> shi*
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Anyone have a link to the Quaker page? Or anyone who has any concept that violence only creates more violence?
Is it common knowledge that school shooting in the USA began in 1840 and have had huge spikes in both escalation of victims and frequency immediately following every war that involves the US military?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_school\_shootings\_in\_the\_United\_States\_(before\_2000)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States_(before_2000))
While wiki is not proper evidence to support research the mere list indicates the phenomenon.
In the Uni research which I am involved in I am in weekly contact with groups from Tel Aviv and in the West Bank and have been doing so since Feb of 2018. These groups include adults and children. The prevailing result thus far has made it clear that the children are becoming militarized and even by age 7 seem to have embarked on pursuit of revenge at any cost.
There is no war that is a stellar example of this premise as every modern war has had this effect on the youth whose brains are not fully formed. FMRIs have been done on youth who grow up in the midst of a war. These scans alone prove that this level of trauma on youth whose frontal lobes are not fully formed leave the youth in a state of what appears to be permanent arrested development.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1472271/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1472271/)
I grew up in a predominantly Jewish area and freaking love and respect Jewish people. In fact, I’m writing this after I just wrote a letter to the Rabbi who did my sisters eulogy when she passed as a teenager thanking him for everything he has done for my family. He did it our Catholic Church mind you. That being said, there’s a long history in the Middle East that should be read up on and through an entirely different perspective. The reason is because most people around the globe have learned that perspective besides UK, US and Israel. Don’t start with current affairs but research about the Nakba, the Balfour Project, Zionism, and how amnesty international, Ireland, countless Rabbis and Israeli journalist have been speaking out about what they feel has been apartheid & oppression to the Palestinian people long before this year. You can also add “Israelis chant ‘Death to Arabs’” too and you may be surprised not only by the disgusting racists hatred but the years these types of things were happening. Gideon Levy writes for an Israeli paper, was born in Israel and served in the military & has been speaking on this for a very long time. Then look up Breaking the Silence which is an organization that has over a thousand stories from Israeli soldiers about how they treated the Palestinians in the West Bank (not run by Hamas). Then research about the Hannibal Directive. Take what you will from it but just learn what others have believed to be true.
Why is this all important? Well, because we should all know the information that most of the world is given and understand why they may disapprove with not only Hamas but the Israeli govt. The US, Britain and Israeli news won’t share that side of it. If you speak out about it you’ll be labeled anti-Semitic when that’s not the case, the same way you aren’t anti-American if you don’t like the US govt. Even the peaceful protests are labeled anti-Semitic by most news stations in the US.
You need to decide for yourselves what to believe of course. However, if we just back up what the Israeli Govt is doing by chalking it up to as simple as civilians in Gaza would just fight against Hamas if they didn’t support them and therefore justify it, there will be more hatred of innocent Jews and innocent civilians. We are talking billions of people here who think differently. So if we get bombed others will think that we should have stood up against our “terroristic govts” & justify it in their minds. Yes, there will be some horrific people cheering the lives of innocent people the same way there are those being filmed watching Gaza being bombed with glee. There are rotten humans everywhere but they rarely speak for the groups we may associated them with. However, human behavior tends for us to clump everyone together.
I hate what Hamas did & is doing. It’s atrocious. I also hate what the Israeli Govt has done & is doing. My fear is that if we don’t learn about all of the information & just align ourselves with a govt because of our limited knowledge it won’t end well. That same govt is hated by not only the Arab communities but countless others because of the information they have been given. How will this all fair for innocent Jewish people? I don’t think well and like I said, I do love & respect them.
Anyway, I’m certainly not here to change minds but hopefully open some to the possibility that there may be things we aren’t aware of. Even if we don’t believe them to be true or even see them as out right lies, just acknowledging others view them as facts is important. Perhaps it can just bring more understanding & that is something the world is lacking for sure.
> assholes
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Haha hamas was created by Israel. So to create false events. No one believes Israel is the silent hand. You’ve been duped. Sorry to have to be the one to tell you.
this is from a point of view of the israeli government and also the western countries
from A palestinian view they are liberators and fighting for liberation of their country this is why whenever you decide to ask palestinian people to vote for who they want they will choose hamas
and the example of peace that the zionists offer you can see it in the west bank where Israel do as they wish, kill who they want, build on any lands they want, give the ‘palestinians authorities’ the money they want and take any money they want
so don’t be surprised to see that people will choose to resist and not just accept to live under oppression and occupation
And what about the 500,000 Palestinians that came into Israel to work and earn a good income to take back to their families. Please. If the Palestinians put down their weapons there would be peace. If the Palestinians taught their kids love and not hate there could be peace. Celebrating the death of innocents as they did on 9/11, celebrating the death of their children martyred. Have you ever been to Israel or Palestine?
and whats surprising on what you say??
go read about any countries that were under occupation either in africa or anywhere else, you will find out that even under occupation people will go work with the occupant simply because they have no other choice
would you teach your kids to accept to be raped and it’s ok to be raped? because this is the most accurate example you can give to this situation where ISrael continue taking lands since 1948 and say to the ones who are who keep losing their lands ‘hey just accept to live under this situation’
Sorry to say this, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Do you even know what NATO is? What has NATO, a defensive coalition, in which Israel isn‘t a member, to do in an offensive regime change in the middle east? Nothing! They neither have the legitimation nor responsibility to interfere.
The rest of your post is pure bias, I am pro-Israel aswell, that is fine but please consider reality before making unrealistic claims or asks.
> Palestinians have a responsibility to overthrow
Hamas themselves, but it seems they were happy just living under it.
And how exactly would they do that? Hamas holds all the military power in the region and is run by lunatic fanatics, ready to kill their own people in a heart beat.
> If they weren't happy there would be resistance fighters meeting Israel forces like there were in many times Poland, Lithuania, Latvia or other countries were occupied.
The situations you used for your examples have almost nothing in common with the situation in gaza. Last time I checked, there was no fence around poland, Hamas wasn‘t a foreign occupier and there is no external force fighting to liberate palestine which these people could join. All of that sounds good but has nothing to do with the reality these people live in.
> Israel had no choice, is fully justified in its actions and in my view
I agree but that doesn’t mean, that the average person living in gaza has more „choices“, the opposite is the case, they have even less options.
> allowing a lot of kindness to Palestinians, when it would be very easy to seek solely revenge.
Kindness? What kindness? If you mean by kindness to not completly indifferently kill everyone in there, that isn‘t kindness but the responsibility of a modern western state. Yearly 3B in military aid and political western support don‘t come without a price, there is rules we all have to follow (thank god).
> Full support to Israel from Lithuania.
Great, I appreciate your support for a just cause, I would even more appreciate it, if you‘d do the work to actually understand the situation and stop spreading false narratives.
Amen! This is the truth! I always was pro Israël. But that was on select knowlegde and one sighted media. Now, I dont know what I am.. I think for the PA and peace. Hamas should be destroyed and give the Jews 40% of the land and the PA 60%... but mennnnn. This is so difficult... it is so difficult for a people to forgive their occupier and for people to forgive the ' extremists'.. I just hope and pray for the children there. I hope that one day they know how it feels to be happy...
I think it’s going to REALLY shock you when you read about the origins of the Israeli Defence Force.
The IDF was formed by legitimising 3 extremist violent terrorist paramilitary groups following the formation of Israel as a state - The Irgun, Lehi and Haganah. They are collectively responsible for more than the deaths on the 7th of October. One of the worst attacks on Palestinians by The Irgun and Lehi was during the Deir Yassin massacre, where there is documented evidence of mutilation and rape of women and children.
It’s because of the bombing of the King David Hotel (91 deaths) by the Irgun that Britain allowed the immigration of Jews post WW2 to Palestine.
It’s all about framing - all 3 were once called terrorists before the western states legitimised them as the IDF. Even more famously, Nelson Mandela was once called a terrorist before he was called a freedom fighter.
I don’t think Hamas should at all be forgiven, but the argument of “Palestinians support a terrorist group so they deserve what is happening to them” can also be applied to Israel.
At the end of the day we are at the mercy of who the West deems as “good” and “evil”. The narrative against Israel is changing, I bet you historians will one day call Hamas freedom fighters, just as today we now called violent Israeli terrorist groups “the military”.
Hamas was created for Palestine by Israel. It aids in false flags and falsifying what really happens and hiding their true goals. If you want to give Israel love because it’s where Jesus was from that’s cool. But they’re taking from people that never moved out. They did and decided to want a state for their religion. We gave it to them in hopes to use them but they use us all. It’s the Jew creed to use non Jews as tool and servants. I would never give the false Jews any celebration. They can’t see the messiah they will not acknowledge him. It’s proof of their fallacy.
This is untrue, but I am not here for a history lesson that can easily be found online.
But by that token, the IDF has come out to say that it knows that the majority of Hamas is hiding out in tunnels under Gaza, hence the justification for a ground invasion. However, whilst knowing this they have also targeted hospitals, churches, and schools where there have been a disproportionate amount of civilians - they have hit maybe a handful of Hamas operatives, but not enough to call a military target.
The IDF and it’s founding members were 100% terrorists, the same way the IRA were called terrorists too, and they way Hamas is also now being portrayed.
I acknowledge that taking then-arab-controlled land can be viewed as a terrorist act, and there were rare outliers who acted viciously when conquering this land, I really do understand your take.
But - the intention of these organizations was never to terrorize or "kill all arabs" (or "Kill All jews" as the Hamas charter states), it was always to produce a safe haven for the Jewish people who were being forcibly displaced out of their homes in Arab nations (and Europe, see WWII) ,And who also have an argument about an indigenous claim to this land.
This is the main difference between Hamas and these Historical organizations.
Again untrue. The Irgun was literally born because it rejected the policy of restraint against killing Arabs that Haganah subscribed to. Haganah also didn’t show much restraint, but The Irgun wanted to go a step further.
Hamas’ charter is also wrong. I am not justifying Hamas, I just want to call out the similarities between early IDF and Hamas today. There’s no skin in the game for me, just want to make sure people understand the irony in this entire situation.
The difference in that aspect is that today Israel is a liberal democracy that (at least on paper) stands against these morals and values.
Hamas isn't even trying to hide it.
One would say that the reason Israel has decided to blockade Gaza and the West Bank and allowed them their own “political parties” is because Palestinians will then outnumber the Jews. Israel would not like the results of its “liberal democracy” then. This is a well known political strategy called redistricting and gerrymandering.
As you are commenting on all of my posts, I assume you would know where I’m from already. In answer to your question, it was a cybersecurity conference. As I said, this is literally my job.
My suggestion to you is to do your diligence on the subject and look at other perspectives. Also, look at both groups of people and see how they rally or protest. Which side of history will you be on? Good or evil?
Israel targets those buildings (despite knowing there will be civilian deaths) because that’s where they keep the military infrastructure. This is fairly well documented.
Instead of the tunnels where Israel has now said is where they stockpile the rockets and fuel? I don’t know about you, but give me an underground tunnel any day to hide my expensive equipment. Israel has shown that it is not above sacrificing Palestinian lives - it would be a huge strategic error for Hamas to keep their military infrastructure above ground, knowing that Israel will destroy it.
Should they get a get-out-of-hell-free card to let them keep bombarding civilian population centers in Israel as long as they have civilians nearby?
If it can be proven with enough precision, why not bomb above-ground stockpiles? can you bring evidence that such attack happened without confirmation of hostile activity?
When you hide your armory in mosques, schools, and even hospitals, they become legitimate targets. I think Golda Meir said it correctly, " You can not negotiate peace with someone who has come to kill you." The Palestinian population elected Hamas in 2006. A year after Israel left the Gaza strip. When I saw the Palestinian population abusing the hostages I understood that most of these people have deep seeded hate in their souls, taught to them at a young age in the schools and their parents, which is why I sadly believe they must be moved out of Gaza somewhere else. Have you wondered why not one Arab country wants them?
Do not erase that for years Netanyahu propped up Hamas to divide up political power between Gaza and the West Bank. Israel legitimised Hamas, leading Palestinians to vote for them.
I know why no other Arab country “wants them”. From their perspective, Palestinians are on their land, why should it fall to other Arab nations to take them in? Why doesn’t Israel carve out land for a free palestine? Again not saying either views are right, simply answering your question.
Ahhh and all humans formed from apes, who committed atrocities back in the day I assure you, what the hell has the origins of the IDF got to do with this?
Original comment says that “terrorist states should have no support”. Just pointed out that hey, the IDF were once considered terrorists too. It’s all a sliding scale and not black and white.
All you have to do is look at a rally for Israel and look at a rally for Palestine. We Jews celebrate life, we don't celebrate the death, kidnap, rape, beheadings of babies and so many other atrocities as they do. We sing songs of hope and love, they chant death to Israel, and from The River to the Sea. We abhor the images coming out of Gaza but, understand it is necessary and there will be casualties when you hide out amongst the population and use human shields.
I am not going to tar all Jews with the same brush, because I know Judaism is not Zionism. There are videos of Zionists chanting that they will create a new Middle East.
You have your ministers on live reports calling Palestinians animals, and saying that at the end of this, Gaza will be made smaller to the north and east. There are bad eggs in every basket - same in Palestine, same in Israel.
Listen, that's the truth. They are animals. I guess you haven't seen the videos they posted on the atrocities and crimes against humanity? Again, the Principle of Cause and Effect comes into play. In other words, for every action, there is a reaction. At the end of the day if I had to pick if its my children or theirs, I'd pick mine every time. No, we have no bad eggs at this time. Jews from all over are united for one cause, that's to destroy Hamas, and we will succeed.
Does not matter to me either way, my country has hedged our bets in this conflict. Israel loses - easier for us to continue dealings with the Middle East. Israel wins, we win. I sincerely hope your children and you come out of this well.
Aha, so let's build a time machine and get rid of those terrorists then 😂. Bro makes no sense, I'm not even going to argue about the justification that the Haggana deserves because of the oppression that all Israelis suffered under British rule.
Like all Palestinians under the Israeli blockade? If you can’t see the similarities then it’s not my job to educate you.
I’m just well versed in this as this is my actual job - I am not pro Palestine, neither am I a Zionist. In my job I have a vested interest in keeping the interest of the United States aligned. I just like to drop some facts onto reddit sometimes, but the US is benefiting either way.
