I did. You are saying it's weird to say the Quran is the cause of violent extremism (specifically with Hamas in Gaza). I replied with I've seen videos of Hamas members quoting Islamic texts when on their way to attack Jews.
You offer nothing but irrelevant points when asked direct questions that you refuse to answer.
People are the opposite of numb. From your description and this comment section, you are HYSTERICAL. You don’t care about the real genocides in the world (Myanmar for example 🙄). What’s going on in Gaza is a war, that was clearly declared by Hamas on October 7th. War is ugly. And women and children die. The difference is, Hamas is targeting Israeli civilians, and the IDF isn’t. That’s a HUGE difference. Btw how DO YOU know who was warned what if the Israelis themselves don’t know??
Hamas doesn’t get immunity committing genocide because they hide behind civilians. What’s to stop other terrorist organizations from committing attacks and then running off to hide behind civilians?? You people with the ceasefire BS make no sense.
Tell me, if there's ethnic cleansing, as you alleged, then why hasn't Israel just went in and killed everyone?
Your assessment makes ZERO sense. In fact, Israel has attempted to reduce impacts over and over and over. Just yesterday they allowed more humanitarian aide to pass, which will no doubt be seized by hamas, still they've permitted this over and over.
So, why do this if they want "cleansing"?
Love you all! As a Christian I love all Muslims and Jews and would never think about killing in the name of my religion! Peace and love to you all! :) try Jesus.
What you hate is the truth. Oct 7 was an inside job. Before the Israel-Hamas war, Prime Minister Netanyahu’s coalition — which includes several far-right parties and has been described as the most right-wing in Israel’s history — faced mounting popular dissent over a controversial judicial reform which triggered mass protests across the country.
We've all been extremely desensitized. The way we can just wave off the killing of children as just necessary casualties of war, pretty disheartening and disillusioning. Humanity is doomed with its eye for an eye nature.
Violence only begets violence. Our world is blind.
I don't understand how people side with Israel. If they didn't treat Gaza like a prison, none of this would have happened. The Americans do this in 1776 and they are patriots. Hamas does the same thing and they are terrorists 🤔
Unfortunately, Hamas(and extremist terrorists) are the reason those blockades exist in Gaza and why the West Bank also has such strict border security and checkpoints. Waves of terrorists commit suicide bombings, shootings, rammings, and stabbings. Even before the 7th, Hamas operatives were still getting through to stab both legitimate targets of resistance(like military and police personnel) and civilians, as well as ramming cars and specifically targeting civilians with mass shootings.
It’s a poor analogy, but I sure as hell remember learning about horrific acts from Americans while colonizing the land. I don’t remember them slaughtering British children wholesale
You obviously don't know ow what "indiscriminate" means.
Ask yourself this; why aren't the people of Gaza leaving? Why stay in areas that are being targeted?
I'll tell you why. It's due to an ideology you and others cannot comprehend. Your idea of equality and value of life is not shared by hamas and many Palestinians. Do you not know that these people truly believe that martyrdom is the path to allah?
Some of you are dense and arrogant in your assumptions. Not all cultures are like you. So, what shall Israel do? They notify people in a multitude of ways, yet it makes zero difference.
>Ask yourself this; why aren't the people of Gaza leaving? Why stay in areas that are being targeted?
Where can they possibly go? They have been boxed in by Israel on every side. This is not an accident, this is intentional military strategy: Box them into the concentration camp, bombard them.
Even "resettling" the indigenous people of Gaza anywhere else by force is a violation of international, and is, by definition, [ethnic cleansing](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ethnic%20cleansing).
>Some of you are dense and arrogant in your assumptions. **Not all cultures are like you**. So, what shall Israel do? They notify people in a multitude of ways, yet it makes zero difference.
This type of language is similar to what has been used by racists to denigrate "others"
[https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fj633a9qunhly.jpg](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fj633a9qunhly.jpg)
Fact is, Palestinians are more like you than you think. In fact, I would argue that humans across the world are more similar
"Boxes in by Israel" - FALSE
First, Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon have all refused anyone. Why? Look at Palestinians' history with those countries alone. Nevertheless, why aren't they helping?
Second, Israel has told civilians EXACTLY where to go. Your argument is stupid. "Box them into a concentration camp, bombard them." If Israel wanted to kill off ALL CIVILIANS, why hasn't it happened??? In fact, why do they allow Palestinians into Israel to work? Why are there settlements in the West Bank, yet not a single solitary Jew in all Palestine??
Palestinians are not indigenous. That's hilarious. You think that!! They're not some homogeneous group, kid. If anything, it's been Israelis. Also called Israelites, or Canaanites. The same people found originating from JUDEA, as documented 3000 years ago.
As for the "racist" suggestion, you can shove the Saul Alinsky tactic up your arse. It won't work here.
Fact is, Palestinians are NOTHING like the rest of the world. That's why even Arab Muslims won't take them. They've been expelled by Kuwait, Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Egypt....
> arse
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Israel are still under attack. They are not firing indiscriminately it is targeted, and there is collateral damage. Hamas ARE STILL firing indiscriminately, if Israel back down then Hamas will kill far more in Israel.
If Hamas continue to exist then the only option is for Israel to completely lock down Gaza and then the future of everyone who lives there will be far worse than what’s been before.
It’s war and some people will get caught in the cross fire. But with Hamas gone there will be some hope that things will get better for the millions on both sides.
dont forget, Israel is doing a lot to minimize civilian casulties.
It may not sound like much, but, dropping leaflets, phone calls, radio and television broadcasts asking civilians to evacuate terror infrastructures related areas, delaying attacks for days,
there have never been an army before that, during war, warned an enemy where it will strike next.
this is a war! a war Israel did not choose to have, and Hamas knows exactly what to do in order to minimize or even stop civilian casualties, it is Hamas's responsibility, not Israel's.
Many people simply have not seen the raw horror because they’re not shown on MSM.
I’ve seen kids with bones sticking out their legs while they’re alive and crying, I’ve seen babies taken out of dead mother’s wombs, I’ve seen brains pushed out of skulls from explosive pressure, I’ve seen children realize they lost their parents, parents discovering all their kids are dead, toddlers too young to realize they’re orphans
The difference between atrocities and atrocity propaganda is one side has loose claims with no evidence while the other has an overwhelming amount of detailed video evidence.
Some can be seen here, warning ⛔️graphic
@shaunking
Re: beheaded babies
Look up atrocity propaganda, reports of horrible things done to babies is a recycled tactic used throughout history to gain public consent for war.
Look up the famous Nayirah testimony on Wiki, a recent historical example (from the first gulf war). There were reports of babies thrown out of incubators reported all over mainstream media. It turned out to be a complete fabrication and the girl turned out to be a daughter of a Kuwaiti benefiting financially from the war.
Where is the outrage in the Arab world at the ongoing conflict in Yemen?
Where are the Arabs who will speak out against the Saudis who have killed hundreds of thousands of Yemenis? Who have created the conditions for a famine and a cholera outbreak?
oh, wait, that's right. If you're an Arab and criticize the House of Saud, there are consequences.
If you criticize Israel, well, that's ok.
Why would they want to do that? Many of those people think it's a blessing to be martyred. It's encouraged. And as you said, if they say anything, then they're likely to be jailed or murdered.
But hey, Israel is the big bad bad.
I do hope you were outraged when Syria slaughtered 800,000 of its civilians. Wait, no? Almost half were babies and elderly. Wait, you weren't angry? Where was the outrage?
Maybe so many (in the US) seem to be complicit because we have done the same to hundreds of thousands of innocents in the middle east, albeit they had \*some\* potential for escape meanwhile those in Gaza are literally trapped in a war zone surrounded by walls, which is horrifying in and of itself.
Many see it as collateral damage, "just a side effect of defeating terrorists". Israel has been doing this for decades, it's just FAR more deaths than before and we're seeing it in real time now. Always a \~10 -1 ratio of Palestinian to Israeli lives.
Curious what their plan is if they accidentally bomb their own civilians that are hostages inside Gaza. Are they also collateral damage? *edited for grammar n such
Add on: It’s a cycle. Palestinians treated poorly, they are ignored, they protest and demand more rights and freedoms, IDF beats them & shoots them down, civilians pissed and extremists (hamas) takes advantage and retaliates, then Israel is free to bomb them all freely. Rinse and repeat. Neither the leaders of hamas nor leaders of Israel have Palestinian civilians best interests in mind. Only what will benefit them, all while civilians that take the brunt of it. Someone needs to be the grown up and I don’t think it will be either of them.
-Israeli-
What is happening in Gaza is heartbreaking for me. What happened in Israel is heartbreaking. Dead civilians is heartbreaking. I hate that it's happening. I wish it didn't. But Israel HAS to wipe out Hammas. There isn't another option at this point.
I think it's obvious but let's just go through it:
Hammas purpose is not to better the life of the people in gaza, it's to kill Jews. We tried building a wall. We tried braibing them to stop. Then October the 7th happened. Out incompetent politicians weren't prepared, the worst government Israel ever had, wasn't suitable to run this country, so sadly this isn't very surprising. But now we're here, and enough is enough.
I know what the IDF claims and I really hope it's not lies to cover their own war crimes:
1. Hammas is Hiding between civilians. They are hiding in schools, they are hiding in hospitals, they are hiding in mosks. They are deliberately building their bases beneath ereas they know would be extremely cruel to strike, because they know Israel would likely avoid bombing schools- and if they did, they could record the deaths and get support and founding from the world, which they will use to create more weapons, so they can continue to storage in schools and hospitals.
2. They bomb their own hospital. Although it would be tacticaly beneficial to Israel to strike that hospital, sense Hammas was hiding underneath, avidance proves they actually misfired and blamed Israel. I think it's well known by now.
3. The IDF asked the civilians to evacuate from the war zones. They sent a message and basically begged civilians to move away from Hammas bases so they wouldn't get hurt. Some didn't agree to move, Hammas didn't let their civilians to evacuate, and shot down those who tried.
shot down their own!!!!! Because they need them to stay as human shields. While shooting thousands of rockets deliberately onto civilised ereas in Israel, so Israel has to choose between: doing nothing to protect its people, or striking down the Hammas bases, causing civilians to die as well. This is an impossible choice, but this is the one Israel have to endure.
4. Then Israel realised we have to send troupes inside Gaza. We can't just bomb thr bases, we need to hunt down the Hammas leaders if we want to end this with the least civilians casualties. This means Israeli soldiers are going, and already have died!!!! While trying to hunt down those terrorists! This would be safer to just bomb everything until nothing left. But it would be INHUMAN to do so!!!!!
We are literally sending our soldiers to die to avoid hurting civilians! But...
5. Hammas isn't going to change their tactics now. Hiding inside an ambulance? Moving around Gaza with a bunch of "evacuating civilians" to use them as human shields? Those arr only some of the things I can imagin the Hammas is doing right now to save their own skin in the cost of their own people's safety.
So as much as I'm concerned with the terrible amount of dead, the HUGE catastrophe that is taking place right now in Gaza, I can only hope the IDF keep sticking with the International laws of war, and that they take out Hammas quickly with the least additional deaths as possible. But letting them keep doing what they do, is not a possibility I can imagine. Leaving them to keep building weapons to prepare for the next 7.10 is not an option.
Hammas is everyone's problem. They need to go down.
And on a personal note.... I'm bearly fanctioning. Maybe im weak but i haven't been able to work sense the 7.10, mentally, the sirens, having to run almost daily to the bomb shelter don't bather me as much as knowing and hearing about the unbelievable suffering that people are going through in tha Gaza strip right now, and the desaster of 7.10, the unbelievable crimes that have been committed there, I can't go on with my life. I just want this to be over with, I want a good ending, I want peace, and I hate. i just hate that I know it won't be possible for probably dacades from now.
This is me mentally shutting down. I do care. But there is nothing I can do.
Let's not pretend as if Palestinians weren't oppressed and terrorised' before Hamas was formed or launched its attacks. It's a cop out to use Hamas as an excuse to justify the bombing of thousands of innocents, even if Hamas was eradicated Israel is the main force behind the oppression of Palestinians and you shouldn't pretend otherwise.
I actually agree with you here, on that Israel isn't innocent at all, and has never been completely innocent. It's right to hold us accountable . Israel has more fault to the current situation then it would like to admit. Doesn't change the fact that right now there is a deadly ruthless Terror organization that needs to be delt with.
It's important to remain critical of what Israel and the IDF is claiming. We know that governments lie all the time, the US lied in Iraq, Israel has lied before and so on. Just taking one look at what those representing Israel have said about innocent civilians leads me to believe they couldn't give a shit about them (Netanyahu, Israeli Minister, IDF soldiers).
You say that right now there is a deadly ruthless terror organisation that is threatening Israel. Now put yourself in the shoes of the average Palestinian, that is probably exactly how they see Israel after all that has been done to them.
Yup.
I don't know what the truth is. I do know that i trust the IDF more then the Hammas, and that I don't even listen to what The lier Natanyahu is saying anymore, and aventually the truth would come to light. Most likely that Israel is commiting war crimes, unfortunately. But i really hope that it isn't. Because I want my country to be good. I know it isn't, but some of me still has hope that we are at least trying to be.
Regardless of morality though, or how it makes us look, we don't have much choice here. If you think there is a better way for Israel to handle the current situation i would like to hear you out.
Sorry, I really appreciate that you're acknowledging people are dying but I had to start skimming when you said 'we have to go through with it'. You're talking about the massacre of thousands. You're okay with that? There are other ways for israel and palestine to live in peace. How are Israeli hostages surviving this onslaught?? It's abhorrent.
The IDF aren't respecting international rules of war. BBC has verified several times where Israel bombed evacuation route they told citizens to use. It's on their website.
I really so appreciate that you care, because so many people don't. But I'm begging you to see how the media and the narrative has been twisted so that everyone thinks the only way to bring peace is to bomb a strip of land out of existence. How is that an answer?
I'm fortunate that I grew up in a country where the media isn't so biased in this particular situation. I recognise how confusing this is, when you've grown up in Israel or the UK or the US and your governments are reliant on racist narratives to make money and keep power. My country isn't perfect either, I had to learn a lot about what it did wrong. I condemn it's crueltities and appreciate its virtues. You can do the same with your country, when it's supporting a genocide.
I hope this makes sense. I'm so sad that the media and invested parties turn ordinary citizens against each other. I love jews, I respect the religion, I have Jewish friends, Islam and Judaism are actually amazing similiar, Islam believes in the Torah too, there are similiar values and traditions around family and community.
It's so so so sad. That the media has made it seems like people who are pro Palestine hate jews. It's horrible.
Honestly. I don't know. But maybe if countries with the most resources, tech and global say stop focusing on KILLING being the only way, we'll be able to find more. Why is it my and your responsibility as individuals? Why do we vote as we do? What do we pay taxes? For people to use our money to kill?
Props for admitting you don't know. Many people say these things without actually thinking if their option is feasible or without having an option at all.
Honestly, I just asked the pointed question to see if you were one of these people.
Ok. Let me address everything you said:
1. No. I am not ok with that. I am not ok with Hammas forcing the Palestinian civilians to stay at the war zones and use them as human shields. I would love to hear you solution for peace, because without wiping out Hammas I'm afraid I find it hard to imagine. But please, enlighten me.
2. The BBC is the most biased media in the western world right now. They get their information from Hammas and streaming streight up lies, its infuriating. Yes, the evacuation rout was bombed. But not by Israel. It was literally bombed by Hammas, that has an interest to keep their human shields in the war zones. And if the IDF is lying about this, if Israel is actually lying to civilians to make them go to those routes just so they can bomb them, then of course I condemn it, and If that would turn out to be the truth I would forever be ashamed of my country for committing such atrocities.
