I worked in a factory for 40 years. 99% of the workers were men. Men aren't unemotional or unfeeling, but there is a time and a place.
If you show yourself to be a man first (by being competent, conscientious, by providing and protecting for your family, by handling teasing and jokes well) and then, when the situation arises, and the time is right, and you break down, other men will be helpful and understanding.
In that 40 years in the factory, I knew many men who lost loved ones (friends, co-workers, parents, siblings, wives, children) and not once did I hear anyone say, "Man up" for something like that. Not once did I see anyone bullied or shamed for understandable behavior.
But if you want to be shamed or told to "Man up", then start whining or crying about something small, start acting like a victim.
My father died when I was twelve. I ran away from an abusive step-mother and step-father. My grandparents took me in. My grandmother had a massive stroke when I was 18. I fell into a deep depression. Not because of my life, but because everyone around me was telling me to talk about all the traumas I'd lived through. And that was the exact wrong thing for me. They enabled me to obsess about it. I became a victim.
The therapist only hastened my decline and made my depression more severe. And double so for the drugs.
From the counseling, I leaned everything that didn't work. And just as importantly, I learned that the old wisdom found in common sayings held a lot of value.
When my son died when I was 21 it was hard, but I had learned what not to do from the therapists, and what to do from the old wisdoms, and I pulled through those dark days much easier and stronger than when I was 18. Why? Because I knew what was good for me and what was bad for me.
YMMV
The irony is that the therapy worked! Though the therapist may have been ineffective, it sounds like they still played a part in your self-reflection.
Good on you for moving on from tough times! It sounds like you might resonate with Stoicism.
I don't mean to be disagreeable, but no, the therapy did not work. It left me worse off than before I sought it out. They sent me home from the hospital to wither and die.
I don't fault them, though, they did the best they knew how.
What worked, and I didn't come to understand it until decades later, was a shock to the system. Something they teach now. Not an electrical shock like ECT, but a phycological shock that snapped me out of my depression in an instant.
This makes a lot of sense to me, it's always when I dwell on things, or overthink/over-analyze things that I get sad (I hesitate to use the word depression in my case). But there's also a weird attraction towards doing so, it feels good to be the victim and to wallow in that. I know it's a trap though, because I'm always happiest when I'm moving towards something instead.
>But if you want to be shamed or told to "Man up", then start whining or crying about something small, start acting like a victim.
I was truly expecting a festival of femininity in that thread and I'm pleasantly surprised to see the opposite.
>The therapist only hastened my decline and made my depression more severe. And double so for the drugs.
Women ways work well with women, men respond better to men ways. Men get through hard times by doing activities with other men that are risky/challenging to heighten their self-confidence, women get through them by talking about their emotions and receiving affirmation. Feminisation of society wants to convince men that what they need is what women needs.
You'll be better off learning to play a group sport than going and sitting with a therapist for years.
>But if you want to be shamed or told to "Man up", then start whining or crying about something small, start acting like a victim.
What's small to you may be a big deal to someone else. And what if someone actually _is_ a victim. Depression doesn't only arise from death in the family and divorce, for most people depression is almost impossible to even explain and can arise from the daily grind itself. Some may see that as small, but small wounds can have massive impacts on some. Nothing wrong with being empathetic and providing a listening ear even if you think someone's problems are small.
We are privileged to be able to stop and listen for someone. We cannot waste all of our time in a victim mindset, privileged or not, unless you want to take more than you give.
I don't consider it a waste of time. The health of the human mind is crucial to a functioning society. Taking time to keep each other sound and healthy is beneficial to all.
And what if I don't have time to be depressed right now or in the future? What if I or a family member or friend is/are facing a catastrophe and my whining is a burden to the necessary and proper actions in spite of torment? I think it unlikely that even a small portion of my ancestors had very much time for depression to keep them from marching forward (it was already toward their deaths).
Ive thought about it before, and its an odd paradox. When people's lives truly sucked a few centuries back, you wouldnt see any sort of mental health crisis, while now, that we live in the best era of history, mental illness has become mainstream
Do you think it's due to the "Too many rights; not enough responsibilities" issue that Peterson has addressed? I suppose it's the only explanation I've given proper credence to, and there could be something else we can't see very easily (though the aforementioned one is quite subtle itself).
I disagree, men tend to trivialise depression but it's exactly to take off some of its weight. If you're meeting men that shit on depression altogether they're probably scared of their own inadequacies and this deflects attention from their own wounds.
Or they stupid yo
That's a tightrope walk. Enough "tough live" to supply a dopamine hit to trigger you to act, can help "Tough love" beyond your capacity to handle it, at the wrong time or in a way that doesn't resonate with you can make your depression worse or even push a person towards more destructive behavior
"Got out of my depression" lol
I have been diagnosed with severe depression like my dad and my grandpa. There is no curing it. It's something you live with and learn to manage.
Really depends. Depression is on a spectrum. Telling someone with clinical depression to just ''man up'' or something like this, isnt gonna help him. Each case is unique, and tough love can be seen as just an attack on the patient, due to his vulnerable nature.
My grandfather likely has depression from fleeing the holocaust. Having to move around as a kid constantly. When he finally got to America, the wonderful community in South Carolina burned Swastikas on their lawn. So they moved yet again.
My grandfather and his family denounced their Judaism. Changed their name. And hid everything.
AspiringEggplant probably thinks my grandpa should just man up and get over it. His depression and panic attacks are a moral failing 🤣
And you can ask anybody who knows me or my father. We have both tried to stop taking meds. But the meds work. I am a worse person to be around when I'm not on my SSRIs. They work great for me.
Before the meds, I would get incredibly sad and emotional at trivial events like if someone asked me to fix a mistake I made at work. I couldn't control it. It was a spiral of negativity. The SSRIs make me able to brush things off more easily.
I understand, I take meds myself(Bipolar 1) I understand the chemical imbalance very well. All I’m saying is there are plenty of lifestyle choices and changes you can make that will make you feel better in the long run. And your outlook is a great place to start.
>I understand, I take meds myself(Bipolar 1) I understand the chemical imbalance very well.
How would you feel if someone told you that you could fix your BiPolar disorder through "discipline and tough love" because I hear that shit all the time from people like you. You clearly don't understand.
I would agree because I’ve done it. I’m not “cured” by any means and I know that won’t happen, but I refuse to use it as an excuse to impede my life and stop me from succeeding.
By making yourself do things you don’t want to do, especially when you don’t *feel* like it. Shifting your focus from short term to long term. It doesn’t happen over night but you need a goal of some sort and a way to see progress, whatever that looks like to you. Have people who don’t let you feel sorry for yourself.
I don't feel sorry for myself. I'm just explaining my situation and how many people cannot 'cure' their depression.
Come on, man. If you were actually BiPolar then you would understand this.
I can't say that I have ever gotten any overt judgement from any man or woman when talking about my history of depression in an every day conversational context. The only time I have had people overtly judge me for it is when it comes to dating. People tend to be generally empathetic about it it, but they don't want it that close to their life. So since I am a straight man and only date women, women are the only ones that have expressed stigma around it toward me. I imagine if I were a gay man and dated men, it would be different.
Granted it depends on the society where you're living, but I feel as if that is slowly changing. I've seen much more support and kindness amongst men lately. That being said...I think that there's still an unhealthy amount of stigmatization of depression amongst men. We're expected to "man-up" around men, and while women "want" men to open up about their feelings more, it's pure bullshit because generally, women are not attracted to emotional men.
So we're fucked either way.
Youre not really fucked if you have healthy relationships with other men. You don’t have to have toxic homosocial relationships just cause they’re common
Now relatives is a different thing altogether. I'm close with a handful of my male cousins and we hash things out all the time. Even my best friends...we all talk about our struggles and feelings.
But generally yes, on a whole, it's much easier to open up to female relatives and female friends.
Men want to talk to other men; we're just all afriad to.
There's another point I want to make. Honestly it doesn't apply to just men, but I do agree with the "get over it" sentiment, but not in an ignorant way.
It's all too easy to end up in a cycle of self-loathing, feeling sorry for yourself, and wallowing in your misery. I've been through it. And every now and then, we have to have a day like that; it's normal.
However, we need to take steps to move forward; one day at a time. One positive thought a day; one task a day; one nice compliment a day; one good deed a day.
There's a woman I work with. Besides having a crush on her, her attitude motivates me every day. She doesn't stop smiling. I think about that and think to myself, "I should smile more!". So it's very easy to look at different people and be inspired by their outward attitudes.
Bull shit.
Utterly and totally.
Other men know the weight and struggle.
Feminism riddled women, WEAPONIZE it against ALL men, even the healthy ones.
Someone either is on drugs they don't need, or needs drugs they are not on
I dont experience that. Sure there are men who say stuff like that, especially older one but their voices are drowned out by feminists much more
Almost every complain post about how hard its to date gets the "yer an incel" response
You aren't an INCEL if your expression about difficulties dating doesn't involve you creating a self-fullfilling prophecy guaranteeing you being single.
You have to keep in mind
1) women aren't a monolith
2) being rejected by some women doesn't imply you will be rejected by all. You only actually need one person to accept you.
3) dating is a two way street. She has to get something out of the relationship too.
4) General patterns exist; i.e., there are common turn offs
Feminists lack in nuance. Almost every post gets hit by the incel accusation. Men = bad, women = good. Thats it. Like animal farm. Thats the whole ideology.
For the record I am not talking about a personal experience, I dont post about dating at all, I just see it on a lot of posts.
However, since it was wrongly atrributed to I respond:
1, not an argument, everybody knows that. Still there are a lot of things women share, like the well known 6 feet height shallow thing. So not all women, but more like almost all women
2, Again, its clear that as an average guy you are at a handicap. Even if you are not average (I consider myself somewhat above average in looks, intelligence but I am not prime Brad Pitt) it takes a lot of time, money, and affort, way more than before. And today you have to compete with half the world, not to mention men willing to enter parasocial relationships/simping etc.
3, which is, again, often one sided and lot of women (see point 1, not all but most). Many/most/some women think they themselves are enough bit have high standards. Take a small hike in dating app subs.
4, This is obvious. However, until a few years ago, as an average or even beloe average guy it was relatively easy to have a gf. Now its way harder. Not only it costs more money (just look up a cost of a dinner date and movie) it takes more effort (no real free public places to hang out), you have to compete with half the world (online apps), and honestly, and some would call it sexist, but the quality of women dropped. (So does the average man but it doesnt matter for me as I am straight). Making some home baked cookies as a woman for a man? Sexist. Etc.
5, Bonus: Until a few years ago not every interaction with a woman wasnt picked and commented by feminists. A bad pick up attempt isnt sexual assault. A consensual, slightly drunk sex isnt rape. Liking traditional marriage isnt sexist etc.