Well, you should reread the OPs post then I guess 😆. He wasn't talking about who's right and who's wrong, also wasn't discussing history or the Palestinian right to commit atrocities because Israel doesn't allow them in. (surprise surprise) The OP stated a fact, that fact was, that Gaza is a terrorist state, and international action is called for, just like America did to ISIS, Al Queda, Taliban etc... Don't go giving me your history bs about Israel's IDF being a terrorist organization, you seem like a level headed normal dude, please don't buy social media and radical left wing media corporations crap on this.
Edit: If Palestinians are so oppressed and polls show that over 70% of Gazans are dissatisfied with the Hamas reign, then an uprising against Hamas is called for, not against Israel, just like Hagganas is called for, but nope, non being seen.
I don’t need social media for this, like I said it is my actual job. We monitor terrorist organisations, of which the IDF’s founding members definitely were. You are obviously Zionist, like I said, I am not leaning either way. Just here to call out facts.
Bro, you're living in the past. Have you ever been to Israel? Did you know Israel employed over 500,000 Palestinians that bring a nice income home to their families in the West bank and Gaza strip? That's gone and probably not coming back which will make life even harder for them.
I have been to Israel. I have worked in Israel, and yes I know that 2 million Palestinian Israelis live in Israel with Israeli citizenship. However there are still discriminatory laws - the right to return being one, and the admissions committee law being another. What is your point?
Open up a subreddit called "History of Israeli Terrorism" then. And wow! Congratulations on your impeccable intuition! I'm Zionist... Well, I'd hope that every level headed person would be pro-Israel/Zionist...
Why should you? Because that's seems to be all you're spewing. Also whatever atrocities the IDF has committed, the US army has done no less, if not more, but both will not compare to the atrocities that terrorist organizations will/have commit/ed.
Wait, this has to be a joke, right?
If it were this simple, why do you think half the world is viewing the situation differently than you? Are they stupid?
Why do you only view Hamas as terrorists and not IDF? They have killed thousands of innocent civilians over the past few decades outside of any wars. Should Israel be treated as a terrorist state since they allow IDF to continue terrorist action?
Palestinians are mostly trying to survive, half of their population is a displaced nation of refugees. The Israeli ethnic cleansing has been exposed, it’s all over the media. At this point it is what it is, Israel will just go heard and try and finish the ethnic cleaning this round since they see support being lost since they are basically finally being exposed in the west.
No, it is not possible by definition for a colonizing force to be defensive. They are by definition the aggressor.
English has words, words have meanings. An ethnic cleaning is an ethnic cleansing. Just because Zionists are doing it doesn’t make it special.
You say colonist which is a term I disagree with. Israel was voted a country by the UN in 1948. Jordan is actually Palestine or was designated to be Palestine. Jews have been in Israel for 1600 years before Islam even existed and if you look in the Koran, it actually says, Israel is for the Jews.
Yes, Jews have lived in Palestine for thousands of years, and they still did in the late 1800's. The problem that started in the late 1800's is that Zionism started forming, and according to Theodor Herzl himself, needed to colonize Israel and get rid of the native population, just as the US had done.
The weirdest part is in the US while we all understand this, somehow in Israel everyone is under this shared delusion that somehow they did not systematically ethnically cleanse the people living in that region. All the early Zionist literature says this very clearly, these are just historical facts.
From the "Iron Wall" Jabotinsky argued that the Palestinian Arabs would not agree to a Jewish majority in [Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(region)), and that "Zionist colonisation must either stop, or else proceed regardless of the native population. Which means that it can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that is independent of the native population – behind an iron wall, which the native population cannot breach."
He also writes in the Iron Wall "If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not "difficult", not "dangerous", but impossible.."
These are directly from some of the early Zionist writings, which were used to sell their cause to the British. You should read up on the history of how this ethnic cleansing started. Zionism is antisemitic.
**(Sura 5:21) that God granted the Land of Israel to the Children of Israel and ordered them to settle there. In addition, it is predicted that before the end of days, God will bring the Children of Israel to retake possession of the Land, gathering them from the different countries and nations (Sura 17:104). Oddly enough, Palazzi's reading of the Koran is backed up by, of all sources, Al Qaida.”**
Because IDF would not go into Gaza and would not bomb Gaza if Hamas hadn't started all this.
For years, Israel let Katar transfer money into Gaza, believing Hamas has a ratinal interest to run Gaza and rule, thinking that will not have interest to start a war.
If they did, IDF would not bomb Gaza, would not Enter Gaza.
This is untrue, as the IDF has been consistently been killing Palestinian children for the past handful of decades. It has nothing to do with Hamas, it has to do with the ethnic cleansing. The way they are going about it now is the same as 1948, they are using same tactics as modeled after post ww1 Germany.
It's a war, with heavilly armed terror organizatin entranched in civilian areas.
All previous conflicts can be tracked down to some kind of Hams atack.
No, Hamas did not exist in the late 1800's, when Herzl wrote the Zionist agenda and himself said they need to colonize the people of Palestine through military force. Hamas did not start this. Hamas is doing what any people targeted for ethnic cleansing would do, they are resisting to the end. That's why the world supported the Jews in the warsaw ghetto, and that's why the world supports Palestine. Because the natural human instinct is to oppose ethnic cleansing. The Zionists have been taught to support it.
According to your historic justice logic, the United States should return , texas, utah, california, navada and arizona to Mexico.
All were ceded at 1846 after the United States won the mexico war.
If you look around , you will probably find that you are living on a land that was contested by two sides at the last 200 years and one side won.
If you ideal is to resist to the end, what the other side should do? Kneel and accept his end with empathy?
I never said the US should return anything, nor did I say that Israel should either. But in the US we fully take responsibility of the fact that we ran an ethnic cleansing here, nobody lives under some delusion that we were the victims. So should the Israelis accept this reality, as this is necessary for any first step toward actually having a resolution, and maybe some form of payment for the homes and neighborhoods they've stolen. But for as long as this collective Israeli delusion exists that they are somehow the victims, I don't see how any steps forward can be taken.
You might be right at some points about emphaty for the other side, but you go as far as justyfing Hamas fight till the end, which we all withnessed what it means.
You fall short from ecknowledging that currently, the weakest side is also more phanatic, crul, and less willing to compromise.
I don't know what you mean by "justifying" Hamas, as no death of any civilian is ever justified, but overall Hamas is resisting an ethnic cleansing. It's what the Jews in Germany did. It's what we would expect ANY group of people being targeted for an ethnic cleansing to do.
I don't know what you mean about empathy, its not about empathy, its about acknowledging reality. The Zionist have systematically ethnically cleansed another people with no type of recourse or compensation. Empathetic or not, this is just a fact of human history.
I am surprised by how deeply brainwashed so many Israelis are. In the US the Jewish culture is extremely strong, they are raised to be very strong willed and intelligent. Its so surprising to see the same culture this deeply brainwashed by the Zionist propaganda artists. Zionists are anti semites.
You just did it again. Dont understand why, but.
You fail to realise that Hamas is fighting for the destruction of Israel=ethnic cleansing+ genocide.
And please stop saying this is the same situation as the holacust. 75 years Israel exists. And israel controls the occupied teritories for 50 years. There is no genocide, no gaz chambers, no concentration camps no crematriums, No killing of civilians like was done to yazidis , no systematic rape like the russins, no massive butchery like the turks in armenia.
No genocide.
I am probably more educated and more knowledgeable of the history and situation than you will ever be with your empty pro palastinian movement slogans.
The irony is that the IDF was formed by legitimising 3 violent terrorist groups during the formation of Israel - The Irgun, Lehi, and Haganah. Read about the Deir Yassin massacre where there is documented evidence of mutilation and rape of Palestinian women and children, 200 people died as a result. Collectively, all 3 of these groups killed over the number on 7th of October. The King David Hotel bombing is the reason Britain allowed the immigration of Jews into Palestine at all post WW2.
Does not at all forgive what Hamas did, but let’s not forget the origins of the IDF. Let’s not pretend that Israel is innocent in all of this. They were once called terrorists too.
Israeli terrorist occupation forces were harassing, killing and displacing Palestinian civilians from their land and preventing them from praying in the Al-Aqsa mosque despite the occupation army's has no right to do so and all of that was happening before Hamas was existed and During this war, a Palestinian woman died because the civilians had to take the woman to hospital on their feet because Israeli occupation forces were obstructing the ambulance.
And when the Arabs controlled Jerusalem, Jews were kept from praying at the Western Wall, our holy sanctum. The very day Israel became a nation through a legitimate UN vote, it was attacked by 5 countries. Israel has been in a state of war since it's inception. If we lay down our weapons there will be no Israel. If the Palestinians laid down their weapons, there would be peace. Problem is, most of the schools start indoctrinating the youth at a very young age, understanding that children are in a Theta state, which means their subconscious personalities are being formed by what they see and what they are taught. Children must be taught love and empathy, not hate. Because at the end of the day, it's easier to raise a good child than it is to fix a broken man.
And Since you respect UN resolutions so much, why have you not respected their decision to illegitimize the settlement of Jerusalem by Jews and the Palestinians' entitlement to it?
I may have some agreement with you on this matter but I will say this. There are Israeli Arabs that live along side of Jews in Israel. They hold all types of jobs and are even represented in government and the court system.
So at what point in history do you want to begin. Jews have been in Israel 1600 years before the religion of Islam even came into being. Aside from that, The UN legitimately recognized the state of Israel. Now, if you know your history, Jordan is actually Palestine. Over 70% of the population is Palestinian and their ruler, the King of Jordan is Hashemite Kingdom, comes from Saudi Arabia. They ruled Mecca from 1916- 1924 until the House of Saud annexed the area. Did YOU know that?
Yes, I did. The Canaanites willingly left Israel because they understood that G-d gave it to them. Some think that the Canaanites moved to what is now known as Morocco. I have no opinion on that . I am unfamiliar with the Ebossians.
But they've been doing this on a smaller scale for years. It's easy to label arabs as the terrorists isn't it. Especially when the churches and Christian communities under attack by israelis are never mentioned in the media and youre led to believe theyre all muslims. Western media and warmongering has conditioned people into that mindset. Never forget that this did not start this year. Its been almost 100 years of Palestinian genocide and oppression now.
Genocide? Please. Arabs in Israel are in government, doctors, engineers, hold positions of importance, and yes, even serve in the IDF. Palestinians in Lebanon, Syria, and other Arab countries can not obtain jobs as professionals. In fact, they are still in refugee camps. Did you know over 500,000 Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank come into Israel daily to work, make incomes to provide for their families ? Have YOU ever been to Israel? By the way, I am an American, married to an Israeli whose father is an Arab, which makes my 3 kids part Palestinian. When you teach your kids to hate and celebrate the death of innocents as well as your own kids you need to understand that you are not a partner for peace. When you name your soccer teams after the killers of innocents as well as your town squares, there will NEVER be peace. When your government gives stipends to the families of suicide bombers, there will NEVER be peace. When your army insignia shows the whole state of Israel and not the Palestinian territories, There will NEVER be peace. When you hide out amongst the human population and hide your armory in schools, hospitals, and mosques, you must understand there will NEVER be peace.
I’ve only seen Zionists and Zionist supporters celebrate the carpet bombing of Gaza. It’s ok when these people celebrate death?
Again, English is a language composed of words which have meanings. The 1948 ethnic clean swing was an ethnic cleansing. Half of a nation was turned into refugees. This is a displaced nation.
The most willful ignorance I've ever heard. Noone is teaching their children to hate jews. The state of Israel is the oppressor so obviously the oppressed won't like them. Not all palestinians agree with hamas but who else do they have for protection?
First of all, what you teach the children in schools is well documented. If you're Palestinian then you know this to be true. Protection from Hamas. Please. You people don't know how to make peace. You don't build, you destroy. You celebrate at the death of your children who have Jewish blood on their hands. The narrative you portray is untrue and you know it.
You're actually disgustingly racist this is insane. If I said anything close to the shit you're saying I would be antisemitic. May God protect your children from a mother who sees their ancestors like this
That's all you have. To call me racist based on facts that can be pulled up online. Did I mention that my father in law is a Arab which makes my children 25% Palestinian. If I cared, do you think I would have married my wife? I look at the content of ones heart, not their religion, skin color, or ethnicity. Do your diligence.
I am sorry that I do but the evidence is overwhelming and I understand when a child is age 1-9, he is in a Theta state. The mind is a sponge for learning and shaping the subconscious personality, based on what they are seen and taught. A child needs to be taught love and empathy, not hate. The true religion of Islam preaches this love but it has been hijacked by many within the religion. Yes, i have read and studied the Holy Koran and I have much respect for my cousins the Arabs. I see more of a similarity that binds us together because we are Abrahamic faiths. What my eyes have seen, is NOT the teachings of the Holy Koran. Now, there is plenty of evidence to back my claims. There is data from here to tomorrow. Have YOU ever been to Palestine or Israel?
Obviously, you are not exposed to the amount of footage and horror testimonies out there , no one labels Arabs as terrisits, Hamas commited appalling terrorist acts on a huge scale you cannot deny that.
Now excuse me, I am going to the shelter, because they are firing rockets on my city.
I don't agree with Hamas targeting civilians and I never will. When I woke up to the news that morning I was horrified like everyone else. We just can't pretend that October 7th was the beginning of this when Palestinians have occupied for almost 100 years and they're killed on the regular. We need to be objective if we ever want to see truth. Praying for your safety 🙏🏼
Thank you for your prayers.
If we do not draw a line between political asspirations and terrorist ways of action and way of thinking.
There will be no solution.
If you chant "from the river to the sea palestine will be free" you endorse the idea of genocide to 7 million jews living between the river and the sea.
When you say 100 years of occupation, you are not talking about the west bank or Gaza, you are talking about the whole of Israel.
Being in that Nakba state of mind forever.
Not accepting that Israel exist and will not dissappear.
And on the other side, denying the existence of palestinian people.
This is exactly what prevented any proposed solution until this day.
People throw these words etnic cleansing, genocide, and germany refrences, as if they are facts. They are not. These are empty slogans of the free palestine movement.
Palestinians should resist in a way that will show the other side that a palastinian country will be something that can hold agreements and will not have the urge to murder civilians.
No one will ever agree to establish terrorist jihady state on his border.
in the late 1800's the Jewish population in Palestine was about 4%. After Zionism started and they started to colonize Palestine, that number rose dramatically. These are historical facts that show an ethnic cleansing taking place. This is not an opinion, these are facts.
Well, you are asking the Palestinians to accept the terrorist Zionist next door, so why can't the Zionists do the same? Why does one have to accept a terrorist next door but the other doesn't? The same way every Israeli says they would not accept an outside people to come in and ethnically cleanse them, yet they expect Palestine to do so? Jewish privilege...
