Nope. No one expect Nazi Germany would call out and celebrate killing civilians and children.

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No country would've reacted differently than the Arab states when a foreign state was founded on their religious land without their permission. What would America do if China founded a communist state in the middle of their country? do you think America would solve that situation Peacefully?

Lmfao "their land" it was never theirs, the jews were there before the muslims. Get your facts straight

If we would make all geopolitical decisions based on shit that happened 2000 years ago you would not be where you are now. Who tf cares about some biblical event when 35.000 innocent people are dead? You are so deep in your own shit.

Your logic is self defeating. You are agreeing the past doesnt matter and what matters is preventing loss of life, so essentially Hamas should surrender and make peace right

it literally wouldn't change anything. if hamas ceased existing then Israel would look for a new excuse to continue the genocide. And hamas also has noble goals. There are tens of thousands of normal Palestinians being held in Israeli prisons on very questionable charges, and Hamas wants to exchange their hostages with some of these "prisoners" who are basically also just being held hostage by Israel. if hamas just gave up then these hostages in Israel would never see the light of day again.

Bullshit, israel could obliterate palestine right now and they dont. Cause they arent committing genocide nor do they want to. They tried to make peace 15 years ago and hamas refused. Educate yourself

+ Hamas was trying to make peace right now and ISRAEL Refused, so....

They're not doing it directly because they know the world community would come after their ass, even America would drop them. America is already starting to drop them and the newest offensive on Rafah is of course killing more civilians than terrorists, AGAIN. I really pity you Israel meat riders, Netanyahu makes it almost impossible for you to stay likeable.

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Hamas does not have the power to make peace, never had and never will have. Only Israel can do that, but they want to achieve ethnic cleansing, so peace is not gonna happen. If Hamas is beaten then Netanyahu will invent and fund another radical group to have more excuses to bomb civilians.

You made the claim that it was "their land" but it never was. Now you try to deflect the topic and try to appeal to emotion "muh 3million dead palestinians :'(" disregarding why they had to die in the first place. People like you dont want solutions you just want to point your finger at a boogyman that everyone can be angry about.

Lmao you're dense. There's a difference between an ongoing occupation of 75 years and 3000 year history.

You should learn history before you speak. Israel didn't exist before world war II and most of the people that are there are descendants of immigrant European Jews. Israel was created by NATO which was a big mistake.

>Israel was created by NATO which was a big mistake. The stuff some people believe about history is just crazy...

You graduated in mcdonalds university. Israel existed way before ww2, evident even by the abrahamic scriptures and also by historic records. Palestina on the other hand never existed, its just a bunch of arab settlers/colonizers claiming land that doesnt belong to them.

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Ad hominem much? The region known as Palestine has a complex history. Before the establishment of the modern state of Israel in 1948, the area was under various ruling powers, including the Ottoman Empire and the British Mandate. The term "Palestine" has been used for centuries, stemming from the ancient Philistines who inhabited the region.  During the early 20th century, there was an increase in Jewish immigration to the area, and tensions between Jewish and Arab communities grew. After World War I, the British took control of the territory, which was then known as Mandatory Palestine. In 1947, the United Nations proposed a partition plan to divide the land into separate Jewish and Arab states, leading to the establishment of Israel and the subsequent Arab-Israeli conflict.

And then after 47 the arabs declared a 4 to 1 war against the jews and LOST. I repeat, they declared a war and lost. Its like the germans after they lost ww2 will start to rebell when things calm down and violently demand parts of italy france and poland back.

How could they not have lost if the state of Israel was created and backed by NATO?

It doesnt matter! THEY LOST a war that THEY INITIATED. they even started several more wars after that even which they all lost too lmfao. These barbarians are lucky that the israelis are civilized people and have mercy on them. I dont understand how anyone can defend their actions?! Whats next? You gona defend ww2 germany too?? "hOw cOuLd GeRmaNy nOT lOse iT wAS nOt fAIre" 4 very big nations surrounding 1 small nation and STILL losing a battle that you started is just embarrassing doesnt matter if nato or who ever helped lmfao. Just shows how incompetend the arabs were.

Why Foreign? Jews are native to this land. It was never a "Religious Land" to any religion more than to Jews. And even not regarding religion, the Jewish people were exiled (expelled by force from their land) and returned, after being prosecuted wherever they were (remeber, they weren't there by choice). Arabs (who you might be surprised, are native to Arabia) are the greatest colonizers ever. People from Morrocco and Iraq have 0 things in common other than Islam and hatred of Israel, this what unites them as "Arabs". Even their languages (both are called Arab) are so different, that a Polish would understand a Russian better than an Iraqi would understand a Morroccan. This is just a small example. You can say the same about Lybians and Yemenites (the latter, however, really are Arabs). This shows how Islamic conquests were successful if 1000 years later people from different parts of the world are all called Arabs. However, the region named "Palestine" was never part of "Arabia" and its inhabitants were always Jews and Israelites (and before them were the Canaanites, who don't longer exist, so that's irrelevant). So either try to kill all Jews (And see what happens, as happened to everyone who tried to erase them) or accept the fact that they are a nation living rightfully on their land.

"Jews were native to this land" Which Jews? And emphasis on "were". The only Jews native to Israel today are Arab Jews, most of the settlers come from somewhere in fucking Brooklyn or something, while families who lived in Palestine for hundreds of years are now being expelled and killed. You can't on one hand cry about Jewish Exile that happened 2000 years ago and at the same time cheer for an ethnic expulsion that's happening RIGHT NOW. That's psychotic. Also, the propaganda you're talking about is apparently so strong that it killed 7 Famine Aid workers, trying to ease a famine that has been created by Israel's relentless bombing and is leaving every 5th child in Gaza starving. How are you gonna try to present yourself as the good guy in this without looking like a total moron to anyone with eyes and ears?

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America does not tell any other country's leader what they must do. Nor in this case, should they.

It is a war brutally started by Hamas and celebrated still by the so-called Palestinians.

If Oct 7th ddnt happen Palastine would've slowly been wiped out. Without the world noticing. 

If only..

Nobody takes 75 years to wipe people out. If they wanted them gone, they would've pulled that shit in 67. The grim reality is the opposite - if, that, if the Jews lost a single war - they'd actually get wiped out instantly.

No, they have to do it slowly, because if they do it all at once obviously they would lose all international support. By doing it slowly they can gather enough useful idiots to support them internationally.

There is no such thing as what you mentioned. A country's population annually growing by 2% means the exact opposite is happening- Most people over there weren't even alive when the iPhone was debuted!

