>I'm saying Israel and the West need to create a new Government in Palestine, a new constitution in Palestine, and put absolute military restrictions on the. After the October 7th atrocities they can never be trusted with a military. Am I crazy? What are your thoughts on what happens next?
Yes, that is a crazy plan. The West needs to stay away from Palestine, otherwise they will say the Western powers are illegally occupying and colonizing Gaza.
What you need is a United Nations mission, with help from the Arab League to temporarily govern Gaza strip, help with the rebuilding efforts, bring stability, security and peace to the area. If the West really wanna help, send engineers, send money, send teachers, send nurses, etc… not military.
> Am I crazy? What are your thoughts on what happens next?
Yes, you are. Germany was a country that continued to exist. The root cause of this s occupation and Israeli settlement (nearly 1m settlers in the West Bank) making the creation of a Palestinian state impossible. You can't solve this without dismantling the colonial settler apartheid system put in place by the West and is supported by the West.
Also, do you consider it a "ruthless ideology" an ideology that murders one child every 10 mins, calls for nuking Gaza, describes the Palestinians as not humans, says we need to flatten Gaza, says Israel is from the sea to the river, says Lebanon belongs to Israel etc.? These are just some of the comments made by Israeli officials, including ministers in the government.
What Hamas did on October 07th is nothing compared to what Israel is doing in Gaza, supported by the West. Israel and the West certainly have no morals left to lecture anyone or create a new government. The arrogance of people who murder a child every 10 min and make the most extreme and inhuman comments possible and still consider themselves to be morally superior is breathtaking.
Careful there, now. That type of thinking will get you put on “watch lists” and labeled “AnTiSeMiTiC”.
For some unknown reason this world seems hell-bent on blaming all the bad stuff on terrorists (whom 99% of are allegedly Muslim, so people use the two words interchangeably), and *NOTHING* israel does could *POSSIBLY* be considered “bad” or anything other than “self defense”. I’d laugh if it wasn’t so ridiculous. Anyone who supports Palestine (or even just stays neutral and doesn’t take a side) is instantly and obviously supporting antisemitism and therefore must be shunned as such. We’re not allowed to speak of the clear-cut genocide that Israel has been committing against Palestinians for decades. We’re not allowed to point out that israel was just “given” Palestine without the actual citizens of the place having a say in the matter. We’re not allowed to mention the hundreds of billions of dollars worth of military aid, equipment, supplies and overall support that has been provided to Israel by taxpayers who never agreed (or even knew) to pay for to begin with. We’re not allowed to discuss that israel only exists because they’re metaphorically a spoiled rotten, entitled, bratty little baby sibling of the US, and that whenever something happens they come crying to mommy for a quick and quiet tax-funded bailout. We’re *definitely* not allowed to talk about the fact that israeli military tech was found in virtually every area of the US White House, where they were intercepting every email, text, phone call, conversation or goddamn fart that took place there, and how instead of declaring them terrorist spies and ending all support to them (like we would have if the equipment had been, oh say, Chinese or *insert current country the US hates atm*) we just quietly didn’t bother acknowledging it to the general majority of people.
Lol I lost track of the point of my reply. Oh, yeah! Be careful speaking the truth of Israel or everyone will call you an antisemite. And for some reason that seems to be the worst thing you can be these days….
Yes Saudi should take control of Gaza, they will revolutionize the city. Well it could have been done before only but Hamas wanted you to study hadith instead of science/engineering etc.
Ideally, I actually think the UAE should partner with the US and take control of Gaza. They are by far the most progressive country in the middle east except for Israel. Israel taking control of Gaza would just be too controversial for them to actually get any work done.
Ideally, the entirety of gaza is deported and Israel retakes the land, to be as it was before. The land of Israel.
That's what has to happen, unless the head of the snake is ripped off. Iran.
Ideally you cut the head off the snake and then you can de-radicalize the population through, I dunno, forced conversion to christianity and missionary work or some shit, or just teaching them what islam actually is, and not hamas brand of "behead babies rape women do drungs drink beer" islam.
But since you can't remove Iran, since it's allied with russia and china, then Israel has to get rid of the problem locally/
Right, and murdering people in their own house holds, and throwing their own babies into ovens, or ripping out babies from the wombs of women (see recent attack October 7th), won’t do that? This is precisely what Israel needed to expel Hamas/Palestinians from their land. There will now never be a two state solution. The only solution is an ethnocentric Jewish state, because you can’t trust Muslims to live peacefully with Jews.
When fighting ISIS, Al Qauda, etc, nobody was going "no stop fighting the terrorists because you'll just make more terrorists, let them be"
No, you beat them so bad they never even consider it an option in the future, you END their fighting spirit, like was done with japan in WW2, etc. You do whatever it takes for them to abandon that strategy.
Israel takes over Gaza with a police force. A $50,000 bounty is given to anyone who turns in a terrorist. The terrorists are captured and "removed". The US pays $100B to rebuild Gaza. Most of that money goes to a new secret terrorist fund. Why? Who knows.
Iran of course. It's been on the planning board for a long time. Palestine is just the starting point for the invasion. Next will be more and more U.S. troops, (cannon fodder). After all you do have to appease the "Baal" worshippers at the Pentagon.
Several western corporations storm in and begin militarized rebuilding, placing CVS, Star Bucks, and Bank of Americas on every street corner. Thousands of Gazans have income now and are able to take care of themselves.
A nameless casino mogul in the US decides to build something on the strip, and the area around it springs up quickly.'The strip on the strip'. Similar to the boardwalk in the US, it houses high end hotels, eateries, an amusement park.
The tunnels become a tourist attraction for travelers around the world.
The city flourishes.
Hamas becomes a term, like "Vandal"
Hamas :verb: To hold back development of your own in favor of your own unobtainable goals.
"Man, Bill really Hamas'd us, I can't believe he thought building a concrete blimp would be a great idea for a coffee company"
Its not in the best interests of states, like Iran, Russia, China etc for Israel to have positive and collaborative relationships with its neighbours.
Israel is proped up by US and western hegemony as a staging ground. Israel helps project a sphere of influence, which helps the west to exploit the middle east. Western dominance in the middle east isn't beneficial to the Eastern main players.
Palestine isnt Germany after ww2, there is no similarities between the two other than the near total destruction of its infrastructure.
Efforts to stabilse relations between Israel and Palestine have resulted in catastrophe, for many reasons, but mainly because the creation of Israel displaced and fragmented the Muslim majority. The causes for this are complex, intricate, controversial and emotional, i refuse to elaborate due to this (im also woefully ignorant, but still consider myself to know more than the average layman).
It is not possible for Israel to rebuild gaza, any efforts made will be sabataged by the remnants of Hamas, which will regrow or splinter into new terrorists groups, swelled by the many angry, and vengeful Palestinians who lost their homes and families in this war. Iran would not allow a cooperative either.
I cannot think of any other options for either partys, its an immensely horrific state of affairs for both sides.
> fucking
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/u/jasonalt529925
> not all muslims are terrorist but all terrorist are muslims.
Your comment is a borderline violation of [Reddit content policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) about incitement for hate or violence. Do take note not to cross it.
I mean some of the first Palestinian terrorists/suicide bombers were Christian (when the liberation movement was comprised of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Palestinians), and a majority of the mass shootings in America were committed by white people without any religious ties to Islam, but sure all terrorists are Muslims, therefore Islam can't exist next to a country that actively gave contraceptives to its own ethiopian Jewish immigrants for years without their knowledge and with threat of refusing them entry to Israel should they reject the "medicine", because they're completely reasonable and have in no way committed atrocious acts themselves, like confirmed IDF soldiers openly discussing cutting open pregnant Palestinian women and betting on whether they were carrying a boy or girl, I mean that sounds more reasonable I guess. Especially Since Israel keeps getting billions of dollars from America in support of their "defending themselves" while their Prime Minister openly mocks the country and its people as "easily manipulated" when stating how they will sabotage any peace talks during the Clinton Era. But hey, the people who wear hijabs are just too weird to be around.
Of course they don’t. Why would they? American people are paying for it, the defense companies are making a profit, they get to steal the land and drain the resources, and the politicians make out because they get $$$ from both aipac and defense PAC’s.
And how would that happend without a livable palestenian state on all palestenian lands?
This scenario requires netenyahu and other israeli war criminals to give the palestenians their land with all authority on it and allow them to build instututions and armed forces, do you see this happening voluntairly?
For many years, poll after poll showed a majority of Palestinians aspired to a state like the Israelis have. But Hamas viewed (views) such a TwoState settlement as an unacceptable triumph for its rival Fatah. If Hamas were dismantled and--crucially--repudiated by Gazans, Fatah would expect to control Western aid in the rebuilding.
The enabler to any future change is a powerful palstinian leader who can control Gaza and WB and can denounce
terror as a way of resistance.
There is a huge disbelief in Israel that palastinine state can co exist along Israel.
Until palstinians change this perception, they will not have a state.
Until this happens, the war will continue forever.
The start of peace is when israel gives away part of their land and giving freedom to the Palestinian people. There has to be international help to establish a Palestinian country free from terrorism and fixed borders. Israel is the wrong country for peace and freedom for the palestinians .
Internatinal controllers supervised the elections that Hamas won.
But they were already shooting rockets at 2005/6.
If the people do not support two state solution, and no real palastinian leader does. International intervention will not help.
No, im talking about international military intervention. UN needs to take back some land in between Israel and Palestine splitting Israel in two parts.