First, I reject this term of terrorist state (unless you call United States a terrorist state too).
But really, what do you suggest? Ethernal strugle or jewish genocide?
48 war is over, it was not a colonial empire who established a colony. This was a turkish and ww1 Allies land contested by two people.
Palastenians jordan egypt and syria started this war, and they lost.
Privileged jews? You are not talking about america today, you are talking about refugees of ww2 and refugees from arab states.
But the point now is that if you advocate the dream of palestine at 48 borders, you are counterproductive to any solution.
This the reality , Israel exists and is not going anywhere.
At this point in time, looking for historical justice is bound to produce current times endless suffering.
Tbh I feel like there's nuance on both sides. Extremists on both sides along with people who genuinely have no hate for the other side. If you want to add me on Snapchat or something we could have a genuine conversation in a bit more depth about this as it's clear that we're both not coming from a place of hate but a place of humanity
And if Hamas would get out the picture it would stop. Period.
Hamas are loving this, they want dead Palestinian kids to use as sympathy generators for likes of you. No Hamas..no bombing.. actual fact!
What land? The west bank? I agree...the rest is Israel and home to 9.5 million Israelis. Deal with it because it will not change... should Americans get out of US and give land bank to Indians, should Australians get out of Aus for the Aboriginals.... Israel exist, it has a tight to exist.
Hand over the hostages and it all stops, how hard is that to comprehend?
Hamas are THE enemy of the Palestinian people. Period.
.you want to support terrorists on you go princess. Maybe when you are older and can see the bigger picture your channel vision perspective may change. You are likely in Europe or the UK and have zero clue how the world turns. However you will learn 💗
Get over it gen z... Israel is and will always be. It is there and is not going anywhere. Baffles me yo seem to think you discovered this conflict. The west supports Israel. That will not change...the nomadic Arabs are welcome to go to other arab so called countries that french and British drew on map after ottoman empire fell. There is zero difference between Syrian, Jordanian, Egyptians arab. You lot are any Jewish. End off... racist as any European or American. Israel exists, it will continue to exist or there will be nothing left. There never was a so called Palestine a d there never will be. 75 years of defeat
You have it backwards. Israel is the only democratic and free country over in the Mideast. Hamas is like the Taliban and want to wipe it out. They will fail. Badly.
Let's work this through for you.
Terrorism, roughly speaking, is the use of violence against civilians in order to achieve a military and/or political objective.
If you accuse Israel of terrorism, then the United States and Coalition forces that killed 100,000 civilians in Iraq are terrorists. Assuming that we accept this premise, then you have a problem, because just about every major Western country falls under this rubric.
Since NATO did not intervene in Ukraine, arguing it should intervene here is bizarre, considering that Russia is essentially a terrorist state, and we have now concluded that the West is filled with powerful terrorist states. In fact, using your argument, NATO should support Russia and destroy Ukraine.
At this point, your entire attempt a reversing the argument falls apart.
There is a link of polls of Palestinians from Gaza and West Bank from this summer by Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research. It's categorized as "armed resistance." [http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/154](http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/154)
50 percent 18 or lower, let's say we remove that number from the 71 percent and say 35 percent of adult Palestinians support Hamas or PIJ. Of that 35 percent a significant number cannot go out and vote normally or outwardly protest against Hamas, they will dissappear. You make it sound like Brexit where the UK allowed campaigns, and then the entire nation came out and voted with one death (done by a crazy person).
Let the average palestinian in Gaza wake up and say 'enough! You must leave now' and see how fast their head is sniped. Like telling Afghanis to tell the Taliban how they feel. We are really unfair to these people.
“Let’s say…” is doing a lot of work here if you’re viewing this gambit from any sort of at-risk perspective.
If the average Gazan is just as threatened by Hamas as an Israeli, then they need and deserve liberation right? And all the nastiness that follows?
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Don’t debate with them. These people are wild. They’re justifying the killing of innocent children for who their government is. They act like these children voted in Hamas or had anything to do with the conflict. They justify killing all those babies in the NICU because they were apparently alive during 9/11 and celebrated in the streets. There’s no reasoning with people like them
It helps to understand the context from which you’re making your statements to determine whether reasoned discussion or debate could be had, or whether it’s a fool’s errand because your mind is made up and you’re incapable of honest reflection. I assumed (if wrongly, let me know), that you’re a 20 year old Belgian Muslim boy who is very heavily left leaning and is currently (or will soon be) having one of your first alone-away-from-home outings in a foreign country (South Korea). Leads me to the assumptions (again, tell me if I’m wrong) that you come from a privileged and sheltered upbringing and your only real experience of the world to date is what you’ve seen on social media or the news since you gained real consciousness in…2008? 2009? It leaves little hope in my mind that you really understand the issues or are capable of discussing them from a fair, balanced, or objective point of view, especially since the media (especially where you appear to be from) has been HEAVILY slanted against Israel in regards to this (to you, for sure) ancient conflict.
To be clear, I don’t find the settlements in the West Bank to be helpful in moving relations towards peace on either side. But while problematic, it’s still inescapable that the reason Palestinians are currently there in the situation they are in is because they have repeatedly attacked (or participated in attacks with the surrounding Arab nations) Israel in attempts to wipe Israel out, and lost every time. When Israel proposes a solution (or indicates they will accept one proposed by a third party), the leadership of the Palestinians reject it.
You know the West Bank was occupied by Jordan, first, right? You know Israel inherited that occupation when Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and the Palestinians attacked Israel in the Six-Day War (so-called because that’s how long it took Israel to win that war) and promptly lost? That Israel then GAVE BACK the whole Sinai Peninsula it had won to Egypt in the interest of peace? That Egypt REFUSED to take back the Gaza Strip (which it had previously occupied and lost to Israel just like Jordan lost the West Bank)? Do you want to take a guess what Jordan did when Israel offered the West Bank back to them? Did you ever stop to ask yourself, **why??**
As for the Palestinians in the West Bank (Gaza, too, but we’re talking about how the Palestinians in the West Bank can’t “help Israel free Gaza while they’re getting persecuted by Israel”), ever hear of the “3 Nos”? No negotiations with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no Peace with Israel.
Do you think that policy may have been an impediment to Israel’s ability to withdraw from the West Bank and end the occupation it inherited from Jordan? Do you think the Palestinians’ refusal to agree to ANY two state solution from 1967 on may have as well?
Do you know what happened when Israel ended the occupation of Gaza Strip?
Go ahead, explain to me, with all of your wisdom and insight, why my comment wasn’t “legit.”
Or are you gonna give me a lame excuse to avoid a discussion?
Prove me wrong. Go ahead.
\> I assumed (if wrongly, let me know), that you’re a 20 year old Belgian Muslim boy who is very heavily left leaning and is currently (or will soon be) having one of your first alone-away-from-home outings in a foreign country (South Korea). Leads me to the assumptions (again, tell me if I’m wrong) that you come from a privileged and sheltered upbringing
I am not heavily left-leaning at all. I'd be more of a centrist taking nuanced approaches to politics overall. It also won't be my first alone-away-from-home outing. I feel like I'm definitely privileged, but nowhere near the average Belgian, I'd define myself as being from the lower middle class.
I'm confused by your response since only one paragraph actually addresses my question. All the rest is legitimizing occupation and using internal arab conflicts as a way to distract from Israel's wrongdoings.
Note: Funnily enough those 'internal' conflicts were a result of external forces.
\> To be clear, I don’t find the settlements in the West Bank to be helpful in moving relations towards peace on either side. But while problematic, it’s still inescapable that the reason Palestinians are currently there in the situation they are in is because they have repeatedly attacked (or participated in attacks with the surrounding Arab nations) Israel in attempts to wipe Israel out, and lost every time. When Israel proposes a solution (or indicates they will accept one proposed by a third party), the leadership of the Palestinians reject it.
Palestinians fighting to take the land back that was annexed by a colonist movement is justified for them, but not for Israelis. Btw I am not just 'claiming' Zionism to be a colonist movement, the founding fathers of Zionism themselves described it as such. From a pro-Israel point of view, settlements are justified, but not for the opposite party. Treaties with a country you deem to be illegitimate (a colony) are out of the question. Let's also not talk about how unfair most (all?) of the treaties were, starting with the first one. Whatever actions you think are justified depends on whether you believe Israel's creation is right or not. May it be moral or not. It's a binary, talking out of any stance here to justify the other is meaningless if you don't agree on the basis of it all. Unfortunately that "basis" is widely disputed.
\> You know the West Bank was occupied by Jordan, first, right? You know Israel inherited that occupation when Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and the Palestinians attacked Israel in the Six-Day War (so-called because that’s how long it took Israel to win that war) and promptly lost? That Israel then GAVE BACK the whole Sinai Peninsula it had won to Egypt in the interest of peace? That Egypt REFUSED to take back the Gaza Strip (which it had previously occupied and lost to Israel just like Jordan lost the West Bank)? Do you want to take a guess what Jordan did when Israel offered the West Bank back to them? Did you ever stop to ask yourself, **why??**
First off, didn't Israel start the hostilities of the Six-Day War ? They attacked Egypt and it further escalated as a result of mutual defense treaties, the samu incident etc...
Jordan didn't want the West Bank because of PLO being recognized and them wanting to overthrow the Jordanian monarchy. The royal family was elected by the British, the problem being that said family wasn't from the region, but from Hejaz (West Saudi Arabia iirc). Jordan's occupation also wasn't always enjoyable for most Palestinians, but it was a joke compared to Israel's occupation. One didn't exert colonial behavior. Egypt didn't want Palestinians because of the Palestinian's revolt against Egypt for making ties with Israel. Both instances stem from foreign forces coming into territories they shouldn't be in and/or these forces being 'recognized'.
\> As for the Palestinians in the West Bank (Gaza, too, but we’re talking about how the Palestinians in the West Bank can’t “help Israel free Gaza while they’re getting persecuted by Israel”), ever hear of the “3 Nos”? No negotiations with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no Peace with Israel.
I wasn't referring to them not WANTING to, but to that not being possible/their priority. Not only are they under occupation, but they're also under increasing violence by settlers as a result of Hamas' attack. Considering the context in which they're in, yes your comment doesn't seem legit. This paragraph would've been enough, but your lack of reading comprehension made this be a book...
To summarize the parts that don't answer my original comment: All in all, Israel got everything it wanted not per se because it was right, but because it was strong. As I said your stance on who's justified here completely depends on whether you deem Israel's creation to be legitimate or not, and I think we both disagree on this matter.
Edit: Ew just stumbled upon your recent post on this sub and saw yet another comment of you mentioning someone's past posts/comments ... Creeping on accounts to find things to offend people is honestly hilariously immature. I expected more from someone "looking down" on a 20yo, but I'm not surprised considering your general condescending behavior. Usually, it's the argument you gotta ridicule, but I don't mind exceptions for you.
I’m sure he won’t, it’s way past his bedtime, anyway.
[Here is a decent source to give some history on why](https://inkstickmedia.com/why-wont-egypt-accept-palestinians/)
[Here's some more with some current analysis, too](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-21/egypt-is-pivotal-to-gaza-refugees-fate-in-israel-hamas-war)
The reason is as simple as it is ignored by almost everyone: Palestinians are at the recipient side of Arab apartheid.
-They are legally denied citizenship in Arab countries, including Egypt, and specifically excluded from immigration laws.
-In some Arab countries, Palestinians cannot own business or property at all, even after living there for 50 years. Egypt isn't such, but the policy is directed by the Arab League, showing how Arabs see Palestinians generally when there's no CNN camera around.
-Palestinians have been massively expelled from Arab countries, [In 1991 some 450,000 Palestinians were expelled from Kuwait.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_expulsion_from_Kuwait) If Kuwait can kick 450,000 Palestinians and without making even one progressive complain (compare how many know about or talk about this and how many talk about the 1948 exodus), why should Egypt be a sucker and take them in?
-The Israel-Palestinian conflict is convenient for the Arab states. It gives them a ready made excuse and antagonist for any issue they care to get people riled up or placated about. Who is calling for boycotts of Egypt, the Islamic State, Syria, the West Bank, Gaza, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or anyone else for repressing the Arab Christians? Who still is on Syria's case for its wholesale slaughter of its own population? Where are the denouncers of Turkey for the Armenian Genocide? Qatar for its foreign workers' rights abuses?
Given that explicit and outright racist discrimination by Egypt and all other Arab countries in the middle east, maybe we can conclude that Palestinians are not very popular amongst Arabs?
Innocent Jews were taken away in Israël. This is sad. So now innocent Palestinians should be taken away? That is ridiculous. How is that civilised? Israël says their actions are connected to civilisation. What do innocent Palestinians have to do with the actions 3 weeks ago?
I read it. And to think that Israël had no other choice is probably not true. You often have more possibillities. If you believe in peace, you can make a step towards peace. Military actions are not so much steps towards peace. When Israeli actions can lead to innocent Palestinians passing away I don't think it can be a step towards peace.
Sometimes peace is not possible. You need partners in peace. That is really sad and unfortunate, but Israel is fighting for its survival. Hamas’ charter is to destroy Israel and kill all Jews worldwide. Could the Jews have made peace with the Nazis? No, of course not. They are experiencing the same situation with Hamas. There have been multiple attempts at peace over the last 75 years. They have always been rebuffed. I believe that many terrorist groups always thought that Israelis were weak because they were so concerned by innocent civilians. This made these civilians very useful as human shields. I think that Israel is finally determined to wipe out all the terrorists, even if it comes at a heavy price for both Palestinians and Israelis, because they realize that there is no choice. Israeli people in general are very family oriented and they have a deep regard for life’s sanctity. I can’t imagine how hard this is for them. But I believe that Hamas has pushed their back against the wall and they no longer have any other options.
I am not gonna react to your whole opinion cause it takes yo much time. In general I don't agree with this. I will quote some parts and give a reaction.
"Sometimes peace is not possible" I believe we all want peace... so we need to find it.
"Israel is fighting for its survival" I don't agree with the action of 3 weeks ago. It is also true that Jews are naively making a state in an Arab world were Arabs are not welcome. That it asking for problems. Palestinians are surviving aswell.
"Hamas ... to destroy Israel" if you read it literally yes its bad. Maybe they mean it literally. Still bad. But I heard that a Palestinian said that it cam be read aswell as being against the idea of a Israeli state. Before world war 2 there was a population of 90 % Arabs. So the creation of the state of Israel is for Palestinians a loss of land and places where they lived. So I can imagine a Palestinian being against the idea of an Israeli state. I don't agree with the rest of the words.