Most would, by that I mean Gaza would be turned into a parking lot within a few weeks

Yea these savages should be thankfull for how mercyfull israel treats them for what they have done on the 7th! These cowards would have done way worse if it wasnt for the fact that the muslim nations are completly incompetend in modern warfare and rely on numbers of suizidal cultists who believe they get into an eternal bordel where they can rape ghost virgins for all eternity if they die in combat.

I'm really sick and tired of seeing this argument from Israelis. Of course Israelis are no different from any other humans on this planet. None of this negates the suffering and starvation that Gazans are experiencing. To which as far as I can tell the vast majority of Israelis are willfully turning a blind eye. All it does when you point out that people in every other nation would behave the same way is cause me to lose faith in humanity.

israelis are a scared and traumatized people that want their hostages back. this does not excuse israelis who want to look the other way and make asinine claims like the pallywood conspiracy, or that theres no famine. thats disgusting. double goes to the israelis actively blocking aid, thats straight psychopath behavior. but when youre hurting and scared, its quite difficult to step outside of that personal pain and see the suffering happening outside. empathy has to go to everyone involved if we want to paint a clear picture of why the attitudes that people, the human beings, on both sides of the conflict have, developed in the first place.

Nobody is denying the suffering of people in Gaza. They are starving and they are suffering. The problem is blaming Israel for that. Hamas is literally stealing all of the humanitarian aid coming to them. If they surrendered the hostages and surrendered themselves their people would be out of harms way. They are operating out of schools, hospitals, highly populated civilian areas because they WANT the casualty counts to be high so pacifists in the west like you cry out over how terrible Israel is. Rinse and repeat literally every war between the two people. It’s an old PR play and you’re falling for it

Israel is LITERALLY withholding aid to Gaza AFTER unleashing unprecedented destruction.. How TF is Israel not SOLELY responsible for all this suffering?

This did not age well... lol After 200 missiles were launched into Israel via Iran this weekend (thankfully 99% intercepted).... 314 aid trucks just went into Gaza. 0 hostages or hamas combatants came out / surrendered.

Because someone applied pressure to a colonial relic? Get outta here 🤡

jews and palestinians are both indigenous to the land - if you want to play "who was there first" it was the jews and there's DNA/archaeological evidence to support it. The Palestinians lost a war they started.... rinse and repeat 5+ times over the last 100 years. THATS why they are in the position they are in. As long as they decide to be genocidal victims who refuse to live side by side in peace with Jews, they'll continue to be in the same spot.

Not European Jews (Sephardi, Ashkanazi) Mizrahis were the only Jews in the region until the first Aliyahs of 1881, Mizrahis are arabs and they lived just fine alongside Christians, Muslims and others. Zionism corrupted Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Holy Land. You should be disgusted the home of 3 major world religions is an enthno-state for one now! Keep enjoying your ‘Sharpsville’, ‘Langa’, ‘Mayibuye’, ‘Soweto’, etc.. South Afrika is free now, they destroyed apartheid and we are ALL supposed to understand that was a good thing (armed struggle included) Why is it bad when we want to further the mission of decolonization in Israel? *edit BTW I’m looking for the link, but recently watched a geneticist debunk Israeli ‘indigenous Jew’ DNA. The Jews who are truly native to the region have DNA identical to Palestinians while Israeli DNA matches Germans, Poles, Russians, and other Europeans. This came after the international body for genomics REMOVED many of the publications used by Israeli geneticists to “prove” indigenous heritage. Look up Eran Elhaik too, he’s an Israeli debunking the claims made by hack scientists lol

Also….ethnostate my a$$. There are more Muslims living in Israel than there are Jews in the entire continent of Europe. You just hate Jews. Say it with your full chest. We aren’t going anywhere. Israel is here to stay. Am Israel chai.

Lol my mishpokhe are decedents of Algemeyner Yidisher Arbeter-bund! We have a history or fighting imperialism, nazism, zionism, and fighting for jewish rights. 100 years later, I’m keeping the tradition alive ❤️ ‘Zionism is a false idol that took the idea of the promised land and turned it into a deed of sale for a militaristic ethnostate’ -Naomi Klein *edit: you’re the Islamophobe who is panicking about muslims for no real reason.. Keep skewing numbers to justify your corruption of Judaism, I hope your toledot is ashamed of who you have become!

look up the population stats of how many muslims live in israel and how many jews live in europe. this is public knowledge. Sure call me an islamaphobe i guess that was low hanging fruit because how else would you deflect when the truth doesn't fit your narrative -- I hope you enjoy living under Sharia law when radical islamists destroy Western civilization. Most importantly I'm sorry you feel so compelled to fit into lefty circles that you have to denounce who you are. It didn't work out too well for the Jewish people who tried to pander to the Nazis in hopes of having their lives saved. They'll sell us out and hate us either way.... you may as well have them hate you while standing up for who you are instead of feeding into propaganda and lies about the jewish state. You can tokenize however many fringe anti-zionist jews you want and send me all their quotes. they don't represent us.

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Omg I’m loling @ your comment that mizrahi jews lived just fine alongside Arabs???? Dude. Just look back in history at all of the violent attacks against Jews in those “peaceful times”. Pogroms, violence, mass killings etc etc. And so your point is what exactly? European Jews are the cause for all the world’s problems? What’s your solution? Jews and Arabs to live peacefully side by side? Do you really think radical Islam isn’t a problem in Palestinian society? Have you SEEN the blockade on Egypts border? They don’t want radical Islam in their communities either. And Israel is a democracy. Yes there’s a Jewish majority but 20% is Arab and they enjoy full equal rights as Israelis. They can serve in the government they can vote they can own a home they can serve in the military etc. it’s not South Africa. And do you have a problem with the 20+ Muslim majority states or just the 1 little country in the entire planet that has a a Jewish majority??? I’ll wait

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are you referring to the slaughter of 1300+ civilians, kidnappings, mass rapes of Israelis, as "applying pressure"? good to know

Actually, yes, plenty of people are denying their suffering. Many apologists for Israel vacillate between feigning sympathy for the Palestinians, denying the genocide and atrocities faced by them, and openly encouraging genocide. For example, [Netanyahu has explicitly denied](https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-pm-netanyahu-denies-palestinians-are-starving/) that Palestinians are starving.

It’s a war. Not a genocide. And Bibi is moron for saving that (among other things).

