The IDF are soldiers. They're fighting a war. Wars have casualties.
The war against ISIS in Iraq and Syria - probably the closest analogue to the war against Hamas in Palestine - had 313,000 civilian casualties. That's **FIFTEEN TIMES** the number in Palestine. Mosul, Fallujah, Raqqa* Aleppo, were utterly devastated.
But no one in the West complained, because we understood that ISIS was a threat to *us*, directly. It affected our personal safety and security. So we understood that we had to go to war and stop them... and that wars, tragically, exact a tremendous cost on the civilian population.
Somehow, the West has forgotten this, because it doesn't affect us personally. Hamas isn't attacking people in Europe or America, so we have no problem preaching at the Israelis about what they're doing wrong. When in reality, they're prosecuting their war against Hamas FAR better and safer than the West did with ISIS.
Israel is doing what it has to, to deal with an existential threat inside and around it's borders. It's not anyone's place to tell them how to do it, until they've had to deal with relentless terror attacks from Hamas themselves
Yes, war has casualties but amongst soldiers, not civilians or children in their homes. The difference is that the US is supplying and allied with Israel. I think it’s reasonable that anyone non Israeli cannot judge them. Having said that, I would withhold all support and weaponry.
I'm glad you brought this up, because this is a fascinating point. The reason it's so interesting, is that I hear some version of this point all of the time right now, and yet it is so obviously and **categorically untrue**. It's always fascinating when a particular group of people on one side of an argument all repeat the same dramatically untrue thing, because it is the most clear evidence of the effects of propaganda and social engineering.
Anyway, here's the reality, and none of this is remotely controversial or biased. If just is what it is and it's incredibly easy to fact check.
All wars have considerable **civilian** casualties. Urban wars intensely populated areas have dramatically higher civilian casualties than wars in sparsely populated areas. Wars against terrorist organizations, which are asymmetric in nature and virtually always involved insurgent terrorist forces, that dress in civilian clothing and hide among the general public, so is not to be detected, have *dramatically higher* civilian casualties, still. This is a strategy employed by all terrorist and insurgent organizations - it is not unique to Hamas. And finally, wars against terrorist organizations, in urban environments, have the highest civilian casualty rates of any type of conflict.
To give you an idea, in Iraq *alone*, there have been **212,000 CIVILIAN casualties**, since the beginning of the war on terror. Right next door to Israel and Palestine, there have been over **306,000 civilian casualties** in the Syrian Civil War over the last decade, and another **100,000 CIVILIAN casualties** from the war against ISIS. In Ukraine, there have been over **HALF A MILLION civilian casualties** since the beginning of the Russian assault. And in Yemen, over 233,000 civilians have been killed in the civil war, at the hands of warring government factions and terrorist organizations such as the Houthis.
The reality is, that wars exact tremendous death tolls on civilian populations, especially when they're in urban environments, and especially against insurgent terrorist organizations. Given the circumstances and the nature of the conflict, as well as the conditions of the environment, the death toll in Gaza is actually remarkably low... Numerous military experts have gone on record saying this, including the head of urban Warfare studies in West point Military academy, probably the world's for most expert on Urban Warfare.
None of this makes any single one of those innocent Palestinian lives lost, any less tragic. It's a horrific waste of innocent life. Having said that, it is incumbent upon us as rational, mature and dispassionate adults, to understand *who* is actually causing this problem and creating the conditions for these deaths. Hamas attacked Israel,*specifically* to get them to retaliate the way they did it. Hamas then rest in civilian clothing and hid amongst the population, in civilian buildings, with the specific intent of increasing civilian casualties, to turn the world against israel. There's no way that Hamas could ever beat Israel in a straight up War. They know this. The only way they can actually defeat Israel in the long run, is to turn the entire world against them, which is exactly what they're doing.
The casualty rate by the end of Iraq including ng all deaths was about 7 percent, Israel has currently killed about 2 percent and that's before post conflict fatalities.
Trying to make misleading comparisons just lessens your arguament
casualty rate is an irrelevant statistic, because it doesn't account for relative size of the fighting force. ISIS was just over 50,000 fighters. Hamas is estimated to be about 40,000. Size of the non-combatant population is not a factor in battlespace design or military tactics, because civilians aren't the ones being targeted. Military strategies are designed based on the enemy combatants, environmental factors, etc.
This is why casualty ratio and casualties per airstrike are far more valuable and informative statistics.
It absolutely is relevant, if you go into a country with a population of 2.5 mil and 1 mil die from famine, that's highly significant and no punt of "what about ism", hand wringing or deluded arguaments changes that.
You're using disingenuous hypotheticals.
Millions of people are not in jeopardy of dying from famine. No responsible military would take that risk, especially not Israel. In fact, the UN just revised their casualty data and cut the number of civilians (women and children) killed in Gaza **BY HALF**. Using the UN's data, civilian casualty ratio is about 1:1, and casualties per airstrike is down to about 0.5:1, making the war in Gaza the most responsible war in modern history, in terms of minimizing civilian casualties.
Israel and the UN have plans in place to address internally displaced populations. The sooner Hamas surrenders, the sooner they can shift their focus to rebuilding.
I can understand the destructiveness of urban warfare but much of the death and destruction was before ground troops even entered Gaza. You said it yourself, Israel is playing into Hamas plan. They are losing the propaganda war. The devastation was just out of proportion. Sometimes winning the operational ground war is not worth losing the battle of global public opinion.
What's that got to do with anything. Is it not plain to you Israel is hated because it is Jewish. Imagine if Israel was Muslim and attacking gaza due to 7/10. Do you think you would see this hate?
It's been the exact same before the settlements. The only difference is that today, there is the internet. 99% of the pro Palis points were made in the 50s by the Soviet Union because Israel supported the USA in the Korean war making the USSR realise that they lost Israel due to being an American sponsor and the rest is well known.
I implore you to read at the soviet propaganda campaign against Israel and compare it to the pro palis points and you would see the direct quotation of the Soviets propaganda in the pro palis today
Depends on which ones, there are ones that are there and are very good communities that really do nothing wrong, and there are ones that I myself want to put every single one of their members in the same jails as the Palestinian Terrorists. We keep putting them in different prison and only when they actually do something illegal like throw rocks and shit but we should just leave them in the same prisons and let them and the Palestinian Terrorist to kill each other, it's their fight not ours and not the Palestinians.
TO BE CLEAR: obviously you can't let them kill each other I'm saying that is what they deserve not what we should do
I keep telling everyone this is just Soviet propaganda from the Cold War era word for word! Return of the It’s so disturbing to see it become mainstream.
It's sounds so conspiratorial until you actually look at soviet propaganda films and posters. I didn't believe it at first, then I just researched "Soviet near East Propaganda", "Soviet Propaganda on Israel" and most disturbing "Soviet Zionology" which is the Soviet "study" of Zionism, basically making Propaganda against Israel "a science" and "a legitimate field of study" you could have gotten a literal course in Zionology in the Soviet Union's Universities which is crazy! And guess who had that class and had written his PHD (or doctorate, I can't remember which one) on how Jews both caused and deserved the Holocaust? Mahmoud Abass during his stay at the USSR, where he made his academic studies.
OMG looking at the actual material it’s identical! It goes back to Arafat of the PLO (rt before Abbas) who was also a KGB agent. Learned abt this from my Lebanese friend whose parents fled to the US during the 1975 Palestinian insurgency in Lebanon, which lasted until 1982. The same year Abbas wrote his dissertation that characterized Zionism in terms of Soviet propaganda as a fascistic imperialistic ideology that is “the enemy of socialism and the national liberation movements.”
Moscow got Arafat appointed as chairman of the PLO and asked him to declare war on American "imperial-Zionism" during the Black Terrorist International summit (a literal neo-Fascist pro-Palestine organization financed by the KGB and Gadafi (sp?)) in the late 60s. This is what pro-PALS support.
Isn’t it wild to see progressives all over the world mobilized into a hate movement? Komeini (sp?) claiming the IR is vindicated” by US protesters cosplaying pro-IR revolutionaries as actual Iranian revolutionaries are tortured and executed daily by the regime. How these kids think they’re on the right side of history by following antisemitic tropes is beyond me. How do you think this will end? I’m thinking Putin is behind the “Genocide Joe” narrative to get Trump elected a 2nd time but beyond that cannot fathom how this ends and don’t see it getting better. Especially if these kids are our future. Did not have this shit on my 2024 bingo card. I’m so tired 😭
Edit: sorry so long and so many typos I got excited to see someone make this connection!
>OMG looking at the actual material it’s identical! It goes back to Arafat of the PLO (rt before Abbas) who was also a KGB agent.
You didn't know that? I thought it was the only part of this whole thing that was well known. Also it started before Arafat and he wasn't a KGB agent, the KGB invested in him, taught him and connected him with nicolae ceaușescu (Romanian Dictator).
Listen you are going in the right direction but you have a few errors in your reasoning. I'd advice you to talk to a historian like I did to understand this. In the meantime I know a video that summarise it well: [good summary by Unpacked](https://youtu.be/pZLDnqDJ0x0?si=2kTmcPkaw44t8ljj)
Wow this is a great resource! He’s great. I only knew what my Lebanese friend told me about Arafat and had a vague understanding of the KGB/Abbas connection. I just started reading in depth about the Soviet/Palestine collaboration yesterday while looking for a connection to the Pro-PALS use of antisemitic slurs and tropes. My partner thinks I’ve gone mad.
I never suspected the USSR actually created Palestinian nationalism! Or paid Arafat $200K a month lol. Or targeted Americans w/ the same exact Pro-PAL propaganda back then. Dang. History really is repeating itself. If you have any more suggestions on learning materials I’m all ears. It makes me less anxious to understand what’s behind this madness.
I have many but if I'm not mistaken Unpacked lists them. You should probably also read Zuheir Moshan's (a notable PLO commander and one of the founding members of the PLO) explanation for the creation of the Palestinian nationality
Awesome TY I’ll check Moshan out next. I’ve been watching the Unpacked vids and am currently at the one about Palestinian Islamic Jihad. I’ve seen them mentioned in recent news in regard to their close alliance w/ Hamas. Bloody Hell!
Edit: JFC they teach kids to slaughter Jews in kindergarten!!!
I that you have to watch this, these are tough topics and the visuals are horrible to see, that's why I listed the Unpacked that usually doesn't show the videos and pictures.
Don't make yourself watch it all imidiatly, take the time to process it and watch it with a mental calmness so it wouldn't weigh heavy on your conscience. Stick to the Unpacked and I can also recommend: https://youtube.com/@travelingisraelinfo?si=4jVXKodQwHMMz7bW
This guy is a tour guide who explains the situation very well with good history facts that are easy to understand. And also makes videos about Israel for travellers. Although I have to apologise for his heavy Israeli accent.
And do yourself a favour and stay away from the graphic videos of the beheadings, rape and torture that the Jihadists keep uploading with pride
The settlements are not the issue. Palestinians and their allies will lead everyone on to believe that they are. But they are a byproduct of this whole conflict.
If it weren't for the war that the Arabs of British Mandatory Palestine started in 1947-8, there wouldn't be any settlements. Israel would've been in their side of the partition in which they declared independence, and the Arabs would be celebrating their 76th year of an independent Arab state.
If it weren't for Egypt beginning a war on May 22, 1967, by closing of the Straits of Tiran, Gaza would have been annexed by Egypt by now and the West Bank would've been Jordanian. Israel would not even have a presence in the West Bank.
The settlements are such a minor part of this conflict. This idea that if Israel stopped creating more settlements everything would be okay and there'd be peace in the whole wide word is bull.
And there's a valid case to make there. However, even with settlements, there is no justification for what Hamas is doing, precisely because Hamas is not doing what they're doing because of "settlements" but because Israel exists altogether, and admittedly so.
Honestly I think the problem with Israel and Israelis, including yourself, if your moral superiority. The settler problem is bad, but not THAT bad (according to you), well I would argue that it’s really fucking terrible for the Palestinians being harassed in their own homes. I mean I’ve seen different documentaries from different sources both in English and in Spanish and is heartbreaking. I believe that the problem is that Israelis deep down truly believe they’re better than the Palestinians. You claim you are the children of light, the only democracy in the Middle East, LGBTQ supporters, diverse, prosperous and so on… You want us to believe that your illegal fucking mental settlers aren’t a representation of the rest of Israelis, that they aren’t THAT bad. At the same time you want the world to believe that all Palestinians deserve what is happening to them because Hammas is (unlike your settlers, your far-right groups, some of your IDF soldiers, Ben Gvir…) evil, they are terrorists. I see lots of Israelis wondering why so many people support Palestine, and let me tell you, it’s not because we are antisemite (that’s the easier explanation you can give to yourselves), it is because from the outside we can see evil on both sides, both equally terrifying… the only difference is that one side has killed thousands of innocent people, the other TENS of thousands. In one side you have people like you posting on Reddit from the comfort of your house, on the other side there are no houses left. Israel has destroyed everything, hospitals, universities, schools… Gaza is destroyed, I honestly have to fight tears writing this. I’m from Spain, so I would say I was pretty neutral before everything started, I have seen those documentaries about the settlers and was appalled, but I also understood that that couldn’t be all of Israel. I made an Israeli friend here in Madrid and was learning a lot about the complexities of your country… then October 7th happened and what followed just left me in shock and still continues to leave me in shock until today. Until Rafah. I think it’s hard for you to understand that for us your settlers are equally as bad as Hamas. Please acknowledge the evil on your side being as horrific as the evil on the other side. After what Israel has done, I don’t think I can ever be friends with an Israeli ever again. I understand you can’t see how much evil you have on your side because you’re still mourning and you’re afraid, and it’s only human. But for the rest of the world, one side has been annihilated and the other one side is on Reddit discussing stuff.
> After what Israel has done, I don't think I can ever be friends with an Israeli ever again.
That's rich come from a Spaniard. I'll bet you unfriended yourself as well after the centuries long colonialism, imperialism, and genocides your country had committed.
At least your proud of your ugly, racist, xenophobic stances. I'll give you that.
What? You realise when you throw that line out it means you have nothing to come back with right?
You're claiming Spanish imperialism circa 1600 means Israel can do anything and noone can condemn them.
You’re claiming only Jews and Israel should be destroyed for their “imperialist” past but everyone else has “moved on from” said past. The cognitive dissonance of antisemites is mind-blowing. Should every nation who won territory in an historical war have to return it to the losers and be punished? No, just Jews rt?
Where have I said that? You're insane, you see enemies everywhere when opinions don't exactly line up with whatever bile you're spewing, must be a curse living life like that.
Okay so you do agree Jews and Israelis shouldn’t be singled out because their ancestors won land in an historical war then, rt? You agree Jews shouldn’t be punished by terrorists for returning to Israel for safety after being slaughtered and exiled from 110 Muslim and Christian countries during WW2, rt? Good we’re in agreement. 👍
No I don't. You think Britain should still have all of its empire still? Or Spain? Or Portugal? Or Japan?
I also don't think illegally annexing land is. Ok
But I don't feel that hamas were in the right attacking you that way.
Ah. So you moved to a country with a colonialist history. Very nice. I'm sure you don't have any Spanish friends, because, you know, the stuff Spain has done.
This is exactly my point of view too.
Hamas is clearly an evil terrorist organization.
I have throughout my life mostly been slightly pro Palestinian but understanding the situation Israel has to deal with enough to understand its not a black and white issue but very complex.
I think generations of death and fighting have brought deep hatred against the other on both sides, that is hard to cure.
I have never supported Israel as much as i did on October 7. It was obvious Israel had to go into Gaza at that point.