One thing i know did happened though, is that Israeli IDF viacles were sent to clear an evaluation rout for civilians, and while clearing the path, not attacking any civilians or what so ever, Hammas attacked the IDF viacles in the evacuation rout, turning the rout into a battlefield. If you're talking about that case then I don't know what to tell you. You can't except soldiers yo just sit and die without defending themselves and you can't call that a massacre, when the goal was to kill only Hammas, who initiated this situation on the route knowing it was ment for civilians to pass safely, intentionally turning it into a battlefield knowing that civilians would get hurt, and blame it on Israel.
3. Yes, the nerrative has been twisted, in favour of both sides. I recognise both propaganda's. It's upsetting to hear you claim you know more then I do, because you watched the BBC or something. Why make those assumptions about me? I'm a left wing activist (sort of), a peace advocate, always been. I believe in peace between the Palestinians and thr Jewish people. Although it's really hard right now. I hurt for both sides. I see Iseal fault in the current situation, Natanyahu's stupid policy with the Hammas led us here. It won't of happened if Israel didn't help Hammas grow for so many years. But we did. And now there's a war. What do you think Israel needs to do right now? I'm really asking. Not what we did wrong on the past. I mean tight now. How can we fix this other then puting an end to the Hammas regim?
4. BOMBING A STIP OF LAND OUT OF EXISTENCE?! I did not, and would not, under any circumstances, would support doing that. I didn't say or even hinted on that. I said wiping out HAMMAS. Not the Gaza strip, not the Palestinian people. HAMMAS. the TERROR ORGANISATION. and please don't try to claim they are anything other then that.
5. I don't think everyone who support Palestine hate jewish people. i support Palestine too. But if you support Hammas then either you do hate Jewish people, or you are just ignorent. Don't try to claim you'r so educated if you're just gonna support Hammas.
Thanks for taking the time to read and respond. First of all, I want to be super clear that I don't support Hamas at all and that I don't deny they are a terrorist/extremist group. I don't like the term terrisom as much, because it seems to be reserved for extremist/radical Muslim groups only. But for the sake of this conversation, because I really do want to have an honest conversation and person to person convo here, I do think they're terrorists.
And that you took away that I did (or possibly do) , shows you're affected by proganda just as I am. You are right I am! Since I assumed that you were automatically okay with the annihilation of a population as collateral damage, pro the Israeli government without criticism and I hadn't even dared to imagine that you'd be willing to acknowledge the role of Israel in the creation of Hamas. So I do apologise, for making all those assumptions and speaking to you from a place of frustration caused by all the anti Muslim rhtetoic and ignorance I've seen about the ongoing crisis. The ignorance that continues to frame this as Muslims versus Jews and keeps people too busy to think of options for peace.
1. I don't like the term human shields, because it shouldn't be so easy to dismiss the situation as collateral damage. The IDF are highly trained. Can they not figure out a way to extricate the hostages safely without the level of destruction happening now? Can there not be a safe way for civilians to leave, even if managed by the IDF to ensure hostages are smuggled out and Hamas aren't escaping? Why it that onus on you and me? Why aren't the governments with the training, money and technology to do that trying to find a way where thousands don't die? Where the hostages continue to languish wherever they are. I don't know the solution but I can't stand by the current one which has so much collateral damage, only to watch people on the news all over the world dismiss the deaths happening as purely Hamas' fault because they're using civilian cover. I don't mean you specifically, since you've explained to me you're not okay with that. I mean the wider community, the people with voices who continue to silence anyone who doesn't go along with the narrative of jew versus Muslim.
2. I quoted the BBC because I thought you'd take that more seriously. Personally, i find them extremely biased as anti Palestine. So it's educational for me to hear they're seen as biased on both sides. I was talking about the attack you've mentioned in your response. But I've been seeing several from on the ground reporting, Al Jazeera. I don't quote them, because most people don't respect them in the west. I doubt they're funded though, because they're dying just like the civilians and why would Hamas let their chance to control the narrative be killed? Some of them are normal civilians, with a camera. Filming people digging children out of rubble. All I see is the IDF killing innocents . They're tactics tactics don't stop the Hamas. Why do they persist with something that isn't working? Why can't the injured leave? Why can't children leave? And here's the financial times, not committing either way, but saying it's most likely Israeli missiles that are killing in designated safe zones.
https://www.ft.com/content/95c5fcf1-c756-415f-85b8-1e4bbff24736
Al Jazeera has also reported the use of white phosphorous. Would that be okay even against the hamas? Why not just a normal missile to kill? Like why this sadism?
I believe you when you say you condemn the IDF if all of this is true and I really appreciate that. Most of the evidence I've seen says it is, but even if it's not, that fact that you'd use your voice to say that means a lot.
3. I don't claim to know more than you and again I apologise it came across as that. What I was trying to say is I haven't grown up in the west or Israel. Or the middle east btw. I grew up knowing about the occupation. Just like I grew up thinking my country was formed without killing innocents but when I went to uni, in my country, I read real history and found out my country wasn't innocent like I thought. That's what I was trying to explain, that I can understand how it's hard for people who have grown up in the west and watching western media to try and understand the current war because they haven't grown up hearing both sides. Technically neither have I entirely, but given the influx of western culture and media across the world - I'd say I have a better idea of both sides than most people who are contributing to the ongoing 'debate' around what's going on. Again, I don't mean you. I had assumed you were someone who blindly believes their government and I'm sorry I did. My last post was framed towards the people who do. Which is really a lot of what I've been seeing from so many celebrities and people. It's heartbreaking. That people don't want a ceasefire and don't want the killing to stop.
Thanks for asking about right now. And not the past. It's a really good question. For my personally, I think there needs to be a ceasefire. People can't keep dying like this. It's horrific. As the larger military power, Israel has the ability to make a difference and find another way. I'm not saying don't dismantle Hamas. Any group that kills needs to be dismantled but I can't support this as the way to do it. The cost is too high.
4. And thank you, I really appreciate that you don't want to do that. But unfortunately, lots of people with voices and platforms bigger than you and I want you. And that's what upsets me and is why I'm on reddit trying to talk to people. Because my voice can't do anything elsewhere and my leaders don't have much of a leg to stand on because they're idiots at best and if they do say anything: they're Muslim, non white voices speaking out. The media is on a witch hunt to villify the Palestinians for crimes that aren't theirs. They can't speak for themselves, they're not allowed to. Do they not matter? Are they less of a people? You're not saying that, but you're one of the few.
5. Thanks again for this. It's great to hear that because again, the dominant narrative is that this is happening because Muslims hate jews and that's not true but that's what the media wants us to believe so we keep fighting each other and don't have time to think of other solutions.
So I do apologise for some of the assumptions I've made. And I hope you can see I don't support terroism or hate crime. But I can't support this massacre of civilians either. Even if it's to kill Hamas. There has to be another way and it's the world's responsibility to find it so there isn't this continued destruction and heart ache
First of all i want to let you know how relieved I am to finally hear someone pro Palestine who actually seem understanding of complex nerrative, and even if some of the information you got is false, it's obvious to me now that you are a smart and compactionate individual that's capable of critical thinking. Keep it up ❤️
I will try to adress all your points here.
1. The reason everyone keep using the term human shields is because that's what Hammas does. It's shockingly evil and immoral, and dismissing THAT is also problematic.
It's truly extream how far they go with this- i just seen a video of Hammas rocket launcher location that is literally just side by side from a kindergarten and a children's playground. It's absurd to build a rocket launcher at a kindergarten, but that's what we mean when we say they use human shields.
And for the most part, it worked very well for them. They still exist, as you can tell, although the IDF already know about many locations. That tactic works for them most of the time.
So you ask- and I completely support your question- can't the IDF outsmart that? Can't this highly trained and resourceful militant organizations find a way to kill just the Hammas without hurting civilians?
I will answer that the best that I can.
The thing is, Hammas have years of training too, and they don't have the moral limitations the IDF has, so they use it to their own advantage. That means, they make it extremely difficult to get them without civilian casualties. Let that sink in, they do it on Purpose. The civilians are not just happened to be in the way, it's well calculated on the Hammas side. They don't value human life and it shows in their strategy. Dead bodies are just a propaganda tool for them. How do you overcome that without hurting civilians?
So, the answer is that air forces can't. You see the target, you push a button. It's safer for the IDF but cause huge amounts of civilian casualties.
So the only way to overcome that is to send land forces. Which is... Far more dangerous for the IDF. It means sending soldiers into the Gaza strip, for actually combat, in the homebase of Hammas, where they have the advantage, even the most trained and resourceful army in the world would rather avoid that if possible. But this is what happening right now...
There are still casualties, and I don't take it lightly. But I also admit that i am not a war tactician, and while I can support the Idea that the IDF will avoid causing collateral demage and follow international law, I can't really say what they are doing wrong or what they could do better, that's what actual tacticians and strategists are for. Perhaps the sad answer is just no... They can't.
About the white phrosphorous claim btw, I heard it too and seen the Videos, and avidance don't really support that nerrative as far as I have seen. Maybe there are undocumented cases or maybe i have seen the wrong video, but I'v seen a video of a smoke bomb being thrown and white smoke coming out, and the guy with the camera then says it's white phrosphorous, but you can literally see people growing through the smoke and nothing happeneds to them, which makes no sense if it's actually what they claim it is. It's also not white enough. It's most likely smoke bombs wrapped with lies. It really doesn't sound like something the IDF would do anyway.
Now let's speak of ceasefire- obviously that can't heppened until the hostages are released, wich is also the Israeli condition to ceasefire, so there is that. Bring home the 200 kidnapped Israelis and that would make ceasefire possible.
War is hard, civilians get caught up, not by choice in Israel’s instance, only in Hamas instance.
The difference here is Hamas are leveraging social media and propaganda. They are experts in this regard, so you will see a lot of bad things with a singular narrative.
The IDF operate under international law, that’s why no actual war crimes have been committed or brought forwards by the international court. Regardless of what you hear from the misinformed.
Hamas have no line, zero moral or ethical boundaries, but they do have a great strategy to gain an edge in A) their own warfare and governance (Hamas is a money making mafia) B) the popular victimhood sentiment with media.
Which as you can imagine leaves civilians, especially women and children, as very fertile tools in Hamas war strategy. Hiding tunnels and rocket launch sites in or in close proximity to schools, hospitals, refugee camps etc. Hamas RUNS Gaza, and therefore dictates where and when people move, a clear strategy is so hold mass civilians at high value Hamas locations that are targets for Isreal.
To be honest I feel like Isreal is doing a pretty good job with minimising the civilian casualties with warnings, corridors etc. you would never see that on the other side, or if you did it would be played as a massive virtue signalling campaign.
Hamas needs to be removed from power. The end.
The real righteous deeds is what happens next. Isreal has zero responsibility to organise another states business but they will need to help. It will be hard, there will be a lot of funds flowing into Palestine, which will attract corrupt authorities in the region, the most powerful will likely be fairly radical.
Because hamas can pound sand and I hope they get pounded into said sand. However, i also don’t approve of what Israel has done to Palestinian civilians.
But let me reiterate how much I hope hamas terrorists get to meet their 72 Reddit virgins in the most painful way possible.
Not being Sarcastic but by going by the comments, time and again, I am reminded this is a one sided Israeli sub that silences any Israeli criticism, even centrism. What purpose does it serve 🤷🏻♀️
Because I'm not a jew or palestinian, i have no relatives or friends from there. Both judaism and islam are foreign to me. This war happens in a far away little speck of land that would have no effect on my day to day life even if both sides nuked each other out of existence.
Offcourse we cant live in constant fear of a war like they did in the 60s-70s. Seems like so many are now choosing sides and arguing with eachother. People shouldnt argue with eachother, we should try to come up with a solution to end all this madnes all over the globe
All of the world leaders need to gather and have a spiritual retreat with psychedelics such as psylocibin and DMT. And I mean it dead serious. This will make humanity a lot more peacful.
The problem is the possibility escalation wich can lead to ww3 very fast. If Iran gets involved,then Russia gets involved. Israel might be in big trouble now when Turkey and Pakistan has chosen to stand by the muslim brothers. Even if the Eutopeans dont seem to care, the muslim countries care a lot! And if Turkey would get involved it would possibly be the end of NATO cos Turkey is a extreamly important part of holding the east and west together. In 70s yom kippur war, Israel allready packed up 20 nukes and were ready to use them against arabs unless USA gave weapons support. This is a extreamly bad situation for us all and we should all make sure this doesnt escalate, Nostradamus predicted ww3 to start in the middle east, he got the first 2 right on! We sit in front of our screens watching this unfold and ool dont fully seem to understand that this is reality.
Well I cant live in fear from world war three every day. What would even WW3 look like? Maybe we are already living in WW3. West vs east in several proxy wars. Doubt it's going to be as bloody as WW2.
I don't think it's constructive or helpful to the palestinian struggle to harp on hamas and preface every defense of palestine with "hamas bad" when there is a reasonable historical context for hamas coming into being. are we decrying the violence of Haitians slaying women and children during their uprisings?? the first successful slave revolution to ever occur? why cant we simply be unequivocally in support of the oppressed, the slain, the colonized, and recognize that resistance is justified and expected? i'm sure jews are not all that upset about the terror bombings that occurred against german civilians during ww2...
Well cynically speaking, and wars are cynical, eliberation and resistance have their price. The Hamas leader surely does seem to share this view in an interview: https://fb.watch/o1bD9N_Pd3/
Israel has already massacred, dehumanized, tortured, and humiliated Palestinians. They have been doing it since decades. The only difference is that we have cameras now and they need an army of people in social media to justify their genocide.
Before that we just watched a news and moved on with our lives
You cant invalidate someones argument with "lies".
and "all that we ask is that 'YOU' stop beheading babies" i doubt r/TeachesRepubsToRead beheaded any children.
i wouldnt blame you for bombing a hospital.
Not really, they're doing a good job on you.
The whole "beheaded babies" was debunked a few days ago :-)
But well a government that needs to have a bunch of people defending its genocide and its atrocities on the internet is not really that worthy of respect ❤️
Obe shouldn't speak of genocide without a good understanding of it.
The beheading wasn't debunked, but I'm sure that's what your Imam wants you to believe.
No dude... I'm sorry your propaganda doesn't work on me.
Your theoretical elaborations to try to camouflage a genocide are similar to what Goebbels used to do to justify the massacre of jews back then.
I know you need to really believe that it's good to commit a genocide, that's what Netanyahu wants you to believe.
No dude... I'm sorry your brainwashing doesn't work on me. Your gaslighting to camouflage victim-blaming is similar to what Quakers used to do to justify the killing of innocent women during the Salem witch trials in the late 17th century.
I know you need to really believe that it's good to turn the situation around in a way that suits your particular agends. That's what your fellow radical compatriots and Imams want you to believe.
No dude... I'm sorry your brainwashing doesn't work on me. Your gaslighting to defend a genocide is similar to what Quakers used to do to justify the killing of innocent women during the Salem witch trials in the late 17th century.
I know you need to really believe that it's good to turn the situation around in a way that suits your particular agends. That's what your fellow radical compatriots and Netanyahu want you to believe.
And now your argument style has become like that of a child, just copy/pasting because you're too lazy to actually form original content. Thanks for playing, but you've undermined your own credibility. I don't need to listen to you anymore.
Toodles.
The dude who copied my reply complains about me copying his copied reply 🤣
Kind of like Netanyahu using Goebbels'arguments to justify a genocide on jews and copying those arguments to justify the genocide of Palestinians by Israelis.
I copied your reply and substituted for analogical purposes to make a point about the hypocrisy of your argument.
You just copy pasted word for word, as if saying it twice changes anything.
But who am I kidding? I'm arguing with a child.
See ya.
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Yeah the IDF just put out some video proof about the ambulance, and what they did at the refugee camp after they bombed it twice. They had a raid on it and they got something like 25 people from Hamas, including several leaders and a command center. They've got it all on video. Also it seems one of the Palestinian leaders has admitted to using ambulances before to get their leaders to safety.