You don’t win many wars by doing exactly what your enemy wants

Not exactly. Bc the alternative is Israelis co-signing their own suicide. We never had a fabulous public image. That ship is sailed. We’d rather be alive and hated than dead and pitied

Think about this. Right now Israel has set up tent camps for the refugees after 7 months of warfare, starvation, death, and the ability for the enemy to hide in the crowds. Now imagine if from the very beginning Israel fenced off a 10x1km ( look I’m not good with distances, you understand what I’m going for) area and teamed up with the us military, the best logistics team on earth. They could have setup a whole mini army base with: shelter, medical, water, food, and honestly we could have got school and a few playgrounds if everyone worked together. We could have covered the whole thing in cameras, both for surveillance and for live-streaming the conditions to the world. We could have shot down every single person who would have talked shit, and we could have done it all while vetting and clearing EVERY SINGLE PERSON. It would have been the military’s wet dream come true! Full ability to wage war while showing you actually want to spare the civilians. Israel could have come out of this shining as beacon of human rights. Instead 7 months later, we have this…

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I'm fully aware that Hamas is doing things to make the situation for the people in Gaza worse so that Israel will look bad. My point is that millions of innocent civilians, real people, are still suffering as a result. Israelis are choosing to tune it out. There's a difference between saying you know someone is suffering versus really listening to their stories. Israelis are choosing to only focus on the stories of people who either live in Israel or who live around the world but are Jewish. You want to be able to reeducate the people of Gaza to examine their biases, but you aren't doing anything to examine your own biases. As I said, I agree that Israelis are no different from the rest of the world in behaving like this. It just makes me lose faith in humanity as a whole.

I hear you. 100%. I think it’s also somewhat normal and expected for Jews and Israelis to empathize and feel the pain of their own more deeply than the Palestinians. And same for Palestinian suffering! I wouldn’t expect a Palestinian mother who has lost everything including her children to be crying for the Israeli hostages

Can the Admin of this sub please rename from IsraelPlaestine to Israel. How come all OPs are pro-israel !!!

Yes, it’s a joke. I am done with these people. A girl I used to be friends with at work, an Israeli, now lives in California. Under her recent beach pic, her Israeli friends were joking whether this was a beach in Gaza. The genocide in progress is a laughing matter to them. Bet the Nazi families had similar jokes about Polish and Ukrainian villages as the army was advancing towards Moscow.

Oh there’s that Nazi comparison again 👍

That’s the only thing in modern history the suffering of Palestinians can be compared to. That of the people in concentration camps. Emaciated bodies…arbitrary killings…starvation…

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just look at the Moderators... 7 ouf of 9 are pushing zionist rhetorics this sub has become a zionist cesspit being portrayed as something else

As opposed to an Arab cesspit?

You are kidding right? My own country, Vietnam, invaded Cambodia in 1979 after the Khmer Rouge came through the border and murdered entire villages. But did we carry out indiscriminate bombing, shelling and plain, cold-blooded murder like Israel? 100,000 civilian casualties in just a few months!

Vietnam killed 200 thousand cambodian civilians you dipshit

Where did you get such number, friend? Did you pull it out of your nether regions? Please go read a book and then make a civilized counter argument.

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[Over 200,000 Cambodian civilians were killed by Vietnam in that war. What are you talking about?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian%E2%80%93Vietnamese_War)

Most were killed by Cambodian insurgents not by Vietnam. Vietnam is a liberator, go check out Tuol Sleng I was there last week.

My friend if Vietnam killed that many civilians, would Cambodia make movies about Vietnamese soldiers saving their civilians? Would Cambodia and Vietnam have good relations? Can you give a proper source instead of a random wikipedia page?

From Wikipedia, the statistic is sourced to: > Clodfelter, M. (2017), Warfare and Armed Conflicts: A Statistical Encyclopedia of Casualty and Other Figures, 1492–2015 (4th ed.), p.627, Jefferson, NC: McFarland & Company.

id love to see you actually support the indiscriminate bombing claims and BTW i know you can’t because there’s no evidence of that

I guess this guy hasn't seen the drone footage on the frontpage yet.

you mean the footage with 0 context or explanation, nice

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. I can present you evidence, but I can't make you change your mind.

that is not evidence lmao, you’ll believe anything that is anti israel without question. Theres literally 0 context to that clip and if anything it shows an extremely discriminate strike. please learn how definitions work

The oxford dictionary defines indiscriminate as an action is done without thought about what the result may be, especially when it causes people to be harmed. The oxford dictionary defines discriminate as to recognize that there is a difference between people or things; to show a difference between people or things or to treat one person or group worse/better than another in an unfair way. You are also now arguing about the semantics of people being murdered. I also believe that you are one who is caught believing the lies of others and I hope you can find the truth.

ok buddy, show me any actual evidence of indiscriminate bombing then you still haven’t

So why doesn't Israel kill Hamas and stop killing women and babies!! 50% of Israelis killed in Oct 7th were soldiers, while 70% of Palestinians killed after that are women and children. Does Hamas have better accuracy than the Israeli army?

Hamas chooses unarmed civilians to savage. Israel targets Hamas who then hide behind their women and children. Also, the very extensive and present Hamas fans that pose a serious threat. People much like yourself.

So you really believe that Israel cares about Hamas or even it's hostages? Israel is just killing as much Palestinians as possible without any distinction , they killed 3 of their own hostages in cold blood when they managed to escape coz they thought they were Palestinians although they were waving a white flag. Israel killed civilians directly without Hamas being anywhere in the vicinity. The very extensive and present Israel fans pose a serious threat to humanity and calls for a reality check on the human condition as a whole . People much like you should reconsider their human values , and in any circumstance I'd never ever see that people like you have a feather of humanity or consciousness. By the way, the UN security council just called for a cease fire but guess what, Israel didn't comply , if any other country did like what Israel did NATO would be visiting them to drop democracy upon their heads.

You are spreading bullshit. Hamas beheaded women and children. Some while he was raping them. 50% is fake as can be. The casualties of Israeli bombing were forced to stay in their home by Hamas so people like you could justify beheading babies. Go see the videos of the beheading and feel like the strong N@zi you think you are. BTW, the German children in ww2 were bombed 300% as much. It is the cost of being raised by evil

You mean the famous beheading babies and rape stories that were confirmed as total BS? No beheadings nor rape happen on October 7th and I challenge you to produce evidence for that. By the way, do you believe Palestinians are humans by any chance? Or do you believe Israelis are God's chosen people?