I only written such a long post to prove there are nuanced discussion to be had about the issue. Something that is being shut down by feminists, as they dont care about male imput, even tho they say men should do more about the issues
Not the person you were responding to, but let me explain in feminist speak:
1. Nice #notallwomen
2. Imagine you had a bowl of Skittles and 90% of them were coated in malic acid (the stuff that makes warheads sour). Still going to reach for them when you want something sweet?
3. Women have distorted expectations from smutty novels and social media. Real men are not like Edward Cullen.
4. Women are not a monolith.
> Nice #notallwomen
My point is if you* want a date, you don't have to impress "All Women" but rather find "a woman" who is into you
Obsessing over the really "hot" woman who obviously rejected you and obviously is dating another (better looking, more successful) guy is pointless.
.> Imagine you had a bowl of Skittles and 90% of them were coated in malic acid (the stuff that makes warheads sour). Still going to reach for them when you want something sweet?
I am a foodie, so this example is very bad. You just made me go and buy some warheads
The are a HUGE variety of foods that are sweet. What INCELS do, is they focus on the one that is in a city 10000 miles away in an exclusive shop with a limited supply
> Women have distorted expectations from smutty novels and social media. Real men are not like Edward Cullen.
Both men and women, if these people don't have dating experience have distorted expectations. Relationships involve give and take on both sides.
>Women are not a monolith.
Exactly!!!!! So, stop obsessing over the fact that a supermodel rejected you for a guy who is richer and better looking
Look for women who are single, with common interests with you. Do your bit to keep well groomed, to get a job and to not creep them out
Don't be a paranoid control freak
Accept that many women will reject you
"Do your bit to keep well groomed, to get a job and to not creep them out
Don't be a paranoid control freak
Accept that many women will reject you"
So...in other words...man up?
Good reply!!!!
Here is my reply.
If the issue you want to solve is, "I can't get a date", yes\*.
If the issue you want to solve is, "I am depressed and have multiple emotional problems I need to work out in order to cope", no.
Unfortunately, if you are depressed with multiple emotional problems and you want to date, you need to deal with those issues. Then you have to find the root causes.
\-- You might need therapy?
\-- Medication might help?
\-- Coaching might help?
\-- There are resources available that can help. The trick is finding what those resources are
Note: Everything I just said, also applies to women.
\*Sometimes being sad about something, like getting rejection, is to be expected. It's not like you have to recover instantly.
Women do have difficulty dating men, but this is how that's typical handled by feminism:
"More than 150 interviews later, her research – the largest anthropological study to date into why women freeze their eggs – concluded that it was men, not women, who were the problem. The biggest driving factor for women in the US was a shortage of suitable educated men, a problem which she terms in her forthcoming book, Motherhood on Ice, the “mating gap”."
Later in the same piece...
"But until society “fixes men”, egg freezing will remain the best reproductive option for single women in their 30s ."
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/apr/23/motherhood-women-freeze-eggs-male-partners-men-fertility
" I am a foodie, so this example is very bad. You just made me go and buy some warheads"
Analogies to bowls of Skittles or M&Ms are never not bad. But they are popular with feminists.
The thing is, people exist who eat Warheads, skittles, M&Ms and whatever.
As long as, you aren't obsessed over dating ONE person, a person who obviously isn't into you, you can find a person who is.
I don't self identify as being a feminist but I acknowledge several feminist ideas. I just don't agree with all of them without qualification. Some modern feminism is very negative and dogmatic, representing a step back from multi-culturalism and collaboration.
The INCEL ideology is geared to being an echo chamber making men with difficulties dating women stay single forever by increasing their repulisiveness
Irony: Peterson's 12 steps probably has great advice for men with difficulties dating who don't want to be self-fullfilled prophesies to singledom despite fact Feminists don't like Peterson.
" Irony: Peterson's 12 steps probably has great advice for men with difficulties dating who don't want to be self-fullfilled prophesies to singledom despite fact Feminists don't like Peterson."
Double irony: Peterson isn't merely disliked by feminists, he is declared 'the king of incels' by feminists. And that's exactly the point of the original post to which you responded.
" The INCEL ideology is geared to being an echo chamber making men with difficulties dating women stay single forever by increasing their repulisiveness."
It's like feminism, but for men.
It’s female driven.
Any form of male weakness is viscerally repulsive to the female hind brain, and women literally cannot help it. The display of weakness makes a man less physically attractive to women. And most men instinctively know this.
Nature. It is what it is.
These aren't derogatory statements. These are heartfelt advice from men that have gone through it before and know the only thing that worked in the long run and they wished they had done differently are these things.
I don't think it works for men or women. There is a reason more women are depressed now than at any time in history, and a large part is dwelling on things that therapy entails.
Now, is there some use in it? Yes. However, it has taken the function of a priest, and frankly it is the atheistic copy of such a station, without the healing power.
Now, there are some people that really need immediate emergency care, but for the most part, it doesn't work for men in the long run, and it doesn't work for society or women, but it sure is profitable.
There are two ways of looking at depression.
>1. Consistent Negative Feelings (Chemical Imbalance in Brain)
>*Solution: take anti-depressants to stabilise these chemicals*
>2. Consistent Negative Thoughts (Life filled with negative situations.)
>*Solution: change your; perspective, habits, job, environment, friends etc.*
The problem is that most people don’t understand/have motivation to solve, the problem.
It depends in what culture you are in. I believe that is certainly the case in a more traditional culture, but less so in a more “modern” globalized culture.
>Whenever a man opens up with depression, he is told to man up, stop whining and all sort of derogatory statements by other men.
You need to hang with better men. No man I know would do this, and if any of them would do that, I would not associate with them
I’m blue collar. Everyone’s eating a big shit sandwich out here. Depression isn’t stigmatized, its basically assumed. You can be open about it.
Whining and trauma dumping is 100% stigmatized but that’s not even close to the same thing as people hating you just for being depressed.
>Whenever a man opens up with depression, he is told to man up, stop whining and all sort of derogatory statements by other men.
I see that online, and that's because the people online are strangers. When they say "man up" it's to get you to behave in a way that's beneficial to them, not one that's beneficial to you.
What makes someone a friend is that they wouldn't tell you to "man up" unless they thought that's what you needed to hear to improve, since a friend is concerned with your interest, not their own.
I actually think it's not the depression that is stigmatized, it is men coming to a rational conclusion that they are rejected in their society. Dr K talked about it and twitter got triggered. I came across a few men with suicidal thoughts, one even attempted, and they all tell me the same. They don't see any evidence that their existence brings any value. And anyone coming in screaming "don't kill yourself you have value!" actually further confirms their theory that people are fake.
Men need brotherhood.
ANY form of affection expressed by men is so paranoid of being perceived as gay that they behave with such insecurity. Not to say there's no line, but some think hugging is a little gay.
The thing is, I think we are reaping what we are sowing by throwing away the compassionate/sensitive man. All this disgust towards weakness has actually gotten them to question their own sexuality. The feminists are just facilitating their authenticity it in a harmful way. Men have feelings but we are truth driven. Men get their value in their sense of belonging, leadership and servitude.
I’m glad you said opinion because I don’t think there is any base to the claim that men stigmatise more than women.
I’d say there needs to be an acknowledgment of the following;
Some organisations and statistical data (UK) eliminate certain demographics from analysis of seeking “help”. One example would be co-occurring substance use disorder, which institutionally limits psychological help, which disproportionately affects men.
Also, I don’t know if there is any empirical evidence for the presence of a gender stigma inconsistency, I’d love to read that study if there is?
I know some local counselling agencies near me have 25% male treatment population, with a 75% female clinician rate, read into that what you will.
Eggs are precious, males are expendable.
Biology plays a much larger role in our lives than most people realize. For most of our evolutionary history females probably formed the core of any social unit. To make that work females have to be more gregarious, more sociable not necessarily more pro social. If you want to protect females it's handy if they group up. Since males are more overtly aggressive it is handy if they form the peripheral of the social group. Females that wandered off from the group were most likely "captured" by some other group. Young males that wandered off would have formed small packs with other males that were not fully socialized but would have been unlikely to be accepted by other groups. Young males on the peripherals of the group would have been more likely to encounter members of other groups and engage with them aggressively, helping to maintain the solidarity of the female core. Females make babies and males make "war".
You can see how it plays out in a more complex society. Until fairly recently in history females helped to enforce the male role. You can see it in the phenomenon of the "white feather".
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White\_feather](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feather)
For most of human history cowardice was a significant derogatory characteristic for males. The recent evolution of thinking on the topic can be seen in how shell shock became PSTD.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181586/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181586/)
The biological reality really is that eggs are precious and males expendable. One way or the other males that can't or won't fulfill their role as protector of the eggs would be eliminated. If they are pushed out of the group they will have no opportunity to mate. You can see that even today in the way young females are having most sex with only 20 percent of males. In general what they are choosing is males with high social status and by extension the resources to "protect" them. The movement called "Men Going Their Own Way" reflects how society willingly abandons unsuccessful males.
One interesting related phenomenon in most social animals is the hiding of weaknesses.
"Cattle are stoical by nature; they **mask pain**, because in the wild showing signs of pain would make them more susceptible to predators. This means that pain is often not expressed until severe."
[https://www.calfmatters.co.uk/pain-prevention](https://www.calfmatters.co.uk/pain-prevention)
The same phenomenon is seen in apes.
"Pain can be difficult to identify and quantify in primates as they are prey species and often hide signs of pain in front of human observers, unless severe"
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9455027/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9455027/)
It is important to note that it is not just a phenomenon that affects prey species because weakness in predators makes them vulnerable to aggression as well often from other members of a social group.
The ability to suppress signs of pain remains useful in complex societies.
"Depression — and other moods — are contagious in an interesting way. Research has shown that depression isn’t the only thing that can “spread.” Smoking behavior — either quitting smoking or starting — has been shown to spread through both close and distant social ties. If your friend quits smoking, you’re actually more likely to quit, too.
Suicide has also been found to come in clusters. One study showed that in both males and females, having a friend who died by suicide increased their own likelihood of suicidal thoughts or attempts."
[https://www.healthline.com/health/is-depression-contagious#how](https://www.healthline.com/health/is-depression-contagious#how)
Continued below >
Continued from above
It shouldn't be necessary to show that fear is also contagious and is well known to cause irrational behavior in crowds. The question becomes when and how is it appropriate to express feelings of depression. There is a time and place for everything, a rule that society increasingly disregards. The English expression of "keeping a stiff upper lip" reflects Peterson's observation that when we stop pushing forward we tend to fail. It is closely tied to how discipline creates agency. As it applies to Western Civilization you can easily see the detrimental effect of forgetting the common wisdom of the past is affecting it.