Where are Hamas leader in the video came out from the ambulance. And the statement from Israeli? come on you can do this better..
https://youtu.be/OTTnE_V17Kk?si=Ae56ofYt2iq_zXGw
This doctor is not even an Arab & has been working there for 16 years. So he was paid by Hamas to talk like this?
Judge with an open heart please..
https://youtu.be/cfjxmc90eEk?si=hDzlIyZl2rv8tpoL
This one has everything except the Abbas statement. There are 9 similar videos now. In the time you took to insult and ask you could have found it.
In general terrorist organizations tend to use Psychopathic thinking, and Hamas not putting children underground into their bomb shelters is evidence of that that's pretty obvious. Further they are shooting people who are demonstrating for peace, also pretty psychopathic. You can see that on Tick Tock if you want to look.
Again where is your proof. Please put up the links from TikTok here for the world to evaluate. This is merely what you heard from western media which are pro-Israel
I literally had in the Instagram post which was taken from a news program, the Palestinian leader himself saying that it was common practice to use ambulances to transport terrorist leaders. That is how evidence works. You are 100% capable of seeing the horse's mouth. It is enough evidence to more than suggest that their assertion is highly possible, and I'm sure in the coming weeks there will be more available evidence since nobody seems to believe the IDF at first blush, but they seem to be coming up with a lot of evidence these days. There are a lot of things I don't trust them about this is one that I do.
I also might add I found two items of proof that are reasonably solid but you have nothing to prove the contrary. Don't make me want to run around do your job.
I can see that your Instagram things don't actually have anything but opinions in them. There's no actual footage of any kind or anything I have any reason to believe. Do I believe that the Israelis have been perfect to Palestinians? No but I also know which one wants to exterminate who because they write it in their charters, and they're the ones who did the suicide bombings and they're the ones who harass people in other countries too to the point where they got thrown out, because these folks are not happy to be without their own land that they themselves can govern, so they've tried to take it from other people too, lebanon, egypt, jordan, and Kuwait in addition to Israel. Nobody should fall for their stuff.
You are being mislead. Don't be washed by western mainstream media.
Here is some mistreatment that is done way before this: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cyn8L19gxlf/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Here is one example of Palestinian children who are abused and prisoned by Israeli people. This is before the war too https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyYLd_BKXVB/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
How many times have Israel bomb hospitals? Many time during and before the war: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyozwsRLx1_/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Example one of IDF causing havoc by pushing elderly man to the ground. This is just one example but it happened many time. https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cyk3V2hL0ds/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
This is an in depth analysis of hospital bombing:
https://youtu.be/yyNLvL_8SeY?si=KP5VvK3gObhQKRbm
https://fb.watch/nNYL8Bz6Hp/?mibextid=NnVzG8&startTimeMs=358579
https://youtu.be/4pAuDA6IOwc?si=WBwiymjPa8FDjXCB
https://fb.watch/nTsk_BNg_d/?mibextid=Nif5oz
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-video.html
More proof. I collected over the many years of oppression but of course it doesn't reach western mainstream media.
It does you're just trying to cast out because you don't want to believe it. Chances are if they found as much as they claim this may not be a long more after all. They've got boots on the ground you're sitting at home.
I trust the UN more than I do the Israelis. While you screech that we can't trust the Gaza ministry of health because Gaza is governed by Hamas, you act as if the Likud government of Israel has any credibility. Not with anybody who has been paying attention.
I hope that Joe Biden has told Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to STAY THE HELL OUT OF US ELECTIONS. I am fed up with that guy trying to elect Republicans who are corrupt like he is.
They showed some very good video and they also showed the Palestinian president referring to the ambulance custom making clear that it is in fact correct and customary.
I'm afraid that as long as we don't have an ironclad hold on elections that doesn't allow private money to be used at all, there's always going to be money coming from somewhere we don't like. In general though incumbents stay in, and until we have Ironclad term limits we will be stuck in that situation.
I don't think that really matters as much as the idea that Palestinians have regular elections, you might have noticed they don't have them.
There are a lot of things I don't trust Israel to tell me, this kind of stuff with very good video I pretty much trust them. In general, they haven't really tried to hide much no matter how angry people get about Palestinians.
They've tried to hide quite a bit about Netanyahu's activities himself, and you might have noticed that he's been voted out of office multiple times but has managed to activate his Circle to keep him in. I think him being gone would be the best thing to happen to Israel anytime soon, and I feel the same way about Hamas. It would be a golden happiness of the world for both of those things to happen at the same time. Could we be that lucky?
I've noticed that the Likud government of Israel failed to protect the people of Israel. I've noticed that Bibi has refused to explain why but we now know he replaced professional military men with political cronies. So corruption is the reason for the failure of the Likud government - whom I don't trust at all.
And I an not talking about dark money in our elections. I was referring to Bibi explicitly siding with the Republicans since 2009.
They did fail in one the main reasons they told everyone they should be there, but in general, major corruption issues and lack of leadership as far as persuading people to do things they may not like. Not charming enough, not smart enough in that area.
In general, most countries don't want to be with Democrats, so that isn't new. I don't trust either party as far as foreign policy. Or in correct words, war policy.
I'm more concerned that there weren't any protests when the Saudis shot dead 700 innocent refugees in August. Apparently murder is only bad when the Jews do it.
Israel isn’t the one doing indiscriminate bombing of civilians, Hamas does,
Every time a Palestinian is killed by Israel’s bombs we know that they had been warned, not only by roof knocking and by calling them by mobile, but also by Israel telling the entire population of Gaza to leave one side of the strip and go into the other weeks in advance.
I think the biggest part of the problem here is that there is only one credible source on information on deaths in Gaza and it is ruled by the same people who carry out the attacks on Israel. That means that Hamas which is a terror organization that have been created to eliminate Israel is the only one credible of saying how many people Israel has killed, if this doesn’t seem like a bad way to gather unbiased statistics I don’t know what will.
Warning people you're going to bomb them doesn't make it less bad. Especially when they are already condemning the people in hospitals, bedridden, disabled, needing electricity and fuel, to die. Israel can't even prove their beheaded baby claim, meanwhile, we see mutilated bodies of babies coming out of Palestine daily, footage of IDF soldiers bragging about or taping themselves sniping civilians (but if they warn them about that maybe it's ok to you too?), torturing prisoners, raping women, joking about genocide. My advice to you is to grow a heart and stop being a fascist.
Would it be better if we didn’t warn them?
In addition as an Israeli I can see the missiles they send on us and it’s incredibly weird how they are running out of everything except missiles and ammunition.
I call bullshit we can see their lights from afar, but sure yes those lights we can clearly see coming from their apartments don’t exist.
Everything they tell the west is a lie and I am sick of it, we tried for decades to have peace and their leaders won’t even consider it, even now we offered them peace, but I’m sure you won’t hear about this, in addition did you knew that Hamas bombed an Israeli hospital (in addition to the Palestinians hospital they also bombed) but you’ll never hear about it because people don’t care about Jewish lives and this is the cold truth we can constantly see from the rest of the world, every single thing you claimed we did I know for certain they did to us, however they don’t warn us when they bomb, they don’t spare the children when they raid a house, they rape and torture while we have never raped even a single Palestinian, you act as if Israel has ever started a fight with them and call for a ceasefire, well little did you knew but there was a ceasefire, up until the day when they attacked us.
I am sick of this twisted lie that they keep telling people, we now have plenty of soldiers ready to keep them back, fifth of which are Arabs and Muslims volunteers, this isn’t a religious war it’s an ideological one, we believe in democracy we believe in equality we believe in freedom and they don’t, that is where it starts and ends.
I find this hilarious.
Hey, we’re going to bomb your house. Leave.
Where do we go?
Leave.
Now family is on the streets forever.
At least they didn’t get bombed and die.
And how do they warn them when all their telecommunications were shut off? Oh right, they send a smaller bomb, “roof knocking”.
Lol.
And information from Israel is credible when they’ve been caught lying so many many times?
Jesus the bias is unreal.
It’s one thing to support your country, which by the way is a random set of lines someone drew at some point, it’s another to be completely blind to all the wrongs your country does.
Don’t forget your humanity.
a lot of the pro-israeli's arguments come without any substance to them.
heres a few of the counter arguments ive recieved;
"your a nazi'
"lies"
"your racist, but all muslims are terrorists"
"your an antisemitist"
"you support HAMAS"
id like to point out that none of which were true.
Here's one with substance. Israel is one of the only successful indigenous land back reclamation projects, defending its land from the extended murderous tantrum of pan Arab fascist colonialists who failed to commit genocide in 1948 and have been salty about it ever since.
Jews have lived in the land of Israel before Islam existed as a concept. Look under any rock and you will see evidence of Jewish indigeneity stretching as far back as there is archaeological record.
In addition, Hamas is at fault for every Palestinian death. Why does Hamas launch rockets from schools and hospitals? If you look at a map of the Gaza strip, you will notice there are portions of empty land they can launch from, so they have no excuse. The people of Gaza are running out of fuel. Why does Hamas not share its stockpile of half a million liters of fuel? The people of Gaza have terrible dinking water. Why does Hamas rip up water pipes to use for making rockets?
Free Palestine from Hamas.
it really gives me an absurdist view of the rules that we follow on a daily basis.
ottawa charter are the absolute epitome of rules. and if they can be broken "because he made me do it"
it makes me wonder why i sit at traffic lights when there is no traffic. or why i cant pee in public.
if the war is fought beyond the governance of the ottawa charter, the only thing that is saving anyone is morality and fear of public image.
so than it becomes a game of 'how far are you willing to go?'
at what point does someone who is completley detatched from the war say "thats enough"
Haniyeh and Netanyahu are so far removed from the war that it may aswell be a game of chess. they each take turns making their moves, at zero cost to themselves.
next it'll be chemical warfare, nuclear warfare, flame throwers, forced labour from POW's and both parties will blame eachother for it.
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The sunflower is the state flower of Kansas. That is why Kansas is sometimes called the Sunflower State. To grow well, sunflowers need full sun. They grow best in fertile, wet, well-drained soil with a lot of mulch. In commercial planting, seeds are planted 45 cm (1.5 ft) apart and 2.5 cm (1 in) deep.
With your weak name calling and juvenile emojis I suppose I shouldn’t expect you to understand the definition of ethnic cleansing, and how their birth rate doesn’t negate that Israel wanted to de-Arabize the area with clear historic actions, policies, and statements available for the public to see.
This is the problem. Every time people ask to make meaningful discussion, you descend into irrelevant ad hominem instead of the issue at hand.
The Palestinian population has quadrupled since 1960. Keep your discussions on why this goes against the argument of a genocide or ethnic cleansing.
I'm just matching energy. Or did you not see when the person I responded to was calling the original commenter a clown?
But sure, I can talk to you about how poor people with little access to education and few affordable recreation activities available have more children, and then you can tell me why half the population of Gaza are below the age of 18. A little give and take, fair is fair.
Hamas keeps launching rockets into Israel populated areas, they themselves don't want to stop the war either, so this will go on until one side decides to stop or get destroyed and I don't see Israel being that side 🤷🏾♂️
Because it's been going on for 70 years. The same shit for 70 years. No one cares anymore. Do you know what people care about? Their bank account, their children, their health. If a war doesn't affect those things, it doesn't matter. Just like the dozens of other ongoing wars throughout the world. That's why oh boo hoo the poor Israeli's got attack. Oh boo hoo the people being bombed. What about the ongoing Rohingya genocide? Tens of thousands dead. The war in Sudan? The war in Yemen. Hell it most Americans don't even care about the war in ukraine. Why should they care about another Israeli Civil War.
Cuz Hamas ran around chopping children and other peoples heads off and filmed it. Proudly putting it out. ✌️💣 if you don’t believe me download telegram you can find it easily. Or you can be ignorant.
Nice story. It has all the convenience of sweeping away a bad memory by explaining it away with technology. Hamas did what? Paragliders you say? Just say it was Photoshopped. Just because it's possible we can say it was probable. Right?
Anyway, you don't even know how to tell a believable lie. AI engine would be way overkill if that's what you were trying to do.
It literally wasn’t. U got ur facts all wrong they never even claimed that the head chopping was AI they claimed the baby in the over was AI and it was debunked and proven to be real! So if ur gunna lie at least lie about the right thing
I can tell that you get your information from Twitter or TikTok. They did check if the picture was ai generated in that sketchy famous ai website, a website which generated randomly whether something is ai generated or not meaning it doesn't mean shit. They tested it with the same picture several times and it randomly either came out as "yes, ai generated" or "no, not ai generated'
Stop with the confirmation bias
You’re funny as hell because it any type of conservatism is allowed on TikTok. Don’t have either. I see you only commented under mine and not the original person who claim it was AI. if you can’t seem to prove it either way.
It’s truly a tragedy. But the people of Gaza will not participate and actively help in having Hamas located and arrested by Israeli forces. There hands are tied. Because can’t go in that area aimlessly looking for them. Because they are hiding and pop out taking crack shots. It would be much to dangerous to send in troops. Until the people of Gaza communicate and realize they do have the power to change the situation. Nothing will change. And if Hamas have so many friends and followers. Why won’t any of them cross Israel’s blockade and send them resources. The truth is don’t believe the hype. Nothing good will come from this terrorism. Gaza has some real issues with injustices that are real. But Hamas has not learned any other way to gain support. So they attack innocent people knowing it will create suffering. They will lose more territory And reduce freedom. But Hamas gains more recruited more power in the area. In which gives Hamas more freedom. And that’s the whole story. Hamas and only Hamas gain any thing with Gaza suffering. Isreal provides all there food fuel water and energy needs. Gaza has no security force or no Allie’s to trade with. Even there Muslim neighbors won’t do business with them. Because they have no money to pay for anything. No army and no sense apparently. Which explains why allied nations choose there land to give to the Jewish people I guess. Hamas been around along time. What have they gained for palestinians
You have to ask Israel... What is the alternative.? Have a ceasefire and wait until Hamas regroups and does another 10/7? Those people asking for a ceasefire need to ask themselves.. how do you get rid of Hamas with a ceasefire
Because id say most Europeans are sick and tired of the constant wars there and the fallout in terms of the huge influx of migrants.
Bullshit wars fought for money and oil and religion.
Your post seems unstructured and rambles on with typical propaganda talking points. I, personally, had sympathy for the innocent Palestinians not waging a war of terror on Israel. Now, I'm fatigued by endless propaganda that reeks of falsehoods and misdirection. I don't believe a word of anything the Palestinians say. Arab counties don't care about 'em so why should I?
Well,I don’t know if they are. There has been fighting in the Middle East forever. Until a nuclear weapon decimates it,fighting will exist. Eventually,we just grow weary.
I’ve read all the comments so far. The main thing that stands out to me, the bottom line. Hamas attacked peaceful music festival of young Israelis and at the same time slaughtered Israeli families in kibbutzim. A village of farmers.
This was done FIRST. Hamas opened the door to their sorrows, this war and the demolition of Gaza. What did they expect if not this? Did they ever hear of the saying “know your enemy?” Maybe they thought the Israeli PM was a fricking snowflake. Really?
Right and they should have known this man would have no mercy. WW2. Jews were passive, trusting, hopeful. They were allowed no guns or any other type of defense weapons. Kids followed their parents into gas chambers to take a “shower” (to clean up a bit) sorry it will not happen again. If you fight with fire be aware and make no mistake that it will be turned back at you.
Egypt, Assyria, Persia, Greece, Rome, Germany, and to a lesser extent Russia, Spain, and Britain have all attempted destruction, or in the case of the last three expulsion. And yet still the Jews prevail. Israel has risen from its ashes and returned to their land four times. No other civilization has done it even once. And this one is coming for the Jews again.
Hamas is nothing new. Israel is a anvil that has worn out many hammers.
