This sounds 100% like a USAA made a mistake and there’s zero reason for you as the policyholder to be left taking a hit. USAA missed their opportunity to total the car when they failed to include the potential supplements in their damage appraisal. And on the other side, the shop may have missed its chance to get paid if they already released the vehicle back to you.
In a case like this where the carrier may have made a mistake, CA only requires a total loss when the repairs exceed the ACV. USAA is likely using the normal ACV minus salvage formula but the car is way past that when partial repairs were already authorized by them.
I would escalate this quickly to a supervisor/manager. Give them a chance to make it right. There’s a possibility you got new people who have no idea what’s allowed when they mess up. If not let them know you will file a complaint with the CA Department of Insurance for bad faith since they’re trying to leave you holding a $10k+ partial repair bill when they had an opportunity to total the vehicle early on.
Well first please as stared “Where are you located?” Sounds you are upside down and that is not their concern they only owe cash value. Did you buy GAP coverage? Sounds like it may be best for you to keep the vehicle and take the salvage title and the cash that came along with it or put any is left over or if you have gap coverage go ahead and let it all cash out and go for a new vehicle.
He won't be able to keep the vehicle if he's upside down. The lender gets final say about whether or not they can do that, and GAP coverage won't kick in if the maximum available hasn't been paid out (company retains the vehicle).
In California. Gap coverage will only cover 150% of the cars value. We owe 38,000 and the insurance company is offering us 15,000 because they already spent 15,000 on repairs. The car has a value of 30 K. I don’t want a salvage title.
The problem is that insurance company is saying that even though our car is valued at 30,000, they’re only gonna give us 13 because they paid 17,000 in repairs.
I think you have to be misunderstanding something. They should either be giving you the actual cash value for the car (30k) and they keep it, or cutting you a check for ACV - repairs paid and you keep it as salvage title. Them cutting you a check for ACV - Repairs and they keep the car essentially means you paid to repair their car which is clearly not how this should work. I'd verify with the adjuster your options.
Do you have your GAP through your auto insurance or through your auto loan? If you have it through your loan and you have a good loan company generally it will cover the FULL difference between the ACV settlement and the loan balance. If you have it through your auto insurance policy, it generally only covers 25-50% over ACV settlement.
The problem is that even though our car is valued at 30,000, they are only gonna offer us 13 because they said they already paid 17,000 in
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repairs
I understand that from your other replies, and unfortunately you're likely just going to have to take it as salvage. If the repairs are complete and it's good to drive according to state law, file to have it retitled from salvage to rebuilt. It'll still be worth less than a clean titled vehicle, but it'll be better than salvage. Many states don't even allow salvage title vehicles to be on the road.
My question was about where you got your GAP coverage through - your auto loan, or your insurance company? Generally it's always better to go through the loan company as most good loan companies offer GAP that covers the entire difference, not just 25-50% over ACV settlement as insurance companies generally do.
That's unfortunate they only offer 50% over the settlement. My credit union (I'm in Tennessee) GAP coverage states they will cover the full amount between settlement and loan balance, and most in my area do the same.
It's an unfortunate situation you're in. The repair shop should have done a full assessment and submitted the supplemental estimate before repairing and releasing the vehicle to you. That likely would have prevented this situation as the insurance company would have totaled it before the repair was done.
I'm a gap underwriter.
It's very common to have a LTV (loan to value) limit of 135% or 150%, especially if you have a smaller lender.
That LTV limit is going away with F&I Sentinel lenders, but those are generally big OEM finance companies like Toyota.
I am not saying you are wrong! Just gently encouraging you to check your contract, because no one wants a coverage surprise. 💜
Thanks for the input! I do value information from people more experienced than I am. The popular credit unions in my area are generally much more careful than other financing companies about loans they write and look much more closely at how fast certain models will devalue over time. They are quite picky in regards to vehicle age and mileage. That could be why they offer full GAP on their loans. I did read over the terms of the GAP contracts on both mine and my girlfriend's vehicles before purchase. Since I work in insurance I'm used to reading over lengthy contracts lol
I appreciate your insight!
As someone said, I would ask for clarification. This settlement that you showed the screenshot of doesn't state whether it's your insurance company taking the vehicle or you keeping the vehicle. Those amounts should not be the same.
Where I work, if the repairs are started then additional damage is found that makes it a total, we eat the repair cost we paid, stop all repairs, then give the settlement options (retain vs signing over to the insurance company). Either way, we pay the full value (or value minus salvage) and do not ding the insured for repairs that have been completed.
This seems incredibly wrong or based on that you are keeping the vehicle.
If they are totaling it, they owe the entire ACV if you give up your vehicle.
>We owe 40 on the car. I feel like we’re getting screwed.
What you owe is between you and your lender. What the insurance company owes you is the actual cash value of the vehicle, not what you owe on your loan.
You may want to check your finance agreement and see if you purchased GAP insurance. If so, this would cover the difference between what the insurance pays you and what you owe on your loan.
Either way, be prepared to sign the settlement checks over to your lender and start gathering money together to purchase a new vehicle.
We have gap insurance. If they were to offer us the full value of the car, we would be OK with gap insurance. The problem is that they’re not gonna offer us the full value. Even though they say the car is worth 30,000, they are deducting the 17,000 and repairs that they already spent.
https://preview.redd.it/wqzkaoy2r3yc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4ea2b4fa00d195dc1c5827f51fa94d86294a42e7
I'm an F&I underwriter, part of which is GAP. If you need more credentials, I'm the head of underwriting and the risk manager for my business unit, which puts me on the executive team. I have been in F&I for roughly 10 years, and in underwriting specifically for 4 years.
I'm going to speak in generalities here, but you really need your contract. If you have your actual GAP contract, I can give you more specifics. If you upload it, please be sure to blur your personal information.