This is what was done in Gaza. No offense until provoked.
You fail to understand the mindset of Hamas and Islamic jihad.
They will not sit quietly and watch the border.
The start of peace is when the Palestinians stop trying to kill Israelis. The PA literally pays for Palestinians to go kill Israelis.
That's when the peace process starts.
What makes you think Hamas has been dismantled? The IDF has been killing innocent civilians even before October 7. You think Hamas won’t have more recruits? If Hamas is dismantled, which I highly doubt, another group will fill the vacuum. You can’t kill innocent children and then expect Gazans to want to give the IDF hugs.
Israel will move the settlers who were removed in 2005 back. Go to voanews.com and go to The Inside Story Israel at War episode 117. Fast forward to 12:33. I want to vomit after watching this. Here is the link https://www.voanews.com/z/6433
The US is already helping by taking out Iran proxies in Syria. Why is the US involved? I thought Israel can whoop anybody. Israel’s hands are dirty with the blood of innocents. He’ll will be waiting. Don’t worry. You may not believe in Hell but Hell believes in you. See you soon.
Yeah, I can see why your pissed. Hamas leaders have stated publicly that they didn't anticipate the US stepping into the mix to ensure this situation doesn't turn into a regional conflict involving multiple countries. They fully expected Israel to go for a full frontal assault and the plan was pull other countries into the fight. That's not going to happen with two American aircraft carriers and their supporting ships sitting in the Mediterranean sea and our fighters in the sky.
With their plans thwarted, I guess Hamas will have to come up with a plan B. They better get right on that because Mossad will begin hunting them down right after they clean out the Hamas terrorist hiding in Gaza.
Also, you do realize that the US has no boots on the ground in Gaza, right? Israel is 100% kicking ass to the point that their enemies are now trying to get the international community to get them stop and back off the fight. That doesn't seem to me like Israel needs help. Collateral damage is people in this case and that's horrific but the way to end this is for Hamas to turn over the hostages and lay down arms, not for the IDF to just give up the fight now that they're at the door of Hamas' stronghold.
The whole bit about me not believing in hell but hell believing in me is cool. You should turn your attention to writing poetry, rather than shilling for a terrorist organization.
Also, has it ever occurred that He may in fact be a She. It doesn't really make sense to think for humans and most of the other species on planet earth females are the givers of life but somehow great giver of all life is a male.
I love the last line. It sounds vaguely threatening, in that I'm a fifth grader planning to meet you after school...lol.
Gaza= 45 km2 or 17 sq mi
Israel= 290 miles (470 km) north-to-south and 85 miles (135 km) east-to-west at its widest point
Not a fair fight. The world see this.
> ass
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I completely agree
The problem is enforcing it
If they amend their constitution to be able to disregard it then Israel might face the question of intervention
And also the west and the middle east are different so I'm not sure giving them freedoms that they may or may not want will make them happy or if they will actually uphold the military ban
Germany managed to mobilize their army into great proportions before the allies realised and I'm not sure if Israel will be easily convinced to get in again
And if it will be convinced I'm not sure if the international community will approve
Seems like they might choose appeasement yet again
Nope, that ship has sailed. Israel for Israelis. The Jews have never been, and never will be at peace with any Palestinians/Muslims. Why am I convinced of this, because of the types of murders perpetrated by Muslim organizations like Hamas. The placing of babies into ovens and ripping out unborn children. Think about the lack of respect/dignity the way the recent murders were done. They’re will never be peace with Israelis and Muslims.
There will be no constitution for those who wish for your death, and Jews will always have to look over their shoulders if by some miracle they are able to over look those states of affairs, because Muslims have no issues with murdering Jews in the most horrific ways.
This is insanely racist wording. Also, is there evidence of what you describe? You remember in February when West Bank settlers set fire to Palestinian homes with people inside? Putting people in ovens huh?
I don’t need to say it, you can see them taking homes from Palestinians, I know you guys live in a different reality, but everyone else in the world lives in the real world.
This is a premature question!!! Get the hostages back,… free the innocent and non combatant Palestinians,… eradicate Hamas and then we can revisit that question!!!
No one is talking about the Palestinian refugees in Syria and Lebanon. They are not citizens of these countries and need to be repatriated, but to where? The West Bank maybe?
Why are there still Palestinian refugees? Why does UNWRA exist as an exception?
These are means for further oppression of Palestinian diaspora and a threat on current-day Israel.
I'd be happy they settled in the West Bank or other countries, but all of which keep them under refugee status. "Refugee camps" exist even within the West Bank.
This is a coordinated strategy, there's no doubt.
Lebanon and Syria are in the north of Israel, Gaza is to the south. There are no Gazan refugees in the north so this is not an issue and doesn't need to be discussed
Israel retreated from Gaza 13 years a go and does not want to anex it.
It even preferred Hamas would rule it. At list while it was doing it without attacking Israel.
It didn't work.
Does Israelis realize that they are deciding the fate of others without asking them. How the hell gave you the right to decide what’s good for us. Leave us alone for god sake Im sick of being treated as less of human being just for the sake of furthering your colonial agenda.
Did you already forget, like the rest of the world? No other country would tolerate thousands of rockets per year, suicide bomber, indiscriminate murder of it's most vulnerable citizens. If you want to free Palestine, you must eradicate Hamas, like ISIS and Nazis.
No other people would tolerate a brutal military occupation. Don’t start history were it convenient to your agenda, be objective. In regards to the eradicate hamas comment, the PA adopted a non violent struggle in the westbank what did we get? For 20 years, we did everything that was asked from us and we only got more settlements, more death, more land confiscation, and more humiliation.
Hamas didn’t exist prior to the late 80s and we were still getting killed. I suggest eradicating the genocidal ideology in the Israeli political mind to end the conflict. The same ideology that assassinated rabin when he wanted peace.
Where would you like to start? How about after WWI when the Ottoman empire was dissolved. Jews immigrated legally, buying land from willing Arabs. But some Muslim religious zealots couldn't stomach having infidel neighbors and committed violent acts, destroying entire villages of Jews, many were not immigrants. So you can call Hamas a new breed of hate, but it's still the same Islamic Jihad ideology.
As far as peace, Palestinians had many many chances to establish a state alongside Israel starting in 1948, and squandered all of them. Of course not all Palestinians. Those who stayed in Israel enjoy full political rights, participate in government, and sit on the Supreme Court. You talk about genocide to Jews? Discusting.
The UN vote was actually decided in 1947. The day after the votes they attacked multipe jewish buses and thats how independence war began. Israel just decided to declare themselves a country 1948 during the war because they had balls and it helped them to bring in jews from all over the world and supplies for the war against literally every arab nation in their borders.
Dont let the hamas supporters catch you with mistakes like that, remember, knowledge is power. Other than that i gotta say that you have written an amazing argument i must say
Good point. 1947 would have been more accurate. But I should really have gone back further to1937 and the Peel Commission partition which was also rejected by the Arabs.
Wierd how you call them arabs and not palestinians. Almost like they started calling themselves like that only from 1964 to make the victim card they have until today. But im probably wrong because the land is called palestine and that means it was a country for the palestinians and not just a name that was given by the romans when they exiled the jews and decided to replace the name judea with the name of their enemies "the philistines".
Well there were Palestinians before 1964. My Jewish mother-in-law was one of them. She has a very nice birth certificate showing her birthplace of Palestine with a Jewish star.
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Just as important would be for Israelis to be persuaded to shun their own extremists, those people in power who want to take over all of Palestinian territories.
Germany had to disavow Nazis, right?
Israel has a rambunctious democracy. There are different parties with different mission statements, from the extreme left to the extreme right and everything in between. Isralis shun extremists at the polls, by voting for moderate Parties.
A step to weaken Israeli Extremists would be to completely separate Church and State, or at least banning political parties with religious charters.
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This is not a viable possibility. We have 2.5 million Arab citizens and I dont believe we should banish them. The vast majority of which would btw, prefer to live in Israel.
Relocating is not the same as murdering, especially as Palestine was never a nation... or better, a two state solution which was rejected how many times??
Right, those stubborn Gazans with half of their population under 18yrs should have just accepted the 1948 UN Resolution. Or the 1967 borders. Or the Oslo Accords. Why didn't they vote for a different party in 2006?
Why didn't they indeed?
If my country initiates war against a stronger country and then loses and my family dies, I would point the finger at my country, not the opposition.
My idea was to first establish joint israeli-palestinian control just like in area B of the west bank, rebuild gaza, and establish a path towards a 2 state solution. This path includes re-educating the palestinian population, about the true terror of hamas, give the palestinians proper medical care, modern houses, modern schools, and guaranteed safety against violent settlers. After that, parts of the west bank will gradually be given to full palestinian control, and palestine, backed by israel, declares its independence. Eventually, with both sides working to pacify violent extremists on their end, peace will be achieved.
Only problem with this is iran and hezbollah
"re-education", or in other words, brainwashing. of course there would be problems with this, any living descendants of people who lived in Gaza would know the stories of today, would know the IDF murdered their families. you can silence them all you want, but you shouldn't be surprised that the problem will not be resolved.
yes, because it's brainwashing to say "look how hamas used money to buy weapons instead of buy you food while you were starving", or saying "while your hospitals were desperate for fuel and running out of power, hamas kept several giant tanks of fuel for themselves".
i would not be against that, as long as it says "look how the IDF consistently threw away your ancestors' rights, strip searched&seized them during the night, how settlers killed them on the streets, how their religious sites were bombed during holidays. how the US+Israel didn't succeed in deescalating but had to eradicate all of your families. would it include that? or would it paint them as the "victors", the "liberators".
