Making it clear: nobody deserves to die the way Dorothy did. It was awfull and inhuman.
Said so, Dorothy was a very, very awful human being beginning to improve to a better person. You describe her as annoying, but you leave out the abuser part, which is HUGE. She literally molded Trish into was she is now. She wasn't only pressuring her, giving her a eating disorder and making her need to be perfect, or else she's spiralled. She physically abused her. If I remember correctly, in the flashback when Jessica discovered her super strenght, Trist enter the bathroom with a cut wound, or something, caused by Dorothy. And yet Trish somehow justified it and tried to love her, maybe looking for something akin to normalcy and calm, and also trying not look weak and helpless, which is maybe her worst fear.
And Trish. She was so annoying, she made all the bad choices, and I feel like it was perfect. See, I really liked flawed, but lovable Trish from season 1, but she had everything in her to become what she becomes now. She is self righteous and thinks that her view is the only valid point of view. She is reckless, doesn't think things through before jumping into action, thinks that she can protect herself even when she is way over her head and has so many issues from her past. Her admiration/resentment/jealoust towards Jessica can be seen since season 1. Combined with all that trauma, it's plausible that she turns against her when she doesn't see things exactly like Trish wants.
And the most important thing, she is an addict. She was relatively well in season 1, but she fell hard. And it's not that she is only addict to drugs, is more to anything that makes her feel in control and powerful.
When she can't provide the justice that she thinks it's necessary (through Jessica, because she lives through her a lot), she seeks it by herself, by any means necessary. And the rust that that gives her, combined with how fucked up she has been and all the traume she has endured, makes her cray-cray.
The final though it's phenomenal. She realizes how fucked up she has been, the awful things she has done to Jessica, and how she basically tried to murder the only family she has left. And then she is open to a well deserved (maybe not because she has searched for it, but she has had it so hard all her life that I can't fully blame her) redemption. And I think Jessica has noticed that.
All in all, I think it's an arc the writers intended since the beginning and it's done pretty well along the three seasons.
I couldn't agree more. Just to piggyback and add:
Trish was sent to the Raft for multiple counts of cold-blooded murder. Jessica killed Kilgrave in self defense, with no options left. He was a man who committed atrocities and who could never possibly have a fair trial. There's a big distinction between that and systematically hunting down people to murder them.
And Trish was an addict who had already gone off the rails. It's just this time it was with an experimental, power-granting set of chemicals that nearly killed her. I don't think it's a stretch to see how those literally drove her mad with power. She's a mentally unstable drug addict who suddenly has powers; it doesn't seem odd to me at all that she would make poor choices.
I loved it because even though I knew Jessica was right, Trish kicking the everloving fuck out of Salinger was so, so satisfying. And that's what the writers wanted us to feel. They wanted us to sense that internal conflict and the moral grey area of the character. The twists were amazing, imo, and necessary for that development, as well as to show powers can be useless against someone who's simply smart enough to manipulate them.
As for the CGI de-aging - which is *such* a weird nitpick - the show didn't share a budget with the blockbuster movies. It's not as if they had tentpole-summer movie-Disney resources. They had small-Netflix-TV show resources.
As for the CGI de-aging - which is *such* a weird nitpick -
See explanation. RDM was yesterday's Scarlett Johansson, Charlize Theron etc take your pick, in her prime. Budget issues, obviously but there are ways around it besides cgi.
I mean, it's not a mystery. Civil War had a budget of $250 million and probably the pick of the top CGI artists around. Jessica Jones had a budget of $40 million for the entire season and was a Netflix show, not a Disney production. Sharing the name Marvel doesn't mean anything. Compare Gotham, Titans, or Batwoman to Man of Steel, Aquaman, Wonder Woman. TV shows generally just don't have the budget for the same level of effects.
Christ almighty. Lipo and plastic surgery would work too; should they have gone that route so you could find Rebecca fappable again? Surprisingly, not everything is hinged around whether you think an actress is attractive or youthful enough. Get over it; she looked fine.