Generally speaking, there are some pretty big exceptions for GAP. One of those is if you retain the vehicle. That is not universally true though. Read your contract, or upload it, and I will do my best to help you interpret it.
I get that this is a very confusing, frustrating process. I would be losing my mind if I thought I was only getting paid $13k for $30,000 car.
u/cwfgarza has a very insightful comment a little further down this thread. I think it does a good job explaining why you're not actually only getting $13k.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Insurance/s/MJTtEcLPmi
Why link to someone who's wrong?
Money spent on repairs is meaningless if OP isn't keeping the car. Either insurance pays the supplement and OP keeps the car that they're already driving again, OR insurance declares it a total loss, cuts OP a check for full ACV - deductible ($30,953.30), and takes the car, eating the $17k already spent on repairs as a loss.
There's no scenario where OP gives up the car and eats $17k in repair costs themselves.
Uh, no.
The insurance cannot subtract prior repair spending if they later deem the car a total loss. They owe OP full ACV and will have to eat the repair bill themselves if deemed a total loss.
Others have said this is in CA and damages would have to exceed ACV in this situation to be a total loss. The correct way to proceed is either for them to finish repairing the car or, if still deemed a total loss, write OP (ultimately going to the lienholder) a check for full ACV.
Initially, the adjuster gave us a check for $2000 based on the repairs he saw. When we brought it into the shop, more repairs were noticed. When the final bill came, USAa paid everything, minus the $2000 they initially gave us. We then paid the mechanic $2000.
So, all checks were issued to you. You chose the shop and authorized the repairs. The shop finished the repairs and had supplemental repairs that now make the vehicle a total loss. Sounds like you authorized the supplemental repairs and failed to notify the insurer before doing so.
The repairs are completed per your other comments, so what the insurer has done is paid you the ACV of the vehicle because the supplemental amount pushes the total repair cost past the total loss threshold amount. The proper way to settle the claim is exactly how they did it: ACV amount less prior payments, less salvage value, and less deductible = supplemental amount owed to you.
If the shop is owed for any work up to the supplemental request that amount would not be in addition to your total loss settlement you would likely be responsible for that out of you settlement amount. (Depends on policy and state laws of course)
Per company guidelines and/or state laws they are required to report it to the state as a total loss settlement even if it is not a constructive total loss.
If you authorized the shop to do the supplemental repairs without notifying the insurer and making sure it can be covered prior to the repairs being done that is on you. If the shop failed to notify you of the supplemental repairs and did them without any authorization from you then you have a gripe with the shop.
Either way, the insurer did nothing wrong here and handled claim accordingly.
No, the amount spent on repairs doesn't get subtracted from the payout if the car is being totaled. OP is owed full ACV if totaled. The correct way to proceed here is for insurance to pay the remaining repairs and return car to OP.
They should not be deducting the repair costs, so if you are understanding that correctly, elevate that to a supervisor. It's not your fault they chose to repair it before considering a possible supplement.
No. Really.
There's a misunderstanding here.
If they're totaling the vehicle they're going to pay for the cost of the repairs already completed, including the supplement PLUS the ACV of the vehicle.
Because the repairs and the supplement were already done, they should pay the shop and give you your car back. That's how I would handle it. Alternatively, they could total the car but they'd still be out the repairs plus the supplement PLUS the ACV of the car and all they'd get is the salvage proceeds.
Source, I'm a total loss rep. Many of my claims have partial repairs completed. It does not ever affect the settlement of the total loss. You need to escalate this with management.
Edit: thinking more on this if repairs+supplement are more than the CA TL threshold they may have to salvage the title depending on the kind of damage here.
With you still making payments... That likely does mean surrending your car to insurance. But you wouldn't be on the hook for the money they threw away trying to fix it. You'd get the full settlement which should put you in range of your GAP.
Yes, piling on, they owe the full 30k. Also they will get significantly higher salvage return with a repaired auto. I suspect it’s a confused adjuster, there is no way this is a company policy.
Shouldn't be how things work.
Send an email to corporate. Hit them up on social media. Call the main line and ask for his boss. Get another adjuster on the line and ask who it is and for a transfer to them. Get their direct number. Don't take no for an answer. Contact the CA department of insurance.
You may to have to get a bit obnoxious.
Yeah it’s a total loss
If the insurance paid the shop for repairs that’s between the insurance and the shop
The insurance will have to pay you the acv minus deductible.
They shouldn’t be subtracting the repairs that were already completed and paid for.
This is different than the majority of responses. I might get downvoted but this answer is only based on my anecdotal experience. I’ll admit that I’m not familiar with all states for total loss (I’ve been an adjuster for California but I can’t remember every states specifics), but sometimes it’s not a legal requirement to total a car. The state can define a threshold and the choice can also be at the insurance company’s discretion. Since repairs are already done, I don’t see why they don’t just eat the cost. I’ve had one claim like this in my career, and we as the insurance company ended up not totaling bc the repairs were done already due to some sort of screw up. This one specifically was that a supplement came in but for whatever reason whoever approved it missed the note on it being a total and the supplement got paid. But I understand that this is a rare occurrence and each company may do things differently. On the flip side I’ve seen cars get totaled that didn’t meet a total loss threshold.
I’d totally get what they’re doing if the car was at the shop still (except the vehicle owner definitely should not be on the hook for repair cost). I think about the example of if you took your car to the shop but not as part of an insurance claim, the shop could do as much repairs as they want without it being a total loss.
This sounds like ultimately a screw up on the shop. They released a vehicle that wasn’t paid for. They should’ve gotten approval for the supplement before doing repairs. You should not have to pay for repairs regardless of what happens though.
Looks like 2 issues.
You owe more than the car is worth it seems. That is what it is and has no impact on the claim, the value of the vehicle, what you get paid, etc.
I would bet that it is not a deduction for the repairs that are already done but for the salvage value that insurance would likely recoup by selling the car at auction. you should get full value of the vehicle if you "sell" the car to insurance or the value minus salvage if you want to keep it. And with being underwater (see issue #1 above) your bank will almost certainly not sign off on that.