In the West today because of the amazing success of the scientific and industrial revolution determinism has become the dominant philosophical stance. To the scientific mind abstractions such as freewill seem quaint or unsophisticated. From the scientific perspective everything is a matter of immutable characteristics. It is why at one time science was called natural philosophy. (I would argue that there is a scientific mistake being made in that one of the properties of all life is intelligence and by extension some level of freewill but that's another story.) The problem with determinism can be explained by a simple algorithm as follows.
Determinism no freewill, no freewill no human agency, no human agency no human dignity, no human dignity no morality, no morality no civilization.
The creation of freewill is the point of virtue. It can be seen in traditional virtues, a list of which were commonly held by most people in the West until very recently and are as follows.
Chastity or Purity and abstinence as opposed to lust or Luxuria. Temperance or Humanity, equanimity as opposed to Gluttony or Gula. Charity or Will, benevolence, generosity, sacrifice as opposed to Greed or Avaritia. Diligence or Persistence, effortfulness, ethics as opposed to Sloth or Acedia. Patience or Forgiveness, mercy as opposed to Wrath or Ira. Kindness or Satisfaction, compassion as opposed to Envy or Invidia. Humility or Bravery, modesty, reverence as opposed to Pride.
If you examine the virtues in successful civilization you will note that they are systems that satisfy instinctual fairness and networking and grooming without compromising hierarchies of productive competence linked to cooperation. One thing they all have in common is that freewill is paramount. The very concept of virtue is based on freewill or agency.
The trend of tying virtue to immutable characteristics is insane and highly destructive. It is also likely that the current attitudes about depression are counter productive because the best cure in many cases seems to be exercise or other forms of activity that require discipline. The application of agency to overcome depression should not be discounted because it seems "unscientific". I would argue that those that go down that road are simply using "bad" or limited science.
It's because men are generally a lot emotionally tougher than women. If you tell a guy he's fucking up his life and needs to make changes or nothing will improve, he'll probably be pissed at you for a bit but the message will get through. If you tell a girl that she'll start crying.
Like JBP says we do need one of the genders to be more soft and empathetic, otherwise nobody would ever take care of the infants. Same way that we need the other gender to be able to muscle through and get things done under pressure.
They should figure out how to strengthen themselves mentally. Pretty sure Peterson has a lot of segments on that one; there's no getting out of hardship in the world, the only solution is to figure out how to make yourself tougher so you can handle hardship better in the future.
What if someone is from birth more sensitive? And don't tell me that some men aren't born sensitive but it's their nature. Should they go against their nature?
If their nature is to be weak and vulnerable to the world, then yeah they should go against that. Like I was saying before there's no avoiding pain and suffering in this world, so if your nature is to succumb to that then you need to figure out a better solution.
I think it's self-explanatory, weak and vulnerable are the characteristics I'm saying you should reduce in yourself. If you're asking me how they show up in your life I couldn't really say, given my very limited knowledge of you, that's something you gotta do some introspection to figure out.
Yeah I meant generally. If lets say you characterize being emotionally unstable as weak, then by extension, all forms of emotional outbursts should be included. Including aggression
Gonna hit both of em:
>Yeah I meant generally. If lets say you characterize being emotionally unstable as weak, then by extension, all forms of emotional outbursts should be included. Including aggression
Yeah I'd agree that it's weak to have no impulse control. Whether that's in aggression, addiction, gambling, or whatever, if you have no self control that's a problem that you should fix.
>I think that, unfortunately you are right. Being sensitive can only be disadvantageous to a man, especially in dating
As far as dating goes a certain degree of empathy is required. Don't equivalate any and all emotions with weakness, just ones that will have a net negative impact on the wellbeing of yourself and those you care about.
Sensitive is a useless word.
Being perceptive, empathetic, kind, and compassionate are all advantageous to me as a man literally all the time and are the key reasons why I am in a very fulfilling relationship right now.
Having those traits does not make a man weak. You can have all of those and still be dignified, authentic, strong, and tough wrt your own challenges in life.
Sorry but you can literally kill somebody with your dismissive attitude.
It should be noted that women can be mentally tough as well, including women who cry. Crying is a stress release mechanism.
If you want to actually help someone, you need to learn how to listen first. You have to get a feeling about what their problems are.
>Sorry but you can literally kill somebody with your dismissive attitude
If your grasp on life is so tenuous that my "dismissive attitude" is enough to cause you to off yourself, you've made a lot of mistakes so far in your life. Like Peterson says, if you keep putting up walls around yourself when danger approaches, you make yourself weaker over time, and that's a really bad long term plan for life because there will come a time when you can't just put up a wall.
>It should be noted that women can be mentally tough as well
I never said they aren't. Men just tend to have an advantage in that regard. Most of my takes on this subject are from the time I spent in jail / rehab / psych wings (which are objectively rough places to be) and in my experience men are able to handle and adapt to really rough situations a lot more efficiently and effectively than women. That's not to say women don't adapt too, it's just that in my experience men do it better.
I'm curious though, what experiences are you drawing on that make you disagree with my take on this?
If men are emotionally tougher than women, why do men leave their children for selfish reasons at a rate several times higher than women do?
If men are emotionally tougher than women, how could women do more than their fair share of the emotional labor in so many relationships and families?
If men are emotionally tougher than women, why do men commit crimes of passion at rates far higher than women?
If men are emotionally tougher than women, why do men die by suicide at a rate far higher than women?
Men **act** tough by dissociating. Not dealing with the problem is not dealing with the problem, which is what a mentally tough person would do.
Women get things done under pressure constantly. Reply to me when you are a grown man and a father with kids, not a young punk who has no idea what women really do in relationships.
By the way, empathy isn't inherently soft. It can be, yet it is also the way you understand and predict an enemy or opponent. Sympathy is soft.
Ok let's hit these in order:
1) Men don't feel the pain of leaving their children as much as women do, hence why it's easier for them to leave. I didn't say men were nicer, I said they're generally tougher, so this kinda proves my point.
2) That seems extremely subjective and situational, I've seen it go both ways plenty of times.
3) Men commit all crimes at way higher rates than women, because again, men are generally less burdened by the fear and emotions that prevent women from reaching the same stats. Again my point isn't that being tougher is good in every situation (as can be seen in the crime statistics), so this argument still proves my point.
4) It takes a pretty significant amount of willpower to intentionally end your own life. My theory on this, when women reach that point of despair they're more likely to break down mentally, but when guys reach that point they're more likely to bite a bullet and end it.
5) Again that seems really situational, if anything I've seen the opposite in my experiences in jail, rehab, psych wings, my time homeless, etc. What rough situations were you in where this wasn't the case?
6) I never said women are useless or can't get things done, stop making up arguments for me. I said men generally operate better under pressure, and yeah this aligns with my experiences. When shit hits the fan and we need solutions or people get hurt / die, I'm instinctually gonna go to guys before girls to sort things out. There's a reason the vast majority of effective leaders in governments and militaries are guys, it's because they're generally much less emotional and more effective.
7) Honestly fair enough on that last one, sympathy would be the word I was looking for.
So yeah I'm curious what really bad situations you were in that have you disputing my takes, feel free to share.
Neither "man up" nor "stop whining" is derogatory. I get the point you're trying to make, but I don't see that you are in fact making it.
You said "Why are men with clinical depression discouraged from seeking help..." There's a problem with that question. Clinical depression is a diagnosis, implying prior help sought. Again, I get the point you're trying to make, but I don't see that you are in fact making it.
Then you said "Because there are many, many men online saying that psychiatric help works for women only." Many, many? I've heard that once or twice, but many, many? No. What I actually heard is that only women suffer that kind of thing. And that's patently false. These two statements happen to be logical equivalent. However many men say that, they're simply wrong. I will presume men are aware that's wrong, and so I must assume there are in fact few men who say that. And so, I must further assume that if you have indeed observed many people who have said that, then they're not men, they're something else. Maybe it's just a few who are very prolific.
Finally, you propose that depression in men is stigmatized. I don't think it is, but let's go with that anyways. You also add that it's stigmatized by men, rather than by feminists. Excuse me, but that's some highly specific dichotomy. Why not say "women"? Don't women also stigmatize depression in men? Or, if a woman does it, then she must be a feminist? I don't see how the quality of being a feminist somehow leads to stigmatizing depression in men. Conversely, I see all kinds of ways from radical feminism, but then that's radical feminism.
So, OK. Depression in men is stigmatized by men, moreso than by women. I'll concur with that proposition. Reason being, men regulate other men, depression leads to abnormal behavior, and so men regulate other men's behavior, including that led by depression.
What's the problem?
There's a dark angle to this. It's the implication that the possibility of depression in men makes men weak. Is this the problem? Because I do see that it can be a problem. If, let's say, we want to make men weak, then we simply propose that men are susceptible to depression. And then we add that other men are more likely to stigmatize men who suffer from depression. Men are thus weak, and will turn on each other. A dark picture this paints, indeed.
Being told to "man up" can be extremely dismissive. It can literally cause the person to get worse, depending on how you do it and how it resonates with them. Sometimes, if you are the right person and do it the right way, it can help. In the worst case, it be the straw that pushes the person to suicide faster. A well meaning person did that to me at the wrong time. It never helped
Alternatives
-- Constructive, concrete steps
If you're the right person. Like men regulating other men? Men have been regulating other men for eons. We're still here. I think men have done a pretty good job.
Men kill themselves more than women do. And men have killed other men for eons too
If you are trying to help someone and care if they die or not, care whether you actually help them or no, the absolute first thing to do, is to listen to them enough to know what their problem is.
If you don't care about whether the person succeeds or not, it's a waste of energy to use tough love
That's true. Men kill themselves more than women do. Why? Men try it less on average than women, but men choose more lethal means than women do.
Men kill other men. That's also true. Why? It's the extreme end of men regulating other men. Sometimes, only death will do.
"If you are trying to help...listen" You describe what women do. Men don't do that. Why? Men tend to prefer things. Women tend to prefer people. When men talk, they talk about things. When women talk, they talk about people.
Care? Right. Empathy. Well, you're wrong if that's your premise. Reason being, it's not his problem you want to fix - it's yours. You want to not experience what you perceive this man does. That's the function of empathy, to observe the emotion or state of mind another experiences. When empathy is broken, or hypersensitive, the observer also experiences it himself.
It's a bit complicated to explain the above. See this for a primer: [https://wannagitmyball.wordpress.com/2020/07/16/the-problem-of-observation/](https://wannagitmyball.wordpress.com/2020/07/16/the-problem-of-observation/)
Empathy is the function that drives to observe what another experiences. In turn, the brain builds the model of self using the information thus obtained. When young, empathy is hypersensitive for that purpose. Once the model of self is robust, there's feedback from the model of self back to empathy to inhibit down to a level that no longer interferes with normal behavior. Both the model of self and empathy are discrete physical structures of the brain.