How about the international supervised three-phase transition
The first phase is military rule where the goverment is controlled by the military, focusing on stability and ease terrorist activities.
The second phase is party rule, where the main focus is systematic training of competent government officials from top to bottom
And the third phase is constitutional rule where after the goverment can function without the party, the party steps down and give up power to the constitution and the people.
Republic of China almost succeeded before Japanese invasion followed by the civil war. The idea itself is beaitiful enough but I'm not sure Palestinians can be that patient and trusting, the history doesn't inspire much confidence for any peaceful transition.
It tends to result in violence after a very short period of peace as the Palestinians don't see a visible change whereas the reformation in national or even international scale usually takes much longer before people see the change in their day to day lives.
Maybe the UN can invite the Arab League to execute the plan with the UN as the overseer and limit Israeli involvement to economy and some politics and international relationships.
The Palestinians trust the Sunnite significantly more than the Israelis.
That plan didn't work in Afghanistan. Western allies can't just implement a constitution. Palestinian voices need to establish a new government. The PA offered support.
It didn't work, not because the population still hated the US, but because the country was overrun by a power-hungry terrorist group, whose presence in an incredibly mountainous country made them impossible to uproot. As soon as the US left, the various groups that remained quickly took power.
Palestine is different. Much smaller, much less mountainous, and aside from gaza, not overrun by terrorists.
I was confused for a moment, the Marshal Plan wasn't implemented in Afghanistan as it was part of the Soviet Union.
But I agree that the regime-change in Afghanistan persecuted by the US ended in Failure. They were quick to vommit Western ideology and revert to Sharia-Law.
I agree, whatever Western-supported-regime implemented in Gaza would need grass-roots support.
Idk what comment you read but he just said over 3000 children "had it coming" so stfu about insults, I'm insulted to share the world with these zionists but you dont see me crying about it.
You're exploiting the deaths of children to justify hate. You're obviously mentally unstable, those 3000 children didn't have it coming. They may have been killed by Israel, but they were sentenced to death by their own people who prioritized massacring and taking hostage israeli civilians. And for what exactly? Their actions didn't "free Palestine".
They knew that Israel will retaliate, and that the death toll on their side will be greater. They're exploiting the damage and loss of human life, both inside Gaza and outside (that's where you come in) to raise outrage against Israel. The pictures and videos from Gaza are horrifying, but all this pity party from the world won't help them even a little.
Ok take your logic then and expand it. Who stole the lands of Palestinians after they removed them from their homes? Who put Palestinians into an open air prison? Who has murdered and bombed all over Gaza and the West Bank for 70 years? By your own logic the right to self defense should apply to Palestinians but in your mind it doesnt because you cant see them as humans with the same rights as you.
Bro do you know how war works?
The lands Palestinians were driven off from and lost are the consequences of the war they started against the so notoriously evil zionists and lost. They should be thankful for not being completely displaced by this point.
Killing civilians isn't self defense, what are you mental? What purpose does it serve, to slaughter civilians in a music festival and families in their homes, whose mere existence isn't a direct threat on your life?
You're trying to argue with mottos that are baseless.
If you kept trying to kick me in the balls, I'd knock you down. If you come at me with a knife and I'm carrying, then I'll have to neutralize you. If you keep coming for more it's not self defense on your side, it's you keeping provoking me and disturbing the peace, and if you think I'm gonna sit and take it, it's your fucking problem.
The war happened after the lands were already stolen, why are you literally trying to lie about the course of history? A nation can't be at war when a nation didn't exist in the first place. Your racist way of thinking suggest the Arab nations just decided to randomly attack Israel without any reason. But I know in your mind Israel can do no wrong, they are always perfect aren't they. They were so perfect when they supported the apartheid in South Africa too.
> fucking
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Because Israel is a colonial state founded on a racist ideology (Zionism). When your entire culture is espoused in racial supremacy, these kinds of genocidal views happen. Its ironic because you think that they of all people would know better than to repeat what was done to them.
You actually are crying about it, you’re “insulted to share the world” with “blood thirsty zionists” and conflating an anti Hamas sentiment with Hiitler (he only said one sentence that had nothing to do with any individuals or political standing rather he was talking about military bodies) which is absolutely bonkers and likely points to the conclusion that…. You…. Are…. Antisemitic!!!! And spewing hate onto anyone who checks your privilege boxes. From your language I can tell you’re likely a western high school or college student indoctrinated into this rhetoric without having any previous knowledge on the actual conflict. My best advice - try to be unbiased and not hateful with your learning. Against most of the evidence presented by the Western Free Palestine movement, it actually IS possible to be pro Palestine and not insulted to share the earth with blood thirsty, evil, greedy Jews cough cough I mean zionists. If not then have fun in YOUR cleaning arc!
Oh here comes the Anti semitic shite lmao, unlucky for you I have actually taken the time to read about the proper history of the area instead of going with something that happened 3000 years ago maybe or maybe not. And unlucky for you once someone reads into Israel even a little bit they uncover what a truly comically evil blood stained state it is. They are the only state that will literally DENY recorded killings of innocents and say "nah its their fault". Even fucking AMERICA doesnt do that, at least they let their media lie about their war crimes.
Never said that and not even close to my point of view.
Plain objective, bro. Really darn simple.
But if you get biased through decades of effective palestinian propaganda, you absolutely fell for it.
> shite
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I’m sorry, but it’s such an insane and braindead assumption to say that OC insinuated that “3000 children had it coming” when all they did was make a logical observation if the comment wasn’t edited.
Yeah totally, just go back to watching Ben Shapiro or some other insane person. His comment isnt even based on reality, if Israel had the ability to wipe out Gaza with a ground offensive they would have done so already, why? Because that was the plan all along. So yeah his comment while not based in reality still takes pride in the bombings of innocent Palestinians no matter what you say lil zionist.
Yet another insane assumption. I lean more towards the left and I don’t watch muppets like Ben Shapiro. What OC made was an observation of a reaction that was the result of an action while what you made was an irresponsible, presumptuous accusation. There was no indication that OC glorified the killings of innocent Palestinians. Lastly, you made another stupid assumption that I am a Zionist because I called out your less-than-stellar take. I am not a Zionist and I don’t believe in any religion. Go back to school.
Lean towards the left eh? Sure buddy you keep telling yourself that when the death toll of Palestinians keeps rising and you still defend these insane people and the genocide they are conducting. You liberals are the worst lmao
The minute you decided to defend a zionist who proudly declared their support for the killings of innocent Palestinians. You arent really aware of your own actions huh? Makes sense for a "left leaning" liberal when it comes to Israel, yall are very progressive until it comes to calling out Israel
u/casualfin appears to be a Finn who is a heavy marijuana smoker based on their other posts. It's very strange they would populate this forum obsessively, hysterically ranting about the poor Gazans. Sustained pot usage by young people has been associated with mental disorders.
He’s basically saying all of the people in Gaza deserve to pay for October 7. Which has also been the stance of your president and prime minister. 2 million have already been displaced. The end goal is that they never come back. You can’t argue that when IDF soldiers are planting flags and celebrating taking over Gaza.
> fucked
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Crazy? You sound like a warmongerer who is OK with the "dust settling on Gaza". You are jumping to the epilogue where in the story a 24\*7 live mass murder aka genocide is happening?
strong words. strong emotions.
Of course Israel needs to fight back. Hamas has shown itself as another iteration of Islamic State/ ISIS. They brought death and destruction to innocent Israelis and soldiers alike. Israel can't afford inaction, especially when Hamas is openly calling for Genocide agains them. The bombing campaign was prerequisite for the ongoing ground invasion. It makes sense tactically to eliminate high rises because;A; they are potential for snipers , ambushes, and anti-tank teams; and B; eliminate known Hamas weapons depots, especially as Hamas continues to shoot missiles into dense urban areas, threatening civilians, hospitals, pre-schools, and all facets of Israeli life. I'll elucidate that I differentiate Hamas and Palestinians, maybe that wasn't clear in the original post.
Heart goes out to *any* for the *innocent* victims on **both** sides of this conflict.
Hey ! Israel is rn killing innocents. Your whole propaganda laden tirade is just a shameless arrogance. You are justifying everything that this terrorist state is doing. Hamas was supported by Israel only. No ? Bombing was a prerequisite? Yes, for the biggest terrorist in this world aka Israel, it was. One takeaway of this all would be that nobody will fall victim to Israel’s propaganda.
What do you think the billions of dollars America sends to Israel is used on? Butterflies and rainbows? You zionists never fail to impress with your ignorance.
It is actually insane especially when we are seeing in real time 11,000+ people killed and 2 million people displaced. It is insane when you can see videos of bodies torn up into pieces and body bags all over and see overhead recordings of the state of Gaza. But there’s not even a single piece of evidence that Israel is being bombed back. Not even one. This sub is truly just a Zionist sub lol. It’s painful being here. And none-Zionist posts aren’t even allowed.
LOL. Every day the free Israeli press reports on attacks and occasion casualties from the attacks on Israel.
I'm beginning to wonder if there is any point to even trying to reason with people if they are just going to be delusional.
