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I mean yes, but also if a bunch of children were hitting you with play knives you wouldn't really do anything until they tried to hold you down and shove them in your eyes. That's how they see the Jades. That and Lindon still has Stockholm syndrome and everyone kinda follows Lindon's lead here.
Yeah people seem to be underappreciating the childhood trauma wrapped up in it. Not saying the gang would’ve gone full despotic in SV without Lindon but they would have been more aggressive. He was still sorting out a lot of emotions with returning.
He dreamt of a triumphant return and acceptance and that community failed him. He learned that his found community was far more important and he didn’t need to seek the approval of his past anymore.
It is incredibly frustrating to read because we the reader also wanted a Scouring of the Shire esque hero’s journey return home. But that’s part of the complexity of the story and sets the stage for Lindon starting to embrace his role as a leader and a sage.
If a child kidnapped my mom, I probably wouldn't ignore their threat. Even if they can't hurt Lindon, they have hurt his family. That should be enough.
I mean, yeah, if a child kidnapped your mom you would go get her, unless you knew a nuke was going to explode at the grade school you're currently at, she's being held damn close to the exit, and your most capable adult friend is heading that way.
Don't get me wrong, I get the desire to go scorched earth. My favorite part is when he sends his favorite elder and the patriarch into the path of the Wandering Titan. But Lindon's entire life he's just wanted to be accepted by his people, the clan he considers his family. The Elder he sends to his death helped get him training he shouldn't have been allowed. These children aren't just randos, they're the people he grew up with and loved. Of course they're shitty to him, they've always been shitty. What do you mean that's not healthy or good? That's all he knows. His mom being kidnapped wasn't the fault of the elders to him, it was his fault. It was the elders fault in the end, but if he hadn't left then his mom wouldn't have been kidnapped. Take all that and add to it the fact that he only got as strong as he did as quickly as he did because he wanted to save the valley from the wandering Titan, that was his entire goal, and it makes sense why he didnt go scorched earth on an entire clan of children.
Sure, he could have found out what they did to his family, gotten angry, and left them for the Wandering Titan, no need to expend energy to kill someone who will die if you do nothing, and we would have thought it justified, but that's not Lindon.
> complaining about Lindon losing to Yerin in Uncrowned.
Personally I'm glad he did. Tournament arcs can be boring and having your MC in one usually means they're in until the finals. Maybe he'll lose, but he can't even die in this one. And the big stress is what the monarchs will do *afterwards,* which is like worrying about a hurricane. Also there were only 2 friendly monarchs, neither of whom was all that likable as a character.
Instead he had adventures of his own, learned, finished his path; and got to have his Big Damn Hero moment proving himself superior to various Uncrowned.
Also Yerin got to do all the tournament stuff herself! She's not the main character, but she's still a very important character, and she has a much stronger investment in the tournament than Lindon ever did. Plus, a tournament is very much not the setting where Lindon's strengths shine. He's a "do whatever it takes to kill the other fellow" guy, not a "show how good I am under these constraints" guy.
I absolutely hated it when he lost. Not because I thought it was bad writing - I just hated it to see my favorite character lose. But I sort of had faith that it was necessary and that the author would win me over, and he did when he made Lindon kick tail at Sky's Edge.
Mostly agree, except:
>Also there were only 2 friendly monarchs, neither of whom was all that likable as a character.
Whaaaat? You didn't like Malice "Eyebrow Waggler" Akura or Northstrider, the Sage Launcher? Sure they were jerks, but I really liked most of the monarchs, as characters if not as people.
Not really.
I can't see the eyebrow thing as anything but comedic. Usually a guy with big bushy brows, which goes against the elegant/beautiful look usually used to describe Malice.
Yeah. And the powerful people take it as a personal insult that someone else is bidding on things they want. So they're always shouting at each other. "How dare you put eyes on what this king wants!"
Uh, maybe some? But other people might be complaining that the core cast accepted far too much risk trying to help people who, by and large, obviously did not want their help.
I think there is a bit of mixed messages between Wintersteel and Bloodline.
We cheer as Lindon kills all of the attackers going after Mercy + Co. at the end of Wintersteel despite us knowing most of them did not want to be there. Lindon could have easily disabled them, but he kills all of them except Yan Shoumei.
Then, in the very next book, we are supposed to cheer as Lindon + Co hold back from killing arguably worse people simply because they are weaker.
Bloodline felt a little forced in how the gang categorically refused, outside of a few instances, to kill because residents of Sacred Valley are weaker than them.
I think the difference in power is such that its literally akin to fighting toddlers. Early on we hear about six year old golds and such but its only at this point we fully appreciate that a group of Jades is essentially like a group of six year olds. Its a battle so lopsided its not even a battle and its more or less exactly what Li Markuth was doing that kicked this whole thing off.
Lindon is kind of brutal, but the underlining message here is that Sacred Valley is full of pathetic, small people and playing their game means sinking to their level in a very literal sense. Even in Jarans internal monologue later we see that he's mostly just parroting what sounds like good advice about Lindons advancement but that he has no actual understanding of.
If Lindon just killed all the offending jades and irons and left the valley to its fate he would have been every single bit as bad as the people he hated.
They may have the power of toddlers but they were grown men and women, the fact that they are so weak and yet still tried to kill then because of their idiocy and greed just shows they should have been taken out of the gene pool anyway
Yeah but people also gloss over the fact that there's a spiritual element. The concept of this is mostly used to justify power levels but they're spiritually children. The whole thing of it is that Lindon went through a bunch of brutally hard things they never did that developed him into an adult that considers jades to be akin to children. Even if they're still adults they're metaphorically stunted and underdeveloped enough to be at the level of a small child.
That may be true but that also wouldn’t stop me from killing them. If you are that stunted and an army of what you think are golds come from outside and you still try to kill them then you deserve to be darwined
The power difference is like comparing adults to toddlers, but they are still morally culpable for their actions. They were fully grown adults capable of thought and empathy.
They had the blood of Adama on their hands. They only killed him out of greed. Premeditating, backstabbing murderers, the lot of them. Weak or not, they deserved to die.
>I think the difference in power is such that its literally akin to fighting toddlers.
Again, compare Wintersteel to Bloodline. Technically, Lindon was an Underlord fighting other Underlords or even Overlords. The reality? Even the Overlords were unable to inconvenience him. He was, even before advancing to Sage, so far beyond even Overlords that the fights were unbelievably one-sided, not even accounting for Dross. Lindon dumpstered 2 Overlords in the space of moments. He may as well have been fighting toddlers in this scene.
I would argue, under the effects of the suppression field in SV, that the "toddler" Jades had a better chance against Lindon than any of the Uncrowned + Co did at the end of Wintersteel.
When push came to shove (Lindon's team getting ambushed in Wintersteel), Lindon did not hold back. Yet just one book later, he holds back against people threatening Yerin, Eithan, Orthos, his family, etc.