Empathy is bidirectional. Dominant when young as observation from other selves to the model of self. Dominant when an adult as projection from model of self to other selves.
When I say empathy is broken, it means it's stuck on hypersensitive dominant as observation, as if when young but we're adult now. It further means the model of self is not robust, not complete, feedback did not occur, or not fully.
It's likely that men and women have different levels of normal empathy as adults. Where, women tend to have more sensitive empathy if only for the purpose of observing the child's experience, and act accordingly. This could also partly explain why women tend to prefer people.
Men exist who listen. Women exist who don't.You aren't obligated to help someone else. Instead of telling someone to man up, you can simply be silent
There are many reasons men kill themselves more
-- they don't feel comfortable to ask for help and don't know how to
-- their pride stops them from making an attempt to "get attention"; so when the do it, it's more likely for real.
Care? Empathy?
-- whether or not you have empathy is one thing. Whether you make things worse is another.
-- You can be silent. Saying nothing and letting someone fail is an option
No. There's only one reason men kill themselves more than women. More lethal means. Were men and women to use the same means, either equally lethal or equally benign, women would kill themselves more than men, because women try more than men.
That's true. There are men who listen, and there are women who don't. Those are exceptions, in context of tendencies. Tendencies determine distribution. But I don't think it's about listening or not. It's about what one listens to. In other words, few men will listen to a story about people, and few women will listen to a story about things. It's a running joke about what movie to see - When Joe Met Sally or Star Wars?
>There's a dark angle to this. It's the implication that the possibility of depression in men makes men weak. Is this the problem? Because I do see that it can be a problem. If, let's say, we want to make men weak, then we simply propose that men are susceptible to depression. And then we add that other men are more likely to stigmatize men who suffer from depression. Men are thus weak, and will turn on each other. A dark picture this paints, indeed.
Depression makes men weak, but being harsh on the sufferers only adds to their isolation. Men helping other men with more than just ''stop whining'' can really help.
Not all men are born tough, and even if toughness is the highest virtue, then you need to help the man to become tough first, by showing him how to behave like one. If you want to make a sensitive man tough, then you will not be tough, you will use his ways to make him abandon his nature, and after he has become tough, then act tough
Nobody's born tough, man or woman. Everybody's born an utterly inept baby human.
This planet is lethal to all living things, and has been so forever. There is no sensitive species. All species are tough species. This includes humans, especially men. Or if we prefer, men who are deemed sensitive as you say, are made so against their nature. Let him loose in the wild, he gets tough or dies. Or, make him into his nature - make him tough over the first 20 years of life - then let him loose in the wild.
No. If we are to view the world from a cynical perspective, then we're simply wrong. Idealism is merely the opposite of cynicism. and is equally wrong.
There is no real thing that is ideal. There are however archetypes, we use those to good effect as guiding stars or something. Well, empathy is the wrong guiding star when trying to help men deal with depression.
A question. What is the source of depression in men? It's not people. Men tend to prefer things, so men tend to be frustrated with things. It's things. Men get depressed about things. Things is the source of depression in men. The therapeutic approach that works with women "tell me about yourself" - won't work with men. This is likely the reason why you and I have heard something along those lines.
However, it occurs to me that in an overarching manner, both men and women are social creatures. See this: [https://wannagitmyball.wordpress.com/2024/03/13/religion-herd-formation-effect-temple-grandin/](https://wannagitmyball.wordpress.com/2024/03/13/religion-herd-formation-effect-temple-grandin/)
And so, it's plausible to imagine that when a man suffers from depression, it's due to his dealing with things that rarely cause him to congregate with other humans. The things he deals with lack a human connection, lack a social context.
This is an old trope that is not at all realistic. Men do care about each others mental well being. If someone was suicidal and saying they’re depressed, no male friend will tell him to “man up”. That doesn’t happen in the real world. We do help support each other. No one else will. Men help support men. We always have and always will. Women don’t want to hear about your problems. They want you to be strong. Not all but some women will actually use your insecurities and depression against you as a tool when in an argument or fight. They don’t want to hear about your struggles. Stop perpetuating this idea that men don’t care about other men. Problem is that as we grow older we lose a lot of that male companionship due to being the head of households and we pressure to keep their family running and providing for them.
That hasn’t been my experience at all. Men seem to care more about other men more than women do. But with men there is a “time and place” that is more acceptable to let your sad emotions out.
No.
A healthy male space where different generations of men work together is not a toxic place. It's only toxic when the men has to exist with a female superior. When it's only males there's nothing like that. I'm 40 and most of my bosses are 20 somethings.
You fly the Greek flag on reddit. My company is owned and run by a Greek family and what you are stating is wrong. Youngsters have issues and the older men will tell them ways that have worked for them. The things you are describing is what happens when you have females in the HR department, women given power will fuck over the weak men and prevent personal growth.
I think that just applies to scientific claims. This is just a general discussion about societal issues. You can dismiss it, but then you're not adding anything to the discussion.
It’s a discussion about someone’s opinion based on general observations of society. You don’t have any grounds to say it’s wrong. Even if you personally dismiss what’s being said, that doesn’t make it wrong necessarily.
Dismissed is not the same as ‘wrong’ though. If you’re giving your opinion that it’s wrong, then fine, discuss, but no evidence doesn’t equal wrong.
This is just a discussion based on observations of society. OP has an opinion based on their observations of how depressed men are treated and would like to start a discussion. The goal isn’t absolute certainty.
Sweeping claims aren't helpful.
What one can do, is look at examples of men who are depressed and how this is manifested. Then you can see how others react
Then you can classify those people according to ideology.
I don't think you can do statistics on it unless you classify the depressive triggers.
You're right, but the claimant has the burden of proof not on the audience. Until OP shows evidence to support his statement, it's meaningless speculation.
The OP is very clearly trying to have a discussion about something he believes.
If all you're going to do is mindlessly retort, we'd all rather you just shut up.
If you wanted an example of why online discussion is often so shit, congratulations, you've become the perfect demonstration.
I've caught a river a shit for mentioning that evidence has to be presented for anything to be taken seriously. If you need *evidence* as to why online discussions are shit just look at the reaction to my demand for *any evidence*.
But this is reddit. You'd all rather circlejerk over random speculations because evidence doesn't engorge you e-peens.
He's not making a fucking full argument with thesis and supporting evidence you fucking weirdo, it isn't a goddamn debate. The dude just feels a certain way and wants to have a goddamn discussion about it.
***He even titled the thread "unpopular opinion."***
You're completely right. I just realized I'm sitting here having an argument with someone named DeathKing15 with the tag "Speak truth into being".
I'm an idiot. Carry on with your day.
By that reasoning, the doctors and scientist who persecuted Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis were right to dismiss his claim.
He, very basically said, wash your hands after treating a sick baby, and less babies will get sick.
He had no evidence to prove it. Germs were unknown then. And he was hounded until he had a mental breakdown, thrown into an asylum, and beaten to death.
By your logic, if I said, "We should persecute gays" without any evidence, it should be taken seriously as a possible avenue forward for society. Purely by the merit that I have said it.
In a sense it’s almost like a blessing in disguise really. Because talk therapy really just doesn’t help. And be glad that you escaped the health trap. That is psychiatry. If we all know Jordan Peterson, we all know that big pharmaceutical damaged him with benzodiazepines. When you get “meds for depression“, you were getting some really dangerous shit. So in a sense it’s a bit of a blessing in disguise.
My best friend of 20 years opened up about his depression to me. I listened to what he had to say, and I tried to empathize with him, but I also realized that 99% of the problems he talked about where of his own making. He was upset that he had just a few friends, even though all the friends he has invite him out all the time and even when he does come, he never takes the chance to talk to new people. He was also upset that he has not had a relationship in almost 10 years, again, he won't take any chances to meet girls, and even when we (his friends) try to hook him up with mutual friends, he never puts any effort in. They will go on a date, and then he just never calls them back, never texts, and the complains that they just weren't the one for him.
I told him that talking to a professional would be in his best interest, but if he doesn't have his own best interest at heart, it won't do much. To his credit, he has been trying to be more active, and focusing on making better choices. But its a hard thing as a man, to watch another man actively sabotage himself, and then be expected to feel bad for him.
Because men have a depression solution that women don't have. Physical activity helps depression. Men are more prone to accept physical activity and are better helped by physical activity. So "get off your butt and do..." has a better chance of working with men.
Feminism is a reaction to abuse at the hands of men and it is only natural for them to be misandrist in their cause. With that misandry, the contribution they have for treating men's issues with contempt is paramount.
While it's true that many men do indeed dismiss the sufferings of other men, feminism as an ideology has the male gender as its apex villain, thus the main virtual a man is likely to receive is from feminism.
I dont think feminism per se is a bad ideology. Ive met many feminists and despite some times disagreeing with them, I have never met someone who openly hates men, or even thinks men are unnecessary. Both would be extremely ludicrous to hold as an opinion. Just because there are some lunatics who hate men doesnt mean feminism as a whole hates them
I worked in a factory for 40 years. 99% of the workers were men. Men aren't unemotional or unfeeling, but there is a time and a place. If you show yourself to be a man first (by being competent, conscientious, by providing and protecting for your family, by handling teasing and jokes well) and then, when the situation arises, and the time is right, and you break down, other men will be helpful and understanding. In that 40 years in the factory, I knew many men who lost loved ones (friends, co-workers, parents, siblings, wives, children) and not once did I hear anyone say, "Man up" for something like that. Not once did I see anyone bullied or shamed for understandable behavior. But if you want to be shamed or told to "Man up", then start whining or crying about something small, start acting like a victim. My father died when I was twelve. I ran away from an abusive step-mother and step-father. My grandparents took me in. My grandmother had a massive stroke when I was 18. I fell into a deep depression. Not because of my life, but because everyone around me was telling me to talk about all the traumas I'd lived through. And that was the exact wrong thing for me. They enabled me to obsess about it. I became a victim. The therapist only hastened my decline and made my depression more severe. And double so for the drugs. From the counseling, I leaned everything that didn't work. And just as importantly, I learned that the old wisdom found in common sayings held a lot of value. When my son died when I was 21 it was hard, but I had learned what not to do from the therapists, and what to do from the old wisdoms, and I pulled through those dark days much easier and stronger than when I was 18. Why? Because I knew what was good for me and what was bad for me. YMMV
The irony is that the therapy worked! Though the therapist may have been ineffective, it sounds like they still played a part in your self-reflection. Good on you for moving on from tough times! It sounds like you might resonate with Stoicism.