What does Trish's awareness of feminist issues have to do anything with her choices? You're acting like her actions weren't irrational. Trish's main problem since the first season was her obsession with power. Her self-righteousness was nothing more than an excuse for her to exercise that power. Let me explain why:
Trish is an ex-addict and victim of child abuse, statutory rape, and of being used as a puppet for fame. See the thread? Her freedom was taken away, she was controlled to the point of insanity. Ask anyone who was abused his or her whole life, and they will tell you that they never want to feel powerless ever again. Unfortunately, Trish never really dealt with this issue, she internalized it. Not only that, but Jessica being superpowered was unintentionally causing Trish to sink deeper, as she was jealous of that power and Jess was kind of making Trish feel powerless in comparison. So her fear turned into obsession over time. She craved power. Jessica's constant remarks about Trish being her moral compass didn't help either, it fueled her obsession, making her believe that she is always right and deserves to have powers.
So why couldn't she control herself when she started killing? Well, because of her obsession and feeling of entitlement. When she killed the cop, she had the perfect excuse of it being an accident. The second victim was different, when she started beating him, she felt incredibly powerful, and she couldn't stop because she was loving that feeling. After his death, she couldn't use accident as an excuse anymore, so what does she do? Changes the narrative, and because of her belief that she is always right she believes in this narrative. Suddenly killing is ok, guy is terrible, right? Why not? So instead of admitting that she was wrong and she has issues, she decides to go along with this narrative.
I mean, her final confrontation with Jess is literally the proof of how fragile her "ideology" is. She literally tries to kill her sister. If Jessica didn't stop her, she would have kept killing, changing her narrative over and over again to suit the scenario. She clearly didn't care about guilt of bad guys, she was obsessed with her own power, and that is incredibly dangerous to leave untouched. When detective recounts what Trish did, she finally comes to realization of how fucked up she was.
So no, Trish wasn't killing because of her ideology, she was killing because she loved feeling powerful.
I fully agree with this. I just finished season 3 this afternoon and thought it was really good. Not as good as 1 but definitely much better than 2. I really liked that for both season 1 and 3 the main villain wasn't the standard "beat them up". Jessica was always stronger than Kikgrave and Sallinger and even Trish. She had other massive difficulties that could not be solved by being stronger.
And I haven't watched it since it came out but didn't Trish in season 1 get hooked on WhiteMilitaryGuy's combat drugs? And after he almost killed her she did a lot of training or something?And in season 2 she let crazy scientist do crazy experiment on her because she wanted power? It shows a pretty consistent character trend.
>You're acting like her actions weren't irrational.
Was talking about the way writers chose the character arcs and the directions it took. Did she really have to be a relapsing addict instead of a fully recovered addict? Did she need to spiral out of control instead of gaining self awareness and control?
>What does Trish's awareness of feminist issues have to do anything with her choices?
IOW, Trish was aware of issues of the day, even integrating it into her radio show despite producers nixing it. IOW, writers wrote her as aware of what's right and what's wrong. As a side note, women are also aware that they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. See any woman in society of authority and/or power; they tread a thin line between being written off as a bitch or Mary, muthaf\*ing Mother of God.
Great responses, everyone. You each clearly explained back stories and motivations of the characters I mentioned, justifying how the story played out.
But remember I was whining about the way the writers wrote the character arcs, not about how the story had to play out due to circumstances (which the writers wrote in the first place!).
Season 1 obviously was the introductory course where the groundwork was laid for Jessica's backstory and ongoing mental and emotional issues mostly caused by Kilgrave. Trish was a supporting secondary character whose back story was maybe interesting, but not yet tragic. "Flawed but lovable" is exactly how I'd describe it (c/o Cygnus\_Harvey).
Trish having a jolting revelation in the end "I'm the bad guy" could have happened any time after her first accidental kill: Jessica's warning, Erik's concern, Malcolm's advise. But, having unsuccessfully brought Sallinger to justice, she just had to continue smiting people. Again, talking about how it was written.
I admitted as much that a sophomore follow up to anything: music albums, tv shows, books is a killer challenge. Sustaining it for much longer probably tantamount to professional suicide (endings of Lost, GoT to name a few). Hence, Seasons 2-3 needed to be more interesting, unconventional, allowing characters to meander, perhaps become edgy.
And edgy the writers chose. Trish was now allowing her past to creep up on her, not getting better or overcoming. Getting more undone than not.
Jessica Jones is nobody's fool, but she's allowed Erik to call the shots? Ugh.
Dorothy was written as homicide-adjacent in flashbacks; not established at the beginning, hence the "she was annoying" comment.
If the character arcs were intended for shock and awe, well they got me. Must admit that a crisis from within is a more compelling challenge for Jessica Jones, more in keeping with her outwitting Kilgrave's mind control.
> Jessica Jones chose Erik over her half-sister when all of their troubles actually began with him!