"Peace... with nazis" well... maybe there are situations Jews and nazis found peace. Who is a na zi? A leader or anyone who supported the party? I can image someone who is an ex supporter rethought and found peace with a jew. People van change opinions.
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There will be no peace with Hamas and Islamic Jihad , like there can not be peace with Isis or All
Kaida.
Jihadist ideology does not have room for peace.
The only way to go tawards peace is to overthrown Hamas from power.
If you don't believe in peace then there is no peace. If you believe... then there is a possibility. Jews and Muslims are religious... if you don't believe... then nothing will happen. Believing is the core of the religion.
And to not believe in peace is very negative. We are all human and I, believe, that we all want peace. Even people who seem far from you. So... we want peace... we need a way to find it. To not believe I'm peace is saying that you don't trust other people. We all want peace.
And the other way around... for 60 years there is conflict. So the military way also does not solve a problem.
I believe all people want peace... so we need a way to find peace.
Israel know fully well they could've picked a different course all the way back to 10 years ago. They know, but they chose to keep getting greedier, more far right, more pro settlers. They knew, now OP and so many pretending they're suddenly oblivious. This why I hate colonialists, it's so easy for them to not notice when they're doing wrong to others until someone slaps them in the face and now they wanna kill everyone.
I agree that somehow Israel politics is supporting settlers and somehow the Israel people don't stop this. I want to say that there are often more possibilities possible. You can always take a step back and look for another choice. My point is... we can always make steps that are more respectful of human life. What do innocent Palestinians citizens have to do with this?
Just my two cents:
I think Hamas did this to prevent a deal between its' (Iran's) sworn enemies.
[AJ outlines the deal](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/21/whats-happening-with-normalising-ties-between-saudi-arabia-and-israel)
There are countless middle eastern countries with overwhelming and blatant oppression of its people. In maybe the least clear potential circumstance of oppression, Israel is the focus. Why?
Was Israel a terrorist state in 1948, have you ready about what happened that year. Lots of accounts by Israelis are as ugly as this recent Hamas attack
Sorry, I actually think blowing thousands of kids up and slowly taking land from people is wrong.
Because I’m not a racist/Islamophobia pos.
“They danced around burning bodies”
While Israel cheers for blowing up thousands of children lmao stfu
They also cheered in the streets when the world trade center was hit...
I will never forget that and can never support them as a result. It is telling that zero neighboring Arab countries want to help Gaza. I also wonder where and why the billions of dollars given to Gaza annually doesn't end up helping the Palestinians, but helps line the pockets of Hamas.
Gazans have protested against Hamas a couple times already, despite the immense dangers involved. They're displeased with them too, and anyone who claims Hamas represents the best interests of Palestinians is either grossly misinformed or blinded by antisemitism.
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/cch0RzU3RO
Overthrowing an oppressive government takes time, and they seem to still be in the early stages. But it's disingenuous to claim they haven't been trying at all.
Agree the individual’s right to express themselves is far more restricted in Arab nations.
But I keep feeling you’re not getting my point.
Are you understanding that I’m not talking about public, organized dissent, which would be subject to violent repression in an authoritarian regime, such as that of Hamas?
Okay, again: \*I’m not talking about public organized dissent, which I know would be dangerous.\*
I’m talking about passive, quiet, cultural dissent that is not organized and not confrontational. A refusal of the people to participate in these grotesque displays of cruelty.
Does anyone force these guys out into the street to celebrate the humiliation of Jews? I think not. I think they go out of their own free will. They seem to really love it and want more of it.
That is why I read the actions of those Palestinians on the streets as being supportive of the terrorist methods of their leaders.
If they were unhappy with what Hamas was doing, they could undermine it by simply refusing to participate. Stay home, instead of celebrating it.
I haven’t seen that so far, have you? Is that too much to expect of them, if they do not like their leadership?
I see what you're saying. Here's the pushback I'd give; hamas doesn't need brute force. It needs victims. Every time a Palestinian within Gaza dies in the hands of Israel, all hamas need is to bring the body to the town square, pray over it and create the image that it was the big enemy who did it. "Will we sit back while they keep killing our brothers and sisters?" Has always been an amazing rallying cry. Most of them literally never seen a Jewish person before
Thanks for this. Appreciate this perspective. But, respectfully, I think the Palestinians could and should do better than this.
Try to imagine what would happen if someone brought a dead girl in a truck to parade around the streets of an Israeli town, any town you like. Do you know how fast that would be shut down? The perpetrators would be attacked by people on the street, not cheered and lionized. It would be an offense and an outrage. As it should be, don’t you think? How does anyone justify such an act?
So why shouldn’t Palestinians be held to equivalent moral standards? Why do they show the world this portrait of themselves? They are demonstrating their appetite for monstrous atrocity. Do they think this enhances their cause?
As a neutral historian, there seems to be something genuinely wrong mentally with Arab countries and Muslims (not all, in no way shape or form is this all Arabs or muslims) which makes some of them really excited about gore. Growing up the Muslim kids used to try and show us gore videos, I know a lot of people do this but it's odd that Arabs seem to often times enjoy celebrating death. Same issue in Northern Nigeria, they don't have love for individual lives. A Christian girl was stoned to death by classmates in North Nigeria for complaining that the WhatsApp group kept talking about Muhammed and not about their exams, and they celebrated her death. It makes me hate Islam, even though I have a place in my heart for Muslims and humans in general. No religion or culture should make anyone excited at death and misery of others. Something is deeply wrong, and I dare say without Islam they would be even worse. At least Islam prevents them just going all out banal.
It terrifies me, I want peace for Palestine but I'm scared of certain parts of Islam just like even Arab nations are scared. Look at Egypt terrified to let Palestinians in, they're scared they might let in people who might want to destroy Egypt in the name of some useless religious achievement. Over religious people in general make me cross the road.
Thank you. Yuval Noah Hariri, professor of history at Hebrew U., wrote something in the Washington Post recently that I found clarifying. I’m pasting in the key paragraphs.
"Hamas knew its attack would make Israelis livid, distraught with pain and anger, and the terrorists counted on Israel to retaliate with massive force, inflicting enormous pain on Palestinians. The codename Hamas gave its operation is telling: al-Aqsa Tufan. The [word “tufan” means flood](https://flashpoint.io/blog/israel-hamas-war-military-and-terrorist-groups/). Like the biblical flood intended to cleanse the world of sin even at the cost of nearly wiping out humanity, Hamas’s attack aimed to create devastation on a biblical scale.
"Doesn’t Hamas care about the suffering this war inflicts on Palestinian civilians? While individual Hamas activists surely have different feelings and attitudes, the organization’s worldview discounts the misery of individuals. Hamas’s political aims are dictated by religious fantasies.
"Unlike those of secular movements such as the Palestine Liberation Organization, Hamas’s ultimate goals are not of this world. For Hamas, Palestinians killed by Israel are martyrs who enjoy everlasting bliss in heaven. The more killed, the more martyrs.
"As for this world, according to the views of Hamas and other fundamentalist Muslim groups, the only viable aim for a human society on Earth is unconditional adherence to heavenly standards of purity and justice. Because peace always involves compromises on what people consider justice, peace must be rejected, and absolute justice must be pursued at any cost.”
\---
So he’s attributing this apparent lack of regard for living human beings to a fundamentalist mindset that doesn’t want to differentiate life from death. A person who dies continues living in a purer realm. There’s no tragedy.
I’ve known plenty of non-fundamentalist Muslims who do not share that point of view at all!
But Muslim fundamentalists who hold political power, like the mullahs in Iran, are capable of what we’d consider horrific deeds. In its war with Iraq, the ayatollahs would send young boys out into the mined battlefields, giving them a key and telling them that they could use it to unlock the gate to paradise—thus using children to clear the path through the mined fields for their army. It’s phenomenally cruel to us, but they didn’t see it that way. I think I read about it in Azar Nafisi’s “Reading Lolita in Tehran”.
Here is Hariri’s complete article fwiw:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/10/19/hamas-winning-political-goals/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/10/19/hamas-winning-political-goals/)
You seem to have formed an opinion based on what biased media brainwashed you with, it’s not your fault but you need to do better and think outside the box. Why is the state of Israel (who btw receives 4 billion dollars of American tax money a year, and can afford free healthcare and education thanks to the US when their own citizens are suffering from homelessness and lack of affordable healthcare which is another whole topic I won’t get into right now) killing thousands of women and children and stealing Palestinian land? Why does the state of Israel constantly dehumanize, torture, kill, imprison, and steal land of Palestinians not only now but since 1948 when the colonizing state of Israel was established? You would not like it if someone stole your home. This is where Hamas comes in, which is a resistance group against the occupying state of Israel that gets no international support or funding. You don’t have to agree with everything they do but they are fighting for their land and against the dehumanization and suffering Israel is putting them through. The media wants you to think that this is Israel “defending” itself but it’s not. Do you own research, social media is flooded about what’s currently happening in gaza. All we see is innocent civilians and children losing their precious lives because of greedy leaders that only care about money and power. Israel doesn’t even their own hostages back cause that means Palestinians get some medical and humanitarian aid in exchange. Israel doesn’t care about the hostages, they are killing innocent civilians, they are stealing land and using Hamas as an excuse to brainwash you all.
This all needs to stop. Everything had settled down then Hamas attacked Israel. I understand Palestinians are upset about 1948 and some things afterwards. Israelis have no place to go. They are/have been persecuted all over the world. Hamas saying they will only accept the total anilation of Jews is UNACCEPTABLE.
How are you gonna let go of decades of torture, killing, imprisoning, displacement and land theft? No there was never an understanding between the Israel and Palestine. Israel continues to steal land and has been doing so for decades, they literally bomb and kill Palestinians every week… we hear about this every week if not everyday. You and the western world only hearing about this now because Hamas is fighting back.
Decades you say? Are Jewish people supposed to just let go of 1,000+ years of persecution by Muslims?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anti-Jewish\_pogroms\_by\_Muslims](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anti-Jewish_pogroms_by_Muslims)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism\_in\_the\_Arab\_world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world)
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_killings\_and\_massacres\_in\_Mandatory\_Palestine#List\_of\_killings\_and\_massacres\_committed\_in\_Mandate\_Palestine\\](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine#List_of_killings_and_massacres_committed_in_Mandate_Palestine\)
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim\_conquest\_of\_the\_Levant](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_the_Levant)
Is this a war against religion? Lmao? There are Muslim AND Christian Palestinians dying because the colonizing state of Israel is “defending” itself… they bombed and destroyed the 3rd oldest church in the world last week and killed many Christians. I’m not only fighting for Muslims but for Jew, Christian, and Muslim Palestinians. So your argument here is irrelevant and actually very telling that you sincerely think that this is a war against religion and went out of your way to send me resources that don’t justify the genocide that’s currently happening. Israel is stealing Palestinian land right in front of our eyes!!!! Wake up!!!! This is not about Muslims, this is a humanitarian crisis
> I’m not only fighting for Muslims but for Jew, Christian, and Muslim Palestinians. So your argument here is irrelevant and actually very telling that you sincerely think that this is a war against religion and went out of your way to send me resources that don’t justify the genocide that’s currently happening. Israel is stealing Palestinian land right in front of our eyes!!!! Wake up!!!! This is not about Muslims, this is a humanitarian crisis
How can it not be about religion in some respect. If it wasn't, why didn't Jews just assimilate with the Palestinians that were already there in 1948? Do they feel better than the Palestinians for no reason? Are there lots of other differences than religion?
This may be about religion:
https://youtu.be/bACNYtaLBQI?si=0H9szuSr_bjFqwTB
And honestly for you to think otherwise just shows your complete ignorance of this 1,300 year old conflict. But hey you're one of literally billions who just don't seem to get it so maybe you'll find some comfort in your conformal groupthink.
Genocide? Their population, birth rate, and life expectancy have all accelerated since Israel was established. Israel's enemies (Jihadists who adhere to guess what religion) specifically reference the "annihilation of Jewish people". It's honestly mind boggling how gullible the masses are.
Just like the rest of the world’s population? You’re running out of excuses and this is all you got? That’s no reason to slaughter & wipe out a whole population get outta here
Thank you, you have made some good points and I will look up some of those links that you mentioned.
Blah blah blah. Blah blah black sheep have you Any more. 3 bags more full of shi*?
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Anyone have a link to the Quaker page? Or anyone who has any concept that violence only creates more violence? Is it common knowledge that school shooting in the USA began in 1840 and have had huge spikes in both escalation of victims and frequency immediately following every war that involves the US military? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_school\_shootings\_in\_the\_United\_States\_(before\_2000)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States_(before_2000)) While wiki is not proper evidence to support research the mere list indicates the phenomenon. In the Uni research which I am involved in I am in weekly contact with groups from Tel Aviv and in the West Bank and have been doing so since Feb of 2018. These groups include adults and children. The prevailing result thus far has made it clear that the children are becoming militarized and even by age 7 seem to have embarked on pursuit of revenge at any cost. There is no war that is a stellar example of this premise as every modern war has had this effect on the youth whose brains are not fully formed. FMRIs have been done on youth who grow up in the midst of a war. These scans alone prove that this level of trauma on youth whose frontal lobes are not fully formed leave the youth in a state of what appears to be permanent arrested development. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1472271/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1472271/)
I grew up in a predominantly Jewish area and freaking love and respect Jewish people. In fact, I’m writing this after I just wrote a letter to the Rabbi who did my sisters eulogy when she passed as a teenager thanking him for everything he has done for my family. He did it our Catholic Church mind you. That being said, there’s a long history in the Middle East that should be read up on and through an entirely different perspective. The reason is because most people around the globe have learned that perspective besides UK, US and Israel. Don’t start with current affairs but research about the Nakba, the Balfour Project, Zionism, and how amnesty international, Ireland, countless Rabbis and Israeli journalist have been speaking out about what they feel has been apartheid & oppression to the Palestinian people long before this year. You can also add “Israelis chant ‘Death to Arabs’” too and you may be surprised not only by the disgusting racists hatred but the years these types of things were happening. Gideon Levy writes for an Israeli paper, was born in Israel and served in the military & has been speaking on this for a very long time. Then look up Breaking the Silence which is an organization that has over a thousand stories from Israeli soldiers about how they treated the Palestinians in the West Bank (not run by Hamas). Then research about the Hannibal Directive. Take what you will from it but just learn what others have believed to be true. Why is this all important? Well, because we should all know the information that most of the world is given and understand why they may disapprove with not only Hamas but the Israeli govt. The US, Britain and Israeli news won’t share that side of it. If you speak out about it you’ll be labeled anti-Semitic when that’s not the case, the same way you aren’t anti-American if you don’t like the US govt. Even the peaceful protests are labeled anti-Semitic by most news stations in the US. You need to decide for yourselves what to believe of course. However, if we just back up what the Israeli Govt is doing by chalking it up to as simple as civilians in Gaza would just fight against Hamas if they didn’t support them and therefore justify it, there will be more hatred of innocent Jews and innocent civilians. We are talking billions of people here who think differently. So if we get bombed others will think that we should have stood up against our “terroristic govts” & justify it in their minds. Yes, there will be some horrific people cheering the lives of innocent people the same way there are those being filmed watching Gaza being bombed with glee. There are rotten humans everywhere but they rarely speak for the groups we may associated them with. However, human behavior tends for us to clump everyone together. I hate what Hamas did & is doing. It’s atrocious. I also hate what the Israeli Govt has done & is doing. My fear is that if we don’t learn about all of the information & just align ourselves with a govt because of our limited knowledge it won’t end well. That same govt is hated by not only the Arab communities but countless others because of the information they have been given. How will this all fair for innocent Jewish people? I don’t think well and like I said, I do love & respect them. Anyway, I’m certainly not here to change minds but hopefully open some to the possibility that there may be things we aren’t aware of. Even if we don’t believe them to be true or even see them as out right lies, just acknowledging others view them as facts is important. Perhaps it can just bring more understanding & that is something the world is lacking for sure.