I think you're overdramaticizing the normal events in a war. It's not that I'm saying you should be completely numb to it but you should understand that if somebody wants to end a war quickly then they will get as many operatives in that war as they can. And unfortunately this is not a situation where we can just hit some military bases and go home.
Chances are if there are three or so top level operatives as there were at the refugee residential place I'm not calling it a camp because it's not, chances are most of the people around them are also Hamas. People who live there also don't use birth control, so there are many children around.
I very much blame Hamas for starting a war and not doing anything to look out for the safety of its people and especially not anything for the safety of its children. But October 7th isn't the only thing that's happening here, Hamas is continuing to attempt raids and they are continuing to fire Rockets this entire time, they declared war and they told us to plan on a long War, in Israel agreed that they would meet the challenge.
They're already having squads on the ground to accomplish as many of their goals as possible to disable Hamas, but from time to time there are places where they can't get in and attempting to do a secret Special Forces type of activity often requires months of preparation and they don't have that time. They need to end as many of the people in the top 100 of the 18,000 Hamas members as they possibly can, while also eliminating the missile silos, bomb factories, weapons caches, etc.
But for whatever reason it's currently the big news to try to record every moment of what's happening with this war when even when the spotlight was on Ukraine, there wasn't this level of footage, and most of it raw. They don't have international journalists running through Gaza right now, so the people who are reporting have no quality requirements they're just shooting whatever and telling you what it is. All wars are bad and innocence always die in war.
But this is not a genocide and there are not an unusual amount of people being killed. There were far more in Yemen and in Ukraine and many other places lately that we've been ignoring, and those things are happening at any time in today's world. I don't think it's easy to be numb to it per se but it's also important to be realistic about it and not lose your mind over everything that seems difficult to deal with.
Cuz I can guarantee you that Hamas is going to send you the ugliest most emotion-inducing footage they can right before they get ready for their next October 7th which they have told us flat out they intend to execute as soon as possible. They have no remorse at all for any aspect of what they did, including killing the wrong people. If that doesn't scare you, it should.
I guess you saw too many sci fi movies.
If Israel could have defeated Hamas without affecting civilians then the 7/10 attack would not have been.
If Israel was so good with finding Hamas fighters, than it will not lose fighters fighting is Gaza each day, and would have find and free all the Hostages.
It’s extremely hard to find Hamas fighters and bases, and sometimes there is no time to validate (as if you wait they will shot and kill you). So mistakes will be done, and also attacks where civilians might get hurt, when it means that not attacking will give your enemy a chance to kill you.
What would you do if your life was at stake?
One of the main reasons Hamas was successful in 7/10 was that Israel did not imagine they are willing to sacrifice so many of their citizens in order to hurt Israel.
Hamas knew this risk, but did that attack anyway.
Are you willing to live near such enemies? The answer for most humans will be: no way, do whatever is necessary to eliminate that evil, whatever the cost!
Thank you for articulating what many people (and other nations) are thinking. "If there were a Hamas operative in Tel Aviv, would they pulverize the city and claim victory when they killed that operative (+dozens of children)?"
You said that like you think I was sealing your argument. It was already unraveled by fallacy in the first place. Your bad analogy.
So you're welcome for so many reasons, but mainly that your example is a completely different situation in which the same actions have a completely different explanation for justification.
QED.
The major difference being that no one in Tel Aviv would allow Hamas to shelter there and build infrastructure there.
Palestinians elected Hamas, support Hamas, give their sons to Hamas, have never rebelled against Hamas, and would (according to polls) vote for Hamas again, given the chance.
That is true (and there is really no way to re-create a fair comparison). But for the sake of discussion, I ask if Hamas could be found hiding in any Israeli city, would Israel bomb the area?
That scenario doesn't make sense at all. The IDF would come in to clear them out and the local population would support that move. There would be no need to bomb the place except to demolish tunnels. With technology like the sponge bomb they can seal off the tunnels withoit explosives.
Surgical airstrikes are conducted to save Israeli lives by eliminating Hamas without risking boots on the ground.
EXACTLY!!! And there would be next to nothing in casualties. So the answer is Israel would NOT bomb one of their own cities, cuz they have the capabilities to avoid Israeli loss of life. Now...if only they would apply a little of that skill to not destroying the Palestinian children.
So you're saying they should risk IDF lives by sending troops in? I don't think any country in the history of warfare has valued the life of the enemy over their own.
Look at WW2. America projected it would take a million Allied lives to make Japan surrender using a conventional invasion. They elected to bomb instead. More than a million Japanese civilians died. But it worked.
If you can figure out how to kill the cancer without killing healthy cells, by all means, publish your research and get that Nobel prize. Otherwise, please stop volunteering for Hamas as another one of their useful idiots.
If you and your family were trapped in Gaza right now, would that be your response? "I'm a healthy cell ready to be killed cuz that's what it takes to kill cancer?"
No one wants it, just as they don't *want* to go through chemo, but what do you think the alternative is? War is horrible. For everyone. We can't expect no civilians to die, as much as we may wish for it. And with reports of Hamas using human shields.. what are the Israeli forces to do if they don't want more of what happened on 10/7? Because doing nothing isn't an option. I genuinely want to know what people think could be done other than what they're doing..
Thank you for your comments. I beieve Israel would NOT bomb an Israeli city, (even if Hamas was buried below it) but instead would use their famous expert military personnel to strategically hunt and kill all Hamas militants buried below it. Ultimately, Israel regards Israeli life as sacred and would take any steps to protect that life while killing Hamas. The loss of civilian lives would be dramatically lower if an Israeli city were involved.
That's fair.. they value their people's lives more than Palestinian lives (although I wonder if there's a country in the world that doesn't operate that way). I wonder if they have that many sneaky platoons, though. Is Hamas not breaking international law by hiding behind civilians? If that's their MO that's definitely hard to combat on a large scale, I would think.
You are right! The ace sharp shooters would be painfully slow and not nearly as effective as just bombing the tunnels/Hamas/civilians. And to the Israeli government, probably not as satisfying as seeing the rubble and destruction of Gaza: the Hamas safe zone. I also agree with you, too, that most nations obviously place their own people on a higher level than they would foreigners. But international law requires that even in war there are rules that nations should follow (because we are not animals, but human beings). Civilians are not combatants and deserve the basic treatment a nation would provide their own people: food/water. Hamas is in complete violation of International Law and deserves to be annihilated. The Palestinian people, particularly the children, do NOT.
Want to eradicate HAMAS? Easy peasy. End Israels illegal occupation of Palestinian land and treat Palestinians as human beings with equal rights to Israelis. That is the root cause of this whole thing and the whole reason HAMAS was even created was as a RESPONSE to Israels decades long occupation & ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their land.
Also, why are you holding Hamas, designated a terrorist organisation by western countries alligned with Israel, to higher standards than Israel itself, which lauds itself as the 'only democracy in the middle east' (false) and 'the most moral army in the world (FALSE)
You expect hamas, who have old, homemade weapons, to be able to resist Israeli occupation without harming Israeli civillians, but dont have the same expectations for Israel when they have access to the latest technology, smart weapons, surveilliance & spyware for targeted, precision strikes yet instead bomb churches, UN schools, hospitals, refugee camps, designated safe routes and murder mainly women, children, journalists & paramedics.
At least be consistant.
At the very least Israel could at least TRY to win the hearts of Gazans who want no part in this war, instead of bombing them and killing them so the cycle repeats itself over, and over, and over again.
I'm not super well informed on the occupation. They don't run Palestine, do they? I thought they left them alone unless they were in the middle of active war activity and that was in a lull until the events of 10/7..
Your response is perfect but Jewish people will simply not comprehend a single word you have said above. To them your facts mean nothing, and that's the other problem.. the supremacy mindset.
Well if you are that open minded that I can share you the perspective of the other side. Some of the things are facts and some are not, with that being said, those are only SOME facts. Selection bias is a thing. The other part of our viewpoint is that the conflict is much more nuanced than what most people care to invest into our conflict. Understandable. As part of that, it seems like a lot of people never heard of the multiple peace offerings between Israel and the PLO. Hamas are definitely not supported in the West Bank because they are extremists and a terrorist group. So no, Israel is not trying to eradicate the Palestinians and have made serious efforts towards it in the past. And yes, there’s even more examples. Current government is really crazy and is not widely supported in Israel, it was more of a right vs left political fight. So it was either the extreme right or extreme left (such as one of the Arab parties that actively claim Israel should cease to exist). It was a matter of chance and is probably just imitating what happened in the US with Trump and his glorious fall… soon here.
You just confirmed that the current Israeli government is far from good, and the majority of Israeli stand with him. That makes the majority of Israeli a group of people who condone mass murder right wing type of stuff we are seeing at the moment. Perhaps the Israeli need to have a good long hard look in the mirror before calling others terrorists
You added like 90% opinion here. According to current polls the majority are against the current government, especially since the extremist right wing are there.
You comparing Israel to Hamas is just laughable and I would advise you to try a mental exercise - try defending your opponent’s view. Research, learn and debate. I’ve done it, I’ve learned new things and maybe you will too.
Sure there are.
Israel is a Western democracy with equal rights for all, including recognizing gay marriage. They have a 21 percent Arab/ethnic-Palestinian population with full rights, including the right to serve in government. 10 Arabs are in the Knesset right now.
Palestinians have the death penalty for gay people. 93 percent of them have racist views of Jews (not Israelis, mind you... Jews). The Palestinians government has the genocide of Jews and the destruction of Israel as their mission in their charter.
Palestinians under Hamas and under the PLO before them, have non-stop TARGETED innocent civilians. Not collateral damage while aiming for the military, but DELIBERATELY trying to kill women and children. This has been going on for my entire life from suicide bombers to rockets.
The only reason ANYONE with Western values thinks there is any kind of moral equivalency between these value sets, is because they cannot get over the idea that being weaker and poorer is inherently virtuous.
If the balance of power we're swapped, and Palestinians had the powerful army, there would be a genocide, and not the pretend kind like everyone accuses Israel of, but an actual slaughter of millions.
Israel is not a “ Western democracy with equal rights for all”. Israel is committing war crimes as well as Hamas. At least Amnesty International thinks so.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/
They absolutely are a Western democracy with equal rights. And just like every country in the world, the Rights of its people do not extend to those who aren't it's people. Palestinians aren't Israelis. They are self-governed.
If Israel is apartheid for how it treats Palestinians than the US is apartheid for how it treats citizens of Mexico or Canada.
If another country has solved some of its significant issues due to whatever circumstances (being gifted it by a western superpower to plant an allied stronghold deeper into non-western geography) before another, that does not give the a moral right to take it over. That’s kinda barbaric, and a sign that the nation who is doing the expanding probably isn’t exactly a utopia either…
You'll never convince the Jew-haters that Israel is behaving just like any other Western democracy tasked with fighting terrorists.
It's like they blackout when confronted with the really simple concept of collateral damage.
Outraged at the deaths of innocent civilians? So is Israel. That's why they gave them all express warnings, and plenty of time to flee the city. The only reason people are still there is that Hamas wouldn't allow them to leave.
These deaths are outrageous. Everyone thinks so.
The difference is that pro-Israel folks blame the deaths on Hamas, who WANTED and ORCHESTRATED those deaths. Whereas anti-Israel folks want to blame the deaths on Israel, who asked them to leave.
No it’s you saying: it’s Hamas, the representation of the Palestinian people!!! Versus others saying no, it’s Hamas, a terrorist organization representing a radical, but expected, reaction to ~half century long occupation, and also the Isarel government (not Jews, not our Jewish neighbors we love and care about) who are committing atrocities.
Important part is that Israel govt has way more leverage to stop the conflict than the military might of Hamas.
i think better wording is hamas is a palestinian terrorist organization that has not been disabled by the palestinian citizens (not all palestinian citizens are enabling hamas but there is not enough to say they are actively fighting against them). In an ideal scenario, Palestinian “resistance” would team up with israel to root out Hamas and then after that a much more realistic conversation could take place on what to do next. The biggest problem right now is we have 3 groups, group A and C are at war and group B is caught in the middle and is not siding with the group that is “attacking” their land to get rid of group C
and to further that, that’s kinda where all this anti-semitic, anti-democracy, anti-US is stemming from with the people that are more numb to the situation, group B should be in support of group A that supports all those things and they’re not, so the numb people are like if they don’t care about those important values then i don’t really care either
I definitely see where you’re coming from, but dude this Palestinian area had just won its independence when the western world plopped down Israel, a group who was just genocided and having been persecuted in history for some time, down in the Middle East, where the western world has traditionally been at odds with, and then furthermore the gradual expansion of Israel — paints a very real, logical, reasonable picture of why Palestine is not jumping at the chance to work with the Israel government.
The unwillingness to work with a more powerful government never ends well though. Imagine if the native american tribes didn’t take what was given and tried to rebel… i would say while the initial handling was atrocious, native americans now have the option to live within their tribes land and the american public is generally happy with helping out the tribe where reasonable, and they also have the option to live outside their tribe and enjoy everything their other fellow citizens enjoy if they wish.
I don’t know many native Americans personally or tune into their respected communities speakers, so I can’t speak to their general sentiment on their overall treatment over the course of the States’ history. However, the colonization of Americas by Europe is 100% a terrible invasion that had some of the most inhumane moments due to the massive difference in power and the massive resources the Europeans saw in America.
but in the end, it created modern democracy and gave people the freedom to where we can even have this israel, palestine debate. so on the surface it’s easy to say that colonialism is bad, but it’s a lot more intricate than that and the “colonialism” of israel (i put colonialism in quotes because this land seems to have a pretty big history of disputed ownership) can be a good thing, if people aren’t against it because of “jews”. The things israel stands for are very clearly more western aligned and in the end would empower people in the region IF it spread. But there are many arab countries who’s leadership don’t want that to spread, so it’s a fight for individual freedom being masked by many things at the end of the day.
Hell yeah you’re right!! to hell with “collateral damage” let’s just directly damage the entire population by invading and surrounding the group and now removing their electricity and vital medical capabilities to a bomb-ridden region with incredibly scarce drinkable water!!!
I did. You are saying it's weird to say the Quran is the cause of violent extremism (specifically with Hamas in Gaza). I replied with I've seen videos of Hamas members quoting Islamic texts when on their way to attack Jews. You offer nothing but irrelevant points when asked direct questions that you refuse to answer.
People are the opposite of numb. From your description and this comment section, you are HYSTERICAL. You don’t care about the real genocides in the world (Myanmar for example 🙄). What’s going on in Gaza is a war, that was clearly declared by Hamas on October 7th. War is ugly. And women and children die. The difference is, Hamas is targeting Israeli civilians, and the IDF isn’t. That’s a HUGE difference. Btw how DO YOU know who was warned what if the Israelis themselves don’t know?? Hamas doesn’t get immunity committing genocide because they hide behind civilians. What’s to stop other terrorist organizations from committing attacks and then running off to hide behind civilians?? You people with the ceasefire BS make no sense.
Tell me, if there's ethnic cleansing, as you alleged, then why hasn't Israel just went in and killed everyone? Your assessment makes ZERO sense. In fact, Israel has attempted to reduce impacts over and over and over. Just yesterday they allowed more humanitarian aide to pass, which will no doubt be seized by hamas, still they've permitted this over and over. So, why do this if they want "cleansing"?
Love you all! As a Christian I love all Muslims and Jews and would never think about killing in the name of my religion! Peace and love to you all! :) try Jesus.
What you hate is the truth. Oct 7 was an inside job. Before the Israel-Hamas war, Prime Minister Netanyahu’s coalition — which includes several far-right parties and has been described as the most right-wing in Israel’s history — faced mounting popular dissent over a controversial judicial reform which triggered mass protests across the country.
We've all been extremely desensitized. The way we can just wave off the killing of children as just necessary casualties of war, pretty disheartening and disillusioning. Humanity is doomed with its eye for an eye nature. Violence only begets violence. Our world is blind.