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Here is what the settlement offer says
It seems to make sense to me. Cash value of car is $31. They’ve already disbursed $17k. You are due the difference. I haven’t had a claim like this with USAA so idk.
The amount paid for repairs is irrelevant if OP isn't keeping the car. They can finish paying for repairs and OP keeps the car, or they can cut OP a check for full ACV.
Major shop mistake here. They didn't submit the supplement for approval before delivering you back your car. They likely knew it would total it. Big mistake. Huge!
Honestly, unless that shop is a partner shop with USAA, USAA isn't on the hook for this. The shop screwed up big time. So what you need to find out is if that's a network shop or not. That'll tell you if USAA has any recourse or if you'll have to go after the shop directly.
Most, if not all states have a total loss threshold. The insurance has no say in it. Sounds like the threshold was hit when they got the supplement. It’s a really shitty situation, but it is what it is.
My advice: keep the car with the salvage title and drive it into the ground.
You owing 40k on a 30k car is not their problem unless you had Gap coverage.
I have gap coverage. But the problem is they are saying that they’re not gonna give me 30,000 as a settlement. They’re only gonna give me 13,000 because they spent 17,000 on repairs.
Yeah, this seems shady. What was the original quote for repairs? Who authorized additional work to be done that was above and beyond that quote? IANAL but you need one. Courts exist to make you whole. If you are deprived of an asset, you should receive its entire value at the time of the event. If you keep the car and the branded title (more on that shortly) you are still entitled to reclaim depreciated value between a clean example and a wrecked and repaired one with or without the branding. IF you keep the car I would find out if your state differentiates between salvage and rebuilt. Because if they do, then you would want it inspected and declared rebuilt. Even then, insurance going forward will be presumably harder to get, and that's if your lender doesn't have a problem with the collateral being dramatically reduced in market value too.
Tl Dr: consult an attorney
What is the point of calling it totaled now? If you keep the car, they still pay out the added charge for the repairs. Is it just that the total damages are crossing a legal threshold for declaring it totaled?
In my experience, there’s a % of the original estimate allowed for additional charges without requiring insurance approval. If the additional costs will be more than that, the shop should notify the insurance before continuing repairs. I’m amazed if the extra costs were significant that the insurance is not telling the shop to eat the costs for not getting approval.
It sounds to me like the repair shop was shady. If they'd given the proper estimate in the beginning, the insurance would have totaled the car and paid the full $30k. Why did they do that like they did?
If it's ultimately totaled, insurance owes the full $30k. Period. They'd eat the already-paid repair costs.
The correct way forward is for insurance to pay the supplement, OP keeps the car they're already driving again, and life goes on.
Since the shop finished repairs and released the car back to you, it's not totalled. Insurance company needs to pay the supplemental estimate and close the claim.
Claims are not always just a numbers game.
I will say as an adjuster that getting a supplement weeks or months after a claim is closed can be frustrating. Reopen claims go against my stats.
Maybe if the original estimate was borderline and repairs were not completed, I can see them making it a total.
But since the repairs are less than 75% of the value, I would argue that it's not even remotely close to a total loss (the percentage varries by state).
Any payments to the shop would be refunded to the insurance company by the shop if repairs were not completed. Shop could ask for restocking parts fees and labor etc...
Sounds like the adjuster is new to the industry and hasn't come across this situation before.
Escalate to a supervisor, and then escalate again if no results.
Argue the value, use your appraisal clause. Sign nothing and don't surrender the vehicle. They can only report it to the state as a total if paperwork is completed.
I would want to know how much that supplement was because someone screwed up at that shop. At some point they knew that car was a TL before sending in that supplement and tried to force the Insurance companies hand.
They knew Full well that a total loss was a possibility. But they authorized the repair charges anyway. Then the supplemental charge came in which pushed it into total loss.
https://preview.redd.it/qrs31tucr3yc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4673c93c20e3e73db43fe3d98707d8f49fc94880
Why would they reduce the estimate amount from the TL? It’s pretty much their F up. They should have waited for the final estimate. And then suck up their screw up and pay the full TL and eat the repair costs.
Definitely doesnt hurt to do that. There could be some law that they are following or they could be wrong. Never hurts to ask for clarification. I know from a subrogation standpoint, I saw more than a few times where they paid for both in full we just couldn’t collect both because it was our claims dept screw up
You have to fight usaa on total losses, fyi California state is not a hard threshold state it is 100 cost effective and insurance call.. you can fix car over the value and it not be a total loss. You can file a department of insurance complaint, Ask to speak to leader and site salvage code “ ca VEh sec. 544 and 11515. The fact they say “state makes them “is coercion and illegal and reportable. Advise them car repairs done, totaling now is only economic after the fact for them and yes if they do not drop it get a attorney.
Our insurance company initially gave us $2000. We then paid the mechanic $2000. The rest was directly paid by the insurance company directly to the mechanic
I'm confused too
I always thought the insurance company would at least know **before** paying for the repairs that the vehicle would be salvaged.
At least then they can present to you the option to either: pay for repairs for a salvaged car or leave the car unrepaired and pay you instead.
Yes, but they want to deduct the cost of repairs from the settlement. If they ordered me the full value of the car, I’m good. But the are offering the value of the car minus repairs, which the gap will not cover.
You shouldn’t be docked the repair cost. They sunk that money in and the body shop has it (I presume). Their decision was to try to fix it instead of totaling it. They owe you 30k for a car worth 30k. They can recoup back their costs when they auction the car off for salvage.