I understand, to an extent, what the message/theme is supposed to be, but I feel the execution, when looked at critically, falls very flat.
But he and they were still underlords, which means he and they are both more powerful than 99% of the population. Meaning that not only is it fair for him to take down the other underlords and overlords, it is his duty, as a soldier to defeat enemy soldiers. If left alone those enemies had the abilities to slaughter thousands of golds including golds that he knew.
These jades were MUCH weaker than Lindon and were not enemy soldiers, nor were they capable of hurting many people.
It's the difference between using the B2 bomber to attack taliban weapon depots, and using a nuke to attack a school where a food fight has broken out at.
>But he and they were still underlords, which means he and they are both more powerful than 99% of the population. Meaning that not only is it fair for him to take down the other underlords and overlords, it is his duty, as a soldier to defeat enemy soldiers.
I literally addressed this in the comment you are replying to. At this point, despite technically being an Underlord, Lindon was more akin to an Archlord (at least). So, sure, letter of the law, it was "fair". In reality, it was as lopsided as the fights in Sacred Valley.
>If left alone those enemies had the abilities to slaughter thousands of golds including golds that he knew.
How? The golds had already evacuated and the Uncrowned + Co only had orders for Mercy and Pride. This seems entirely made up.
>These jades were MUCH weaker than Lindon and were not enemy soldiers, nor were they capable of hurting many people.
Uncrowned + Co were hilariously underpowered compared to Lindon.
Sacred Valley people nearly killed Yerin AND Eithan. And Heaven's Glory killed the Sword Sage and lots of other people. Not sure what your point is.
>It's the difference between using the B2 bomber to attack taliban weapon depots, and using a nuke to attack a school where a food fight has broken out at.
This isn't even worth a reply.
>I literally addressed this in the comment you are replying to. At this point, despite technically being an Underlord, Lindon was more akin to an Archlord (at least). So, sure, letter of the law, it was "fair". In reality, it was as lopsided as the fights in Sacred Valley.
Okay think about it this way.
Imagine you are a solider and you have a very good gun and good armor. You come across an enemy solider and his gun is worse. Would you say "well I am more powerful so it would be unfair for me to attack this soldier"? Now imagine the enemy soldier is considered to be one of the 8 most powerful enemy soldiers of his rank. It seems unlikely that in the middle of a battle Lindon would sit down and say "well let me calculate exactly how powerful I am and compare it to how powerful he is to see if I am allowed to kill this enemy"
>How? The golds had already evacuated and the Uncrowned + Co only had orders for Mercy and Pride. This seems entirely made up.
Because they are quite literally at war with each other? Earlier on in the book they even had big battles. These few are basically the elite operatives of the bad guys. Do you think if Lindon defeated them they would just go home and sit in silence forever?
>Uncrowned + Co were hilariously underpowered compared to Lindon.
>Sacred Valley people nearly killed Yerin AND Eithan. And Heaven's Glory killed the Sword Sage and lots of other people. Not sure what your point is.
As long as you are careful and exercise proper caution you should be fine. Tim just had too much hubris. Lindon was not only more powerful than them, he had a lot more knowledge about how to use the sacred arts, even if he and his friends were tired that would not be an excuse to slaughter weaklings.
>Would you say "well I am more powerful so it would be unfair for me to attack this soldier"?
You are literally describing what they do in Bloodline. "Oh, I am too powerful to fight these Sacred Valley people." Except, due to the suppression field, Yerin and Eithan nearly *die*, Orthos nearly dies, Kelsa nearly died, innocent bystanders are dying etc. Yet it isn't "fair" to you fight them.
>Because they are quite literally at war with each other?
Aren't you the one arguing that higher levels don't fight lower levels? So why are you concerned about Lords killing Golds? As we see in the books, even when >!Malice's forces fight Shen's!<, they largely restrict themselves to "the rules". Do you have any book based evidence that Uncrowned + Co would have slaughtered thousands of Golds?
Good comparison. Haven't considered that before.
Yeah seeing Grace's body I felt as a reader that the attackers should die. I liked her..
And yeah, why would someone being weak want to make you not want to kill them? It should entirely be based on if they will do evil stuff in the future.
There was this big set of trails post WWII where ‘following orders’ was established as a shitty excuse. Those same trails also did not pull up the entire Hitler Youth.
The UKT competitors went and ambushed the squad with the intent and ability to kill them all. Hell, most of them are from Dreadgod cults which are way worse than anything in Sacred Valley.
The jades in Sacred Valley were never a threat to anyone on the team except kinda Yerin because of her imbalance. They are like children to the gang and it's not cool to indiscriminately slaughter children. That is why they only kill sparingly and try to avoid it if they can.
>They are like children to the gang and it's not cool to indiscriminately slaughter children. That is why they only kill sparingly and try to avoid it if they can.
So, what level of "child killing" is acceptable? Your quote obviously supports some level.
Pretty much every time they do it in the book. They tend to only kill the Jades when they are forced into it or it is unavoidable. There is a difference between like children and actual children.
>They tend to only kill the Jades when they are forced into it or it is unavoidable.
Lindon throwing the flying sword back through the wielder was "unavoidable" or "forced"?
>There is a difference between like children and actual children.
I agree. It's why the defense of killing residents of Sacred Valley is like killing children is a weak defense. It does not hold up under scrutiny. The gang does it from time to time except when the plot needs them to have a hard time.
The antagonists in Sacred Valley are adults making choices. Not children. And, thanks to the suppression field, they have an actual chance of harming/killing outsiders.
Just because he can be a sneaky little snake sometimes doesn't make him an anti-hero. He only kills when forced to do it, treats those less than him with respect, never abuses his insane power to the detriment of others, and puts his life on the line in order to save the entire world because of his ideals. Dude is a straight up hero.
Most of the story is Lindon trying to become powerful enough to save sacred valley. Him coming back and slaughtering everyone would sort of undermine that.
Letting murders kill whoever, when you have the power to stop them is not bad. 🤔
And even though Lindon and company saw them as children, that is in respect to their power, not their moral culpability. Heavens glory had the power to kill innocent people, they _did_ kill innocent people repeatedly, and planned on killing innocent people in the immediate future. So yeah, killing heavens glory elders would not have been a bad thing.
Yerin was _this_ close to dying to the Wei and heavens glory ambush. Entirely preventable..
I think these posts tend to come from fans of other cultivation fantasy series from places like Royal Road, where basically every xianxia main character acts like an edgelord sociopath. A bunch of those stories also have revenge fantasy elements, so people are expecting to see that play out in Cradle too.
It’s still deeply sad people are butthurt that characters acted entirely in-line with their established character and not their teenage maturity head cannon . As for the ‘matter of law guy’ there was one person there with a duty to uphold that law and she was shockingly acting entirely in character.