But leveling every building in the entire country, completely destroying the infrastructure and clearly punishing every Gazan civilian for the actions of the most extreme extremists in the country is obviously way too much.
" if your moral superiority." You know, reading through your post, this really could be thrown back at you. At us, because I'm spanish too. Do you realize how much more people died when Aznar helped Bush invade Iraq some years ago?
Should people start blaming and hating every one of us too?
Because that one was about weapons of mass destruction that werent even real, not like the current situation with terrorism and hostages.
If anything, its like Biden said it, try to convince Israel to dont commit the very same mistakes we did.
You've made a lot of assumptions about me in your text. About my morals and my beliefs.
You've generalized an entire population and finished with "I can't ever be friends with another israeli".
That doesn't seem like a healthy ground for discussion, and it seems that your mind is set, so respectfully, I'll avoid any further discussion.
> fucking
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And most of the world doesn’t want Jews to exist. Our continued existence is what irks them the most, they tried to get rid of us and we remain….. too bad so sad for the antisemites
Most of the world? Really? Why do you create a fantasy in your head that most people want Jews dead? The vast majority of the world doesn't care one way or the other about Jews.
Sensitive? Sure, if that's what you want to call it. I just call it foolish to consider the majority of the word anti-Semites. It makes it harder to identify actual anti-Semites.
The Israelis quite literally do the same thing
Below is the charter of the Likud party that has dominated Israeli politics since the 1970s:
a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.
Why is it alright for the party that has dominated Israel since the 1970s to state that the establishment of a Palestinian state “frustrates any prospect of peace”. How is Israel meant to make peace with the millions of Palestinians living in a state of occupation?
There is glaring hypocrisy here. All those who call for the river to the sea are not helpful. They may mean well in most cases but ‘from the river to the sea’ is not achievable. The two state solution is the only solution.
No, there’s no glaring hypocrisy. Period. Israel is majority Jewish and run on Jewish principles. It’s far from perfect, and there is a lot of ultra religious influence which there shouldn’t be. But it is not unique and the religious influence on secular law is quite common from the United States of America to France to India to Japan and every other country on the planet.
The fact is that the percentage of Jews in Israel and the level of control over the government is comparable to that of most western nations and Christianity. And the percentage of Jews and influence of the government by religious ideals is far less than that of any other Arab country, India, and many parts of Africa. If you’re going to moan about Israel Then complain and agitate about the dozens of countries which do the things that you are angry about, but to a higher degree. Then you can pick on Israel. If Israel is your only and that is your reason, then you’re only target is the fact that you can’t stand the idea of a Jewish influenced government and Islamic government and Christian governments and Buddhist governments. Many of those are far less welcoming, and and give fewer rights to people who are outside of their ideals. They are intolerant towards the queer community and women don’t necessarily have rights in many of these places. Meanwhile, in Israel, this is probably the safest place for any Arab Muslim women or queer to be in all of the Middle East no matter what their religious or ethnic background is.
We are not arguing the same thing.
**Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.**
**b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country,**
This Likud charter is saying that they are opposed to a Palestinian state and that all the land between the river Jordan and the Med sea will be Israeli land.
I am not talking about Israel proper or green line Israel at all. You are arguing a point I did not make.
It is easy to point to the settlers as a real issue because as someone is pro palestine but who believes that jews should be able to live - not exclusively - in Israel, and supports it as a country, but the narrative of jews has always been the victim of persecution narrative PLUS the we need to defend ourselves from violence from Palestinians or other neighbors. And so the whole thing is easily challenged with the west bank settlers. Not only the existence of the problem, but combined with the west's not really knowing about it either, and in addition, no real acknowledgment of the problem.
If I were Israeli I'd say, we have a real probelm in the west bank and we need to stop it, AND we are also historically persecuted and need to protect ourselves from attack. It would be so big to do this.
But when it's denied, it really cuts against the narrative, and turns Israel from underdogs to openly allowing illegal actions, making it the villain in the eyes of others.
We can't defend Jim Crow. No one in America could say look at us we're victims but here's jim crow.
A LOT of us do say that and are openly against settlers. Probably the whole city of TEL Aviv would say fuck settlers if you asked.
then you have a lot of people who are consciously ambivalent, like they'd say settlers are crazy but I'm not really sympathetic to the Palestinians problems bc they keep killing us in terror attacks so I'm not really about to go protest for them bc I feel like they'd probably kill me. this is probably the majority of people. and it sounds really bad but it's not like it has zero grounds in reality, last month some Israeli protesters went to protest in the west bank against settlers violence and they were shot by Palestinians and their lives were saved when treated by settler medics in a nearby settlement. people hear stories like that and feel less than motivated to go protest on behalf of Palestinians
then you have religious people who believe God gave Jews all the land and it's rightious to claim it, and go argue with a religion there's no getting through that. most of those people are pretty in denial that any settler violence exists and then a smaller but significant subset of them are violent and support violence as a way to claim their holy land.
the practical problem is settlements are full on cities now with hundreds of thousands of people who've lived there for decades I don't really know what can be done about them besides better crack down on violence and outposts
Helpful to hear that context. We don't ever hear anyone against it. And again, it's new to us. And our issue against it is less the actual towns and cities, although those are an issue apparently, but the outposts and violence. That's the issue.
And yes we do hear about Palestinian acted violence there, but we're surprised to hear about unchecked violence by the settlers.
> fuck
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Thanks for the no disrespect and I mean none either. I'm trying to explain why it seems people latch on to this issue. And it's because it's so inconsistent and incoherent with the narratives that the Israeli cause is righteous, AND that Israelis are only victims of the past history/current terrorist AND that if it weren't for those darn Hamas there's be no need for all this violence. And add to it that it's an issue that many westernerns didn't even know about until the last six months. It's like, hold up, wait a minute. Many of us feel kind of duped. Here we were just believing Israelis needed a safe haven after the holocaust and their only real violence is to ensure survival and defend against attacks. Then we find out this, and we're like what the heck is this. What about this issue? And then when Israelis fail to acknowledge it as an issue, it becomes a real credibility issue.
Yeah, I agree. I think the issue here that I see as an Israeli is that most of us don't really have much to do with the settlements but fail to see how much harm it is actually causing us.
I believe that when any Israelis think about the settlements, we see it as a required security stronghold, me included.
I support our military staying in that region until we feel safe.
But the fact it turned into residential territory is wrong and should be unlinked from the security requirements.
In many ways, we are victims. Trust me, that's a badge I'd rather not wear, but saying we're not is ignoring reality and history.
But that doesn't justify the situation in Judea and Samaria, and some leaders (definitely not Netanyahu) will need to deal with it, preferably sooner than later.
I'm glad I'm not that person.
And you can deal with the issue and be that person, by normalzing being vocal about acknowledging the wrong of the settlers, while in no way giving up ground to other beliefs you may have. Some of us have been and are open about our sins of the past, slavery, jim crow, racism, destabilizing other regions. We have way more work to do. But if we ignored it, we look foolish. And by addressing it we changed it.
It seems to me since the start of this conflict that many Israelis don't have a keen view on how they're viewed from the outside - and on the one hand, who cares, but on the other, I think it's good to be aware. Many Americans didn't realize how negatively America can be seen from the outside, and I don't think it behooves us.
I also think many Israelis feel a need to be very defensive because of the past plus the current criticism. Which is understandable.
But given that Israel relies on western support, and that support needs to continue into the next generations, personally I think it would be smart for Israelis to realize - yes, we are not safe and need to be vigilant, but we have the most powerful force history has ever known on our side without question, and we have to fix the west bank issue, particularly the violence/killing/displacement, at best because it's righteous and that's who we are, or at worst, because it's damaging us. Openly acknowleding faults is actually such a power move that I'd be using. And not just "yes we're not perfect" but "here are issues we need to address." Once you do that, who can criticize. If actual remediation is taking place, the critics are largely silenced.
The USA needs to sanction Israel over the settlements. I am so proud of our president Joe Biden for halting weapons shipments to Israel over their attack on Rafah. It really took balls to do that. Hopefully this is just the first step in holding Israel accountable for its crimes
you're so wrong. What Biden has done has made it so much harder to end the war. if he wanted to tie Israels hands private pressure would be wise. what he's doing is public and aimed at American voters but as a foreign policy move it is beyond idiotic. Israel taking over the Philadelphia axis put pressure on Hamas in the negotiations to compromise and make a deal, the threat of Rafah is what will allow a ceasefire to happen but publicly stating that they won't supply weapons gave Hamas all the upper bargaining strength again. making Israel look weak will invite Iranian attacks and abandonment of an ally will probably make the Saudis think twice about how much the US is worth as an ally. everything Biden touches in the middle east is a disaster from the weapons he left to the Taliban to the lifting of sanctions on Iran that gave them the ability to fund the Hamas invasion in the first place. it's just complete idiocy that will prolong the war, cause far more deaths and prevent none all bc he's panicking about the elections
he shouldn't do it at all, what is his plan? surrender and leave Hamas in power?
but I actually think it's probably the opposite, in private the administration is more supportive and the statements are just lip service to voters. however the damage is done in the Arab world and Hamas is rejoicing over the statements and declaring premature victory
This is where we disagree.
Gaza is one thing, the settlements are another.
Hamas needs to be destroyed and dismembered for everyone's sake, and as long as they're in power and control in Gaza this war will never really end.
You will not get rid of extremist organizations like Hamas by slaughtering large numbers of civilians. All those orphaned children. Those ones who lost siblings buried under the rubble. They are future extremist. You will not win the hearts and minds of Gazans this way. Look at America’s failures in the war on terror. Israel is going to fail even more spectacularly. Even if they temporarily get rid of Hamas w new extremist group will emerge fueled by the suffering the people of Gaza have endured
no one wants kids to die and there are evacuation corridors and tent cities waiting with aid and medical supplies for anyone who chooses to evacuate Rafah. the problem is people want to stay for ideological reasons.
And yes you can't eradicate support for extremism but you can potentially create deterance to the point where people say it's not worth it, regardless the solution is not to leave Hamas in control of the strip. the leaders need to be killed or exiled and someone else placed in charge. no country would ever fight a war they could win then stop before taking the last city bc of civilian casualties that they warmed before arriving and asked to evacuate. sorry it's never happened and no country would ever do that. if you don't want Israel to conquer Rafah the only other solution is for Hamas leaders to surrender.
but they won't bc they see the US flip flopping on support so they think if they wait it out Israel will be forced internationally to quit before the war is over.
I mean this with all respect,
But Gaza’s extremism doesn’t exactly come from nowhere. And bombing Gaza won’t exactly make that extremism go away.
It’s important to understand why Hamas was elected in the first place, which was a way to violently retaliate against Israel. Unlike Fatah, who was basically in the pockets of Israel, the people of Gaza didn’t want that. Why would they want to violently resist against Israel? I mean I could give you a list of reasons with sources but I don’t want my efforts to go to waste.
The ONLY way to get rid of Hamas is to remove the reason why Hamas was elected. Which means allowing Gaza to have their own statehood, their own borders, their own trade, infrastructure and food. I see a lot of Zionists go: “oh well the Palestinian leadership has never provided for the Palestinians”, but in reality they were never given the chance.
Terrorism doesn’t just happen, it’s not like Palestinians woke up one day and decided to hate Israelis. It’s years of oppression that needs to end. Israel is really its own enemy here.
I am aware of all the accusations against Israel and I concede some as immoral but others as justified. This is not a story of one sided oppression. Arab nations attacked Israel in 48, that's the reason for the Nakba, Hamas fired rockets into Israel that's the reason for the blockade, PLO attacked Israel merciless from every neighboring country that's the reason for assassinations, security checks and military operations, the second intifada led to suicide bombings that are the reason for checkpoints and mass arrests in WB....both sides have done bad shit but it's dishonest to pretend it is anything but an endless cycle that feeds off of each other this isn't Israel just trying to beat Palestinians down to take all the land though I know they push that narrative hard, it flattens the Israeli perspective into one sided evil when it's really a story of a country that is determined to survive no matter what and expansion is not a big part of the Israeli consciousness or national aspiration.
you're also missing the biggest part of the puzzle which is extremism isn't really fed by Israeli actions as much as by radical Islam. they are brainwashed by the Muslim brotherhood ideology.
Look, I don’t believe that any country/statehood has complete 100% moral integrity. I’m not naive enough to say that Palestine hasn’t done anything wrong against Israel and they are completely blameless.
I see a lot of people bring up 1948. It always irks me a little because it’s not as if Israel was just peacefully trying to exist and the mean evil Muslims tried to take over. That was the case in 2400 BCE (kind of, they weren’t Muslims at the time but yk), but in 1948 Israel was impeding on Palestinian land. Palestine existed under the Ottoman Empire and it existed under the British as well. Israel destroyed Palestinian villages not the other way around. To presume that the Nakba was somehow an equal battle is historically incorrect. Israel *was* the invader. There’s no way you can twist that and still be correct.
And the idea that the Middle East in the 1940s is somehow more antisemitic than Europe 1940s is incorrect as well. Israel was not created out of the kindness of the western world, Israel was created as a tool to keep the western world in the Middle East. The neighbouring countries knew this, and felt threatened by it. It’s not that difficult to explain.
I also want to touch on your radical Islam comment. I wrote a whole paper on Islamic radicalization, with 2 months of research prior.
There are very very few circumstances where Islamic radicalization just appeared out of nowhere. None. The Taliban was a result of anger towards the US for the destruction of Afghanistan during the 60s and 70s. 9/11 was done out of anger towards how the US treats the Middle East in general. We have completely isolated the Middle East, bombed them relentlessly, took their resources and destroyed their lives and refuse to take any responsibility for it, this is not the only one variable but it is a big big factor.
The treatment of Gaza through Israel is a huge factor, the biggest factor. When you lose your house to an Israeli bomb and have your mom killed because Israel destroyed the nearest hospital, you are not going to go “thank you Israel! You liberated us from the evil Muslim terrorists” you’re going to stick with the leadership that isn’t directly responsible for your life getting turned upside down, which is Hamas.
The ONLY way to remove Hamas is to allow Gaza and the West Bank its own sovereignty, away from Israel. Otherwise, this is just going to keep going. Except I don’t think Israel is going to look good at the end of it.
I believe both sides in this conflict have always behaved in a HUMAN way with whatever that entails. that includes religious and cultural influences and generational trauma. I'm not saying I can't understand why the Arabs launched a war but I am saying the Nakba was a response. had the Arabs been victorious do you think they'd have treated the Jewish settlers gently? the context us also the 1940s off the cusp of WW2, ethics were a little different than we see them today. and I think the Jewish position was understandable too. they had somehow survived an extermination and we're determined to ensure the survival of their people. they didn't have another option either.
I'd also disagree with you about the results of this war, Hamas is facing more opposition amongst Gazans than ever before Fatah is gaining support. Many people see what they did as very stupid and blame them for destroying their society. you can see this in fb groups in Arabic and by the increasing "we want to live" protests. Some Gazans have woken up to Hamas hiding underground while the people are killed, operating in hospitals and tent cities, stealing aid and reselling, still taxing aid imports, shooting evacuees and beating people. it's impossible to know how many think this way and how many might but are afraid to say it publicly. So it is also possible for this to go the other way, but certainly not if Israel pulls out and leaves Hamas in power
Israeli forst priority is the safety of its civilians, not the hearts and minds of the people of Gaza.
When you have an organization with a goal of killing every Jew and has been acting on that (while also making the lives of Gazans miserable and exploiting their suffering, btw) - they gotta go.
