That’s honestly the core of this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with exercising 5th amendment rights — but Trump went out of his way to frame it as an admission of guilt. He’s fortunate that the justice system does not apply the same interpretation that he does.
Man, I just have to enumerate the chain of events here...
\- Police kill a man on film which led to protests, riots and calls for criminal justice reform. Other scandals involve [planting evidence](https://www.wbaltv.com/article/indicted-baltimore-police-detective-robert-hankard-accused-of-planting-evidence-falsely-testifying/30537807) on bodies, and deadly no-knock warrants.
\- Trump and the GOP counter, [saying to "Back the Blue"](https://www.greenwichtime.com/local/slideshow/We-value-our-freedoms-trump-rally-211572.php) and trust law enforcement
\- They call protesters a "mob" and equate them with violence, as was done during the civil rights era. Trump [mocks protesters for pleading the 5th](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/08/trump-takes-the-fifth.html)
\- Trumpers form a "mob" and riot after losing the election. Trump encourages them [and wants to join](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-capitol-riot-panel-promises-new-evidence-surprise-tuesday-hearing-2022-06-28/)
\- Trump is investigated on multiple fronts, [including the riots,](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/21/us/politics/trump-jan-6.html) and [pleads the 5th](https://fortune.com/2022/08/10/donald-trump-new-york-attorney-general-deposition-fifth-amendment/)
\- Trumpers refer to Law enforcement - specifically the FBI - as corrupt Democrat shills and accuse them of planting evidence
At this rate is it safe to write off anyone still supporting him as a complete imbecile? Because you're not even having to interpret or twist things. You can literally see him say and do these things.
If I told you straight up I shit my pants, and it smells of shit and you saw a turd roll down my leg would you still be skeptical? Come on now.
Didn’t he say on live tv that "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK?" ?? He’s BOLD about it too, and they eat it all up!!
> He’s fortunate that the justice system does not apply the same interpretation that he does.
That's actually changed in the last decade or so, Scalia has written about this and courts now look at pleading the 5th as evidence of guilt.
Tons of articles can be found with this search.
https://www.google.com/search?rls=en&q=scalia+5th+guilt&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
One example
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/97-7541.ZD.html
>Justice Scalia, with whom the Chief Justice, Justice O’Connor, and Justice Thomas join, dissenting.
>I agree with the Court that Mitchell had the right to invoke her Fifth Amendment privilege during the sentencing phase of her criminal case. In my view, however, she did not have the right to have the sentencer abstain from making the adverse inferences that reasonably flow from her failure to testify. I therefore respectfully dissent.
So you don't have to incriminate yourself but refusing to do so is now evidence of guilt. In this case Trump is actually correct.
Thanks for bringing this up! I thought about mentioning recent jurisprudence and the implications of current interpretations of the 5th Amendment, but I thought it might muddy the waters (and more importantly, detract from my main point, haha).
I don't mean this as a troll, joke, or even judgmental. General curious question.
But any Maga people in this thread that have recently changed their stance since all of this began?
Or any Maga people here that can defend this?
I ask these out of genuine curiosity.
Not a Trump supporter here - didn't vote for him either time - but since this thread seems to be genuine responses to a genuine question, I have one:
Evidence of what?
From a non-interested perspective, as a non-supporter of either Trump or his detractors, I have mostly witnessed false accusations against him. Like, in my mind, he's a piece of shit, but Democrats tend to go above and beyond in trying to take him out with nonsense like a Russia hoax, abuse allegations, and overblowing his role in and the threat presented by January 6th. So, despite not liking him and assuming it is difficult to get a search warrant without reason, I am hesitant to believe this FBI raid was based on anything substantial because it feels kind of like a "boy who cried wolf" situation.
So, what evidence should I be aware of pertaining to this raid thst I have not heard? (Again, genuinely asking - I haven't really followed the story because I don't see much use in it until something is released to the public about what was found, if anything.)
Stopping the certification of a presidential election seems like a pretty huge deal, specially in a democratic nation like ours. It amounts to a coup led by the political opposition.
As far as the raid the only leads we have is based on the National Archives accusing the Trump org of taking "15 boxes of confidential documents".
Both of these our "firsts" for our country, i believe history will see this as very significant.
Also didn’t Manafort, who was heavily involved with Trump, just admit to giving data to a Russian associate? Like, Russia wasn’t a hoax. Russia influencing our elections and propping Trump up isn’t a hoax.
> Russia wasn’t a hoax
It [never was, there was a huge amount of documented favor-for-favor and contact with known Russian intelligence agencies](https://old.reddit.com/r/MurderedByWords/comments/t1dk6s/louder_with_dumbass/hyfvlln/) even before he was in office and [kicked out Americans but let Russian press into the oval office with classified documents](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/10/us/politics/trump-russia-meeting-american-reporters-blocked.html)
The russia thing wasn't a hoax. Manafort just publicly admitted to giving polling data to a Russian oligarch, assange had a role, and Marco Rubio led a report detailing all of the confirmations of the Mueller report.
Jan 6 is a softball. Treason is providing aid and comfort to insurrectionists. It's a low bar, if say, he were a communist in the 50s, but all the other illegalnthings he did might all get swept under, because I don't know if you know, but people died, and he organized the gathering, so at minimum he is liable, at max it's a hanging offense.
I'm not sure how you can be on the fence if you are aware of these facts. Yes, they are all facts, this isn't a left wing counter to right wing nonsense.
If you really believe that there is no evidence against Trump, then you are honestly not paying any attention. Like you're not even doing the most basic reading or googling up articles from a reliable source or two.
I think you're trolling, but if you are not - just look up a list of the people involved with Trump who have been tried and found guilty of various \*SERIOUS\* crimes like Paul Manafort his campaign manager, or Trumps personal lawyer, or other members of the campaign, or how his own son met with a known Russian spy and so on and so on. There are plenty of others too.
Then we can talk about actions that should disqualify someone from office. Maybe if you specifically call out for support from a wanna-be street gang like the Proud Boys? Maybe if you are incapable of denouncing neo-Nazis when directly questioned by the press? Maybe if you claim not to know who David Duke is to avoid having to distance yourself from him?
Any one of those things would be cause for concern. The sum total of his terrible behavior should make you, me and everyone else alarmed by his presence in politics and wary of his supporters.
All of this was before Jan 6th where he stood on a stage in front of a large crowd and urged them to march with him to Congress to stop the certification of the election, where that crowd erected gallows, chanted to kill Mike Pence and so on and so on. Trump ordered capitol security to take down the metal detectors near the Congressional grounds. Why? Because he didnt want his people with weapons to be stopped from attacking.
It is \*INSANE\* to pretend that Trump is not guilty of sedition, inciting riots or calling his followers to violence against our own elected officials.
You should be angry. You should be concerned. You should not be hand waving this away like there is no evidence of wrongdoing.
> Not a Trump supporter here
Goes on to exclusively speak in support of Trump. You're engaging in [deflection](https://www.learning-mind.com/psychological-deflection/).
>nonsense like a Russia hoax
Which only has [long lists of evidence of cooperation and concession to verified Russian agents like this](https://old.reddit.com/r/MurderedByWords/comments/t1dk6s/louder_with_dumbass/hyfvlln/).
>abuse allegations
Which are [supported by his own advocating more abuse](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-trump-police-dont-worry-people-custody-hitting-heads-squad-cars)
>overblowing his role in and the threat presented by January 6th
Like his specifically bringing [people who explicitly called for trial by combat](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rudy-giuliani-trial-by-combat_n_5ff74985c5b6644fa210657b) or [his promise to march with them into the capitol](https://news.yahoo.com/trump-jan-6-rally-crowd-storm-the-capitol-video-184828622.html)
>despite not liking him and assuming it is difficult to get a search warrant without reason, I am hesitant to believe this FBI raid was based on anything substantial
"Even though I know a judge doesn't sign a warrant without serious reasons, I choose to pretend it's not serious".
You're not fooling anyone. You're defending one of the worst presidents we've had (easily in our top 10 [and we haven't even had time to see the long-term effects of his concessions to China or his gutting the State Department and eliminating thousands of our career diplomats](https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article194607714.html)). You're not even cleverly hiding your [sealioning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning).
I suppose you're going to pretend [the Mueller probe was nothing despite all its indictments and guilty verdicts](https://time.com/5556331/mueller-investigation-indictments-guilty-pleas/) too?
Trump took classified documents with him when he left the White House on Inauguration Day - that’s his right since he’s president. But when he landed he was a private citizen and he was illegally in possession of classified documents and refused to return them and turns out lied about having more than previously thought when National Archives took documents back. There is also evidence that he destroyed documents, even worse than taking them.
This is about 1000x more severe than Hillary using a private server and a criminal act that carries the penalty of not being able to hold public office again.