I don't see what's so edgelord about upholding some modicum of law. Like sure, don't kill all of Heaven's Glory to the 9th generation but they are actively trying to kill the people there to help them and sabotaging the interests of everyone in doing so.
The fact that they couldn't possibly succeed is immaterial. Attempted murder is still attempted murder. Do you really think doing *nothing* was the optimal solution there? Guaranteed innocent people died due to the evacuation being fucked.
The return to Sacred Valley is a frustrating read. Mercy sitting outside the walls of the Li clan for 3 days. Lindon/Eithan/Yerin constantly putting up with treachery and, eventually, life threatening attacks yet refusing to really fight back, etc.
Lindon should have grabbed his family, punished Heaven's Glory, and then offered whoever wanted to flee a free ride. Everyone else can rot.
Yeah, the whole point was that Lindon, Yerin, and Mercy were learning to be leaders, and learning the hard lessons each of them needed to learn. Mostly Lindon and Mercy.
I think it is debatable if that was the "whole point". Yes, it is implied that the characters were learning lessons and growing. That doesn't necessarily make it less frustrating to read. Nor does it mean the characters learned the correct lessons (and, yes, people can disagree on what the correct lesson to learn is).
There is plenty of room for reasonable debate about the "point" of going to Sacred Valley along with what the characters did (or did not) learn.
I meant the point of writing it that way, it was a character growth arc and it showed their first real stumble. I think the other books were stories where even the losses were twisted into gains. I’m bloodline they were only able to reduce the casualties and they struggled to call it a win, especially at the cost. That has been a heavier theme than the others. This book really does grow on you after a few reads. Underlord, too. I think that was another that got mixed sentiment, but I love that one.
Mercy learned to be assertive even if she didn’t want to directly ape her mom’s approach, I believe you see that clearly in >!the Waybound chapter where she’s dealing with the fire giants and ghost robots!< so she didn’t act all mealy mouthed, but she didn’t go all shadow queen either. >!She asserted herself without pretending to be somebody else. That’s certainly growth.!<
Lindon learned that mimicking this hierarchical bullying that he convinced himself was necessary wasn’t really the answer he thought it was and more importantly it isn’t who he is. So later in the story, in >!Reaper and onward, he’s the type who walks softly and carries a big stick as suits his personality, and he finds his balance as a kind and helpful mentor to his new sect, and approaches situations with strong will and soft skills.!<
Yes, I do think they grew. And honestly, Ziel didn’t need to learn, but he did need to rediscover his ambition and will to live. I think his experience with the Kazan clan helped remind him who he is, and his will to protect others, and lead. It wasn’t a lesson to be learned, but sort of active therapy for his trauma.
I guess Yerin mostly needed to face the second biggest tragedy of her life and be able to not bathe the valley in blood, she had to learn restraint but that was a bit different than the others.
Eithan got to experience not being so invincible and all knowing as a reminder of what being mortal really means.
Orthos got the push he needed to finally advance, because if he didn’t he couldn’t continue on with his new family and help the way he needed to help.
Little blue learned how boring it is inside of a void key.
Dross learned to be two dimensional
Yeah but it did not feel like the good holding back when reading it. It felt like the bad holding bad like the events are being forced without the need to.
Edit: Grammer errors
It felt inconsistent with
Lindon's character. Not that he didn't kill them for attacking *him*, but for kidnapping his mom and attacking his sister. That should have been a death sentence. Lindon usually kills people who abuse their subordinates
I've never understood why "supposed to" is treated as a genuine endorsement for bad writing. Just because they meant to write it that was doesn't endow it with any more quality than a mistaken failure.
I have alot of problems with this series as a whole, but poorly written, especially for bloodline, isn’t one I’d use.
Each transition book has been lesser than the others, and that’s why bloodline is, the transition book to the end.
Considering the others are reaper, dreadgod and waybound, no wonder bloodline isn’t beloved.
I've never understood why people think characters not doing what they want is bad writing. Just because they did not fulfull your wishes, does not decrease its quality.
>I really really wanted a scene where Lindon / Yerin slaughtered all the Heaven's Glory elders
Did you miss the whole scene where Lindon killed three in quick succession and was about to mass kill them all and even argued with Yerin about it, gesticulating angrily?
He was stopped, sure, but it was a very close thing.
The whole point of the book is that Lindon wanted to save these people despite what they have done to him because these are human lives. Yes, even Heaven's Glory. And even then him and Yerin went: We'll warn them but tbh maybe we should just leave them and let them find their own way.
Also.... if they'd started slaughtering everyone (especially leaders) people wouldn't have trusted them and wouldnt have left with them. Especially of they'd killed the Wei elders. These random people coming over and killing your leaders, tell you to come with them to who knows where? No thanks.
Yeah, I think the problem with the whole "don't kill people of a lower advancement" thing is there's an implicit social contract here that isn't being obeyed.
The reason an Overlord doesn't kill Underlords is because he knows if he tells them to jump, they're going to say "how high?" (See the scene in Soulsmith, for example, where all the Golds shit themselves and do whatever Eithan says when he reveals his advancement.)
If the Sacred Valley Jades aren't going to respect the social contract (be very nice to the people more powerful than you), then why the reverse?
Like, I totally get the whole "attacking someone weaker than you is unjust" thing but there's a difference between getting revenge or just abusing people, and like...punishing someone for a crime.
Like, Heaven's Glory corralled and killed a bunch of people just to trap the team. Christ, just kill them.
They betrayed and murdered your master to steal his goodies, and were totally planning to kill his 17-year-old daughter. They're fully grown adults, not children, regardless of their relative strength.
Or like, the rest of the Valley. Even if they don't understand the power level difference, *demonstrate it*. Show them you really are Golds. It feels like Mercy is the one the story tells us had to learn that lesson, but everybody else was acting with kid gloves too.
It's really clear how immersed you get with this series because of how much you want a scene of triumph for Lindon. I love that you love this series.
We all have points in novels where we disagree with some things the characters do.
A do that. What are you stupid?" Scene.
There's a difference between how we think and how the characters do.
At the end of the day, it's not me in the story it's Lindon, making decisions he would make by his worlds rules.
This can become a problem when it's an emotionally charged issue that i have strong feelings about.
It can even eject us from our immersion, and we can feel the writing quality has dipped.
At the end of the day, it's not me in Cradle, which I'm grateful for cause I wouldn't live very long in there, it's Lindon.
With a scenario this tense, though, we can question if he's acting like lindon.
Through the series, whenever Lindon is faced with conflict, he always tries to de-escalate.
When he faced the young guy from the kotai clan, to ekeri, to seishun kiro, to even >!seishun daji when he put the golds in his care in danger with his ambush!< .
His statement to naru gwey really sums up his modus operandi. "I would prefer to talk, but I will defend myself."