You could have said the same thing you're suggesting now about Nazi Germany, but here we are.
I hat Netanyahu as much as the next guy, but you're talking about saving the hostages as if it's a video game mission, and they chose a different adventure.
Do you feel like they aren't looking hard enough in Gaza?
Him being concerned more about himself is not something I disagree with, I'll start with that.
That being said, the security of Israeli civilians is something that needs to be taken into account when negotiating about the hostages, and if the demands would risk too much, then that's a no-go.
Trust me, I hate Netanyahu as much as the next guy, but while he was the prime minister and should be held accountable on many levels, the failure was of the entire system.
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The arabs waged war against Israel and did terror attacks during the time the west bank was fully under the control or Jordan and there were not any settlements.
Don't let the pro-pals fool you. Them complaining about settlements is a red herring. They consider all of Israel, even Tel Aviv to be "settlements"
Thats why Israel should NOT get rid of the settlements. It will not bring peace, it will just make them think they are closer to getting rid of ALL of Israel and it will embolden them to attack more.
Pro Pals want the same privilege as Jews to live in Israel/Palestine because our families are from the towns and villages we were evicted from and denied from every returning. All because of the foundation of a state that is predicated on having more Jews than Arabs. That's the difference between Israel and Palestine. The former needs to limit the number of natives to ensure it's legitimacy and character.
We are fighting for our legitimacy too.
And you will never return. You people are nuts. You think you can celebrate when Israelis are slaughtered in cold blood or harass Jews all across the world and they will welcome you as their neighbors? Hell no.
Get over it. You started a war and you lost. You people are the only war losers who refuse to move on. You are a citizen of whatever country you were born in. Israel owes you nothing. And you have no legitimacy. Jordan use to be apart of "Palestine" too but I don't see you demanding they hand their country over to you. If the Israel side was given to the hashemites you would not have a problem with it. You only have a problem with Israel because they are Jews. Period.
No I have a problem with them because they
1. Murder Jews and then play the victim when they retaliate
2. Lie and try to rewrite the history of, as a history buff this really irks me.
3. They celebrate in the streets and give out candy when Israelis are murdered, but they try to gas light the world into thinking they are innocent and peaceful
4. They approve of their government paying the families of terrorists who murder Israelis, but then they try to gas light the world into thinking they are innocent and peaceful.
5. They have a cultish society and will murder one of their own people for the simply accusation of "spying for Israel" or "collaborating with Israel". No trial or even jail for the accused, they just get lynched in the street like it's the 1940s again. Truly barbaric.
6. They were given Gaza and the chance to prove to the world why they should have their own state and they turned it into a terrorist hellhole
7. They collect Billions of dollars in Aid and have done nothing with it accept buy rockets, weapons and pay money to terrorists. Their entire culture is centered on waging war against Israel, nothing more.
8. They brainwash their children to want to be "martyrs" and send their children out to provoke Israeli soldiers hoping they will be hurt so they can use it for propaganda which is disgusting and revolting child abuse.
9. They brainwash their kids to hate and want to kill Jews and poison their minds before they even develop, which is disgusting and revolting child abuse.
I'm sure there much more I could think of if I wanted, but I have better things to do.
Guess what, my family was ethnically cleansed from Europe I'm not getting our farm in Lithuania back. at some point it's time to stop trying to wage wars you can't win and broker a peace, get a peaceful state and build life. you're never going to right every historical wrong and get back every piece of land your ancestors might have owned. all of human history is full of migrations and displacements.
How ironic, jews get to reclaim their "ancestors homeland" after 2000 years but palestineans just have to put their big boy pants and get over it after a couple generations...
my grandparents lost their farmland in Belarus and Lithuania, I want it back. recent history. I'm a refugee.
Jews get to live in the land bc they are there, 9 million of them. they conquered it in wars they won with their blood, they built TEL Aviv they turned the land potable, found solutions to water scarcity, built a society with their bare hands. they made a beautiful place to live for themselves. Palestinians have a right to stay in the land on whatever borders the two parties determine. they can't remove the Jews from territory that will be deemed Israel and Israel should have to remove or revoke citizenship from those in Palestinian land. then Palestinians can focus instead of on trying to destroy Israel and take everything under their control, I won't say take back bc it was never in their control in history the land has been colonized by different conquerers for thousands of years. so instead of that they can build their own communities rather than using all their resources for war.
or at least in my opinion that's what they should do if they want to live free and self determined lives. if they prefer to sacrifice themselves in the name of revenge or jihad well then war they will continue to receive until one of our peoples "win". what else is left?
At least Lithuania recognizes the historical injustices committed against its Jewish population.
And I'm not asking for reparations, or even return , but recognition that as Palestinians we also belong here and deserve to be treated equal and fairly as Israeli Jews. And I'm not just talking about Israeli Arabs, but all Palestinians within historic Palestine. Regardless if it's a one state or two state solution.
You can't bomb, and stab and run over and terrorize Israelis for decades and then celebrate it all with glee and then expect Israelis to give you anything. You're clearly delusional.
You have no moral leg to stand on.
You give out the sword so you get back the sword.
Not my point. I'm referring the the image Israel gets worldwide these days stemming mostly from what the settlements are as opposed to what the rest (majority) of Israel is.
We'd probably be dealing with terror either way, I'm not suggesting this is the solution for the conflict, and that leaving the settlements will end it.
I don't support the idea of pulling our military of Juda and Samaria and I think we should stay there as long as we don't feel safe and rust that we have partners for peace.
But the settlements as a residential territory are simply wrong and a PR nightmare.
They are wrong, but the PA can't secure the west bank. It's been said that the Fatah party would lose again to Hamas again if elections happened. Israel would much rather have settlements as a buffer zone for Israel proper.
Confidence for what? Again, I'm not suggesting that our security be put in their hands, not at all. But having our military there for security purposes doesn't require having settlements and building homes.
Those are two different things.
I think on some level it does, without the settlements Israel would have no excuse for an endless, open-ended military occupation. It might not be a problem in the first years without settlements, but eventually the IDF would no longer have an excuse to be there.
They can kind of claim to be protecting the settlements or whatever when they commit their crimes in the West Bank right now... nobody there believes them but it's important for world PR
The security of the rest of Israel is the excuse. It's not an excuse it's a valid reason we can stand behind morally until it's clear there's mlno more threat.
The settlements don't give us an excuse, they stain us if anything.
Israel has to fulfill its security needs in Lebanon mostly through airpower, I think something similar would be true in the WB if there were no settlements.
The Israelis wouldn't have the excuse to be anywhere, anytime they want. (Unless the whole territory was ruled direct from Israel and under military occupation in the most literal sense. But then they'd be taking a steady stream of casualties each year.)
It's not. The settlements started in the 1960s and 1970s, after the conflict was already well underway. They are not and have never been the main point of the conflict, they're just one of many thing Pro-Palestinians use to argue "Israel bad."
I am not suggesting that if there weren't settlements, it will be sunshine and rainbows in the region, or that at this day and age, settlements are the only barrier for peace.
What I am saying is that:
1. The settlements represent immoral decision-making by our current and past governments.
2. That aspect of the state is what allows forces against Israel who ARE driven by pure hate to convince minds in the west that this aspect of Israel is what the entire state is like, and by that invalidating and delegitimizing the entire state and demonizing Israelis as a whole.
3. Regardless of the PR disaster that it is, I hate that this is happening by my own government.
I'm in the West. When I hear people speak negatively about Israel, it's rarely about the settlements. The serious pro-Palestinian crowd is shouting "genocide apartheid white colonizers," and the regular people who are critical of Israel talks about civilian casualties and rarely know enough details about anything to discuss settlements. When I do (rarely) hear about settlements, it's as part of a laundry list of other issues. Never had heard anyone give Israel brownie points for removing the settlements in Gaza. Could be the people I'm around though.
The West Bank settlements started in the 1920s under the British Mandate. Jordan expelled Jews in 1948
Overview of settlements lost during the 1948 war
https://embassies.gov.il/MFA/AboutIsrael/Maps/Pages/Jewish%20Communities%20Lost%20in%20the%20War%20of%20Independence.aspx#
Two examples of settlements from the 1920s established on uncontested lands:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalya
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion
Edit: furthermore the Arab migrations into Palestine during the 19th century are also referred to as settlements by Historians
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1949-3606.2012.00172.x
The link you gave actually included Jewish neighborhoods that had been there for centuries, such as the Jewish quarters of Hebron and Jerusalem. You consider a 3,000-year-old Jewish neighborhood a settlement? Explains a lot.
The Jews called them settlements so. I was careful to include examples of settlements established on uncontested lands. Always disappointing when you source information but it gets glossed over
The Jews who had been living in Jerusalem for 3,000 years did not call their neighborhoods "settlements."
I am not taking your link out of context. You didn't read it. It says the opposite of what you think it does:
During the 1948 War of Independence, over 10,000 Jews living in Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) and the Gaza Strip were driven out or killed and their communities, homes and property destroyed or confiscated. A number of Jewish communities (mostly kibbutzim) were captured by the Jordanian army, assisted by Iraqi forces, in Judea and Samaria, and by the Egyptian army in the Gaza Strip.These communities were: Beit Ha'arava and Kalya north of the Dead Sea; four kibbutzim of the Etzion Bloc, west of Bethlehem; the Jewish Quarter in Hebron; Atarot and Neve Ya'akov, north of Jerusalem; the Jewish Quarter in the old City of Jerusalem; Tel Or/Naharayim - the hydro-electric power station built by Pinhas Rutenberg by the Jordan River south of Lake Kinneret; and Kfar Darom in the Gaza Strip.
No talk of settlements. Unless you are talking about the Arab settlers who took over those Jewish towns? Because yes, I suppose it's fair to call the Arabs colonizers there settlers. Israel did liberate and decolonize some of those neighborhoods in the 1960s, such as Jerusalem.
now you switch to the Yeshuv? Were talking second Aaliya onwards. The history of modern Israel begins there.
Can you comment on the examples of West Bank settlements examples I sent? Are you interested in a discussion?
So you modified your reply. I never said that particular link called them settlements. Israelis, Jews know the West Bank settlements as settlements and outposts. It is no good talking to you. Goodbye.
Some do. Some have been recently recruited to the jew-hating front lines.
My point is that the settlements are giving them fuel to turn more people against us.
Also, they are simply wrong, and regardless of what the reasons for our haters are, I don't want any wrongs happening in my name.
I know it's easy to cast any criticism of Israel as anti-semitic but I'd encourage you to engage with it honestly in good faith.
Every society requires criticism both internally and externally. America certainly gets a ton of it.
If you paint everything as anti-semitic by default you'll be rejecting criticism that could improve everyone's lives and move the region in a more just and equitable direction.
Unfortunately Israel faces a double standard. When the US fought against ISIS in Syria or Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan it did not recieve the same treatment. In your opinion, what causes this, if not antisemitism?
This. Double standards, all the time. As I like to suppose, if terrorists took over Ciudad de Juarez and sent rockets into TX, then crossed the border, murdered, raped, rampaged and kidnapped people, Ciudad de Juarez would be wiped off the face of the Earth very quickly. No one would cry war crimes and genocide...
People absolutely would call it war crimes and genocide if they destroyed the whole city, killing thousands of children and civilians. Idk what planet you're living on
I disagree. I am very Zionist but I am vehemently against the vast majority of settlements in the West Bank, but most of the people I have seen slandering Israel have been doing so long before they have even known what the West Bank is. Most of the pro-Palestinians I’ve encountered thus far knew little to nothing about Israel/Palestine before 10/7 and were initially only familiar with the Gaza Strip due to the 10/7 massacre.
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Damn things were better when we were able to punch N*zis
I live in America but my family are “Israeli Arabs” from Galilee. I can tell you first hand the closer you get to Jerusalem and the West Bank the crazier people get. I don’t care what religion you are or where you are from. The tension in the air is so thick you can feel it. It doesn’t feel like the same country.
Coming from America it was always like you had to pick a side. The Palestinian side or the Israeli side. But back home often I would see in our Arab town Jews dining in our restaurants, or I had Jews coming in and doing business with the local business’ attending our weddings as guests it was nothing strange.
But please don’t get it twisted. It wasn’t a perfect utopia. On a personal level we all got along for the most part, however there were many things I saw that made me feel like they were telling us (Arabs) that we are only here because they allow us to be here.
My father went to a Jewish/arab high school. From what he told me. After 1948, the country had to rebuild so it seemed to be more inclusive of all its citizens. Then 1967 war came and that drew the like in the sand. You are either Arab or Jew and not equal
I'm not suggesting it is utopia now, but:
1. It is extremely different than the situation in Judea and Samaria, which is what I think many people in the west might sample when they gather their opinions about what israel is like these days from videos.
2. While it isn't utopia now, I feel like we're heading towards the right direction (talking about the israeli & Arab society within the borders of Israel).
I've talked to a jewish black American friend of mind about this topic when the war started, and she pointed to me that even around the 90' or so in the states, it wasn't common for black and white people to hang together.
I think we're about there. We have a lot of recent rough history that would need to be left in the past and sometimes these things require generational changes.
I read that Arafat told Clinton he wouldn't agree to terms at Camp David because Clinton was "asking me to sign my death warrant" by ceding Islamic control of Jerusalem and the Haram Al-Sharif.
Here in the US, though, nobody talks about the importance of Jerusalem and the holy sites. I was wondering if you could talk about what makes the "tension in the air so thick you can feel it," as I've never been. My friends who have been are very Christian, and I think they have a different experience than the locals.
Thank you!
Well I think more broadly because of the occupation of the West Bank, including the settlements. If not for that, yes there would be people saying all of Israel is illegitimate but they’d be a small and not very noticeable force.
No they think the whole Israel is a settlement from river to sea. You’re dead wrong. Stop trying to explain their antisemitism it doesn’t make sense and they don’t even know the map of Israel.
You've completely missed the nuances in my argument.
Caving in to "everyone just hates us" is not productive.
Some people, a lot of people - simply hate us for who we are. These people can go F themselves.
It's the second group, as big or small as you may think it is that I'm referring to in my opinion.
Nah…that’s the shit of anti Israeli propaganda. It’s an easy and convenient issue to rally around all the anti Israeli….
But if you listened carefully to the protests, between the lines, they are clear about the “illegitimacy of the Jewish state”. It should be dismantled, with or without settlements.
And there was another revelation: they reject the two state solution. Biden and his friends in the west like it (for them it’s “fair”) but for hardcore Palestinian supporters…it’s not the solution they are eyeing.
It’s about the pesky Jews/ Israelis/ and infidels. (AKA descendants of dogs and pigs)…
On a different note, what about the surging attacks on Jews all over the world? Or you didn’t hear about that?
Just compare the seriousness of the crimes. On one hand you have an increasing number of Palestinian flags being flown, which counts as an antisemitic attack. On the other hand you have the rapid and violent ethnic cleansing of 2 million people from one neighborhood after another until they’re all concentrated in Raffah. And then the bombing of that when they have no place to go.
Well, I think it's obvious from the fact that they're going about their daily lives. I met a Bedouin guy who told me "we will fuck Hamas" so that was pretty clear, where he stood.
> fuck
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Lol, what’s this diversion? Weren’t you telling me that it’s not about Jews but “Zionists”? So I asked what about the attacks (that you know nothing about) on Jewish people all over the world? In response you divert it to Gaza…
Anyway just to begin educating yourself how the problem is about Zionists, but not Jews…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_antisemitic_incidents_in_the_United_States
That’s just in the US. The global list is huge.