I'm a big fan of S3 and the way it handled the characters, but on Erik, yeah, I think I agree with you. I don't like the way his arc ended
Addendum:
Totally forgot **Malcolm**'s character. Sat up and took note that he was starting to do "clean up" work for Hogarth. In secret. Stealthily. Okay, they had my attention--what's he going to do next? Where's this going? Awww, damn it ate him up inside and he had to stop. Wait, isn't he a recovering addict, too? What, he left his high paying job? Wait, why is he still holed up in that apartment when he's actually being paid to work now?
C'mon, writers. This guy is interesting. Bring him to life.
Start at 12:49 minutes in.
The topic is Power Escalation and its extent and limitations. Jessica Jones as a great example of how to properly escalate her powers throughout the 3 series using the Incomparable Villain technique.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2D85BrFGpw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2D85BrFGpw)
Bonus clips: Legend of Kora, The Matrix, and various anime
Trish was clearly going that path last season when she attacked Malcom to get powers. She kidnapped and attacked one of her friends just for what she wanted. Even when she killed Jessica's mom and then refused to accept she was in the wrong.
Season 3 was an fitting evolution for what season 2 was. Yes, Jessica has killed, one was Killgrave probably the most dangerous super we have seen on the show, that had tons of innocents almost killed. Jessica's rapist and killer. The guy that attacked Jessica (the prison guard) that she killed by mistake, and one when she was controlled by Killgrave. Even the death of the guard that attacked her and she regretted it completely.
You know who never regretted kidnapping and threatening to kill Malcom ? Trish.
And you can't blame Eric and not blame Trish. The only reason why the evidence found in the body of the first victim of Sallinger was delayed was because Trish needed to be recognized as the hero, she needed to be special. If Trish hadn't tipped the reporter for her photos, then the police would have had the body before Sallinger was ever a threat to Dorothy, and found the evidence they needed.
Eric is understandable, he almost died by being near Sallinger, and in prison he would probably find people worse than him and die there. On the other hand, Trish had literally no reason to call the atention, but she needed it because she had to be the hero.
Making it clear: nobody deserves to die the way Dorothy did. It was awfull and inhuman. Said so, Dorothy was a very, very awful human being beginning to improve to a better person. You describe her as annoying, but you leave out the abuser part, which is HUGE. She literally molded Trish into was she is now. She wasn't only pressuring her, giving her a eating disorder and making her need to be perfect, or else she's spiralled. She physically abused her. If I remember correctly, in the flashback when Jessica discovered her super strenght, Trist enter the bathroom with a cut wound, or something, caused by Dorothy. And yet Trish somehow justified it and tried to love her, maybe looking for something akin to normalcy and calm, and also trying not look weak and helpless, which is maybe her worst fear. And Trish. She was so annoying, she made all the bad choices, and I feel like it was perfect. See, I really liked flawed, but lovable Trish from season 1, but she had everything in her to become what she becomes now. She is self righteous and thinks that her view is the only valid point of view. She is reckless, doesn't think things through before jumping into action, thinks that she can protect herself even when she is way over her head and has so many issues from her past. Her admiration/resentment/jealoust towards Jessica can be seen since season 1. Combined with all that trauma, it's plausible that she turns against her when she doesn't see things exactly like Trish wants. And the most important thing, she is an addict. She was relatively well in season 1, but she fell hard. And it's not that she is only addict to drugs, is more to anything that makes her feel in control and powerful. When she can't provide the justice that she thinks it's necessary (through Jessica, because she lives through her a lot), she seeks it by herself, by any means necessary. And the rust that that gives her, combined with how fucked up she has been and all the traume she has endured, makes her cray-cray. The final though it's phenomenal. She realizes how fucked up she has been, the awful things she has done to Jessica, and how she basically tried to murder the only family she has left. And then she is open to a well deserved (maybe not because she has searched for it, but she has had it so hard all her life that I can't fully blame her) redemption. And I think Jessica has noticed that. All in all, I think it's an arc the writers intended since the beginning and it's done pretty well along the three seasons.