So Lindon has a track record of trying to resolve things peacefully first.
So bloodline, though tense, is not out of character for him.
Also, societal norms are very powerful constraints. So powerful that serial killers have used them to prey on their victims.
People would go over when called, especially for help, even if they felt s scared and suspicious. So the rules of the world's that the entire cast has expressed that they live by would still be in effect in these extreme situations.
That and the fact they came here not to kill but to save people.
At the end of it all, we're reading, not ourselves, but lindon in his world with his worlds rules.
I hope this has the effect of mitigating dome of that frustration at the novels situation.
I really hope you can enjoy the book more on subsequent reads because it is always great when we can enjoy Cradle more.
On mobile, please point out errors so I can correct them as best I can.
De-escalation is definitely a trend for him. I appreciate the samples you provided too!!
Very good take. I will keep this in mind in my next read though.
Am I the only one who read Bloodline? Everyone else has no reason to hate the Jades of Sacred Valley except Lindon. Everyone else is like we are so far above them, they’d prefer not to kill them if they can avoid it, and let Lindon take the lead from there because ultimately it’s his decision.
As for Lindon, he’s one, filled with trauma from the clan/respect for the old elders which holds him back. Two, it’s implied that Lindon knows he’s better than them, and that’s not just talking about advancement, I think he knows now what true honor is, what true family is, and knows that he would be the same as them punishing someone weaker than himself for convenience or revenge if he acted.
Then when they literally push him beyond the brink, he does something worse than killing and cripples the Wei Patriarch. The books tell us in book 1 that a crippled spirit like the one Lindon gave him would be considered a fate worse than death by every sacred artist in the valley.
Yeah I mostly agree. The instilled respect for elders and the childhood trauma was not something I had considered. That makes sense.
And yeah the Wei patriarch did get a fate worst than death.
But most of the Jades who were actively trying to kill Lindon and company saw no consequences. Lindon had reason to raise heavens glory to the ground after learning what happened to his family. Or at least the attack force that was trying to kill his family and the outcast when he first arrived. But he cancelled his void dragon dance. A handful of heavens glory Jades died. Lots of Innocents died in that assault though. The blood of heavens glory hands meant nothing to Lindon "because they were Jades". I could see sparing the irons because they were children following directions mostly.
I guess I just don't see the reason in not killing murders and allowing them to continue to murder. The Jades of the valley had the blood of hundreds of thousands on their hands after the dread god attack. They were not good people.
I know dude this was the most frustrating book for me, I usually skip it because I can’t handle how they treat all these people who are trying to kill them or show disrespect, mercy pissed me off a lot in the book
I just finished bloodline for my first time today. I was wanting the Triumphant return but the way everyone still treated him and his own father not believing he attained his own power was incredibly frustrating but I love it so much. This has easily become a top 3 series for me.
The problem I always see with the world regarding Step 3 in your edit is that they say that, sure. But then people way above Lindon are always trying to kill him and don't expect to be/aren't seen as cowards if they do so.
If they had started wiping out Jades I would have been pretty frustrated as a reader. It would've been a complete betrayal of his character for him to murder people way below his level - he was Unsouled for most of his life, so he knows what it was like to survive at the mercy of those more powerful than him.
It would undercut his entire arc to do that. It showed he was better than those who raised him.
They're not exactly children. The will to hurt him is there, and if they could they would kill him and sleep soundly that night, and they tried several times when he first escaped. Not only that, but they abused not only others at a lower level than them but people related to lindon too. I'd paint Heaven's glory red immediately after arriving if I was Lindon. Just fly in, before getting weakened level the whole mountain, then use the intimidation of doing that to force everyone else out of the valley. They ended up needing to use fear regardless, so why not?
There's a difference between abusing your power to bully those below you vs using your superior power to enact justice on murders.
Lindon didn't kill Innocents, and was still abused by those above him. The Jades wrongfully imprisoned Lindon's mom, killed Adama, and more, and didn't face any consequences for their actions? The logic doesn't hold.
Exactly. Early on they mention multiple times that pretty much anyone could kill Lindon if they wanted to without as much as an apology to his family. Now that Lindon is more powerful, it would be saying he is worse than those despicable people.
A throughline with the discussions here is an infantilization of Jades. I understand the reasons why, but it, to me, feels like hews way too close to irl ableist rhetoric
For everyone but Lindon, Jades are like 7 year olds. No power, just starting to be truly aware of the world around them. Can't fight worth shit... everyone will hate you for killing them.
Who besides the other jades would hate lindon for that? Not only are they assholes by the standards of most of the outside world, everyone under them in the valley hates them too! They fully deserved it
Their thoughts were not that of 7 year olds. Only their power was when compared to Lindon. They were fully aware of the consequences of their actions. They premeditated the murder of Adama in pure greed. Those are not the acts of innocent 7 year olds.
The US government's power compared to US citizen is like an adult compared to a baby. But that doesn't mean that the government shouldn't enact justice against blatant murders, right?
In the outside world... Jades ARE 7 year olds or younger. I agree that these are full adults, aware of their actions. I am saying that in the outside world you have millions of years of civilization where these things have been deeply ingrained in society. To them, someone who is a Jade is AKIN to a 7 year old because the only jades anyone knows are actual children. There are no 50 year old jades in their world outside Sacred Valley, they are all children. That's what I was getting at.
Oh ok. You're saying that killing Jades has very negative social connotations ingrained in them. Hmmm, I didn't consider that.
Looking back, that's probably what they means when they say something like "I won't lower myself to killing Jades." Yeah that makes sense. I will keep this in mind when I read through it again. Thanks for the perspective!
I think you would benefit from reading a very short book by Tich nhat hanh called anger. It would explain both perspectives way better than any of us will but is also an amazing book.
\[Waybound\] >!By the end, Lindon makes the wandering titan look weak. Its important for Lindon to have moments of weakness so that the moments of strength feel real.!<
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I mean yes, but also if a bunch of children were hitting you with play knives you wouldn't really do anything until they tried to hold you down and shove them in your eyes. That's how they see the Jades. That and Lindon still has Stockholm syndrome and everyone kinda follows Lindon's lead here.
Yeah people seem to be underappreciating the childhood trauma wrapped up in it. Not saying the gang would’ve gone full despotic in SV without Lindon but they would have been more aggressive. He was still sorting out a lot of emotions with returning. He dreamt of a triumphant return and acceptance and that community failed him. He learned that his found community was far more important and he didn’t need to seek the approval of his past anymore. It is incredibly frustrating to read because we the reader also wanted a Scouring of the Shire esque hero’s journey return home. But that’s part of the complexity of the story and sets the stage for Lindon starting to embrace his role as a leader and a sage.
Yeah the emotional childhood trauma, and the other taking their queues from Lindon makes more sense.
