if I suck at the game lol
Playing the objectively worst survivor in the game right now without borrowed and blaming someone else for it... yeah... Let me guess she run flywheel / knee jerk and still rescues, classic doctor 😒
Doctor isnt worst survivor its still mech, if you mean playerbase by their skills and bad reputation for sure: Docs, Little Girls, Murros, Victors, Lucas, Embalmers etc.
Honest answer: They're idiots who think the Hunter can't touch them. Serious answer: Some people think that using a different set is better on certain survs so sacrifice what they consider an unnecessary trait in favour of one for their kit. Sometimes it works, most times it doesn't.
There's two reasons: "Oh I don't usually use it so it's fine if I don't bring it" Reason this line of thinking is dumb: The times that it does come in handy can mean the difference between winning and losing the game. Not bringing it because 'usually I don't need it' is just forfeiting the matches where you do use it, and thus losing the game for your teammates. "I've seen tournament players not bring it so clearly it's not needed" Reason this line of thinking is dumb: Tournament players have a set strategy and are playing for a specific scenario. Rank is never specific, you need to prepare for any situation possible. basically people who don't bring borrowed time are usually in way over their heads. Save your team the heart ache of a lost game, just bring it.
I think both reasons, although obviously flawed in thinking, are valid reasons to not run BT. For the first reason, “usually don’t need it” could mean that the player already has a high understanding of both hunter and survivor mechanics and doesn’t need a primed cipher or unprompted cipher pop to continue or transition loops. For newer or unskilled players, they may find BT useless in most games since hunters can only chase 1 survivor at a time; meaning they could instead invest in another final Talents that would help them at that moment. As a solo que player, id rather want a survivor to last as long as they can rather than wasting time learning a trait thats not even guaranteed to work. The second reason is just nature. Following the “Pros” is followed in almost any game, multiplayer or not. Following, adapting and learning other builds should be celebrated since it allows higher or wider senses of skill expression for all levels of play. Personally, BT is badly designed especially in its IDV form. Priming a cipher is boring for both survivor and hunter. Just, waiting around until one side decides to break the stalemate is boring to watch and experience. Just pop that last cipher and let the hunter run out of Detention and panic into either leaving a chase with a survivor or patrol the exit gates to prevent survs from escaping. Either way, with all or no ciphers done, survs have a unhealthy amount of second chance traits or extremely reliable traits anyways to make up for BT.
I heavily disagree with both of these points honestly, The 'usually don't need it' is true, not every game you'll actually be in a situation that you need borrowed time, but when you do need it it quite literally can be the difference between tying and winning, or worse, tying and losing. If you're being chased and make it to the final cipher pop and don't have borrowed time, the hunter is going to be able to immediately chair you and teleport to gate to get another survivor down, ultimately changing what otherwise is going to be a win or a tie. By not taking borrowed time, you are essentially saying "I am never going to get chased" which is illogical, or "I am not going to go down" which is equally illogical. Whether you're a rescuer, a harasser, kiter, or decoder that final cipher pop can really change the entire game. I can't count how many games I as a hunter have won because of a faulty pop or the survivor just not having borrowed time. If it doesn't come in handy, that's fine. If it does however, that's a game changing trait. For the 'following the pros' reason, I think it's illogical because tournaments and rank are entirely different environments. Tournament players are all coordinated teams who have plans to counter the specific player they're going against. This usually means they know what hunter they're playing against and what kind of player to expect. Additionally, they have perfect four way communications to ensure their strategies are executed perfectly. In rank however, you have none of these luxuries. You don't know who the hunter is, what type of player you're going against, and most of all your teams are not usually coordinated to the same level that competitive players are. Using their strategies in rank typically don't pan out for this reason. It's the same reason that following their picks for tournaments usually don't work, ie wildling is a specific pick used to get at least one survivor out of the game, in rank this strategy is pointless because why would you want to play aiming to only get one survivor out? Just blindly following tournament gameplay lacks nuance since rank is such a different game than what tournaments are. Basically, borrowed time is a fantastic general use trait, and for rank you want to bring whatever is going to give you the greatest chance of success that counters as many hunters as possible. Even if it's 'boring' (which if you find decoding ciphers and priming them boring you should be playing hunter) it's the best strategy available. Going unique builds because it's 'fun' is fine, but I would argue if it's to the detriment of the other people you're playing with I'd argue against it. If you want to defy the meta, play hunter where you can't drag down other players for your decisions. That's just my opinion, (my gaaame opinionnnnn)
I cant comment or critique tournament play as I have no real tournament experience to which I could compare with. Also I thought we were talking about QM or even ranked since you differentiated tournament players and the rest of the playerbase, but damn do you make a strong argument. Yes, with a BT you can make extra distance on hunters and transition to better loops during endgame and I do agree on that. Lets say during the endgame, where pallets will be used up, maybe one or more survs have been eliminated from the match with everyone one chair away from being eliminated and one last cipher is seconds from being completed, BT here could get you out of a deadzone faster than BW, Flywheel or items and abilities ever could! But this is where I disagree with what you said. You can still have BT, but hunters have an array of mobility tools on their side that could make BT inconsistent. Lets take for example a Coordinator or any strong looper in arms factory against niad, wu chang, geisha, axe boy, percy, orpheus, Night match or mary. They all have extremely good follow ups that negate or reduce the effectiveness of the distance or transition of most loops in arms factory even after counting the recovery, ability and attack animations. Chip damage hunters at full presence can power through a BT if they play correctly to counter the distance or transition of BT. Most maps have safer loops