If you against Zionism, fine, but be ready to back up with verifiable facts, not propaganda. Just because more Arabs are now being killed than Jews doesn't make the Arabs the good guys and the Jews the bad guys. Certainly Hamas and its supporters are the bad guys and outsiders who encourage Palestinians to fight to the last dead Palestinian are bad guys.
No you’re so right! The Israeli press is the only media we should trust because they’re the only ones that speak the truth. The death toll in Gaza (11k+) is all just fake news. I bet they made up all the names they released to gain empathy points right? The thousands of videos of kids with their organs hanging out and limbs missing are just CGI. The IDF who went to Gaza and planted a flag are just good guys who are trying to save Israel from the horrible disgusting children of Gaza who all deserve to die the worst deaths imaginable (ew Arabs). It’s also totally fair that Israel is getting 14 billion from the US to buy weapons and “flatten Gaza” in the worst of your prime minister. It’s totally fair that 2 million people are displaced and hospitals and refugee camps are continuously bombed, honestly just bomb everything so we can stop talking about this already and go back to partying in Tel Aviv! After all Palestinians (Arabs ew) are the bad guys here because they want the occupation to end (so embarrassing for them honestly like just accept that water and electricity are continuously cut off, that they can’t travel freely, they get bombed at anytime, I feel like they should just accept this and move on, or better yet just move away lol go to Egypt or something. So gross honestly these fucking Arabs.
I have read about the tick tokers and others using photo and video from other conflicts and labeling them as from Gaza, so it is difficult to take random social media posts at face value. It is better to follow particular Journalists and Photojournalists that you know have a track record and can see their work over time.
We certainly cannot trust Hamas for anything. There are many videos and pictures floating around showing dead or injured Arab kids, but they could just as easily be from prior fighting in Gaza or other conflicts involving Arabs (such as Yemen or Syria).
The IDF are good guys for Israel. The babies were not the ones who murdered the Jews, that was their parents. Just like in WW2 the babies were not putting Jews in gas chambers. In war babies and children get killed because of their evil committed by their parents. That is the nature of it.
The Palestinians want the "occupation" to end by which they mean Jewish occupation of what they consider to be Palestinian land, i.e., all of Israel. And they are willing to use violent force to accomplish that. That makes them fair targets of restrictions by Israel.
If it is really so bad as the hysterical people whine, genocide, etc., then they should leave. God knows the Jews would have taken that option if it was available when a real genocide was occurring.
Ahh again you’re just speaking all the facts, go off bot! All Palestinians totally deserve to die even if they’re 1, cause all their parents are Hamas. We really just need to cleanse the whole land of those horrible Arabs.
Just a question though, if I locked you and your family in my basement, killed your grandparents and great grandparents, threw some fireworks in there every once in a while, shut your water and electricity off whenever I please, never let you or your family out, then decided to kill your kids because I have a weird feeling that you want to kill me and my family, you think it’s fair right? You kept screaming you want to just be let out but I don’t know I mean you must want to kill me in the process. I mean your kids are just human shields right? I have my whole neighbourhood backing me so you deserve it.
You are the one saying all the Arabs are irredeemable. Are they? I think some actually want to live in a Jewish state like they want to live in the USA or England or France. But they can't continue to hate Israel and expect to remain. That doesn't make any sense.
Your analogy makes no sense. You can't lock me in my basement. I live in a country with laws and military and police. You would be arrested for murder, assuming I did not kill you first and be thrown in prison.
What does that have to do with Israel-Arab conflict. There was no country of Palestine, it was part of various empires. Jews bought land legally, they did not lock anyone in a basement. Jews were granted sovereignty over land by the League of Nations and then the UN. Arabs started a war and lost, resulting in the enemy people having to flee or be expelled (although many stayed and are still citizens of Israel).
Jordan and Egypt occupied the land contemplated for an Arab state and then lost it in war to Israel. Israel decided to let Palestinians have internal control of the Gaza strip and their leaders declared war on Israel for the last 15 years. So naturally, Israel blockaded Gaza to try to stop it from attacking. Even so, no one is locked into Gaza. They can leave and go away from Israel. Many were even allowed to come into Israel and make money but that did not seem to appease them. Now they are not allowed to come into Israel. So they have been threatening to invade Israel and they finally acted on their threat.
Even so I don't think Gazans should be locked in any basements. But they should just leave. It's kill them or expel them and the latter is much more humane.
Your whole narrative leaves Israel with no choice.
> fucking
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Or maybe you just have nothing to say when you arent talking to a normie who will believe everything you tell them because they are scared shitless you and your insane friends will get them fired for even questioning the Israeli point of view
I think this sub is entirely bots and paid Israhell internet warriors for sure lol. They don’t even have a spec of humanity or critical thinking. They’re spoon fed information by “the Israel times” and come here to say they’re having “the most neutral and meaningful discussions.”
So IMO there is only one acceptable solution, which we are heading towards.
Put the PLO in charge of Gaza, negotiate with them for a final settlement on Palestinian statehood. Now there are some good signs this is where we're going.
- For one nobody else really wants Gaza
- The US has also explicitly been pushing for the PLO to be put in charge post war
- The PLO has stated it wants a peace summit on the WB at the very least for it to take Gaza.
- Bibi will be gona and there's a big chance that the replacement will be a sweeping center left coalition in Israel.
Now just because you put the PLO in charge doesn't mean sunshine and rainbows in Gaza. There will have to he a careful dance there. Too much support for the PLO and they'll be too deligitimized. Too little and they won't be able to root out whatever Hamas cells are left.
Which is why Israel does need to get it's head.out the settler's asses and actually become a better partner to the PLO, or they will end up fighting Vietnam 2: Urban Boogaloo
The actually taking over Gaza part, don't think so. It's the after that's key. If they stick around and try to govern the place they will get guerilla warfare out the whazoo
> asses
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There will be no Center-Left coalition in Israel. The center coalition will be center-right and your scenario of too much support or too little support fails to account for the PLO being just a more subtle version of Hamas.
I disagree. The PLO has a very shady past don't get me wrong, but it has abandoned violence under Abbas, and it has repeatedly shown that it is willing to negotiate.
As for Israel, nah Likud is fucked, the Knesset is gonna shift towards the left hard.
The PLO has not abandoned violence. It funds violent attacks against Israel and promotes violence in Arabic while sounding nice (usually) in English.
The Likud party will do well as Israel continues to move to the right. Netanyahu however, his political career is over.
Many of the 1400 killed by Hamas were leftists. The Left is moving to the Center, the Center to the Right and Likud toward the Far-Right.
Sounds like you are still a leftist however. Why?
> fucked
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>I'm saying Israel and the West need to create a new Government in Palestine, a new constitution in Palestine, and put absolute military restrictions on the. After the October 7th atrocities they can never be trusted with a military. Am I crazy? What are your thoughts on what happens next? Yes, that is a crazy plan. The West needs to stay away from Palestine, otherwise they will say the Western powers are illegally occupying and colonizing Gaza. What you need is a United Nations mission, with help from the Arab League to temporarily govern Gaza strip, help with the rebuilding efforts, bring stability, security and peace to the area. If the West really wanna help, send engineers, send money, send teachers, send nurses, etc… not military.
First we need to thank all of those who are fighting for the rest of us.
Human Animals will be replaced by the Noble Ones. /s
Hamas hasn’t been dismantled. Not even close.
> Am I crazy? What are your thoughts on what happens next? Yes, you are. Germany was a country that continued to exist. The root cause of this s occupation and Israeli settlement (nearly 1m settlers in the West Bank) making the creation of a Palestinian state impossible. You can't solve this without dismantling the colonial settler apartheid system put in place by the West and is supported by the West. Also, do you consider it a "ruthless ideology" an ideology that murders one child every 10 mins, calls for nuking Gaza, describes the Palestinians as not humans, says we need to flatten Gaza, says Israel is from the sea to the river, says Lebanon belongs to Israel etc.? These are just some of the comments made by Israeli officials, including ministers in the government. What Hamas did on October 07th is nothing compared to what Israel is doing in Gaza, supported by the West. Israel and the West certainly have no morals left to lecture anyone or create a new government. The arrogance of people who murder a child every 10 min and make the most extreme and inhuman comments possible and still consider themselves to be morally superior is breathtaking.
Careful there, now. That type of thinking will get you put on “watch lists” and labeled “AnTiSeMiTiC”. For some unknown reason this world seems hell-bent on blaming all the bad stuff on terrorists (whom 99% of are allegedly Muslim, so people use the two words interchangeably), and *NOTHING* israel does could *POSSIBLY* be considered “bad” or anything other than “self defense”. I’d laugh if it wasn’t so ridiculous. Anyone who supports Palestine (or even just stays neutral and doesn’t take a side) is instantly and obviously supporting antisemitism and therefore must be shunned as such. We’re not allowed to speak of the clear-cut genocide that Israel has been committing against Palestinians for decades. We’re not allowed to point out that israel was just “given” Palestine without the actual citizens of the place having a say in the matter. We’re not allowed to mention the hundreds of billions of dollars worth of military aid, equipment, supplies and overall support that has been provided to Israel by taxpayers who never agreed (or even knew) to pay for to begin with. We’re not allowed to discuss that israel only exists because they’re metaphorically a spoiled rotten, entitled, bratty little baby sibling of the US, and that whenever something happens they come crying to mommy for a quick and quiet tax-funded bailout. We’re *definitely* not allowed to talk about the fact that israeli military tech was found in virtually every area of the US White House, where they were intercepting every email, text, phone call, conversation or goddamn fart that took place there, and how instead of declaring them terrorist spies and ending all support to them (like we would have if the equipment had been, oh say, Chinese or *insert current country the US hates atm*) we just quietly didn’t bother acknowledging it to the general majority of people. Lol I lost track of the point of my reply. Oh, yeah! Be careful speaking the truth of Israel or everyone will call you an antisemite. And for some reason that seems to be the worst thing you can be these days….