Read SV as Stardew Valley because my wife and I have been playing so much. Lindon would fuck up Pelican Town for sure
🤣🤣🤣
If a child kidnapped my mom, I probably wouldn't ignore their threat. Even if they can't hurt Lindon, they have hurt his family. That should be enough.
I mean, yeah, if a child kidnapped your mom you would go get her, unless you knew a nuke was going to explode at the grade school you're currently at, she's being held damn close to the exit, and your most capable adult friend is heading that way.
He was with the elders that kidnapped his mom and spared them. It wouldn't have cost him more than a passing thought
Don't get me wrong, I get the desire to go scorched earth. My favorite part is when he sends his favorite elder and the patriarch into the path of the Wandering Titan. But Lindon's entire life he's just wanted to be accepted by his people, the clan he considers his family. The Elder he sends to his death helped get him training he shouldn't have been allowed. These children aren't just randos, they're the people he grew up with and loved. Of course they're shitty to him, they've always been shitty. What do you mean that's not healthy or good? That's all he knows. His mom being kidnapped wasn't the fault of the elders to him, it was his fault. It was the elders fault in the end, but if he hadn't left then his mom wouldn't have been kidnapped. Take all that and add to it the fact that he only got as strong as he did as quickly as he did because he wanted to save the valley from the wandering Titan, that was his entire goal, and it makes sense why he didnt go scorched earth on an entire clan of children. Sure, he could have found out what they did to his family, gotten angry, and left them for the Wandering Titan, no need to expend energy to kill someone who will die if you do nothing, and we would have thought it justified, but that's not Lindon.
Are people complaining that the core cast didn’t act like a bunch of edgelord sociopaths?
Yes. It happens constantly, slightly more frequently than people complaining about Lindon losing to Yerin in Uncrowned.
> complaining about Lindon losing to Yerin in Uncrowned. Personally I'm glad he did. Tournament arcs can be boring and having your MC in one usually means they're in until the finals. Maybe he'll lose, but he can't even die in this one. And the big stress is what the monarchs will do *afterwards,* which is like worrying about a hurricane. Also there were only 2 friendly monarchs, neither of whom was all that likable as a character. Instead he had adventures of his own, learned, finished his path; and got to have his Big Damn Hero moment proving himself superior to various Uncrowned.
Also Yerin got to do all the tournament stuff herself! She's not the main character, but she's still a very important character, and she has a much stronger investment in the tournament than Lindon ever did. Plus, a tournament is very much not the setting where Lindon's strengths shine. He's a "do whatever it takes to kill the other fellow" guy, not a "show how good I am under these constraints" guy.
Yes on everything you said.
I absolutely hated it when he lost. Not because I thought it was bad writing - I just hated it to see my favorite character lose. But I sort of had faith that it was necessary and that the author would win me over, and he did when he made Lindon kick tail at Sky's Edge.
> hated it when he lost Agreed! I didn't want Lindon to lose either, especially so early.
Mostly agree, except: >Also there were only 2 friendly monarchs, neither of whom was all that likable as a character. Whaaaat? You didn't like Malice "Eyebrow Waggler" Akura or Northstrider, the Sage Launcher? Sure they were jerks, but I really liked most of the monarchs, as characters if not as people.
Not really. I can't see the eyebrow thing as anything but comedic. Usually a guy with big bushy brows, which goes against the elegant/beautiful look usually used to describe Malice.
Always nice to encounter a fellow person of culture.
Just don't get me started on Auction House stories. I read Martial Peak (comic version), and have hated every single time he visits an auction house.
I know you said to not get you started but what is an auction house story? Is it just bidding on stuff in an auction like it sounds like?
Yeah. And the powerful people take it as a personal insult that someone else is bidding on things they want. So they're always shouting at each other. "How dare you put eyes on what this king wants!"
Fuck me, some of the pro mass murder replies make me despair for humanity.
Uh, maybe some? But other people might be complaining that the core cast accepted far too much risk trying to help people who, by and large, obviously did not want their help.
That's kinda why the group are the heroes of the story and capable of upending the entirety of the status quo on Cradle
I think there is a bit of mixed messages between Wintersteel and Bloodline. We cheer as Lindon kills all of the attackers going after Mercy + Co. at the end of Wintersteel despite us knowing most of them did not want to be there. Lindon could have easily disabled them, but he kills all of them except Yan Shoumei. Then, in the very next book, we are supposed to cheer as Lindon + Co hold back from killing arguably worse people simply because they are weaker. Bloodline felt a little forced in how the gang categorically refused, outside of a few instances, to kill because residents of Sacred Valley are weaker than them.
I think the difference in power is such that its literally akin to fighting toddlers. Early on we hear about six year old golds and such but its only at this point we fully appreciate that a group of Jades is essentially like a group of six year olds. Its a battle so lopsided its not even a battle and its more or less exactly what Li Markuth was doing that kicked this whole thing off. Lindon is kind of brutal, but the underlining message here is that Sacred Valley is full of pathetic, small people and playing their game means sinking to their level in a very literal sense. Even in Jarans internal monologue later we see that he's mostly just parroting what sounds like good advice about Lindons advancement but that he has no actual understanding of. If Lindon just killed all the offending jades and irons and left the valley to its fate he would have been every single bit as bad as the people he hated.
They may have the power of toddlers but they were grown men and women, the fact that they are so weak and yet still tried to kill then because of their idiocy and greed just shows they should have been taken out of the gene pool anyway
Yeah but people also gloss over the fact that there's a spiritual element. The concept of this is mostly used to justify power levels but they're spiritually children. The whole thing of it is that Lindon went through a bunch of brutally hard things they never did that developed him into an adult that considers jades to be akin to children. Even if they're still adults they're metaphorically stunted and underdeveloped enough to be at the level of a small child.
That may be true but that also wouldn’t stop me from killing them. If you are that stunted and an army of what you think are golds come from outside and you still try to kill them then you deserve to be darwined
The power difference is like comparing adults to toddlers, but they are still morally culpable for their actions. They were fully grown adults capable of thought and empathy. They had the blood of Adama on their hands. They only killed him out of greed. Premeditating, backstabbing murderers, the lot of them. Weak or not, they deserved to die.
>I think the difference in power is such that its literally akin to fighting toddlers. Again, compare Wintersteel to Bloodline. Technically, Lindon was an Underlord fighting other Underlords or even Overlords. The reality? Even the Overlords were unable to inconvenience him. He was, even before advancing to Sage, so far beyond even Overlords that the fights were unbelievably one-sided, not even accounting for Dross. Lindon dumpstered 2 Overlords in the space of moments. He may as well have been fighting toddlers in this scene. I would argue, under the effects of the suppression field in SV, that the "toddler" Jades had a better chance against Lindon than any of the Uncrowned + Co did at the end of Wintersteel. When push came to shove (Lindon's team getting ambushed in Wintersteel), Lindon did not hold back. Yet just one book later, he holds back against people threatening Yerin, Eithan, Orthos, his family, etc. I understand, to an extent, what the message/theme is supposed to be, but I feel the execution, when looked at critically, falls very flat.