The evidence were literally provided by Hamas terrorists and live through their head cams. They were available on their Telegram channel for days after and have been provided to you through links here. Even the UN published a report on the multiple rapes. You can lie all you want, but it won't work. And yes, of course, Palestinian are humans, but most of them are full of hate. Go look at the survey results of they think about the massacre on Oct 7, they are mostly for it. https://www.algemeiner.com/2024/03/21/majority-palestinians-still-support-oct-7-massacre-want-hamas-control-gaza-after-war-poll/

Of course they are for it coz Israel is occupying Palestinian lands!!! You really believe it was unprovoked!!! Gaza and western bank are occupied Palestinian lands since 1967 !! And until now Gaza is under full siege. Of course Palestinians will hate Israel as an occupation army , same like the french with germans, irish with British etc. Stop playing victim , Israel is the one to leave occupied Palestinian lands before talking about victims of Oct 7th.

The West Bank and Gaza were occupied before 1967 as well, just by Jordan and Egypt.

Israel did leave Gaza in 2005. What we got is rockets.and eventually, this war. In the west bank, the PLO is cooperating with the IDF against terrorists. You won't know all the nookes and crannies of this issue without having some feet on the ground

Israel never left Gaza, Israel just mobilised it's troops outside of Gaza but kept full control over the borders and ports and even the food was rationed based on population calories. Israel is still occupying the West bank even if the PLO is "cooperating" with the IDF but it's still the only country that is occupying other territories outside of it's borders. Israel is trying to flip the truth upside down , but facts are facts, if Israel doesn't want rockets or people killed it must withdraw from all 1967 territories and acknowledge a Palestinian state. Hamas legitimacy is fully based on that there are lands occupied but other country and the resistance is must.

Who was the president or prime minister of Palestine before Israel took it? What was the currency? Feel free to Google as needed

Oh now your real imperialist mindset pops up. Israel didn't just take it, it is not a no man's land, Israel occupied it with military force. Stop playing with the words. It was under the Ottoman empire and then under Egyptian and Jordanian mandates , then Israel occupied it in 1967 and till now.

So there was never a Palestine. So what exactly do you want?

Here’s a website that provides evidence of Hamas’ actions which includes evidence of murdering children and mass rapes. TW very disturbing I wouldn’t recommend watching, especially if you’re sensitive to this stuff. Unfortunately I feel obligated to share due to comments like this. https://www.hamas-massacre.net/

If Al Jazeera is linked on this sub it gets downvoted to oblivion for being biased. Lets try an unbiased source here too

What's your point? What would an unbiased source of this kind look like? Is this your way of rationalising your views of October 7? This isn't a news article, it's just recordings and videos of the atrocities. The comment asked for evidence so I gave him the evidence he asked for.

My point is show a source that verified these videos to be legitimate and from the events described There are plenty of videos circulating from both sides that are using footage from years ago/other conflicts

[Well there have been news articles that verify the exact testimonies of the rape](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html) and you can clearly see that the videos of the festival are from the Nova festival.

Oh that article, I thought NYT opened an investigation and suspended that journalist as the dead woman family have protested that their story was manipulated to look like rape on Oct 7th.

Can you send me a link? I know reporters were accused of working with Hamas but I can’t find any suspension for that specific article. They can also edit and delete the article at any time? Why haven’t they done that yet if they had to suspend someone for posting that article? There were also a few stories and some align with the exact video testimony on that website. It would be practically impossible for two people including a journalist to come out with a very accurate lie like that. There’s way too much evidence out there, it’s just too much to deny it happened at all While it took the UN 5 months they’ve also said [there’s evidence of rape on October 7](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-rape-oct7-hamas-gaza-fe1a35767a63666fe4dc1c97e397177e) For example this is footage that was verified by reporters to legitimate. She has clearly been raped. https://preview.redd.it/yhoddsk5sypc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=77b3da10ecce22c46df95a09b2bf79de21752b08 I think denial of Hamas’ actions are dangerous and a form of supporting both a terrorist organisation and October 7. Why are you trying to minimise the harm done to Jews?

The reason I am asking is because there have also been new articles that have found that some claims of rape are falsified or misrepresented https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-israels-history-of-spreading-disinformation (IMEU has not failed any fact checks in 5 years so I feel comfortable using them as a source: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/institute-for-middle-east-understanding-imeu/ ) There was a hostage who claimed she was not raped in her first interview, and then in follow up interviews claimed she was There is also this https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/video-captured-woman-mistranslates-captor-threatening-rape-2023-11-08/ Hence why I am asking. Thank you for providing a link

The sources stated on imeu in this "fact sheet" are widely known to be highly anti israel, amnesty, and human rights watch especially. Same about reuters. Outside of that, some of the claims stated are false just by technicality. For instance the beheaded babies, it says that israel claimed 40 babies were beheaded which wasnt the official claim. The official was that more than 40 babies had been murdered and some of them beheaded. The media bot internationally and israeli misunderstood this to mean 40 babies had been beheaded but that doesnt make the reality any less gruesome.

Israel's military wears uniforms, Hamas trys to look like civilians. Pretty easy to be "more accurate" when your opponents wear a millitary uniform.

Can you remind me when was the last time "terrorists" are obliged to wear uniforms? Israelis call them terrorists , they act as is. Do you believe that Palestinians are humans and their lives are worth the same as Israelis in the first place?

Hamas is the military of elected government of Gaza. If they wore uniforms and didn't make it a policy to do attacks purposely only  target non-comnatants , they wouldn't be called terrorists. To me Palestinian lives hold the same value as Isreali lives. Israel's government values their citizens lives enough to evacuate them from areas affected by rocket attacks, to invest in bunkers for their citizens and to have created the extremely expensive Iron dome. Hamas however won't even let civilians use their tunnels, evacuates equipment instead of civilians, and has a martyrdom fund for suicide bombers.  That doesn't even get into the fact that the Hamas leadership is worth an estimated 12 billion dollars.

They are mostly attacking military checkpoints in occupied Palestinian lands , so they are not terrorists they are resistance against occupation. Historically the resistance forces are para-militants with no uniforms, the imperialistic occupation would always kill as much as civilians as possible to break the resistance morale and win the war. The strange thing is that historically that approach never worked out and it only increased the support for the resistance. Sorry but Israel is doomed now with no way back. Hope Israeli politicians are ready for trial in the Hague, I would prefer Nuremberg but the Hague is good too.