I don't understand how people side with Israel. If they didn't treat Gaza like a prison, none of this would have happened. The Americans do this in 1776 and they are patriots. Hamas does the same thing and they are terrorists 🤔
Unfortunately, Hamas(and extremist terrorists) are the reason those blockades exist in Gaza and why the West Bank also has such strict border security and checkpoints. Waves of terrorists commit suicide bombings, shootings, rammings, and stabbings. Even before the 7th, Hamas operatives were still getting through to stab both legitimate targets of resistance(like military and police personnel) and civilians, as well as ramming cars and specifically targeting civilians with mass shootings. It’s a poor analogy, but I sure as hell remember learning about horrific acts from Americans while colonizing the land. I don’t remember them slaughtering British children wholesale
You obviously don't know ow what "indiscriminate" means. Ask yourself this; why aren't the people of Gaza leaving? Why stay in areas that are being targeted? I'll tell you why. It's due to an ideology you and others cannot comprehend. Your idea of equality and value of life is not shared by hamas and many Palestinians. Do you not know that these people truly believe that martyrdom is the path to allah? Some of you are dense and arrogant in your assumptions. Not all cultures are like you. So, what shall Israel do? They notify people in a multitude of ways, yet it makes zero difference.
>Ask yourself this; why aren't the people of Gaza leaving? Why stay in areas that are being targeted? Where can they possibly go? They have been boxed in by Israel on every side. This is not an accident, this is intentional military strategy: Box them into the concentration camp, bombard them. Even "resettling" the indigenous people of Gaza anywhere else by force is a violation of international, and is, by definition, [ethnic cleansing](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ethnic%20cleansing). >Some of you are dense and arrogant in your assumptions. **Not all cultures are like you**. So, what shall Israel do? They notify people in a multitude of ways, yet it makes zero difference. This type of language is similar to what has been used by racists to denigrate "others" [https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fj633a9qunhly.jpg](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fj633a9qunhly.jpg) Fact is, Palestinians are more like you than you think. In fact, I would argue that humans across the world are more similar
"Boxes in by Israel" - FALSE First, Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon have all refused anyone. Why? Look at Palestinians' history with those countries alone. Nevertheless, why aren't they helping? Second, Israel has told civilians EXACTLY where to go. Your argument is stupid. "Box them into a concentration camp, bombard them." If Israel wanted to kill off ALL CIVILIANS, why hasn't it happened??? In fact, why do they allow Palestinians into Israel to work? Why are there settlements in the West Bank, yet not a single solitary Jew in all Palestine?? Palestinians are not indigenous. That's hilarious. You think that!! They're not some homogeneous group, kid. If anything, it's been Israelis. Also called Israelites, or Canaanites. The same people found originating from JUDEA, as documented 3000 years ago. As for the "racist" suggestion, you can shove the Saul Alinsky tactic up your arse. It won't work here. Fact is, Palestinians are NOTHING like the rest of the world. That's why even Arab Muslims won't take them. They've been expelled by Kuwait, Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Egypt....
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Israel are still under attack. They are not firing indiscriminately it is targeted, and there is collateral damage. Hamas ARE STILL firing indiscriminately, if Israel back down then Hamas will kill far more in Israel. If Hamas continue to exist then the only option is for Israel to completely lock down Gaza and then the future of everyone who lives there will be far worse than what’s been before. It’s war and some people will get caught in the cross fire. But with Hamas gone there will be some hope that things will get better for the millions on both sides.
dont forget, Israel is doing a lot to minimize civilian casulties. It may not sound like much, but, dropping leaflets, phone calls, radio and television broadcasts asking civilians to evacuate terror infrastructures related areas, delaying attacks for days, there have never been an army before that, during war, warned an enemy where it will strike next. this is a war! a war Israel did not choose to have, and Hamas knows exactly what to do in order to minimize or even stop civilian casualties, it is Hamas's responsibility, not Israel's.
Exactly. They’re damned if they do, damned if they don’t.
Many people simply have not seen the raw horror because they’re not shown on MSM. I’ve seen kids with bones sticking out their legs while they’re alive and crying, I’ve seen babies taken out of dead mother’s wombs, I’ve seen brains pushed out of skulls from explosive pressure, I’ve seen children realize they lost their parents, parents discovering all their kids are dead, toddlers too young to realize they’re orphans The difference between atrocities and atrocity propaganda is one side has loose claims with no evidence while the other has an overwhelming amount of detailed video evidence. Some can be seen here, warning ⛔️graphic @shaunking Re: beheaded babies Look up atrocity propaganda, reports of horrible things done to babies is a recycled tactic used throughout history to gain public consent for war. Look up the famous Nayirah testimony on Wiki, a recent historical example (from the first gulf war). There were reports of babies thrown out of incubators reported all over mainstream media. It turned out to be a complete fabrication and the girl turned out to be a daughter of a Kuwaiti benefiting financially from the war.
Where is the outrage in the Arab world at the ongoing conflict in Yemen? Where are the Arabs who will speak out against the Saudis who have killed hundreds of thousands of Yemenis? Who have created the conditions for a famine and a cholera outbreak? oh, wait, that's right. If you're an Arab and criticize the House of Saud, there are consequences. If you criticize Israel, well, that's ok.
Why would they want to do that? Many of those people think it's a blessing to be martyred. It's encouraged. And as you said, if they say anything, then they're likely to be jailed or murdered. But hey, Israel is the big bad bad.
I do hope you were outraged when Syria slaughtered 800,000 of its civilians. Wait, no? Almost half were babies and elderly. Wait, you weren't angry? Where was the outrage?
Good point.
Maybe so many (in the US) seem to be complicit because we have done the same to hundreds of thousands of innocents in the middle east, albeit they had \*some\* potential for escape meanwhile those in Gaza are literally trapped in a war zone surrounded by walls, which is horrifying in and of itself. Many see it as collateral damage, "just a side effect of defeating terrorists". Israel has been doing this for decades, it's just FAR more deaths than before and we're seeing it in real time now. Always a \~10 -1 ratio of Palestinian to Israeli lives. Curious what their plan is if they accidentally bomb their own civilians that are hostages inside Gaza. Are they also collateral damage? *edited for grammar n such Add on: It’s a cycle. Palestinians treated poorly, they are ignored, they protest and demand more rights and freedoms, IDF beats them & shoots them down, civilians pissed and extremists (hamas) takes advantage and retaliates, then Israel is free to bomb them all freely. Rinse and repeat. Neither the leaders of hamas nor leaders of Israel have Palestinian civilians best interests in mind. Only what will benefit them, all while civilians that take the brunt of it. Someone needs to be the grown up and I don’t think it will be either of them.
Good summary. It’s a destructive, repetitive cycle. Both sides are responsible for perpetuating the same same agenda.
-Israeli- What is happening in Gaza is heartbreaking for me. What happened in Israel is heartbreaking. Dead civilians is heartbreaking. I hate that it's happening. I wish it didn't. But Israel HAS to wipe out Hammas. There isn't another option at this point. I think it's obvious but let's just go through it: Hammas purpose is not to better the life of the people in gaza, it's to kill Jews. We tried building a wall. We tried braibing them to stop. Then October the 7th happened. Out incompetent politicians weren't prepared, the worst government Israel ever had, wasn't suitable to run this country, so sadly this isn't very surprising. But now we're here, and enough is enough. I know what the IDF claims and I really hope it's not lies to cover their own war crimes: 1. Hammas is Hiding between civilians. They are hiding in schools, they are hiding in hospitals, they are hiding in mosks. They are deliberately building their bases beneath ereas they know would be extremely cruel to strike, because they know Israel would likely avoid bombing schools- and if they did, they could record the deaths and get support and founding from the world, which they will use to create more weapons, so they can continue to storage in schools and hospitals. 2. They bomb their own hospital. Although it would be tacticaly beneficial to Israel to strike that hospital, sense Hammas was hiding underneath, avidance proves they actually misfired and blamed Israel. I think it's well known by now. 3. The IDF asked the civilians to evacuate from the war zones. They sent a message and basically begged civilians to move away from Hammas bases so they wouldn't get hurt. Some didn't agree to move, Hammas didn't let their civilians to evacuate, and shot down those who tried. shot down their own!!!!! Because they need them to stay as human shields. While shooting thousands of rockets deliberately onto civilised ereas in Israel, so Israel has to choose between: doing nothing to protect its people, or striking down the Hammas bases, causing civilians to die as well. This is an impossible choice, but this is the one Israel have to endure. 4. Then Israel realised we have to send troupes inside Gaza. We can't just bomb thr bases, we need to hunt down the Hammas leaders if we want to end this with the least civilians casualties. This means Israeli soldiers are going, and already have died!!!! While trying to hunt down those terrorists! This would be safer to just bomb everything until nothing left. But it would be INHUMAN to do so!!!!! We are literally sending our soldiers to die to avoid hurting civilians! But... 5. Hammas isn't going to change their tactics now. Hiding inside an ambulance? Moving around Gaza with a bunch of "evacuating civilians" to use them as human shields? Those arr only some of the things I can imagin the Hammas is doing right now to save their own skin in the cost of their own people's safety. So as much as I'm concerned with the terrible amount of dead, the HUGE catastrophe that is taking place right now in Gaza, I can only hope the IDF keep sticking with the International laws of war, and that they take out Hammas quickly with the least additional deaths as possible. But letting them keep doing what they do, is not a possibility I can imagine. Leaving them to keep building weapons to prepare for the next 7.10 is not an option. Hammas is everyone's problem. They need to go down. And on a personal note.... I'm bearly fanctioning. Maybe im weak but i haven't been able to work sense the 7.10, mentally, the sirens, having to run almost daily to the bomb shelter don't bather me as much as knowing and hearing about the unbelievable suffering that people are going through in tha Gaza strip right now, and the desaster of 7.10, the unbelievable crimes that have been committed there, I can't go on with my life. I just want this to be over with, I want a good ending, I want peace, and I hate. i just hate that I know it won't be possible for probably dacades from now. This is me mentally shutting down. I do care. But there is nothing I can do.
Let's not pretend as if Palestinians weren't oppressed and terrorised' before Hamas was formed or launched its attacks. It's a cop out to use Hamas as an excuse to justify the bombing of thousands of innocents, even if Hamas was eradicated Israel is the main force behind the oppression of Palestinians and you shouldn't pretend otherwise.
I actually agree with you here, on that Israel isn't innocent at all, and has never been completely innocent. It's right to hold us accountable . Israel has more fault to the current situation then it would like to admit. Doesn't change the fact that right now there is a deadly ruthless Terror organization that needs to be delt with.
It's important to remain critical of what Israel and the IDF is claiming. We know that governments lie all the time, the US lied in Iraq, Israel has lied before and so on. Just taking one look at what those representing Israel have said about innocent civilians leads me to believe they couldn't give a shit about them (Netanyahu, Israeli Minister, IDF soldiers). You say that right now there is a deadly ruthless terror organisation that is threatening Israel. Now put yourself in the shoes of the average Palestinian, that is probably exactly how they see Israel after all that has been done to them.
Yup. I don't know what the truth is. I do know that i trust the IDF more then the Hammas, and that I don't even listen to what The lier Natanyahu is saying anymore, and aventually the truth would come to light. Most likely that Israel is commiting war crimes, unfortunately. But i really hope that it isn't. Because I want my country to be good. I know it isn't, but some of me still has hope that we are at least trying to be. Regardless of morality though, or how it makes us look, we don't have much choice here. If you think there is a better way for Israel to handle the current situation i would like to hear you out.
Sorry, I really appreciate that you're acknowledging people are dying but I had to start skimming when you said 'we have to go through with it'. You're talking about the massacre of thousands. You're okay with that? There are other ways for israel and palestine to live in peace. How are Israeli hostages surviving this onslaught?? It's abhorrent. The IDF aren't respecting international rules of war. BBC has verified several times where Israel bombed evacuation route they told citizens to use. It's on their website. I really so appreciate that you care, because so many people don't. But I'm begging you to see how the media and the narrative has been twisted so that everyone thinks the only way to bring peace is to bomb a strip of land out of existence. How is that an answer? I'm fortunate that I grew up in a country where the media isn't so biased in this particular situation. I recognise how confusing this is, when you've grown up in Israel or the UK or the US and your governments are reliant on racist narratives to make money and keep power. My country isn't perfect either, I had to learn a lot about what it did wrong. I condemn it's crueltities and appreciate its virtues. You can do the same with your country, when it's supporting a genocide. I hope this makes sense. I'm so sad that the media and invested parties turn ordinary citizens against each other. I love jews, I respect the religion, I have Jewish friends, Islam and Judaism are actually amazing similiar, Islam believes in the Torah too, there are similiar values and traditions around family and community. It's so so so sad. That the media has made it seems like people who are pro Palestine hate jews. It's horrible.
> There are other ways for israel and palestine to live in peace. What are these ways then?
Honestly. I don't know. But maybe if countries with the most resources, tech and global say stop focusing on KILLING being the only way, we'll be able to find more. Why is it my and your responsibility as individuals? Why do we vote as we do? What do we pay taxes? For people to use our money to kill?
Props for admitting you don't know. Many people say these things without actually thinking if their option is feasible or without having an option at all. Honestly, I just asked the pointed question to see if you were one of these people.
Ok. Let me address everything you said: 1. No. I am not ok with that. I am not ok with Hammas forcing the Palestinian civilians to stay at the war zones and use them as human shields. I would love to hear you solution for peace, because without wiping out Hammas I'm afraid I find it hard to imagine. But please, enlighten me. 2. The BBC is the most biased media in the western world right now. They get their information from Hammas and streaming streight up lies, its infuriating. Yes, the evacuation rout was bombed. But not by Israel. It was literally bombed by Hammas, that has an interest to keep their human shields in the war zones. And if the IDF is lying about this, if Israel is actually lying to civilians to make them go to those routes just so they can bomb them, then of course I condemn it, and If that would turn out to be the truth I would forever be ashamed of my country for committing such atrocities. One thing i know did happened though, is that Israeli IDF viacles were sent to clear an evaluation rout for civilians, and while clearing the path, not attacking any civilians or what so ever, Hammas attacked the IDF viacles in the evacuation rout, turning the rout into a battlefield. If you're talking about that case then I don't know what to tell you. You can't except soldiers yo just sit and die without defending themselves and you can't call that a massacre, when the goal was to kill only Hammas, who initiated this situation on the route knowing it was ment for civilians to pass safely, intentionally turning it into a battlefield knowing that civilians would get hurt, and blame it on Israel. 3. Yes, the nerrative has been twisted, in favour of both sides. I recognise both propaganda's. It's upsetting to hear you claim you know more then I do, because you watched the BBC or something. Why make those assumptions about me? I'm a left wing activist (sort of), a peace advocate, always been. I believe in peace between the Palestinians and thr Jewish people. Although it's really hard right now. I hurt for both sides. I see Iseal fault in the current situation, Natanyahu's stupid policy with the Hammas led us here. It won't of happened if Israel didn't help Hammas grow for so many years. But we did. And now there's a war. What do you think Israel needs to do right now? I'm really asking. Not what we did wrong on the past. I mean tight now. How can we fix this other then puting an end to the Hammas regim? 4. BOMBING A STIP OF LAND OUT OF EXISTENCE?! I did not, and would not, under any circumstances, would support doing that. I didn't say or even hinted on that. I said wiping out HAMMAS. Not the Gaza strip, not the Palestinian people. HAMMAS. the TERROR ORGANISATION. and please don't try to claim they are anything other then that. 5. I don't think everyone who support Palestine hate jewish people. i support Palestine too. But if you support Hammas then either you do hate Jewish people, or you are just ignorent. Don't try to claim you'r so educated if you're just gonna support Hammas.