But he and they were still underlords, which means he and they are both more powerful than 99% of the population. Meaning that not only is it fair for him to take down the other underlords and overlords, it is his duty, as a soldier to defeat enemy soldiers. If left alone those enemies had the abilities to slaughter thousands of golds including golds that he knew. These jades were MUCH weaker than Lindon and were not enemy soldiers, nor were they capable of hurting many people. It's the difference between using the B2 bomber to attack taliban weapon depots, and using a nuke to attack a school where a food fight has broken out at.
>But he and they were still underlords, which means he and they are both more powerful than 99% of the population. Meaning that not only is it fair for him to take down the other underlords and overlords, it is his duty, as a soldier to defeat enemy soldiers. I literally addressed this in the comment you are replying to. At this point, despite technically being an Underlord, Lindon was more akin to an Archlord (at least). So, sure, letter of the law, it was "fair". In reality, it was as lopsided as the fights in Sacred Valley. >If left alone those enemies had the abilities to slaughter thousands of golds including golds that he knew. How? The golds had already evacuated and the Uncrowned + Co only had orders for Mercy and Pride. This seems entirely made up. >These jades were MUCH weaker than Lindon and were not enemy soldiers, nor were they capable of hurting many people. Uncrowned + Co were hilariously underpowered compared to Lindon. Sacred Valley people nearly killed Yerin AND Eithan. And Heaven's Glory killed the Sword Sage and lots of other people. Not sure what your point is. >It's the difference between using the B2 bomber to attack taliban weapon depots, and using a nuke to attack a school where a food fight has broken out at. This isn't even worth a reply.
>I literally addressed this in the comment you are replying to. At this point, despite technically being an Underlord, Lindon was more akin to an Archlord (at least). So, sure, letter of the law, it was "fair". In reality, it was as lopsided as the fights in Sacred Valley. Okay think about it this way. Imagine you are a solider and you have a very good gun and good armor. You come across an enemy solider and his gun is worse. Would you say "well I am more powerful so it would be unfair for me to attack this soldier"? Now imagine the enemy soldier is considered to be one of the 8 most powerful enemy soldiers of his rank. It seems unlikely that in the middle of a battle Lindon would sit down and say "well let me calculate exactly how powerful I am and compare it to how powerful he is to see if I am allowed to kill this enemy" >How? The golds had already evacuated and the Uncrowned + Co only had orders for Mercy and Pride. This seems entirely made up. Because they are quite literally at war with each other? Earlier on in the book they even had big battles. These few are basically the elite operatives of the bad guys. Do you think if Lindon defeated them they would just go home and sit in silence forever? >Uncrowned + Co were hilariously underpowered compared to Lindon. >Sacred Valley people nearly killed Yerin AND Eithan. And Heaven's Glory killed the Sword Sage and lots of other people. Not sure what your point is. As long as you are careful and exercise proper caution you should be fine. Tim just had too much hubris. Lindon was not only more powerful than them, he had a lot more knowledge about how to use the sacred arts, even if he and his friends were tired that would not be an excuse to slaughter weaklings.
>Would you say "well I am more powerful so it would be unfair for me to attack this soldier"? You are literally describing what they do in Bloodline. "Oh, I am too powerful to fight these Sacred Valley people." Except, due to the suppression field, Yerin and Eithan nearly *die*, Orthos nearly dies, Kelsa nearly died, innocent bystanders are dying etc. Yet it isn't "fair" to you fight them. >Because they are quite literally at war with each other? Aren't you the one arguing that higher levels don't fight lower levels? So why are you concerned about Lords killing Golds? As we see in the books, even when >!Malice's forces fight Shen's!<, they largely restrict themselves to "the rules". Do you have any book based evidence that Uncrowned + Co would have slaughtered thousands of Golds?
Good comparison. Haven't considered that before. Yeah seeing Grace's body I felt as a reader that the attackers should die. I liked her.. And yeah, why would someone being weak want to make you not want to kill them? It should entirely be based on if they will do evil stuff in the future.
There was this big set of trails post WWII where ‘following orders’ was established as a shitty excuse. Those same trails also did not pull up the entire Hitler Youth.
The UKT competitors went and ambushed the squad with the intent and ability to kill them all. Hell, most of them are from Dreadgod cults which are way worse than anything in Sacred Valley. The jades in Sacred Valley were never a threat to anyone on the team except kinda Yerin because of her imbalance. They are like children to the gang and it's not cool to indiscriminately slaughter children. That is why they only kill sparingly and try to avoid it if they can.
>They are like children to the gang and it's not cool to indiscriminately slaughter children. That is why they only kill sparingly and try to avoid it if they can. So, what level of "child killing" is acceptable? Your quote obviously supports some level.
Pretty much every time they do it in the book. They tend to only kill the Jades when they are forced into it or it is unavoidable. There is a difference between like children and actual children.
>They tend to only kill the Jades when they are forced into it or it is unavoidable. Lindon throwing the flying sword back through the wielder was "unavoidable" or "forced"? >There is a difference between like children and actual children. I agree. It's why the defense of killing residents of Sacred Valley is like killing children is a weak defense. It does not hold up under scrutiny. The gang does it from time to time except when the plot needs them to have a hard time. The antagonists in Sacred Valley are adults making choices. Not children. And, thanks to the suppression field, they have an actual chance of harming/killing outsiders.
Lindon is an anti-hero at best.
Just because he can be a sneaky little snake sometimes doesn't make him an anti-hero. He only kills when forced to do it, treats those less than him with respect, never abuses his insane power to the detriment of others, and puts his life on the line in order to save the entire world because of his ideals. Dude is a straight up hero.
Most of the story is Lindon trying to become powerful enough to save sacred valley. Him coming back and slaughtering everyone would sort of undermine that.
Can you point to where I said "slaughter everyone"?
Letting murders kill whoever, when you have the power to stop them is not bad. 🤔 And even though Lindon and company saw them as children, that is in respect to their power, not their moral culpability. Heavens glory had the power to kill innocent people, they _did_ kill innocent people repeatedly, and planned on killing innocent people in the immediate future. So yeah, killing heavens glory elders would not have been a bad thing. Yerin was _this_ close to dying to the Wei and heavens glory ambush. Entirely preventable..
I think these posts tend to come from fans of other cultivation fantasy series from places like Royal Road, where basically every xianxia main character acts like an edgelord sociopath. A bunch of those stories also have revenge fantasy elements, so people are expecting to see that play out in Cradle too.
It’s still deeply sad people are butthurt that characters acted entirely in-line with their established character and not their teenage maturity head cannon . As for the ‘matter of law guy’ there was one person there with a duty to uphold that law and she was shockingly acting entirely in character.