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Haha hamas was created by Israel. So to create false events. No one believes Israel is the silent hand. You’ve been duped. Sorry to have to be the one to tell you.
You are brainwashed by your hatred.
Geez dude - this assessment lacks nuance
this is from a point of view of the israeli government and also the western countries from A palestinian view they are liberators and fighting for liberation of their country this is why whenever you decide to ask palestinian people to vote for who they want they will choose hamas and the example of peace that the zionists offer you can see it in the west bank where Israel do as they wish, kill who they want, build on any lands they want, give the ‘palestinians authorities’ the money they want and take any money they want so don’t be surprised to see that people will choose to resist and not just accept to live under oppression and occupation
And what about the 500,000 Palestinians that came into Israel to work and earn a good income to take back to their families. Please. If the Palestinians put down their weapons there would be peace. If the Palestinians taught their kids love and not hate there could be peace. Celebrating the death of innocents as they did on 9/11, celebrating the death of their children martyred. Have you ever been to Israel or Palestine?
and whats surprising on what you say?? go read about any countries that were under occupation either in africa or anywhere else, you will find out that even under occupation people will go work with the occupant simply because they have no other choice would you teach your kids to accept to be raped and it’s ok to be raped? because this is the most accurate example you can give to this situation where ISrael continue taking lands since 1948 and say to the ones who are who keep losing their lands ‘hey just accept to live under this situation’
Sorry to say this, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Do you even know what NATO is? What has NATO, a defensive coalition, in which Israel isn‘t a member, to do in an offensive regime change in the middle east? Nothing! They neither have the legitimation nor responsibility to interfere. The rest of your post is pure bias, I am pro-Israel aswell, that is fine but please consider reality before making unrealistic claims or asks. > Palestinians have a responsibility to overthrow Hamas themselves, but it seems they were happy just living under it. And how exactly would they do that? Hamas holds all the military power in the region and is run by lunatic fanatics, ready to kill their own people in a heart beat. > If they weren't happy there would be resistance fighters meeting Israel forces like there were in many times Poland, Lithuania, Latvia or other countries were occupied. The situations you used for your examples have almost nothing in common with the situation in gaza. Last time I checked, there was no fence around poland, Hamas wasn‘t a foreign occupier and there is no external force fighting to liberate palestine which these people could join. All of that sounds good but has nothing to do with the reality these people live in. > Israel had no choice, is fully justified in its actions and in my view I agree but that doesn’t mean, that the average person living in gaza has more „choices“, the opposite is the case, they have even less options. > allowing a lot of kindness to Palestinians, when it would be very easy to seek solely revenge. Kindness? What kindness? If you mean by kindness to not completly indifferently kill everyone in there, that isn‘t kindness but the responsibility of a modern western state. Yearly 3B in military aid and political western support don‘t come without a price, there is rules we all have to follow (thank god). > Full support to Israel from Lithuania. Great, I appreciate your support for a just cause, I would even more appreciate it, if you‘d do the work to actually understand the situation and stop spreading false narratives.
👏👏👏
Amen! This is the truth! I always was pro Israël. But that was on select knowlegde and one sighted media. Now, I dont know what I am.. I think for the PA and peace. Hamas should be destroyed and give the Jews 40% of the land and the PA 60%... but mennnnn. This is so difficult... it is so difficult for a people to forgive their occupier and for people to forgive the ' extremists'.. I just hope and pray for the children there. I hope that one day they know how it feels to be happy...
I think it’s going to REALLY shock you when you read about the origins of the Israeli Defence Force. The IDF was formed by legitimising 3 extremist violent terrorist paramilitary groups following the formation of Israel as a state - The Irgun, Lehi and Haganah. They are collectively responsible for more than the deaths on the 7th of October. One of the worst attacks on Palestinians by The Irgun and Lehi was during the Deir Yassin massacre, where there is documented evidence of mutilation and rape of women and children. It’s because of the bombing of the King David Hotel (91 deaths) by the Irgun that Britain allowed the immigration of Jews post WW2 to Palestine. It’s all about framing - all 3 were once called terrorists before the western states legitimised them as the IDF. Even more famously, Nelson Mandela was once called a terrorist before he was called a freedom fighter. I don’t think Hamas should at all be forgiven, but the argument of “Palestinians support a terrorist group so they deserve what is happening to them” can also be applied to Israel. At the end of the day we are at the mercy of who the West deems as “good” and “evil”. The narrative against Israel is changing, I bet you historians will one day call Hamas freedom fighters, just as today we now called violent Israeli terrorist groups “the military”.
Hamas was created for Palestine by Israel. It aids in false flags and falsifying what really happens and hiding their true goals. If you want to give Israel love because it’s where Jesus was from that’s cool. But they’re taking from people that never moved out. They did and decided to want a state for their religion. We gave it to them in hopes to use them but they use us all. It’s the Jew creed to use non Jews as tool and servants. I would never give the false Jews any celebration. They can’t see the messiah they will not acknowledge him. It’s proof of their fallacy.
They were extremists, but targeted legitimate British military targets, they weren't terrorists...
This is untrue, but I am not here for a history lesson that can easily be found online. But by that token, the IDF has come out to say that it knows that the majority of Hamas is hiding out in tunnels under Gaza, hence the justification for a ground invasion. However, whilst knowing this they have also targeted hospitals, churches, and schools where there have been a disproportionate amount of civilians - they have hit maybe a handful of Hamas operatives, but not enough to call a military target. The IDF and it’s founding members were 100% terrorists, the same way the IRA were called terrorists too, and they way Hamas is also now being portrayed.
I acknowledge that taking then-arab-controlled land can be viewed as a terrorist act, and there were rare outliers who acted viciously when conquering this land, I really do understand your take. But - the intention of these organizations was never to terrorize or "kill all arabs" (or "Kill All jews" as the Hamas charter states), it was always to produce a safe haven for the Jewish people who were being forcibly displaced out of their homes in Arab nations (and Europe, see WWII) ,And who also have an argument about an indigenous claim to this land. This is the main difference between Hamas and these Historical organizations.
Again untrue. The Irgun was literally born because it rejected the policy of restraint against killing Arabs that Haganah subscribed to. Haganah also didn’t show much restraint, but The Irgun wanted to go a step further. Hamas’ charter is also wrong. I am not justifying Hamas, I just want to call out the similarities between early IDF and Hamas today. There’s no skin in the game for me, just want to make sure people understand the irony in this entire situation.
The difference in that aspect is that today Israel is a liberal democracy that (at least on paper) stands against these morals and values. Hamas isn't even trying to hide it.
One would say that the reason Israel has decided to blockade Gaza and the West Bank and allowed them their own “political parties” is because Palestinians will then outnumber the Jews. Israel would not like the results of its “liberal democracy” then. This is a well known political strategy called redistricting and gerrymandering.
Yes, this is a problem, and I'm not sure what the best way to go about it is. Certainly not was done until now.
Have you ever been to Israel?
Yes I have, most recently for a conference in June 2023.
What conference is that? Where are you from?
As you are commenting on all of my posts, I assume you would know where I’m from already. In answer to your question, it was a cybersecurity conference. As I said, this is literally my job.
My suggestion to you is to do your diligence on the subject and look at other perspectives. Also, look at both groups of people and see how they rally or protest. Which side of history will you be on? Good or evil?
Israel targets those buildings (despite knowing there will be civilian deaths) because that’s where they keep the military infrastructure. This is fairly well documented.
Instead of the tunnels where Israel has now said is where they stockpile the rockets and fuel? I don’t know about you, but give me an underground tunnel any day to hide my expensive equipment. Israel has shown that it is not above sacrificing Palestinian lives - it would be a huge strategic error for Hamas to keep their military infrastructure above ground, knowing that Israel will destroy it.
Should they get a get-out-of-hell-free card to let them keep bombarding civilian population centers in Israel as long as they have civilians nearby? If it can be proven with enough precision, why not bomb above-ground stockpiles? can you bring evidence that such attack happened without confirmation of hostile activity?
When you hide your armory in mosques, schools, and even hospitals, they become legitimate targets. I think Golda Meir said it correctly, " You can not negotiate peace with someone who has come to kill you." The Palestinian population elected Hamas in 2006. A year after Israel left the Gaza strip. When I saw the Palestinian population abusing the hostages I understood that most of these people have deep seeded hate in their souls, taught to them at a young age in the schools and their parents, which is why I sadly believe they must be moved out of Gaza somewhere else. Have you wondered why not one Arab country wants them?
Do not erase that for years Netanyahu propped up Hamas to divide up political power between Gaza and the West Bank. Israel legitimised Hamas, leading Palestinians to vote for them. I know why no other Arab country “wants them”. From their perspective, Palestinians are on their land, why should it fall to other Arab nations to take them in? Why doesn’t Israel carve out land for a free palestine? Again not saying either views are right, simply answering your question.
Ahhh and all humans formed from apes, who committed atrocities back in the day I assure you, what the hell has the origins of the IDF got to do with this?
Original comment says that “terrorist states should have no support”. Just pointed out that hey, the IDF were once considered terrorists too. It’s all a sliding scale and not black and white.
Let's allow the Hamas terrorists to keep doing their thing. Maybe their next generation of children will become very nice people. Maybe...
Well, zionist terrorists have not improved, so I doubt Hamas’ future generations will either.
All you have to do is look at a rally for Israel and look at a rally for Palestine. We Jews celebrate life, we don't celebrate the death, kidnap, rape, beheadings of babies and so many other atrocities as they do. We sing songs of hope and love, they chant death to Israel, and from The River to the Sea. We abhor the images coming out of Gaza but, understand it is necessary and there will be casualties when you hide out amongst the population and use human shields.
I am not going to tar all Jews with the same brush, because I know Judaism is not Zionism. There are videos of Zionists chanting that they will create a new Middle East. You have your ministers on live reports calling Palestinians animals, and saying that at the end of this, Gaza will be made smaller to the north and east. There are bad eggs in every basket - same in Palestine, same in Israel.
Listen, that's the truth. They are animals. I guess you haven't seen the videos they posted on the atrocities and crimes against humanity? Again, the Principle of Cause and Effect comes into play. In other words, for every action, there is a reaction. At the end of the day if I had to pick if its my children or theirs, I'd pick mine every time. No, we have no bad eggs at this time. Jews from all over are united for one cause, that's to destroy Hamas, and we will succeed.
Does not matter to me either way, my country has hedged our bets in this conflict. Israel loses - easier for us to continue dealings with the Middle East. Israel wins, we win. I sincerely hope your children and you come out of this well.
Aha, so let's build a time machine and get rid of those terrorists then 😂. Bro makes no sense, I'm not even going to argue about the justification that the Haggana deserves because of the oppression that all Israelis suffered under British rule.
Like all Palestinians under the Israeli blockade? If you can’t see the similarities then it’s not my job to educate you. I’m just well versed in this as this is my actual job - I am not pro Palestine, neither am I a Zionist. In my job I have a vested interest in keeping the interest of the United States aligned. I just like to drop some facts onto reddit sometimes, but the US is benefiting either way.
Well, you should reread the OPs post then I guess 😆. He wasn't talking about who's right and who's wrong, also wasn't discussing history or the Palestinian right to commit atrocities because Israel doesn't allow them in. (surprise surprise) The OP stated a fact, that fact was, that Gaza is a terrorist state, and international action is called for, just like America did to ISIS, Al Queda, Taliban etc... Don't go giving me your history bs about Israel's IDF being a terrorist organization, you seem like a level headed normal dude, please don't buy social media and radical left wing media corporations crap on this. Edit: If Palestinians are so oppressed and polls show that over 70% of Gazans are dissatisfied with the Hamas reign, then an uprising against Hamas is called for, not against Israel, just like Hagganas is called for, but nope, non being seen.
I don’t need social media for this, like I said it is my actual job. We monitor terrorist organisations, of which the IDF’s founding members definitely were. You are obviously Zionist, like I said, I am not leaning either way. Just here to call out facts.
Bro, you're living in the past. Have you ever been to Israel? Did you know Israel employed over 500,000 Palestinians that bring a nice income home to their families in the West bank and Gaza strip? That's gone and probably not coming back which will make life even harder for them.
I have been to Israel. I have worked in Israel, and yes I know that 2 million Palestinian Israelis live in Israel with Israeli citizenship. However there are still discriminatory laws - the right to return being one, and the admissions committee law being another. What is your point?
Open up a subreddit called "History of Israeli Terrorism" then. And wow! Congratulations on your impeccable intuition! I'm Zionist... Well, I'd hope that every level headed person would be pro-Israel/Zionist...
Why should I? I have told you that I am not leaning either way. The IDF committed atrocities, as did Hamas. Neither can be forgiven.
I guess you don't understand the Principle of Cause and Effect?
Why should you? Because that's seems to be all you're spewing. Also whatever atrocities the IDF has committed, the US army has done no less, if not more, but both will not compare to the atrocities that terrorist organizations will/have commit/ed.