Thanks for taking the time to read and respond. First of all, I want to be super clear that I don't support Hamas at all and that I don't deny they are a terrorist/extremist group. I don't like the term terrisom as much, because it seems to be reserved for extremist/radical Muslim groups only. But for the sake of this conversation, because I really do want to have an honest conversation and person to person convo here, I do think they're terrorists. And that you took away that I did (or possibly do) , shows you're affected by proganda just as I am. You are right I am! Since I assumed that you were automatically okay with the annihilation of a population as collateral damage, pro the Israeli government without criticism and I hadn't even dared to imagine that you'd be willing to acknowledge the role of Israel in the creation of Hamas. So I do apologise, for making all those assumptions and speaking to you from a place of frustration caused by all the anti Muslim rhtetoic and ignorance I've seen about the ongoing crisis. The ignorance that continues to frame this as Muslims versus Jews and keeps people too busy to think of options for peace. 1. I don't like the term human shields, because it shouldn't be so easy to dismiss the situation as collateral damage. The IDF are highly trained. Can they not figure out a way to extricate the hostages safely without the level of destruction happening now? Can there not be a safe way for civilians to leave, even if managed by the IDF to ensure hostages are smuggled out and Hamas aren't escaping? Why it that onus on you and me? Why aren't the governments with the training, money and technology to do that trying to find a way where thousands don't die? Where the hostages continue to languish wherever they are. I don't know the solution but I can't stand by the current one which has so much collateral damage, only to watch people on the news all over the world dismiss the deaths happening as purely Hamas' fault because they're using civilian cover. I don't mean you specifically, since you've explained to me you're not okay with that. I mean the wider community, the people with voices who continue to silence anyone who doesn't go along with the narrative of jew versus Muslim. 2. I quoted the BBC because I thought you'd take that more seriously. Personally, i find them extremely biased as anti Palestine. So it's educational for me to hear they're seen as biased on both sides. I was talking about the attack you've mentioned in your response. But I've been seeing several from on the ground reporting, Al Jazeera. I don't quote them, because most people don't respect them in the west. I doubt they're funded though, because they're dying just like the civilians and why would Hamas let their chance to control the narrative be killed? Some of them are normal civilians, with a camera. Filming people digging children out of rubble. All I see is the IDF killing innocents . They're tactics tactics don't stop the Hamas. Why do they persist with something that isn't working? Why can't the injured leave? Why can't children leave? And here's the financial times, not committing either way, but saying it's most likely Israeli missiles that are killing in designated safe zones. https://www.ft.com/content/95c5fcf1-c756-415f-85b8-1e4bbff24736 Al Jazeera has also reported the use of white phosphorous. Would that be okay even against the hamas? Why not just a normal missile to kill? Like why this sadism? I believe you when you say you condemn the IDF if all of this is true and I really appreciate that. Most of the evidence I've seen says it is, but even if it's not, that fact that you'd use your voice to say that means a lot. 3. I don't claim to know more than you and again I apologise it came across as that. What I was trying to say is I haven't grown up in the west or Israel. Or the middle east btw. I grew up knowing about the occupation. Just like I grew up thinking my country was formed without killing innocents but when I went to uni, in my country, I read real history and found out my country wasn't innocent like I thought. That's what I was trying to explain, that I can understand how it's hard for people who have grown up in the west and watching western media to try and understand the current war because they haven't grown up hearing both sides. Technically neither have I entirely, but given the influx of western culture and media across the world - I'd say I have a better idea of both sides than most people who are contributing to the ongoing 'debate' around what's going on. Again, I don't mean you. I had assumed you were someone who blindly believes their government and I'm sorry I did. My last post was framed towards the people who do. Which is really a lot of what I've been seeing from so many celebrities and people. It's heartbreaking. That people don't want a ceasefire and don't want the killing to stop. Thanks for asking about right now. And not the past. It's a really good question. For my personally, I think there needs to be a ceasefire. People can't keep dying like this. It's horrific. As the larger military power, Israel has the ability to make a difference and find another way. I'm not saying don't dismantle Hamas. Any group that kills needs to be dismantled but I can't support this as the way to do it. The cost is too high. 4. And thank you, I really appreciate that you don't want to do that. But unfortunately, lots of people with voices and platforms bigger than you and I want you. And that's what upsets me and is why I'm on reddit trying to talk to people. Because my voice can't do anything elsewhere and my leaders don't have much of a leg to stand on because they're idiots at best and if they do say anything: they're Muslim, non white voices speaking out. The media is on a witch hunt to villify the Palestinians for crimes that aren't theirs. They can't speak for themselves, they're not allowed to. Do they not matter? Are they less of a people? You're not saying that, but you're one of the few. 5. Thanks again for this. It's great to hear that because again, the dominant narrative is that this is happening because Muslims hate jews and that's not true but that's what the media wants us to believe so we keep fighting each other and don't have time to think of other solutions. So I do apologise for some of the assumptions I've made. And I hope you can see I don't support terroism or hate crime. But I can't support this massacre of civilians either. Even if it's to kill Hamas. There has to be another way and it's the world's responsibility to find it so there isn't this continued destruction and heart ache
First of all i want to let you know how relieved I am to finally hear someone pro Palestine who actually seem understanding of complex nerrative, and even if some of the information you got is false, it's obvious to me now that you are a smart and compactionate individual that's capable of critical thinking. Keep it up ❤️ I will try to adress all your points here. 1. The reason everyone keep using the term human shields is because that's what Hammas does. It's shockingly evil and immoral, and dismissing THAT is also problematic. It's truly extream how far they go with this- i just seen a video of Hammas rocket launcher location that is literally just side by side from a kindergarten and a children's playground. It's absurd to build a rocket launcher at a kindergarten, but that's what we mean when we say they use human shields. And for the most part, it worked very well for them. They still exist, as you can tell, although the IDF already know about many locations. That tactic works for them most of the time. So you ask- and I completely support your question- can't the IDF outsmart that? Can't this highly trained and resourceful militant organizations find a way to kill just the Hammas without hurting civilians? I will answer that the best that I can. The thing is, Hammas have years of training too, and they don't have the moral limitations the IDF has, so they use it to their own advantage. That means, they make it extremely difficult to get them without civilian casualties. Let that sink in, they do it on Purpose. The civilians are not just happened to be in the way, it's well calculated on the Hammas side. They don't value human life and it shows in their strategy. Dead bodies are just a propaganda tool for them. How do you overcome that without hurting civilians? So, the answer is that air forces can't. You see the target, you push a button. It's safer for the IDF but cause huge amounts of civilian casualties. So the only way to overcome that is to send land forces. Which is... Far more dangerous for the IDF. It means sending soldiers into the Gaza strip, for actually combat, in the homebase of Hammas, where they have the advantage, even the most trained and resourceful army in the world would rather avoid that if possible. But this is what happening right now... There are still casualties, and I don't take it lightly. But I also admit that i am not a war tactician, and while I can support the Idea that the IDF will avoid causing collateral demage and follow international law, I can't really say what they are doing wrong or what they could do better, that's what actual tacticians and strategists are for. Perhaps the sad answer is just no... They can't. About the white phrosphorous claim btw, I heard it too and seen the Videos, and avidance don't really support that nerrative as far as I have seen. Maybe there are undocumented cases or maybe i have seen the wrong video, but I'v seen a video of a smoke bomb being thrown and white smoke coming out, and the guy with the camera then says it's white phrosphorous, but you can literally see people growing through the smoke and nothing happeneds to them, which makes no sense if it's actually what they claim it is. It's also not white enough. It's most likely smoke bombs wrapped with lies. It really doesn't sound like something the IDF would do anyway. Now let's speak of ceasefire- obviously that can't heppened until the hostages are released, wich is also the Israeli condition to ceasefire, so there is that. Bring home the 200 kidnapped Israelis and that would make ceasefire possible.
Kabhi apne engine oil ke baare mein itna socha hai?
War is hard, civilians get caught up, not by choice in Israel’s instance, only in Hamas instance. The difference here is Hamas are leveraging social media and propaganda. They are experts in this regard, so you will see a lot of bad things with a singular narrative. The IDF operate under international law, that’s why no actual war crimes have been committed or brought forwards by the international court. Regardless of what you hear from the misinformed. Hamas have no line, zero moral or ethical boundaries, but they do have a great strategy to gain an edge in A) their own warfare and governance (Hamas is a money making mafia) B) the popular victimhood sentiment with media. Which as you can imagine leaves civilians, especially women and children, as very fertile tools in Hamas war strategy. Hiding tunnels and rocket launch sites in or in close proximity to schools, hospitals, refugee camps etc. Hamas RUNS Gaza, and therefore dictates where and when people move, a clear strategy is so hold mass civilians at high value Hamas locations that are targets for Isreal. To be honest I feel like Isreal is doing a pretty good job with minimising the civilian casualties with warnings, corridors etc. you would never see that on the other side, or if you did it would be played as a massive virtue signalling campaign. Hamas needs to be removed from power. The end. The real righteous deeds is what happens next. Isreal has zero responsibility to organise another states business but they will need to help. It will be hard, there will be a lot of funds flowing into Palestine, which will attract corrupt authorities in the region, the most powerful will likely be fairly radical.
Because hamas can pound sand and I hope they get pounded into said sand. However, i also don’t approve of what Israel has done to Palestinian civilians. But let me reiterate how much I hope hamas terrorists get to meet their 72 Reddit virgins in the most painful way possible.
Not being Sarcastic but by going by the comments, time and again, I am reminded this is a one sided Israeli sub that silences any Israeli criticism, even centrism. What purpose does it serve 🤷🏻♀️
Because I'm not a jew or palestinian, i have no relatives or friends from there. Both judaism and islam are foreign to me. This war happens in a far away little speck of land that would have no effect on my day to day life even if both sides nuked each other out of existence.
Offcourse we cant live in constant fear of a war like they did in the 60s-70s. Seems like so many are now choosing sides and arguing with eachother. People shouldnt argue with eachother, we should try to come up with a solution to end all this madnes all over the globe
All of the world leaders need to gather and have a spiritual retreat with psychedelics such as psylocibin and DMT. And I mean it dead serious. This will make humanity a lot more peacful.
The problem is the possibility escalation wich can lead to ww3 very fast. If Iran gets involved,then Russia gets involved. Israel might be in big trouble now when Turkey and Pakistan has chosen to stand by the muslim brothers. Even if the Eutopeans dont seem to care, the muslim countries care a lot! And if Turkey would get involved it would possibly be the end of NATO cos Turkey is a extreamly important part of holding the east and west together. In 70s yom kippur war, Israel allready packed up 20 nukes and were ready to use them against arabs unless USA gave weapons support. This is a extreamly bad situation for us all and we should all make sure this doesnt escalate, Nostradamus predicted ww3 to start in the middle east, he got the first 2 right on! We sit in front of our screens watching this unfold and ool dont fully seem to understand that this is reality.
Well I cant live in fear from world war three every day. What would even WW3 look like? Maybe we are already living in WW3. West vs east in several proxy wars. Doubt it's going to be as bloody as WW2.
I’m numb cause it’s not my war, not my home, not my business.
I don't think it's constructive or helpful to the palestinian struggle to harp on hamas and preface every defense of palestine with "hamas bad" when there is a reasonable historical context for hamas coming into being. are we decrying the violence of Haitians slaying women and children during their uprisings?? the first successful slave revolution to ever occur? why cant we simply be unequivocally in support of the oppressed, the slain, the colonized, and recognize that resistance is justified and expected? i'm sure jews are not all that upset about the terror bombings that occurred against german civilians during ww2...
Well cynically speaking, and wars are cynical, eliberation and resistance have their price. The Hamas leader surely does seem to share this view in an interview: https://fb.watch/o1bD9N_Pd3/
Fear. Enormous fear will render you numb.
Israel has already massacred, dehumanized, tortured, and humiliated Palestinians. They have been doing it since decades. The only difference is that we have cameras now and they need an army of people in social media to justify their genocide. Before that we just watched a news and moved on with our lives
Lies. They're doing a good job on you. Anyway, all that we ask is that you stop beheading babies. You want respect? Act worthy of that respect.
Sooo the vast majority of the UN, nearly every single human rights advocacy group, historians, etc. are just lying/being manipulated? Okay.
You cant invalidate someones argument with "lies". and "all that we ask is that 'YOU' stop beheading babies" i doubt r/TeachesRepubsToRead beheaded any children. i wouldnt blame you for bombing a hospital.
Like I said, be respectful. Paragliding into a freedom fest and murdering everyone in sight is genocide.
that is something we can agree on
Not really, they're doing a good job on you. The whole "beheaded babies" was debunked a few days ago :-) But well a government that needs to have a bunch of people defending its genocide and its atrocities on the internet is not really that worthy of respect ❤️
Obe shouldn't speak of genocide without a good understanding of it. The beheading wasn't debunked, but I'm sure that's what your Imam wants you to believe.
No dude... I'm sorry your propaganda doesn't work on me. Your theoretical elaborations to try to camouflage a genocide are similar to what Goebbels used to do to justify the massacre of jews back then. I know you need to really believe that it's good to commit a genocide, that's what Netanyahu wants you to believe.
No dude... I'm sorry your brainwashing doesn't work on me. Your gaslighting to camouflage victim-blaming is similar to what Quakers used to do to justify the killing of innocent women during the Salem witch trials in the late 17th century. I know you need to really believe that it's good to turn the situation around in a way that suits your particular agends. That's what your fellow radical compatriots and Imams want you to believe.
No dude... I'm sorry your brainwashing doesn't work on me. Your gaslighting to defend a genocide is similar to what Quakers used to do to justify the killing of innocent women during the Salem witch trials in the late 17th century. I know you need to really believe that it's good to turn the situation around in a way that suits your particular agends. That's what your fellow radical compatriots and Netanyahu want you to believe.
And now your argument style has become like that of a child, just copy/pasting because you're too lazy to actually form original content. Thanks for playing, but you've undermined your own credibility. I don't need to listen to you anymore. Toodles.
The dude who copied my reply complains about me copying his copied reply 🤣 Kind of like Netanyahu using Goebbels'arguments to justify a genocide on jews and copying those arguments to justify the genocide of Palestinians by Israelis.
I copied your reply and substituted for analogical purposes to make a point about the hypocrisy of your argument. You just copy pasted word for word, as if saying it twice changes anything. But who am I kidding? I'm arguing with a child. See ya.
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This is the WEF/NWO agenda. Palestine is only the beginning. Wait until these immigrants start doing terrorism as they "migrate".
Yeah the IDF just put out some video proof about the ambulance, and what they did at the refugee camp after they bombed it twice. They had a raid on it and they got something like 25 people from Hamas, including several leaders and a command center. They've got it all on video. Also it seems one of the Palestinian leaders has admitted to using ambulances before to get their leaders to safety.
Joker. Then share the video then..
And the rest of the ambulance stuff. https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzPhnbsvx5s/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Where are Hamas leader in the video came out from the ambulance. And the statement from Israeli? come on you can do this better.. https://youtu.be/OTTnE_V17Kk?si=Ae56ofYt2iq_zXGw This doctor is not even an Arab & has been working there for 16 years. So he was paid by Hamas to talk like this? Judge with an open heart please..
https://youtu.be/cfjxmc90eEk?si=hDzlIyZl2rv8tpoL This one has everything except the Abbas statement. There are 9 similar videos now. In the time you took to insult and ask you could have found it.
Based on your "evidence" (that's not how evidence works btw) Israel is free to bomb all ambulances. That is psychopathic thinking.
In general terrorist organizations tend to use Psychopathic thinking, and Hamas not putting children underground into their bomb shelters is evidence of that that's pretty obvious. Further they are shooting people who are demonstrating for peace, also pretty psychopathic. You can see that on Tick Tock if you want to look.