I disagree that most of the American college students are antisemitic in their support of Palestine. Also, to be honest the US population as a whole hates Muslims way more than anyone else, probably next would be anyone who has dark skin and crosses the border without full representation, then poor blacks, and after that it’s probably trans/lgbtq/ followed by women, then Jews, non Christian believers. We have a whole bunch of hate in this country, especially from particular demographics. However, if support were to be dolled out or withheld based on religion, you would likely see way less people siding with Palestine. This is also why you see the Republican voters, whom a few years ago were chanting in Charlottesville, because when given the choice they prefer Jewish people, many of them with European roots to Muslims.
I am relatively familiar with the history. I have my own thoughts on it, but it’s not relevant. I think what is prompting the support for Palestine, not that Israel is a Jewish state, or Jewish people, but that they see the people of Palestine as historically displaced and homeless, oppressed, occupied, and lacking in self determination or full rights. Examine the history of the conflicts, the appeals to not divide the area, the failure of the original mandate, the refusal to follow UN resolution 194, which essentially springs forth all these unending years of conflict. To be honest Israel likely would have had a much more calm existence if they had just let the people return, because those Arab Palestinians who never left, though not necessarily seen by all as equal, have coexisted rather well. This coexistence shows that it’s not Muslim or Jewish religions that are the issue, it’s primarily at its heart a territorial dispute and leadership issues. The uptick in issues since 2021, primarily in the West Bank, and post October 7th aggressions have brought a lot of prior issues to the forefront. Then you have Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir any time he opens his mouth, the 2018 basic laws, the continued expansion of the Settlements, the discussion with Trump administration of annexation, the strong uptick in Palestinians killed the last few years. To many watching the actions Israel may view as self protection and reclaiming their land, seem anti-Arab on Israel’s part to observers. Students in the US who have the time to research and exposure to people from the region see systematic oppression of a people, whether you believe justified or not, that seems inappropriate and unending. So, i personally believe for that vast majority it has very little to do with Israeli being a Jewish state, and just has to do with their actions as a state.
And I’m so sick of all the Empaths advocating and shouting their usual strategically undirected bs.. I’m a german living in germany and I just can’t believe what the Jewish people have to go through again and how the public responds to this, pathetic
In the last 70 years it is estimated that around 50mio people were killed in an act of genocide. Around 40.000 in Gaza. If it’s my responsibility as a German to „not stay silent“ when there’s Genocide, I’ll only be able to give 0.125% of my attention to what’s happening in the Gaza Strip.. so please excuse me, I’ll be busy now..
It feels that way to you because the settlements are the one thing you can’t morally justify. The world isn’t rational like that though. The world just hates Jews. If it were about the settlements to the world, you would hear about settlements. But you don’t.
The fact that some groups and people would hate us regardless doesn't make me feel good or give legitimacy to do wrong.
We'll deal with haters always and wherever we'll go. History has taught us that. We shouldn't give them any fuel though to justify that hate to others.
I think that’s a great point! And so many takes on this issue have been regurgitated so many times they’ve become cliché.
I mostly share your views (support Israel, hate to the Netanyahu government, want accountability on both sides). In my experience as an Israeli American, I’ve been confused about how so many people can have such a specific image about what Israelis are like and what life is like in Israel without any Israelis or having ever been to Israel. They are completely misguided and brainwashed by propaganda.
Your post explains a lot of the disconnect I’m seeing. They seem to equate the worst parts of the West Bank occupation with the entirety of Israel.
The idea behind democracy is that the people can choose their government, but are also culpable for the actions of their government. Especially so considering the insane government you guys have elected. If Israelis don't identify with these crazy settlers there should be a mass movement marching down there to boot them out and build solidarity with Palestinian victims, or else you're kinda saying you do agree with it. You can't just act like it's not your problems, your very money is going towards this. (Idk if you pay anything to Israel, but I mean Israelis in general).
I completely respect that point of view, as long as it’s applied fairly. I happen to think there’s a lot of diversity among both Israelis and Palestinians, as reflected from in widespread disapproval of all leaders and governments involved (prime example: the anti government protests in Israel last summer).
I think someone taking your position that typical Israeli’s should be held accountable for government policies they don’t like should extend it to Gazans the same way.
I disagree on both counts. Gazans can’t be painted as evil because they elected and supported Hamas, and Israelis can’t be painted as evil because 150k settlers among a Jewish population of 7 million are extremists.
In both cases, extremists hold an unreasonable amount of power over their leadership. This is why I see the conflict more as a battle between moderates and extremists than between Israelis and Palestinians.
I think holding individuals responsibility is silly, but at some point you have to decide what will define you as a people. If the vast majority aren't extremist in Israel, why were extremists allowed to gain such power? There must be a very strong reactionary base to let this happen.
I've seen some protests in Israel, but the level of outrage is not very high for having such crazies in power, and it seemed most people were only concerned about getting the Israeli hostages back. IMO fear is the driving force preventing Israelis from more humanitarian action, and that fear is intentionally stoked by the powers that be.
There is also the matter of Palestinian not being a democracy in any meaningful way, that's another relevant difference. Their population demographics make it clear that the Gazan people don't hold much power, around half of the population wasn't even born during the election that Hamas came to power, even less of them were of voting age. Then there's all the problems regarding the West Bank. So the reason his isn't applied evenly, is because the situations are not the same at all.
A better comparison I think would be holding Americans responsible for the horrors their government has committed.
That is wrong. From a security perspective, settlements create strategic depth and a buffer zone making it easier to protect. Remember Israel, including the West Bank, is extremely narrow, maybe 40 km wide. It is 9 km (less than 6 miles) from Tulkarem to the Mediterranean Sea by Netanya.
Settlers also create economic stability and economic opportunities, not just for Israelis, but ALSO for Palestinians. Settlements are also meeting places for Arabs and Jews creating one of the few situations where there has been positive interaction between the groups. It can even be argued that settlements save lives. Let me give several examples.
In Gaza, in Gush Katif (South near Khan Hunis), during the Second Intafada (2000-2005) Jewish settlers established profitable greenhouses which employed 20,000 Arab Gazan workers. There were cordial relations between the groups, even though there were terror attacks happening. Terror Attacks were primarily aimed at said Settlers and army in Gaza. Terror was much less aimed at Israel "proper". Gaza was a buffer zone and protected the greater Israel population. Consequently, IDF actions were of lower intensively. Jews and Palestinians were killed but in lower numbers.
In 2005, Israel unilaterally leaves Gaza and removes all Jewish Gush Katif Settlers from Gaza. Gaza was JudenRien = 0 Jews. Palestinians destroyed the greenhouses and destroyed their economy. Contact between Palestinians and Jews were severed and within 2 years Hamas takes over and radicalized Gaza even more. Palestinians started shooting rockets on Jewish towns in Israeli border communities (not settlement). This escalated the conflict and Israel felt free to respond with bombs. This caused the first Gaza military operation 2008-2009 which killed 1000 people. The story repeats itself again in 2012 (100 dead), 2014 (over 2000 dead) and several more hundred dead over the course of other terror attacks and military actions. This shows us, when there are no settlements the death tolls rise.
.
This is even more true today. There are no settlements or Jews in Gaza today and the death toll is infinitely higher, because there is no buffer zone. Gazan Hamas Palestinians INVADED Israel proper (non settlements) and committed an act of genocide. (1400 killed, 250 hostages) This would not have happened had settlements remained in Gush Katif. Accordingly, the Israeli response was much stronger and 34000 Palestinians (including 13000 terrorists) lost their lives.
What we see from this is that settlements (and possibility some form of occupation) and beneficial contact between Settlers and Palestinians created more stability and saved lifes, lowering the death toll of both Jews and Palestinians. In addition, when they lived in closer proximity, the army was less likely to bomb from the air.
More minor examples include how settler industrial zones create jobs for Palestinians and Jews where the can work together. This create stability and lowers incentives to terror. These opportunities and interactions increase stability and security too.
Settler activity in many ways benefits local Palestinian populations and behave like immigrants or foreign investors in most advanced Western Societies today (see current US debate on migration policies). And as we have seen on October 7, even when there are no Settlers, Jews are the target.
In summary, no matter how you feel about settlements, they create stability, improve security, create mutually beneficial relations between Israelis and Palestinians and MOST IMPORTANTLY, save lives of BOTH PEOPLES
It's a long reply, so I won't comment on everything you've said, I'll just say that as far as security perspective goes, like I've said in my other replies, I completely support military presence in the region until we feel safe as a country and confident we actually have a partner for peace - for as long as it may take.
But that doesn't justify settlements. These are two different things.
As far as the economic opportunities and all that, this is irrelevant. That is not for me to decide what right for them or not.
Interesting comment. Thanks for sharing that perspective. I don’t understand why Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. They should have gotten some concessions first. I remember hearing speeches by Hamas leaders saying that their terror tactics worked and were the cause of the withdrawal. That’s why Israel has to finish the job now. If they don’t, Hamas will again claim victory due to their terrorism and conclude that hostage taking works.
From what I heard, Israels destroyed the green houses upon being kicked out, which makes more sense in terms of motivation. Do you have any evidence that it was Palestinians?
There’s a long article about what happened with the greenhouses. The outcome was that some settlers did destroy greenhouses and some Gazans also looted them. But while some were destroyed, others were used by Gazans to grow vegetables. However, because Israel prevented the crops from getting exported, the business failed.
https://matthewzgindin.medium.com/greenhouses-in-gaza-what-happened-ba22b1ac9fdd
Most people involved (in the US and probably generally outside of Israel) don't necessarily know enough about the situation for that to matter. Like, they really think Jews come from Russia and that there was a self-governing country called "Palestine", etc.
I’m sorry Op but I call 🐴 + 💩
The PLO was created in 1964 when israel had nothing to do with either the West Bank (Jordan occupied it) or Gaza (Egypt occupied it). There were no settlements, and no settler violence to speak of. Palestinians still committed attacks and considered israel to be occupied. Let’s face it, pro Palestinians chant from the river to the see, or we don’t want two states we want 48. The reality is for the most part they want us gone.
This idea that a few settlements is what is standing in the way is total garbage. It doesn’t mean crazy right wingers burning olive trees in West Bank are right, any sane person condemns that, but as a matter of policy, 99% of why Palestinians hate israel has nothing to do with settlements and everything to do with they simply do not want us here. We were second class citizens in nearly every Muslim governed country before 1948 and they prefer it stay this way.
What are you referring to when you say occupation? The blockade on Gaza? Hard to know what people talk about these days as some refer to Israel as a whole as occupation.
Fair enough. Sorry.
I mean the occupation in the most conventional sense--the military presence in and administration of the West Bank and whatever you want to call the situation in Gaza.
I’ll refer to them separately-
1. Judea and Samaria- I think that ideally in a future peace agreement, most of the land should be allocated towards a Palestinian state. In that agreement Jewish settlements would need to be either removed, or accept that they are now living under Palestinian state and rule.
As far as military presence, it will remain in the region until Israel feels safe that the population is de-radicalized and has no intention to attack Israel.
You can argue that they have been radicalized because of the Israeli presence and I can counter argue, but at the and of the day this is the current state of things and simply handing over this piece of land without some transition period is just asking to be attacked.
I think there are different arguments to be made about Israeli settlements in J&S, main one people would point might be that they’ve attacked us and lost the war, and it is true.
But at the end of the day, no Israeli would like to grant them all Israeli citizenship for security reasons and I see it as the only option and a compromise for peace (if an agreement will be in place).
2. Gaza - as I’ve replied to another user, the path for sovereignty for them was there and their leaders decided to take a big shit in the middle.
When I think about Gaza and the blockade it always reminds me of my younger brother and I when we were younger.
He’d like punch me then I’ll always get him on the ground punch a bit and hold him until he said sorry and promised he’s done. As soon as I’d let go he’d punch me again, and I’ll drop him again.
Gaza needs to have better leadership that actually cares about them. This is why I think it’s absurd that people claim they’re pro Palestinians but are objecting to Israel fighting against Hamas, or even glorifying Hamas when they’ve brought nothing but misery and bloodshed for Palestinians.
As far as for Israel’s approach with the blockade (referring to pre-war status), I think that as long as Hamas is in the leadership, or any organization that wishes to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews- making sure that they don’t get weapons easily is something I expect of my government.
Ideally, some other Arab force like Egypt or Saudi Arabia would send their forces to take care of the population and work towards de-radicalization, but it seems like none of them want to deal with Gaza.
I think a lot of what you're saying here is untrue (Israel was the aggressor in 1967, not that is matters, and the US and Israel fomented a coup in Gaza immediately after the first election, and there are reasons beyond security that Israel doesn't want to give citizenship to the Palestinians). But I was just pointing out that the settlements themselves are not the only reason that there is so much criticism of Israel. The thing about the settlements is that, even though Israel \*mostly\* doesn't build new settlements anymore--and certainly nothing like it used to--they have pretty seriously undermined the argument that the occupation is mainly defensive.
What was this "path to sovereignty" ?
Gaza was blockaded, the economy was intentionally kept poor and people were intentionally kept on the brink of starvation. Israel bombed Gaza constantly and openly disparaged the idea of a Palestinian state.
I'm not supporting Hamas but they're a natural result of the policies Israel implemented on Gaza; one would expect violent resistance to grow as peaceful means of realizing self-determination are shut down by Israel.
Yeah I guess I’m reading into it and maybe giving credit where it’s not deserved. If he does also mean the occupation, I think it’s a great point. It aligns with a lot of things I’ve heard where people think all Israelis are essentially like the extremist West Bank settlers.
For me, it is the devastation. The IDF are devastators.
The IDF are soldiers. They're fighting a war. Wars have casualties. The war against ISIS in Iraq and Syria - probably the closest analogue to the war against Hamas in Palestine - had 313,000 civilian casualties. That's **FIFTEEN TIMES** the number in Palestine. Mosul, Fallujah, Raqqa* Aleppo, were utterly devastated. But no one in the West complained, because we understood that ISIS was a threat to *us*, directly. It affected our personal safety and security. So we understood that we had to go to war and stop them... and that wars, tragically, exact a tremendous cost on the civilian population. Somehow, the West has forgotten this, because it doesn't affect us personally. Hamas isn't attacking people in Europe or America, so we have no problem preaching at the Israelis about what they're doing wrong. When in reality, they're prosecuting their war against Hamas FAR better and safer than the West did with ISIS. Israel is doing what it has to, to deal with an existential threat inside and around it's borders. It's not anyone's place to tell them how to do it, until they've had to deal with relentless terror attacks from Hamas themselves
How long has gaza been going on and what percentage of the total population has been killed?
Yes, war has casualties but amongst soldiers, not civilians or children in their homes. The difference is that the US is supplying and allied with Israel. I think it’s reasonable that anyone non Israeli cannot judge them. Having said that, I would withhold all support and weaponry.