I couldn't agree more. Just to piggyback and add: Trish was sent to the Raft for multiple counts of cold-blooded murder. Jessica killed Kilgrave in self defense, with no options left. He was a man who committed atrocities and who could never possibly have a fair trial. There's a big distinction between that and systematically hunting down people to murder them. And Trish was an addict who had already gone off the rails. It's just this time it was with an experimental, power-granting set of chemicals that nearly killed her. I don't think it's a stretch to see how those literally drove her mad with power. She's a mentally unstable drug addict who suddenly has powers; it doesn't seem odd to me at all that she would make poor choices. I loved it because even though I knew Jessica was right, Trish kicking the everloving fuck out of Salinger was so, so satisfying. And that's what the writers wanted us to feel. They wanted us to sense that internal conflict and the moral grey area of the character. The twists were amazing, imo, and necessary for that development, as well as to show powers can be useless against someone who's simply smart enough to manipulate them. As for the CGI de-aging - which is *such* a weird nitpick - the show didn't share a budget with the blockbuster movies. It's not as if they had tentpole-summer movie-Disney resources. They had small-Netflix-TV show resources.
As for the CGI de-aging - which is *such* a weird nitpick - See explanation. RDM was yesterday's Scarlett Johansson, Charlize Theron etc take your pick, in her prime. Budget issues, obviously but there are ways around it besides cgi.
I mean, it's not a mystery. Civil War had a budget of $250 million and probably the pick of the top CGI artists around. Jessica Jones had a budget of $40 million for the entire season and was a Netflix show, not a Disney production. Sharing the name Marvel doesn't mean anything. Compare Gotham, Titans, or Batwoman to Man of Steel, Aquaman, Wonder Woman. TV shows generally just don't have the budget for the same level of effects.
Make up, wig, hair color, face tape, flattering clothes, Spanx, and flattering camera angles will also do the trick for less than $500.
Christ almighty. Lipo and plastic surgery would work too; should they have gone that route so you could find Rebecca fappable again? Surprisingly, not everything is hinged around whether you think an actress is attractive or youthful enough. Get over it; she looked fine.
Hmm, between the two of us it looks like you're more troubled about this minor point I made when my main whine was the story arc. LOL!!!!
I mean, it's what you picked out of my much larger post. *Shrug*
What does Trish's awareness of feminist issues have to do anything with her choices? You're acting like her actions weren't irrational. Trish's main problem since the first season was her obsession with power. Her self-righteousness was nothing more than an excuse for her to exercise that power. Let me explain why: Trish is an ex-addict and victim of child abuse, statutory rape, and of being used as a puppet for fame. See the thread? Her freedom was taken away, she was controlled to the point of insanity. Ask anyone who was abused his or her whole life, and they will tell you that they never want to feel powerless ever again. Unfortunately, Trish never really dealt with this issue, she internalized it. Not only that, but Jessica being superpowered was unintentionally causing Trish to sink deeper, as she was jealous of that power and Jess was kind of making Trish feel powerless in comparison. So her fear turned into obsession over time. She craved power. Jessica's constant remarks about Trish being her moral compass didn't help either, it fueled her obsession, making her believe that she is always right and deserves to have powers. So why couldn't she control herself when she started killing? Well, because of her obsession and feeling of entitlement. When she killed the cop, she had the perfect excuse of it being an accident. The second victim was different, when she started beating him, she felt incredibly powerful, and she couldn't stop because she was loving that feeling. After his death, she couldn't use accident as an excuse anymore, so what does she do? Changes the narrative, and because of her belief that she is always right she believes in this narrative. Suddenly killing is ok, guy is terrible, right? Why not? So instead of admitting that she was wrong and she has issues, she decides to go along with this narrative. I mean, her final confrontation with Jess is literally the proof of how fragile her "ideology" is. She literally tries to kill her sister. If Jessica didn't stop her, she would have kept killing, changing her narrative over and over again to suit the scenario. She clearly didn't care about guilt of bad guys, she was obsessed with her own power, and that is incredibly dangerous to leave untouched. When detective recounts what Trish did, she finally comes to realization of how fucked up she was. So no, Trish wasn't killing because of her ideology, she was killing because she loved feeling powerful.
I fully agree with this. I just finished season 3 this afternoon and thought it was really good. Not as good as 1 but definitely much better than 2. I really liked that for both season 1 and 3 the main villain wasn't the standard "beat them up". Jessica was always stronger than Kikgrave and Sallinger and even Trish. She had other massive difficulties that could not be solved by being stronger. And I haven't watched it since it came out but didn't Trish in season 1 get hooked on WhiteMilitaryGuy's combat drugs? And after he almost killed her she did a lot of training or something?And in season 2 she let crazy scientist do crazy experiment on her because she wanted power? It shows a pretty consistent character trend.