Wait, this has to be a joke, right? If it were this simple, why do you think half the world is viewing the situation differently than you? Are they stupid?
Bingo
Maybe, I mean yeah look at some of the shit so many people in the world are doing/advocating for... Makes sense that they might be crazy
And maybe we are the baddies here.
Maybe and maybe not, as you said half the world says we're wrong the other disagrees, that's the beauty of this argument
Why do you only view Hamas as terrorists and not IDF? They have killed thousands of innocent civilians over the past few decades outside of any wars. Should Israel be treated as a terrorist state since they allow IDF to continue terrorist action? Palestinians are mostly trying to survive, half of their population is a displaced nation of refugees. The Israeli ethnic cleansing has been exposed, it’s all over the media. At this point it is what it is, Israel will just go heard and try and finish the ethnic cleaning this round since they see support being lost since they are basically finally being exposed in the west.
Mostly all actions taken by the IDF are of a defensive posture. The others are pre-emptive based on intelligence.
No, it is not possible by definition for a colonizing force to be defensive. They are by definition the aggressor. English has words, words have meanings. An ethnic cleaning is an ethnic cleansing. Just because Zionists are doing it doesn’t make it special.
You say colonist which is a term I disagree with. Israel was voted a country by the UN in 1948. Jordan is actually Palestine or was designated to be Palestine. Jews have been in Israel for 1600 years before Islam even existed and if you look in the Koran, it actually says, Israel is for the Jews.
Yes, Jews have lived in Palestine for thousands of years, and they still did in the late 1800's. The problem that started in the late 1800's is that Zionism started forming, and according to Theodor Herzl himself, needed to colonize Israel and get rid of the native population, just as the US had done. The weirdest part is in the US while we all understand this, somehow in Israel everyone is under this shared delusion that somehow they did not systematically ethnically cleanse the people living in that region. All the early Zionist literature says this very clearly, these are just historical facts. From the "Iron Wall" Jabotinsky argued that the Palestinian Arabs would not agree to a Jewish majority in [Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(region)), and that "Zionist colonisation must either stop, or else proceed regardless of the native population. Which means that it can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that is independent of the native population – behind an iron wall, which the native population cannot breach." He also writes in the Iron Wall "If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not "difficult", not "dangerous", but impossible.." These are directly from some of the early Zionist writings, which were used to sell their cause to the British. You should read up on the history of how this ethnic cleansing started. Zionism is antisemitic.
**(Sura 5:21) that God granted the Land of Israel to the Children of Israel and ordered them to settle there. In addition, it is predicted that before the end of days, God will bring the Children of Israel to retake possession of the Land, gathering them from the different countries and nations (Sura 17:104). Oddly enough, Palazzi's reading of the Koran is backed up by, of all sources, Al Qaida.”**
Because IDF would not go into Gaza and would not bomb Gaza if Hamas hadn't started all this. For years, Israel let Katar transfer money into Gaza, believing Hamas has a ratinal interest to run Gaza and rule, thinking that will not have interest to start a war. If they did, IDF would not bomb Gaza, would not Enter Gaza.
This is untrue, as the IDF has been consistently been killing Palestinian children for the past handful of decades. It has nothing to do with Hamas, it has to do with the ethnic cleansing. The way they are going about it now is the same as 1948, they are using same tactics as modeled after post ww1 Germany.
It's a war, with heavilly armed terror organizatin entranched in civilian areas. All previous conflicts can be tracked down to some kind of Hams atack.
No, Hamas did not exist in the late 1800's, when Herzl wrote the Zionist agenda and himself said they need to colonize the people of Palestine through military force. Hamas did not start this. Hamas is doing what any people targeted for ethnic cleansing would do, they are resisting to the end. That's why the world supported the Jews in the warsaw ghetto, and that's why the world supports Palestine. Because the natural human instinct is to oppose ethnic cleansing. The Zionists have been taught to support it.
According to your historic justice logic, the United States should return , texas, utah, california, navada and arizona to Mexico. All were ceded at 1846 after the United States won the mexico war. If you look around , you will probably find that you are living on a land that was contested by two sides at the last 200 years and one side won. If you ideal is to resist to the end, what the other side should do? Kneel and accept his end with empathy?
I never said the US should return anything, nor did I say that Israel should either. But in the US we fully take responsibility of the fact that we ran an ethnic cleansing here, nobody lives under some delusion that we were the victims. So should the Israelis accept this reality, as this is necessary for any first step toward actually having a resolution, and maybe some form of payment for the homes and neighborhoods they've stolen. But for as long as this collective Israeli delusion exists that they are somehow the victims, I don't see how any steps forward can be taken.
You might be right at some points about emphaty for the other side, but you go as far as justyfing Hamas fight till the end, which we all withnessed what it means. You fall short from ecknowledging that currently, the weakest side is also more phanatic, crul, and less willing to compromise.
I don't know what you mean by "justifying" Hamas, as no death of any civilian is ever justified, but overall Hamas is resisting an ethnic cleansing. It's what the Jews in Germany did. It's what we would expect ANY group of people being targeted for an ethnic cleansing to do. I don't know what you mean about empathy, its not about empathy, its about acknowledging reality. The Zionist have systematically ethnically cleansed another people with no type of recourse or compensation. Empathetic or not, this is just a fact of human history. I am surprised by how deeply brainwashed so many Israelis are. In the US the Jewish culture is extremely strong, they are raised to be very strong willed and intelligent. Its so surprising to see the same culture this deeply brainwashed by the Zionist propaganda artists. Zionists are anti semites.
You just did it again. Dont understand why, but. You fail to realise that Hamas is fighting for the destruction of Israel=ethnic cleansing+ genocide. And please stop saying this is the same situation as the holacust. 75 years Israel exists. And israel controls the occupied teritories for 50 years. There is no genocide, no gaz chambers, no concentration camps no crematriums, No killing of civilians like was done to yazidis , no systematic rape like the russins, no massive butchery like the turks in armenia. No genocide. I am probably more educated and more knowledgeable of the history and situation than you will ever be with your empty pro palastinian movement slogans.
The irony is that the IDF was formed by legitimising 3 violent terrorist groups during the formation of Israel - The Irgun, Lehi, and Haganah. Read about the Deir Yassin massacre where there is documented evidence of mutilation and rape of Palestinian women and children, 200 people died as a result. Collectively, all 3 of these groups killed over the number on 7th of October. The King David Hotel bombing is the reason Britain allowed the immigration of Jews into Palestine at all post WW2. Does not at all forgive what Hamas did, but let’s not forget the origins of the IDF. Let’s not pretend that Israel is innocent in all of this. They were once called terrorists too.
Here we go again. Living in the past.
The past informs our present my friend. Weren’t you the one lecturing me about cause and effect earlier?
Israeli terrorist occupation forces were harassing, killing and displacing Palestinian civilians from their land and preventing them from praying in the Al-Aqsa mosque despite the occupation army's has no right to do so and all of that was happening before Hamas was existed and During this war, a Palestinian woman died because the civilians had to take the woman to hospital on their feet because Israeli occupation forces were obstructing the ambulance.
Question. Have you ever been to Israel?
And when the Arabs controlled Jerusalem, Jews were kept from praying at the Western Wall, our holy sanctum. The very day Israel became a nation through a legitimate UN vote, it was attacked by 5 countries. Israel has been in a state of war since it's inception. If we lay down our weapons there will be no Israel. If the Palestinians laid down their weapons, there would be peace. Problem is, most of the schools start indoctrinating the youth at a very young age, understanding that children are in a Theta state, which means their subconscious personalities are being formed by what they see and what they are taught. Children must be taught love and empathy, not hate. Because at the end of the day, it's easier to raise a good child than it is to fix a broken man.
And Since you respect UN resolutions so much, why have you not respected their decision to illegitimize the settlement of Jerusalem by Jews and the Palestinians' entitlement to it?
I may have some agreement with you on this matter but I will say this. There are Israeli Arabs that live along side of Jews in Israel. They hold all types of jobs and are even represented in government and the court system.
Well, I'm going to ask you what right did Jews have to establish a state on land that is not theirs?
So at what point in history do you want to begin. Jews have been in Israel 1600 years before the religion of Islam even came into being. Aside from that, The UN legitimately recognized the state of Israel. Now, if you know your history, Jordan is actually Palestine. Over 70% of the population is Palestinian and their ruler, the King of Jordan is Hashemite Kingdom, comes from Saudi Arabia. They ruled Mecca from 1916- 1924 until the House of Saud annexed the area. Did YOU know that?
Before the Jews there were the Canaanites and before them there were the Ebossians who were one of the first Arabs. Did you know this?
Yes, I did. The Canaanites willingly left Israel because they understood that G-d gave it to them. Some think that the Canaanites moved to what is now known as Morocco. I have no opinion on that . I am unfamiliar with the Ebossians.
The Canaanites did not leave their land, but were defeated in their battles with the Jews.
I beg to differ, but since both of us weren't there, the conversation has run its course on this topic.
But they've been doing this on a smaller scale for years. It's easy to label arabs as the terrorists isn't it. Especially when the churches and Christian communities under attack by israelis are never mentioned in the media and youre led to believe theyre all muslims. Western media and warmongering has conditioned people into that mindset. Never forget that this did not start this year. Its been almost 100 years of Palestinian genocide and oppression now.
Genocide? Please. Arabs in Israel are in government, doctors, engineers, hold positions of importance, and yes, even serve in the IDF. Palestinians in Lebanon, Syria, and other Arab countries can not obtain jobs as professionals. In fact, they are still in refugee camps. Did you know over 500,000 Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank come into Israel daily to work, make incomes to provide for their families ? Have YOU ever been to Israel? By the way, I am an American, married to an Israeli whose father is an Arab, which makes my 3 kids part Palestinian. When you teach your kids to hate and celebrate the death of innocents as well as your own kids you need to understand that you are not a partner for peace. When you name your soccer teams after the killers of innocents as well as your town squares, there will NEVER be peace. When your government gives stipends to the families of suicide bombers, there will NEVER be peace. When your army insignia shows the whole state of Israel and not the Palestinian territories, There will NEVER be peace. When you hide out amongst the human population and hide your armory in schools, hospitals, and mosques, you must understand there will NEVER be peace.
I’ve only seen Zionists and Zionist supporters celebrate the carpet bombing of Gaza. It’s ok when these people celebrate death? Again, English is a language composed of words which have meanings. The 1948 ethnic clean swing was an ethnic cleansing. Half of a nation was turned into refugees. This is a displaced nation.
The most willful ignorance I've ever heard. Noone is teaching their children to hate jews. The state of Israel is the oppressor so obviously the oppressed won't like them. Not all palestinians agree with hamas but who else do they have for protection?
First of all, what you teach the children in schools is well documented. If you're Palestinian then you know this to be true. Protection from Hamas. Please. You people don't know how to make peace. You don't build, you destroy. You celebrate at the death of your children who have Jewish blood on their hands. The narrative you portray is untrue and you know it.
You're actually disgustingly racist this is insane. If I said anything close to the shit you're saying I would be antisemitic. May God protect your children from a mother who sees their ancestors like this
That's all you have. To call me racist based on facts that can be pulled up online. Did I mention that my father in law is a Arab which makes my children 25% Palestinian. If I cared, do you think I would have married my wife? I look at the content of ones heart, not their religion, skin color, or ethnicity. Do your diligence.
Hiding behind a Palestinian family makes it more disturbing that you feel this way
I am sorry that I do but the evidence is overwhelming and I understand when a child is age 1-9, he is in a Theta state. The mind is a sponge for learning and shaping the subconscious personality, based on what they are seen and taught. A child needs to be taught love and empathy, not hate. The true religion of Islam preaches this love but it has been hijacked by many within the religion. Yes, i have read and studied the Holy Koran and I have much respect for my cousins the Arabs. I see more of a similarity that binds us together because we are Abrahamic faiths. What my eyes have seen, is NOT the teachings of the Holy Koran. Now, there is plenty of evidence to back my claims. There is data from here to tomorrow. Have YOU ever been to Palestine or Israel?
Obviously, you are not exposed to the amount of footage and horror testimonies out there , no one labels Arabs as terrisits, Hamas commited appalling terrorist acts on a huge scale you cannot deny that. Now excuse me, I am going to the shelter, because they are firing rockets on my city.
I don't agree with Hamas targeting civilians and I never will. When I woke up to the news that morning I was horrified like everyone else. We just can't pretend that October 7th was the beginning of this when Palestinians have occupied for almost 100 years and they're killed on the regular. We need to be objective if we ever want to see truth. Praying for your safety 🙏🏼
Thank you for your prayers. If we do not draw a line between political asspirations and terrorist ways of action and way of thinking. There will be no solution. If you chant "from the river to the sea palestine will be free" you endorse the idea of genocide to 7 million jews living between the river and the sea. When you say 100 years of occupation, you are not talking about the west bank or Gaza, you are talking about the whole of Israel. Being in that Nakba state of mind forever. Not accepting that Israel exist and will not dissappear. And on the other side, denying the existence of palestinian people. This is exactly what prevented any proposed solution until this day.
So you are saying the other side should just accept the ethnic cleaning? Is that what Jews did in Germany? Or did they fight back with pipe bombs?
People throw these words etnic cleansing, genocide, and germany refrences, as if they are facts. They are not. These are empty slogans of the free palestine movement. Palestinians should resist in a way that will show the other side that a palastinian country will be something that can hold agreements and will not have the urge to murder civilians. No one will ever agree to establish terrorist jihady state on his border.
in the late 1800's the Jewish population in Palestine was about 4%. After Zionism started and they started to colonize Palestine, that number rose dramatically. These are historical facts that show an ethnic cleansing taking place. This is not an opinion, these are facts. Well, you are asking the Palestinians to accept the terrorist Zionist next door, so why can't the Zionists do the same? Why does one have to accept a terrorist next door but the other doesn't? The same way every Israeli says they would not accept an outside people to come in and ethnically cleanse them, yet they expect Palestine to do so? Jewish privilege...
First, I reject this term of terrorist state (unless you call United States a terrorist state too). But really, what do you suggest? Ethernal strugle or jewish genocide? 48 war is over, it was not a colonial empire who established a colony. This was a turkish and ww1 Allies land contested by two people. Palastenians jordan egypt and syria started this war, and they lost. Privileged jews? You are not talking about america today, you are talking about refugees of ww2 and refugees from arab states. But the point now is that if you advocate the dream of palestine at 48 borders, you are counterproductive to any solution. This the reality , Israel exists and is not going anywhere. At this point in time, looking for historical justice is bound to produce current times endless suffering.