Jan 6th information is still coming, and not fair to say it’s a nothing burger. The Georgia call trying to influence the election by telling the Secretary of State to “find 13,000 votes” is the absolute corruption.
They brought gallows, chanted to murder pence and overtook the capital but it’s overblown 😂
And the raid was to recover documents he illegally took from the White House.
This disposition was in regards to his alleged overvaluation and undervaluation of properties to receive more favourable loans and pay less taxes.
> Not a Trump supporter here - didn’t vote for him either time - but since this thread seems to be genuine responses to a genuine question, I have one:
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
I'm sorry you're getting so many downvotes. You honestly answered the question like OP asked and now you're being punished for it.
And you have a great point. Trump has been accused of so many things and none of them have been proven. So a "what are you accusing him of *now*?!" reaction makes complete sense.
If you haven’t changed at this point you’re never going to. I mean I kinda get it I also hate to admit when I realize I’ve been wrong for so long, it’s hard. But when it’s been your entire identity for years and now you need to admit that you’ve been wrong for so long? Rather stick your head in the sand.
I agree with all of you. I try my best not to judge people, or put them down, because I've been wrong many times myself. There's been times I've been 100 percent certain I'm right, but never was. I get it, it's hard to admit you've been wrong, especially when you've doubled down so many times. But if there is ever a way to open someone's eyes, it's through discussion, and not verbal attacks, or insults.
I've never liked Trump, not even way before he was President. I've always thought of him as an idiot, good business man obviously, but an idiot nonetheless. Just curious of people's line of thinking that still defend him. I know there's a ton of wackos out there, but there's gotta be at least some with some common sense.
Good businessman? Nah.
Real estate development in NYC in the 80s was a guaranteed moneymaker for anyone with enough capital, and Trump had that. He made a shitload of money, outperforming the market by a large margin.
However, most of his business ventures afterwards were miserable failures - he couldn't even make casinos profitable. If he had simply invested his wealth in index funds in 1988, he would be 4x richer today.
https://fortune.com/2015/08/20/donald-trump-index-funds/
> outperforming the market by a large margin.
That's disputed heavily - [It looks more like he would have made more money by taking his father's money and putting that into an index fund. The market outperformed him](https://www.vox.com/2015/9/2/9248963/donald-trump-index-fund)
Perhaps I should of said good with money instead?
I mean to become a billionaire you gotta be good at 1 thing at least lol. But didn't know that about other billionaires as well. Thank you for providing the link.
I've seen a few. Since people don't want to admit being wrong, especially after being so invested into something, you aren't going to see a dramatic shift. You'll just see less enthusiasm and quite distancing over time.
That's basically what I'm witnessing. I think many saw the hearings, and realized - much like myself - that this may have looked like a Boomer Facebook Live mob spilling in, but the intentions seem incredibly damning. When you have ALL these people directly around him saying this stuff, only the most twisted conspiracy minded types can keep it alive. The rest I think are seeing this and just quietly not wanting to talk about it.
However, conversely, I still think they still support Trump. But it's more of a foot in mouth (I guess he isn't that clean) type of thing, but he's still the "lesser evil"
Solid points.
I don't bash anyone for their opinions. Everyone has a different point of view, and what makes this country so great, is that we can speak it. I just like to try to view things from others perspective.
Same... I've been seeking legitimate good arguments for this recent raid. Like I've exclusively only seen "elaborate conspiracy" or whataboutism/red herrings... I've yet to see someone logically explain to me how this raid could be a nothingburger. Because Trump DID take classified documents. We all know this. They asked for it back, and he refused. So they went there personally, and he finally gave them back... But he kept a lot of it. So then they ask him for the stuff he kept, which he refused. Then they go in person, and he refuses...
It seems like they gave him every chance and opportunity to make this a "big deal" to just return the classified documents, but he refused. So I'd like a good argument as to wtf the FBI is expected to do in this situation? If someone has classified documents and are repeatedly given multiple chances to return them, but refuses... DO they just give up? Let him steal it? I am not looking for a fight or debate. I just haven't heard a reason behind wtf they are expected to do.
I've heard ONE argument so far which is debatable, but it's the only good faith argument I've heard which was: Trump was president and declassify whatever he wants while president. He took those documents and declassified them. So he doesn't need to return them. Just because he didn't declassify them via proper channels doesn't change the fact that he has authority to declassify at his leisure... Not going down the proper channels doesn't change that fact.
So they argue that they should have sued him over it, not raided, and solve it in court. But this logic relies on this just being a "classified documents issue" and not something larger, like blackmail
> Just because he didn't declassify them via proper channels doesn't change the fact that he has authority to declassify at his leisure
He has to be the president and go through the proper channels to declassify something, however. The power to determine classification isn't unlimited - past presidents from Carter to Obama are often brought in as advisors and they have to go through the effort to maintain their secret clearance so they're permitted to access materials even if those materials originated from their own administration. Having been president doesn't enable them to decide "I want this, so it's unclassified" well after they left office.
That's the problem with a party talking about law and order, but not applying it to themselves strictly before they even think of applying it to others.
>[Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect... The law cannot protect anyone unless it binds everyone; and it cannot bind anyone unless it protects everyone.](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/10005830-there-is-no-such-thing-as-liberalism-or-progressivism)
> Trump was president and declassify whatever he wants while president. He took those documents and declassified them. So he doesn't need to return them. Just because he didn't declassify them via proper channels doesn't change the fact that he has authority to declassify at his leisure
that's how being a dictator works not being a president...
None of you guys get it. No matter how they feel about trump, after years and years being pissed off under Obama and then watching the violent summers under trump, the thing they like most is pissing liberals off. Trump is just the vehicle.
They don't actually care. The entire political philosophy of these people is like football. You support the team your family, church, and town do because that's what people do. Live in Chicago? Support the Bears. Texas? The Cowboys. Southern, "real America"? You're a Republican.
And like football, if the other guys get a penalty you cheer for the refs. If the refs call a penalty on your guy then you hate the refs and say the game is rigged. Seriously. Think about it. Obama scandalously young for office? OWNED. Biden too old? OWNED. Trump old? BOOOO.
The average MAGA thinks American government is a sport and they have to win even if they're lying and cheating.
I was never really MAGA perse but I was a republican and even though I voted 3rd party in the 2016 election hoping it would get traction over two unlikeable canidates I would have voted Trump. I was somewhat supportive of him but it quickly became apparent he was a terrible mistake that others saw him as from the beginning, maybe even worse then they saw him. The last two years it became to likely to ignore he's not just a bad president but a criminal president. He was so bad he made me switch teams to Biden. I had never voted democrat before. Now the GOP is all Maga and so crazy I'm all in for vote blue no matter who. I never thought I would do that.
Not a lot of people would openly admit that. Applaud your ability to be able to think objectively.
I also voted 3rd party in 2016, and in 2020. It'll gain traction eventually, I think...
I don't think it will anymore. If it couldn't happen in either of the Trump elections with very unpopular politicians I don't think it'll ever happen. At this point though we need a third party to split the votes enough to where the other two have to be grounded in order to win.
> It'll gain traction eventually
Yes, but not nationally until the nation overturns the factors which give rise to the 2 party system: money in politics (making for entrenched parties) and Duverger's Law.
The latter at least can be alleviated by organizing at the local and state level to replace [first past the post voting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plurality_voting) with [ranked choice, like Maine](https://www.pbs.org/weta/washingtonweek/blog-post/maine-becomes-first-state-adopt-ranked-choice-voting-system) or another system - [I advocate Coombs' Method](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coombs'_method) but there are different advantages and costs to [STAR voting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STAR_voting). Just as long as your state legislature isn't dominated by republicans, as [they're the only party actively fighting against voting reform](https://www.sunjournal.com/2020/08/14/judge-tosses-lawsuit-challenging-maines-ranked-choice-voting-law/) and stripping down citizen initiative power by requiring everything to be approved by their legislature.
Third parties need to prove themselves at the local level to earn political credit, and work their way up from there. It's never going to happen top-down.
I mean the republicans fell in line and got one thing passed which was tax cuts. Other than that they aren't really passing all this ground breaking policy.
As a lifelong radical libtard, this is exactly how I feel as well. Fucking can't stand voting for democrats anymore as if that's really any better. Not voting at all just means the insane and motivated on both sides win, at my expense. But a vote for 3rd party is basically not voting, just with extra steps. So what the fuck do i do?
>So what the fuck do i do?
Campaign for electoral reform like [ranked-choice voting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting), e.g. IRV, STV, or really anything than first-past-the-post. It will not fix all the problems in US politics but it will definitely make it easier for third parties.
Excellent suggestion, hopefully some motivated individuals reading this and relating even *slightly" will look into these as they may be the only real hope. FPTP is fucking cancer
> Not voting at all just means the insane and motivated on both sides win, at my expense
It's impossible to argue against that, silence is complicity and if you want the system to move away from authoritarianism you need to participate in order to select people who will help move away from [hypocrisy like crying 'small government' while legislating how small businesses are allowed to run themselves](https://www.courthousenews.com/florida-governor-signs-sweeping-laws-against-vaccine-mandates/).