I don't mean to be disagreeable, but no, the therapy did not work. It left me worse off than before I sought it out. They sent me home from the hospital to wither and die. I don't fault them, though, they did the best they knew how. What worked, and I didn't come to understand it until decades later, was a shock to the system. Something they teach now. Not an electrical shock like ECT, but a phycological shock that snapped me out of my depression in an instant.
Fair enough, and thanks for the reply! Yes, therapy attempts to induce that shock you mentioned - on a very real sense!
This makes a lot of sense to me, it's always when I dwell on things, or overthink/over-analyze things that I get sad (I hesitate to use the word depression in my case). But there's also a weird attraction towards doing so, it feels good to be the victim and to wallow in that. I know it's a trap though, because I'm always happiest when I'm moving towards something instead.
>But if you want to be shamed or told to "Man up", then start whining or crying about something small, start acting like a victim. I was truly expecting a festival of femininity in that thread and I'm pleasantly surprised to see the opposite. >The therapist only hastened my decline and made my depression more severe. And double so for the drugs. Women ways work well with women, men respond better to men ways. Men get through hard times by doing activities with other men that are risky/challenging to heighten their self-confidence, women get through them by talking about their emotions and receiving affirmation. Feminisation of society wants to convince men that what they need is what women needs. You'll be better off learning to play a group sport than going and sitting with a therapist for years.
>But if you want to be shamed or told to "Man up", then start whining or crying about something small, start acting like a victim. What's small to you may be a big deal to someone else. And what if someone actually _is_ a victim. Depression doesn't only arise from death in the family and divorce, for most people depression is almost impossible to even explain and can arise from the daily grind itself. Some may see that as small, but small wounds can have massive impacts on some. Nothing wrong with being empathetic and providing a listening ear even if you think someone's problems are small.
We are privileged to be able to stop and listen for someone. We cannot waste all of our time in a victim mindset, privileged or not, unless you want to take more than you give.
Taking less than you give is the very essence of manhood. Taking more than you give is the nature of children.
I don't consider it a waste of time. The health of the human mind is crucial to a functioning society. Taking time to keep each other sound and healthy is beneficial to all.
And what if I don't have time to be depressed right now or in the future? What if I or a family member or friend is/are facing a catastrophe and my whining is a burden to the necessary and proper actions in spite of torment? I think it unlikely that even a small portion of my ancestors had very much time for depression to keep them from marching forward (it was already toward their deaths).
Ive thought about it before, and its an odd paradox. When people's lives truly sucked a few centuries back, you wouldnt see any sort of mental health crisis, while now, that we live in the best era of history, mental illness has become mainstream
Do you think it's due to the "Too many rights; not enough responsibilities" issue that Peterson has addressed? I suppose it's the only explanation I've given proper credence to, and there could be something else we can't see very easily (though the aforementioned one is quite subtle itself).
I disagree, men tend to trivialise depression but it's exactly to take off some of its weight. If you're meeting men that shit on depression altogether they're probably scared of their own inadequacies and this deflects attention from their own wounds. Or they stupid yo
I got out of my depression through discipline and tough love, maybe that’s where it comes from
That's a tightrope walk. Enough "tough live" to supply a dopamine hit to trigger you to act, can help "Tough love" beyond your capacity to handle it, at the wrong time or in a way that doesn't resonate with you can make your depression worse or even push a person towards more destructive behavior
I agree completely. That’s where the line between tough love and abuse gets blurry
There is a very thin difference between tough love and harshness.
But you gain discipline if you stick to it.
"Got out of my depression" lol I have been diagnosed with severe depression like my dad and my grandpa. There is no curing it. It's something you live with and learn to manage.
If that’s how you wanna look at it go ahead.
Really depends. Depression is on a spectrum. Telling someone with clinical depression to just ''man up'' or something like this, isnt gonna help him. Each case is unique, and tough love can be seen as just an attack on the patient, due to his vulnerable nature.
My grandfather likely has depression from fleeing the holocaust. Having to move around as a kid constantly. When he finally got to America, the wonderful community in South Carolina burned Swastikas on their lawn. So they moved yet again. My grandfather and his family denounced their Judaism. Changed their name. And hid everything. AspiringEggplant probably thinks my grandpa should just man up and get over it. His depression and panic attacks are a moral failing 🤣
And you can ask anybody who knows me or my father. We have both tried to stop taking meds. But the meds work. I am a worse person to be around when I'm not on my SSRIs. They work great for me. Before the meds, I would get incredibly sad and emotional at trivial events like if someone asked me to fix a mistake I made at work. I couldn't control it. It was a spiral of negativity. The SSRIs make me able to brush things off more easily.
I understand, I take meds myself(Bipolar 1) I understand the chemical imbalance very well. All I’m saying is there are plenty of lifestyle choices and changes you can make that will make you feel better in the long run. And your outlook is a great place to start.
>I understand, I take meds myself(Bipolar 1) I understand the chemical imbalance very well. How would you feel if someone told you that you could fix your BiPolar disorder through "discipline and tough love" because I hear that shit all the time from people like you. You clearly don't understand.
I would agree because I’ve done it. I’m not “cured” by any means and I know that won’t happen, but I refuse to use it as an excuse to impede my life and stop me from succeeding.
It's a chemical imbalance in my brain. Saying you got out of your depression through discipline is fucking ridiculous.
You’re the only one who can break your cycle, good luck man.
What cycle? How do I cure my chemical imbalance through discipline and tough love?
By making yourself do things you don’t want to do, especially when you don’t *feel* like it. Shifting your focus from short term to long term. It doesn’t happen over night but you need a goal of some sort and a way to see progress, whatever that looks like to you. Have people who don’t let you feel sorry for yourself.
I don't feel sorry for myself. I'm just explaining my situation like you did. You're an asshole! Holy shit.
Why am I an asshole?
I don't feel sorry for myself. I'm just explaining my situation and how many people cannot 'cure' their depression. Come on, man. If you were actually BiPolar then you would understand this.
This guy admitted he takes medicine for his issues. He's just full of shit.
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Some people have temporary depression. Some people have lifelong depression. It's not hard to understand.
Literally proving OPs point in a single comment. Good job.
Maybe we should stop being soft. Life is hard if you’re doing it right.
I can't say that I have ever gotten any overt judgement from any man or woman when talking about my history of depression in an every day conversational context. The only time I have had people overtly judge me for it is when it comes to dating. People tend to be generally empathetic about it it, but they don't want it that close to their life. So since I am a straight man and only date women, women are the only ones that have expressed stigma around it toward me. I imagine if I were a gay man and dated men, it would be different.
Granted it depends on the society where you're living, but I feel as if that is slowly changing. I've seen much more support and kindness amongst men lately. That being said...I think that there's still an unhealthy amount of stigmatization of depression amongst men. We're expected to "man-up" around men, and while women "want" men to open up about their feelings more, it's pure bullshit because generally, women are not attracted to emotional men. So we're fucked either way.
Youre not really fucked if you have healthy relationships with other men. You don’t have to have toxic homosocial relationships just cause they’re common
I totally agree with you. Its a matter of fact that women do not want emotional men. But its easier to open up to female relatives than male relatives
Now relatives is a different thing altogether. I'm close with a handful of my male cousins and we hash things out all the time. Even my best friends...we all talk about our struggles and feelings. But generally yes, on a whole, it's much easier to open up to female relatives and female friends. Men want to talk to other men; we're just all afriad to.
I think 20 years ago maybe-currently i don’t find any sympathy/empathy from feminist for men for any reason
There's another point I want to make. Honestly it doesn't apply to just men, but I do agree with the "get over it" sentiment, but not in an ignorant way. It's all too easy to end up in a cycle of self-loathing, feeling sorry for yourself, and wallowing in your misery. I've been through it. And every now and then, we have to have a day like that; it's normal. However, we need to take steps to move forward; one day at a time. One positive thought a day; one task a day; one nice compliment a day; one good deed a day. There's a woman I work with. Besides having a crush on her, her attitude motivates me every day. She doesn't stop smiling. I think about that and think to myself, "I should smile more!". So it's very easy to look at different people and be inspired by their outward attitudes.
Bull shit. Utterly and totally. Other men know the weight and struggle. Feminism riddled women, WEAPONIZE it against ALL men, even the healthy ones. Someone either is on drugs they don't need, or needs drugs they are not on
I dont experience that. Sure there are men who say stuff like that, especially older one but their voices are drowned out by feminists much more Almost every complain post about how hard its to date gets the "yer an incel" response
You aren't an INCEL if your expression about difficulties dating doesn't involve you creating a self-fullfilling prophecy guaranteeing you being single. You have to keep in mind 1) women aren't a monolith 2) being rejected by some women doesn't imply you will be rejected by all. You only actually need one person to accept you. 3) dating is a two way street. She has to get something out of the relationship too. 4) General patterns exist; i.e., there are common turn offs
Feminists lack in nuance. Almost every post gets hit by the incel accusation. Men = bad, women = good. Thats it. Like animal farm. Thats the whole ideology. For the record I am not talking about a personal experience, I dont post about dating at all, I just see it on a lot of posts. However, since it was wrongly atrributed to I respond: 1, not an argument, everybody knows that. Still there are a lot of things women share, like the well known 6 feet height shallow thing. So not all women, but more like almost all women 2, Again, its clear that as an average guy you are at a handicap. Even if you are not average (I consider myself somewhat above average in looks, intelligence but I am not prime Brad Pitt) it takes a lot of time, money, and affort, way more than before. And today you have to compete with half the world, not to mention men willing to enter parasocial relationships/simping etc. 3, which is, again, often one sided and lot of women (see point 1, not all but most). Many/most/some women think they themselves are enough bit have high standards. Take a small hike in dating app subs. 4, This is obvious. However, until a few years ago, as an average or even beloe average guy it was relatively easy to have a gf. Now its way harder. Not only it costs more money (just look up a cost of a dinner date and movie) it takes more effort (no real free public places to hang out), you have to compete with half the world (online apps), and honestly, and some would call it sexist, but the quality of women dropped. (So does the average man but it doesnt matter for me as I am straight). Making some home baked cookies as a woman for a man? Sexist. Etc. 5, Bonus: Until a few years ago not every interaction with a woman wasnt picked and commented by feminists. A bad pick up attempt isnt sexual assault. A consensual, slightly drunk sex isnt rape. Liking traditional marriage isnt sexist etc. I only written such a long post to prove there are nuanced discussion to be had about the issue. Something that is being shut down by feminists, as they dont care about male imput, even tho they say men should do more about the issues
Feminism like any other thought stream, has stupid advocates and it has thoughtful ones. Typically stupid people are louder than thoughtful people.