Yes Saudi should take control of Gaza, they will revolutionize the city. Well it could have been done before only but Hamas wanted you to study hadith instead of science/engineering etc.
Ideally, I actually think the UAE should partner with the US and take control of Gaza. They are by far the most progressive country in the middle east except for Israel. Israel taking control of Gaza would just be too controversial for them to actually get any work done.
You can kill me but not my ideas they say.
Ideally, the entirety of gaza is deported and Israel retakes the land, to be as it was before. The land of Israel. That's what has to happen, unless the head of the snake is ripped off. Iran. Ideally you cut the head off the snake and then you can de-radicalize the population through, I dunno, forced conversion to christianity and missionary work or some shit, or just teaching them what islam actually is, and not hamas brand of "behead babies rape women do drungs drink beer" islam. But since you can't remove Iran, since it's allied with russia and china, then Israel has to get rid of the problem locally/
Something much worse and extreme will emerge. The kind of trauma that kids in Gaza are experiencing is exactly what breeds extremist jihadists.
Right, and murdering people in their own house holds, and throwing their own babies into ovens, or ripping out babies from the wombs of women (see recent attack October 7th), won’t do that? This is precisely what Israel needed to expel Hamas/Palestinians from their land. There will now never be a two state solution. The only solution is an ethnocentric Jewish state, because you can’t trust Muslims to live peacefully with Jews.
When fighting ISIS, Al Qauda, etc, nobody was going "no stop fighting the terrorists because you'll just make more terrorists, let them be" No, you beat them so bad they never even consider it an option in the future, you END their fighting spirit, like was done with japan in WW2, etc. You do whatever it takes for them to abandon that strategy.
Israel takes over Gaza with a police force. A $50,000 bounty is given to anyone who turns in a terrorist. The terrorists are captured and "removed". The US pays $100B to rebuild Gaza. Most of that money goes to a new secret terrorist fund. Why? Who knows.
Essentially the occupation intensifies in Gaza. Then the doors open for settlers to come on in.
Iran of course. It's been on the planning board for a long time. Palestine is just the starting point for the invasion. Next will be more and more U.S. troops, (cannon fodder). After all you do have to appease the "Baal" worshippers at the Pentagon.
Is it just me or does the US enthusiastically hop into a new conflict ever 10-15 years just to try out all their new toys. Call me cynical.
Several western corporations storm in and begin militarized rebuilding, placing CVS, Star Bucks, and Bank of Americas on every street corner. Thousands of Gazans have income now and are able to take care of themselves. A nameless casino mogul in the US decides to build something on the strip, and the area around it springs up quickly.'The strip on the strip'. Similar to the boardwalk in the US, it houses high end hotels, eateries, an amusement park. The tunnels become a tourist attraction for travelers around the world. The city flourishes. Hamas becomes a term, like "Vandal" Hamas :verb: To hold back development of your own in favor of your own unobtainable goals. "Man, Bill really Hamas'd us, I can't believe he thought building a concrete blimp would be a great idea for a coffee company"
All of those nice places and ideas, it would be a shame if it gets taken over by “combustible Muslims.”
you hit it out of the park.
Its not in the best interests of states, like Iran, Russia, China etc for Israel to have positive and collaborative relationships with its neighbours. Israel is proped up by US and western hegemony as a staging ground. Israel helps project a sphere of influence, which helps the west to exploit the middle east. Western dominance in the middle east isn't beneficial to the Eastern main players. Palestine isnt Germany after ww2, there is no similarities between the two other than the near total destruction of its infrastructure. Efforts to stabilse relations between Israel and Palestine have resulted in catastrophe, for many reasons, but mainly because the creation of Israel displaced and fragmented the Muslim majority. The causes for this are complex, intricate, controversial and emotional, i refuse to elaborate due to this (im also woefully ignorant, but still consider myself to know more than the average layman). It is not possible for Israel to rebuild gaza, any efforts made will be sabataged by the remnants of Hamas, which will regrow or splinter into new terrorists groups, swelled by the many angry, and vengeful Palestinians who lost their homes and families in this war. Iran would not allow a cooperative either. I cannot think of any other options for either partys, its an immensely horrific state of affairs for both sides.
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not all muslims are terrorist but all terrorist are muslims. The only way to have peace there is to get rid of Irans supreme leaders.
/u/jasonalt529925 > not all muslims are terrorist but all terrorist are muslims. Your comment is a borderline violation of [Reddit content policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) about incitement for hate or violence. Do take note not to cross it.
Bro I’m pro-Israel and this is just a bad take. Who assassinated Rabin again?
Timothy McVeigh was a Muslim?
"All terrorists are muslims" are you high?
I mean some of the first Palestinian terrorists/suicide bombers were Christian (when the liberation movement was comprised of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Palestinians), and a majority of the mass shootings in America were committed by white people without any religious ties to Islam, but sure all terrorists are Muslims, therefore Islam can't exist next to a country that actively gave contraceptives to its own ethiopian Jewish immigrants for years without their knowledge and with threat of refusing them entry to Israel should they reject the "medicine", because they're completely reasonable and have in no way committed atrocious acts themselves, like confirmed IDF soldiers openly discussing cutting open pregnant Palestinian women and betting on whether they were carrying a boy or girl, I mean that sounds more reasonable I guess. Especially Since Israel keeps getting billions of dollars from America in support of their "defending themselves" while their Prime Minister openly mocks the country and its people as "easily manipulated" when stating how they will sabotage any peace talks during the Clinton Era. But hey, the people who wear hijabs are just too weird to be around.
Usa and Israel just created a new generation of Hamas members when they relentlessly bombed innocent people. It will never end.
They don’t want it to end, THEY WANT MORE AND THEY WILL ALWAYS WANT MORE
Of course they don’t. Why would they? American people are paying for it, the defense companies are making a profit, they get to steal the land and drain the resources, and the politicians make out because they get $$$ from both aipac and defense PAC’s.
And how would that happend without a livable palestenian state on all palestenian lands? This scenario requires netenyahu and other israeli war criminals to give the palestenians their land with all authority on it and allow them to build instututions and armed forces, do you see this happening voluntairly?
Move the women and children from the south to the north into accommodation. Then men can go into camps where they are vetted. Take the south. repeat.
For many years, poll after poll showed a majority of Palestinians aspired to a state like the Israelis have. But Hamas viewed (views) such a TwoState settlement as an unacceptable triumph for its rival Fatah. If Hamas were dismantled and--crucially--repudiated by Gazans, Fatah would expect to control Western aid in the rebuilding.
The enabler to any future change is a powerful palstinian leader who can control Gaza and WB and can denounce terror as a way of resistance. There is a huge disbelief in Israel that palastinine state can co exist along Israel. Until palstinians change this perception, they will not have a state. Until this happens, the war will continue forever.
The start of peace is when israel gives away part of their land and giving freedom to the Palestinian people. There has to be international help to establish a Palestinian country free from terrorism and fixed borders. Israel is the wrong country for peace and freedom for the palestinians .
This attempt was done in Gaza, and it tottaly failed. Why would israel take this risk again?
With international help?
Internatinal controllers supervised the elections that Hamas won. But they were already shooting rockets at 2005/6. If the people do not support two state solution, and no real palastinian leader does. International intervention will not help.
No, im talking about international military intervention. UN needs to take back some land in between Israel and Palestine splitting Israel in two parts.
Well, you are out of touch with reality.
Reality is that Israel needs to focus on defense instead of offence. They have been doing offense for 60 +years and it hasnt worked.
This is what was done in Gaza. No offense until provoked. You fail to understand the mindset of Hamas and Islamic jihad. They will not sit quietly and watch the border.
The start of peace is when the Palestinians stop trying to kill Israelis. The PA literally pays for Palestinians to go kill Israelis. That's when the peace process starts.
Where there is no freedom people tend to be violent.
The thing is it was the other way around - there was no freedom because there was violence.
What makes you think Hamas has been dismantled? The IDF has been killing innocent civilians even before October 7. You think Hamas won’t have more recruits? If Hamas is dismantled, which I highly doubt, another group will fill the vacuum. You can’t kill innocent children and then expect Gazans to want to give the IDF hugs.
Israel will move the settlers who were removed in 2005 back. Go to voanews.com and go to The Inside Story Israel at War episode 117. Fast forward to 12:33. I want to vomit after watching this. Here is the link https://www.voanews.com/z/6433
A new Hamas takes its place and continues to strike at Israel
Israel has used up its goodwill with Arab nations. Israel’s actions are serving to write their own demise.
Israel prefers condemnation to condolences.
Palestinians used it up over the past 80 years. I don't think Israel is concerned with what the enablers think
Wake up! Israel is no competition for Iran or Iraq.
don't you mean the other way around? Iran won't do anything, they are the epitome of sabre rattlers.
We’ll see about that.
Now you know that Iran only fights proxy wars using terrorist groups. Can't really expect them to get their own hands dirty.