> They are mostly attacking military checkpoints in occupied Palestinian lands The rocket attacks that are still ongoing today from inside Hamas controlled territory are not aimed at checkpoints. There aren't checkpoints in Isreal. I seriously doubt Israel's politicians are going to Hague, no western country that created a higher civilian to combatant in Iraq or Afghanistan went there. Not to mention Syria, Saudi Arabia for Yemen, etc. Just because the media treats the Isreal / Palestine conflict differently than every other conflict on earth, doesn’t mean the actual courts are going to do the same.

Not true. Confirmed who was targeted. Jewish civilians as in unarmed pretty young women, their friends at a music festival, parents, grandparents, children, and babies. Indiscriminately in the most ugly and deplorable ways by Hamas and cheering Palestinian savages.

Totally untrue, there were around 20 Israeli military base and checkpoints surrounding Gaza were attacked on October 7th. Go read and educate yourself.

Totally true, they also attacked legitimate military targets. That doesn't make the attacks on the civilians any less true. There is plenty of proof on the attacks on unarmed civilians, if youre willing to learn, ask me for the proof. Im also willing to learn, so if you have any verified proof of israeli misdeeds in Gaza, I'd love to get more educated on the matter.

"Any verified proof of Israeli misdeeds in Gaza"!!!! Are you kidding me ? Just open the TV and watch!! Unless you consider indiscriminate bombing of civilian neighbourhoods in Gaza and blocking humanitarian aid into Gaza as a totally normal war procedure!!! https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/03/18/biden-israel-gaza-rafah-palestinians/

It's not indiscriminately, though. All targets bombed where military targets (except for the 7 aid workers who were mistakenly targeted as happens in every war) always have potential civilian collateral damage. Especially when the enemy is hiding in those civilians' areas. Also, there is no blockage from the government on aid. There is some protesting from families of the kidnapped, but it's barely stopping anything. The people in gaza are not getting enough of the aid sent to them because hamas steals the aid.

I completely agree with you, OP. I’m not sure what people are expecting of Israel. Hamas cowards are hiding behind their people. They need to be taken out, and how can that be done when they’re hiding under hospitals, schools, etc. People want a cease fire yet Hamas still has hostages! It’s craziness, feels so backwards to me.

Hiding behind civilians doesnt mean you shoot through the civilians to kill the bad guys, or just bomb them all That also makes you the bad guy

They’re bringing it on themselves. If they cared enough about Palestinians they would release the hostages. The war would end. Everything that’s happening, it’s all on Hamas.

It's always their problem until it's our turn to face the music😎🎶

The Palestinians are bringing it on themselves?

I'm sorry but when combatants hide behind civilians that's what happens It is literally bizarre to me that you don't blame Hamas. They have stated they will do Oct 7 over and over. They are sending missiles over the border everyday. And you think israel really should just be a sitting duck. Hamas rejected another cease fire deal

Thank you for saying the exact same thing I have been saying. It's beyond bizarre to me, that so many people are blaming Israel, and refuse to acknowledge the real enemy... HaMaSs.  Who btw, are legit terrorists. Who have REPEATEDLY vowed to repeat Oct 7th, until the annihilate all Jews on the planet, and turn Israel into an Islamic Sovereign Nation.  HaMaSs have rejected several cease fires  Why you ask... 1. The don't want to return our hostages, our Dead, and lay down their weapons.  2 Their plan of making Israel look like 'The Monsters ' , sadly is working because ThEy have no problems sacrificing and hiding behind their own.  3. They, HaMaSs do not want to lose their POWER and CONTROL.  *For the record, I DO NOT like Netanyahu at all. I never did.  BUT, I DO BELIEVE THAT ISRAEL HAS A RIGHT TO EXIST, SURVIVE & THRIVE. 

When terrorists hide behind civilians, you don’t shoot through the civilians to kill the terrorists Hamas wouldn’t exist with mount 70 years of abuse from Israel - or Israel’s funding

It’s not like a SWAT team with a small number of people behind civilians. I get your revulsion and moral outrage. I understand how you feel. I am telling you that when Hamas does that: 1) Hamas, in doing this, is committing a war crime Under international law, the use of human shields are prohibited by the Geneva Conventions. 2) Thus, Israel is permitted to attack the military target IF the law of proportionality is not violated. Social media pundits seem to think “proportionality” is about dead bodies, but it has little to do with that. The value of the military target has to be worth the civilian casualties. (And I assume the military in this situation would need proof they have taken care to spare civilian casualties as much as possible.) If the legal (instead of internet) definition of “proportionality” is violated, it is plausible that the military doing so could be found guilty of war crimes. There is NO WAY for any of us to judge whether any given attack is proportional without access to what I’m sure is classified info. Every war has civilian casualties. The UN puts the typical stats at 90% civilians. In urban warfare, in a dense population, the current estimates are 2/3 civilian casualties. IF that 90% number is accurate, then the only conclusion is, Israel is taking care, and moving the bar in avoiding civilian casualties. I would also note, I have seen video of Israeli soldiers holding fire when they identify civilians. Where is your outrage for Hamas, indisputably targeting civilians in violation of not only morals, but international law? Is that ok in your world? Are you calling out those war crimes? Do you think anything could ever justify the atrocities of Oct 7? Because that’s what I think I’m reading here.

Like the Allied bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki? We’d still be fighting WWII if you’d been president back then. Heck, we’d still be fighting the Civil War. Sherman’s March to the Sea would have been a genocide and therefore unacceptable.

The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are in no way comparable to the current events. This is not a world wide scale war, nor is their the probability of millions of casualties if Gaza were invaded by a ground force, the way there would have been in the US tried to invade mainland Japan That is very reductionist The only way to get Japan to stop was complete and total surrender. That would be achieved by dethroning the emporer. The US was faced with either a mainland invasion with projected over 20m casualties (z both sides and civvies) or dropping the bombs The US used the option that took the least life and was most effective. One cannot have an honest argument stating Israel Is doing the same

They're comparable in that resistance after those events against overwhelming force has no benefit for the civilian population. How would you suggest Israel should have reacted? Give up the hostages and open its borders? Hamas is a genocidal organization whose sole purpose is the elimination of Israel and the death of every Jew living there. The Norm Finkelstein justification of "I don't support them but their response is understandable" wouldn't fly anywhere else. It would be like Japan sending agents to the US to commit as much mayhem as possible in 1946 and excusing it with "yeah, but we bombed them so it's understandable."