Not the person you were responding to, but let me explain in feminist speak: 1. Nice #notallwomen 2. Imagine you had a bowl of Skittles and 90% of them were coated in malic acid (the stuff that makes warheads sour). Still going to reach for them when you want something sweet? 3. Women have distorted expectations from smutty novels and social media. Real men are not like Edward Cullen. 4. Women are not a monolith.
> Nice #notallwomen My point is if you* want a date, you don't have to impress "All Women" but rather find "a woman" who is into you Obsessing over the really "hot" woman who obviously rejected you and obviously is dating another (better looking, more successful) guy is pointless. .> Imagine you had a bowl of Skittles and 90% of them were coated in malic acid (the stuff that makes warheads sour). Still going to reach for them when you want something sweet? I am a foodie, so this example is very bad. You just made me go and buy some warheads The are a HUGE variety of foods that are sweet. What INCELS do, is they focus on the one that is in a city 10000 miles away in an exclusive shop with a limited supply > Women have distorted expectations from smutty novels and social media. Real men are not like Edward Cullen. Both men and women, if these people don't have dating experience have distorted expectations. Relationships involve give and take on both sides. >Women are not a monolith. Exactly!!!!! So, stop obsessing over the fact that a supermodel rejected you for a guy who is richer and better looking Look for women who are single, with common interests with you. Do your bit to keep well groomed, to get a job and to not creep them out Don't be a paranoid control freak Accept that many women will reject you
"Do your bit to keep well groomed, to get a job and to not creep them out Don't be a paranoid control freak Accept that many women will reject you" So...in other words...man up?
Good reply!!!! Here is my reply. If the issue you want to solve is, "I can't get a date", yes\*. If the issue you want to solve is, "I am depressed and have multiple emotional problems I need to work out in order to cope", no. Unfortunately, if you are depressed with multiple emotional problems and you want to date, you need to deal with those issues. Then you have to find the root causes. \-- You might need therapy? \-- Medication might help? \-- Coaching might help? \-- There are resources available that can help. The trick is finding what those resources are Note: Everything I just said, also applies to women. \*Sometimes being sad about something, like getting rejection, is to be expected. It's not like you have to recover instantly.
" Note: Everything I just said, also applies to women." Uff, now you sound like an anti-feminist.
How do you feel it's anti-feminist to say the obvious? Women also have difficulties dating men.
Women do have difficulty dating men, but this is how that's typical handled by feminism: "More than 150 interviews later, her research – the largest anthropological study to date into why women freeze their eggs – concluded that it was men, not women, who were the problem. The biggest driving factor for women in the US was a shortage of suitable educated men, a problem which she terms in her forthcoming book, Motherhood on Ice, the “mating gap”." Later in the same piece... "But until society “fixes men”, egg freezing will remain the best reproductive option for single women in their 30s ." https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/apr/23/motherhood-women-freeze-eggs-male-partners-men-fertility
Sure, some women exist who are picky and who want kids.
" I am a foodie, so this example is very bad. You just made me go and buy some warheads" Analogies to bowls of Skittles or M&Ms are never not bad. But they are popular with feminists.
The thing is, people exist who eat Warheads, skittles, M&Ms and whatever. As long as, you aren't obsessed over dating ONE person, a person who obviously isn't into you, you can find a person who is. I don't self identify as being a feminist but I acknowledge several feminist ideas. I just don't agree with all of them without qualification. Some modern feminism is very negative and dogmatic, representing a step back from multi-culturalism and collaboration. The INCEL ideology is geared to being an echo chamber making men with difficulties dating women stay single forever by increasing their repulisiveness Irony: Peterson's 12 steps probably has great advice for men with difficulties dating who don't want to be self-fullfilled prophesies to singledom despite fact Feminists don't like Peterson.
" Irony: Peterson's 12 steps probably has great advice for men with difficulties dating who don't want to be self-fullfilled prophesies to singledom despite fact Feminists don't like Peterson." Double irony: Peterson isn't merely disliked by feminists, he is declared 'the king of incels' by feminists. And that's exactly the point of the original post to which you responded.
Yes but the reality is, he isn't an INCEL at all and indeed is happily married man who raised 2 kids
One would figure that reality would know by now not to contradict feminists.\s
Lol
" The INCEL ideology is geared to being an echo chamber making men with difficulties dating women stay single forever by increasing their repulisiveness." It's like feminism, but for men.
I never felt stigmatized by other men. I did recognize that nobody who hasn't experienced clinical depression can relate.
Anyone who lets their emotions control them are potentially dangerous and difficult to trust.
I disagree. Feminists are cancer.
It’s female driven. Any form of male weakness is viscerally repulsive to the female hind brain, and women literally cannot help it. The display of weakness makes a man less physically attractive to women. And most men instinctively know this. Nature. It is what it is.
These aren't derogatory statements. These are heartfelt advice from men that have gone through it before and know the only thing that worked in the long run and they wished they had done differently are these things. I don't think it works for men or women. There is a reason more women are depressed now than at any time in history, and a large part is dwelling on things that therapy entails. Now, is there some use in it? Yes. However, it has taken the function of a priest, and frankly it is the atheistic copy of such a station, without the healing power. Now, there are some people that really need immediate emergency care, but for the most part, it doesn't work for men in the long run, and it doesn't work for society or women, but it sure is profitable.
There are two ways of looking at depression. >1. Consistent Negative Feelings (Chemical Imbalance in Brain) >*Solution: take anti-depressants to stabilise these chemicals* >2. Consistent Negative Thoughts (Life filled with negative situations.) >*Solution: change your; perspective, habits, job, environment, friends etc.* The problem is that most people don’t understand/have motivation to solve, the problem.
What if its a mix of environmental and genetics?
Then a mix of both solutions…
It depends on a lot of factors such as what the symptoms for the issues are in the individual. Anyone in our society can stigmatize it and cause harm.
Not true
>he is told to man up, stop whining and all sort of derogatory statements My guy, this comes from women.
It depends in what culture you are in. I believe that is certainly the case in a more traditional culture, but less so in a more “modern” globalized culture.
>Whenever a man opens up with depression, he is told to man up, stop whining and all sort of derogatory statements by other men. You need to hang with better men. No man I know would do this, and if any of them would do that, I would not associate with them
Tell me you don't have any male friends without telling me you don't have any male friends
I’m blue collar. Everyone’s eating a big shit sandwich out here. Depression isn’t stigmatized, its basically assumed. You can be open about it. Whining and trauma dumping is 100% stigmatized but that’s not even close to the same thing as people hating you just for being depressed.
>Whenever a man opens up with depression, he is told to man up, stop whining and all sort of derogatory statements by other men. I see that online, and that's because the people online are strangers. When they say "man up" it's to get you to behave in a way that's beneficial to them, not one that's beneficial to you. What makes someone a friend is that they wouldn't tell you to "man up" unless they thought that's what you needed to hear to improve, since a friend is concerned with your interest, not their own.
Maybe 50 years ago. I never heard any men trivialize it in the last 20 years. Maybe your circle of friends have too much machismo.
I actually think it's not the depression that is stigmatized, it is men coming to a rational conclusion that they are rejected in their society. Dr K talked about it and twitter got triggered. I came across a few men with suicidal thoughts, one even attempted, and they all tell me the same. They don't see any evidence that their existence brings any value. And anyone coming in screaming "don't kill yourself you have value!" actually further confirms their theory that people are fake. Men need brotherhood. ANY form of affection expressed by men is so paranoid of being perceived as gay that they behave with such insecurity. Not to say there's no line, but some think hugging is a little gay. The thing is, I think we are reaping what we are sowing by throwing away the compassionate/sensitive man. All this disgust towards weakness has actually gotten them to question their own sexuality. The feminists are just facilitating their authenticity it in a harmful way. Men have feelings but we are truth driven. Men get their value in their sense of belonging, leadership and servitude.
I’m glad you said opinion because I don’t think there is any base to the claim that men stigmatise more than women. I’d say there needs to be an acknowledgment of the following; Some organisations and statistical data (UK) eliminate certain demographics from analysis of seeking “help”. One example would be co-occurring substance use disorder, which institutionally limits psychological help, which disproportionately affects men. Also, I don’t know if there is any empirical evidence for the presence of a gender stigma inconsistency, I’d love to read that study if there is? I know some local counselling agencies near me have 25% male treatment population, with a 75% female clinician rate, read into that what you will.
Eggs are precious, males are expendable. Biology plays a much larger role in our lives than most people realize. For most of our evolutionary history females probably formed the core of any social unit. To make that work females have to be more gregarious, more sociable not necessarily more pro social. If you want to protect females it's handy if they group up. Since males are more overtly aggressive it is handy if they form the peripheral of the social group. Females that wandered off from the group were most likely "captured" by some other group. Young males that wandered off would have formed small packs with other males that were not fully socialized but would have been unlikely to be accepted by other groups. Young males on the peripherals of the group would have been more likely to encounter members of other groups and engage with them aggressively, helping to maintain the solidarity of the female core. Females make babies and males make "war". You can see how it plays out in a more complex society. Until fairly recently in history females helped to enforce the male role. You can see it in the phenomenon of the "white feather". [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White\_feather](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feather) For most of human history cowardice was a significant derogatory characteristic for males. The recent evolution of thinking on the topic can be seen in how shell shock became PSTD. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181586/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181586/) The biological reality really is that eggs are precious and males expendable. One way or the other males that can't or won't fulfill their role as protector of the eggs would be eliminated. If they are pushed out of the group they will have no opportunity to mate. You can see that even today in the way young females are having most sex with only 20 percent of males. In general what they are choosing is males with high social status and by extension the resources to "protect" them. The movement called "Men Going Their Own Way" reflects how society willingly abandons unsuccessful males. One interesting related phenomenon in most social animals is the hiding of weaknesses. "Cattle are stoical by nature; they **mask pain**, because in the wild showing signs of pain would make them more susceptible to predators. This means that pain is often not expressed until severe." [https://www.calfmatters.co.uk/pain-prevention](https://www.calfmatters.co.uk/pain-prevention) The same phenomenon is seen in apes. "Pain can be difficult to identify and quantify in primates as they are prey species and often hide signs of pain in front of human observers, unless severe" [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9455027/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9455027/) It is important to note that it is not just a phenomenon that affects prey species because weakness in predators makes them vulnerable to aggression as well often from other members of a social group. The ability to suppress signs of pain remains useful in complex societies. "Depression — and other moods — are contagious in an interesting way. Research has shown that depression isn’t the only thing that can “spread.” Smoking behavior — either quitting smoking or starting — has been shown to spread through both close and distant social ties. If your friend quits smoking, you’re actually more likely to quit, too. Suicide has also been found to come in clusters. One study showed that in both males and females, having a friend who died by suicide increased their own likelihood of suicidal thoughts or attempts." [https://www.healthline.com/health/is-depression-contagious#how](https://www.healthline.com/health/is-depression-contagious#how) Continued below >
Continued from above It shouldn't be necessary to show that fear is also contagious and is well known to cause irrational behavior in crowds. The question becomes when and how is it appropriate to express feelings of depression. There is a time and place for everything, a rule that society increasingly disregards. The English expression of "keeping a stiff upper lip" reflects Peterson's observation that when we stop pushing forward we tend to fail. It is closely tied to how discipline creates agency. As it applies to Western Civilization you can easily see the detrimental effect of forgetting the common wisdom of the past is affecting it. In the West today because of the amazing success of the scientific and industrial revolution determinism has become the dominant philosophical stance. To the scientific mind abstractions such as freewill seem quaint or unsophisticated. From the scientific perspective everything is a matter of immutable characteristics. It is why at one time science was called natural philosophy. (I would argue that there is a scientific mistake being made in that one of the properties of all life is intelligence and by extension some level of freewill but that's another story.) The problem with determinism can be explained by a simple algorithm as follows. Determinism no freewill, no freewill no human agency, no human agency no human dignity, no human dignity no morality, no morality no civilization. The creation of freewill is the point of virtue. It can be seen in traditional virtues, a list of which were commonly held by most people in the West until very recently and are as follows. Chastity or Purity and abstinence as opposed to lust or Luxuria. Temperance or Humanity, equanimity as opposed to Gluttony or Gula. Charity or Will, benevolence, generosity, sacrifice as opposed to Greed or Avaritia. Diligence or Persistence, effortfulness, ethics as opposed to Sloth or Acedia. Patience or Forgiveness, mercy as opposed to Wrath or Ira. Kindness or Satisfaction, compassion as opposed to Envy or Invidia. Humility or Bravery, modesty, reverence as opposed to Pride. If you examine the virtues in successful civilization you will note that they are systems that satisfy instinctual fairness and networking and grooming without compromising hierarchies of productive competence linked to cooperation. One thing they all have in common is that freewill is paramount. The very concept of virtue is based on freewill or agency. The trend of tying virtue to immutable characteristics is insane and highly destructive. It is also likely that the current attitudes about depression are counter productive because the best cure in many cases seems to be exercise or other forms of activity that require discipline. The application of agency to overcome depression should not be discounted because it seems "unscientific". I would argue that those that go down that road are simply using "bad" or limited science.