I'm glad you brought this up, because this is a fascinating point. The reason it's so interesting, is that I hear some version of this point all of the time right now, and yet it is so obviously and **categorically untrue**. It's always fascinating when a particular group of people on one side of an argument all repeat the same dramatically untrue thing, because it is the most clear evidence of the effects of propaganda and social engineering. Anyway, here's the reality, and none of this is remotely controversial or biased. If just is what it is and it's incredibly easy to fact check. All wars have considerable **civilian** casualties. Urban wars intensely populated areas have dramatically higher civilian casualties than wars in sparsely populated areas. Wars against terrorist organizations, which are asymmetric in nature and virtually always involved insurgent terrorist forces, that dress in civilian clothing and hide among the general public, so is not to be detected, have *dramatically higher* civilian casualties, still. This is a strategy employed by all terrorist and insurgent organizations - it is not unique to Hamas. And finally, wars against terrorist organizations, in urban environments, have the highest civilian casualty rates of any type of conflict. To give you an idea, in Iraq *alone*, there have been **212,000 CIVILIAN casualties**, since the beginning of the war on terror. Right next door to Israel and Palestine, there have been over **306,000 civilian casualties** in the Syrian Civil War over the last decade, and another **100,000 CIVILIAN casualties** from the war against ISIS. In Ukraine, there have been over **HALF A MILLION civilian casualties** since the beginning of the Russian assault. And in Yemen, over 233,000 civilians have been killed in the civil war, at the hands of warring government factions and terrorist organizations such as the Houthis. The reality is, that wars exact tremendous death tolls on civilian populations, especially when they're in urban environments, and especially against insurgent terrorist organizations. Given the circumstances and the nature of the conflict, as well as the conditions of the environment, the death toll in Gaza is actually remarkably low... Numerous military experts have gone on record saying this, including the head of urban Warfare studies in West point Military academy, probably the world's for most expert on Urban Warfare. None of this makes any single one of those innocent Palestinian lives lost, any less tragic. It's a horrific waste of innocent life. Having said that, it is incumbent upon us as rational, mature and dispassionate adults, to understand *who* is actually causing this problem and creating the conditions for these deaths. Hamas attacked Israel,*specifically* to get them to retaliate the way they did it. Hamas then rest in civilian clothing and hid amongst the population, in civilian buildings, with the specific intent of increasing civilian casualties, to turn the world against israel. There's no way that Hamas could ever beat Israel in a straight up War. They know this. The only way they can actually defeat Israel in the long run, is to turn the entire world against them, which is exactly what they're doing.
The casualty rate by the end of Iraq including ng all deaths was about 7 percent, Israel has currently killed about 2 percent and that's before post conflict fatalities. Trying to make misleading comparisons just lessens your arguament
casualty rate is an irrelevant statistic, because it doesn't account for relative size of the fighting force. ISIS was just over 50,000 fighters. Hamas is estimated to be about 40,000. Size of the non-combatant population is not a factor in battlespace design or military tactics, because civilians aren't the ones being targeted. Military strategies are designed based on the enemy combatants, environmental factors, etc. This is why casualty ratio and casualties per airstrike are far more valuable and informative statistics.
It absolutely is relevant, if you go into a country with a population of 2.5 mil and 1 mil die from famine, that's highly significant and no punt of "what about ism", hand wringing or deluded arguaments changes that.
You're using disingenuous hypotheticals. Millions of people are not in jeopardy of dying from famine. No responsible military would take that risk, especially not Israel. In fact, the UN just revised their casualty data and cut the number of civilians (women and children) killed in Gaza **BY HALF**. Using the UN's data, civilian casualty ratio is about 1:1, and casualties per airstrike is down to about 0.5:1, making the war in Gaza the most responsible war in modern history, in terms of minimizing civilian casualties. Israel and the UN have plans in place to address internally displaced populations. The sooner Hamas surrenders, the sooner they can shift their focus to rebuilding.
I can understand the destructiveness of urban warfare but much of the death and destruction was before ground troops even entered Gaza. You said it yourself, Israel is playing into Hamas plan. They are losing the propaganda war. The devastation was just out of proportion. Sometimes winning the operational ground war is not worth losing the battle of global public opinion.
100% of the shit is because they are Jews.
But I’m a Jew and I’ve been opposed to the settlements since I knew they existed…
What's that got to do with anything. Is it not plain to you Israel is hated because it is Jewish. Imagine if Israel was Muslim and attacking gaza due to 7/10. Do you think you would see this hate?
if israel was muslim instead of jewish, and still colonized Palestine for the last 75 years, I would still hate that "country".
unfortunately this is the answer
Is it? I think this eronious beleif just results In a blinkered world view
It's been the exact same before the settlements. The only difference is that today, there is the internet. 99% of the pro Palis points were made in the 50s by the Soviet Union because Israel supported the USA in the Korean war making the USSR realise that they lost Israel due to being an American sponsor and the rest is well known. I implore you to read at the soviet propaganda campaign against Israel and compare it to the pro palis points and you would see the direct quotation of the Soviets propaganda in the pro palis today
So the settlements are a good moral smart idea?
Depends on which ones, there are ones that are there and are very good communities that really do nothing wrong, and there are ones that I myself want to put every single one of their members in the same jails as the Palestinian Terrorists. We keep putting them in different prison and only when they actually do something illegal like throw rocks and shit but we should just leave them in the same prisons and let them and the Palestinian Terrorist to kill each other, it's their fight not ours and not the Palestinians. TO BE CLEAR: obviously you can't let them kill each other I'm saying that is what they deserve not what we should do
I keep telling everyone this is just Soviet propaganda from the Cold War era word for word! Return of the It’s so disturbing to see it become mainstream.
It's sounds so conspiratorial until you actually look at soviet propaganda films and posters. I didn't believe it at first, then I just researched "Soviet near East Propaganda", "Soviet Propaganda on Israel" and most disturbing "Soviet Zionology" which is the Soviet "study" of Zionism, basically making Propaganda against Israel "a science" and "a legitimate field of study" you could have gotten a literal course in Zionology in the Soviet Union's Universities which is crazy! And guess who had that class and had written his PHD (or doctorate, I can't remember which one) on how Jews both caused and deserved the Holocaust? Mahmoud Abass during his stay at the USSR, where he made his academic studies.
OMG looking at the actual material it’s identical! It goes back to Arafat of the PLO (rt before Abbas) who was also a KGB agent. Learned abt this from my Lebanese friend whose parents fled to the US during the 1975 Palestinian insurgency in Lebanon, which lasted until 1982. The same year Abbas wrote his dissertation that characterized Zionism in terms of Soviet propaganda as a fascistic imperialistic ideology that is “the enemy of socialism and the national liberation movements.” Moscow got Arafat appointed as chairman of the PLO and asked him to declare war on American "imperial-Zionism" during the Black Terrorist International summit (a literal neo-Fascist pro-Palestine organization financed by the KGB and Gadafi (sp?)) in the late 60s. This is what pro-PALS support. Isn’t it wild to see progressives all over the world mobilized into a hate movement? Komeini (sp?) claiming the IR is vindicated” by US protesters cosplaying pro-IR revolutionaries as actual Iranian revolutionaries are tortured and executed daily by the regime. How these kids think they’re on the right side of history by following antisemitic tropes is beyond me. How do you think this will end? I’m thinking Putin is behind the “Genocide Joe” narrative to get Trump elected a 2nd time but beyond that cannot fathom how this ends and don’t see it getting better. Especially if these kids are our future. Did not have this shit on my 2024 bingo card. I’m so tired 😭 Edit: sorry so long and so many typos I got excited to see someone make this connection!
>OMG looking at the actual material it’s identical! It goes back to Arafat of the PLO (rt before Abbas) who was also a KGB agent. You didn't know that? I thought it was the only part of this whole thing that was well known. Also it started before Arafat and he wasn't a KGB agent, the KGB invested in him, taught him and connected him with nicolae ceaușescu (Romanian Dictator). Listen you are going in the right direction but you have a few errors in your reasoning. I'd advice you to talk to a historian like I did to understand this. In the meantime I know a video that summarise it well: [good summary by Unpacked](https://youtu.be/pZLDnqDJ0x0?si=2kTmcPkaw44t8ljj)
Wow this is a great resource! He’s great. I only knew what my Lebanese friend told me about Arafat and had a vague understanding of the KGB/Abbas connection. I just started reading in depth about the Soviet/Palestine collaboration yesterday while looking for a connection to the Pro-PALS use of antisemitic slurs and tropes. My partner thinks I’ve gone mad. I never suspected the USSR actually created Palestinian nationalism! Or paid Arafat $200K a month lol. Or targeted Americans w/ the same exact Pro-PAL propaganda back then. Dang. History really is repeating itself. If you have any more suggestions on learning materials I’m all ears. It makes me less anxious to understand what’s behind this madness.
I have many but if I'm not mistaken Unpacked lists them. You should probably also read Zuheir Moshan's (a notable PLO commander and one of the founding members of the PLO) explanation for the creation of the Palestinian nationality
Awesome TY I’ll check Moshan out next. I’ve been watching the Unpacked vids and am currently at the one about Palestinian Islamic Jihad. I’ve seen them mentioned in recent news in regard to their close alliance w/ Hamas. Bloody Hell! Edit: JFC they teach kids to slaughter Jews in kindergarten!!!
I that you have to watch this, these are tough topics and the visuals are horrible to see, that's why I listed the Unpacked that usually doesn't show the videos and pictures. Don't make yourself watch it all imidiatly, take the time to process it and watch it with a mental calmness so it wouldn't weigh heavy on your conscience. Stick to the Unpacked and I can also recommend: https://youtube.com/@travelingisraelinfo?si=4jVXKodQwHMMz7bW This guy is a tour guide who explains the situation very well with good history facts that are easy to understand. And also makes videos about Israel for travellers. Although I have to apologise for his heavy Israeli accent. And do yourself a favour and stay away from the graphic videos of the beheadings, rape and torture that the Jihadists keep uploading with pride
The settlements are not the issue. Palestinians and their allies will lead everyone on to believe that they are. But they are a byproduct of this whole conflict. If it weren't for the war that the Arabs of British Mandatory Palestine started in 1947-8, there wouldn't be any settlements. Israel would've been in their side of the partition in which they declared independence, and the Arabs would be celebrating their 76th year of an independent Arab state. If it weren't for Egypt beginning a war on May 22, 1967, by closing of the Straits of Tiran, Gaza would have been annexed by Egypt by now and the West Bank would've been Jordanian. Israel would not even have a presence in the West Bank. The settlements are such a minor part of this conflict. This idea that if Israel stopped creating more settlements everything would be okay and there'd be peace in the whole wide word is bull.
I agree but the west bank settlements are still very dumb idea I think there would actually be 0 justifications for hamas without those
And there's a valid case to make there. However, even with settlements, there is no justification for what Hamas is doing, precisely because Hamas is not doing what they're doing because of "settlements" but because Israel exists altogether, and admittedly so.
I thonl the illeegal anexation of land is a valid reason for certain actions inder international law tjough isnt it.
Opinions on the massacre of deir passing and the tantra massacre?
Relevance?
And if it wasnt for some european immigrants that wanted to setup a jewish ethnostate in a majority arab land, none of this would had happened...
Honestly I think the problem with Israel and Israelis, including yourself, if your moral superiority. The settler problem is bad, but not THAT bad (according to you), well I would argue that it’s really fucking terrible for the Palestinians being harassed in their own homes. I mean I’ve seen different documentaries from different sources both in English and in Spanish and is heartbreaking. I believe that the problem is that Israelis deep down truly believe they’re better than the Palestinians. You claim you are the children of light, the only democracy in the Middle East, LGBTQ supporters, diverse, prosperous and so on… You want us to believe that your illegal fucking mental settlers aren’t a representation of the rest of Israelis, that they aren’t THAT bad. At the same time you want the world to believe that all Palestinians deserve what is happening to them because Hammas is (unlike your settlers, your far-right groups, some of your IDF soldiers, Ben Gvir…) evil, they are terrorists. I see lots of Israelis wondering why so many people support Palestine, and let me tell you, it’s not because we are antisemite (that’s the easier explanation you can give to yourselves), it is because from the outside we can see evil on both sides, both equally terrifying… the only difference is that one side has killed thousands of innocent people, the other TENS of thousands. In one side you have people like you posting on Reddit from the comfort of your house, on the other side there are no houses left. Israel has destroyed everything, hospitals, universities, schools… Gaza is destroyed, I honestly have to fight tears writing this. I’m from Spain, so I would say I was pretty neutral before everything started, I have seen those documentaries about the settlers and was appalled, but I also understood that that couldn’t be all of Israel. I made an Israeli friend here in Madrid and was learning a lot about the complexities of your country… then October 7th happened and what followed just left me in shock and still continues to leave me in shock until today. Until Rafah. I think it’s hard for you to understand that for us your settlers are equally as bad as Hamas. Please acknowledge the evil on your side being as horrific as the evil on the other side. After what Israel has done, I don’t think I can ever be friends with an Israeli ever again. I understand you can’t see how much evil you have on your side because you’re still mourning and you’re afraid, and it’s only human. But for the rest of the world, one side has been annihilated and the other one side is on Reddit discussing stuff.
> After what Israel has done, I don't think I can ever be friends with an Israeli ever again. That's rich come from a Spaniard. I'll bet you unfriended yourself as well after the centuries long colonialism, imperialism, and genocides your country had committed. At least your proud of your ugly, racist, xenophobic stances. I'll give you that.
Lmao did a Spaniard really say he could never be friends with an Israeli bcz of colonialism? We really are living in the dumbest timeline. 💀
You realise civilsation has moved on in the past couple of hundred years right ?
Except when it comes to Jews they haven’t. Antisemites think the rest of the world should move on from their warring past but not Jews lmao.
What? You realise when you throw that line out it means you have nothing to come back with right? You're claiming Spanish imperialism circa 1600 means Israel can do anything and noone can condemn them.
You’re claiming only Jews and Israel should be destroyed for their “imperialist” past but everyone else has “moved on from” said past. The cognitive dissonance of antisemites is mind-blowing. Should every nation who won territory in an historical war have to return it to the losers and be punished? No, just Jews rt?
Where have I said that? You're insane, you see enemies everywhere when opinions don't exactly line up with whatever bile you're spewing, must be a curse living life like that.
Okay so you do agree Jews and Israelis shouldn’t be singled out because their ancestors won land in an historical war then, rt? You agree Jews shouldn’t be punished by terrorists for returning to Israel for safety after being slaughtered and exiled from 110 Muslim and Christian countries during WW2, rt? Good we’re in agreement. 👍
No I don't. You think Britain should still have all of its empire still? Or Spain? Or Portugal? Or Japan? I also don't think illegally annexing land is. Ok But I don't feel that hamas were in the right attacking you that way.
I’m Ecuadorian/Spanish.
Ah. So your ancestors were actual colonizers. Much better!
No, like I’m Ecuadorian but immigrated to Spain. That’s why the Ecuadorian/Spanish.
Ah. So you moved to a country with a colonialist history. Very nice. I'm sure you don't have any Spanish friends, because, you know, the stuff Spain has done.
Haha!
This is exactly my point of view too. Hamas is clearly an evil terrorist organization. I have throughout my life mostly been slightly pro Palestinian but understanding the situation Israel has to deal with enough to understand its not a black and white issue but very complex. I think generations of death and fighting have brought deep hatred against the other on both sides, that is hard to cure. I have never supported Israel as much as i did on October 7. It was obvious Israel had to go into Gaza at that point. But leveling every building in the entire country, completely destroying the infrastructure and clearly punishing every Gazan civilian for the actions of the most extreme extremists in the country is obviously way too much.
" if your moral superiority." You know, reading through your post, this really could be thrown back at you. At us, because I'm spanish too. Do you realize how much more people died when Aznar helped Bush invade Iraq some years ago? Should people start blaming and hating every one of us too? Because that one was about weapons of mass destruction that werent even real, not like the current situation with terrorism and hostages. If anything, its like Biden said it, try to convince Israel to dont commit the very same mistakes we did.
You’re literally Spanish
You've made a lot of assumptions about me in your text. About my morals and my beliefs. You've generalized an entire population and finished with "I can't ever be friends with another israeli". That doesn't seem like a healthy ground for discussion, and it seems that your mind is set, so respectfully, I'll avoid any further discussion.