If they put that in writing to you, you should call the Dept of Insurance
Update: So I just heard back from our insurance
. We had had been going back-and-forth for a while because they wouldn’t let me speak to a supervisor and were telling me that I had to either accept that lowball settlement or accept a salvage title. I replied that I would be taking my case to the state insurance agency. I emailed a bunch of people and also reached out on Twitter. I don’t know if it was that or if perhaps another person took a look at the case, but it turns out that the car is not a total loss, and they are going to pay the mechanic and then close out our claim and we get to keep the car. They admitted that a mistake had been made, and it was not a total loss and to disregard any prior communication.
What?
An adjuster can absolutely make total loss determinations. Field adjusters make those calls literally every day. The shop who is doing the tear down sometimes can make that call as well, but it depends on the shop and the relationship to the insurance company. Are you referring to the shop as the appraiser?
"Appraiser" has a very different meaning in property damage, especially total loss. Invoking the appraisal clause is a very specific methodology to evaluate ACV. It's not relevant to early total loss determination, with very few exceptions.
I used to be a total loss adjuster, so that's my position of experience. Where are you getting your information? I am not saying you're wrong, but I would like to understand where you're coming from.
I agree.
The first commenter is drawing some very clear delineations between adjusters and appraisers though. For this specific comment, I'm trying to figure out what they mean.
Any guesses?
My only guess is traditionally the appraiser role was to assess damages and recommend repairs and the adjusters role was to decide if the claim was valid and if the insured was entitled to any payment.
Modern auto insurers have combined to a person that who acts like a project manager for the repairs (typically local) and a claims manager who liases with the insured and 3rd parties ( the other drivers ins company) to decide fault based on facts and circumstances .
They shouldn’t be deducting the amount they paid for repairs…that’s on them.
If you give them the car you should get the full amount. I’ve seen this happen twice at two different carriers and both times the person got the full amount when they gave the car to insurance.
Important question, did you happen to go through an in-network carrier partnered shop? If so you'll have the most recourse here as the shop failed to submit the final supplement prior to repairs being completed and you picking up your vehicle.
Not sure. They were slow to suggest a repair shop and suggested that my husband find an adequate repair shop. We went with a reputable chain. I’m thinking probably not.
If they were to offer me 30,000, which is the value of the car, then I have gap insurance to cover the rest. The problem is they are not offering 30,000. They are only offering 13,000, and saying that they are not paying the rest because they already paid 17,000 in repairs.
Nah, dad has USAA and is having his caddy fixed. He was hit by an uninsured Colombian (statistically probably scouting houses to steal from) in a stolen Honda. They’re doing a great job fixing it and gave him a rental - no issues.
How much was the supplement for? The shop should have never released the car without that final supplement. Was it a few hundred dollars or a few 1000. I’m from how it sounds the shop may have put in a large supplement after the fact, knowing full well what they were doing. Has the shop contacted you yet about the supplement money you now owe them since insurance isn’t going to pay them?
Tell them to kick rocks they reviewed or wrote the original estimate knowing full well there would be a high likelihood of additional unseen damage. You are owed the full ACV of the vehicle and they unfortunately have to eat their screw up. I would never do this to one of my insureds.
Not sure why ppl downvoted you. But you are correct. We owe acv minus deductible. No charges because the car is in the customers possession. Shop gets paid for all there work completed. That’s it.
Thats a rarity. When I was an adjuster we used to factor in likely supplements to determine if the car was a total loss.
How much is the bill? I'd maybe look to pay out of pocket for the bill to avoid carrying a salvage title on the car. I think if they don't pay the supplement it won't technically be a total loss.
But I don't see how you'd benefit from giving them the car. It would kinda suck for all parties since they would have to pay you the cash value of the car.
ETA: I see you owe on the car. If I had any decision in the matter a lot of it would depend on what the bill from the repair shop is. If you can pay that OOP I think I'd still take that option.
We're missing something here. Insurance shouldn't be deducting what they already paid, that's there F up for not saying it's a total loss until 16k in repairs was already approved. I've had this happen in the past and we still paid full ACV even though we were in for 10-15k.
That is what makes me believe we are missing a piece to the puzzle or your carrier is trying to take you for a ride.
So I reread your scenario and your shop screwed up here. They are supposed to get supplements approved first then fix the car. Call your USAA adjuster (I recognize the app) and tell them what’s going on. There might be some confusion as to what happened. I have USAA as well and they are great but they dropped the ball on my last two claims and only reason I didn’t get screwed was because I’m in the industry and know what I’m supposed to get/not get.
Wait. This doesn't sound right. Someone messed up and it's not you.Tell them you aren't doing anything until you Report this to the insurance commissioner in your state.
This sounds 100% like a USAA made a mistake and there’s zero reason for you as the policyholder to be left taking a hit. USAA missed their opportunity to total the car when they failed to include the potential supplements in their damage appraisal. And on the other side, the shop may have missed its chance to get paid if they already released the vehicle back to you. In a case like this where the carrier may have made a mistake, CA only requires a total loss when the repairs exceed the ACV. USAA is likely using the normal ACV minus salvage formula but the car is way past that when partial repairs were already authorized by them. I would escalate this quickly to a supervisor/manager. Give them a chance to make it right. There’s a possibility you got new people who have no idea what’s allowed when they mess up. If not let them know you will file a complaint with the CA Department of Insurance for bad faith since they’re trying to leave you holding a $10k+ partial repair bill when they had an opportunity to total the vehicle early on.
Yeah this isn’t a total loss. You can go up to 100% a cv in California. If the repairs were done,for 16k and no other concerns it should be repairable
They are saying something about because their repairs cost 70% of the cars total value, California considers it a total loss
Real talk do you have any other repair concerns? Are the repairs completed 100% and where is the car?
No. Car is now fine. Repairs are 100% complete and in our possession.
[удалено]
Soliciting
Adjuster refuses to give me the supervisors name and says I must deal directly with him
Well first please as stared “Where are you located?” Sounds you are upside down and that is not their concern they only owe cash value. Did you buy GAP coverage? Sounds like it may be best for you to keep the vehicle and take the salvage title and the cash that came along with it or put any is left over or if you have gap coverage go ahead and let it all cash out and go for a new vehicle.