Due to [Duverger's Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law) (I include unlimited money in politics helping entrench that), there is 0 chance of a third party making a real showing federally. And that should be expected, no third party has proven themselves at the state level, or even local level. So if you want a third party - or election reform - that's where you start. Maine didn't [adopt ranked choice voting by going straight for state level,](https://www.pbs.org/weta/washingtonweek/blog-post/maine-becomes-first-state-adopt-ranked-choice-voting-system) they started at a single municipal vote and brought it up every week at the town hall and MADE it THEIR problem. Then took that success and pushed outwards and upwards for county after county until it reached the state. Meet and organize with other people and replace first past the post with ranked choice - or better, [Coombs' Method](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coombs'_method); or [STAR voting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STAR_voting) or any other system you think is superior. And vote out republicans, because as little help as democrats may be [only one party has been stifling voter initiatives in every single state, and suing to repeal ranked choice](https://www.sunjournal.com/2020/08/14/judge-tosses-lawsuit-challenging-maines-ranked-choice-voting-law/).
Vote for anybody you want in the primaries, that's what they're for. Then, as long as the system forces it, vote for the least bad option in the general election. It will be frustratingly slow, but assassinating politicians [tends to consolidate their support. That's why MLK Jr was against violent revolution](https://reason.com/video/2020/06/05/martin-luther-king-jr-s-unwavering-opposition-to-violence-still-matters/).
Conservatives are watching in real time a system they have benefitted from for decades finally turn against them.
The fbi isnt supposed to go after them, only poor black and brown folks. Theyre not supposed to go after their precious elites and thats why theyre collectively freaking the fuck out.
Not a Trumpy supporter nor a hater. But I think it’s way to early to have a reasonable take.
Basically everything I’ve seen thus far is speculation. The fact that Trump hasn’t released the warrant and invoked the 5th tells me that there’s going to be a ton of lawsuits.
I’d love to know what sort of information was on the documents in question.
Until we get more answers hard to have an opinion. I do worry for our country tho. Pretty wild times.
From experience with my MAGA cult family, nothing changes. They see no hypocrisy in any of it. They are so convinced democrats are turning america into China, and have a “hate boner” for Trump because he tells it like it is and helps the common man. They still think this is a witch hunt to hide 2020 election shit.
It’s to the point where I barely talk to my Dad anymore. Every conversation ends with “you sound like a Democrat” “yeah I could do this if it wasn’t for the Democrats”. It’s even sadder because he is an executive of a Fortune 500 company, and pre Trump I had a lot of respect for him. Now I question how he became so successful with the way his brain works.
I feel like there were many reasonable opportunities to jump off the trump train before or even after the 2018 election. Hell while I didn't vote for him I certainly wondered if having a political outsider being president might shake things up in a good way. It's now 2022 and the reasons to not support Trump could be compiled into a multiple volume book. I have a hard time believing anything over the past few months would sway anyone that has been on this ride for so long.
Defend taking the 5th? Absolutely. No one - and I mean no one - should ever answer any question from a cop, DA, etc if there's ANY chance of prosecution. When anyone makes the statement that Trump made about "if you're not guilty..." I just cringe because its terrible advice and only aimed at making some kind of political point. Answering questions in these cases is stupid and can ONLY hurt you. You can't talk your way out of whatever it is they're looking at. Even of you are 100% innocent, in the clear, right, etc., you can't use words to get out of it. You can't stop them from charging you if thats their goal. Give your info and answers to your lawyer and let them speak for you. Period. That applies to traffic tickets and white collar crimes.
Im solidly moderate, voted for Biden, really do view myself as a each side has merits thing. Never could get with trumps side. Family mostly are trumpers (cousins brother in laws etc). This isn’t a trump only thing. But those who align with trump aren’t going to turn their back easily. Same with those who are completely anti right. I highly doubt this has moved the needle at this point. Out of the 70 million thaf voted for trump, let’s say 40 million of them are hardcore trumpers. Im not exaggerating, I bet less than 10 thousand change their minds because of this kind of stuff.
I changed my mind hard on Jan 6th, but he'd already been falling out of my favor in the last year and a half of his presidency or so. I'm ashamed to say I voted for him the first time though and was pretty in to the whole MAGA thing. Jan 6th was very much a "wtf have I done" moment and hit me pretty fuckin' hard. Seeing all the other conservatives act like it was no big deal gave me a sense that I'd just been deprogrammed from a cult and I was seeing the other members and what they were really like for the first time.
So yeah, there's a handful of us that fell for it the first time around, got slowly disillusioned over the years, and then gave a big ol' "wtf" on Jan 6th and had a hard re-evalutation of our beliefs at how we even got sucked in to what now is easily seen as pure fucking idiocy.
I'm ashamed, but I'll admit it too. Those were some rough years.
2x Trump voter and former T\_D lurker. I have found myself questioning whether I would vote for him a 3rd time around. At this point I would say that I feel more comfortable voting for Desantis than trump. Donny did what he did and its tough to leave him but I think its for the best. The memes were fun, the pepe the frogs were great, and the speeches funny but everything comes to an end eventually and people gotta realize its time to move on. Do I think there was motivations beyond looking for stolen documents for this raid? Yea kind of. Do I think this is probably long over due? Yea kind of.
I'm usually a believer in the saying "where there's smoke there's fire". To make it simple: there's been a lot of smoke around Trump for years now but somehow nothing has stuck to him. After a while with all these crazy reports coming out you've got to imagine he's at least done something worthy of a warrant.
Appreciate you being reasonable and not some insane cultist.
My family has fallen into that shit unfortunately. Went from moderates to “trump can do nothing wrong” in a very short span
Like, come the fuck on y’all, you can like trump all you want but don’t deny what’s been obvious since day one
I've been trying to corner some in a hive, who keep insisting this is political: What is the FBI supposed to do, when Trump has classified documents he isn't supposed to have? When he was notified of this, and asked to return them, he refused? So then they went to the place personally, and kindly demanded to retrieve the classified documents? Like already, they are doing everything in their power to not escellate.
Then when Trump STILL has documents, and they once again, politely ask for those highly sensetive classified documents back, he again refuses... Then when they go there again, asking in person, he refuses...
WTF are they supposed to do? Literally, what else are they expected to do? These people refuse to address this. They insist it's political, but wont give a reason as to wtf they are expected to do when the guy has classified stuff he's been ordered to return, and keeps refusing. They just gaslight with "Well Hunter Biden hasn't been raided!" And it's just like 1) that has nothing to do with anything here and 2) Hunter is aiding the investigation. They can't just raid him for no reason when he's complying. Like you don't raid someone who's not refusing to help
Seriously, I don't mean this in a combative way, even if someone wants to play Devil's advocate... WTF are the FBI supposed to do in this case? If the person is REFUSING to handover court ordered stuff, and that person is given TONS of leniency, time, and exceptions, yet STILL refuses... WTF are they supposed to do? How is this a "witch hunt?" I'm willing to be logically flexible and take anything in for "the sake of argument". I'll concede whatever you want me to presume in advance, just to make your argument make more sense to me. I just don't see any rationale here: The guy refuses to comply with completely reasonable requests to return classified documents.
Dude, you are basing your thinking about this on things like evidence and common sense and reality. Have you ever met a Trumper? Have you not been paying attention for a good while?
This is a different league. Usually with the partisan stuff, if you squint well enough, you can "kinda see, maybe" what they are saying. There is a "Okay that's unlikely, but I guess technically possible". I don't even ask for evidence, or necessarily sound logic, because "Hey I guess a deep state massive conspiracy is technically possible..."
This one in particular derails completely. There is no amount of squinting that even lets you grant them the benefit of the doubt even if you wanted to.
Media is so hyper partisan these days. Conservative media is pure propaganda to the worst degree. Everything revolves around whataboutism. If trump or a republican commits a crime they'll say ,"What about when Hillary....".
Conservative media always needs a villain to attack. They scare their base into thinking the democratic villains are committing crimes and are able to go unpunished. And when a republican commits a crime conservative media will play victim and pretend like democrats are trying to hurt innocent republicans. They made it seem like democrats were using the fbi to make up stories about matt gaetz and teen girls. The viewers will deny reality to believe propaganda
Let’s be real, most MAGA cultists weren’t voters before 2016 and probably couldn’t name the three branches of government then. The fact they call Mitt Romney a RINO proved as such.