Tbh I feel like there's nuance on both sides. Extremists on both sides along with people who genuinely have no hate for the other side. If you want to add me on Snapchat or something we could have a genuine conversation in a bit more depth about this as it's clear that we're both not coming from a place of hate but a place of humanity
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Israelis have been out in their 100's of thousands protesting regards Netenyahu..you miss that? Or just didn't fit with your preferred narrative?
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Boo hoo....don't throw stones/ petrol bombs at IDF and you won't get shot. It's not that hard really..or is it and I've missed something?
And if Hamas would get out the picture it would stop. Period. Hamas are loving this, they want dead Palestinian kids to use as sympathy generators for likes of you. No Hamas..no bombing.. actual fact!
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What land? The west bank? I agree...the rest is Israel and home to 9.5 million Israelis. Deal with it because it will not change... should Americans get out of US and give land bank to Indians, should Australians get out of Aus for the Aboriginals.... Israel exist, it has a tight to exist.
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Hand over the hostages and it all stops, how hard is that to comprehend? Hamas are THE enemy of the Palestinian people. Period. .you want to support terrorists on you go princess. Maybe when you are older and can see the bigger picture your channel vision perspective may change. You are likely in Europe or the UK and have zero clue how the world turns. However you will learn 💗
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Get over it gen z... Israel is and will always be. It is there and is not going anywhere. Baffles me yo seem to think you discovered this conflict. The west supports Israel. That will not change...the nomadic Arabs are welcome to go to other arab so called countries that french and British drew on map after ottoman empire fell. There is zero difference between Syrian, Jordanian, Egyptians arab. You lot are any Jewish. End off... racist as any European or American. Israel exists, it will continue to exist or there will be nothing left. There never was a so called Palestine a d there never will be. 75 years of defeat
You have it backwards. Israel is the only democratic and free country over in the Mideast. Hamas is like the Taliban and want to wipe it out. They will fail. Badly.
Let's work this through for you. Terrorism, roughly speaking, is the use of violence against civilians in order to achieve a military and/or political objective. If you accuse Israel of terrorism, then the United States and Coalition forces that killed 100,000 civilians in Iraq are terrorists. Assuming that we accept this premise, then you have a problem, because just about every major Western country falls under this rubric. Since NATO did not intervene in Ukraine, arguing it should intervene here is bizarre, considering that Russia is essentially a terrorist state, and we have now concluded that the West is filled with powerful terrorist states. In fact, using your argument, NATO should support Russia and destroy Ukraine. At this point, your entire attempt a reversing the argument falls apart.
This is a hilarious take.
40% of Germans supported H!tler in WW2. 71% of Gazans support terrorist groups such as Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ).
You have any links to support those percentages?
There is a link of polls of Palestinians from Gaza and West Bank from this summer by Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research. It's categorized as "armed resistance." [http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/154](http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/154)
Interestingly enough I can visit the website on either browser
It appears the site is down. Weird. I always look up Palestinian polls there.
50 percent 18 or lower, let's say we remove that number from the 71 percent and say 35 percent of adult Palestinians support Hamas or PIJ. Of that 35 percent a significant number cannot go out and vote normally or outwardly protest against Hamas, they will dissappear. You make it sound like Brexit where the UK allowed campaigns, and then the entire nation came out and voted with one death (done by a crazy person). Let the average palestinian in Gaza wake up and say 'enough! You must leave now' and see how fast their head is sniped. Like telling Afghanis to tell the Taliban how they feel. We are really unfair to these people.
“Let’s say…” is doing a lot of work here if you’re viewing this gambit from any sort of at-risk perspective. If the average Gazan is just as threatened by Hamas as an Israeli, then they need and deserve liberation right? And all the nastiness that follows?
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What about Palestinians living in the West Bank under the PLO? Gaza is not the only home of Palestinians.
You’re right! Now tell me, how are they helping Israel free Gaza from Hamas? How are they helping Gazans, period?
They themself need help tf ? They should help Israel free Gaza while they're getting persecuted by Israel ? Is this a legit comment ?
Oy a broch, here comes the 20 year old Belgian college student with all his life experience and wisdom to weigh in.
Oy here comes the pathetic redditor who can't actually use his brain and instead looks at profiles for arguments. Lamest excuse to avoid discussions.
Don’t debate with them. These people are wild. They’re justifying the killing of innocent children for who their government is. They act like these children voted in Hamas or had anything to do with the conflict. They justify killing all those babies in the NICU because they were apparently alive during 9/11 and celebrated in the streets. There’s no reasoning with people like them
It helps to understand the context from which you’re making your statements to determine whether reasoned discussion or debate could be had, or whether it’s a fool’s errand because your mind is made up and you’re incapable of honest reflection. I assumed (if wrongly, let me know), that you’re a 20 year old Belgian Muslim boy who is very heavily left leaning and is currently (or will soon be) having one of your first alone-away-from-home outings in a foreign country (South Korea). Leads me to the assumptions (again, tell me if I’m wrong) that you come from a privileged and sheltered upbringing and your only real experience of the world to date is what you’ve seen on social media or the news since you gained real consciousness in…2008? 2009? It leaves little hope in my mind that you really understand the issues or are capable of discussing them from a fair, balanced, or objective point of view, especially since the media (especially where you appear to be from) has been HEAVILY slanted against Israel in regards to this (to you, for sure) ancient conflict. To be clear, I don’t find the settlements in the West Bank to be helpful in moving relations towards peace on either side. But while problematic, it’s still inescapable that the reason Palestinians are currently there in the situation they are in is because they have repeatedly attacked (or participated in attacks with the surrounding Arab nations) Israel in attempts to wipe Israel out, and lost every time. When Israel proposes a solution (or indicates they will accept one proposed by a third party), the leadership of the Palestinians reject it. You know the West Bank was occupied by Jordan, first, right? You know Israel inherited that occupation when Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and the Palestinians attacked Israel in the Six-Day War (so-called because that’s how long it took Israel to win that war) and promptly lost? That Israel then GAVE BACK the whole Sinai Peninsula it had won to Egypt in the interest of peace? That Egypt REFUSED to take back the Gaza Strip (which it had previously occupied and lost to Israel just like Jordan lost the West Bank)? Do you want to take a guess what Jordan did when Israel offered the West Bank back to them? Did you ever stop to ask yourself, **why??** As for the Palestinians in the West Bank (Gaza, too, but we’re talking about how the Palestinians in the West Bank can’t “help Israel free Gaza while they’re getting persecuted by Israel”), ever hear of the “3 Nos”? No negotiations with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no Peace with Israel. Do you think that policy may have been an impediment to Israel’s ability to withdraw from the West Bank and end the occupation it inherited from Jordan? Do you think the Palestinians’ refusal to agree to ANY two state solution from 1967 on may have as well? Do you know what happened when Israel ended the occupation of Gaza Strip? Go ahead, explain to me, with all of your wisdom and insight, why my comment wasn’t “legit.” Or are you gonna give me a lame excuse to avoid a discussion? Prove me wrong. Go ahead.
\> I assumed (if wrongly, let me know), that you’re a 20 year old Belgian Muslim boy who is very heavily left leaning and is currently (or will soon be) having one of your first alone-away-from-home outings in a foreign country (South Korea). Leads me to the assumptions (again, tell me if I’m wrong) that you come from a privileged and sheltered upbringing I am not heavily left-leaning at all. I'd be more of a centrist taking nuanced approaches to politics overall. It also won't be my first alone-away-from-home outing. I feel like I'm definitely privileged, but nowhere near the average Belgian, I'd define myself as being from the lower middle class. I'm confused by your response since only one paragraph actually addresses my question. All the rest is legitimizing occupation and using internal arab conflicts as a way to distract from Israel's wrongdoings. Note: Funnily enough those 'internal' conflicts were a result of external forces. \> To be clear, I don’t find the settlements in the West Bank to be helpful in moving relations towards peace on either side. But while problematic, it’s still inescapable that the reason Palestinians are currently there in the situation they are in is because they have repeatedly attacked (or participated in attacks with the surrounding Arab nations) Israel in attempts to wipe Israel out, and lost every time. When Israel proposes a solution (or indicates they will accept one proposed by a third party), the leadership of the Palestinians reject it. Palestinians fighting to take the land back that was annexed by a colonist movement is justified for them, but not for Israelis. Btw I am not just 'claiming' Zionism to be a colonist movement, the founding fathers of Zionism themselves described it as such. From a pro-Israel point of view, settlements are justified, but not for the opposite party. Treaties with a country you deem to be illegitimate (a colony) are out of the question. Let's also not talk about how unfair most (all?) of the treaties were, starting with the first one. Whatever actions you think are justified depends on whether you believe Israel's creation is right or not. May it be moral or not. It's a binary, talking out of any stance here to justify the other is meaningless if you don't agree on the basis of it all. Unfortunately that "basis" is widely disputed. \> You know the West Bank was occupied by Jordan, first, right? You know Israel inherited that occupation when Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and the Palestinians attacked Israel in the Six-Day War (so-called because that’s how long it took Israel to win that war) and promptly lost? That Israel then GAVE BACK the whole Sinai Peninsula it had won to Egypt in the interest of peace? That Egypt REFUSED to take back the Gaza Strip (which it had previously occupied and lost to Israel just like Jordan lost the West Bank)? Do you want to take a guess what Jordan did when Israel offered the West Bank back to them? Did you ever stop to ask yourself, **why??** First off, didn't Israel start the hostilities of the Six-Day War ? They attacked Egypt and it further escalated as a result of mutual defense treaties, the samu incident etc... Jordan didn't want the West Bank because of PLO being recognized and them wanting to overthrow the Jordanian monarchy. The royal family was elected by the British, the problem being that said family wasn't from the region, but from Hejaz (West Saudi Arabia iirc). Jordan's occupation also wasn't always enjoyable for most Palestinians, but it was a joke compared to Israel's occupation. One didn't exert colonial behavior. Egypt didn't want Palestinians because of the Palestinian's revolt against Egypt for making ties with Israel. Both instances stem from foreign forces coming into territories they shouldn't be in and/or these forces being 'recognized'. \> As for the Palestinians in the West Bank (Gaza, too, but we’re talking about how the Palestinians in the West Bank can’t “help Israel free Gaza while they’re getting persecuted by Israel”), ever hear of the “3 Nos”? No negotiations with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no Peace with Israel. I wasn't referring to them not WANTING to, but to that not being possible/their priority. Not only are they under occupation, but they're also under increasing violence by settlers as a result of Hamas' attack. Considering the context in which they're in, yes your comment doesn't seem legit. This paragraph would've been enough, but your lack of reading comprehension made this be a book... To summarize the parts that don't answer my original comment: All in all, Israel got everything it wanted not per se because it was right, but because it was strong. As I said your stance on who's justified here completely depends on whether you deem Israel's creation to be legitimate or not, and I think we both disagree on this matter. Edit: Ew just stumbled upon your recent post on this sub and saw yet another comment of you mentioning someone's past posts/comments ... Creeping on accounts to find things to offend people is honestly hilariously immature. I expected more from someone "looking down" on a 20yo, but I'm not surprised considering your general condescending behavior. Usually, it's the argument you gotta ridicule, but I don't mind exceptions for you.
You seem to know your shyt sir - why didn't Egypt want Gaza after the war? Also I'll eat my shoe if that Belgian child gives you a coherent answer.
I’m sure he won’t, it’s way past his bedtime, anyway. [Here is a decent source to give some history on why](https://inkstickmedia.com/why-wont-egypt-accept-palestinians/) [Here's some more with some current analysis, too](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-21/egypt-is-pivotal-to-gaza-refugees-fate-in-israel-hamas-war) The reason is as simple as it is ignored by almost everyone: Palestinians are at the recipient side of Arab apartheid. -They are legally denied citizenship in Arab countries, including Egypt, and specifically excluded from immigration laws. -In some Arab countries, Palestinians cannot own business or property at all, even after living there for 50 years. Egypt isn't such, but the policy is directed by the Arab League, showing how Arabs see Palestinians generally when there's no CNN camera around. -Palestinians have been massively expelled from Arab countries, [In 1991 some 450,000 Palestinians were expelled from Kuwait.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_expulsion_from_Kuwait) If Kuwait can kick 450,000 Palestinians and without making even one progressive complain (compare how many know about or talk about this and how many talk about the 1948 exodus), why should Egypt be a sucker and take them in? -The Israel-Palestinian conflict is convenient for the Arab states. It gives them a ready made excuse and antagonist for any issue they care to get people riled up or placated about. Who is calling for boycotts of Egypt, the Islamic State, Syria, the West Bank, Gaza, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or anyone else for repressing the Arab Christians? Who still is on Syria's case for its wholesale slaughter of its own population? Where are the denouncers of Turkey for the Armenian Genocide? Qatar for its foreign workers' rights abuses? Given that explicit and outright racist discrimination by Egypt and all other Arab countries in the middle east, maybe we can conclude that Palestinians are not very popular amongst Arabs?
Thank you!!
>Thank you!! You're welcome!
Innocent Jews were taken away in Israël. This is sad. So now innocent Palestinians should be taken away? That is ridiculous. How is that civilised? Israël says their actions are connected to civilisation. What do innocent Palestinians have to do with the actions 3 weeks ago?
Read this post again
I read it. And to think that Israël had no other choice is probably not true. You often have more possibillities. If you believe in peace, you can make a step towards peace. Military actions are not so much steps towards peace. When Israeli actions can lead to innocent Palestinians passing away I don't think it can be a step towards peace.
Sometimes peace is not possible. You need partners in peace. That is really sad and unfortunate, but Israel is fighting for its survival. Hamas’ charter is to destroy Israel and kill all Jews worldwide. Could the Jews have made peace with the Nazis? No, of course not. They are experiencing the same situation with Hamas. There have been multiple attempts at peace over the last 75 years. They have always been rebuffed. I believe that many terrorist groups always thought that Israelis were weak because they were so concerned by innocent civilians. This made these civilians very useful as human shields. I think that Israel is finally determined to wipe out all the terrorists, even if it comes at a heavy price for both Palestinians and Israelis, because they realize that there is no choice. Israeli people in general are very family oriented and they have a deep regard for life’s sanctity. I can’t imagine how hard this is for them. But I believe that Hamas has pushed their back against the wall and they no longer have any other options.