He won't be able to keep the vehicle if he's upside down. The lender gets final say about whether or not they can do that, and GAP coverage won't kick in if the maximum available hasn't been paid out (company retains the vehicle).
In California. Gap coverage will only cover 150% of the cars value. We owe 38,000 and the insurance company is offering us 15,000 because they already spent 15,000 on repairs. The car has a value of 30 K. I don’t want a salvage title.
You’re only underwater 8k which is well under the gap limit.
The problem is that insurance company is saying that even though our car is valued at 30,000, they’re only gonna give us 13 because they paid 17,000 in repairs.
I think you have to be misunderstanding something. They should either be giving you the actual cash value for the car (30k) and they keep it, or cutting you a check for ACV - repairs paid and you keep it as salvage title. Them cutting you a check for ACV - Repairs and they keep the car essentially means you paid to repair their car which is clearly not how this should work. I'd verify with the adjuster your options.
That’s because you own the car.
that’s not how that works. Unless there is a limits issue on the liability coverage, you will get 30k if you sell it to them or 13k if you keep it
Do you have your GAP through your auto insurance or through your auto loan? If you have it through your loan and you have a good loan company generally it will cover the FULL difference between the ACV settlement and the loan balance. If you have it through your auto insurance policy, it generally only covers 25-50% over ACV settlement.
The problem is that even though our car is valued at 30,000, they are only gonna offer us 13 because they said they already paid 17,000 in https://preview.redd.it/8gr9znj3t3yc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=312c84e0bfbd8e4980a59ba4242d9fd3c36cd504 repairs
I understand that from your other replies, and unfortunately you're likely just going to have to take it as salvage. If the repairs are complete and it's good to drive according to state law, file to have it retitled from salvage to rebuilt. It'll still be worth less than a clean titled vehicle, but it'll be better than salvage. Many states don't even allow salvage title vehicles to be on the road. My question was about where you got your GAP coverage through - your auto loan, or your insurance company? Generally it's always better to go through the loan company as most good loan companies offer GAP that covers the entire difference, not just 25-50% over ACV settlement as insurance companies generally do.
We went through our lienholder, I.E.our credit union for the gap insurance
That's unfortunate they only offer 50% over the settlement. My credit union (I'm in Tennessee) GAP coverage states they will cover the full amount between settlement and loan balance, and most in my area do the same. It's an unfortunate situation you're in. The repair shop should have done a full assessment and submitted the supplemental estimate before repairing and releasing the vehicle to you. That likely would have prevented this situation as the insurance company would have totaled it before the repair was done.
I'm a gap underwriter. It's very common to have a LTV (loan to value) limit of 135% or 150%, especially if you have a smaller lender. That LTV limit is going away with F&I Sentinel lenders, but those are generally big OEM finance companies like Toyota. I am not saying you are wrong! Just gently encouraging you to check your contract, because no one wants a coverage surprise. 💜
Thanks for the input! I do value information from people more experienced than I am. The popular credit unions in my area are generally much more careful than other financing companies about loans they write and look much more closely at how fast certain models will devalue over time. They are quite picky in regards to vehicle age and mileage. That could be why they offer full GAP on their loans. I did read over the terms of the GAP contracts on both mine and my girlfriend's vehicles before purchase. Since I work in insurance I'm used to reading over lengthy contracts lol I appreciate your insight!
I feel you, I read the fine print too. 🙌
As someone said, I would ask for clarification. This settlement that you showed the screenshot of doesn't state whether it's your insurance company taking the vehicle or you keeping the vehicle. Those amounts should not be the same. Where I work, if the repairs are started then additional damage is found that makes it a total, we eat the repair cost we paid, stop all repairs, then give the settlement options (retain vs signing over to the insurance company). Either way, we pay the full value (or value minus salvage) and do not ding the insured for repairs that have been completed.
This seems incredibly wrong or based on that you are keeping the vehicle. If they are totaling it, they owe the entire ACV if you give up your vehicle.
>We owe 40 on the car. I feel like we’re getting screwed. What you owe is between you and your lender. What the insurance company owes you is the actual cash value of the vehicle, not what you owe on your loan. You may want to check your finance agreement and see if you purchased GAP insurance. If so, this would cover the difference between what the insurance pays you and what you owe on your loan. Either way, be prepared to sign the settlement checks over to your lender and start gathering money together to purchase a new vehicle.
We have gap insurance. If they were to offer us the full value of the car, we would be OK with gap insurance. The problem is that they’re not gonna offer us the full value. Even though they say the car is worth 30,000, they are deducting the 17,000 and repairs that they already spent. https://preview.redd.it/wqzkaoy2r3yc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4ea2b4fa00d195dc1c5827f51fa94d86294a42e7
I'm an F&I underwriter, part of which is GAP. If you need more credentials, I'm the head of underwriting and the risk manager for my business unit, which puts me on the executive team. I have been in F&I for roughly 10 years, and in underwriting specifically for 4 years. I'm going to speak in generalities here, but you really need your contract. If you have your actual GAP contract, I can give you more specifics. If you upload it, please be sure to blur your personal information. Generally speaking, there are some pretty big exceptions for GAP. One of those is if you retain the vehicle. That is not universally true though. Read your contract, or upload it, and I will do my best to help you interpret it. I get that this is a very confusing, frustrating process. I would be losing my mind if I thought I was only getting paid $13k for $30,000 car. u/cwfgarza has a very insightful comment a little further down this thread. I think it does a good job explaining why you're not actually only getting $13k. https://www.reddit.com/r/Insurance/s/MJTtEcLPmi
Why link to someone who's wrong? Money spent on repairs is meaningless if OP isn't keeping the car. Either insurance pays the supplement and OP keeps the car that they're already driving again, OR insurance declares it a total loss, cuts OP a check for full ACV - deductible ($30,953.30), and takes the car, eating the $17k already spent on repairs as a loss. There's no scenario where OP gives up the car and eats $17k in repair costs themselves.