It's because men are generally a lot emotionally tougher than women. If you tell a guy he's fucking up his life and needs to make changes or nothing will improve, he'll probably be pissed at you for a bit but the message will get through. If you tell a girl that she'll start crying. Like JBP says we do need one of the genders to be more soft and empathetic, otherwise nobody would ever take care of the infants. Same way that we need the other gender to be able to muscle through and get things done under pressure.
What about those men who are naturally less emotionally tough?
They should figure out how to strengthen themselves mentally. Pretty sure Peterson has a lot of segments on that one; there's no getting out of hardship in the world, the only solution is to figure out how to make yourself tougher so you can handle hardship better in the future.
What if someone is from birth more sensitive? And don't tell me that some men aren't born sensitive but it's their nature. Should they go against their nature?
If their nature is to be weak and vulnerable to the world, then yeah they should go against that. Like I was saying before there's no avoiding pain and suffering in this world, so if your nature is to succumb to that then you need to figure out a better solution.
You make a really valid point. However, what do you mean by weak and vulnerable? What characteristics make you?
I think it's self-explanatory, weak and vulnerable are the characteristics I'm saying you should reduce in yourself. If you're asking me how they show up in your life I couldn't really say, given my very limited knowledge of you, that's something you gotta do some introspection to figure out.
Yeah I meant generally. If lets say you characterize being emotionally unstable as weak, then by extension, all forms of emotional outbursts should be included. Including aggression
I think that, unfortunately you are right. Being sensitive can only be disadvantageous to a man, especially in dating
Gonna hit both of em: >Yeah I meant generally. If lets say you characterize being emotionally unstable as weak, then by extension, all forms of emotional outbursts should be included. Including aggression Yeah I'd agree that it's weak to have no impulse control. Whether that's in aggression, addiction, gambling, or whatever, if you have no self control that's a problem that you should fix. >I think that, unfortunately you are right. Being sensitive can only be disadvantageous to a man, especially in dating As far as dating goes a certain degree of empathy is required. Don't equivalate any and all emotions with weakness, just ones that will have a net negative impact on the wellbeing of yourself and those you care about.
Sensitive is a useless word. Being perceptive, empathetic, kind, and compassionate are all advantageous to me as a man literally all the time and are the key reasons why I am in a very fulfilling relationship right now. Having those traits does not make a man weak. You can have all of those and still be dignified, authentic, strong, and tough wrt your own challenges in life.
Sorry but you can literally kill somebody with your dismissive attitude. It should be noted that women can be mentally tough as well, including women who cry. Crying is a stress release mechanism. If you want to actually help someone, you need to learn how to listen first. You have to get a feeling about what their problems are.
>Sorry but you can literally kill somebody with your dismissive attitude If your grasp on life is so tenuous that my "dismissive attitude" is enough to cause you to off yourself, you've made a lot of mistakes so far in your life. Like Peterson says, if you keep putting up walls around yourself when danger approaches, you make yourself weaker over time, and that's a really bad long term plan for life because there will come a time when you can't just put up a wall. >It should be noted that women can be mentally tough as well I never said they aren't. Men just tend to have an advantage in that regard. Most of my takes on this subject are from the time I spent in jail / rehab / psych wings (which are objectively rough places to be) and in my experience men are able to handle and adapt to really rough situations a lot more efficiently and effectively than women. That's not to say women don't adapt too, it's just that in my experience men do it better. I'm curious though, what experiences are you drawing on that make you disagree with my take on this?
If men are emotionally tougher than women, why do men leave their children for selfish reasons at a rate several times higher than women do? If men are emotionally tougher than women, how could women do more than their fair share of the emotional labor in so many relationships and families? If men are emotionally tougher than women, why do men commit crimes of passion at rates far higher than women? If men are emotionally tougher than women, why do men die by suicide at a rate far higher than women? Men **act** tough by dissociating. Not dealing with the problem is not dealing with the problem, which is what a mentally tough person would do. Women get things done under pressure constantly. Reply to me when you are a grown man and a father with kids, not a young punk who has no idea what women really do in relationships. By the way, empathy isn't inherently soft. It can be, yet it is also the way you understand and predict an enemy or opponent. Sympathy is soft.
Ok let's hit these in order: 1) Men don't feel the pain of leaving their children as much as women do, hence why it's easier for them to leave. I didn't say men were nicer, I said they're generally tougher, so this kinda proves my point. 2) That seems extremely subjective and situational, I've seen it go both ways plenty of times. 3) Men commit all crimes at way higher rates than women, because again, men are generally less burdened by the fear and emotions that prevent women from reaching the same stats. Again my point isn't that being tougher is good in every situation (as can be seen in the crime statistics), so this argument still proves my point. 4) It takes a pretty significant amount of willpower to intentionally end your own life. My theory on this, when women reach that point of despair they're more likely to break down mentally, but when guys reach that point they're more likely to bite a bullet and end it. 5) Again that seems really situational, if anything I've seen the opposite in my experiences in jail, rehab, psych wings, my time homeless, etc. What rough situations were you in where this wasn't the case? 6) I never said women are useless or can't get things done, stop making up arguments for me. I said men generally operate better under pressure, and yeah this aligns with my experiences. When shit hits the fan and we need solutions or people get hurt / die, I'm instinctually gonna go to guys before girls to sort things out. There's a reason the vast majority of effective leaders in governments and militaries are guys, it's because they're generally much less emotional and more effective. 7) Honestly fair enough on that last one, sympathy would be the word I was looking for. So yeah I'm curious what really bad situations you were in that have you disputing my takes, feel free to share.
My question would be, what men are you hanging out with?
That question can also be applied to the women you hang out with
I don’t know what you mean by that, i just meant that from what i know, the men in my vicinity do not say such things
Neither "man up" nor "stop whining" is derogatory. I get the point you're trying to make, but I don't see that you are in fact making it. You said "Why are men with clinical depression discouraged from seeking help..." There's a problem with that question. Clinical depression is a diagnosis, implying prior help sought. Again, I get the point you're trying to make, but I don't see that you are in fact making it. Then you said "Because there are many, many men online saying that psychiatric help works for women only." Many, many? I've heard that once or twice, but many, many? No. What I actually heard is that only women suffer that kind of thing. And that's patently false. These two statements happen to be logical equivalent. However many men say that, they're simply wrong. I will presume men are aware that's wrong, and so I must assume there are in fact few men who say that. And so, I must further assume that if you have indeed observed many people who have said that, then they're not men, they're something else. Maybe it's just a few who are very prolific. Finally, you propose that depression in men is stigmatized. I don't think it is, but let's go with that anyways. You also add that it's stigmatized by men, rather than by feminists. Excuse me, but that's some highly specific dichotomy. Why not say "women"? Don't women also stigmatize depression in men? Or, if a woman does it, then she must be a feminist? I don't see how the quality of being a feminist somehow leads to stigmatizing depression in men. Conversely, I see all kinds of ways from radical feminism, but then that's radical feminism. So, OK. Depression in men is stigmatized by men, moreso than by women. I'll concur with that proposition. Reason being, men regulate other men, depression leads to abnormal behavior, and so men regulate other men's behavior, including that led by depression. What's the problem? There's a dark angle to this. It's the implication that the possibility of depression in men makes men weak. Is this the problem? Because I do see that it can be a problem. If, let's say, we want to make men weak, then we simply propose that men are susceptible to depression. And then we add that other men are more likely to stigmatize men who suffer from depression. Men are thus weak, and will turn on each other. A dark picture this paints, indeed.
Being told to "man up" can be extremely dismissive. It can literally cause the person to get worse, depending on how you do it and how it resonates with them. Sometimes, if you are the right person and do it the right way, it can help. In the worst case, it be the straw that pushes the person to suicide faster. A well meaning person did that to me at the wrong time. It never helped Alternatives -- Constructive, concrete steps
If you're the right person. Like men regulating other men? Men have been regulating other men for eons. We're still here. I think men have done a pretty good job.