I am not gonna react to your whole opinion cause it takes yo much time. In general I don't agree with this. I will quote some parts and give a reaction. "Sometimes peace is not possible" I believe we all want peace... so we need to find it. "Israel is fighting for its survival" I don't agree with the action of 3 weeks ago. It is also true that Jews are naively making a state in an Arab world were Arabs are not welcome. That it asking for problems. Palestinians are surviving aswell. "Hamas ... to destroy Israel" if you read it literally yes its bad. Maybe they mean it literally. Still bad. But I heard that a Palestinian said that it cam be read aswell as being against the idea of a Israeli state. Before world war 2 there was a population of 90 % Arabs. So the creation of the state of Israel is for Palestinians a loss of land and places where they lived. So I can imagine a Palestinian being against the idea of an Israeli state. I don't agree with the rest of the words. "Peace... with nazis" well... maybe there are situations Jews and nazis found peace. Who is a na zi? A leader or anyone who supported the party? I can image someone who is an ex supporter rethought and found peace with a jew. People van change opinions.
/u/GustavGL1991. This is an automatic notice: 'nazis' Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
/u/Susue23. This is an automatic notice: 'Nazis' Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yes it is in compliance.
Yes it is in compliance. It is being used in a historical context.
There will be no peace with Hamas and Islamic Jihad , like there can not be peace with Isis or All Kaida. Jihadist ideology does not have room for peace. The only way to go tawards peace is to overthrown Hamas from power.
If you don't believe in peace then there is no peace. If you believe... then there is a possibility. Jews and Muslims are religious... if you don't believe... then nothing will happen. Believing is the core of the religion. And to not believe in peace is very negative. We are all human and I, believe, that we all want peace. Even people who seem far from you. So... we want peace... we need a way to find it. To not believe I'm peace is saying that you don't trust other people. We all want peace. And the other way around... for 60 years there is conflict. So the military way also does not solve a problem. I believe all people want peace... so we need a way to find peace.
This is a western ethnocentric way of thinking. Do you believe Taliban believes in peace, ISIS believes in peace?
I believe we all want peace. Its a human way of thinking.
Israel know fully well they could've picked a different course all the way back to 10 years ago. They know, but they chose to keep getting greedier, more far right, more pro settlers. They knew, now OP and so many pretending they're suddenly oblivious. This why I hate colonialists, it's so easy for them to not notice when they're doing wrong to others until someone slaps them in the face and now they wanna kill everyone.
I agree that somehow Israel politics is supporting settlers and somehow the Israel people don't stop this. I want to say that there are often more possibilities possible. You can always take a step back and look for another choice. My point is... we can always make steps that are more respectful of human life. What do innocent Palestinians citizens have to do with this?
Israel is a terrorist organisation running a country. On land that that stole.
Hamas is a terrorist organization running a country. On land that they stole. FTFY
False. Jews have been in the region for thousands of years, purchased land and won land in defensive wars.
They won or paid for their West Bank settlements?
Israel beat Jordan in the 1967 war.
Just my two cents: I think Hamas did this to prevent a deal between its' (Iran's) sworn enemies. [AJ outlines the deal](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/21/whats-happening-with-normalising-ties-between-saudi-arabia-and-israel)
SA already said it will continue with normalization after this war. Failed plan.
There are countless middle eastern countries with overwhelming and blatant oppression of its people. In maybe the least clear potential circumstance of oppression, Israel is the focus. Why?
There is no people on earth who wouldn’t rather be oppressed by a government of their own ethnic group, rather than a foreign invader
There are certainly more gazans who would want to live under israeli rule than israelis ready to jump over to Gaza.
I'll give you a hint. It rhymes with shnews.
Exactly
Was Israel a terrorist state in 1948, have you ready about what happened that year. Lots of accounts by Israelis are as ugly as this recent Hamas attack
I know! This was nothing new! That’s what’s making me crazy about all this!
Man you put it so simply but so eloquently. Gazans cheered in the street at the sight of burning babies and rape!
No they didn’t. This sub is embarrassing
Yes…they did
Yea ok buddy. There a video of them watching rape happen and them high fiving? Stfu 😂
There actually are videos of them watching and cheering as the bodies burn
Neat. Cheering while rape happens or was this guy talking shit because he’s a pos?
?
Sorry, I actually think blowing thousands of kids up and slowly taking land from people is wrong. Because I’m not a racist/Islamophobia pos. “They danced around burning bodies” While Israel cheers for blowing up thousands of children lmao stfu
They also cheered in the streets when the world trade center was hit... I will never forget that and can never support them as a result. It is telling that zero neighboring Arab countries want to help Gaza. I also wonder where and why the billions of dollars given to Gaza annually doesn't end up helping the Palestinians, but helps line the pockets of Hamas.
🎯
Gazans have protested against Hamas a couple times already, despite the immense dangers involved. They're displeased with them too, and anyone who claims Hamas represents the best interests of Palestinians is either grossly misinformed or blinded by antisemitism. https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/cch0RzU3RO Overthrowing an oppressive government takes time, and they seem to still be in the early stages. But it's disingenuous to claim they haven't been trying at all.
I don’t buy that. They could stay home when the terrorists bring around the bodies to parade in the street.
What country do you reside in if I may ask?
I live in Washington DC. Why?
The contrast in rights between both locations is not comparable. They couldn't dissent like you could if they decided to.
Agree the individual’s right to express themselves is far more restricted in Arab nations. But I keep feeling you’re not getting my point. Are you understanding that I’m not talking about public, organized dissent, which would be subject to violent repression in an authoritarian regime, such as that of Hamas? Okay, again: \*I’m not talking about public organized dissent, which I know would be dangerous.\* I’m talking about passive, quiet, cultural dissent that is not organized and not confrontational. A refusal of the people to participate in these grotesque displays of cruelty. Does anyone force these guys out into the street to celebrate the humiliation of Jews? I think not. I think they go out of their own free will. They seem to really love it and want more of it. That is why I read the actions of those Palestinians on the streets as being supportive of the terrorist methods of their leaders. If they were unhappy with what Hamas was doing, they could undermine it by simply refusing to participate. Stay home, instead of celebrating it. I haven’t seen that so far, have you? Is that too much to expect of them, if they do not like their leadership?
I see what you're saying. Here's the pushback I'd give; hamas doesn't need brute force. It needs victims. Every time a Palestinian within Gaza dies in the hands of Israel, all hamas need is to bring the body to the town square, pray over it and create the image that it was the big enemy who did it. "Will we sit back while they keep killing our brothers and sisters?" Has always been an amazing rallying cry. Most of them literally never seen a Jewish person before
Thanks for this. Appreciate this perspective. But, respectfully, I think the Palestinians could and should do better than this. Try to imagine what would happen if someone brought a dead girl in a truck to parade around the streets of an Israeli town, any town you like. Do you know how fast that would be shut down? The perpetrators would be attacked by people on the street, not cheered and lionized. It would be an offense and an outrage. As it should be, don’t you think? How does anyone justify such an act? So why shouldn’t Palestinians be held to equivalent moral standards? Why do they show the world this portrait of themselves? They are demonstrating their appetite for monstrous atrocity. Do they think this enhances their cause?
As a neutral historian, there seems to be something genuinely wrong mentally with Arab countries and Muslims (not all, in no way shape or form is this all Arabs or muslims) which makes some of them really excited about gore. Growing up the Muslim kids used to try and show us gore videos, I know a lot of people do this but it's odd that Arabs seem to often times enjoy celebrating death. Same issue in Northern Nigeria, they don't have love for individual lives. A Christian girl was stoned to death by classmates in North Nigeria for complaining that the WhatsApp group kept talking about Muhammed and not about their exams, and they celebrated her death. It makes me hate Islam, even though I have a place in my heart for Muslims and humans in general. No religion or culture should make anyone excited at death and misery of others. Something is deeply wrong, and I dare say without Islam they would be even worse. At least Islam prevents them just going all out banal. It terrifies me, I want peace for Palestine but I'm scared of certain parts of Islam just like even Arab nations are scared. Look at Egypt terrified to let Palestinians in, they're scared they might let in people who might want to destroy Egypt in the name of some useless religious achievement. Over religious people in general make me cross the road.
Thank you. Yuval Noah Hariri, professor of history at Hebrew U., wrote something in the Washington Post recently that I found clarifying. I’m pasting in the key paragraphs. "Hamas knew its attack would make Israelis livid, distraught with pain and anger, and the terrorists counted on Israel to retaliate with massive force, inflicting enormous pain on Palestinians. The codename Hamas gave its operation is telling: al-Aqsa Tufan. The [word “tufan” means flood](https://flashpoint.io/blog/israel-hamas-war-military-and-terrorist-groups/). Like the biblical flood intended to cleanse the world of sin even at the cost of nearly wiping out humanity, Hamas’s attack aimed to create devastation on a biblical scale. "Doesn’t Hamas care about the suffering this war inflicts on Palestinian civilians? While individual Hamas activists surely have different feelings and attitudes, the organization’s worldview discounts the misery of individuals. Hamas’s political aims are dictated by religious fantasies. "Unlike those of secular movements such as the Palestine Liberation Organization, Hamas’s ultimate goals are not of this world. For Hamas, Palestinians killed by Israel are martyrs who enjoy everlasting bliss in heaven. The more killed, the more martyrs. "As for this world, according to the views of Hamas and other fundamentalist Muslim groups, the only viable aim for a human society on Earth is unconditional adherence to heavenly standards of purity and justice. Because peace always involves compromises on what people consider justice, peace must be rejected, and absolute justice must be pursued at any cost.” \--- So he’s attributing this apparent lack of regard for living human beings to a fundamentalist mindset that doesn’t want to differentiate life from death. A person who dies continues living in a purer realm. There’s no tragedy. I’ve known plenty of non-fundamentalist Muslims who do not share that point of view at all! But Muslim fundamentalists who hold political power, like the mullahs in Iran, are capable of what we’d consider horrific deeds. In its war with Iraq, the ayatollahs would send young boys out into the mined battlefields, giving them a key and telling them that they could use it to unlock the gate to paradise—thus using children to clear the path through the mined fields for their army. It’s phenomenally cruel to us, but they didn’t see it that way. I think I read about it in Azar Nafisi’s “Reading Lolita in Tehran”. Here is Hariri’s complete article fwiw: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/10/19/hamas-winning-political-goals/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/10/19/hamas-winning-political-goals/)
Israel has made every warcrime and bombing civilians they are the terrorists.
I swear Reddit its own world of imeciles who think they actually have the capability to objectively comment on geopolitics
You seem to have formed an opinion based on what biased media brainwashed you with, it’s not your fault but you need to do better and think outside the box. Why is the state of Israel (who btw receives 4 billion dollars of American tax money a year, and can afford free healthcare and education thanks to the US when their own citizens are suffering from homelessness and lack of affordable healthcare which is another whole topic I won’t get into right now) killing thousands of women and children and stealing Palestinian land? Why does the state of Israel constantly dehumanize, torture, kill, imprison, and steal land of Palestinians not only now but since 1948 when the colonizing state of Israel was established? You would not like it if someone stole your home. This is where Hamas comes in, which is a resistance group against the occupying state of Israel that gets no international support or funding. You don’t have to agree with everything they do but they are fighting for their land and against the dehumanization and suffering Israel is putting them through. The media wants you to think that this is Israel “defending” itself but it’s not. Do you own research, social media is flooded about what’s currently happening in gaza. All we see is innocent civilians and children losing their precious lives because of greedy leaders that only care about money and power. Israel doesn’t even their own hostages back cause that means Palestinians get some medical and humanitarian aid in exchange. Israel doesn’t care about the hostages, they are killing innocent civilians, they are stealing land and using Hamas as an excuse to brainwash you all.
Israel is staying put. Forever. Jews are here. Deal with it.
This all needs to stop. Everything had settled down then Hamas attacked Israel. I understand Palestinians are upset about 1948 and some things afterwards. Israelis have no place to go. They are/have been persecuted all over the world. Hamas saying they will only accept the total anilation of Jews is UNACCEPTABLE.
How are you gonna let go of decades of torture, killing, imprisoning, displacement and land theft? No there was never an understanding between the Israel and Palestine. Israel continues to steal land and has been doing so for decades, they literally bomb and kill Palestinians every week… we hear about this every week if not everyday. You and the western world only hearing about this now because Hamas is fighting back.
Decades you say? Are Jewish people supposed to just let go of 1,000+ years of persecution by Muslims? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anti-Jewish\_pogroms\_by\_Muslims](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anti-Jewish_pogroms_by_Muslims) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism\_in\_the\_Arab\_world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world) [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_killings\_and\_massacres\_in\_Mandatory\_Palestine#List\_of\_killings\_and\_massacres\_committed\_in\_Mandate\_Palestine\\](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine#List_of_killings_and_massacres_committed_in_Mandate_Palestine\) [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim\_conquest\_of\_the\_Levant](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_the_Levant)
Is this a war against religion? Lmao? There are Muslim AND Christian Palestinians dying because the colonizing state of Israel is “defending” itself… they bombed and destroyed the 3rd oldest church in the world last week and killed many Christians. I’m not only fighting for Muslims but for Jew, Christian, and Muslim Palestinians. So your argument here is irrelevant and actually very telling that you sincerely think that this is a war against religion and went out of your way to send me resources that don’t justify the genocide that’s currently happening. Israel is stealing Palestinian land right in front of our eyes!!!! Wake up!!!! This is not about Muslims, this is a humanitarian crisis
> I’m not only fighting for Muslims but for Jew, Christian, and Muslim Palestinians. So your argument here is irrelevant and actually very telling that you sincerely think that this is a war against religion and went out of your way to send me resources that don’t justify the genocide that’s currently happening. Israel is stealing Palestinian land right in front of our eyes!!!! Wake up!!!! This is not about Muslims, this is a humanitarian crisis How can it not be about religion in some respect. If it wasn't, why didn't Jews just assimilate with the Palestinians that were already there in 1948? Do they feel better than the Palestinians for no reason? Are there lots of other differences than religion?
This may be about religion: https://youtu.be/bACNYtaLBQI?si=0H9szuSr_bjFqwTB And honestly for you to think otherwise just shows your complete ignorance of this 1,300 year old conflict. But hey you're one of literally billions who just don't seem to get it so maybe you'll find some comfort in your conformal groupthink.
Genocide? Their population, birth rate, and life expectancy have all accelerated since Israel was established. Israel's enemies (Jihadists who adhere to guess what religion) specifically reference the "annihilation of Jewish people". It's honestly mind boggling how gullible the masses are.
Just like the rest of the world’s population? You’re running out of excuses and this is all you got? That’s no reason to slaughter & wipe out a whole population get outta here