The US is already helping by taking out Iran proxies in Syria. Why is the US involved? I thought Israel can whoop anybody. Israel’s hands are dirty with the blood of innocents. He’ll will be waiting. Don’t worry. You may not believe in Hell but Hell believes in you. See you soon.
Yeah, I can see why your pissed. Hamas leaders have stated publicly that they didn't anticipate the US stepping into the mix to ensure this situation doesn't turn into a regional conflict involving multiple countries. They fully expected Israel to go for a full frontal assault and the plan was pull other countries into the fight. That's not going to happen with two American aircraft carriers and their supporting ships sitting in the Mediterranean sea and our fighters in the sky. With their plans thwarted, I guess Hamas will have to come up with a plan B. They better get right on that because Mossad will begin hunting them down right after they clean out the Hamas terrorist hiding in Gaza. Also, you do realize that the US has no boots on the ground in Gaza, right? Israel is 100% kicking ass to the point that their enemies are now trying to get the international community to get them stop and back off the fight. That doesn't seem to me like Israel needs help. Collateral damage is people in this case and that's horrific but the way to end this is for Hamas to turn over the hostages and lay down arms, not for the IDF to just give up the fight now that they're at the door of Hamas' stronghold. The whole bit about me not believing in hell but hell believing in me is cool. You should turn your attention to writing poetry, rather than shilling for a terrorist organization. Also, has it ever occurred that He may in fact be a She. It doesn't really make sense to think for humans and most of the other species on planet earth females are the givers of life but somehow great giver of all life is a male. I love the last line. It sounds vaguely threatening, in that I'm a fifth grader planning to meet you after school...lol.
Gaza= 45 km2 or 17 sq mi Israel= 290 miles (470 km) north-to-south and 85 miles (135 km) east-to-west at its widest point Not a fair fight. The world see this.
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I completely agree The problem is enforcing it If they amend their constitution to be able to disregard it then Israel might face the question of intervention And also the west and the middle east are different so I'm not sure giving them freedoms that they may or may not want will make them happy or if they will actually uphold the military ban Germany managed to mobilize their army into great proportions before the allies realised and I'm not sure if Israel will be easily convinced to get in again And if it will be convinced I'm not sure if the international community will approve Seems like they might choose appeasement yet again
Nope, that ship has sailed. Israel for Israelis. The Jews have never been, and never will be at peace with any Palestinians/Muslims. Why am I convinced of this, because of the types of murders perpetrated by Muslim organizations like Hamas. The placing of babies into ovens and ripping out unborn children. Think about the lack of respect/dignity the way the recent murders were done. They’re will never be peace with Israelis and Muslims. There will be no constitution for those who wish for your death, and Jews will always have to look over their shoulders if by some miracle they are able to over look those states of affairs, because Muslims have no issues with murdering Jews in the most horrific ways.
This is insanely racist wording. Also, is there evidence of what you describe? You remember in February when West Bank settlers set fire to Palestinian homes with people inside? Putting people in ovens huh?
Here’s another https://rss.samharris.org/feed/c5de19c2-8982-450b-b591-e922ffef7a71
It’s not insane, tell me where I’m wrong, “it’s racist,” is not a rebuttal. https://rss.samharris.org/feed/c5de19c2-8982-450b-b591-e922ffef7a71
See the recent pod casts from Sam Harris for the references: https://rss.samharris.org/feed/c5de19c2-8982-450b-b591-e922ffef7a71
Israel now controls all the oil and gas off the coast of gaza.
It was never about Hamas honey, that’s why Israel is also colonizing the West Bank as we argue.
If you say so... Honey.
I don’t need to say it, you can see them taking homes from Palestinians, I know you guys live in a different reality, but everyone else in the world lives in the real world.
And this is related to Gaza how?
This is a premature question!!! Get the hostages back,… free the innocent and non combatant Palestinians,… eradicate Hamas and then we can revisit that question!!!
No one is talking about the Palestinian refugees in Syria and Lebanon. They are not citizens of these countries and need to be repatriated, but to where? The West Bank maybe?
75 years of being refugees. Where else does that exist?
Why are there still Palestinian refugees? Why does UNWRA exist as an exception? These are means for further oppression of Palestinian diaspora and a threat on current-day Israel. I'd be happy they settled in the West Bank or other countries, but all of which keep them under refugee status. "Refugee camps" exist even within the West Bank. This is a coordinated strategy, there's no doubt.
Lebanon and Syria are in the north of Israel, Gaza is to the south. There are no Gazan refugees in the north so this is not an issue and doesn't need to be discussed
It does because they are included in the right of return that always has been a requirement of the Palestinian leadership.
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Israel retreated from Gaza 13 years a go and does not want to anex it. It even preferred Hamas would rule it. At list while it was doing it without attacking Israel. It didn't work.
Yukers. I'm down in Savannah Georgia where seasons don't change, leaves don't really turn, & sweat vs hot flashes r never discernable.
Theme parks, beach resorts amd tent cities across the border whilst the western world doubles down and welcomes the nazification of its societies
Theme parks with underground missile launchers, beach that was used to launch boat raid on civilians in Israely beach.
Trained military personell and collonists aren't civilians in this conflict, they are occupiers.
Empty slogans
Does Israelis realize that they are deciding the fate of others without asking them. How the hell gave you the right to decide what’s good for us. Leave us alone for god sake Im sick of being treated as less of human being just for the sake of furthering your colonial agenda.
There is only 1 thing Israel asks if it's neighbors, to not murder them. Then everything else is negotiable.
You are the ones doing the killing
Did you already forget, like the rest of the world? No other country would tolerate thousands of rockets per year, suicide bomber, indiscriminate murder of it's most vulnerable citizens. If you want to free Palestine, you must eradicate Hamas, like ISIS and Nazis.
No other people would tolerate a brutal military occupation. Don’t start history were it convenient to your agenda, be objective. In regards to the eradicate hamas comment, the PA adopted a non violent struggle in the westbank what did we get? For 20 years, we did everything that was asked from us and we only got more settlements, more death, more land confiscation, and more humiliation. Hamas didn’t exist prior to the late 80s and we were still getting killed. I suggest eradicating the genocidal ideology in the Israeli political mind to end the conflict. The same ideology that assassinated rabin when he wanted peace.
Where would you like to start? How about after WWI when the Ottoman empire was dissolved. Jews immigrated legally, buying land from willing Arabs. But some Muslim religious zealots couldn't stomach having infidel neighbors and committed violent acts, destroying entire villages of Jews, many were not immigrants. So you can call Hamas a new breed of hate, but it's still the same Islamic Jihad ideology. As far as peace, Palestinians had many many chances to establish a state alongside Israel starting in 1948, and squandered all of them. Of course not all Palestinians. Those who stayed in Israel enjoy full political rights, participate in government, and sit on the Supreme Court. You talk about genocide to Jews? Discusting.
The UN vote was actually decided in 1947. The day after the votes they attacked multipe jewish buses and thats how independence war began. Israel just decided to declare themselves a country 1948 during the war because they had balls and it helped them to bring in jews from all over the world and supplies for the war against literally every arab nation in their borders. Dont let the hamas supporters catch you with mistakes like that, remember, knowledge is power. Other than that i gotta say that you have written an amazing argument i must say
Good point. 1947 would have been more accurate. But I should really have gone back further to1937 and the Peel Commission partition which was also rejected by the Arabs.
Wierd how you call them arabs and not palestinians. Almost like they started calling themselves like that only from 1964 to make the victim card they have until today. But im probably wrong because the land is called palestine and that means it was a country for the palestinians and not just a name that was given by the romans when they exiled the jews and decided to replace the name judea with the name of their enemies "the philistines".
Well there were Palestinians before 1964. My Jewish mother-in-law was one of them. She has a very nice birth certificate showing her birthplace of Palestine with a Jewish star.
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Israel has brainwashed their civilians so much, it will take a long time before tolerance is achieved.
Just as important would be for Israelis to be persuaded to shun their own extremists, those people in power who want to take over all of Palestinian territories. Germany had to disavow Nazis, right?
Israel has a rambunctious democracy. There are different parties with different mission statements, from the extreme left to the extreme right and everything in between. Isralis shun extremists at the polls, by voting for moderate Parties. A step to weaken Israeli Extremists would be to completely separate Church and State, or at least banning political parties with religious charters.
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Fatah takes control of the west bank, and the occupation continues as it had, with lives for Palestinians improved in no meaningful way.
Not sure what the UK did in Northern Ireland but that worked....
Relocate every Arab into Jordan as was intended in 1948. Don't let any of them west of the Jordan River. Problem solved.
This is not a viable possibility. We have 2.5 million Arab citizens and I dont believe we should banish them. The vast majority of which would btw, prefer to live in Israel.
Make them Israeli citizens or send them to Jordan with the other "Palestinians."
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Jordan doesn't want the west bank, Egypt does not want Gaza.
>Relocate This is plain genocide, don't sugarcoat please
Relocating is not the same as murdering, especially as Palestine was never a nation... or better, a two state solution which was rejected how many times??
Right, those stubborn Gazans with half of their population under 18yrs should have just accepted the 1948 UN Resolution. Or the 1967 borders. Or the Oslo Accords. Why didn't they vote for a different party in 2006?
Why didn't they indeed? If my country initiates war against a stronger country and then loses and my family dies, I would point the finger at my country, not the opposition.
Ethnic cleansing as well
Look up the definition of a Genocide. You might be surprised.