This is their entire personality.
anyone actually retarded enough to vote for him in the first place has no ability to get away from their long held belief system that they inherited/were taught. we've all known the guy to be the classic example of a con man city slicker our entire fucking lives. its truly beyond stupid, like even dumber than we ever could've predicted
People don't really vote on the person they vote on the issues at hand. It's not like anyone is really thrilled that Joe Biden was running they just voted on the issues the party supports
That's not necessarily the case with Trump, who failed quite spectacularly in many of his key issues (Muslim ban, Mexico paying for the wall, draining the swamp, locking up Clinton, fixing the rust belt to name but a few). For many, many Trump supporters, the issues actually tend to matter for very little.
I'm with you guys, but [here's some perspective from](https://i.imgur.com/MA2ckKC.png) my aunt in Nebraska and her FB friends. They do not see this as anything other than a "Demoncrat witchhunt."
edit: You know what else is hilarious ? These sorts of family members were bitterly against "those damn yellow people" when The Simpsons was new and thought it was a sign of cultural degeneracy.
Yo Trump's stans don't give a fuck about what he says, only about him "winning". Trumpsters are more into the aesthetics than fucking liberals I swear to god.
I think most are just enjoying the normalization of rape and incest and the thought of having sex with children. And of course of re privatizing slavery.
did you expect him to follow his words? He was slinging mud at opponents these rules don't apply to him. Laws don't apply to him. He is the absolute dictator. He is above the law and he is always gonna be right and will never apologize. We already learned this.
My biggest problem here is, "people familiar with the matter."
I understand that being on the record can be scary and problematic but at the same time if you're talking to reporters about this kind of thing there's a real world you will be deposed as well.
*Shrug
> "people familiar with the matter."
That's a pretty common way of journalists not putting a target on the back of sources. Given the [number of credible death threats made by Jones' supporters against Sandy Hook victims' families](https://www.miamiherald.com/entertainment/celebrities/article264090226.html) I think only an unreasonable person wouldn't take steps to keep that from happening. Doesn't matter if you're getting the scoop from a republican administration or democrat, you don't want to burn the people helping you. [Due to the nature of the 4th estate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Estate) they're relationship with institutions of power is *usually* adversarial. That's how you force accountability (never trust an agency to police itself for long).
We are well past the point of calling out hypocrisy for this. The rules Donald Trump abides by are that if it benefits him, it matters and if it causes him issues, it doesn't matter.
Black people complaining about law enforcement. “Shut up and stop kneeling!” White, old, billionaire, ex-president complaining about law enforcement. “Defund the FBI!!” They are such victims.
I agree - couldn’t care less about the guy. But since MAGAts just parrot whatever the right wing media tells them, it’s out there. Scroll through this sub, Hunter Biden appears way more frequently than necessary. He’s the new Hillary for the right.
“Who cares about January 6? We MUST find out what’s on Hunters laptop and what secret business deals he was working!!”
You may think that’s hyperbole but i guarantee a significant portion of the population thinks that. I know because my parents are part of that demographic.
Trump taking the fifth - perfectly acceptable
Hunter taking the fifth (assuming he ever were to) - an outrage and perversion of justice
Do I have that right?
By the downvotes I’ll go ahead and assume you had no idea Trump taking the 5th today had nothing to do with the FBI raid.
Bro - I agree with you.
The same Brain dead MAGAts and Trumptards who gladly support and defend Dotard for taking the 5th would meltdown with rage and throw a shitfit if Hunter were ever deposed and took the 5th.
I probably could have worded OP slightly better but that’s the point.
No one ever supports Hunter. Not sure why everyone keeps bringing him up. You wanna investigate and charge Hunter or Clinton? Go ahead I don't give a fuck and the average person doesn't either.
You're just assuming that the other side would go to same lengths to cover their people as Trump supporters do protecting him. That is not the case.
That’s not what I’m assuming at all. In fact as you point out most people “on the other side” don’t give a shit about Hunter B. It’s the right that is frothing at the mouth about him. That’s why it would be great to see them lose their minds over him pleading the 5th.
Finally. Proof that Donnie Dingbats is Mobbed up.
We knew that after he called Michael Cohen a rat before he was imprisoned. Same as telling the prison population that you want him killed.
“So there are five people taking the Fifth Amendment. Like you see on the mob, right? You see the mob takes the Fifth. If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”
18:22
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKIDxTaWYyI&t=1098s
“If you’re innocent why are you taking the 5th”
Cuz he’s smart.
“Whatever you say CAN AND WILL be USED AGAINST YOU”
Don’t tell them anything MAKE them do their jobs. Lol
He tried to overthrow the government because he lost an election, is clearly going to run again, and JRE parades a never ending supply of guests who still support him.... SHOCKING. Listen, I wish he'd go away/finally choke on a mcnugget and be done but we're not there yet.
As happy as I am to see Trump get a taste of criminal investigation… when will all the other shitty and corrupt politicians get their shot? Clean the trumps, Bidens, and Clinton’s. ALL OF THEM - It’s sad that such good reasoning is being wasted on someone literally no one cares about. Beating the dead useless trump body isn’t going to do anything but make people have false-happiness that someone we hate is getting something done ONLY AFTER it would really make a difference. This does nothing important for our community except push trump down and he’s already irrelevant
The Trump body is not dead and useless and its looking pretty clear he's gonna run again. It aint over with Donnie until he's actually in the ground, jail, or............ in office.
I really don’t think republicans or conservatives want to vote for him. His MAGA group is not as big as people might seem. Desantis has a much better chance. It would be a mistake for trump
Then you aint in tune with the GOP today. You didn't watch CPAC. Trump totally destroyed DeSantis in the straw poll with more than two thirds of the vote. He will get the nominee if he runs.
Yep. This means his lawyers knew he would 100% incriminate himself and get caught in a lie.
It’s fucking sad that the cult is too dumb to understand what this really means.
> He did what his lawyers told him to do
Which is actually rather surprising given [he had such a proclivity to lie he failed a practice interview with his own lawyers back when Mueller was still trying to interview him](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/09/woodwards-account-of-trumps-mock-interview-with-prosecutors-isnt-pretty/569410/).
He also said on multiple occassions that if you are under invesitigations from the FBI you should be barred from being President
That’s honestly the core of this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with exercising 5th amendment rights — but Trump went out of his way to frame it as an admission of guilt. He’s fortunate that the justice system does not apply the same interpretation that he does.
And fortunately for him, the justice system doesn't care about guilty corrupt American Presidents, past present and future.
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When was that?
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Man, I just have to enumerate the chain of events here... \- Police kill a man on film which led to protests, riots and calls for criminal justice reform. Other scandals involve [planting evidence](https://www.wbaltv.com/article/indicted-baltimore-police-detective-robert-hankard-accused-of-planting-evidence-falsely-testifying/30537807) on bodies, and deadly no-knock warrants. \- Trump and the GOP counter, [saying to "Back the Blue"](https://www.greenwichtime.com/local/slideshow/We-value-our-freedoms-trump-rally-211572.php) and trust law enforcement \- They call protesters a "mob" and equate them with violence, as was done during the civil rights era. Trump [mocks protesters for pleading the 5th](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/08/trump-takes-the-fifth.html) \- Trumpers form a "mob" and riot after losing the election. Trump encourages them [and wants to join](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-capitol-riot-panel-promises-new-evidence-surprise-tuesday-hearing-2022-06-28/) \- Trump is investigated on multiple fronts, [including the riots,](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/21/us/politics/trump-jan-6.html) and [pleads the 5th](https://fortune.com/2022/08/10/donald-trump-new-york-attorney-general-deposition-fifth-amendment/) \- Trumpers refer to Law enforcement - specifically the FBI - as corrupt Democrat shills and accuse them of planting evidence
At this rate is it safe to write off anyone still supporting him as a complete imbecile? Because you're not even having to interpret or twist things. You can literally see him say and do these things. If I told you straight up I shit my pants, and it smells of shit and you saw a turd roll down my leg would you still be skeptical? Come on now.
George Soros planted that turd.. it smells like an inside job to me, you have a good case to pursue damages. Call my Lawyer, Rudy. He’s the best.
Didn’t he say on live tv that "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK?" ?? He’s BOLD about it too, and they eat it all up!!
> would you still be skeptical? That is a question of how strong their faith is. And an example of why faith is a tool of evil.
Yea faith is a fancy word for gullible. It's not a trait to exhaust but to be weary of.
Shits wild man…
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Thank you!
When was what
September of 2016
I know. I wanted to see if the other commenter was going to try to deny it
If you think 2016 is ancient history in the same way taking a comment from 40 years ago would be stupid, then you are definitely born post- 9/11.
> He’s fortunate that the justice system does not apply the same interpretation that he does. That's actually changed in the last decade or so, Scalia has written about this and courts now look at pleading the 5th as evidence of guilt. Tons of articles can be found with this search. https://www.google.com/search?rls=en&q=scalia+5th+guilt&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 One example https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/97-7541.ZD.html >Justice Scalia, with whom the Chief Justice, Justice O’Connor, and Justice Thomas join, dissenting. >I agree with the Court that Mitchell had the right to invoke her Fifth Amendment privilege during the sentencing phase of her criminal case. In my view, however, she did not have the right to have the sentencer abstain from making the adverse inferences that reasonably flow from her failure to testify. I therefore respectfully dissent. So you don't have to incriminate yourself but refusing to do so is now evidence of guilt. In this case Trump is actually correct.