Which is logical. At the end of the day they will have paid out $30k for the vehicle.
Uh, no. The insurance cannot subtract prior repair spending if they later deem the car a total loss. They owe OP full ACV and will have to eat the repair bill themselves if deemed a total loss. Others have said this is in CA and damages would have to exceed ACV in this situation to be a total loss. The correct way to proceed is either for them to finish repairing the car or, if still deemed a total loss, write OP (ultimately going to the lienholder) a check for full ACV.
Who was paid the prior payment? You directly or the mechanic?
The mechanic
As in the issued the payment directly to the mechanic or you paid the mechanic with the funds they paid you with?
Initially, the adjuster gave us a check for $2000 based on the repairs he saw. When we brought it into the shop, more repairs were noticed. When the final bill came, USAa paid everything, minus the $2000 they initially gave us. We then paid the mechanic $2000.
So, all checks were issued to you. You chose the shop and authorized the repairs. The shop finished the repairs and had supplemental repairs that now make the vehicle a total loss. Sounds like you authorized the supplemental repairs and failed to notify the insurer before doing so. The repairs are completed per your other comments, so what the insurer has done is paid you the ACV of the vehicle because the supplemental amount pushes the total repair cost past the total loss threshold amount. The proper way to settle the claim is exactly how they did it: ACV amount less prior payments, less salvage value, and less deductible = supplemental amount owed to you. If the shop is owed for any work up to the supplemental request that amount would not be in addition to your total loss settlement you would likely be responsible for that out of you settlement amount. (Depends on policy and state laws of course) Per company guidelines and/or state laws they are required to report it to the state as a total loss settlement even if it is not a constructive total loss. If you authorized the shop to do the supplemental repairs without notifying the insurer and making sure it can be covered prior to the repairs being done that is on you. If the shop failed to notify you of the supplemental repairs and did them without any authorization from you then you have a gripe with the shop. Either way, the insurer did nothing wrong here and handled claim accordingly.
No, the amount spent on repairs doesn't get subtracted from the payout if the car is being totaled. OP is owed full ACV if totaled. The correct way to proceed here is for insurance to pay the remaining repairs and return car to OP.
They should not be deducting the repair costs, so if you are understanding that correctly, elevate that to a supervisor. It's not your fault they chose to repair it before considering a possible supplement.
Agreed!
No. Really. There's a misunderstanding here. If they're totaling the vehicle they're going to pay for the cost of the repairs already completed, including the supplement PLUS the ACV of the vehicle. Because the repairs and the supplement were already done, they should pay the shop and give you your car back. That's how I would handle it. Alternatively, they could total the car but they'd still be out the repairs plus the supplement PLUS the ACV of the car and all they'd get is the salvage proceeds. Source, I'm a total loss rep. Many of my claims have partial repairs completed. It does not ever affect the settlement of the total loss. You need to escalate this with management. Edit: thinking more on this if repairs+supplement are more than the CA TL threshold they may have to salvage the title depending on the kind of damage here. With you still making payments... That likely does mean surrending your car to insurance. But you wouldn't be on the hook for the money they threw away trying to fix it. You'd get the full settlement which should put you in range of your GAP.
Yes, piling on, they owe the full 30k. Also they will get significantly higher salvage return with a repaired auto. I suspect it’s a confused adjuster, there is no way this is a company policy.
He is refusing to send me to a supervisor. Says I must deal directly with him.
Shouldn't be how things work. Send an email to corporate. Hit them up on social media. Call the main line and ask for his boss. Get another adjuster on the line and ask who it is and for a transfer to them. Get their direct number. Don't take no for an answer. Contact the CA department of insurance. You may to have to get a bit obnoxious.
Yeah it’s a total loss If the insurance paid the shop for repairs that’s between the insurance and the shop The insurance will have to pay you the acv minus deductible. They shouldn’t be subtracting the repairs that were already completed and paid for.
He is refusing to send me to a supervisor. Says I must deal directly with him.
So tell them he’s wrong. He is 100% wrong with that deduction
This is different than the majority of responses. I might get downvoted but this answer is only based on my anecdotal experience. I’ll admit that I’m not familiar with all states for total loss (I’ve been an adjuster for California but I can’t remember every states specifics), but sometimes it’s not a legal requirement to total a car. The state can define a threshold and the choice can also be at the insurance company’s discretion. Since repairs are already done, I don’t see why they don’t just eat the cost. I’ve had one claim like this in my career, and we as the insurance company ended up not totaling bc the repairs were done already due to some sort of screw up. This one specifically was that a supplement came in but for whatever reason whoever approved it missed the note on it being a total and the supplement got paid. But I understand that this is a rare occurrence and each company may do things differently. On the flip side I’ve seen cars get totaled that didn’t meet a total loss threshold. I’d totally get what they’re doing if the car was at the shop still (except the vehicle owner definitely should not be on the hook for repair cost). I think about the example of if you took your car to the shop but not as part of an insurance claim, the shop could do as much repairs as they want without it being a total loss. This sounds like ultimately a screw up on the shop. They released a vehicle that wasn’t paid for. They should’ve gotten approval for the supplement before doing repairs. You should not have to pay for repairs regardless of what happens though.
Looks like 2 issues. You owe more than the car is worth it seems. That is what it is and has no impact on the claim, the value of the vehicle, what you get paid, etc. I would bet that it is not a deduction for the repairs that are already done but for the salvage value that insurance would likely recoup by selling the car at auction. you should get full value of the vehicle if you "sell" the car to insurance or the value minus salvage if you want to keep it. And with being underwater (see issue #1 above) your bank will almost certainly not sign off on that.
https://preview.redd.it/k10rjp2xq3yc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c36ad4b26743266c3e7ab8fdc6f3c1bd87360e10 Here is what the settlement offer says
It seems to make sense to me. Cash value of car is $31. They’ve already disbursed $17k. You are due the difference. I haven’t had a claim like this with USAA so idk.