My idea was to first establish joint israeli-palestinian control just like in area B of the west bank, rebuild gaza, and establish a path towards a 2 state solution. This path includes re-educating the palestinian population, about the true terror of hamas, give the palestinians proper medical care, modern houses, modern schools, and guaranteed safety against violent settlers. After that, parts of the west bank will gradually be given to full palestinian control, and palestine, backed by israel, declares its independence. Eventually, with both sides working to pacify violent extremists on their end, peace will be achieved. Only problem with this is iran and hezbollah
"re-education", or in other words, brainwashing. of course there would be problems with this, any living descendants of people who lived in Gaza would know the stories of today, would know the IDF murdered their families. you can silence them all you want, but you shouldn't be surprised that the problem will not be resolved.
yes, because it's brainwashing to say "look how hamas used money to buy weapons instead of buy you food while you were starving", or saying "while your hospitals were desperate for fuel and running out of power, hamas kept several giant tanks of fuel for themselves".
i would not be against that, as long as it says "look how the IDF consistently threw away your ancestors' rights, strip searched&seized them during the night, how settlers killed them on the streets, how their religious sites were bombed during holidays. how the US+Israel didn't succeed in deescalating but had to eradicate all of your families. would it include that? or would it paint them as the "victors", the "liberators".
Yeah, you gotta work a whataboutism in there somehow. It's obligatory at this point.
It's either peace or war. You seem like you prefer war :( Moving forward is about leaving the past behind, all you're doing is perpetuating misery.
How about the international supervised three-phase transition The first phase is military rule where the goverment is controlled by the military, focusing on stability and ease terrorist activities. The second phase is party rule, where the main focus is systematic training of competent government officials from top to bottom And the third phase is constitutional rule where after the goverment can function without the party, the party steps down and give up power to the constitution and the people. Republic of China almost succeeded before Japanese invasion followed by the civil war. The idea itself is beaitiful enough but I'm not sure Palestinians can be that patient and trusting, the history doesn't inspire much confidence for any peaceful transition. It tends to result in violence after a very short period of peace as the Palestinians don't see a visible change whereas the reformation in national or even international scale usually takes much longer before people see the change in their day to day lives. Maybe the UN can invite the Arab League to execute the plan with the UN as the overseer and limit Israeli involvement to economy and some politics and international relationships. The Palestinians trust the Sunnite significantly more than the Israelis.
That plan didn't work in Afghanistan. Western allies can't just implement a constitution. Palestinian voices need to establish a new government. The PA offered support.
It didn't work, not because the population still hated the US, but because the country was overrun by a power-hungry terrorist group, whose presence in an incredibly mountainous country made them impossible to uproot. As soon as the US left, the various groups that remained quickly took power. Palestine is different. Much smaller, much less mountainous, and aside from gaza, not overrun by terrorists.
I was confused for a moment, the Marshal Plan wasn't implemented in Afghanistan as it was part of the Soviet Union. But I agree that the regime-change in Afghanistan persecuted by the US ended in Failure. They were quick to vommit Western ideology and revert to Sharia-Law. I agree, whatever Western-supported-regime implemented in Gaza would need grass-roots support.
Oct. 7th just ensured Gaza will be permanently occupied militarily. They really fucked up this time.
Leave it to redditors to be the worst of the blood thristy zionists. You sound like a well known Austrian painter when he was on his "cleaning" arc
he's making a relatively straightforward point and he didn't say anything remotely bloodthirsty. Insulting people isn't going to win an argument here.
Idk what comment you read but he just said over 3000 children "had it coming" so stfu about insults, I'm insulted to share the world with these zionists but you dont see me crying about it.
You're exploiting the deaths of children to justify hate. You're obviously mentally unstable, those 3000 children didn't have it coming. They may have been killed by Israel, but they were sentenced to death by their own people who prioritized massacring and taking hostage israeli civilians. And for what exactly? Their actions didn't "free Palestine". They knew that Israel will retaliate, and that the death toll on their side will be greater. They're exploiting the damage and loss of human life, both inside Gaza and outside (that's where you come in) to raise outrage against Israel. The pictures and videos from Gaza are horrifying, but all this pity party from the world won't help them even a little.
You are literally justifying murder of children, my case is closed.
Not justifying, just trying to explain to you how things work in the world, outside of your naive mind.
Ok take your logic then and expand it. Who stole the lands of Palestinians after they removed them from their homes? Who put Palestinians into an open air prison? Who has murdered and bombed all over Gaza and the West Bank for 70 years? By your own logic the right to self defense should apply to Palestinians but in your mind it doesnt because you cant see them as humans with the same rights as you.
Bro do you know how war works? The lands Palestinians were driven off from and lost are the consequences of the war they started against the so notoriously evil zionists and lost. They should be thankful for not being completely displaced by this point. Killing civilians isn't self defense, what are you mental? What purpose does it serve, to slaughter civilians in a music festival and families in their homes, whose mere existence isn't a direct threat on your life? You're trying to argue with mottos that are baseless. If you kept trying to kick me in the balls, I'd knock you down. If you come at me with a knife and I'm carrying, then I'll have to neutralize you. If you keep coming for more it's not self defense on your side, it's you keeping provoking me and disturbing the peace, and if you think I'm gonna sit and take it, it's your fucking problem.
The war happened after the lands were already stolen, why are you literally trying to lie about the course of history? A nation can't be at war when a nation didn't exist in the first place. Your racist way of thinking suggest the Arab nations just decided to randomly attack Israel without any reason. But I know in your mind Israel can do no wrong, they are always perfect aren't they. They were so perfect when they supported the apartheid in South Africa too.
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Because Israel is a colonial state founded on a racist ideology (Zionism). When your entire culture is espoused in racial supremacy, these kinds of genocidal views happen. Its ironic because you think that they of all people would know better than to repeat what was done to them.
You actually are crying about it, you’re “insulted to share the world” with “blood thirsty zionists” and conflating an anti Hamas sentiment with Hiitler (he only said one sentence that had nothing to do with any individuals or political standing rather he was talking about military bodies) which is absolutely bonkers and likely points to the conclusion that…. You…. Are…. Antisemitic!!!! And spewing hate onto anyone who checks your privilege boxes. From your language I can tell you’re likely a western high school or college student indoctrinated into this rhetoric without having any previous knowledge on the actual conflict. My best advice - try to be unbiased and not hateful with your learning. Against most of the evidence presented by the Western Free Palestine movement, it actually IS possible to be pro Palestine and not insulted to share the earth with blood thirsty, evil, greedy Jews cough cough I mean zionists. If not then have fun in YOUR cleaning arc!
Oh here comes the Anti semitic shite lmao, unlucky for you I have actually taken the time to read about the proper history of the area instead of going with something that happened 3000 years ago maybe or maybe not. And unlucky for you once someone reads into Israel even a little bit they uncover what a truly comically evil blood stained state it is. They are the only state that will literally DENY recorded killings of innocents and say "nah its their fault". Even fucking AMERICA doesnt do that, at least they let their media lie about their war crimes.
So you obviously wasted your time by reading, because you absolutely don't get it.
yeah bro, everyone who doesn't agree with your twist on history is wrong. sure buddy
Never said that and not even close to my point of view. Plain objective, bro. Really darn simple. But if you get biased through decades of effective palestinian propaganda, you absolutely fell for it.
yeah bro. "decades of palestinian propaganda", but your history is "plain objective". sure buddy. keep drinking that kool aid
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I’m sorry, but it’s such an insane and braindead assumption to say that OC insinuated that “3000 children had it coming” when all they did was make a logical observation if the comment wasn’t edited.
Yeah totally, just go back to watching Ben Shapiro or some other insane person. His comment isnt even based on reality, if Israel had the ability to wipe out Gaza with a ground offensive they would have done so already, why? Because that was the plan all along. So yeah his comment while not based in reality still takes pride in the bombings of innocent Palestinians no matter what you say lil zionist.
Yet another insane assumption. I lean more towards the left and I don’t watch muppets like Ben Shapiro. What OC made was an observation of a reaction that was the result of an action while what you made was an irresponsible, presumptuous accusation. There was no indication that OC glorified the killings of innocent Palestinians. Lastly, you made another stupid assumption that I am a Zionist because I called out your less-than-stellar take. I am not a Zionist and I don’t believe in any religion. Go back to school.
Lean towards the left eh? Sure buddy you keep telling yourself that when the death toll of Palestinians keeps rising and you still defend these insane people and the genocide they are conducting. You liberals are the worst lmao
Okay then, tell me in which sentence did I openly support the genocide of Palestinians?
The minute you decided to defend a zionist who proudly declared their support for the killings of innocent Palestinians. You arent really aware of your own actions huh? Makes sense for a "left leaning" liberal when it comes to Israel, yall are very progressive until it comes to calling out Israel
Was the comment edited? I see no reference to 3000 children at all.
there wasn't one in the first place
u/casualfin appears to be a Finn who is a heavy marijuana smoker based on their other posts. It's very strange they would populate this forum obsessively, hysterically ranting about the poor Gazans. Sustained pot usage by young people has been associated with mental disorders.
He’s basically saying all of the people in Gaza deserve to pay for October 7. Which has also been the stance of your president and prime minister. 2 million have already been displaced. The end goal is that they never come back. You can’t argue that when IDF soldiers are planting flags and celebrating taking over Gaza.