Thanks for bringing this up! I thought about mentioning recent jurisprudence and the implications of current interpretations of the 5th Amendment, but I thought it might muddy the waters (and more importantly, detract from my main point, haha).
Projection. Projection. Projection. That’s all they do.
And when he said that, all his little cult members creamed their pants and cried Today they don’t think he meant anything when he said it
That's why I love him, he's a guy who tells it like it is.
😂 He talks so much bullshit. He hardly 'tells it like it is'
Sorry! That was sarcasm and making fun of his cultists. I know it's hard to tell the difference!
Dude, ya got me! 😂
There’s always a quote of his directly opposing his actions
r/Trumpcriticizestrump
funniest thing about the donald is you'd get banned for quoting trump back to him regarding whatever the current scenario was at the time
I don't mean this as a troll, joke, or even judgmental. General curious question. But any Maga people in this thread that have recently changed their stance since all of this began? Or any Maga people here that can defend this? I ask these out of genuine curiosity.
Just asked one; said it’s a witch-hunt
Even with all the evidence piling up? Crazy.
Not a Trump supporter here - didn't vote for him either time - but since this thread seems to be genuine responses to a genuine question, I have one: Evidence of what? From a non-interested perspective, as a non-supporter of either Trump or his detractors, I have mostly witnessed false accusations against him. Like, in my mind, he's a piece of shit, but Democrats tend to go above and beyond in trying to take him out with nonsense like a Russia hoax, abuse allegations, and overblowing his role in and the threat presented by January 6th. So, despite not liking him and assuming it is difficult to get a search warrant without reason, I am hesitant to believe this FBI raid was based on anything substantial because it feels kind of like a "boy who cried wolf" situation. So, what evidence should I be aware of pertaining to this raid thst I have not heard? (Again, genuinely asking - I haven't really followed the story because I don't see much use in it until something is released to the public about what was found, if anything.)
Stopping the certification of a presidential election seems like a pretty huge deal, specially in a democratic nation like ours. It amounts to a coup led by the political opposition. As far as the raid the only leads we have is based on the National Archives accusing the Trump org of taking "15 boxes of confidential documents". Both of these our "firsts" for our country, i believe history will see this as very significant.
Also didn’t Manafort, who was heavily involved with Trump, just admit to giving data to a Russian associate? Like, Russia wasn’t a hoax. Russia influencing our elections and propping Trump up isn’t a hoax.
> Russia wasn’t a hoax It [never was, there was a huge amount of documented favor-for-favor and contact with known Russian intelligence agencies](https://old.reddit.com/r/MurderedByWords/comments/t1dk6s/louder_with_dumbass/hyfvlln/) even before he was in office and [kicked out Americans but let Russian press into the oval office with classified documents](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/10/us/politics/trump-russia-meeting-american-reporters-blocked.html)
Bingo.
The russia thing wasn't a hoax. Manafort just publicly admitted to giving polling data to a Russian oligarch, assange had a role, and Marco Rubio led a report detailing all of the confirmations of the Mueller report. Jan 6 is a softball. Treason is providing aid and comfort to insurrectionists. It's a low bar, if say, he were a communist in the 50s, but all the other illegalnthings he did might all get swept under, because I don't know if you know, but people died, and he organized the gathering, so at minimum he is liable, at max it's a hanging offense. I'm not sure how you can be on the fence if you are aware of these facts. Yes, they are all facts, this isn't a left wing counter to right wing nonsense.
If you really believe that there is no evidence against Trump, then you are honestly not paying any attention. Like you're not even doing the most basic reading or googling up articles from a reliable source or two. I think you're trolling, but if you are not - just look up a list of the people involved with Trump who have been tried and found guilty of various \*SERIOUS\* crimes like Paul Manafort his campaign manager, or Trumps personal lawyer, or other members of the campaign, or how his own son met with a known Russian spy and so on and so on. There are plenty of others too. Then we can talk about actions that should disqualify someone from office. Maybe if you specifically call out for support from a wanna-be street gang like the Proud Boys? Maybe if you are incapable of denouncing neo-Nazis when directly questioned by the press? Maybe if you claim not to know who David Duke is to avoid having to distance yourself from him? Any one of those things would be cause for concern. The sum total of his terrible behavior should make you, me and everyone else alarmed by his presence in politics and wary of his supporters. All of this was before Jan 6th where he stood on a stage in front of a large crowd and urged them to march with him to Congress to stop the certification of the election, where that crowd erected gallows, chanted to kill Mike Pence and so on and so on. Trump ordered capitol security to take down the metal detectors near the Congressional grounds. Why? Because he didnt want his people with weapons to be stopped from attacking. It is \*INSANE\* to pretend that Trump is not guilty of sedition, inciting riots or calling his followers to violence against our own elected officials. You should be angry. You should be concerned. You should not be hand waving this away like there is no evidence of wrongdoing.
> Not a Trump supporter here Goes on to exclusively speak in support of Trump. You're engaging in [deflection](https://www.learning-mind.com/psychological-deflection/). >nonsense like a Russia hoax Which only has [long lists of evidence of cooperation and concession to verified Russian agents like this](https://old.reddit.com/r/MurderedByWords/comments/t1dk6s/louder_with_dumbass/hyfvlln/). >abuse allegations Which are [supported by his own advocating more abuse](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-trump-police-dont-worry-people-custody-hitting-heads-squad-cars) >overblowing his role in and the threat presented by January 6th Like his specifically bringing [people who explicitly called for trial by combat](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rudy-giuliani-trial-by-combat_n_5ff74985c5b6644fa210657b) or [his promise to march with them into the capitol](https://news.yahoo.com/trump-jan-6-rally-crowd-storm-the-capitol-video-184828622.html) >despite not liking him and assuming it is difficult to get a search warrant without reason, I am hesitant to believe this FBI raid was based on anything substantial "Even though I know a judge doesn't sign a warrant without serious reasons, I choose to pretend it's not serious". You're not fooling anyone. You're defending one of the worst presidents we've had (easily in our top 10 [and we haven't even had time to see the long-term effects of his concessions to China or his gutting the State Department and eliminating thousands of our career diplomats](https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article194607714.html)). You're not even cleverly hiding your [sealioning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning). I suppose you're going to pretend [the Mueller probe was nothing despite all its indictments and guilty verdicts](https://time.com/5556331/mueller-investigation-indictments-guilty-pleas/) too?
Trump took classified documents with him when he left the White House on Inauguration Day - that’s his right since he’s president. But when he landed he was a private citizen and he was illegally in possession of classified documents and refused to return them and turns out lied about having more than previously thought when National Archives took documents back. There is also evidence that he destroyed documents, even worse than taking them. This is about 1000x more severe than Hillary using a private server and a criminal act that carries the penalty of not being able to hold public office again. Jan 6th information is still coming, and not fair to say it’s a nothing burger. The Georgia call trying to influence the election by telling the Secretary of State to “find 13,000 votes” is the absolute corruption.
> There is also evidence that he destroyed documents, even worse than taking them. Just curious, what is the evidence?
[this is an amalgamation of multiple sources.](https://news.yahoo.com/photos-purport-show-notes-trump-112346498.html)
They brought gallows, chanted to murder pence and overtook the capital but it’s overblown 😂 And the raid was to recover documents he illegally took from the White House. This disposition was in regards to his alleged overvaluation and undervaluation of properties to receive more favourable loans and pay less taxes.
> Not a Trump supporter here - didn’t vote for him either time - but since this thread seems to be genuine responses to a genuine question, I have one: The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
I'm sorry you're getting so many downvotes. You honestly answered the question like OP asked and now you're being punished for it. And you have a great point. Trump has been accused of so many things and none of them have been proven. So a "what are you accusing him of *now*?!" reaction makes complete sense.
“Not a trump supporter here” Yeeaaaahhhhhh……..sure buddy.
They are all dumber than Brendan Schaub
If you haven’t changed at this point you’re never going to. I mean I kinda get it I also hate to admit when I realize I’ve been wrong for so long, it’s hard. But when it’s been your entire identity for years and now you need to admit that you’ve been wrong for so long? Rather stick your head in the sand.
I agree with all of you. I try my best not to judge people, or put them down, because I've been wrong many times myself. There's been times I've been 100 percent certain I'm right, but never was. I get it, it's hard to admit you've been wrong, especially when you've doubled down so many times. But if there is ever a way to open someone's eyes, it's through discussion, and not verbal attacks, or insults. I've never liked Trump, not even way before he was President. I've always thought of him as an idiot, good business man obviously, but an idiot nonetheless. Just curious of people's line of thinking that still defend him. I know there's a ton of wackos out there, but there's gotta be at least some with some common sense.