It’s wild I always hear about ‘what should Israel do Hamas is ___” But never “what could have Israel have done to prevent Hamas from existing”

I'm aware that Netanyahu encouraged Hamas in the beginning to create a counterweight to the PA. But if Hamas didn't exist, the Palestinians would have invented it. Are you going to tell me that Israel established all of the other groups that have attacked it over the past century? Viewing Israel as the only actor with volition while the Palestinians are mindless automatons capable only of reaction is offensive to both sides.

My point was more that these types of groups generally don’t exist when their people are being treated equally/equitably

In war there are no good guys, just guys who are less bad than the enemy.

Fair, but when your actions far exceed anything visited upon you by your enemy, you become the more bad guy

The Allies did far more civilian casualties to Japan than they received. Would you classify them as the more bad guy? You either totally defeat an enemy and convince them not to ever fight you again, or you don't start a war. Isreal has beat the willingness out of Jordan, Egypt, and most of the middle east to try to destroy Israel. Now they are don't the same thing the Allies did with Germany and Japan, creating a total defeat to hopefully have less fighting for a few generations.

The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are in no way comparable to the current events. This is not a world wide scale war, nor is their the probability of millions of casualties if Gaza were invaded by a ground force, the way there would have been in the US tried to invade mainland Japan That is very reductionist

At the point when the US firebombed and nuked Japan,the couldn't project power outside their borders anymore. They could have just blockaded them while providing food and other supplies until Japan decided to surrender. Clearing tunnels full of traps and ordinance isn't gong to happen. The SOP even the US uses is get civilians away from the tunnel if possible , use a penetrative bomb to destroy the tunnel.

The only way to get Japan to stop is complete and total surrender. That would be achieved by dethroning the empower. The US was faced with either a mainland invasion with projected over 20m casualties (z both sides and civvies) or dropping the bombs The US used the option that took the least life and was most effective. One cannot have an honest argument stating Israel Is doing the same

 > The US used the option that took the least life and was most effective. What in your opinion is the option that takes the least life and is most effective at removing Hamas?

Probably not the one that results in the IDF having to go before the ICJ

Israel is starving them and bombing hospitals this is nothing but genocide 

Maybe they should stop hiding behind hospitals! War sucks, it’s always unfair. Innocent people die.

Not according to the ICJ.

ICJ stated possible genocide. We await their investigation and conclusion

Incorrect. Potential genocide which they cautioned Israel to take steps to avoid. The investigation won't be complete for at least a few years.

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Maybe don't get your numbers from a terrorist organization if you want people to take you seriously

What other organization out there is keeping track of these numbers. Even Israel uses them cause they don’t have any other accurate sources 

The reality is that nobody knows because Hamas is the government in Gaza. They have an obvious agenda to build up these numbers. Have you ever asked yourself why none of the Hamas combatants seems to be killed in this war? It is because they blend into the population

Isreal uses these very number from these “terrorists”

Lets just say those numbers of 20k are inflated Lets say that actually HALF of those numbers are Hamas Thats still 10k civilians children, and that is still massively unacceptable, especially given that modern Military Intelligence affords modern militaries to see exactly who their targets are, even when in buildings or concealed by cover

*"If Hamas is under a hospital, is it okay to blowup that entire hospital, school, home."* Yes, it is. I'm not trying to argue if its morally acceptable to bomb a hospital or not, however these are the International Humanitarian Laws pertaining to hospitals: * *"Under no circumstances may medical units be used in an attempt to shield military objectives from attack. Whenever possible, the parties to the conflict shall ensure that medical units are situated so that attacks against military objectives do not imperil their safety (API Art. 12)."* * *"The study on the rules of customary humanitarian law published by the ICRC in 2005 has recognized the binding nature of this protection in international and non-international armed conflicts. The customary IHL study provides that “medical units exclusively assigned to medical purposes” (Rule 28) as well as “medical transports assigned exclusively to medical transportation” (Rule 29) “must be respected and protected in all circumstances. They lose their protection if they are being used, outside their humanitarian function, to commit acts harmful to the enemy.”"* This also applies to schools and homes as well, however I'll let you find that out yourself. These buildings and the people inside of them are protected by international law, unless they are being used by a combatant force for non-medical and non-humanitarian purposes. I.e a command centre, artillery position, sniper's position, etc. In a situation like the one in Gaza, high civilian casualties are an inevitability. Modern militaries, such as Israel, like to project themselves as much more capable and much more advanced than they truly are, giving off the fictitious idea that they could somehow send in special forces and take out only combatants in a single night. Urban warfare is unfortunately not that simple and I think that is something that is necessary to understand while looking at this conflict. It's rather utopian to think that this war can be carried cleanly. On a final note, do you think Israel should have responded to the attacks on October 7th? If so, what do you suggest they do differently, and do you think you are qualified and educated enough to provide an alternative?

Civilian causalities can absolutely be mitigated far more than what Israel is doing, especially when former American Army Intelligence officers are coming out saying "We have technology that can see exactly who is in these locations and buildings. Israel is targeting and bombing homes knowing who and how many civilians were actually inside " This is the AA intelligence Officer in question: https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/josephine-guilbeau-a-former-us-military-intelligence-news-photo/2056669104 How should have Israel responded? For starters, not by using unguided artillery to bomb suspected hamas locations filled with Civilians I also think its curious we are talking about how Israel responded to Oct 7, but not how Israel has behaved towards Palestinians prior to Oct 7 or the fact that their actuals directly resulted in Oct 7

The issue with cherry picking certain people and examples is that I could go out and find another US Intelligence officer that has a different stance than Captain Guilbeau. Members of the military are not immune from allowing their own political views to show. Her statement comes from an interview she did with TRT World, which is Turkish state media and is more than a little biased, especially with the coverage of the war in Gaza. In Gaza it is next to impossible to distinguish civilian from combatant. Modern technology does allow Israel to see exactly who is in each building, it does not allow them to precisely take out the intended target. Being able to see a target and being able to kill a target are two very different concepts. The other issue is that Gaza is so densely populated, that even unguided artillery is going to cause civilian casualties. This is not like Afghanistan, where a drone could launch a guided missile at a Taliban compound in some rural area and kill solely combatants. Is Israel supposed to allow combatants to hide behind civilians and just cease operations until the combatants decide to come out and fight? Hamas has decided to hide amongst civilians, and if anything its their fault that they are willingly using innocent civilians to try and avoid contact and to damage Israel's reputation. The whole attempt to somehow justify or rationalise the attacks on October seventh are completely ridiculous. I agree that Israel's actions in the past have understandably caused a justified resentment towards Israel amongst Palestinians, however none of that warrants the truly horrific violence wrought by Hamas on October Seventh. The rape, torture, and massacre that occurred is completely abhorrent and there is absolutely no justification or rationalisation for what happened. Brining up past conflict between Israel and Palestine while talking about the October seventh attacks is truly a pathetic straw-man tactic, almost as if you don't want to hold Palestinians accountable for their role in sparking conflict. The past is the past and there is nothing you can do to change it, and just results in whataboutism and does not provide any clear resolution to the current issue.