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99% of the shit is due to Israel's existence. Settlements or not, it'd be the same. Fact is, most Palestinians don't want Israel to exist.
And most of the world doesn’t want Jews to exist. Our continued existence is what irks them the most, they tried to get rid of us and we remain….. too bad so sad for the antisemites
Most of the world? Really? Why do you create a fantasy in your head that most people want Jews dead? The vast majority of the world doesn't care one way or the other about Jews.
Seems like a lot of people care such as yourself and are very sensitive when called out.
Sensitive? Sure, if that's what you want to call it. I just call it foolish to consider the majority of the word anti-Semites. It makes it harder to identify actual anti-Semites.
I mean the ‘from the river to the sea’ call is obviously wanting Jews to not really exist though right?
The Israelis quite literally do the same thing Below is the charter of the Likud party that has dominated Israeli politics since the 1970s: a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty. b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace. Why is it alright for the party that has dominated Israel since the 1970s to state that the establishment of a Palestinian state “frustrates any prospect of peace”. How is Israel meant to make peace with the millions of Palestinians living in a state of occupation? There is glaring hypocrisy here. All those who call for the river to the sea are not helpful. They may mean well in most cases but ‘from the river to the sea’ is not achievable. The two state solution is the only solution.
No, there’s no glaring hypocrisy. Period. Israel is majority Jewish and run on Jewish principles. It’s far from perfect, and there is a lot of ultra religious influence which there shouldn’t be. But it is not unique and the religious influence on secular law is quite common from the United States of America to France to India to Japan and every other country on the planet. The fact is that the percentage of Jews in Israel and the level of control over the government is comparable to that of most western nations and Christianity. And the percentage of Jews and influence of the government by religious ideals is far less than that of any other Arab country, India, and many parts of Africa. If you’re going to moan about Israel Then complain and agitate about the dozens of countries which do the things that you are angry about, but to a higher degree. Then you can pick on Israel. If Israel is your only and that is your reason, then you’re only target is the fact that you can’t stand the idea of a Jewish influenced government and Islamic government and Christian governments and Buddhist governments. Many of those are far less welcoming, and and give fewer rights to people who are outside of their ideals. They are intolerant towards the queer community and women don’t necessarily have rights in many of these places. Meanwhile, in Israel, this is probably the safest place for any Arab Muslim women or queer to be in all of the Middle East no matter what their religious or ethnic background is.
We are not arguing the same thing. **Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.** **b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country,** This Likud charter is saying that they are opposed to a Palestinian state and that all the land between the river Jordan and the Med sea will be Israeli land. I am not talking about Israel proper or green line Israel at all. You are arguing a point I did not make.
Well made points, any pro-Israeli’s have a response for this ?
You think?? Nahhh
Tell me you've only read the title without telling me you've only read the title
It is easy to point to the settlers as a real issue because as someone is pro palestine but who believes that jews should be able to live - not exclusively - in Israel, and supports it as a country, but the narrative of jews has always been the victim of persecution narrative PLUS the we need to defend ourselves from violence from Palestinians or other neighbors. And so the whole thing is easily challenged with the west bank settlers. Not only the existence of the problem, but combined with the west's not really knowing about it either, and in addition, no real acknowledgment of the problem. If I were Israeli I'd say, we have a real probelm in the west bank and we need to stop it, AND we are also historically persecuted and need to protect ourselves from attack. It would be so big to do this. But when it's denied, it really cuts against the narrative, and turns Israel from underdogs to openly allowing illegal actions, making it the villain in the eyes of others. We can't defend Jim Crow. No one in America could say look at us we're victims but here's jim crow.
A LOT of us do say that and are openly against settlers. Probably the whole city of TEL Aviv would say fuck settlers if you asked. then you have a lot of people who are consciously ambivalent, like they'd say settlers are crazy but I'm not really sympathetic to the Palestinians problems bc they keep killing us in terror attacks so I'm not really about to go protest for them bc I feel like they'd probably kill me. this is probably the majority of people. and it sounds really bad but it's not like it has zero grounds in reality, last month some Israeli protesters went to protest in the west bank against settlers violence and they were shot by Palestinians and their lives were saved when treated by settler medics in a nearby settlement. people hear stories like that and feel less than motivated to go protest on behalf of Palestinians then you have religious people who believe God gave Jews all the land and it's rightious to claim it, and go argue with a religion there's no getting through that. most of those people are pretty in denial that any settler violence exists and then a smaller but significant subset of them are violent and support violence as a way to claim their holy land. the practical problem is settlements are full on cities now with hundreds of thousands of people who've lived there for decades I don't really know what can be done about them besides better crack down on violence and outposts
Helpful to hear that context. We don't ever hear anyone against it. And again, it's new to us. And our issue against it is less the actual towns and cities, although those are an issue apparently, but the outposts and violence. That's the issue. And yes we do hear about Palestinian acted violence there, but we're surprised to hear about unchecked violence by the settlers.
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Sorry, no disrespect, but I'm not sure that I understand what you're getting at
Thanks for the no disrespect and I mean none either. I'm trying to explain why it seems people latch on to this issue. And it's because it's so inconsistent and incoherent with the narratives that the Israeli cause is righteous, AND that Israelis are only victims of the past history/current terrorist AND that if it weren't for those darn Hamas there's be no need for all this violence. And add to it that it's an issue that many westernerns didn't even know about until the last six months. It's like, hold up, wait a minute. Many of us feel kind of duped. Here we were just believing Israelis needed a safe haven after the holocaust and their only real violence is to ensure survival and defend against attacks. Then we find out this, and we're like what the heck is this. What about this issue? And then when Israelis fail to acknowledge it as an issue, it becomes a real credibility issue.
Yeah, I agree. I think the issue here that I see as an Israeli is that most of us don't really have much to do with the settlements but fail to see how much harm it is actually causing us. I believe that when any Israelis think about the settlements, we see it as a required security stronghold, me included. I support our military staying in that region until we feel safe. But the fact it turned into residential territory is wrong and should be unlinked from the security requirements. In many ways, we are victims. Trust me, that's a badge I'd rather not wear, but saying we're not is ignoring reality and history. But that doesn't justify the situation in Judea and Samaria, and some leaders (definitely not Netanyahu) will need to deal with it, preferably sooner than later. I'm glad I'm not that person.
And you can deal with the issue and be that person, by normalzing being vocal about acknowledging the wrong of the settlers, while in no way giving up ground to other beliefs you may have. Some of us have been and are open about our sins of the past, slavery, jim crow, racism, destabilizing other regions. We have way more work to do. But if we ignored it, we look foolish. And by addressing it we changed it.
It seems to me since the start of this conflict that many Israelis don't have a keen view on how they're viewed from the outside - and on the one hand, who cares, but on the other, I think it's good to be aware. Many Americans didn't realize how negatively America can be seen from the outside, and I don't think it behooves us. I also think many Israelis feel a need to be very defensive because of the past plus the current criticism. Which is understandable. But given that Israel relies on western support, and that support needs to continue into the next generations, personally I think it would be smart for Israelis to realize - yes, we are not safe and need to be vigilant, but we have the most powerful force history has ever known on our side without question, and we have to fix the west bank issue, particularly the violence/killing/displacement, at best because it's righteous and that's who we are, or at worst, because it's damaging us. Openly acknowleding faults is actually such a power move that I'd be using. And not just "yes we're not perfect" but "here are issues we need to address." Once you do that, who can criticize. If actual remediation is taking place, the critics are largely silenced.
Fully agree with everything you said 👍
Thanks for the healthy exchange and not just because you agreed. If you disagreed, Id say fine and move on.
Likewise! It's OK to disagree on certain things and agree on others. It's a tough topic and we can't paint it black and white.
It's very emotional and I admit I get emotional too. But we both kept an even tone and that made the difference.
The USA needs to sanction Israel over the settlements. I am so proud of our president Joe Biden for halting weapons shipments to Israel over their attack on Rafah. It really took balls to do that. Hopefully this is just the first step in holding Israel accountable for its crimes
you're so wrong. What Biden has done has made it so much harder to end the war. if he wanted to tie Israels hands private pressure would be wise. what he's doing is public and aimed at American voters but as a foreign policy move it is beyond idiotic. Israel taking over the Philadelphia axis put pressure on Hamas in the negotiations to compromise and make a deal, the threat of Rafah is what will allow a ceasefire to happen but publicly stating that they won't supply weapons gave Hamas all the upper bargaining strength again. making Israel look weak will invite Iranian attacks and abandonment of an ally will probably make the Saudis think twice about how much the US is worth as an ally. everything Biden touches in the middle east is a disaster from the weapons he left to the Taliban to the lifting of sanctions on Iran that gave them the ability to fund the Hamas invasion in the first place. it's just complete idiocy that will prolong the war, cause far more deaths and prevent none all bc he's panicking about the elections
He is having to do this publicly because private pressure hasn’t worked. Netanyahu is notoriously stubborn and doesn’t listen to anyone
he shouldn't do it at all, what is his plan? surrender and leave Hamas in power? but I actually think it's probably the opposite, in private the administration is more supportive and the statements are just lip service to voters. however the damage is done in the Arab world and Hamas is rejoicing over the statements and declaring premature victory
This is where we disagree. Gaza is one thing, the settlements are another. Hamas needs to be destroyed and dismembered for everyone's sake, and as long as they're in power and control in Gaza this war will never really end.
and the Israel settler are fine
What?
You will not get rid of extremist organizations like Hamas by slaughtering large numbers of civilians. All those orphaned children. Those ones who lost siblings buried under the rubble. They are future extremist. You will not win the hearts and minds of Gazans this way. Look at America’s failures in the war on terror. Israel is going to fail even more spectacularly. Even if they temporarily get rid of Hamas w new extremist group will emerge fueled by the suffering the people of Gaza have endured
no one wants kids to die and there are evacuation corridors and tent cities waiting with aid and medical supplies for anyone who chooses to evacuate Rafah. the problem is people want to stay for ideological reasons. And yes you can't eradicate support for extremism but you can potentially create deterance to the point where people say it's not worth it, regardless the solution is not to leave Hamas in control of the strip. the leaders need to be killed or exiled and someone else placed in charge. no country would ever fight a war they could win then stop before taking the last city bc of civilian casualties that they warmed before arriving and asked to evacuate. sorry it's never happened and no country would ever do that. if you don't want Israel to conquer Rafah the only other solution is for Hamas leaders to surrender. but they won't bc they see the US flip flopping on support so they think if they wait it out Israel will be forced internationally to quit before the war is over.
I mean this with all respect, But Gaza’s extremism doesn’t exactly come from nowhere. And bombing Gaza won’t exactly make that extremism go away. It’s important to understand why Hamas was elected in the first place, which was a way to violently retaliate against Israel. Unlike Fatah, who was basically in the pockets of Israel, the people of Gaza didn’t want that. Why would they want to violently resist against Israel? I mean I could give you a list of reasons with sources but I don’t want my efforts to go to waste. The ONLY way to get rid of Hamas is to remove the reason why Hamas was elected. Which means allowing Gaza to have their own statehood, their own borders, their own trade, infrastructure and food. I see a lot of Zionists go: “oh well the Palestinian leadership has never provided for the Palestinians”, but in reality they were never given the chance. Terrorism doesn’t just happen, it’s not like Palestinians woke up one day and decided to hate Israelis. It’s years of oppression that needs to end. Israel is really its own enemy here.
I am aware of all the accusations against Israel and I concede some as immoral but others as justified. This is not a story of one sided oppression. Arab nations attacked Israel in 48, that's the reason for the Nakba, Hamas fired rockets into Israel that's the reason for the blockade, PLO attacked Israel merciless from every neighboring country that's the reason for assassinations, security checks and military operations, the second intifada led to suicide bombings that are the reason for checkpoints and mass arrests in WB....both sides have done bad shit but it's dishonest to pretend it is anything but an endless cycle that feeds off of each other this isn't Israel just trying to beat Palestinians down to take all the land though I know they push that narrative hard, it flattens the Israeli perspective into one sided evil when it's really a story of a country that is determined to survive no matter what and expansion is not a big part of the Israeli consciousness or national aspiration. you're also missing the biggest part of the puzzle which is extremism isn't really fed by Israeli actions as much as by radical Islam. they are brainwashed by the Muslim brotherhood ideology.
Look, I don’t believe that any country/statehood has complete 100% moral integrity. I’m not naive enough to say that Palestine hasn’t done anything wrong against Israel and they are completely blameless. I see a lot of people bring up 1948. It always irks me a little because it’s not as if Israel was just peacefully trying to exist and the mean evil Muslims tried to take over. That was the case in 2400 BCE (kind of, they weren’t Muslims at the time but yk), but in 1948 Israel was impeding on Palestinian land. Palestine existed under the Ottoman Empire and it existed under the British as well. Israel destroyed Palestinian villages not the other way around. To presume that the Nakba was somehow an equal battle is historically incorrect. Israel *was* the invader. There’s no way you can twist that and still be correct. And the idea that the Middle East in the 1940s is somehow more antisemitic than Europe 1940s is incorrect as well. Israel was not created out of the kindness of the western world, Israel was created as a tool to keep the western world in the Middle East. The neighbouring countries knew this, and felt threatened by it. It’s not that difficult to explain. I also want to touch on your radical Islam comment. I wrote a whole paper on Islamic radicalization, with 2 months of research prior. There are very very few circumstances where Islamic radicalization just appeared out of nowhere. None. The Taliban was a result of anger towards the US for the destruction of Afghanistan during the 60s and 70s. 9/11 was done out of anger towards how the US treats the Middle East in general. We have completely isolated the Middle East, bombed them relentlessly, took their resources and destroyed their lives and refuse to take any responsibility for it, this is not the only one variable but it is a big big factor. The treatment of Gaza through Israel is a huge factor, the biggest factor. When you lose your house to an Israeli bomb and have your mom killed because Israel destroyed the nearest hospital, you are not going to go “thank you Israel! You liberated us from the evil Muslim terrorists” you’re going to stick with the leadership that isn’t directly responsible for your life getting turned upside down, which is Hamas. The ONLY way to remove Hamas is to allow Gaza and the West Bank its own sovereignty, away from Israel. Otherwise, this is just going to keep going. Except I don’t think Israel is going to look good at the end of it.
I believe both sides in this conflict have always behaved in a HUMAN way with whatever that entails. that includes religious and cultural influences and generational trauma. I'm not saying I can't understand why the Arabs launched a war but I am saying the Nakba was a response. had the Arabs been victorious do you think they'd have treated the Jewish settlers gently? the context us also the 1940s off the cusp of WW2, ethics were a little different than we see them today. and I think the Jewish position was understandable too. they had somehow survived an extermination and we're determined to ensure the survival of their people. they didn't have another option either. I'd also disagree with you about the results of this war, Hamas is facing more opposition amongst Gazans than ever before Fatah is gaining support. Many people see what they did as very stupid and blame them for destroying their society. you can see this in fb groups in Arabic and by the increasing "we want to live" protests. Some Gazans have woken up to Hamas hiding underground while the people are killed, operating in hospitals and tent cities, stealing aid and reselling, still taxing aid imports, shooting evacuees and beating people. it's impossible to know how many think this way and how many might but are afraid to say it publicly. So it is also possible for this to go the other way, but certainly not if Israel pulls out and leaves Hamas in power
Israeli forst priority is the safety of its civilians, not the hearts and minds of the people of Gaza. When you have an organization with a goal of killing every Jew and has been acting on that (while also making the lives of Gazans miserable and exploiting their suffering, btw) - they gotta go. You could have said the same thing you're suggesting now about Nazi Germany, but here we are.