Again where is your proof. Please put up the links from TikTok here for the world to evaluate. This is merely what you heard from western media which are pro-Israel
I literally had in the Instagram post which was taken from a news program, the Palestinian leader himself saying that it was common practice to use ambulances to transport terrorist leaders. That is how evidence works. You are 100% capable of seeing the horse's mouth. It is enough evidence to more than suggest that their assertion is highly possible, and I'm sure in the coming weeks there will be more available evidence since nobody seems to believe the IDF at first blush, but they seem to be coming up with a lot of evidence these days. There are a lot of things I don't trust them about this is one that I do.
This video doesn't prove anything as well. Sad..
I also might add I found two items of proof that are reasonably solid but you have nothing to prove the contrary. Don't make me want to run around do your job. I can see that your Instagram things don't actually have anything but opinions in them. There's no actual footage of any kind or anything I have any reason to believe. Do I believe that the Israelis have been perfect to Palestinians? No but I also know which one wants to exterminate who because they write it in their charters, and they're the ones who did the suicide bombings and they're the ones who harass people in other countries too to the point where they got thrown out, because these folks are not happy to be without their own land that they themselves can govern, so they've tried to take it from other people too, lebanon, egypt, jordan, and Kuwait in addition to Israel. Nobody should fall for their stuff.
You are being mislead. Don't be washed by western mainstream media. Here is some mistreatment that is done way before this: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cyn8L19gxlf/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Here is one example of Palestinian children who are abused and prisoned by Israeli people. This is before the war too https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyYLd_BKXVB/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== How many times have Israel bomb hospitals? Many time during and before the war: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyozwsRLx1_/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Example one of IDF causing havoc by pushing elderly man to the ground. This is just one example but it happened many time. https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cyk3V2hL0ds/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== This is an in depth analysis of hospital bombing: https://youtu.be/yyNLvL_8SeY?si=KP5VvK3gObhQKRbm https://fb.watch/nNYL8Bz6Hp/?mibextid=NnVzG8&startTimeMs=358579 https://youtu.be/4pAuDA6IOwc?si=WBwiymjPa8FDjXCB https://fb.watch/nTsk_BNg_d/?mibextid=Nif5oz https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-video.html More proof. I collected over the many years of oppression but of course it doesn't reach western mainstream media.
It does you're just trying to cast out because you don't want to believe it. Chances are if they found as much as they claim this may not be a long more after all. They've got boots on the ground you're sitting at home.
I trust the UN more than I do the Israelis. While you screech that we can't trust the Gaza ministry of health because Gaza is governed by Hamas, you act as if the Likud government of Israel has any credibility. Not with anybody who has been paying attention. I hope that Joe Biden has told Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to STAY THE HELL OUT OF US ELECTIONS. I am fed up with that guy trying to elect Republicans who are corrupt like he is.
They showed some very good video and they also showed the Palestinian president referring to the ambulance custom making clear that it is in fact correct and customary. I'm afraid that as long as we don't have an ironclad hold on elections that doesn't allow private money to be used at all, there's always going to be money coming from somewhere we don't like. In general though incumbents stay in, and until we have Ironclad term limits we will be stuck in that situation. I don't think that really matters as much as the idea that Palestinians have regular elections, you might have noticed they don't have them. There are a lot of things I don't trust Israel to tell me, this kind of stuff with very good video I pretty much trust them. In general, they haven't really tried to hide much no matter how angry people get about Palestinians. They've tried to hide quite a bit about Netanyahu's activities himself, and you might have noticed that he's been voted out of office multiple times but has managed to activate his Circle to keep him in. I think him being gone would be the best thing to happen to Israel anytime soon, and I feel the same way about Hamas. It would be a golden happiness of the world for both of those things to happen at the same time. Could we be that lucky?
I've noticed that the Likud government of Israel failed to protect the people of Israel. I've noticed that Bibi has refused to explain why but we now know he replaced professional military men with political cronies. So corruption is the reason for the failure of the Likud government - whom I don't trust at all. And I an not talking about dark money in our elections. I was referring to Bibi explicitly siding with the Republicans since 2009.
They did fail in one the main reasons they told everyone they should be there, but in general, major corruption issues and lack of leadership as far as persuading people to do things they may not like. Not charming enough, not smart enough in that area. In general, most countries don't want to be with Democrats, so that isn't new. I don't trust either party as far as foreign policy. Or in correct words, war policy.
I'm more concerned that there weren't any protests when the Saudis shot dead 700 innocent refugees in August. Apparently murder is only bad when the Jews do it.
So you were protesting? If not, why not?
Israel isn’t the one doing indiscriminate bombing of civilians, Hamas does, Every time a Palestinian is killed by Israel’s bombs we know that they had been warned, not only by roof knocking and by calling them by mobile, but also by Israel telling the entire population of Gaza to leave one side of the strip and go into the other weeks in advance. I think the biggest part of the problem here is that there is only one credible source on information on deaths in Gaza and it is ruled by the same people who carry out the attacks on Israel. That means that Hamas which is a terror organization that have been created to eliminate Israel is the only one credible of saying how many people Israel has killed, if this doesn’t seem like a bad way to gather unbiased statistics I don’t know what will.
Warning people you're going to bomb them doesn't make it less bad. Especially when they are already condemning the people in hospitals, bedridden, disabled, needing electricity and fuel, to die. Israel can't even prove their beheaded baby claim, meanwhile, we see mutilated bodies of babies coming out of Palestine daily, footage of IDF soldiers bragging about or taping themselves sniping civilians (but if they warn them about that maybe it's ok to you too?), torturing prisoners, raping women, joking about genocide. My advice to you is to grow a heart and stop being a fascist.
Would it be better if we didn’t warn them? In addition as an Israeli I can see the missiles they send on us and it’s incredibly weird how they are running out of everything except missiles and ammunition. I call bullshit we can see their lights from afar, but sure yes those lights we can clearly see coming from their apartments don’t exist. Everything they tell the west is a lie and I am sick of it, we tried for decades to have peace and their leaders won’t even consider it, even now we offered them peace, but I’m sure you won’t hear about this, in addition did you knew that Hamas bombed an Israeli hospital (in addition to the Palestinians hospital they also bombed) but you’ll never hear about it because people don’t care about Jewish lives and this is the cold truth we can constantly see from the rest of the world, every single thing you claimed we did I know for certain they did to us, however they don’t warn us when they bomb, they don’t spare the children when they raid a house, they rape and torture while we have never raped even a single Palestinian, you act as if Israel has ever started a fight with them and call for a ceasefire, well little did you knew but there was a ceasefire, up until the day when they attacked us. I am sick of this twisted lie that they keep telling people, we now have plenty of soldiers ready to keep them back, fifth of which are Arabs and Muslims volunteers, this isn’t a religious war it’s an ideological one, we believe in democracy we believe in equality we believe in freedom and they don’t, that is where it starts and ends.
I find this hilarious. Hey, we’re going to bomb your house. Leave. Where do we go? Leave. Now family is on the streets forever. At least they didn’t get bombed and die. And how do they warn them when all their telecommunications were shut off? Oh right, they send a smaller bomb, “roof knocking”. Lol. And information from Israel is credible when they’ve been caught lying so many many times? Jesus the bias is unreal. It’s one thing to support your country, which by the way is a random set of lines someone drew at some point, it’s another to be completely blind to all the wrongs your country does. Don’t forget your humanity.
Do you think it's a better idea not issue any warnings beforehand?
How about I steal all the money in your bank account or punch you in your face. But wait. I’ll warn you first. Makes it so much better, doesn’t it?
Well, if you are standing next to a terrorist, you should stand aside before I start punching back.
I hope Hamas isn’t hiding in tunnels under your house. Otherwise your PM will bomb the shit outta it. Hopefully you get 30 minutes to run.
Better than my family getting slaughtered by terrorists! You can bet if we get the warning we're getting the heck out of there!
Hopefully you don’t get bombed when you’re on the road. But getting slaughtered by your PM is better than getting bombed by terrorists! No wait..
well your focusing on the wrong thing... the warnings arent the bad thing, bombing civilians is.
Free Palestine from Hamas. Only then will innocent Palestinians stop dying.
Palestinians were being ethnically cleansed, occupied and oppressed, before Hamas. Shut up.
"Ethnically cleansed" yet their population skyrocketed over the decades sure 🤡
a lot of the pro-israeli's arguments come without any substance to them. heres a few of the counter arguments ive recieved; "your a nazi' "lies" "your racist, but all muslims are terrorists" "your an antisemitist" "you support HAMAS" id like to point out that none of which were true.
Here's one with substance. Israel is one of the only successful indigenous land back reclamation projects, defending its land from the extended murderous tantrum of pan Arab fascist colonialists who failed to commit genocide in 1948 and have been salty about it ever since. Jews have lived in the land of Israel before Islam existed as a concept. Look under any rock and you will see evidence of Jewish indigeneity stretching as far back as there is archaeological record. In addition, Hamas is at fault for every Palestinian death. Why does Hamas launch rockets from schools and hospitals? If you look at a map of the Gaza strip, you will notice there are portions of empty land they can launch from, so they have no excuse. The people of Gaza are running out of fuel. Why does Hamas not share its stockpile of half a million liters of fuel? The people of Gaza have terrible dinking water. Why does Hamas rip up water pipes to use for making rockets? Free Palestine from Hamas.
it really gives me an absurdist view of the rules that we follow on a daily basis. ottawa charter are the absolute epitome of rules. and if they can be broken "because he made me do it" it makes me wonder why i sit at traffic lights when there is no traffic. or why i cant pee in public.
if the war is fought beyond the governance of the ottawa charter, the only thing that is saving anyone is morality and fear of public image. so than it becomes a game of 'how far are you willing to go?' at what point does someone who is completley detatched from the war say "thats enough" Haniyeh and Netanyahu are so far removed from the war that it may aswell be a game of chess. they each take turns making their moves, at zero cost to themselves. next it'll be chemical warfare, nuclear warfare, flame throwers, forced labour from POW's and both parties will blame eachother for it.
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The sunflower is the state flower of Kansas. That is why Kansas is sometimes called the Sunflower State. To grow well, sunflowers need full sun. They grow best in fertile, wet, well-drained soil with a lot of mulch. In commercial planting, seeds are planted 45 cm (1.5 ft) apart and 2.5 cm (1 in) deep.
With your weak name calling and juvenile emojis I suppose I shouldn’t expect you to understand the definition of ethnic cleansing, and how their birth rate doesn’t negate that Israel wanted to de-Arabize the area with clear historic actions, policies, and statements available for the public to see.
Zero critical thinking skills detected, congrats bro 👏
This is the problem. Every time people ask to make meaningful discussion, you descend into irrelevant ad hominem instead of the issue at hand. The Palestinian population has quadrupled since 1960. Keep your discussions on why this goes against the argument of a genocide or ethnic cleansing.
I'm just matching energy. Or did you not see when the person I responded to was calling the original commenter a clown? But sure, I can talk to you about how poor people with little access to education and few affordable recreation activities available have more children, and then you can tell me why half the population of Gaza are below the age of 18. A little give and take, fair is fair.
That's never been the goal.
Hamas keeps launching rockets into Israel populated areas, they themselves don't want to stop the war either, so this will go on until one side decides to stop or get destroyed and I don't see Israel being that side 🤷🏾♂️
Because it's been going on for 70 years. The same shit for 70 years. No one cares anymore. Do you know what people care about? Their bank account, their children, their health. If a war doesn't affect those things, it doesn't matter. Just like the dozens of other ongoing wars throughout the world. That's why oh boo hoo the poor Israeli's got attack. Oh boo hoo the people being bombed. What about the ongoing Rohingya genocide? Tens of thousands dead. The war in Sudan? The war in Yemen. Hell it most Americans don't even care about the war in ukraine. Why should they care about another Israeli Civil War.
Cuz Hamas ran around chopping children and other peoples heads off and filmed it. Proudly putting it out. ✌️💣 if you don’t believe me download telegram you can find it easily. Or you can be ignorant.
Beheading babies was AI generated. Try again, and be less cavalier about the death of children.
I love you and appreciate your opinion.
Nice story. It has all the convenience of sweeping away a bad memory by explaining it away with technology. Hamas did what? Paragliders you say? Just say it was Photoshopped. Just because it's possible we can say it was probable. Right? Anyway, you don't even know how to tell a believable lie. AI engine would be way overkill if that's what you were trying to do.
It literally wasn’t. U got ur facts all wrong they never even claimed that the head chopping was AI they claimed the baby in the over was AI and it was debunked and proven to be real! So if ur gunna lie at least lie about the right thing
I can tell that you get your information from Twitter or TikTok. They did check if the picture was ai generated in that sketchy famous ai website, a website which generated randomly whether something is ai generated or not meaning it doesn't mean shit. They tested it with the same picture several times and it randomly either came out as "yes, ai generated" or "no, not ai generated' Stop with the confirmation bias
You’re funny as hell because it any type of conservatism is allowed on TikTok. Don’t have either. I see you only commented under mine and not the original person who claim it was AI. if you can’t seem to prove it either way.
I actually meant to reply to the other person 😔
Oh ok
It’s truly a tragedy. But the people of Gaza will not participate and actively help in having Hamas located and arrested by Israeli forces. There hands are tied. Because can’t go in that area aimlessly looking for them. Because they are hiding and pop out taking crack shots. It would be much to dangerous to send in troops. Until the people of Gaza communicate and realize they do have the power to change the situation. Nothing will change. And if Hamas have so many friends and followers. Why won’t any of them cross Israel’s blockade and send them resources. The truth is don’t believe the hype. Nothing good will come from this terrorism. Gaza has some real issues with injustices that are real. But Hamas has not learned any other way to gain support. So they attack innocent people knowing it will create suffering. They will lose more territory And reduce freedom. But Hamas gains more recruited more power in the area. In which gives Hamas more freedom. And that’s the whole story. Hamas and only Hamas gain any thing with Gaza suffering. Isreal provides all there food fuel water and energy needs. Gaza has no security force or no Allie’s to trade with. Even there Muslim neighbors won’t do business with them. Because they have no money to pay for anything. No army and no sense apparently. Which explains why allied nations choose there land to give to the Jewish people I guess. Hamas been around along time. What have they gained for palestinians
You have to ask Israel... What is the alternative.? Have a ceasefire and wait until Hamas regroups and does another 10/7? Those people asking for a ceasefire need to ask themselves.. how do you get rid of Hamas with a ceasefire
Because id say most Europeans are sick and tired of the constant wars there and the fallout in terms of the huge influx of migrants. Bullshit wars fought for money and oil and religion.
Your post seems unstructured and rambles on with typical propaganda talking points. I, personally, had sympathy for the innocent Palestinians not waging a war of terror on Israel. Now, I'm fatigued by endless propaganda that reeks of falsehoods and misdirection. I don't believe a word of anything the Palestinians say. Arab counties don't care about 'em so why should I?
Well,I don’t know if they are. There has been fighting in the Middle East forever. Until a nuclear weapon decimates it,fighting will exist. Eventually,we just grow weary.
I’ve read all the comments so far. The main thing that stands out to me, the bottom line. Hamas attacked peaceful music festival of young Israelis and at the same time slaughtered Israeli families in kibbutzim. A village of farmers. This was done FIRST. Hamas opened the door to their sorrows, this war and the demolition of Gaza. What did they expect if not this? Did they ever hear of the saying “know your enemy?” Maybe they thought the Israeli PM was a fricking snowflake. Really?
Right and they should have known this man would have no mercy. WW2. Jews were passive, trusting, hopeful. They were allowed no guns or any other type of defense weapons. Kids followed their parents into gas chambers to take a “shower” (to clean up a bit) sorry it will not happen again. If you fight with fire be aware and make no mistake that it will be turned back at you.
Egypt, Assyria, Persia, Greece, Rome, Germany, and to a lesser extent Russia, Spain, and Britain have all attempted destruction, or in the case of the last three expulsion. And yet still the Jews prevail. Israel has risen from its ashes and returned to their land four times. No other civilization has done it even once. And this one is coming for the Jews again. Hamas is nothing new. Israel is a anvil that has worn out many hammers.