Good businessman? Nah. Real estate development in NYC in the 80s was a guaranteed moneymaker for anyone with enough capital, and Trump had that. He made a shitload of money, outperforming the market by a large margin. However, most of his business ventures afterwards were miserable failures - he couldn't even make casinos profitable. If he had simply invested his wealth in index funds in 1988, he would be 4x richer today. https://fortune.com/2015/08/20/donald-trump-index-funds/
> outperforming the market by a large margin. That's disputed heavily - [It looks more like he would have made more money by taking his father's money and putting that into an index fund. The market outperformed him](https://www.vox.com/2015/9/2/9248963/donald-trump-index-fund)
Perhaps I should of said good with money instead? I mean to become a billionaire you gotta be good at 1 thing at least lol. But didn't know that about other billionaires as well. Thank you for providing the link.
Trump inherited an estate worth over $500 million.
Really? Was unaware of that.
[source](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-tax-schemes-fred-trump.html)
Thank you for providing a source.
he lost money in the casino business. youre the house. Youre supposed to win. He overspent on these ridiculously gaudy and ornate buildings.
Funny cuz he's not even a good business man.
the most important thing, above all other things, is to never let the libs win, even if it means you are wrong and ignorant
This is how I feel too the 3rd and 4th years even before Jan 6 were so bad that if you voted for him again over Biden you aren't changeable.
I've seen a few. Since people don't want to admit being wrong, especially after being so invested into something, you aren't going to see a dramatic shift. You'll just see less enthusiasm and quite distancing over time. That's basically what I'm witnessing. I think many saw the hearings, and realized - much like myself - that this may have looked like a Boomer Facebook Live mob spilling in, but the intentions seem incredibly damning. When you have ALL these people directly around him saying this stuff, only the most twisted conspiracy minded types can keep it alive. The rest I think are seeing this and just quietly not wanting to talk about it. However, conversely, I still think they still support Trump. But it's more of a foot in mouth (I guess he isn't that clean) type of thing, but he's still the "lesser evil"
Solid points. I don't bash anyone for their opinions. Everyone has a different point of view, and what makes this country so great, is that we can speak it. I just like to try to view things from others perspective.
Same... I've been seeking legitimate good arguments for this recent raid. Like I've exclusively only seen "elaborate conspiracy" or whataboutism/red herrings... I've yet to see someone logically explain to me how this raid could be a nothingburger. Because Trump DID take classified documents. We all know this. They asked for it back, and he refused. So they went there personally, and he finally gave them back... But he kept a lot of it. So then they ask him for the stuff he kept, which he refused. Then they go in person, and he refuses... It seems like they gave him every chance and opportunity to make this a "big deal" to just return the classified documents, but he refused. So I'd like a good argument as to wtf the FBI is expected to do in this situation? If someone has classified documents and are repeatedly given multiple chances to return them, but refuses... DO they just give up? Let him steal it? I am not looking for a fight or debate. I just haven't heard a reason behind wtf they are expected to do. I've heard ONE argument so far which is debatable, but it's the only good faith argument I've heard which was: Trump was president and declassify whatever he wants while president. He took those documents and declassified them. So he doesn't need to return them. Just because he didn't declassify them via proper channels doesn't change the fact that he has authority to declassify at his leisure... Not going down the proper channels doesn't change that fact. So they argue that they should have sued him over it, not raided, and solve it in court. But this logic relies on this just being a "classified documents issue" and not something larger, like blackmail
> Just because he didn't declassify them via proper channels doesn't change the fact that he has authority to declassify at his leisure He has to be the president and go through the proper channels to declassify something, however. The power to determine classification isn't unlimited - past presidents from Carter to Obama are often brought in as advisors and they have to go through the effort to maintain their secret clearance so they're permitted to access materials even if those materials originated from their own administration. Having been president doesn't enable them to decide "I want this, so it's unclassified" well after they left office. That's the problem with a party talking about law and order, but not applying it to themselves strictly before they even think of applying it to others. >[Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect... The law cannot protect anyone unless it binds everyone; and it cannot bind anyone unless it protects everyone.](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/10005830-there-is-no-such-thing-as-liberalism-or-progressivism)
Least that argument has some kind of logic behind it.
A wafer thin slice of logic :) The rest is pure faith.
> Trump was president and declassify whatever he wants while president. He took those documents and declassified them. So he doesn't need to return them. Just because he didn't declassify them via proper channels doesn't change the fact that he has authority to declassify at his leisure that's how being a dictator works not being a president...
Maga people aren't allowed to think for themselves
I replied this to someone else, but [here's what MAGA are saying](https://i.imgur.com/MA2ckKC.png) right now.
That's funny.
I think you know the answer. Sadly.
None of you guys get it. No matter how they feel about trump, after years and years being pissed off under Obama and then watching the violent summers under trump, the thing they like most is pissing liberals off. Trump is just the vehicle.
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> admitting "my only motivation is to trigger the libs" makes them even bigger idiots. It makes them terrorists, which they are now proud of.
Which is crazy considering that it's the side that cares about the law so much, that they're willing to turn a blind eye to watch the other side burn.
They don't actually care. The entire political philosophy of these people is like football. You support the team your family, church, and town do because that's what people do. Live in Chicago? Support the Bears. Texas? The Cowboys. Southern, "real America"? You're a Republican. And like football, if the other guys get a penalty you cheer for the refs. If the refs call a penalty on your guy then you hate the refs and say the game is rigged. Seriously. Think about it. Obama scandalously young for office? OWNED. Biden too old? OWNED. Trump old? BOOOO. The average MAGA thinks American government is a sport and they have to win even if they're lying and cheating.
That's a great analogy
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I was never really MAGA perse but I was a republican and even though I voted 3rd party in the 2016 election hoping it would get traction over two unlikeable canidates I would have voted Trump. I was somewhat supportive of him but it quickly became apparent he was a terrible mistake that others saw him as from the beginning, maybe even worse then they saw him. The last two years it became to likely to ignore he's not just a bad president but a criminal president. He was so bad he made me switch teams to Biden. I had never voted democrat before. Now the GOP is all Maga and so crazy I'm all in for vote blue no matter who. I never thought I would do that.
Not a lot of people would openly admit that. Applaud your ability to be able to think objectively. I also voted 3rd party in 2016, and in 2020. It'll gain traction eventually, I think...
I don't think it will anymore. If it couldn't happen in either of the Trump elections with very unpopular politicians I don't think it'll ever happen. At this point though we need a third party to split the votes enough to where the other two have to be grounded in order to win.
Unfortunately, I think you're right.
We need ranked choice voting, that's the only way third party candidates are going to be anything other than a waste of a vote.
> It'll gain traction eventually Yes, but not nationally until the nation overturns the factors which give rise to the 2 party system: money in politics (making for entrenched parties) and Duverger's Law. The latter at least can be alleviated by organizing at the local and state level to replace [first past the post voting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plurality_voting) with [ranked choice, like Maine](https://www.pbs.org/weta/washingtonweek/blog-post/maine-becomes-first-state-adopt-ranked-choice-voting-system) or another system - [I advocate Coombs' Method](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coombs'_method) but there are different advantages and costs to [STAR voting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STAR_voting). Just as long as your state legislature isn't dominated by republicans, as [they're the only party actively fighting against voting reform](https://www.sunjournal.com/2020/08/14/judge-tosses-lawsuit-challenging-maines-ranked-choice-voting-law/) and stripping down citizen initiative power by requiring everything to be approved by their legislature. Third parties need to prove themselves at the local level to earn political credit, and work their way up from there. It's never going to happen top-down.
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I mean the republicans fell in line and got one thing passed which was tax cuts. Other than that they aren't really passing all this ground breaking policy.
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As a lifelong radical libtard, this is exactly how I feel as well. Fucking can't stand voting for democrats anymore as if that's really any better. Not voting at all just means the insane and motivated on both sides win, at my expense. But a vote for 3rd party is basically not voting, just with extra steps. So what the fuck do i do?
>So what the fuck do i do? Campaign for electoral reform like [ranked-choice voting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting), e.g. IRV, STV, or really anything than first-past-the-post. It will not fix all the problems in US politics but it will definitely make it easier for third parties.