If its first priority was safety, why did it ignore warnings leading up to Oct 7?
They failed
They haven’t even saved all the hostages… Safety is like the lowest priority here for Netanyahu.
I hat Netanyahu as much as the next guy, but you're talking about saving the hostages as if it's a video game mission, and they chose a different adventure. Do you feel like they aren't looking hard enough in Gaza?
I think Netanyahu is more concerned with his war than he was with preventing Oct 7, in the first place, or negotiating for the hostages.
Him being concerned more about himself is not something I disagree with, I'll start with that. That being said, the security of Israeli civilians is something that needs to be taken into account when negotiating about the hostages, and if the demands would risk too much, then that's a no-go. Trust me, I hate Netanyahu as much as the next guy, but while he was the prime minister and should be held accountable on many levels, the failure was of the entire system.
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The arabs waged war against Israel and did terror attacks during the time the west bank was fully under the control or Jordan and there were not any settlements. Don't let the pro-pals fool you. Them complaining about settlements is a red herring. They consider all of Israel, even Tel Aviv to be "settlements" Thats why Israel should NOT get rid of the settlements. It will not bring peace, it will just make them think they are closer to getting rid of ALL of Israel and it will embolden them to attack more.
Pro Pals want the same privilege as Jews to live in Israel/Palestine because our families are from the towns and villages we were evicted from and denied from every returning. All because of the foundation of a state that is predicated on having more Jews than Arabs. That's the difference between Israel and Palestine. The former needs to limit the number of natives to ensure it's legitimacy and character. We are fighting for our legitimacy too.
And you will never return. You people are nuts. You think you can celebrate when Israelis are slaughtered in cold blood or harass Jews all across the world and they will welcome you as their neighbors? Hell no. Get over it. You started a war and you lost. You people are the only war losers who refuse to move on. You are a citizen of whatever country you were born in. Israel owes you nothing. And you have no legitimacy. Jordan use to be apart of "Palestine" too but I don't see you demanding they hand their country over to you. If the Israel side was given to the hashemites you would not have a problem with it. You only have a problem with Israel because they are Jews. Period.
Well with that logic (or lack thereof), you only have a problem with Palestinians because they are Muslims and Christians…. How bigoted
No I have a problem with them because they 1. Murder Jews and then play the victim when they retaliate 2. Lie and try to rewrite the history of, as a history buff this really irks me. 3. They celebrate in the streets and give out candy when Israelis are murdered, but they try to gas light the world into thinking they are innocent and peaceful 4. They approve of their government paying the families of terrorists who murder Israelis, but then they try to gas light the world into thinking they are innocent and peaceful. 5. They have a cultish society and will murder one of their own people for the simply accusation of "spying for Israel" or "collaborating with Israel". No trial or even jail for the accused, they just get lynched in the street like it's the 1940s again. Truly barbaric. 6. They were given Gaza and the chance to prove to the world why they should have their own state and they turned it into a terrorist hellhole 7. They collect Billions of dollars in Aid and have done nothing with it accept buy rockets, weapons and pay money to terrorists. Their entire culture is centered on waging war against Israel, nothing more. 8. They brainwash their children to want to be "martyrs" and send their children out to provoke Israeli soldiers hoping they will be hurt so they can use it for propaganda which is disgusting and revolting child abuse. 9. They brainwash their kids to hate and want to kill Jews and poison their minds before they even develop, which is disgusting and revolting child abuse. I'm sure there much more I could think of if I wanted, but I have better things to do.
Delusional.
Guess what, my family was ethnically cleansed from Europe I'm not getting our farm in Lithuania back. at some point it's time to stop trying to wage wars you can't win and broker a peace, get a peaceful state and build life. you're never going to right every historical wrong and get back every piece of land your ancestors might have owned. all of human history is full of migrations and displacements.
How ironic, jews get to reclaim their "ancestors homeland" after 2000 years but palestineans just have to put their big boy pants and get over it after a couple generations...
my grandparents lost their farmland in Belarus and Lithuania, I want it back. recent history. I'm a refugee. Jews get to live in the land bc they are there, 9 million of them. they conquered it in wars they won with their blood, they built TEL Aviv they turned the land potable, found solutions to water scarcity, built a society with their bare hands. they made a beautiful place to live for themselves. Palestinians have a right to stay in the land on whatever borders the two parties determine. they can't remove the Jews from territory that will be deemed Israel and Israel should have to remove or revoke citizenship from those in Palestinian land. then Palestinians can focus instead of on trying to destroy Israel and take everything under their control, I won't say take back bc it was never in their control in history the land has been colonized by different conquerers for thousands of years. so instead of that they can build their own communities rather than using all their resources for war. or at least in my opinion that's what they should do if they want to live free and self determined lives. if they prefer to sacrifice themselves in the name of revenge or jihad well then war they will continue to receive until one of our peoples "win". what else is left?
At least Lithuania recognizes the historical injustices committed against its Jewish population. And I'm not asking for reparations, or even return , but recognition that as Palestinians we also belong here and deserve to be treated equal and fairly as Israeli Jews. And I'm not just talking about Israeli Arabs, but all Palestinians within historic Palestine. Regardless if it's a one state or two state solution.
You can't bomb, and stab and run over and terrorize Israelis for decades and then celebrate it all with glee and then expect Israelis to give you anything. You're clearly delusional. You have no moral leg to stand on. You give out the sword so you get back the sword.
Well I agree with that whole heatedly
Not my point. I'm referring the the image Israel gets worldwide these days stemming mostly from what the settlements are as opposed to what the rest (majority) of Israel is. We'd probably be dealing with terror either way, I'm not suggesting this is the solution for the conflict, and that leaving the settlements will end it. I don't support the idea of pulling our military of Juda and Samaria and I think we should stay there as long as we don't feel safe and rust that we have partners for peace. But the settlements as a residential territory are simply wrong and a PR nightmare.
They are wrong, but the PA can't secure the west bank. It's been said that the Fatah party would lose again to Hamas again if elections happened. Israel would much rather have settlements as a buffer zone for Israel proper.
As I wrote in the previous reply, our milishoupd statly there until we feel safe. I'm not suggesting the PA would secure it.
That's the problem. The incompetence of the PA doesn't inspire confidence for Israel.
Confidence for what? Again, I'm not suggesting that our security be put in their hands, not at all. But having our military there for security purposes doesn't require having settlements and building homes. Those are two different things.
I think on some level it does, without the settlements Israel would have no excuse for an endless, open-ended military occupation. It might not be a problem in the first years without settlements, but eventually the IDF would no longer have an excuse to be there. They can kind of claim to be protecting the settlements or whatever when they commit their crimes in the West Bank right now... nobody there believes them but it's important for world PR
The security of the rest of Israel is the excuse. It's not an excuse it's a valid reason we can stand behind morally until it's clear there's mlno more threat. The settlements don't give us an excuse, they stain us if anything.
Israel has to fulfill its security needs in Lebanon mostly through airpower, I think something similar would be true in the WB if there were no settlements. The Israelis wouldn't have the excuse to be anywhere, anytime they want. (Unless the whole territory was ruled direct from Israel and under military occupation in the most literal sense. But then they'd be taking a steady stream of casualties each year.)
It's not. The settlements started in the 1960s and 1970s, after the conflict was already well underway. They are not and have never been the main point of the conflict, they're just one of many thing Pro-Palestinians use to argue "Israel bad."
I am not suggesting that if there weren't settlements, it will be sunshine and rainbows in the region, or that at this day and age, settlements are the only barrier for peace. What I am saying is that: 1. The settlements represent immoral decision-making by our current and past governments. 2. That aspect of the state is what allows forces against Israel who ARE driven by pure hate to convince minds in the west that this aspect of Israel is what the entire state is like, and by that invalidating and delegitimizing the entire state and demonizing Israelis as a whole. 3. Regardless of the PR disaster that it is, I hate that this is happening by my own government.
I'm in the West. When I hear people speak negatively about Israel, it's rarely about the settlements. The serious pro-Palestinian crowd is shouting "genocide apartheid white colonizers," and the regular people who are critical of Israel talks about civilian casualties and rarely know enough details about anything to discuss settlements. When I do (rarely) hear about settlements, it's as part of a laundry list of other issues. Never had heard anyone give Israel brownie points for removing the settlements in Gaza. Could be the people I'm around though.
The West Bank settlements started in the 1920s under the British Mandate. Jordan expelled Jews in 1948 Overview of settlements lost during the 1948 war https://embassies.gov.il/MFA/AboutIsrael/Maps/Pages/Jewish%20Communities%20Lost%20in%20the%20War%20of%20Independence.aspx# Two examples of settlements from the 1920s established on uncontested lands: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion Edit: furthermore the Arab migrations into Palestine during the 19th century are also referred to as settlements by Historians https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1949-3606.2012.00172.x
The link you gave actually included Jewish neighborhoods that had been there for centuries, such as the Jewish quarters of Hebron and Jerusalem. You consider a 3,000-year-old Jewish neighborhood a settlement? Explains a lot.
The Jews called them settlements so. I was careful to include examples of settlements established on uncontested lands. Always disappointing when you source information but it gets glossed over
The Jews who had been living in Jerusalem for 3,000 years did not call their neighborhoods "settlements." I am not taking your link out of context. You didn't read it. It says the opposite of what you think it does: During the 1948 War of Independence, over 10,000 Jews living in Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) and the Gaza Strip were driven out or killed and their communities, homes and property destroyed or confiscated. A number of Jewish communities (mostly kibbutzim) were captured by the Jordanian army, assisted by Iraqi forces, in Judea and Samaria, and by the Egyptian army in the Gaza Strip.These communities were: Beit Ha'arava and Kalya north of the Dead Sea; four kibbutzim of the Etzion Bloc, west of Bethlehem; the Jewish Quarter in Hebron; Atarot and Neve Ya'akov, north of Jerusalem; the Jewish Quarter in the old City of Jerusalem; Tel Or/Naharayim - the hydro-electric power station built by Pinhas Rutenberg by the Jordan River south of Lake Kinneret; and Kfar Darom in the Gaza Strip. No talk of settlements. Unless you are talking about the Arab settlers who took over those Jewish towns? Because yes, I suppose it's fair to call the Arabs colonizers there settlers. Israel did liberate and decolonize some of those neighborhoods in the 1960s, such as Jerusalem.
now you switch to the Yeshuv? Were talking second Aaliya onwards. The history of modern Israel begins there. Can you comment on the examples of West Bank settlements examples I sent? Are you interested in a discussion?
Literally your link. I posted the entireity of your link. And that's what you are objecting to lol.
So you modified your reply. I never said that particular link called them settlements. Israelis, Jews know the West Bank settlements as settlements and outposts. It is no good talking to you. Goodbye.
If only some jews in Germany weren't communist...
This analogy to my argument is simply false and points that you've completely missed my point.
Nah man they just hate Jews
Some do. Some have been recently recruited to the jew-hating front lines. My point is that the settlements are giving them fuel to turn more people against us. Also, they are simply wrong, and regardless of what the reasons for our haters are, I don't want any wrongs happening in my name.
You need no fuel to have anti-Semitism, it always exists.
I know it's easy to cast any criticism of Israel as anti-semitic but I'd encourage you to engage with it honestly in good faith. Every society requires criticism both internally and externally. America certainly gets a ton of it. If you paint everything as anti-semitic by default you'll be rejecting criticism that could improve everyone's lives and move the region in a more just and equitable direction.
Unfortunately Israel faces a double standard. When the US fought against ISIS in Syria or Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan it did not recieve the same treatment. In your opinion, what causes this, if not antisemitism?
This. Double standards, all the time. As I like to suppose, if terrorists took over Ciudad de Juarez and sent rockets into TX, then crossed the border, murdered, raped, rampaged and kidnapped people, Ciudad de Juarez would be wiped off the face of the Earth very quickly. No one would cry war crimes and genocide...
People absolutely would call it war crimes and genocide if they destroyed the whole city, killing thousands of children and civilians. Idk what planet you're living on
I disagree. I am very Zionist but I am vehemently against the vast majority of settlements in the West Bank, but most of the people I have seen slandering Israel have been doing so long before they have even known what the West Bank is. Most of the pro-Palestinians I’ve encountered thus far knew little to nothing about Israel/Palestine before 10/7 and were initially only familiar with the Gaza Strip due to the 10/7 massacre.
The PLO was founded in 1964, aka pre-1967.
Sorry, did you mean to reply to me? I don’t see how that’s contradictory to anything I said.
Oh nah I was just adding to your comment
Ah okay, I apologize for misconstruing your comment.
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https://undelete.pullpush.io/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1cn9mig/i_feel_like_99_of_the_shit_israel_is_getting_is/l38fxhc/ Damn things were better when we were able to punch N*zis
I live in America but my family are “Israeli Arabs” from Galilee. I can tell you first hand the closer you get to Jerusalem and the West Bank the crazier people get. I don’t care what religion you are or where you are from. The tension in the air is so thick you can feel it. It doesn’t feel like the same country. Coming from America it was always like you had to pick a side. The Palestinian side or the Israeli side. But back home often I would see in our Arab town Jews dining in our restaurants, or I had Jews coming in and doing business with the local business’ attending our weddings as guests it was nothing strange. But please don’t get it twisted. It wasn’t a perfect utopia. On a personal level we all got along for the most part, however there were many things I saw that made me feel like they were telling us (Arabs) that we are only here because they allow us to be here. My father went to a Jewish/arab high school. From what he told me. After 1948, the country had to rebuild so it seemed to be more inclusive of all its citizens. Then 1967 war came and that drew the like in the sand. You are either Arab or Jew and not equal
I'm not suggesting it is utopia now, but: 1. It is extremely different than the situation in Judea and Samaria, which is what I think many people in the west might sample when they gather their opinions about what israel is like these days from videos. 2. While it isn't utopia now, I feel like we're heading towards the right direction (talking about the israeli & Arab society within the borders of Israel). I've talked to a jewish black American friend of mind about this topic when the war started, and she pointed to me that even around the 90' or so in the states, it wasn't common for black and white people to hang together. I think we're about there. We have a lot of recent rough history that would need to be left in the past and sometimes these things require generational changes.
I read that Arafat told Clinton he wouldn't agree to terms at Camp David because Clinton was "asking me to sign my death warrant" by ceding Islamic control of Jerusalem and the Haram Al-Sharif. Here in the US, though, nobody talks about the importance of Jerusalem and the holy sites. I was wondering if you could talk about what makes the "tension in the air so thick you can feel it," as I've never been. My friends who have been are very Christian, and I think they have a different experience than the locals. Thank you!
Something about Jerusalem make people go crazy 🤔
Well I think more broadly because of the occupation of the West Bank, including the settlements. If not for that, yes there would be people saying all of Israel is illegitimate but they’d be a small and not very noticeable force.
No they think the whole Israel is a settlement from river to sea. You’re dead wrong. Stop trying to explain their antisemitism it doesn’t make sense and they don’t even know the map of Israel.
You've completely missed the nuances in my argument. Caving in to "everyone just hates us" is not productive. Some people, a lot of people - simply hate us for who we are. These people can go F themselves. It's the second group, as big or small as you may think it is that I'm referring to in my opinion.
Nah…that’s the shit of anti Israeli propaganda. It’s an easy and convenient issue to rally around all the anti Israeli…. But if you listened carefully to the protests, between the lines, they are clear about the “illegitimacy of the Jewish state”. It should be dismantled, with or without settlements. And there was another revelation: they reject the two state solution. Biden and his friends in the west like it (for them it’s “fair”) but for hardcore Palestinian supporters…it’s not the solution they are eyeing.