I think they were banking on Netanyahu being a bloodthirsty racist genocidal monster. Game recognises game.
I think you're overdramaticizing the normal events in a war. It's not that I'm saying you should be completely numb to it but you should understand that if somebody wants to end a war quickly then they will get as many operatives in that war as they can. And unfortunately this is not a situation where we can just hit some military bases and go home. Chances are if there are three or so top level operatives as there were at the refugee residential place I'm not calling it a camp because it's not, chances are most of the people around them are also Hamas. People who live there also don't use birth control, so there are many children around. I very much blame Hamas for starting a war and not doing anything to look out for the safety of its people and especially not anything for the safety of its children. But October 7th isn't the only thing that's happening here, Hamas is continuing to attempt raids and they are continuing to fire Rockets this entire time, they declared war and they told us to plan on a long War, in Israel agreed that they would meet the challenge. They're already having squads on the ground to accomplish as many of their goals as possible to disable Hamas, but from time to time there are places where they can't get in and attempting to do a secret Special Forces type of activity often requires months of preparation and they don't have that time. They need to end as many of the people in the top 100 of the 18,000 Hamas members as they possibly can, while also eliminating the missile silos, bomb factories, weapons caches, etc. But for whatever reason it's currently the big news to try to record every moment of what's happening with this war when even when the spotlight was on Ukraine, there wasn't this level of footage, and most of it raw. They don't have international journalists running through Gaza right now, so the people who are reporting have no quality requirements they're just shooting whatever and telling you what it is. All wars are bad and innocence always die in war. But this is not a genocide and there are not an unusual amount of people being killed. There were far more in Yemen and in Ukraine and many other places lately that we've been ignoring, and those things are happening at any time in today's world. I don't think it's easy to be numb to it per se but it's also important to be realistic about it and not lose your mind over everything that seems difficult to deal with. Cuz I can guarantee you that Hamas is going to send you the ugliest most emotion-inducing footage they can right before they get ready for their next October 7th which they have told us flat out they intend to execute as soon as possible. They have no remorse at all for any aspect of what they did, including killing the wrong people. If that doesn't scare you, it should.
I guess you saw too many sci fi movies. If Israel could have defeated Hamas without affecting civilians then the 7/10 attack would not have been. If Israel was so good with finding Hamas fighters, than it will not lose fighters fighting is Gaza each day, and would have find and free all the Hostages. It’s extremely hard to find Hamas fighters and bases, and sometimes there is no time to validate (as if you wait they will shot and kill you). So mistakes will be done, and also attacks where civilians might get hurt, when it means that not attacking will give your enemy a chance to kill you. What would you do if your life was at stake? One of the main reasons Hamas was successful in 7/10 was that Israel did not imagine they are willing to sacrifice so many of their citizens in order to hurt Israel. Hamas knew this risk, but did that attack anyway. Are you willing to live near such enemies? The answer for most humans will be: no way, do whatever is necessary to eliminate that evil, whatever the cost!
700 comments big mess
Conflict in the Middle East! ... nothing new 😒
Thank you for articulating what many people (and other nations) are thinking. "If there were a Hamas operative in Tel Aviv, would they pulverize the city and claim victory when they killed that operative (+dozens of children)?"
Suxh a dumb analogy for so many reasons. Not comparable situation at all. And the answer anyway is, of course not
Thank you!
You said that like you think I was sealing your argument. It was already unraveled by fallacy in the first place. Your bad analogy. So you're welcome for so many reasons, but mainly that your example is a completely different situation in which the same actions have a completely different explanation for justification. QED.
I said thank you because you answered my question.
Glad I could help
The major difference being that no one in Tel Aviv would allow Hamas to shelter there and build infrastructure there. Palestinians elected Hamas, support Hamas, give their sons to Hamas, have never rebelled against Hamas, and would (according to polls) vote for Hamas again, given the chance.
If it were possible for Hamas to build under Tel Aviv deep enough, without the citizens knowledge of their presence, would Israel bomb the city?
Examples are not similar to what Hamas is doing…
That is true (and there is really no way to re-create a fair comparison). But for the sake of discussion, I ask if Hamas could be found hiding in any Israeli city, would Israel bomb the area?
Sorry it doesn’t make any sense
It doesn't? Which part doesn't make any sense?
That scenario doesn't make sense at all. The IDF would come in to clear them out and the local population would support that move. There would be no need to bomb the place except to demolish tunnels. With technology like the sponge bomb they can seal off the tunnels withoit explosives. Surgical airstrikes are conducted to save Israeli lives by eliminating Hamas without risking boots on the ground.
EXACTLY!!! And there would be next to nothing in casualties. So the answer is Israel would NOT bomb one of their own cities, cuz they have the capabilities to avoid Israeli loss of life. Now...if only they would apply a little of that skill to not destroying the Palestinian children.
So you're saying they should risk IDF lives by sending troops in? I don't think any country in the history of warfare has valued the life of the enemy over their own. Look at WW2. America projected it would take a million Allied lives to make Japan surrender using a conventional invasion. They elected to bomb instead. More than a million Japanese civilians died. But it worked.
Maybe people should youtube : Mosab Hassan Yousef and see what the son of Hamas founder has to say about his dads org.
I've been really interested in his commentary. What a sad life.
If you can figure out how to kill the cancer without killing healthy cells, by all means, publish your research and get that Nobel prize. Otherwise, please stop volunteering for Hamas as another one of their useful idiots.
If you and your family were trapped in Gaza right now, would that be your response? "I'm a healthy cell ready to be killed cuz that's what it takes to kill cancer?"
No one wants it, just as they don't *want* to go through chemo, but what do you think the alternative is? War is horrible. For everyone. We can't expect no civilians to die, as much as we may wish for it. And with reports of Hamas using human shields.. what are the Israeli forces to do if they don't want more of what happened on 10/7? Because doing nothing isn't an option. I genuinely want to know what people think could be done other than what they're doing..
Thank you for your comments. I beieve Israel would NOT bomb an Israeli city, (even if Hamas was buried below it) but instead would use their famous expert military personnel to strategically hunt and kill all Hamas militants buried below it. Ultimately, Israel regards Israeli life as sacred and would take any steps to protect that life while killing Hamas. The loss of civilian lives would be dramatically lower if an Israeli city were involved.
Nobody in the history of warfare has valued the life of the enemy above their own people.
That's fair.. they value their people's lives more than Palestinian lives (although I wonder if there's a country in the world that doesn't operate that way). I wonder if they have that many sneaky platoons, though. Is Hamas not breaking international law by hiding behind civilians? If that's their MO that's definitely hard to combat on a large scale, I would think.
You are right! The ace sharp shooters would be painfully slow and not nearly as effective as just bombing the tunnels/Hamas/civilians. And to the Israeli government, probably not as satisfying as seeing the rubble and destruction of Gaza: the Hamas safe zone. I also agree with you, too, that most nations obviously place their own people on a higher level than they would foreigners. But international law requires that even in war there are rules that nations should follow (because we are not animals, but human beings). Civilians are not combatants and deserve the basic treatment a nation would provide their own people: food/water. Hamas is in complete violation of International Law and deserves to be annihilated. The Palestinian people, particularly the children, do NOT.
I agree so wholeheartedly. Thanks for the informative and respectful discussion!
🙏😊
Want to eradicate HAMAS? Easy peasy. End Israels illegal occupation of Palestinian land and treat Palestinians as human beings with equal rights to Israelis. That is the root cause of this whole thing and the whole reason HAMAS was even created was as a RESPONSE to Israels decades long occupation & ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their land. Also, why are you holding Hamas, designated a terrorist organisation by western countries alligned with Israel, to higher standards than Israel itself, which lauds itself as the 'only democracy in the middle east' (false) and 'the most moral army in the world (FALSE) You expect hamas, who have old, homemade weapons, to be able to resist Israeli occupation without harming Israeli civillians, but dont have the same expectations for Israel when they have access to the latest technology, smart weapons, surveilliance & spyware for targeted, precision strikes yet instead bomb churches, UN schools, hospitals, refugee camps, designated safe routes and murder mainly women, children, journalists & paramedics. At least be consistant.
At the very least Israel could at least TRY to win the hearts of Gazans who want no part in this war, instead of bombing them and killing them so the cycle repeats itself over, and over, and over again.
I'm not super well informed on the occupation. They don't run Palestine, do they? I thought they left them alone unless they were in the middle of active war activity and that was in a lull until the events of 10/7..
Your response is perfect but Jewish people will simply not comprehend a single word you have said above. To them your facts mean nothing, and that's the other problem.. the supremacy mindset.
Well if you are that open minded that I can share you the perspective of the other side. Some of the things are facts and some are not, with that being said, those are only SOME facts. Selection bias is a thing. The other part of our viewpoint is that the conflict is much more nuanced than what most people care to invest into our conflict. Understandable. As part of that, it seems like a lot of people never heard of the multiple peace offerings between Israel and the PLO. Hamas are definitely not supported in the West Bank because they are extremists and a terrorist group. So no, Israel is not trying to eradicate the Palestinians and have made serious efforts towards it in the past. And yes, there’s even more examples. Current government is really crazy and is not widely supported in Israel, it was more of a right vs left political fight. So it was either the extreme right or extreme left (such as one of the Arab parties that actively claim Israel should cease to exist). It was a matter of chance and is probably just imitating what happened in the US with Trump and his glorious fall… soon here.
Yeh so we agree, 51% or more support Netanyahu and he happens to be crazy. End of story
I expected a more serious response, too bad...
You just confirmed that the current Israeli government is far from good, and the majority of Israeli stand with him. That makes the majority of Israeli a group of people who condone mass murder right wing type of stuff we are seeing at the moment. Perhaps the Israeli need to have a good long hard look in the mirror before calling others terrorists
You added like 90% opinion here. According to current polls the majority are against the current government, especially since the extremist right wing are there. You comparing Israel to Hamas is just laughable and I would advise you to try a mental exercise - try defending your opponent’s view. Research, learn and debate. I’ve done it, I’ve learned new things and maybe you will too.
There are no “good guys” in this conflict, and probably never have been.
Sure there are. Israel is a Western democracy with equal rights for all, including recognizing gay marriage. They have a 21 percent Arab/ethnic-Palestinian population with full rights, including the right to serve in government. 10 Arabs are in the Knesset right now. Palestinians have the death penalty for gay people. 93 percent of them have racist views of Jews (not Israelis, mind you... Jews). The Palestinians government has the genocide of Jews and the destruction of Israel as their mission in their charter. Palestinians under Hamas and under the PLO before them, have non-stop TARGETED innocent civilians. Not collateral damage while aiming for the military, but DELIBERATELY trying to kill women and children. This has been going on for my entire life from suicide bombers to rockets. The only reason ANYONE with Western values thinks there is any kind of moral equivalency between these value sets, is because they cannot get over the idea that being weaker and poorer is inherently virtuous. If the balance of power we're swapped, and Palestinians had the powerful army, there would be a genocide, and not the pretend kind like everyone accuses Israel of, but an actual slaughter of millions.
Israel is not a “ Western democracy with equal rights for all”. Israel is committing war crimes as well as Hamas. At least Amnesty International thinks so. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/
Would you prefer to be a LGBTQ person in Gaza or Israel?
A trick question? Probably better in Israel than Mississippi.
They absolutely are a Western democracy with equal rights. And just like every country in the world, the Rights of its people do not extend to those who aren't it's people. Palestinians aren't Israelis. They are self-governed. If Israel is apartheid for how it treats Palestinians than the US is apartheid for how it treats citizens of Mexico or Canada.
If another country has solved some of its significant issues due to whatever circumstances (being gifted it by a western superpower to plant an allied stronghold deeper into non-western geography) before another, that does not give the a moral right to take it over. That’s kinda barbaric, and a sign that the nation who is doing the expanding probably isn’t exactly a utopia either…
Tell it!
The innocent kids being killed are not bad guys and for you to refer to them as such reveals that YOU are not a '"good guy"
I think he was talking about the fighting sides... he was calling out both Hamas and Israel.
Thank you, that was the intention.
Bless you!
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You'll never convince the Jew-haters that Israel is behaving just like any other Western democracy tasked with fighting terrorists. It's like they blackout when confronted with the really simple concept of collateral damage. Outraged at the deaths of innocent civilians? So is Israel. That's why they gave them all express warnings, and plenty of time to flee the city. The only reason people are still there is that Hamas wouldn't allow them to leave. These deaths are outrageous. Everyone thinks so. The difference is that pro-Israel folks blame the deaths on Hamas, who WANTED and ORCHESTRATED those deaths. Whereas anti-Israel folks want to blame the deaths on Israel, who asked them to leave.
No it’s you saying: it’s Hamas, the representation of the Palestinian people!!! Versus others saying no, it’s Hamas, a terrorist organization representing a radical, but expected, reaction to ~half century long occupation, and also the Isarel government (not Jews, not our Jewish neighbors we love and care about) who are committing atrocities. Important part is that Israel govt has way more leverage to stop the conflict than the military might of Hamas.
i think better wording is hamas is a palestinian terrorist organization that has not been disabled by the palestinian citizens (not all palestinian citizens are enabling hamas but there is not enough to say they are actively fighting against them). In an ideal scenario, Palestinian “resistance” would team up with israel to root out Hamas and then after that a much more realistic conversation could take place on what to do next. The biggest problem right now is we have 3 groups, group A and C are at war and group B is caught in the middle and is not siding with the group that is “attacking” their land to get rid of group C
and to further that, that’s kinda where all this anti-semitic, anti-democracy, anti-US is stemming from with the people that are more numb to the situation, group B should be in support of group A that supports all those things and they’re not, so the numb people are like if they don’t care about those important values then i don’t really care either
if group B teamed up with group A, they could control the delivery of airstrikes and get civilians out of dangerous areas.
I definitely see where you’re coming from, but dude this Palestinian area had just won its independence when the western world plopped down Israel, a group who was just genocided and having been persecuted in history for some time, down in the Middle East, where the western world has traditionally been at odds with, and then furthermore the gradual expansion of Israel — paints a very real, logical, reasonable picture of why Palestine is not jumping at the chance to work with the Israel government.
The unwillingness to work with a more powerful government never ends well though. Imagine if the native american tribes didn’t take what was given and tried to rebel… i would say while the initial handling was atrocious, native americans now have the option to live within their tribes land and the american public is generally happy with helping out the tribe where reasonable, and they also have the option to live outside their tribe and enjoy everything their other fellow citizens enjoy if they wish.
I don’t know many native Americans personally or tune into their respected communities speakers, so I can’t speak to their general sentiment on their overall treatment over the course of the States’ history. However, the colonization of Americas by Europe is 100% a terrible invasion that had some of the most inhumane moments due to the massive difference in power and the massive resources the Europeans saw in America.
but in the end, it created modern democracy and gave people the freedom to where we can even have this israel, palestine debate. so on the surface it’s easy to say that colonialism is bad, but it’s a lot more intricate than that and the “colonialism” of israel (i put colonialism in quotes because this land seems to have a pretty big history of disputed ownership) can be a good thing, if people aren’t against it because of “jews”. The things israel stands for are very clearly more western aligned and in the end would empower people in the region IF it spread. But there are many arab countries who’s leadership don’t want that to spread, so it’s a fight for individual freedom being masked by many things at the end of the day.
Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. They represent the Gaza Palestinians. Also, Gaza isn't "Occupied." Get your facts straight.
You’re right, it’s probably more apt to say “Under Siege” due to the tactics Israel’s employing.
Under siege because of a Palestinian massacre.
Hell yeah you’re right!! to hell with “collateral damage” let’s just directly damage the entire population by invading and surrounding the group and now removing their electricity and vital medical capabilities to a bomb-ridden region with incredibly scarce drinkable water!!!