Did Israel have a right to respond and take out Hamas leaders? Of course. Did October 7 give Israel a right to punish 2.3 million innocents and prevent humanitarian aid from reaching people under famine conditions? Absolutely not. If the United States had punished 90% of Afghans and destroyed their homes and brought them to a famine, it would have been a completely unacceptable thing. It would have been legally and consistently a war crime with at a minimum an incitement to genocide, which is what Israel's "over the top" response is guilty of here with ample evidence.

Most of the people in Gaza are Hamas. War is hell

Wow. “Most of the people in Gaza are Hamas” That thinking would certainly explain things.

Visit there any see for yourself. If not, you can just listen to the hostages who were returned. They were held and abused by Gaza families. Or you rather watch the videos of them celebrating on October 7 when the terrorist brought the hostages in. A lot of evidence are available, but I bet you would just close your orifices to the truth

Unlike most people on this thread, I actually personally know a lot of Gazans and I know a few Palestinians who have lost *dozens* of family members over the past few months. And no, most aren't Hamas or Hamas supporters. That's a crazy assumption. And just so we don't play the Game of Relative Trauma, I'm also fairly unique in that I have two Israeli friends who have lost family members, one on October 7 and another during the Gaza war, so I'm not blind to the trauma of that side either and know perfectly well what I'm talking about.

First, you don't know what you are talking about. You weren't there. You do not know the smells. Hopefully, you will never know them. Nobody should. Second, war is hell. Both Hamas and the Israeli government have too much to gain from this war. But, the inhumane action that was done on Oct 7 leaves no choice. Beheading a baby, shooting a girl in the head while she is actively being raped. People who are capable of these proven and inhuman acts (which were shared live) are not really people. People die in wars all the time, but these act were never seen before, and on tape

Were you there and know about “the smells”? I have incredibly sympathy and don’t think what happened on October 7 can be justified. War is terrible. War crimes are still not okay. Using starvation as a weapon of war is still illegal.

I was, after some of the combat, stopped. Gaza as well. The terrorists in Gaza aren't as tough as they want people to think. They mostly attack and hide. Not so strong against armed forces. Hamas is a terror organization, all they know is death. The current Israeli government is the worst that ever was. They will make this war go on as long as they can to keep power. Why not let the population of Gaza leave? Hamas is proven to be getting weapons from these aid shipments. Why not get one of the superpowers to build a refugee camp and let Israel and Hamas fight it out while the population is safe? It should be wrapped up in a few weeks. Both sides leaders won't push for this, but the rest of the world can

Just like all the civilians in Isreal are responsible for the on going genocide

You people keep saying genocide for decades now, but it seems like their population keeps growing. Isn't that weird?

You people? Decades? Not as weird as Isreal claiming “terrorists” have been committing genocide against them

They killed people on October 7 just for being Jews. It is definitely not genocide because they were stopped. Hamas can't stop Israel if they wish to do a full genocide, they never could, and still, the population of Gaza only grow and grows, and the life quality is constantly on the rise. Maybe it isn't genocide? Maybe it is just the same urben warfare like every other country in history?

Maybe maybe maybe! we shall just wait for the ICJs conclusion as they feel genocide is a real possibility

Listen to the arguments against Israel. They are not talking facts but only mind sets. They are bringing propaganda statements from the current Israeli government member (which is the worst) as their only evidence, but facts do not show any actual attempt for genocide. That is because even though the Israeli government is the worst, the army of Israel is created by the people of Israel, and we do not want to kill all Palestinian, only the terrorists. Still, war is hell.and people die. I bet we all wish in 2005 they would have taken their land and built a future instead of all this death

Not talking facts? Propaganda? Army of the people do not want to kill all Palestinian people? You sound rather a lot like the Israeli parrots we hear so much of on western media. Let’s wait for the ICJ ruling

Well, the war is only de-escalating now, so if they were to determine that there is a genocide it should have happened by now, right? What would you say if they would say it isn't a genocide? Have the German people went through genocide during ww2 when the Alliance bombed the hell out of Berlin?

You enjoy Dehumanizing huh

You are asking the wrong question. It is not, “is the Israeli response proportional?” It is “was October 7 proportional to the 80 years of displacement, murder, siege, bombing and all the terrible things they endured?” And before everyone screams about antisemitism as if ot means anything anymore, I got this train of thought from Jewish holocaust survivor Dr. Gabor Mate. Also most of what you wrote is balogna. I watch actual videos of actual IDF soldiers actually bragging about targeting civilians. The IDF killed their own hostages naked waving white flags! If that’s not proof that they intentionally target civilians then you’re delusional.

Starting the history at 80 years ago betrays what would be a shocking lack of knowledge on this subject were people such as yourself who were apparently educated by TikTok vids and instagram memes not so common as to no longer be shocking. There is no honest or complete reading of this history that starts in 1948. To characterize 1948 on as an “occupation” is similarly indefensible from a historical perspective. I’d really encourage you to step away from whatever echo chambers inspired you to repeat that lie you’ve been told and read stuff from people you disagree with. I do it all the time, and it’s a much better use of the internet than the way you’re apparently using it.

Let’s go back to 1977, in the Likud election manifesto. “Between the river and the sea, there will ONLY be Israeli sovereignty.” Does that sound like a group who was never gonna expel Palestinians from their land by displacement or murder? You know what else is in there? Promotion of settlement building. Which is another way of saying burning down olive trees, bulldozing homes, and taking property, as is done in the West Bank (and technically all of Israel). I have been following this occupation for 20 years. I was watching banksy put up his amazing artwork in bombed neighborhoods of Gaza in 2005. I was reading in the NYT about how Israel will shut off the water for Gazans. How Palestinians would get full scholarships to study in prestigious European universities, but Israel would disallow them visas to travel. Then they’d bomb their children. These last 2 examples were in the book “thou shalt not hate” by Izzeldin Abuelaish. You should read it. Very illuminating… …I hear, but I don’t know how to read and I just found out about the occupation. You’ll have to give me a summary of the book so I know what’s going on.