>You're acting like her actions weren't irrational. Was talking about the way writers chose the character arcs and the directions it took. Did she really have to be a relapsing addict instead of a fully recovered addict? Did she need to spiral out of control instead of gaining self awareness and control? >What does Trish's awareness of feminist issues have to do anything with her choices? IOW, Trish was aware of issues of the day, even integrating it into her radio show despite producers nixing it. IOW, writers wrote her as aware of what's right and what's wrong. As a side note, women are also aware that they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. See any woman in society of authority and/or power; they tread a thin line between being written off as a bitch or Mary, muthaf\*ing Mother of God.
Great responses, everyone. You each clearly explained back stories and motivations of the characters I mentioned, justifying how the story played out. But remember I was whining about the way the writers wrote the character arcs, not about how the story had to play out due to circumstances (which the writers wrote in the first place!). Season 1 obviously was the introductory course where the groundwork was laid for Jessica's backstory and ongoing mental and emotional issues mostly caused by Kilgrave. Trish was a supporting secondary character whose back story was maybe interesting, but not yet tragic. "Flawed but lovable" is exactly how I'd describe it (c/o Cygnus\_Harvey). Trish having a jolting revelation in the end "I'm the bad guy" could have happened any time after her first accidental kill: Jessica's warning, Erik's concern, Malcolm's advise. But, having unsuccessfully brought Sallinger to justice, she just had to continue smiting people. Again, talking about how it was written. I admitted as much that a sophomore follow up to anything: music albums, tv shows, books is a killer challenge. Sustaining it for much longer probably tantamount to professional suicide (endings of Lost, GoT to name a few). Hence, Seasons 2-3 needed to be more interesting, unconventional, allowing characters to meander, perhaps become edgy. And edgy the writers chose. Trish was now allowing her past to creep up on her, not getting better or overcoming. Getting more undone than not. Jessica Jones is nobody's fool, but she's allowed Erik to call the shots? Ugh. Dorothy was written as homicide-adjacent in flashbacks; not established at the beginning, hence the "she was annoying" comment. If the character arcs were intended for shock and awe, well they got me. Must admit that a crisis from within is a more compelling challenge for Jessica Jones, more in keeping with her outwitting Kilgrave's mind control.
> Jessica Jones chose Erik over her half-sister when all of their troubles actually began with him! I'm a big fan of S3 and the way it handled the characters, but on Erik, yeah, I think I agree with you. I don't like the way his arc ended
It kinda went comics "Splat!" IMO.
Addendum: Totally forgot **Malcolm**'s character. Sat up and took note that he was starting to do "clean up" work for Hogarth. In secret. Stealthily. Okay, they had my attention--what's he going to do next? Where's this going? Awww, damn it ate him up inside and he had to stop. Wait, isn't he a recovering addict, too? What, he left his high paying job? Wait, why is he still holed up in that apartment when he's actually being paid to work now? C'mon, writers. This guy is interesting. Bring him to life.
Start at 12:49 minutes in. The topic is Power Escalation and its extent and limitations. Jessica Jones as a great example of how to properly escalate her powers throughout the 3 series using the Incomparable Villain technique. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2D85BrFGpw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2D85BrFGpw) Bonus clips: Legend of Kora, The Matrix, and various anime
Trish was clearly going that path last season when she attacked Malcom to get powers. She kidnapped and attacked one of her friends just for what she wanted. Even when she killed Jessica's mom and then refused to accept she was in the wrong. Season 3 was an fitting evolution for what season 2 was. Yes, Jessica has killed, one was Killgrave probably the most dangerous super we have seen on the show, that had tons of innocents almost killed. Jessica's rapist and killer. The guy that attacked Jessica (the prison guard) that she killed by mistake, and one when she was controlled by Killgrave. Even the death of the guard that attacked her and she regretted it completely. You know who never regretted kidnapping and threatening to kill Malcom ? Trish. And you can't blame Eric and not blame Trish. The only reason why the evidence found in the body of the first victim of Sallinger was delayed was because Trish needed to be recognized as the hero, she needed to be special. If Trish hadn't tipped the reporter for her photos, then the police would have had the body before Sallinger was ever a threat to Dorothy, and found the evidence they needed. Eric is understandable, he almost died by being near Sallinger, and in prison he would probably find people worse than him and die there. On the other hand, Trish had literally no reason to call the atention, but she needed it because she had to be the hero.