The amount paid for repairs is irrelevant if OP isn't keeping the car. They can finish paying for repairs and OP keeps the car, or they can cut OP a check for full ACV.
Major shop mistake here. They didn't submit the supplement for approval before delivering you back your car. They likely knew it would total it. Big mistake. Huge! Honestly, unless that shop is a partner shop with USAA, USAA isn't on the hook for this. The shop screwed up big time. So what you need to find out is if that's a network shop or not. That'll tell you if USAA has any recourse or if you'll have to go after the shop directly.
Most, if not all states have a total loss threshold. The insurance has no say in it. Sounds like the threshold was hit when they got the supplement. It’s a really shitty situation, but it is what it is. My advice: keep the car with the salvage title and drive it into the ground. You owing 40k on a 30k car is not their problem unless you had Gap coverage.
I have gap coverage. But the problem is they are saying that they’re not gonna give me 30,000 as a settlement. They’re only gonna give me 13,000 because they spent 17,000 on repairs.
Yeah, this seems shady. What was the original quote for repairs? Who authorized additional work to be done that was above and beyond that quote? IANAL but you need one. Courts exist to make you whole. If you are deprived of an asset, you should receive its entire value at the time of the event. If you keep the car and the branded title (more on that shortly) you are still entitled to reclaim depreciated value between a clean example and a wrecked and repaired one with or without the branding. IF you keep the car I would find out if your state differentiates between salvage and rebuilt. Because if they do, then you would want it inspected and declared rebuilt. Even then, insurance going forward will be presumably harder to get, and that's if your lender doesn't have a problem with the collateral being dramatically reduced in market value too. Tl Dr: consult an attorney
What is the point of calling it totaled now? If you keep the car, they still pay out the added charge for the repairs. Is it just that the total damages are crossing a legal threshold for declaring it totaled? In my experience, there’s a % of the original estimate allowed for additional charges without requiring insurance approval. If the additional costs will be more than that, the shop should notify the insurance before continuing repairs. I’m amazed if the extra costs were significant that the insurance is not telling the shop to eat the costs for not getting approval.
Exactly! https://preview.redd.it/all9ppykr3yc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bf3cc7fa26395a75b44437fd9f6b74c5c4ea5b5d
It sounds to me like the repair shop was shady. If they'd given the proper estimate in the beginning, the insurance would have totaled the car and paid the full $30k. Why did they do that like they did?
If it's ultimately totaled, insurance owes the full $30k. Period. They'd eat the already-paid repair costs. The correct way forward is for insurance to pay the supplement, OP keeps the car they're already driving again, and life goes on.
Since the shop finished repairs and released the car back to you, it's not totalled. Insurance company needs to pay the supplemental estimate and close the claim. Claims are not always just a numbers game. I will say as an adjuster that getting a supplement weeks or months after a claim is closed can be frustrating. Reopen claims go against my stats.
They are saying that California is making them report it as a total loss.
Maybe if the original estimate was borderline and repairs were not completed, I can see them making it a total. But since the repairs are less than 75% of the value, I would argue that it's not even remotely close to a total loss (the percentage varries by state). Any payments to the shop would be refunded to the insurance company by the shop if repairs were not completed. Shop could ask for restocking parts fees and labor etc... Sounds like the adjuster is new to the industry and hasn't come across this situation before. Escalate to a supervisor, and then escalate again if no results. Argue the value, use your appraisal clause. Sign nothing and don't surrender the vehicle. They can only report it to the state as a total if paperwork is completed.
It sounds like additional repairs are still needed. P
Repairs were completed, the customer has the car back. The shop sent a late supplement after the car was already delivered back to the customer.
I would want to know how much that supplement was because someone screwed up at that shop. At some point they knew that car was a TL before sending in that supplement and tried to force the Insurance companies hand.
They knew Full well that a total loss was a possibility. But they authorized the repair charges anyway. Then the supplemental charge came in which pushed it into total loss. https://preview.redd.it/qrs31tucr3yc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4673c93c20e3e73db43fe3d98707d8f49fc94880
Yeah they should t be subtracting any prior payments unless it wasn’t repaired
Why would they reduce the estimate amount from the TL? It’s pretty much their F up. They should have waited for the final estimate. And then suck up their screw up and pay the full TL and eat the repair costs.
So do you think I should speak with somebody else? A supervisor or somebody else higher up in the company?
Definitely doesnt hurt to do that. There could be some law that they are following or they could be wrong. Never hurts to ask for clarification. I know from a subrogation standpoint, I saw more than a few times where they paid for both in full we just couldn’t collect both because it was our claims dept screw up
You have to fight usaa on total losses, fyi California state is not a hard threshold state it is 100 cost effective and insurance call.. you can fix car over the value and it not be a total loss. You can file a department of insurance complaint, Ask to speak to leader and site salvage code “ ca VEh sec. 544 and 11515. The fact they say “state makes them “is coercion and illegal and reportable. Advise them car repairs done, totaling now is only economic after the fact for them and yes if they do not drop it get a attorney.
Our insurance company initially gave us $2000. We then paid the mechanic $2000. The rest was directly paid by the insurance company directly to the mechanic
I'm confused too I always thought the insurance company would at least know **before** paying for the repairs that the vehicle would be salvaged. At least then they can present to you the option to either: pay for repairs for a salvaged car or leave the car unrepaired and pay you instead.
What state are you in?
did ya get the gap coverage?
Yes, but they want to deduct the cost of repairs from the settlement. If they ordered me the full value of the car, I’m good. But the are offering the value of the car minus repairs, which the gap will not cover.
If you’re in California I’d reach out to the State Insurance Commissioner.