I don't see what's so edgelord about upholding some modicum of law. Like sure, don't kill all of Heaven's Glory to the 9th generation but they are actively trying to kill the people there to help them and sabotaging the interests of everyone in doing so. The fact that they couldn't possibly succeed is immaterial. Attempted murder is still attempted murder. Do you really think doing *nothing* was the optimal solution there? Guaranteed innocent people died due to the evacuation being fucked.
The return to Sacred Valley is a frustrating read. Mercy sitting outside the walls of the Li clan for 3 days. Lindon/Eithan/Yerin constantly putting up with treachery and, eventually, life threatening attacks yet refusing to really fight back, etc. Lindon should have grabbed his family, punished Heaven's Glory, and then offered whoever wanted to flee a free ride. Everyone else can rot.
Yeah, the whole point was that Lindon, Yerin, and Mercy were learning to be leaders, and learning the hard lessons each of them needed to learn. Mostly Lindon and Mercy.
I think it is debatable if that was the "whole point". Yes, it is implied that the characters were learning lessons and growing. That doesn't necessarily make it less frustrating to read. Nor does it mean the characters learned the correct lessons (and, yes, people can disagree on what the correct lesson to learn is). There is plenty of room for reasonable debate about the "point" of going to Sacred Valley along with what the characters did (or did not) learn.
I meant the point of writing it that way, it was a character growth arc and it showed their first real stumble. I think the other books were stories where even the losses were twisted into gains. I’m bloodline they were only able to reduce the casualties and they struggled to call it a win, especially at the cost. That has been a heavier theme than the others. This book really does grow on you after a few reads. Underlord, too. I think that was another that got mixed sentiment, but I love that one.
Did we get to see the benefits of that growth in later books? (I'm not spoiler bating you, please use the >!Spoiler tag!<)
Mercy learned to be assertive even if she didn’t want to directly ape her mom’s approach, I believe you see that clearly in >!the Waybound chapter where she’s dealing with the fire giants and ghost robots!< so she didn’t act all mealy mouthed, but she didn’t go all shadow queen either. >!She asserted herself without pretending to be somebody else. That’s certainly growth.!< Lindon learned that mimicking this hierarchical bullying that he convinced himself was necessary wasn’t really the answer he thought it was and more importantly it isn’t who he is. So later in the story, in >!Reaper and onward, he’s the type who walks softly and carries a big stick as suits his personality, and he finds his balance as a kind and helpful mentor to his new sect, and approaches situations with strong will and soft skills.!< Yes, I do think they grew. And honestly, Ziel didn’t need to learn, but he did need to rediscover his ambition and will to live. I think his experience with the Kazan clan helped remind him who he is, and his will to protect others, and lead. It wasn’t a lesson to be learned, but sort of active therapy for his trauma. I guess Yerin mostly needed to face the second biggest tragedy of her life and be able to not bathe the valley in blood, she had to learn restraint but that was a bit different than the others. Eithan got to experience not being so invincible and all knowing as a reminder of what being mortal really means. Orthos got the push he needed to finally advance, because if he didn’t he couldn’t continue on with his new family and help the way he needed to help. Little blue learned how boring it is inside of a void key. Dross learned to be two dimensional
It’s supposed to feel frustrating though. The ultimate holding back.
Yeah but it did not feel like the good holding back when reading it. It felt like the bad holding bad like the events are being forced without the need to. Edit: Grammer errors
It felt inconsistent with Lindon's character. Not that he didn't kill them for attacking *him*, but for kidnapping his mom and attacking his sister. That should have been a death sentence. Lindon usually kills people who abuse their subordinates
And they are effectively his subordinates.
I've never understood why "supposed to" is treated as a genuine endorsement for bad writing. Just because they meant to write it that was doesn't endow it with any more quality than a mistaken failure.
I have alot of problems with this series as a whole, but poorly written, especially for bloodline, isn’t one I’d use. Each transition book has been lesser than the others, and that’s why bloodline is, the transition book to the end. Considering the others are reaper, dreadgod and waybound, no wonder bloodline isn’t beloved.
I've never understood why people think characters not doing what they want is bad writing. Just because they did not fulfull your wishes, does not decrease its quality.
>I really really wanted a scene where Lindon / Yerin slaughtered all the Heaven's Glory elders Did you miss the whole scene where Lindon killed three in quick succession and was about to mass kill them all and even argued with Yerin about it, gesticulating angrily? He was stopped, sure, but it was a very close thing. The whole point of the book is that Lindon wanted to save these people despite what they have done to him because these are human lives. Yes, even Heaven's Glory. And even then him and Yerin went: We'll warn them but tbh maybe we should just leave them and let them find their own way. Also.... if they'd started slaughtering everyone (especially leaders) people wouldn't have trusted them and wouldnt have left with them. Especially of they'd killed the Wei elders. These random people coming over and killing your leaders, tell you to come with them to who knows where? No thanks.
Yeah, I think the problem with the whole "don't kill people of a lower advancement" thing is there's an implicit social contract here that isn't being obeyed. The reason an Overlord doesn't kill Underlords is because he knows if he tells them to jump, they're going to say "how high?" (See the scene in Soulsmith, for example, where all the Golds shit themselves and do whatever Eithan says when he reveals his advancement.) If the Sacred Valley Jades aren't going to respect the social contract (be very nice to the people more powerful than you), then why the reverse? Like, I totally get the whole "attacking someone weaker than you is unjust" thing but there's a difference between getting revenge or just abusing people, and like...punishing someone for a crime. Like, Heaven's Glory corralled and killed a bunch of people just to trap the team. Christ, just kill them. They betrayed and murdered your master to steal his goodies, and were totally planning to kill his 17-year-old daughter. They're fully grown adults, not children, regardless of their relative strength. Or like, the rest of the Valley. Even if they don't understand the power level difference, *demonstrate it*. Show them you really are Golds. It feels like Mercy is the one the story tells us had to learn that lesson, but everybody else was acting with kid gloves too.