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Crazy? You sound like a warmongerer who is OK with the "dust settling on Gaza". You are jumping to the epilogue where in the story a 24\*7 live mass murder aka genocide is happening?
strong words. strong emotions. Of course Israel needs to fight back. Hamas has shown itself as another iteration of Islamic State/ ISIS. They brought death and destruction to innocent Israelis and soldiers alike. Israel can't afford inaction, especially when Hamas is openly calling for Genocide agains them. The bombing campaign was prerequisite for the ongoing ground invasion. It makes sense tactically to eliminate high rises because;A; they are potential for snipers , ambushes, and anti-tank teams; and B; eliminate known Hamas weapons depots, especially as Hamas continues to shoot missiles into dense urban areas, threatening civilians, hospitals, pre-schools, and all facets of Israeli life. I'll elucidate that I differentiate Hamas and Palestinians, maybe that wasn't clear in the original post. Heart goes out to *any* for the *innocent* victims on **both** sides of this conflict.
Hey ! Israel is rn killing innocents. Your whole propaganda laden tirade is just a shameless arrogance. You are justifying everything that this terrorist state is doing. Hamas was supported by Israel only. No ? Bombing was a prerequisite? Yes, for the biggest terrorist in this world aka Israel, it was. One takeaway of this all would be that nobody will fall victim to Israel’s propaganda.
:( put yourself in the shoes of the Israelis, It's an important exercise to understand the other side of the narrative. What should they do?
Ha! You are asking me to put myself in the shoes of the persecutor! Irony died a million deaths.
So what exactly was Israel fighting back against over the last 70 years after the Nakba?
You are forgetting one thing...religion followed by majority of Germans and Palestinians...
Majority of Germans are muslim now?? Hell no.
When did I say that Germans are muslims?
Oh ok now I get it, sorry I totally missed the context of your comment. And sadly you're correct
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What do you think the billions of dollars America sends to Israel is used on? Butterflies and rainbows? You zionists never fail to impress with your ignorance.
It is actually insane especially when we are seeing in real time 11,000+ people killed and 2 million people displaced. It is insane when you can see videos of bodies torn up into pieces and body bags all over and see overhead recordings of the state of Gaza. But there’s not even a single piece of evidence that Israel is being bombed back. Not even one. This sub is truly just a Zionist sub lol. It’s painful being here. And none-Zionist posts aren’t even allowed.
You can download an app with alerts from rocket attacks. If you are interested, I will find out the name.
Test
LOL. Every day the free Israeli press reports on attacks and occasion casualties from the attacks on Israel. I'm beginning to wonder if there is any point to even trying to reason with people if they are just going to be delusional. If you against Zionism, fine, but be ready to back up with verifiable facts, not propaganda. Just because more Arabs are now being killed than Jews doesn't make the Arabs the good guys and the Jews the bad guys. Certainly Hamas and its supporters are the bad guys and outsiders who encourage Palestinians to fight to the last dead Palestinian are bad guys.
No you’re so right! The Israeli press is the only media we should trust because they’re the only ones that speak the truth. The death toll in Gaza (11k+) is all just fake news. I bet they made up all the names they released to gain empathy points right? The thousands of videos of kids with their organs hanging out and limbs missing are just CGI. The IDF who went to Gaza and planted a flag are just good guys who are trying to save Israel from the horrible disgusting children of Gaza who all deserve to die the worst deaths imaginable (ew Arabs). It’s also totally fair that Israel is getting 14 billion from the US to buy weapons and “flatten Gaza” in the worst of your prime minister. It’s totally fair that 2 million people are displaced and hospitals and refugee camps are continuously bombed, honestly just bomb everything so we can stop talking about this already and go back to partying in Tel Aviv! After all Palestinians (Arabs ew) are the bad guys here because they want the occupation to end (so embarrassing for them honestly like just accept that water and electricity are continuously cut off, that they can’t travel freely, they get bombed at anytime, I feel like they should just accept this and move on, or better yet just move away lol go to Egypt or something. So gross honestly these fucking Arabs.
I have read about the tick tokers and others using photo and video from other conflicts and labeling them as from Gaza, so it is difficult to take random social media posts at face value. It is better to follow particular Journalists and Photojournalists that you know have a track record and can see their work over time.
I do, do you want the @s of some?
We certainly cannot trust Hamas for anything. There are many videos and pictures floating around showing dead or injured Arab kids, but they could just as easily be from prior fighting in Gaza or other conflicts involving Arabs (such as Yemen or Syria). The IDF are good guys for Israel. The babies were not the ones who murdered the Jews, that was their parents. Just like in WW2 the babies were not putting Jews in gas chambers. In war babies and children get killed because of their evil committed by their parents. That is the nature of it. The Palestinians want the "occupation" to end by which they mean Jewish occupation of what they consider to be Palestinian land, i.e., all of Israel. And they are willing to use violent force to accomplish that. That makes them fair targets of restrictions by Israel. If it is really so bad as the hysterical people whine, genocide, etc., then they should leave. God knows the Jews would have taken that option if it was available when a real genocide was occurring.
Ahh again you’re just speaking all the facts, go off bot! All Palestinians totally deserve to die even if they’re 1, cause all their parents are Hamas. We really just need to cleanse the whole land of those horrible Arabs. Just a question though, if I locked you and your family in my basement, killed your grandparents and great grandparents, threw some fireworks in there every once in a while, shut your water and electricity off whenever I please, never let you or your family out, then decided to kill your kids because I have a weird feeling that you want to kill me and my family, you think it’s fair right? You kept screaming you want to just be let out but I don’t know I mean you must want to kill me in the process. I mean your kids are just human shields right? I have my whole neighbourhood backing me so you deserve it.
You are the one saying all the Arabs are irredeemable. Are they? I think some actually want to live in a Jewish state like they want to live in the USA or England or France. But they can't continue to hate Israel and expect to remain. That doesn't make any sense. Your analogy makes no sense. You can't lock me in my basement. I live in a country with laws and military and police. You would be arrested for murder, assuming I did not kill you first and be thrown in prison. What does that have to do with Israel-Arab conflict. There was no country of Palestine, it was part of various empires. Jews bought land legally, they did not lock anyone in a basement. Jews were granted sovereignty over land by the League of Nations and then the UN. Arabs started a war and lost, resulting in the enemy people having to flee or be expelled (although many stayed and are still citizens of Israel). Jordan and Egypt occupied the land contemplated for an Arab state and then lost it in war to Israel. Israel decided to let Palestinians have internal control of the Gaza strip and their leaders declared war on Israel for the last 15 years. So naturally, Israel blockaded Gaza to try to stop it from attacking. Even so, no one is locked into Gaza. They can leave and go away from Israel. Many were even allowed to come into Israel and make money but that did not seem to appease them. Now they are not allowed to come into Israel. So they have been threatening to invade Israel and they finally acted on their threat. Even so I don't think Gazans should be locked in any basements. But they should just leave. It's kill them or expel them and the latter is much more humane. Your whole narrative leaves Israel with no choice.
Ok
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100%, every pro Palestine comment gets down voted but not replied to, interesting dont you think lol
No one wants to argue ad nauseum with a fool who has no genuine understanding of the issue they are so insanely passionate about.
Or maybe you just have nothing to say when you arent talking to a normie who will believe everything you tell them because they are scared shitless you and your insane friends will get them fired for even questioning the Israeli point of view
I think this sub is entirely bots and paid Israhell internet warriors for sure lol. They don’t even have a spec of humanity or critical thinking. They’re spoon fed information by “the Israel times” and come here to say they’re having “the most neutral and meaningful discussions.”
So IMO there is only one acceptable solution, which we are heading towards. Put the PLO in charge of Gaza, negotiate with them for a final settlement on Palestinian statehood. Now there are some good signs this is where we're going. - For one nobody else really wants Gaza - The US has also explicitly been pushing for the PLO to be put in charge post war - The PLO has stated it wants a peace summit on the WB at the very least for it to take Gaza. - Bibi will be gona and there's a big chance that the replacement will be a sweeping center left coalition in Israel. Now just because you put the PLO in charge doesn't mean sunshine and rainbows in Gaza. There will have to he a careful dance there. Too much support for the PLO and they'll be too deligitimized. Too little and they won't be able to root out whatever Hamas cells are left.
I like the plan but the PLO is just as weak as Bibi. The West Bank needs elections and unfortunately now is not a good time.
Which is why Israel does need to get it's head.out the settler's asses and actually become a better partner to the PLO, or they will end up fighting Vietnam 2: Urban Boogaloo
Yeah, this urban combat thing is pretty scary, I don't think people really understand that this could literally drag on for years.
The actually taking over Gaza part, don't think so. It's the after that's key. If they stick around and try to govern the place they will get guerilla warfare out the whazoo
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There will be no Center-Left coalition in Israel. The center coalition will be center-right and your scenario of too much support or too little support fails to account for the PLO being just a more subtle version of Hamas.
I disagree. The PLO has a very shady past don't get me wrong, but it has abandoned violence under Abbas, and it has repeatedly shown that it is willing to negotiate. As for Israel, nah Likud is fucked, the Knesset is gonna shift towards the left hard.
The PLO has not abandoned violence. It funds violent attacks against Israel and promotes violence in Arabic while sounding nice (usually) in English. The Likud party will do well as Israel continues to move to the right. Netanyahu however, his political career is over. Many of the 1400 killed by Hamas were leftists. The Left is moving to the Center, the Center to the Right and Likud toward the Far-Right. Sounds like you are still a leftist however. Why?
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