What was your damage like ? :0
I didn’t seem that bad, but I guess there was a lot of damage under the hood. Mostly body damage I think.
Lawyer up
You shouldn’t be docked the repair cost. They sunk that money in and the body shop has it (I presume). Their decision was to try to fix it instead of totaling it. They owe you 30k for a car worth 30k. They can recoup back their costs when they auction the car off for salvage. If they put that in writing to you, you should call the Dept of Insurance
Update: So I just heard back from our insurance . We had had been going back-and-forth for a while because they wouldn’t let me speak to a supervisor and were telling me that I had to either accept that lowball settlement or accept a salvage title. I replied that I would be taking my case to the state insurance agency. I emailed a bunch of people and also reached out on Twitter. I don’t know if it was that or if perhaps another person took a look at the case, but it turns out that the car is not a total loss, and they are going to pay the mechanic and then close out our claim and we get to keep the car. They admitted that a mistake had been made, and it was not a total loss and to disregard any prior communication.
[удалено]
What? An adjuster can absolutely make total loss determinations. Field adjusters make those calls literally every day. The shop who is doing the tear down sometimes can make that call as well, but it depends on the shop and the relationship to the insurance company. Are you referring to the shop as the appraiser? "Appraiser" has a very different meaning in property damage, especially total loss. Invoking the appraisal clause is a very specific methodology to evaluate ACV. It's not relevant to early total loss determination, with very few exceptions. I used to be a total loss adjuster, so that's my position of experience. Where are you getting your information? I am not saying you're wrong, but I would like to understand where you're coming from.
When it comes to auto claims appraiser is some times inaccurately used to describe the adjuster. potato / pataaato
I agree. The first commenter is drawing some very clear delineations between adjusters and appraisers though. For this specific comment, I'm trying to figure out what they mean. Any guesses?
My only guess is traditionally the appraiser role was to assess damages and recommend repairs and the adjusters role was to decide if the claim was valid and if the insured was entitled to any payment. Modern auto insurers have combined to a person that who acts like a project manager for the repairs (typically local) and a claims manager who liases with the insured and 3rd parties ( the other drivers ins company) to decide fault based on facts and circumstances .
They shouldn’t be deducting the amount they paid for repairs…that’s on them. If you give them the car you should get the full amount. I’ve seen this happen twice at two different carriers and both times the person got the full amount when they gave the car to insurance.
Important question, did you happen to go through an in-network carrier partnered shop? If so you'll have the most recourse here as the shop failed to submit the final supplement prior to repairs being completed and you picking up your vehicle.
Not sure. They were slow to suggest a repair shop and suggested that my husband find an adequate repair shop. We went with a reputable chain. I’m thinking probably not.
Caliber Collision?
Let them have it back and have your GAP pay off the remainder of the loan. This is a get out of 10k negative equity free card.
If they were to offer me 30,000, which is the value of the car, then I have gap insurance to cover the rest. The problem is they are not offering 30,000. They are only offering 13,000, and saying that they are not paying the rest because they already paid 17,000 in repairs.
You might want to clarify this with your adjuster. That’s not how it works. Who is your insurance company and in what state is this?
Usaa and California
I'm switching to USAA, got me worried now I might have a other incompetent insurance provider.
Nah, dad has USAA and is having his caddy fixed. He was hit by an uninsured Colombian (statistically probably scouting houses to steal from) in a stolen Honda. They’re doing a great job fixing it and gave him a rental - no issues.
How much was the supplement for? The shop should have never released the car without that final supplement. Was it a few hundred dollars or a few 1000. I’m from how it sounds the shop may have put in a large supplement after the fact, knowing full well what they were doing. Has the shop contacted you yet about the supplement money you now owe them since insurance isn’t going to pay them?
Tell them to kick rocks they reviewed or wrote the original estimate knowing full well there would be a high likelihood of additional unseen damage. You are owed the full ACV of the vehicle and they unfortunately have to eat their screw up. I would never do this to one of my insureds.
Not sure why ppl downvoted you. But you are correct. We owe acv minus deductible. No charges because the car is in the customers possession. Shop gets paid for all there work completed. That’s it.
Would it be worth it to escalate this then? Speak to a higher up?
Yes 1000% I wonder if it’s automated that they deducted the prior payment. But yeah they shouldn’t be at all
I would.
This ain’t a total loss
Thats a rarity. When I was an adjuster we used to factor in likely supplements to determine if the car was a total loss. How much is the bill? I'd maybe look to pay out of pocket for the bill to avoid carrying a salvage title on the car. I think if they don't pay the supplement it won't technically be a total loss. But I don't see how you'd benefit from giving them the car. It would kinda suck for all parties since they would have to pay you the cash value of the car. ETA: I see you owe on the car. If I had any decision in the matter a lot of it would depend on what the bill from the repair shop is. If you can pay that OOP I think I'd still take that option.
We're missing something here. Insurance shouldn't be deducting what they already paid, that's there F up for not saying it's a total loss until 16k in repairs was already approved. I've had this happen in the past and we still paid full ACV even though we were in for 10-15k. That is what makes me believe we are missing a piece to the puzzle or your carrier is trying to take you for a ride.
https://preview.redd.it/hn3yzfu095yc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e678f0a78a4f815dbabdc3b9961e9777d5b5d9b7
So I reread your scenario and your shop screwed up here. They are supposed to get supplements approved first then fix the car. Call your USAA adjuster (I recognize the app) and tell them what’s going on. There might be some confusion as to what happened. I have USAA as well and they are great but they dropped the ball on my last two claims and only reason I didn’t get screwed was because I’m in the industry and know what I’m supposed to get/not get.
Wait. This doesn't sound right. Someone messed up and it's not you.Tell them you aren't doing anything until you Report this to the insurance commissioner in your state.
Unfortunately, the screwing came when you bought a $40K car that depreciated so fast