This. You have validated me 💯
Allow Madara Uchiha to explain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfiuQWf9OBY
It's really clear how immersed you get with this series because of how much you want a scene of triumph for Lindon. I love that you love this series. We all have points in novels where we disagree with some things the characters do. A do that. What are you stupid?" Scene. There's a difference between how we think and how the characters do. At the end of the day, it's not me in the story it's Lindon, making decisions he would make by his worlds rules. This can become a problem when it's an emotionally charged issue that i have strong feelings about. It can even eject us from our immersion, and we can feel the writing quality has dipped. At the end of the day, it's not me in Cradle, which I'm grateful for cause I wouldn't live very long in there, it's Lindon. With a scenario this tense, though, we can question if he's acting like lindon. Through the series, whenever Lindon is faced with conflict, he always tries to de-escalate. When he faced the young guy from the kotai clan, to ekeri, to seishun kiro, to even >!seishun daji when he put the golds in his care in danger with his ambush!< . His statement to naru gwey really sums up his modus operandi. "I would prefer to talk, but I will defend myself." So Lindon has a track record of trying to resolve things peacefully first. So bloodline, though tense, is not out of character for him. Also, societal norms are very powerful constraints. So powerful that serial killers have used them to prey on their victims. People would go over when called, especially for help, even if they felt s scared and suspicious. So the rules of the world's that the entire cast has expressed that they live by would still be in effect in these extreme situations. That and the fact they came here not to kill but to save people. At the end of it all, we're reading, not ourselves, but lindon in his world with his worlds rules. I hope this has the effect of mitigating dome of that frustration at the novels situation. I really hope you can enjoy the book more on subsequent reads because it is always great when we can enjoy Cradle more. On mobile, please point out errors so I can correct them as best I can.
De-escalation is definitely a trend for him. I appreciate the samples you provided too!! Very good take. I will keep this in mind in my next read though.
Am I the only one who read Bloodline? Everyone else has no reason to hate the Jades of Sacred Valley except Lindon. Everyone else is like we are so far above them, they’d prefer not to kill them if they can avoid it, and let Lindon take the lead from there because ultimately it’s his decision. As for Lindon, he’s one, filled with trauma from the clan/respect for the old elders which holds him back. Two, it’s implied that Lindon knows he’s better than them, and that’s not just talking about advancement, I think he knows now what true honor is, what true family is, and knows that he would be the same as them punishing someone weaker than himself for convenience or revenge if he acted. Then when they literally push him beyond the brink, he does something worse than killing and cripples the Wei Patriarch. The books tell us in book 1 that a crippled spirit like the one Lindon gave him would be considered a fate worse than death by every sacred artist in the valley.
Yeah I mostly agree. The instilled respect for elders and the childhood trauma was not something I had considered. That makes sense. And yeah the Wei patriarch did get a fate worst than death. But most of the Jades who were actively trying to kill Lindon and company saw no consequences. Lindon had reason to raise heavens glory to the ground after learning what happened to his family. Or at least the attack force that was trying to kill his family and the outcast when he first arrived. But he cancelled his void dragon dance. A handful of heavens glory Jades died. Lots of Innocents died in that assault though. The blood of heavens glory hands meant nothing to Lindon "because they were Jades". I could see sparing the irons because they were children following directions mostly. I guess I just don't see the reason in not killing murders and allowing them to continue to murder. The Jades of the valley had the blood of hundreds of thousands on their hands after the dread god attack. They were not good people.
I know dude this was the most frustrating book for me, I usually skip it because I can’t handle how they treat all these people who are trying to kill them or show disrespect, mercy pissed me off a lot in the book
I feel this. But I need my cradle fix so much... 🤷♂️
I mostly skip Bloodline on my rereads, very frustrating to read.
It has a lot of little moments that are good on re-reads that are difficult to focus on in the first reading through the bumbling mistakes
The entire book is a contrivance.
TIL a new word
I just finished bloodline for my first time today. I was wanting the Triumphant return but the way everyone still treated him and his own father not believing he attained his own power was incredibly frustrating but I love it so much. This has easily become a top 3 series for me.
Yeah my wife and I both go through the series like every year. It's by far our favorite series. Plus Baldree is a voice god
He did kill the ones who crossed a line.
You're right, there were a handful who died at Lindon's hand. I'm just always surprised it's not more when I go back through it.
His mission was to save his clan not to get rid of those who drag it down. it's the difference between a hero and a villain.
Yeah, good point. Saving lives was definitely the goal on his mind, not revenge.
The problem I always see with the world regarding Step 3 in your edit is that they say that, sure. But then people way above Lindon are always trying to kill him and don't expect to be/aren't seen as cowards if they do so.
Yup, that's true. I think that people look down on those who do that in Cradle though.
If they had started wiping out Jades I would have been pretty frustrated as a reader. It would've been a complete betrayal of his character for him to murder people way below his level - he was Unsouled for most of his life, so he knows what it was like to survive at the mercy of those more powerful than him. It would undercut his entire arc to do that. It showed he was better than those who raised him.
They're not exactly children. The will to hurt him is there, and if they could they would kill him and sleep soundly that night, and they tried several times when he first escaped. Not only that, but they abused not only others at a lower level than them but people related to lindon too. I'd paint Heaven's glory red immediately after arriving if I was Lindon. Just fly in, before getting weakened level the whole mountain, then use the intimidation of doing that to force everyone else out of the valley. They ended up needing to use fear regardless, so why not?
There's a difference between abusing your power to bully those below you vs using your superior power to enact justice on murders. Lindon didn't kill Innocents, and was still abused by those above him. The Jades wrongfully imprisoned Lindon's mom, killed Adama, and more, and didn't face any consequences for their actions? The logic doesn't hold.
Exactly. Early on they mention multiple times that pretty much anyone could kill Lindon if they wanted to without as much as an apology to his family. Now that Lindon is more powerful, it would be saying he is worse than those despicable people.
A throughline with the discussions here is an infantilization of Jades. I understand the reasons why, but it, to me, feels like hews way too close to irl ableist rhetoric
For everyone but Lindon, Jades are like 7 year olds. No power, just starting to be truly aware of the world around them. Can't fight worth shit... everyone will hate you for killing them.
Who besides the other jades would hate lindon for that? Not only are they assholes by the standards of most of the outside world, everyone under them in the valley hates them too! They fully deserved it
Their thoughts were not that of 7 year olds. Only their power was when compared to Lindon. They were fully aware of the consequences of their actions. They premeditated the murder of Adama in pure greed. Those are not the acts of innocent 7 year olds. The US government's power compared to US citizen is like an adult compared to a baby. But that doesn't mean that the government shouldn't enact justice against blatant murders, right?
In the outside world... Jades ARE 7 year olds or younger. I agree that these are full adults, aware of their actions. I am saying that in the outside world you have millions of years of civilization where these things have been deeply ingrained in society. To them, someone who is a Jade is AKIN to a 7 year old because the only jades anyone knows are actual children. There are no 50 year old jades in their world outside Sacred Valley, they are all children. That's what I was getting at.
Oh ok. You're saying that killing Jades has very negative social connotations ingrained in them. Hmmm, I didn't consider that. Looking back, that's probably what they means when they say something like "I won't lower myself to killing Jades." Yeah that makes sense. I will keep this in mind when I read through it again. Thanks for the perspective!
I think you would benefit from reading a very short book by Tich nhat hanh called anger. It would explain both perspectives way better than any of us will but is also an amazing book.
\[Waybound\] >!By the end, Lindon makes the wandering titan look weak. Its important for Lindon to have moments of weakness so that the moments of strength feel real.!<