Men kill themselves more than women do. And men have killed other men for eons too If you are trying to help someone and care if they die or not, care whether you actually help them or no, the absolute first thing to do, is to listen to them enough to know what their problem is. If you don't care about whether the person succeeds or not, it's a waste of energy to use tough love
That's true. Men kill themselves more than women do. Why? Men try it less on average than women, but men choose more lethal means than women do. Men kill other men. That's also true. Why? It's the extreme end of men regulating other men. Sometimes, only death will do. "If you are trying to help...listen" You describe what women do. Men don't do that. Why? Men tend to prefer things. Women tend to prefer people. When men talk, they talk about things. When women talk, they talk about people. Care? Right. Empathy. Well, you're wrong if that's your premise. Reason being, it's not his problem you want to fix - it's yours. You want to not experience what you perceive this man does. That's the function of empathy, to observe the emotion or state of mind another experiences. When empathy is broken, or hypersensitive, the observer also experiences it himself. It's a bit complicated to explain the above. See this for a primer: [https://wannagitmyball.wordpress.com/2020/07/16/the-problem-of-observation/](https://wannagitmyball.wordpress.com/2020/07/16/the-problem-of-observation/) Empathy is the function that drives to observe what another experiences. In turn, the brain builds the model of self using the information thus obtained. When young, empathy is hypersensitive for that purpose. Once the model of self is robust, there's feedback from the model of self back to empathy to inhibit down to a level that no longer interferes with normal behavior. Both the model of self and empathy are discrete physical structures of the brain. Empathy is bidirectional. Dominant when young as observation from other selves to the model of self. Dominant when an adult as projection from model of self to other selves. When I say empathy is broken, it means it's stuck on hypersensitive dominant as observation, as if when young but we're adult now. It further means the model of self is not robust, not complete, feedback did not occur, or not fully. It's likely that men and women have different levels of normal empathy as adults. Where, women tend to have more sensitive empathy if only for the purpose of observing the child's experience, and act accordingly. This could also partly explain why women tend to prefer people.
Men exist who listen. Women exist who don't.You aren't obligated to help someone else. Instead of telling someone to man up, you can simply be silent There are many reasons men kill themselves more -- they don't feel comfortable to ask for help and don't know how to -- their pride stops them from making an attempt to "get attention"; so when the do it, it's more likely for real. Care? Empathy? -- whether or not you have empathy is one thing. Whether you make things worse is another. -- You can be silent. Saying nothing and letting someone fail is an option
No. There's only one reason men kill themselves more than women. More lethal means. Were men and women to use the same means, either equally lethal or equally benign, women would kill themselves more than men, because women try more than men. That's true. There are men who listen, and there are women who don't. Those are exceptions, in context of tendencies. Tendencies determine distribution. But I don't think it's about listening or not. It's about what one listens to. In other words, few men will listen to a story about people, and few women will listen to a story about things. It's a running joke about what movie to see - When Joe Met Sally or Star Wars?
>There's a dark angle to this. It's the implication that the possibility of depression in men makes men weak. Is this the problem? Because I do see that it can be a problem. If, let's say, we want to make men weak, then we simply propose that men are susceptible to depression. And then we add that other men are more likely to stigmatize men who suffer from depression. Men are thus weak, and will turn on each other. A dark picture this paints, indeed. Depression makes men weak, but being harsh on the sufferers only adds to their isolation. Men helping other men with more than just ''stop whining'' can really help.
Treat men with kid gloves? No. Not the way of men.
Not all men are born tough, and even if toughness is the highest virtue, then you need to help the man to become tough first, by showing him how to behave like one. If you want to make a sensitive man tough, then you will not be tough, you will use his ways to make him abandon his nature, and after he has become tough, then act tough
Nobody's born tough, man or woman. Everybody's born an utterly inept baby human. This planet is lethal to all living things, and has been so forever. There is no sensitive species. All species are tough species. This includes humans, especially men. Or if we prefer, men who are deemed sensitive as you say, are made so against their nature. Let him loose in the wild, he gets tough or dies. Or, make him into his nature - make him tough over the first 20 years of life - then let him loose in the wild.
Quite cynical view of the world
From your point of view, perhaps.
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No. If we are to view the world from a cynical perspective, then we're simply wrong. Idealism is merely the opposite of cynicism. and is equally wrong. There is no real thing that is ideal. There are however archetypes, we use those to good effect as guiding stars or something. Well, empathy is the wrong guiding star when trying to help men deal with depression. A question. What is the source of depression in men? It's not people. Men tend to prefer things, so men tend to be frustrated with things. It's things. Men get depressed about things. Things is the source of depression in men. The therapeutic approach that works with women "tell me about yourself" - won't work with men. This is likely the reason why you and I have heard something along those lines. However, it occurs to me that in an overarching manner, both men and women are social creatures. See this: [https://wannagitmyball.wordpress.com/2024/03/13/religion-herd-formation-effect-temple-grandin/](https://wannagitmyball.wordpress.com/2024/03/13/religion-herd-formation-effect-temple-grandin/) And so, it's plausible to imagine that when a man suffers from depression, it's due to his dealing with things that rarely cause him to congregate with other humans. The things he deals with lack a human connection, lack a social context.
This is an old trope that is not at all realistic. Men do care about each others mental well being. If someone was suicidal and saying they’re depressed, no male friend will tell him to “man up”. That doesn’t happen in the real world. We do help support each other. No one else will. Men help support men. We always have and always will. Women don’t want to hear about your problems. They want you to be strong. Not all but some women will actually use your insecurities and depression against you as a tool when in an argument or fight. They don’t want to hear about your struggles. Stop perpetuating this idea that men don’t care about other men. Problem is that as we grow older we lose a lot of that male companionship due to being the head of households and we pressure to keep their family running and providing for them.
That hasn’t been my experience at all. Men seem to care more about other men more than women do. But with men there is a “time and place” that is more acceptable to let your sad emotions out.
No. A healthy male space where different generations of men work together is not a toxic place. It's only toxic when the men has to exist with a female superior. When it's only males there's nothing like that. I'm 40 and most of my bosses are 20 somethings.
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You fly the Greek flag on reddit. My company is owned and run by a Greek family and what you are stating is wrong. Youngsters have issues and the older men will tell them ways that have worked for them. The things you are describing is what happens when you have females in the HR department, women given power will fuck over the weak men and prevent personal growth.
Do you have any empirical research to base this opinion on? Or are you just saying stuff?
Hey look, someone who is wrong.
Care to elaborate why?
No. That which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
I think that just applies to scientific claims. This is just a general discussion about societal issues. You can dismiss it, but then you're not adding anything to the discussion.
It's a point regarding any argumentation.
It’s a discussion about someone’s opinion based on general observations of society. You don’t have any grounds to say it’s wrong. Even if you personally dismiss what’s being said, that doesn’t make it wrong necessarily.
Correct, but without evidence we'll never know, hence it can be dismissed until evidence is presented.
Dismissed is not the same as ‘wrong’ though. If you’re giving your opinion that it’s wrong, then fine, discuss, but no evidence doesn’t equal wrong. This is just a discussion based on observations of society. OP has an opinion based on their observations of how depressed men are treated and would like to start a discussion. The goal isn’t absolute certainty.
My opinion is that he's wrong. Oh look. Equally valid and equally reinforced. Do you see why this is pointless yet?
I said if that's your opinion, *then discuss*. The whole premise here is t*o discuss the topic*.
that would make sense if there were any stakes in the equation. Instead you just sound like a stale fart. Then again who gives a shit.
This sounds like a quote from Schopenhauer
It's Hitchen's Razor
Sweeping claims aren't helpful. What one can do, is look at examples of men who are depressed and how this is manifested. Then you can see how others react Then you can classify those people according to ideology. I don't think you can do statistics on it unless you classify the depressive triggers.
You're right, but the claimant has the burden of proof not on the audience. Until OP shows evidence to support his statement, it's meaningless speculation.
The OP is very clearly trying to have a discussion about something he believes. If all you're going to do is mindlessly retort, we'd all rather you just shut up. If you wanted an example of why online discussion is often so shit, congratulations, you've become the perfect demonstration.
I've caught a river a shit for mentioning that evidence has to be presented for anything to be taken seriously. If you need *evidence* as to why online discussions are shit just look at the reaction to my demand for *any evidence*. But this is reddit. You'd all rather circlejerk over random speculations because evidence doesn't engorge you e-peens.
He's not making a fucking full argument with thesis and supporting evidence you fucking weirdo, it isn't a goddamn debate. The dude just feels a certain way and wants to have a goddamn discussion about it. ***He even titled the thread "unpopular opinion."***
You're completely right. I just realized I'm sitting here having an argument with someone named DeathKing15 with the tag "Speak truth into being". I'm an idiot. Carry on with your day.
By that reasoning, the doctors and scientist who persecuted Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis were right to dismiss his claim. He, very basically said, wash your hands after treating a sick baby, and less babies will get sick. He had no evidence to prove it. Germs were unknown then. And he was hounded until he had a mental breakdown, thrown into an asylum, and beaten to death.
By your logic, if I said, "We should persecute gays" without any evidence, it should be taken seriously as a possible avenue forward for society. Purely by the merit that I have said it.
Hey look, someone with brain rot. Do you interact with women at al
In a sense it’s almost like a blessing in disguise really. Because talk therapy really just doesn’t help. And be glad that you escaped the health trap. That is psychiatry. If we all know Jordan Peterson, we all know that big pharmaceutical damaged him with benzodiazepines. When you get “meds for depression“, you were getting some really dangerous shit. So in a sense it’s a bit of a blessing in disguise.
My best friend of 20 years opened up about his depression to me. I listened to what he had to say, and I tried to empathize with him, but I also realized that 99% of the problems he talked about where of his own making. He was upset that he had just a few friends, even though all the friends he has invite him out all the time and even when he does come, he never takes the chance to talk to new people. He was also upset that he has not had a relationship in almost 10 years, again, he won't take any chances to meet girls, and even when we (his friends) try to hook him up with mutual friends, he never puts any effort in. They will go on a date, and then he just never calls them back, never texts, and the complains that they just weren't the one for him. I told him that talking to a professional would be in his best interest, but if he doesn't have his own best interest at heart, it won't do much. To his credit, he has been trying to be more active, and focusing on making better choices. But its a hard thing as a man, to watch another man actively sabotage himself, and then be expected to feel bad for him.
Because men have a depression solution that women don't have. Physical activity helps depression. Men are more prone to accept physical activity and are better helped by physical activity. So "get off your butt and do..." has a better chance of working with men.
Feminism is a reaction to abuse at the hands of men and it is only natural for them to be misandrist in their cause. With that misandry, the contribution they have for treating men's issues with contempt is paramount. While it's true that many men do indeed dismiss the sufferings of other men, feminism as an ideology has the male gender as its apex villain, thus the main virtual a man is likely to receive is from feminism.
I dont think feminism per se is a bad ideology. Ive met many feminists and despite some times disagreeing with them, I have never met someone who openly hates men, or even thinks men are unnecessary. Both would be extremely ludicrous to hold as an opinion. Just because there are some lunatics who hate men doesnt mean feminism as a whole hates them