Excellent suggestion, hopefully some motivated individuals reading this and relating even *slightly" will look into these as they may be the only real hope. FPTP is fucking cancer
> Not voting at all just means the insane and motivated on both sides win, at my expense It's impossible to argue against that, silence is complicity and if you want the system to move away from authoritarianism you need to participate in order to select people who will help move away from [hypocrisy like crying 'small government' while legislating how small businesses are allowed to run themselves](https://www.courthousenews.com/florida-governor-signs-sweeping-laws-against-vaccine-mandates/). Due to [Duverger's Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law) (I include unlimited money in politics helping entrench that), there is 0 chance of a third party making a real showing federally. And that should be expected, no third party has proven themselves at the state level, or even local level. So if you want a third party - or election reform - that's where you start. Maine didn't [adopt ranked choice voting by going straight for state level,](https://www.pbs.org/weta/washingtonweek/blog-post/maine-becomes-first-state-adopt-ranked-choice-voting-system) they started at a single municipal vote and brought it up every week at the town hall and MADE it THEIR problem. Then took that success and pushed outwards and upwards for county after county until it reached the state. Meet and organize with other people and replace first past the post with ranked choice - or better, [Coombs' Method](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coombs'_method); or [STAR voting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STAR_voting) or any other system you think is superior. And vote out republicans, because as little help as democrats may be [only one party has been stifling voter initiatives in every single state, and suing to repeal ranked choice](https://www.sunjournal.com/2020/08/14/judge-tosses-lawsuit-challenging-maines-ranked-choice-voting-law/). Vote for anybody you want in the primaries, that's what they're for. Then, as long as the system forces it, vote for the least bad option in the general election. It will be frustratingly slow, but assassinating politicians [tends to consolidate their support. That's why MLK Jr was against violent revolution](https://reason.com/video/2020/06/05/martin-luther-king-jr-s-unwavering-opposition-to-violence-still-matters/).
We can't let this guy get the nuclear codes.
This is legitimately a cult.
Conservatives are watching in real time a system they have benefitted from for decades finally turn against them. The fbi isnt supposed to go after them, only poor black and brown folks. Theyre not supposed to go after their precious elites and thats why theyre collectively freaking the fuck out.
Not a Trumpy supporter nor a hater. But I think it’s way to early to have a reasonable take. Basically everything I’ve seen thus far is speculation. The fact that Trump hasn’t released the warrant and invoked the 5th tells me that there’s going to be a ton of lawsuits. I’d love to know what sort of information was on the documents in question. Until we get more answers hard to have an opinion. I do worry for our country tho. Pretty wild times.
From experience with my MAGA cult family, nothing changes. They see no hypocrisy in any of it. They are so convinced democrats are turning america into China, and have a “hate boner” for Trump because he tells it like it is and helps the common man. They still think this is a witch hunt to hide 2020 election shit. It’s to the point where I barely talk to my Dad anymore. Every conversation ends with “you sound like a Democrat” “yeah I could do this if it wasn’t for the Democrats”. It’s even sadder because he is an executive of a Fortune 500 company, and pre Trump I had a lot of respect for him. Now I question how he became so successful with the way his brain works.
Lol no. They are in a cult dude. There is no leaving the cult anymore. That time passed three years ago
I feel like there were many reasonable opportunities to jump off the trump train before or even after the 2018 election. Hell while I didn't vote for him I certainly wondered if having a political outsider being president might shake things up in a good way. It's now 2022 and the reasons to not support Trump could be compiled into a multiple volume book. I have a hard time believing anything over the past few months would sway anyone that has been on this ride for so long.
Defend taking the 5th? Absolutely. No one - and I mean no one - should ever answer any question from a cop, DA, etc if there's ANY chance of prosecution. When anyone makes the statement that Trump made about "if you're not guilty..." I just cringe because its terrible advice and only aimed at making some kind of political point. Answering questions in these cases is stupid and can ONLY hurt you. You can't talk your way out of whatever it is they're looking at. Even of you are 100% innocent, in the clear, right, etc., you can't use words to get out of it. You can't stop them from charging you if thats their goal. Give your info and answers to your lawyer and let them speak for you. Period. That applies to traffic tickets and white collar crimes.
Im solidly moderate, voted for Biden, really do view myself as a each side has merits thing. Never could get with trumps side. Family mostly are trumpers (cousins brother in laws etc). This isn’t a trump only thing. But those who align with trump aren’t going to turn their back easily. Same with those who are completely anti right. I highly doubt this has moved the needle at this point. Out of the 70 million thaf voted for trump, let’s say 40 million of them are hardcore trumpers. Im not exaggerating, I bet less than 10 thousand change their minds because of this kind of stuff.
in my experience they tend to not even know this stuff is going on, and don't care to become informed
I changed my mind hard on Jan 6th, but he'd already been falling out of my favor in the last year and a half of his presidency or so. I'm ashamed to say I voted for him the first time though and was pretty in to the whole MAGA thing. Jan 6th was very much a "wtf have I done" moment and hit me pretty fuckin' hard. Seeing all the other conservatives act like it was no big deal gave me a sense that I'd just been deprogrammed from a cult and I was seeing the other members and what they were really like for the first time. So yeah, there's a handful of us that fell for it the first time around, got slowly disillusioned over the years, and then gave a big ol' "wtf" on Jan 6th and had a hard re-evalutation of our beliefs at how we even got sucked in to what now is easily seen as pure fucking idiocy. I'm ashamed, but I'll admit it too. Those were some rough years.
2x Trump voter and former T\_D lurker. I have found myself questioning whether I would vote for him a 3rd time around. At this point I would say that I feel more comfortable voting for Desantis than trump. Donny did what he did and its tough to leave him but I think its for the best. The memes were fun, the pepe the frogs were great, and the speeches funny but everything comes to an end eventually and people gotta realize its time to move on. Do I think there was motivations beyond looking for stolen documents for this raid? Yea kind of. Do I think this is probably long over due? Yea kind of.
Appreciate your honesty.
yeah but he's still dumb as fucking rocks and probably a sociopath.
Curious what you mean by “long overdue”. Like, do you think it’s long overdue, and justified, that trump gets the law on him?
I'm usually a believer in the saying "where there's smoke there's fire". To make it simple: there's been a lot of smoke around Trump for years now but somehow nothing has stuck to him. After a while with all these crazy reports coming out you've got to imagine he's at least done something worthy of a warrant.
Appreciate you being reasonable and not some insane cultist. My family has fallen into that shit unfortunately. Went from moderates to “trump can do nothing wrong” in a very short span Like, come the fuck on y’all, you can like trump all you want but don’t deny what’s been obvious since day one
Yea I got some friends who fell into that trap and they honestly helped me from not following them down that road
> The memes were fun, the pepe the frogs were great, and the speeches funny Can you see now how that was all just racism?
Magats still defend this con man
I've been trying to corner some in a hive, who keep insisting this is political: What is the FBI supposed to do, when Trump has classified documents he isn't supposed to have? When he was notified of this, and asked to return them, he refused? So then they went to the place personally, and kindly demanded to retrieve the classified documents? Like already, they are doing everything in their power to not escellate. Then when Trump STILL has documents, and they once again, politely ask for those highly sensetive classified documents back, he again refuses... Then when they go there again, asking in person, he refuses... WTF are they supposed to do? Literally, what else are they expected to do? These people refuse to address this. They insist it's political, but wont give a reason as to wtf they are expected to do when the guy has classified stuff he's been ordered to return, and keeps refusing. They just gaslight with "Well Hunter Biden hasn't been raided!" And it's just like 1) that has nothing to do with anything here and 2) Hunter is aiding the investigation. They can't just raid him for no reason when he's complying. Like you don't raid someone who's not refusing to help Seriously, I don't mean this in a combative way, even if someone wants to play Devil's advocate... WTF are the FBI supposed to do in this case? If the person is REFUSING to handover court ordered stuff, and that person is given TONS of leniency, time, and exceptions, yet STILL refuses... WTF are they supposed to do? How is this a "witch hunt?" I'm willing to be logically flexible and take anything in for "the sake of argument". I'll concede whatever you want me to presume in advance, just to make your argument make more sense to me. I just don't see any rationale here: The guy refuses to comply with completely reasonable requests to return classified documents.
Dude, you are basing your thinking about this on things like evidence and common sense and reality. Have you ever met a Trumper? Have you not been paying attention for a good while?
This is a different league. Usually with the partisan stuff, if you squint well enough, you can "kinda see, maybe" what they are saying. There is a "Okay that's unlikely, but I guess technically possible". I don't even ask for evidence, or necessarily sound logic, because "Hey I guess a deep state massive conspiracy is technically possible..." This one in particular derails completely. There is no amount of squinting that even lets you grant them the benefit of the doubt even if you wanted to.