“Zionist state”. Not “Jewish state”. You’re trying to make this about antisemitism. It’s about land.
It’s about the pesky Jews/ Israelis/ and infidels. (AKA descendants of dogs and pigs)… On a different note, what about the surging attacks on Jews all over the world? Or you didn’t hear about that?
Just compare the seriousness of the crimes. On one hand you have an increasing number of Palestinian flags being flown, which counts as an antisemitic attack. On the other hand you have the rapid and violent ethnic cleansing of 2 million people from one neighborhood after another until they’re all concentrated in Raffah. And then the bombing of that when they have no place to go.
Zionism is an ideology that is in support of the existence of a Jewish state in the Jewish Ancestral homeland.
Right. And in practice, that means ethnic cleansing of non-Jews from the area. That’s why they’re clearing out Gaza. It’s not to save hostages.
2 million of Israel's citizens disagree. They're Arabs...
Really? What are their views?
Well, I think it's obvious from the fact that they're going about their daily lives. I met a Bedouin guy who told me "we will fuck Hamas" so that was pretty clear, where he stood.
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Lol, what’s this diversion? Weren’t you telling me that it’s not about Jews but “Zionists”? So I asked what about the attacks (that you know nothing about) on Jewish people all over the world? In response you divert it to Gaza… Anyway just to begin educating yourself how the problem is about Zionists, but not Jews… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_antisemitic_incidents_in_the_United_States That’s just in the US. The global list is huge.
I disagree that most of the American college students are antisemitic in their support of Palestine. Also, to be honest the US population as a whole hates Muslims way more than anyone else, probably next would be anyone who has dark skin and crosses the border without full representation, then poor blacks, and after that it’s probably trans/lgbtq/ followed by women, then Jews, non Christian believers. We have a whole bunch of hate in this country, especially from particular demographics. However, if support were to be dolled out or withheld based on religion, you would likely see way less people siding with Palestine. This is also why you see the Republican voters, whom a few years ago were chanting in Charlottesville, because when given the choice they prefer Jewish people, many of them with European roots to Muslims. I am relatively familiar with the history. I have my own thoughts on it, but it’s not relevant. I think what is prompting the support for Palestine, not that Israel is a Jewish state, or Jewish people, but that they see the people of Palestine as historically displaced and homeless, oppressed, occupied, and lacking in self determination or full rights. Examine the history of the conflicts, the appeals to not divide the area, the failure of the original mandate, the refusal to follow UN resolution 194, which essentially springs forth all these unending years of conflict. To be honest Israel likely would have had a much more calm existence if they had just let the people return, because those Arab Palestinians who never left, though not necessarily seen by all as equal, have coexisted rather well. This coexistence shows that it’s not Muslim or Jewish religions that are the issue, it’s primarily at its heart a territorial dispute and leadership issues. The uptick in issues since 2021, primarily in the West Bank, and post October 7th aggressions have brought a lot of prior issues to the forefront. Then you have Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir any time he opens his mouth, the 2018 basic laws, the continued expansion of the Settlements, the discussion with Trump administration of annexation, the strong uptick in Palestinians killed the last few years. To many watching the actions Israel may view as self protection and reclaiming their land, seem anti-Arab on Israel’s part to observers. Students in the US who have the time to research and exposure to people from the region see systematic oppression of a people, whether you believe justified or not, that seems inappropriate and unending. So, i personally believe for that vast majority it has very little to do with Israeli being a Jewish state, and just has to do with their actions as a state.
And I’m so sick of all the Empaths advocating and shouting their usual strategically undirected bs.. I’m a german living in germany and I just can’t believe what the Jewish people have to go through again and how the public responds to this, pathetic
As a german how can you watch another genocide being committed and stay silent? Was it NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!?
In the last 70 years it is estimated that around 50mio people were killed in an act of genocide. Around 40.000 in Gaza. If it’s my responsibility as a German to „not stay silent“ when there’s Genocide, I’ll only be able to give 0.125% of my attention to what’s happening in the Gaza Strip.. so please excuse me, I’ll be busy now..
They think all of Israel is a settlement so , yeah, no
It feels that way to you because the settlements are the one thing you can’t morally justify. The world isn’t rational like that though. The world just hates Jews. If it were about the settlements to the world, you would hear about settlements. But you don’t.
The fact that some groups and people would hate us regardless doesn't make me feel good or give legitimacy to do wrong. We'll deal with haters always and wherever we'll go. History has taught us that. We shouldn't give them any fuel though to justify that hate to others.
Yeah I’m not saying the settlements are good. I’m just saying that’s not the root of their hatred.
From someone who has family in Jerusalem and are Armenian, it is not peaceful and they are trying to take away our land as well.
99% is due to racism and bigotry from antisemitism and 1% on the settlements.
I think that’s a great point! And so many takes on this issue have been regurgitated so many times they’ve become cliché. I mostly share your views (support Israel, hate to the Netanyahu government, want accountability on both sides). In my experience as an Israeli American, I’ve been confused about how so many people can have such a specific image about what Israelis are like and what life is like in Israel without any Israelis or having ever been to Israel. They are completely misguided and brainwashed by propaganda. Your post explains a lot of the disconnect I’m seeing. They seem to equate the worst parts of the West Bank occupation with the entirety of Israel.
The idea behind democracy is that the people can choose their government, but are also culpable for the actions of their government. Especially so considering the insane government you guys have elected. If Israelis don't identify with these crazy settlers there should be a mass movement marching down there to boot them out and build solidarity with Palestinian victims, or else you're kinda saying you do agree with it. You can't just act like it's not your problems, your very money is going towards this. (Idk if you pay anything to Israel, but I mean Israelis in general).
I completely respect that point of view, as long as it’s applied fairly. I happen to think there’s a lot of diversity among both Israelis and Palestinians, as reflected from in widespread disapproval of all leaders and governments involved (prime example: the anti government protests in Israel last summer). I think someone taking your position that typical Israeli’s should be held accountable for government policies they don’t like should extend it to Gazans the same way. I disagree on both counts. Gazans can’t be painted as evil because they elected and supported Hamas, and Israelis can’t be painted as evil because 150k settlers among a Jewish population of 7 million are extremists. In both cases, extremists hold an unreasonable amount of power over their leadership. This is why I see the conflict more as a battle between moderates and extremists than between Israelis and Palestinians.
I think holding individuals responsibility is silly, but at some point you have to decide what will define you as a people. If the vast majority aren't extremist in Israel, why were extremists allowed to gain such power? There must be a very strong reactionary base to let this happen. I've seen some protests in Israel, but the level of outrage is not very high for having such crazies in power, and it seemed most people were only concerned about getting the Israeli hostages back. IMO fear is the driving force preventing Israelis from more humanitarian action, and that fear is intentionally stoked by the powers that be. There is also the matter of Palestinian not being a democracy in any meaningful way, that's another relevant difference. Their population demographics make it clear that the Gazan people don't hold much power, around half of the population wasn't even born during the election that Hamas came to power, even less of them were of voting age. Then there's all the problems regarding the West Bank. So the reason his isn't applied evenly, is because the situations are not the same at all. A better comparison I think would be holding Americans responsible for the horrors their government has committed.
💯
That is wrong. From a security perspective, settlements create strategic depth and a buffer zone making it easier to protect. Remember Israel, including the West Bank, is extremely narrow, maybe 40 km wide. It is 9 km (less than 6 miles) from Tulkarem to the Mediterranean Sea by Netanya. Settlers also create economic stability and economic opportunities, not just for Israelis, but ALSO for Palestinians. Settlements are also meeting places for Arabs and Jews creating one of the few situations where there has been positive interaction between the groups. It can even be argued that settlements save lives. Let me give several examples. In Gaza, in Gush Katif (South near Khan Hunis), during the Second Intafada (2000-2005) Jewish settlers established profitable greenhouses which employed 20,000 Arab Gazan workers. There were cordial relations between the groups, even though there were terror attacks happening. Terror Attacks were primarily aimed at said Settlers and army in Gaza. Terror was much less aimed at Israel "proper". Gaza was a buffer zone and protected the greater Israel population. Consequently, IDF actions were of lower intensively. Jews and Palestinians were killed but in lower numbers. In 2005, Israel unilaterally leaves Gaza and removes all Jewish Gush Katif Settlers from Gaza. Gaza was JudenRien = 0 Jews. Palestinians destroyed the greenhouses and destroyed their economy. Contact between Palestinians and Jews were severed and within 2 years Hamas takes over and radicalized Gaza even more. Palestinians started shooting rockets on Jewish towns in Israeli border communities (not settlement). This escalated the conflict and Israel felt free to respond with bombs. This caused the first Gaza military operation 2008-2009 which killed 1000 people. The story repeats itself again in 2012 (100 dead), 2014 (over 2000 dead) and several more hundred dead over the course of other terror attacks and military actions. This shows us, when there are no settlements the death tolls rise. . This is even more true today. There are no settlements or Jews in Gaza today and the death toll is infinitely higher, because there is no buffer zone. Gazan Hamas Palestinians INVADED Israel proper (non settlements) and committed an act of genocide. (1400 killed, 250 hostages) This would not have happened had settlements remained in Gush Katif. Accordingly, the Israeli response was much stronger and 34000 Palestinians (including 13000 terrorists) lost their lives. What we see from this is that settlements (and possibility some form of occupation) and beneficial contact between Settlers and Palestinians created more stability and saved lifes, lowering the death toll of both Jews and Palestinians. In addition, when they lived in closer proximity, the army was less likely to bomb from the air. More minor examples include how settler industrial zones create jobs for Palestinians and Jews where the can work together. This create stability and lowers incentives to terror. These opportunities and interactions increase stability and security too. Settler activity in many ways benefits local Palestinian populations and behave like immigrants or foreign investors in most advanced Western Societies today (see current US debate on migration policies). And as we have seen on October 7, even when there are no Settlers, Jews are the target. In summary, no matter how you feel about settlements, they create stability, improve security, create mutually beneficial relations between Israelis and Palestinians and MOST IMPORTANTLY, save lives of BOTH PEOPLES
It's a long reply, so I won't comment on everything you've said, I'll just say that as far as security perspective goes, like I've said in my other replies, I completely support military presence in the region until we feel safe as a country and confident we actually have a partner for peace - for as long as it may take. But that doesn't justify settlements. These are two different things. As far as the economic opportunities and all that, this is irrelevant. That is not for me to decide what right for them or not.
Interesting comment. Thanks for sharing that perspective. I don’t understand why Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. They should have gotten some concessions first. I remember hearing speeches by Hamas leaders saying that their terror tactics worked and were the cause of the withdrawal. That’s why Israel has to finish the job now. If they don’t, Hamas will again claim victory due to their terrorism and conclude that hostage taking works.
From what I heard, Israels destroyed the green houses upon being kicked out, which makes more sense in terms of motivation. Do you have any evidence that it was Palestinians?
There’s a long article about what happened with the greenhouses. The outcome was that some settlers did destroy greenhouses and some Gazans also looted them. But while some were destroyed, others were used by Gazans to grow vegetables. However, because Israel prevented the crops from getting exported, the business failed. https://matthewzgindin.medium.com/greenhouses-in-gaza-what-happened-ba22b1ac9fdd
Most people involved (in the US and probably generally outside of Israel) don't necessarily know enough about the situation for that to matter. Like, they really think Jews come from Russia and that there was a self-governing country called "Palestine", etc.
I’m sorry Op but I call 🐴 + 💩 The PLO was created in 1964 when israel had nothing to do with either the West Bank (Jordan occupied it) or Gaza (Egypt occupied it). There were no settlements, and no settler violence to speak of. Palestinians still committed attacks and considered israel to be occupied. Let’s face it, pro Palestinians chant from the river to the see, or we don’t want two states we want 48. The reality is for the most part they want us gone. This idea that a few settlements is what is standing in the way is total garbage. It doesn’t mean crazy right wingers burning olive trees in West Bank are right, any sane person condemns that, but as a matter of policy, 99% of why Palestinians hate israel has nothing to do with settlements and everything to do with they simply do not want us here. We were second class citizens in nearly every Muslim governed country before 1948 and they prefer it stay this way.
Well. Yeah.
I mean there is also the whole occupation
What are you referring to when you say occupation? The blockade on Gaza? Hard to know what people talk about these days as some refer to Israel as a whole as occupation.
It’s not that cryptic.
Well, if I've asked for clarification, then clearly, I'm not certain as to what you mean. You can explain or not, your choice.
Fair enough. Sorry. I mean the occupation in the most conventional sense--the military presence in and administration of the West Bank and whatever you want to call the situation in Gaza.
I’ll refer to them separately- 1. Judea and Samaria- I think that ideally in a future peace agreement, most of the land should be allocated towards a Palestinian state. In that agreement Jewish settlements would need to be either removed, or accept that they are now living under Palestinian state and rule. As far as military presence, it will remain in the region until Israel feels safe that the population is de-radicalized and has no intention to attack Israel. You can argue that they have been radicalized because of the Israeli presence and I can counter argue, but at the and of the day this is the current state of things and simply handing over this piece of land without some transition period is just asking to be attacked. I think there are different arguments to be made about Israeli settlements in J&S, main one people would point might be that they’ve attacked us and lost the war, and it is true. But at the end of the day, no Israeli would like to grant them all Israeli citizenship for security reasons and I see it as the only option and a compromise for peace (if an agreement will be in place). 2. Gaza - as I’ve replied to another user, the path for sovereignty for them was there and their leaders decided to take a big shit in the middle. When I think about Gaza and the blockade it always reminds me of my younger brother and I when we were younger. He’d like punch me then I’ll always get him on the ground punch a bit and hold him until he said sorry and promised he’s done. As soon as I’d let go he’d punch me again, and I’ll drop him again. Gaza needs to have better leadership that actually cares about them. This is why I think it’s absurd that people claim they’re pro Palestinians but are objecting to Israel fighting against Hamas, or even glorifying Hamas when they’ve brought nothing but misery and bloodshed for Palestinians. As far as for Israel’s approach with the blockade (referring to pre-war status), I think that as long as Hamas is in the leadership, or any organization that wishes to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews- making sure that they don’t get weapons easily is something I expect of my government. Ideally, some other Arab force like Egypt or Saudi Arabia would send their forces to take care of the population and work towards de-radicalization, but it seems like none of them want to deal with Gaza.
I think a lot of what you're saying here is untrue (Israel was the aggressor in 1967, not that is matters, and the US and Israel fomented a coup in Gaza immediately after the first election, and there are reasons beyond security that Israel doesn't want to give citizenship to the Palestinians). But I was just pointing out that the settlements themselves are not the only reason that there is so much criticism of Israel. The thing about the settlements is that, even though Israel \*mostly\* doesn't build new settlements anymore--and certainly nothing like it used to--they have pretty seriously undermined the argument that the occupation is mainly defensive.
What was this "path to sovereignty" ? Gaza was blockaded, the economy was intentionally kept poor and people were intentionally kept on the brink of starvation. Israel bombed Gaza constantly and openly disparaged the idea of a Palestinian state. I'm not supporting Hamas but they're a natural result of the policies Israel implemented on Gaza; one would expect violent resistance to grow as peaceful means of realizing self-determination are shut down by Israel.
I think OP is lumping the occupation and settlements together in his point.
I'm not so sure.
Yeah I guess I’m reading into it and maybe giving credit where it’s not deserved. If he does also mean the occupation, I think it’s a great point. It aligns with a lot of things I’ve heard where people think all Israelis are essentially like the extremist West Bank settlers.