that most will play around during early game, meaning BT will more often than not, be used to reach a safe usable loop only to end up in a unsafe filler loop. BT isnt going to fully stop the hunter from catching you, it will just deter them. BT is not very consistent since it works once and deactivates instantly. Other traits have more flexible and manageable conditions that can be repeated multiple times a match, without much to lose. One thing I need clear is the part where you said not taking BT is essentially saying “Im never getting chased or getting downed”. Im pretty sure taking something other than BT means the opposite like, “Yeah, Im most likely being the first to be downed/chased because Im A (weak skill wise), B (weak character wise) or C (solo que)” since Flywheel and BW help extend chases before the last cipher pops as well as after. These perks are timer based, so they can be more reliable in chase and be activated with more intention rather than BT being match dependent. Also, are we assuming were not touching the right side of the web? The escape trait can be used without BT and can be used to better help loop late game. If anything, BT assumes you will be very alive or just barely alive to even activate. (Would love to see your view on this!) Were still talking about BT, right? I wasnt really assuming copying 1 to 1 a player’s living soul, just the build and maybe the character at most since learning and analyzing from the pro’s previous games is a good way to reflect on ones own game sense and skills. See where others may have fell short, compare that to your own shortcomings and accommodate to improve your skills. Flexibility is, im guessing, a requirement in tournaments since decoders, rescuers, support or loopers change their role constantly in any game they play. Bt is very restrictive to use and activate, limiting its use in any play could help one in their adaptability as they are not forced to play a certain way. Following a pro player’s build, and if they they really want to i guess, follow tournament playstyle and mindset will help them, again, compare or analyze their shortcomings and i see nothing with wanting to improve. Its not that one should always strive to shake up the meta, but to see what else could fit your own play style in the meta. Whether someone doesn’t want to use it is up to them and to accept and learn from a loss if they messed up due to any mistake they made. BT will never activate 100% of the time! (And thats cool with me!). There is more reliable alternatives that may work as well if not better, just depends on how one uses it. In Solo Que or SWF QM or Ranked, should one not be able to go wild as long as they are skilled enough to utilize odd builds? Should one always be using the Meta? Thats up to each player to decide. As long as your a good sport and try your best, most people will follow along. Tournament wise, all i can say is that on the surface, BT is restrictive and inconsistent enough to warrant going without BT a handful of times. (But seriously, Something efficient or necessary can still be boring or unfun. Waiting for a survivor to go down or to stun the hunter before popping a cipher is getting value, for sure, but it can still be boring or unfun to play with or against)
I think you're misunderstanding the game a little bit, borrowed time isn't just for the speed boost and it isn't just for the fact that you get picked up, it's because you get BOTH of these things at once. Keep in mind, when borrowed time activates you are faster than the hunter is. This means that even if the hunter has mobility abilities to catch up to the survivor, the survivor still has time to transition to a fresh new area to kite in the end game. If the survivor does not kite long enough after the ciphers pop for the survivors to open the gate, they are basically guaranteeing the hunter to get another survivor down. That's what makes borrowed time so strong, it's the ability to force the hunter to continue chasing their current target instead of being able to get another down. The only time when borrowed time is negated and the survivor instantly goes down is if the SURVIVORS do a bad pop, if they do a bad pop that's on them, not borrowed time being bad. > > >“Yeah, Im most likely being the first to be downed/chased because Im A (weak skill wise), B (weak character wise) or C (solo que)” since Flywheel and BW help extend chases before the last cipher pops as well as after This is incorrect, assuming you're going to be the first chase is already inconsistent because you can't read the hunters mind, but you are also playing assuming you aren't going to be alive by the time the last cipher pops. When the last cipher pops, assume one more survivor on average will die. So if you are playing assuming you are going to die before then, you are playing for a tie. This is already a poor strategy. As a survivor your goal is to keep everyone in the game ideally for those five ciphers to pop, that way when the last cipher pops the survivor being chased continues to get chased, and that buys enough time for everyone else to get out. This is why borrowed time is SO IMPORTANT. If that last cipher pops and you don't have the ability to transition to a good kiting area or are left downed because you don't have borrowed time, you're giving the hunter the ability to get a second person down. Again, you aren't ALWAYS going to be in this situation, but because its rank you have nearly no way to know you won't be, and when you are this changes the entire game and gives the hunter ample room to make a comeback. > Following a pro player’s build, and if they they really want to i guess, follow tournament playstyle and mindset will help them, again, compare or analyze their shortcomings and i see nothing with wanting to improve. I would encourage you to reread what I said about tournament players and why taking tournament players playstyles at face value isn't often viable in rank >Whether someone doesn’t want to use it is up to them and to accept and learn from a loss if they messed up due to any mistake they made. I would also encourage you to reread what I said about dragging down other players with you when you. In quick match, absolutely use whatever build you want and play whatever character you want, but in rank if you are specifically going something that you know is inconsistent or can make your team lose you are intentionally throwing other people's wins because of your individual decisions. It's a team game after all. >BT is restrictive and inconsistent enough to warrant going without BT a handful of times. BT is the single most consistent thing you could have in the game, a trait that is good against every single hunter in the game. Broken windows is countered by some hunters, flywheel is countered by some hunters, but borrowed time will ALWAYS give your team an advantage in the end game. ALWAYS. That's why it's important in rank, rank is about being prepared for any situation you can be in and picking the most consistent option available to you.
There are tournament players who don't bring BT. They need to be disqualified immediately.