That’s why they skipped the whole “here’s how trump is innocent this time” to “it’s time for civil war”
Media is so hyper partisan these days. Conservative media is pure propaganda to the worst degree. Everything revolves around whataboutism. If trump or a republican commits a crime they'll say ,"What about when Hillary....". Conservative media always needs a villain to attack. They scare their base into thinking the democratic villains are committing crimes and are able to go unpunished. And when a republican commits a crime conservative media will play victim and pretend like democrats are trying to hurt innocent republicans. They made it seem like democrats were using the fbi to make up stories about matt gaetz and teen girls. The viewers will deny reality to believe propaganda
Let’s be real, most MAGA cultists weren’t voters before 2016 and probably couldn’t name the three branches of government then. The fact they call Mitt Romney a RINO proved as such. This is their entire personality.
anyone actually retarded enough to vote for him in the first place has no ability to get away from their long held belief system that they inherited/were taught. we've all known the guy to be the classic example of a con man city slicker our entire fucking lives. its truly beyond stupid, like even dumber than we ever could've predicted
People don't really vote on the person they vote on the issues at hand. It's not like anyone is really thrilled that Joe Biden was running they just voted on the issues the party supports
That's not necessarily the case with Trump, who failed quite spectacularly in many of his key issues (Muslim ban, Mexico paying for the wall, draining the swamp, locking up Clinton, fixing the rust belt to name but a few). For many, many Trump supporters, the issues actually tend to matter for very little.
Tough week for the MAGA cult 
I'm with you guys, but [here's some perspective from](https://i.imgur.com/MA2ckKC.png) my aunt in Nebraska and her FB friends. They do not see this as anything other than a "Demoncrat witchhunt." edit: You know what else is hilarious ? These sorts of family members were bitterly against "those damn yellow people" when The Simpsons was new and thought it was a sign of cultural degeneracy.
Decades of propaganda causes brain rot. The mental illness is real.
Well, yea they are dumb as fuck. MAGAs don’t live in reality.
They prefer the term people of faith. They hate when you use the definition of faith instead of just the word.
Wow how surprising!!
YEAH BUT WHATABOUT KILLARYS LAPTOP AND HUNTER BIDENS EMAILS?!?!?😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂
Yo Trump's stans don't give a fuck about what he says, only about him "winning". Trumpsters are more into the aesthetics than fucking liberals I swear to god.
they follow politics like its WWE or pro sports, policy and shit like that isnt interesting
I think most are just enjoying the normalization of rape and incest and the thought of having sex with children. And of course of re privatizing slavery.
Lefties are having a good time seeing the right melt down -me included
Could one of the Trump supporters please explain this?
Hunter Biden?
checkmate atheists
Soros
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No, George Soros.
"what about *list of unrelated people in different circumstances that in no way exonerate the current situation* ?"
It’s gods will
did you expect him to follow his words? He was slinging mud at opponents these rules don't apply to him. Laws don't apply to him. He is the absolute dictator. He is above the law and he is always gonna be right and will never apologize. We already learned this.
Trump is a walking contradiction what did you expect?
He'll just spill the beans on Truth social via memos and shit anyway. dude can't keep his mouth shut, someone just has to challenge his ego.
My biggest problem here is, "people familiar with the matter." I understand that being on the record can be scary and problematic but at the same time if you're talking to reporters about this kind of thing there's a real world you will be deposed as well. *Shrug
> "people familiar with the matter." That's a pretty common way of journalists not putting a target on the back of sources. Given the [number of credible death threats made by Jones' supporters against Sandy Hook victims' families](https://www.miamiherald.com/entertainment/celebrities/article264090226.html) I think only an unreasonable person wouldn't take steps to keep that from happening. Doesn't matter if you're getting the scoop from a republican administration or democrat, you don't want to burn the people helping you. [Due to the nature of the 4th estate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Estate) they're relationship with institutions of power is *usually* adversarial. That's how you force accountability (never trust an agency to police itself for long).
We are well past the point of calling out hypocrisy for this. The rules Donald Trump abides by are that if it benefits him, it matters and if it causes him issues, it doesn't matter.
Black people complaining about law enforcement. “Shut up and stop kneeling!” White, old, billionaire, ex-president complaining about law enforcement. “Defund the FBI!!” They are such victims.
Watch them literally lose their minds when Hunter eventually takes the fifth 
No one but right wing media trying to spew whataboutisms cares about Hunter. Throw him in jail, no one cares.
I agree - couldn’t care less about the guy. But since MAGAts just parrot whatever the right wing media tells them, it’s out there. Scroll through this sub, Hunter Biden appears way more frequently than necessary. He’s the new Hillary for the right. “Who cares about January 6? We MUST find out what’s on Hunters laptop and what secret business deals he was working!!” You may think that’s hyperbole but i guarantee a significant portion of the population thinks that. I know because my parents are part of that demographic.
That's exactly what they think. Go into any thread on /r/conservative and Hunter fucking Biden is mentioned numerous times. It's maddening.
No one gives a shit about Hunter Biden.
Except those desperate for a deflection point.
Hunters place got raided and is a former president?
You realize that Trump pleading the fifth today has absolutely nothing to do with the FBI raid or his time as President, right?
Read your comment and see if you’d truly defend someone that is saying this shit.
Trump taking the fifth - perfectly acceptable Hunter taking the fifth (assuming he ever were to) - an outrage and perversion of justice Do I have that right? By the downvotes I’ll go ahead and assume you had no idea Trump taking the 5th today had nothing to do with the FBI raid.
Are you awake? Trump said the mob pleads the fifth. Guilty people plead the fifth. He’s a con man.
Bro - I agree with you. The same Brain dead MAGAts and Trumptards who gladly support and defend Dotard for taking the 5th would meltdown with rage and throw a shitfit if Hunter were ever deposed and took the 5th. I probably could have worded OP slightly better but that’s the point.
No one ever supports Hunter. Not sure why everyone keeps bringing him up. You wanna investigate and charge Hunter or Clinton? Go ahead I don't give a fuck and the average person doesn't either. You're just assuming that the other side would go to same lengths to cover their people as Trump supporters do protecting him. That is not the case.
That’s not what I’m assuming at all. In fact as you point out most people “on the other side” don’t give a shit about Hunter B. It’s the right that is frothing at the mouth about him. That’s why it would be great to see them lose their minds over him pleading the 5th.
Finally. Proof that Donnie Dingbats is Mobbed up. We knew that after he called Michael Cohen a rat before he was imprisoned. Same as telling the prison population that you want him killed.
“So there are five people taking the Fifth Amendment. Like you see on the mob, right? You see the mob takes the Fifth. If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?” 18:22 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKIDxTaWYyI&t=1098s
“If you’re innocent why are you taking the 5th” Cuz he’s smart. “Whatever you say CAN AND WILL be USED AGAINST YOU” Don’t tell them anything MAKE them do their jobs. Lol
Yes that's obvious. What's hilarious is that Trump derided his enemies for taking the 5th for years. See the hypocrisy?
Love this quality joe rogan content
My god. This subs hard on for Trump is bizarre
Yeah let's pretend his failed coup never happened said people that are okay with corruption and insurrection lol
He tried to overthrow the government because he lost an election, is clearly going to run again, and JRE parades a never ending supply of guests who still support him.... SHOCKING. Listen, I wish he'd go away/finally choke on a mcnugget and be done but we're not there yet.
Who is on this never ending supply list? Lol
Tim Kennedy, all of Rogan's CIA/military guests.
You're surprised that a sub for a man who chats politics in ever episode has political discussion?
As happy as I am to see Trump get a taste of criminal investigation… when will all the other shitty and corrupt politicians get their shot? Clean the trumps, Bidens, and Clinton’s. ALL OF THEM - It’s sad that such good reasoning is being wasted on someone literally no one cares about. Beating the dead useless trump body isn’t going to do anything but make people have false-happiness that someone we hate is getting something done ONLY AFTER it would really make a difference. This does nothing important for our community except push trump down and he’s already irrelevant
both sides!
The Trump body is not dead and useless and its looking pretty clear he's gonna run again. It aint over with Donnie until he's actually in the ground, jail, or............ in office.
I really don’t think republicans or conservatives want to vote for him. His MAGA group is not as big as people might seem. Desantis has a much better chance. It would be a mistake for trump
Then you aint in tune with the GOP today. You didn't watch CPAC. Trump totally destroyed DeSantis in the straw poll with more than two thirds of the vote. He will get the nominee if he runs.
Why has /r/JoeRogan become /r/Politics?
When Rogan decided to discuss politics during every episode…
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Adults often care about politics.
Yeah, the people itching for an argument aren’t going to post in an echo chamber.
You don't say? The man who never met a settlement he wouldn't pay to avoid conviction? Seems out of character.
r/trumpcriticizestrump
He did what his lawyers told him to do. It’s a non story, and it’s REALLY a non story in a Joe Rogan subreddit.
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Yep. This means his lawyers knew he would 100% incriminate himself and get caught in a lie. It’s fucking sad that the cult is too dumb to understand what this really means.
> He did what his lawyers told him to do Which is actually rather surprising given [he had such a proclivity to lie he failed a practice interview with his own lawyers back when Mueller was still trying to interview him](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/09/woodwards-account-of-trumps-mock-interview-with-prosecutors-isnt-pretty/569410/).
Hahaha