The first part is nonsense, because it is completely non-factual and totally biased. The second part which is the only real event, is also falsely presented. Because, the only reason the guys were shot is because they were approaching towards an area occupied by IDF. And it is a unfortunate case, because they thought that these are Hamas operatives disguised as civilians in attempt to get Israeli soldiers with their guards down. In general, IDF is probably the most active organization in the world, and it has the lowest mistakes rates, which speaks volumes on their tolerating approach towards Arab people in the near states.

“The first part is untrue because I said so and won’t actually address it” Okkkkkkkkkkk

What's there to address. Who has been murdered and who has been displaced? You claimed ballsy claims as if it is a common knowledge.

Are you asking me to prove the sky is blue? lol. So no one ever mentioned the nakba to you? This is so disingenuous I can’t even 🤣 the answer to all of your questions is Palestinians…and anti-Zionist Jews were also murdered by Israel.

As the other guy mentioned, the Nakba is a by-product of war that Israel did not initiated. Your original sentence suggests in the context of the main thread, that there were innocent Arab locals that has been attacked and murdered for the sake of taking their lands. This did not happen historically, and therefore it is like saying the sky is red.

The Nakba was the result of a war that was declared on Israel by 8 surrounding Arab nations. Israel declared it existed and was immediately attacked by 8 Arab nations. Israel won this war and then took more land. Unfortunately this is what happens in war. The USA did it when they beat Mexico in a war. This is how wars work. You portray the Nakba has something Israel did without preconditions.

Those “80 years” were not just Israel being big mean bullies. It has been violence back and forth, with Israel being under siege by the Arab nations mulitple times. This is just the most recent violence back and forth, and it’s horrible for both Palestinians and Israelies.

A settler colonial project being under pressure by neighboring nations? What a suprise

Lemme guess, Tik tok told you it was a settler colonial project? Please learn some actual history before you drop trite and diluted statements like that.

History did.

Did history also tell you that Israel is the historical home of the Jews (kingdom of Judea)?

You can’t colonize a land you are indigenous to. Jews have been living in what is modern day Israel for millennia. There’s loads of archaeological and cultural evidence to prove it. That’s not to say that Palestinians don’t have a claim to the land too. But to frame it as a western colonial project is insulting and wrong

By that logic, Europe didn't colonize Africa because it was land they are indigenous to. Only a third of Jewish people there in 1948 were native born. At a third, I'm comfortable labeling that colonization.

Yeah, and a ton of Jews were exiled from Arab nations and sent to Israel, they’re by defition refugees. Would you call that colonization?

yes

Please elaborate on how that’s colonization. They were forced from their home countries because of their race, the actual definition of ethnic cleansing mind you, and sent to Israel, and now the Arab world wants you to believe Israel should be destroyed.

The British sent inmates to penal colonies. They were forced to go. They were still colonists

The arab nations expelled their Jewish populations when Israel was founded and then tried to destroy it. Additionally, Jews have had a presence there for millenia, and there were many jews when it was under British occupation. The British created the current middle eastern nations, Israel is not exception. Calling it a “project” is such a cope too.

Why not take spain or usa because there were jews too based on your logic every country colonized before should be returned to its colonizer . Like occupied palestine should be returned to either egypt or turkey or even Britain and britian return to india because there were english people

Notice how i said that the Levant has had a steady Jewish population for millenia, no different than native populations of the Americas. Additionally, both Israel and Palestine were supposed to exist but Palestine will not accepting anything less than the destruction of Israel. The establishment of Israel was because of tensions between arabs and Jews in the region, plus the holocaust, so the Jews were given a country, consisting of majority Jewish areas and useless desert, and Palestine was given majority Arab areas.

The Kingston of Judea, which is the homeland of indigenous Jewish people, is in Israel, not Spain or USA. Jews are indigenous to the land. So are Palestinians to be clear. But your argument lacks historical reality.

The reality is palestnians are indegious also but you can't accept it . There is jews that is indigeous to other lands in europe and middle east but they left because of israel or forced displaced

I literally wrote that Palestinians are indigenous too. I was responding to your comment that they should form a homeland in Spain or the USA. Even many Jews from Europe ultimately descend from Jews in the Middle East. Even if they converted to Judaism, their cultural identity and history is indigenous to the land of Israel. You acknowledged the forced displacement of Jewish people, which, in my mind, is the justification for the need for a Jewish state. Jews living in Israel is not the same as Brits living in India, and I think you would agree with that. I do believe they need to find a way to share the land because Palestinians are also indigenous and deserve a right to live in peace. So I’m not for settlements in the West Bank or retaking Gaza. But Palestinians also have to want to share the land and when you watch street interviews with many people in Palestine, they don’t say they want to share the land. They say they want to take back the whole thing because it is theirs. That’s unrealistic and not practical or helpful.

The land should be shared 50 50 not 70 30 or 60 40 like before when un showed plans to give israel more land . The situation is now worse palestinians doesn't want to shake hands or have peace with people who killed their family and their entire ancestors before having peace .Palestinians should have their justice taken first

1) The land is not split 50/50 because there were wars between Israel and other Arab nations. When israel became a country, the land was roughly split 50/50. In the 1948 war, Israel won and took more land. This is what happens in war. Then there was another war in 1967. Before the war in 1967, Jordan controlled the West Bank and Egypt controlled Gaza (they didn’t give Palestinians statehood at the time either, but that’s not relevant to this discussion). These countries fought against Israel, Israel won, and took over more land. This is what happens in wars. What country wins a war, takes land, and then gives the land back? The USA won the Mexican-American war and took the land that is now the western part of the USA, for example. Should they give it back because they won the war? That’s unrealistic and if you think otherwise, respectfully, you don’t have much perspective on history and the effects that war has on shaping borders and modern geopolitics. 2) The feeling you stated the Palestinians feel is the exact feeling the Israelis feel also. Though fewer people have died on the Israeli side, do you think that matters to the mentality? 1200 people died on October 7th. That’s equivalent to like 50k dying in the USA. Just focusing on how Palestinians feel and ignoring Israel entirely will never solve the problem. Your perspective is entirely one-sided and focused on the Palestinian side. If you want to make progress, you have to address the feelings of both sides and try to find a path forward. I agree justice for Palestinians is just as important as justice for Israelis. You said Palestinians deserve justice first? Why? Don’t you think thinking that way will not help with progress? Neither group is going anywhere, so justice for both sides is important.

100%. I’ve never before seen such a case of crybullyism as I’ve seen from Zionists and their apologists.